< 1688777003 22706 :vyv!~vyv@bras-vprn-nrbaon0452w-lp130-23-76-65-7-54.dsl.bell.ca QUIT :Quit: Konversation terminated! > 1688777260 412321 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111157&oldid=111151 5* 03None1 5* (+63) 10/* JIT Interpreters */ > 1688777463 832447 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111158&oldid=111157 5* 03None1 5* (+3) 10/* JIT Interpreters */ > 1688780277 974558 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Three variable modification language14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111159&oldid=111156 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+432) 10Reformatted the instruction table, amended a few orthographic mistakes, replaced the hyperlink to the Wikipedia article by the specialized directive, and added hyperlinks to the respective articles to the example program titles. > 1688780331 875627 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LstackG14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=111160 5* 03None1 5* (+1572) 10Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=}} is an esolang created by [[User:None1]]. It's very brainfuck-like. However, it's not Turing complete. ==Opcodes== There are only 7 valid opcodes in , which are <,s,t,a,c,k,and >, other characters are ignored. ==Execution== Ju > 1688780746 293165 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LstackG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111161&oldid=111160 5* 03None1 5* (+1244) 10 > 1688780893 112459 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LstackG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111162&oldid=111161 5* 03None1 5* (+9) 10 > 1688780927 26572 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LstackG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111163&oldid=111162 5* 03None1 5* (+27) 10 > 1688781062 424818 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LstackG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111164&oldid=111163 5* 03None1 5* (+61) 10 > 1688781123 751768 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LstackG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111165&oldid=111164 5* 03None1 5* (-45) 10 > 1688781858 822675 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LstackG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111166&oldid=111165 5* 03None1 5* (+571) 10 > 1688782011 465242 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111167&oldid=111143 5* 03None1 5* (+28) 10/* Non-alphabetic */ > 1688783735 966826 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LstackG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111168&oldid=111166 5* 03None1 5* (+279) 10 > 1688783897 984512 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LstackG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111169&oldid=111168 5* 03None1 5* (+108) 10 > 1688784750 369131 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111170&oldid=110090 5* 03None1 5* (+1163) 10 > 1688784809 395456 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111171&oldid=111170 5* 03None1 5* (+1) 10/* */ > 1688784838 958568 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111172&oldid=111171 5* 03None1 5* (+1) 10/* */ < 1688787610 160520 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.213.148.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl QUIT : < 1688791884 498252 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot, what food-based esolangs are there besides Chef and potentially efghij? < 1688791885 476125 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: http://www.snopes.com/ business/ genius/ fnord liquid swords... and ' fuck' is ' fick' in german :) it's not actually that hard to add < 1688799692 7583 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1688801362 646511 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1688803622 718935 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1688805331 949760 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1688805442 961084 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org JOIN #esolangs hooloovoo :ZNC - https://znc.in < 1688808017 158965 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1688808409 9497 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1688808535 905229 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1688809430 404615 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1688809876 390099 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1688813201 411673 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait a moment, something is wrong here < 1688813322 172781 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the page about the Rubik Clock in Jaap's puzzle page https://www.jaapsch.net/puzzles/clock.htm says < 1688813334 93324 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :| Suppose we choose 14 independent move types. Independent means here that the effect of any of the 14 moves cannot be replicated by using only the other 13. These 14 move types can then always solve the puzzle. For any position of the clocks this can be done by writing down 14 independent equations in 14 unknowns and solving them. The unknowns represent the how far you have to turn for each type of < 1688813340 101350 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :move. Each equation represents a clock; the left side is the amount the clock is turned by all the moves, the right side is the amount it has to turn to set it to twelve. / The theoretical solution above is in general not very easy for humans to perform, but is well suited for computers. By rewriting the equations in matrix form, and inverting the matrix, finding a solution becomes nothing more than a < 1688813346 110967 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :simply multiplying the (constant) inverse matrix by a vector representing the current position to be solved. Such linear algebra is explained in the page about the Mathematics of Lights Out. < 1688813393 855852 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