←2023-06-30 2023-07-01 2023-07-02→ ↑2023 ↑all
01:18:13 <esolangs> [[Esoasm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=110955&oldid=110952 * Dadsdy * (+0)
01:34:32 <esolangs> [[Talk:SMG4: Mario Gets His PINGAS Stuck In The Door]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=110956 * BoundedBeans * (+795) Created page with "This arrangement tests if the input is zero without using doors. <pre> 'V0;!8+P > "Non-zero"R:::::::: >"Zero"R:::: </pre> It puts a downward arrow either at X=8 or X=9, depending on a value. The IP then mov
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01:59:37 <esolangs> [[SOAP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=110957&oldid=110885 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+616) Supplemented two examples concerning the use of the variable %.
02:00:44 <esolangs> [[SOAP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=110958&oldid=110957 * Kaveh Yousefi * (-2) Deleted erroneously introduced backslashes from the second variable example.
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07:44:35 <esolangs> [[Neucomp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=110959 * Benett0222 * (+1032) Created page with "Neucomp is short for Neumann stiled Computer ==Examples for a Computer== ===Add 2 and 2=== Let 1 2 Let 2 2 ALU 1 2 + 3 Out 3 Outputs 4 Cmds {| class="wikitable" !Intruction !Description |- | style="text-align:center"| <code>Let a b</code> |Let a in mem
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08:09:28 <esolangs> [[Neucomp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=110960&oldid=110959 * Benett0222 * (+390)
08:33:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:Benett0222]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=110961&oldid=110945 * Benett0222 * (+21)
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09:27:45 <esolangs> [[Bundle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=110962&oldid=108836 * Lanksy * (+12) corrections
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10:13:38 <esolangs> [[Ptolomaea]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=110963&oldid=110612 * MinekPo1 * (+126) /* Environment */ - I forgor to write how the value is initialized my bad
10:16:46 <esolangs> [[Ptolomaea]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=110964&oldid=110963 * MinekPo1 * (+247) /* The Ant */ yeah forgor my bad
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10:23:46 <esolangs> [[Ptolomaea]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=110965&oldid=110964 * MinekPo1 * (+0) /* The Beetle */ formatting
10:27:34 <esolangs> [[Ptolomaea]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=110966&oldid=110965 * MinekPo1 * (+100) /* The Beetle */ formatting, typo
10:28:42 <esolangs> [[Ptolomaea]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=110967&oldid=110966 * MinekPo1 * (+0) /* The Beetle */ formatting, again
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12:22:25 <esolangs> [[Neucomp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=110968&oldid=110960 * Benett0222 * (+283)
13:17:32 <esolangs> [[Badcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=110969&oldid=110839 * D * (+105)
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15:21:59 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is on fire.
15:22:02 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is on fire.
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15:50:28 <b_jonas> https://github.com/kirjavascript/quine-howto just want to put this Quine webpage by Kirjava into the history somewhere
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16:04:05 <b_jonas> `python3 -c(lambda d,f,b:print(b+d+b+d+f))(chr(34),chr(41),"`python3 -c(lambda d,f,b:print(b+d+b+d+f))(chr(34),chr(41),")
16:04:06 <HackEso> ​`python3 -c(lambda d,f,b:print(b+d+b+d+f))(chr(34),chr(41),"`python3 -c(lambda d,f,b:print(b+d+b+d+f))(chr(34),chr(41),")
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16:55:45 <esolangs> [[HGFTSNOA/Turing-Completeness proof]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=110970 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+7157) Make page
16:55:48 <esolangs> [[HGFTSNOA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=110971&oldid=110840 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4331) Rewrite
17:22:04 <int-e> > chr 41
17:22:05 <lambdabot> ')'
17:25:25 <int-e> `python3 -c(lambda d,b:print(b+d+b+d+')'))(chr(34),"`python3 -c(lambda d,b:print(b+d+b+d+')'))(chr(34),")
17:25:26 <HackEso> ​`python3 -c(lambda d,b:print(b+d+b+d+')'))(chr(34),"`python3 -c(lambda d,b:print(b+d+b+d+')'))(chr(34),")
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17:32:32 <b_jonas> yeah, that works too, but then you can't easily type it in a bash command line or a cmd command line because apostrophe or double quote needs to be escaped
17:34:00 <int-e> well, you're already in trouble with the ()
17:35:09 <b_jonas> no, you can quote the whole argument
17:35:11 <b_jonas> like
17:35:28 <int-e> sure
17:35:41 <b_jonas> ``` python3 -c'(lambda d,f,b:print(b+d+b+d+f))(chr(34),chr(41),"(lambda d,f,b:print(b+d+b+d+f))(chr(34),chr(41),")'
17:35:42 <HackEso> ​(lambda d,f,b:print(b+d+b+d+f))(chr(34),chr(41),"(lambda d,f,b:print(b+d+b+d+f))(chr(34),chr(41),")
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17:36:15 <int-e> and yes, that'll remove the escape hatch for smuggling in thayt ')'
17:36:17 <b_jonas> admittedly it gets much longer if you want to reproduce the full sh command as the output
17:36:17 <int-e> -y
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17:38:46 <b_jonas> I was originally wondering if you can write a nice python quine that uses str.replace to replace some characters so you don't have to represent them by themselves, in the style of the sqlite quine SELECT replace(s,char(33),'''')||s||'''s);'FROM(SELECT'SELECT replace(s,char(33),!!!!)||s||!!!s);!FROM(SELECT!'s);
17:39:33 <impomatic> Hi, does anyone have a copy of Esowar please? The links on the wiki page are dead and it hasn't been captured by the Wayback Machine :-( https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esowar
17:41:13 <impomatic> Quite a few other Esolang implementations used to be there too.
17:43:50 <int-e> Funny, apparently I looked at this? (I have an edit in the history) I have no recollection or record of it though.
17:44:34 <int-e> I love this take on a spelling alphabet: https://notalwaysright.com/s-like-sesquipedalian/293451/
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17:45:34 <impomatic> Filename would be esowar-master.zip (or tar.gz, or tar.bz2)
17:46:27 <int-e> Yeah I looked (`locate -i esowar`), nothing.
17:47:05 <int-e> Which isn't out of the ordinary... I may have just browsed the source code online or deleted it all after I was done.
17:47:07 <b_jonas> I haven't heard of that Esowar thing
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17:50:02 <b_jonas> words that start with double consonants the first of which are silent, a peculiar feature of English that always seems weird to me because almost all pairs of consonants used in them are pronouncable, and indeed probably come from another language where they were pronounced. I have the list at https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/User:B_jonas#Silent_initial_consonants
17:50:57 <int-e> impomatic: maybe I didn't even get that far: https://logs.esolangs.org/freenode-esoteric/2020-05-08.html#lZc ff.
17:51:05 <ais523> are there any words that start dj- with a pronounced d? that said, it isn't that common a prefix
17:51:07 <b_jonas> that one mentions pterodactyl though, I should add that to the list if it's really pronounced with the p
17:52:03 <b_jonas> you mean like djinn?
17:53:34 <ais523> yes
17:53:48 <ais523> is that pronounced with the d? I think most people pronounce it without, although it's hard to tell
17:54:30 <int-e> well the usual "j" already has a bit of a "d" doesn't it
17:54:43 <int-e> so it becomes[3~[3~[3~[3~[4~ tellgets hard to
17:54:58 <ais523> also interesting is that no English words (apart from possibly obscure loanwords) start ng- even though the consonant ng exists in the language (and has its own mouth/tongue position for pronouncing it that isn't the same as either n's or g's)
17:55:36 <int-e> (isn't it wonderful what a lag spike does to editing in irssi when you hit return too soon)
17:57:23 <int-e> (I'm not sure why, maybe it triggers the heuristics for pasting text?)
18:00:58 <b_jonas> ais523: ng is not one consonant but two, the second being the ordinary g, the first is a nasal with the same velar position of articulation as g. given that, it's not too surprising that there are no words beginning it, because there are lots of consonant pairs that don't occur at the start of a word
18:01:04 <impomatic> It looks like that website (code.forder.cc) belonged to Orby. Other esolangs on there included skiforth and trml.
18:03:21 <b_jonas> I mean there are lots of consonant pairs that occur after a vowel but not at the start of a word, like "nt"
18:04:14 <ais523> b_jonas: ng is generally pronounced with the tongue in retroflex position, which is very different from g – you get an 'n' sound as the tongue is held there and a 'g' sound as it moves away
18:04:39 <ais523> if you try pronouncing ng with the normal tongue positions for n and g then the g comes out ridiculously loud compared to the n
18:04:51 <ais523> unless you leave a large gap in between
18:05:09 <ais523> presumably that's why the different tongue position is used
18:10:43 <b_jonas> ais523: maybe they're not pronounced with the same tongue movement, though I don't think I pronounce it retroflex. they're still in roughly the same position of articulation, and they follow the whole series of pairs where an n before another consonant often changes its place of articulation of the stop, where nb can be pronounced as mb, nf can be pronounced with a labiodental ɱ, and nɟ in hungarian
18:10:49 <b_jonas> is pronounced with palatal ɲ
18:11:09 <b_jonas> this happens much more in Hungarian admittedly, but English does it for ng at least, you'd rarely pronounce ng with a normal n
18:14:07 <b_jonas> but I don't speak slavic languages that have like twenty different tongue positions for variants of the same consonant so I probably don't understand the full subtleties here
18:14:26 <fizzie> I was in Wales a couple of weeks back, and couldn't pronounce any of the place names.
18:14:57 <fizzie> On the other hand, neither could the speech synthesis of the car's navigation system (I'm pretty sure), so maybe that's all right.
18:15:24 <fizzie> It made Betws-y-Coed into something pretty strange, and did Llanberis with just a regular 'l'.
18:15:28 <b_jonas> fizzie: wait, aren't you british? I thought people who live in britain have some experience in welsh place name
18:15:38 <fizzie> I just live here, I'm Finnish by background.
18:15:43 <b_jonas> I see
18:16:05 <b_jonas> whereas australians know how to pronounce place names that come from all sorts of aborigine languages
18:16:27 <b_jonas> which I guess is more impressive because the aborigine languages are way more varied than the celtics they have in britain
18:19:19 <fizzie> Apparently the Welsh word for "out" is "allan", so there were a lot of signs that said "ALLAN OUT" (parking lot exits in particular), which was always amusing, because I've got a coworker named Allan. "Look, they really hate him here."
18:19:57 <b_jonas> I thought those would say "EXIT" instead of "OUT"
18:20:45 <fizzie> There were a few "ALLAN EXIT"s as well. But usually here you've got "OUT" and "IN".
18:21:07 <b_jonas> do you see "OUT" in England as well?
18:21:53 <fizzie> Yes. At least when it's like a front driveway kind of a thing rather than a multi-story parking structure.
18:23:06 <b_jonas> do you have "PULL H5U9" signs on doors?
18:23:20 <fizzie> It says "OUT" at least on the street side to let you know that you're not supposed to drive in that way. It might say "EXIT" inside. I don't drive much.
18:23:51 <b_jonas> oh, we just use the round red one-way sign for that
18:24:28 <int-e> . o O ( no-way sigh )
18:24:33 <int-e> *sign
18:24:58 <b_jonas> but I know the UK has traffic signs that are different from the Eu ones, and somewhat similar to the US ones though not *that* extreme
18:25:04 <b_jonas> including some yellow diamond signs
18:25:16 <ais523> entrance/exit is more common in england IME, but in/out is possible
18:25:39 * impomatic is now grepping word lists for words starting with a double consonant!
18:25:45 <ais523> also I don't think we have yellow diamond road signs in England? there are white diamond signs for trams, and orange diamond signs which are political advertising for the Liberal Democrats
18:25:52 <fizzie> The road markings I think might usually read "NO ENTRY" instead. That's a bit inconsistent I guess.
18:26:31 <ais523> you do see "NO EXIT" on the inside of buildings sometimes, for symmetry
18:26:32 <b_jonas> I don't think we have "EXIT" often to try to tell you you're going the wrong way
18:26:35 <int-e> b_jonas: the thing is, when you see one of those round red signs, how doi you know that there isn't another onme of those at the other end of the street, just to mess with people?
18:26:42 <b_jonas> "EXIT" is for when you're goint the right way
18:27:01 <fizzie> ais523: I don't know if you're still in Birmingham, but we stopped there as well on the way to Wales and back (to rent a car without having to drive all the way from London).
18:27:20 <b_jonas> int-e: because if it's no entry both ways then it's the round white sign with red border instead.
18:27:31 <ais523> also, Welsh is confusing as someone who's used to English because the correspondence between letters and sounds is very different, even though it's written in ASCII
18:27:48 <ais523> fizzie: I'm splitting my time between Birmingham and Norfolk atm, and am currently in Norfolk
18:28:11 <int-e> b_jonas: only if you take the rules around traffic signs as axiomatic
18:28:12 <ais523> because I don't currently have a job, so no need to stay in one place
18:28:37 <b_jonas> int-e: we have lots of important invariants in traffic signs like this, the most important is that if you're going straight and you had priority in the previous crossing then either you'll still have priority in the next crossing or there'll be a sign indicating otherwise, so you don't need to constantly look for the triangle or octagon signs in the roads crossing you at each crossing when you're on a
18:28:43 <b_jonas> priority road
18:29:01 <fizzie> There's a Black Sabbath (the band) themed bench in Birmingham which keeps saying "Black Sabbarh" in Google Maps despite attempts to submit a crowd-sourced edit to fix it.
18:29:02 <ais523> b_jonas: apparently they've started using the no-entry sign even for roads that aren't one-way the other way, because drivers are apparently more likely to obey it than they are to obey the "no vehicles" or "no motor vehicles" signs
18:29:22 <ais523> the latter two are kind-of obscure, so maybe some drivers don't know what they mean
18:30:19 <ais523> b_jonas: the UK approach is generally that, if you don't have priority, to have a downward-pointing triangle sign and two dashed lines across the road (in very minor roads sometimes the triangle is omitted)
18:30:33 <ais523> sometimes a backwards-pointing triangle is painted onto the road too, to make it even clearer
18:30:36 <b_jonas> to be clear, if you have priority, that's not necessarily indicated by a sign on your road, instead it can be indicated by just triangle or octagon yield signs in the crossing roads that yield to you, and those signs have unique shapes so you can identify them from the back, and they're put close to the crossing, and if there's a stack of signs there then it's on the top
18:31:04 <b_jonas> since this is hard and if you're on a priority road you don't want to slow down at every crossing to see the backs of signs, we have this invariant
18:31:07 <ais523> but yes, the principle of using downward-pointing triangle for give way and octagon for stop was invented so that you can recognise the signs from behind
18:31:19 <fizzie> UK seems to have this thing where there's pretty few explicit speed limit signage, rather just relying on the "default" limits of 30/60/70 mph.
18:31:27 <ais523> the UK markings make it fairly clear when you have priority because you can see the double dashed white lines across the side roads
18:31:36 <ais523> fizzie: it saves money on signs
18:31:41 <ais523> which is a serious expense, sometimes
18:31:44 <b_jonas> when you no longer have priority, either you get a triangular yield or octagonal stop sign, or a black cross in white triangle with red border sign to indicate a yield to right crossing
18:31:58 <ais523> there is nearly always a sign at the change, and you also get reminders whenever the speed doesn't match the default
18:32:28 <b_jonas> ais523: the road lines sometimes help, but they're often not there in small streets, and they can be covered by snow
18:32:53 <ais523> b_jonas: when I was in Hungary, the main road-related thing that surprised me is how motorway junctions worked – they gradually reduced the speed limit for the outside lane on the approach to the junction and gradually sped it up after the junction, and the junction itself was just a direct turn on or off the motorway
18:33:48 <ais523> ah, snow explains it – here, small roads will have the lines painted on them even if there are no markings elsewhere, because they're for the benefit for the large roads; and if there is enough snow to cover the markings than everyone will be driving so slowly that the priority is mostly irrelevant
18:33:56 <b_jonas> the triangle is never omitted when there are road lines in Hungary. both can be omitted when it's clear that you're entering a public road from a fenced private property, or from an unpaved road form a paved road
18:34:23 <ais523> oh yes, the double dashed lines get omitted for that sort of minor access here, too
18:34:40 <b_jonas> there are other cases when it's only the road lines that indicate something, but not for yield
18:35:12 <ais523> but normally those accesses would go directly across the (sidewalk (en_US) / pavement (en_GB)) if there is one, which is another way of marking the lack of priority
18:35:36 <b_jonas> for zebra crossing the sign is always there and the road marking is usually there but not necessarily, and it's often missing for some time after the road is repaved
18:36:13 <b_jonas> but solid lane lines to mean no overtaking are very often not indicated by signs on slow roads, only on faster roads
18:36:38 <ais523> here, official zebra crossing have a flashing yellow light on a tall pole to indicate that they're zebra crossings, but there are also quite a few unofficial zebra crossings where someone just painted stripes on the road
18:36:41 <b_jonas> middle lines are omitted on lots of roads in Hungary
18:37:33 <ais523> here too
18:37:59 <ais523> actually, there was a campaign to erase the middle lines in villages, in order to encourage drivers to slow down and not run over the pedestrians
18:38:02 <ais523> I'm not sure whether it worked
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18:38:31 <b_jonas> also my brother pointed out that speed limit signs work differently in Sweden vs Hungary: in Hungary the speed limit has effect until the next crossing (or the next sign that overrides it), whereas in Sweden the speed limit continues its effect on a straight road sequence so you might not know what the speed limit is if you're turning into it from a crossing road
18:39:36 <b_jonas> Hungary also occasionally has signs surrounding an area to limit its speed to 30, where all entrances have the sign. this used to be less common than the every crossing signs, but I think it's getting more and more common
18:40:22 <ais523> in the UK the speed limits are defined legislatively, every road or group of related roads has its own minor law to say what the speed limit should be
18:40:32 <ais523> and then the speed limit signs are put up to tell people what the rules for that road are
18:40:46 <ais523> but the signs don't normally actually determine the limits, they just inform of them
18:41:12 <ais523> but, there's supposed to be a sign whenever the limit changes, and reminder signs if you go a long time at a non-default limit
18:42:54 <b_jonas> ais523: as for no vehicles signs, if drivers disobey it and they want them enforced, they just put up physical barriers. these can range from just slightly inconvenient to enter to basically impossible to cross.
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18:46:08 <ais523> we sometimes have no-vehicles-with-exceptions signs that make putting up physical barriers awkward
18:46:17 <ais523> "no vehicles apart from buses on this one bus route", for example
18:46:41 <ais523> (this is signed as "no vehicles except local buses" and then they work with the local bus companies to make sure that only buses that are supposed to go that way can)
18:47:38 <b_jonas> also on non-small roads they can use white arrow on blue circle sign or arrow road markings or arrow-shaped green light in a traffic sign (the third one has extra semantics) to compliment either a wrong way or no entry road
18:49:14 <b_jonas> hmm. there aren't many no vehicles other than buses roads here, though there's one notable one close to here in Népliget, which has really bad foundation so the paving kept getting destroyed by the buses, but it was impossible to fix the road because it had constant traffic of metro replacement buses
18:49:55 <b_jonas> there are bus lanes, and the occasional paved tram tracks with buses allowed but other vehicles not
18:53:03 <b_jonas> as for default speed limits, they're used a lot in Hungary. a lot of roads in cities just don't need any traffic signs or markings, the defaults work.
18:56:15 <esolangs> [[Ptolomaea]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=110972&oldid=110967 * MinekPo1 * (+112) added extern. link, updated categories
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18:58:45 <b_jonas> as for motorway junctions, yes, the exit or entry lane is sometimes very short. the exit poses a problem mostly when there's a queue waiting for it. using short entries and speeding up quickly while joining the traffic of a fast road is one of the things I found very hard when learning to drive.
19:00:27 <ais523> here, most motorway junctions have speed-up and slow-down lanes which are separate from the motorway itself
19:00:36 <ais523> between the motorway and the road it connects to
19:00:56 <ais523> all of them are supposed to be like that, although there's one infamous junction on the M50 which is an exception
19:01:26 <b_jonas> a separate doesn't help much because you don't easily see the lane into which you have to enter to know when you don't collide with the vehicles already there
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19:02:48 <ais523> ah, here it's set up so that you can see the lane you're merging into for quite some distance, then are given some more distance where you can drive alongside it in order to find a gap
19:03:25 <ais523> also it's quite common for drivers to move away from the outside lane near junctions, in order to make it easier for approaching drivers to merge in
19:04:15 <b_jonas> yes, that's also why you have to see
19:04:29 <b_jonas> it usually only happens for long vehicles entering
19:10:27 <fizzie> I think there were some relatively short merge lanes on my trip. But at least they had some.
19:11:07 <fizzie> Had to drive through 11 roundabouts on the A5 when circling around Shrewsbury, which felt a little excessive.
19:11:15 <ais523> the basic issue is that we have lots of rules intended to make things as safe as possible, but often they have unrealistic requirements and have to be ignored as a consequence
19:11:47 <ais523> also, people use roundabouts as the default for everything here, whether or not they're the best option; I think they're easier to get approved or something
19:12:16 <ais523> but roads like the A5, which used to be the most important road going in that direction and nowadays have been bypassed, tend to end up full of roundabouts
19:12:40 <fizzie> Some of my colleagues who've gone through UK driver license education & tests (I'm just using my EU license, which is still good without a time limit) said they were told off for using the indicator lights when turning when there was a separate lane for turning, because it apparently just confuses people when you use the indicator lights while doing the only thing you are allowed to do.
19:12:51 <fizzie> Which is a little weird; back home you'd just always indicate when turning.
19:13:22 <ais523> my issue with indicator lights is that there are only really three things you can indicate (left, right, or neither) and yet there are often a lot more than three options for what you might want to do
19:14:22 <ais523> or, well, you can flash both but the intended meaning of that is along the lines of "I am unable to move / control my vehicle" and deviating too far from that would be dangerous
19:14:47 <ais523> (it's also sometimes repurposed as "watch out" when used by a vehicle that obviously isn't in distress – I'm not sure whether that's an approved use of the signal or not)
19:16:16 <b_jonas> aiui roundabouts are safe and fast, but they have lots of drawbacks. they need more space that we don't have in towns between buildings, they are more expensive to build than just a plain road crossing, and we culturally look down on them because they are American, as Americans are so bad at driving that they can't use normal yield right crossings and they have to use low speed limits and expensive cars
19:16:22 <b_jonas> to compensate for their bad driving
19:16:39 <b_jonas> plus they're just new, there used to be much fewer of them when I was young
19:17:12 <b_jonas> also they usually have vegetation in the middle so we can shake our walking stick at them and say "get out of my lawn you new-fangled crossings"
19:18:01 <b_jonas> another weird thing is that Sweden often has zebras right at the entrances/exits of roundabouts, which never happens here
19:19:59 <fizzie> At least in Finnish we have separate words for those mini-"roundabouts" that don't have a large central island and definitely not multiple lanes and that you see in more built areas ("kiertoliittymä", lit. something like circular junction), and for proper larger roundabouts ("liikenneympyrä", lit. traffic circle).
19:20:14 <ais523> the former in English is "mini-roundabout"
19:20:26 <fizzie> Well, that makes sense.
19:21:23 <ais523> also "gyratory" for really big roundabout-like things where the roundabout acts more like a road of its own that just happens to be shaped like a circle
19:21:36 <ais523> and all the exits act like their own independent junctions
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19:22:17 <fizzie> Right, that's a funny word. There's a Wandsworth gyratory nearby that they've been trying to get redesigned for ages, but it just keeps getting delayed with the local council blaming Transport for London for it.
19:22:35 <fizzie> I get the impression it's about money.
19:23:27 <b_jonas> I think I already mentioned that Sweden was hard to navigate as a pedestrian first because the cars stop to let you pass very often whenever you're even facing the road. in Hungary, cars don't do that, most of them react only when you've already stepped in their way and you have priority, or if they think they can't intimidate you to stop anymore if you don't have priority. public transport buses stop
19:23:29 <fizzie> Oh, they were having some sort of a convoy/demonstration about the planned expansion of the London ULEZ (Ultra Low Emission Zone), lots of cars with beeping horns and posters hung up on the sides.
19:23:33 <b_jonas> earlier, though still not as early as the cars in Sweden; and student drivers stop even earlier. this is because the bus driver or the instructor rightly fears that they can lose their job if they get into an accident that's not clearly not their fault, and the instructor fears the same and that they can lose their job if they tolerate their cars doing rule violations.
19:24:39 <b_jonas> I think gyratory is basically just the french word, but of course English has every non-common french word
19:24:39 <fizzie> Someone had a proper conspiracy nut car with "wake up, sheeple" style placards all over it, and a mention of a website that sounded entirely ULEZ-unrelated (truthbombs.me, I think).
19:25:31 <fizzie> But the gist of it was that "they" are saying ULEZ is about pollution while in reality it's a dastardly plan to instead do something else (this part was a little unclear).
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19:26:24 <fizzie> Looking at the website, it's something about how Bill Gates and George Soros are controlling everyone by AI surveillance and "Mass Psychosis And Infiltration".
19:26:25 <b_jonas> "sheeple" always reminds me of xkcd these days. https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/Category:Sheeple
19:27:01 <ais523> Birmingham had to set up an LEZ recently because the air in the centre of the city wasn't within the limits that were legally considered breathable (although it wasn't too far off IIRC)
19:27:19 <ais523> so they put charges on the most polluting vehicles to discourage them from coming in
19:28:07 <fizzie> Yeah, we were a little confused about whether that'll affect our car rental plans, because apparently it's the rental company's responsibility for the first day but not for subsequent days; the rental place was literally *just* inside the zone, if they had put the exit on the other side of their lot it'd have been outside.
19:28:28 <fizzie> (Of course it turns out to have been a non-issue, because rental cars are of course new enough to not fall under the rules.)
19:28:54 <ais523> <b_jonas> I think I already mentioned that Sweden was hard to navigate as a pedestrian first because the cars stop to let you pass very often whenever you're even facing the road. ← there can be some danger in behaviour like that, pedestrians sometimes assume that if a car has stopped for them it's safe to cross, but maybe there are other cars which aren't stopped for them
19:29:18 <b_jonas> yes, but that danger comes up in Hungary more
19:29:19 <ais523> I always double-check even if a car stops for me, which generally causes some amount of awkwardness for everyone and slows everyone down
19:29:54 <ais523> so I prefer cars not to stop unless there's a long continuous stream of traffic where I'd need someone to stop to be able to cross, it is generally much easier and safer for me to pass behind a car than in front
19:30:11 <b_jonas> Hungary can have the other drivers angry and going around and honking when the car stops for a pedestrian
19:30:56 <fizzie> We call the blinky lights in the (relatively rare) UK zebra crossings "magic lanterns" because they make *everyone* stop.
19:31:06 <b_jonas> ais523: right, and that's easy enough to signal in Hungary, but in Sweden you basically have to face away from the crossing to make the cars not stop. it's weird when you aren't used to it.
19:31:27 <fizzie> (Back home you have a zebra crossing on literally every single corner of a block in town, and people are less inclined to stop.)
19:32:01 <b_jonas> fizzie: wait, traffic lights can make everyone stops? people (both drivers and pedestrians) disobey them too much in Hungary for that to happen
19:32:02 <ais523> I think you legally have to stop at a zebra crossing in the UK, if someone's attempting to cross – I can't remember what precisely counts as an attempt, but in practice people do it if someone is obvously waiting
19:32:09 <fizzie> b_jonas: They're not traffic lights.
19:32:25 <fizzie> They're blinking amber lights that are put up to mark zebra crossings.
19:32:46 <ais523> they are called Bolisha beacons (IIRC on the spelling, I've mostly heard rather than read the word)
19:33:00 <ais523> after the person who invented them, I think? less sure on taht
19:34:07 <fizzie> There's also couple of other animal crossings; the pelican (pedestrian traffic lights with buttons), puffin (same but more modern), toucan (pedestrians & cyclists) and pegasus (involves horses) crossings.
19:34:16 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah, blinky warnings for zebras. those especially barely have an effect here, so they're only used in like long country roads apparently far from buildings where the driver might otherwise miss that there's a zebra at all
19:35:09 <ais523> "pelican" was originally a mispronunciation of an acronym "PeLiCon" for "pedestrian light controlled", then all the other variants got named after birds for consistency
19:35:38 <fizzie> There's blinky lights on almost all zebra crossings (at least in London), but to balance it out there's a lot less of them overall (because if it's small residential roads, there's usually no zebra crossing, and if it's bigger roads they've got lights).
19:35:49 <ais523> b_jonas: here, in that situation, we'd have warning signs (there's a sign that means "zebra crossing ahead", which comes with a distance)
19:35:49 <fizzie> Not sure if a pegasus qualifies as a bird, but maybe.
19:36:05 <fizzie> A flying thing, anyway.
19:36:17 <ais523> fizzie: well the name seems to have been an attempt to name it after a bird that was related to horses, but it may not have succeeded
19:37:07 <ais523> my experience in central London is that what's technically a crossing is mostly irrelevant – the roads tend to alternate between a bunch of cars that are tightly bunched, and the road being emtpy
19:37:13 <ais523> because of all the traffic-light-controlled junctions
19:37:21 <ais523> so opportunities to cross are pretty common
19:37:34 <ais523> I assume the situation is less extreme further out
19:37:49 <fizzie> Asked a nearby LLM for a bird species with a horse-themed name. The response: "No, there is no bird species whose name is directly related to horses. However, there is a bird species called the Przewalski's horse, which is named after the Russian explorer Nikolay Przhevalsky. The Przewalski's horse is not actually a bird, but a type of wild horse that is native to Central Asia."
19:38:16 <ais523> is that a self-contradictory answer?
19:38:16 <b_jonas> there's a very dangerous combination close to where I used to live. a crossing with traffic signs that usually just switch in the simplest two-stage pattern where in one stage the NW and SE entrances can pass then in the other stage the SW and NE entrances can pass; but occasionally a tram has to back into the tram garage next to it, in which case it stops everyone but the SE entrance and the NE zebra
19:38:22 <b_jonas> for a long time, while the tram moves very slowly, and at that point both cars from all four entrances try to drive and pedestrians on all four zebras try to drive.
19:39:05 <ais523> here there are a surprising number of crossings where right turns (equivalent of left turns in most countries, we drive on the left) are only possible *as* the lights change phase, because they aren't possible during any of the actual phases
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19:39:31 <ais523> and the same time period, during the change, is the only time at which you can cross the road as a pedestrian
19:39:49 <ais523> I used to use one of those pretty much every workday
19:40:08 <b_jonas> to be clear the tram backs up from the SW entrance turning its back to the SE road, then enters forward N on the NW side of the SW road
19:40:16 <ais523> it's kind-of surprising how such a high proportion of drivers get it right
19:41:07 <fizzie> Oh, that's probably the biggest traffic difference between London and Helsinki: here (for most of the crossings) traffic lights for pedestrians turn green only after *all* the cars have red lights. In Finland, pedestrians can cross parallel to the direction that cars have green lights, and drivers who are turning are supposed to just watch out for pedestrians.
19:41:22 <fizzie> So the waits for pedestrians are a lot longer.
19:41:32 <fizzie> Not that people actually wait for them.
19:41:46 <b_jonas> something like that with everyone disobeying happens in many other crossings that have a three-cycle pattern of traffic lights, but there it's worse because there are no vehicles turning but the lone very slowly moving tram, and because most of the time it's just the two-cycle
19:41:50 <ais523> ah, so Finland follows the rule that's used in Canada (and presumably the US)
19:42:08 <ais523> that took me a lot of getting used to when I was in Canada
19:42:20 <b_jonas> and there are more dangerous turning crossings, including one where I go to work now because the buildings and an overpass block the views
19:42:33 <b_jonas> so people don't realize how quickly the turning cars are entering the crossing
19:43:12 <b_jonas> fizzie: Hungary has very few crossings where the traffic lights have a pedestrian-only cycle
19:43:30 <b_jonas> the lights are either two-cycle, or three-cycle but the third is for left turns, not for pedestrians
19:43:58 <b_jonas> well, left turn and the opposing right turn
19:44:06 <b_jonas> or sometimes variants on that
19:44:14 <ais523> pedestrian-only cycles have been gradually dying out in the UK, I think
19:44:36 <ais523> we still use them when pedestrians have to cross the whole road at once, but normally junctions are adapted to have a waiting area in the middle
19:44:41 <b_jonas> there's also three-cycle where in one cycle cars go from S to all three ways, then from N to all three ways, then from W and from E, but this is less common
19:45:10 <ais523> then, pedestrians get to cross the junction in small increments, whenever all the traffic lights are red for the small part of the junction they're crossing
19:45:31 <ais523> it is faster for the vehicles; I'm not sure whether it's faster or slower for the pedestrians, it probably depends on how often the pedestrian cycles would have been
19:46:07 <fizzie> I guess there's the (minor?) benefit that you can cross diagonally when the lights are green only for pedestrians. There's even a small handful of crossings that have diagonal crossings explicitly marked; went through one of them today.
19:46:19 <b_jonas> we do have pedestrian crossing broken to two or three parts in some places
19:48:13 <b_jonas> I don't think I've seen diagonal crossings marked in Hungary, but I think I've seen a few abroad
19:56:41 <fizzie> The one I crossed today was https://goo.gl/maps/fCYgZgNLoa2hWJTJ8 but there's really very few of them around.
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20:44:40 <esolangs> [[Talk:LOLZ]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=110973 * Pipipipipiale * (+273) created talk
20:50:45 <esolangs> [[Talk:LOLZ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=110974&oldid=110973 * Pipipipipiale * (+258) oops
20:52:38 <esolangs> [[Talk:LOLZ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=110975&oldid=110974 * Pipipipipiale * (+0) oops again
21:03:33 <esolangs> [[(,)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=110976&oldid=110932 * Dadsdy * (-37)
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22:43:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:Scratch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=110978&oldid=109066 * MathigonDec * (+132)
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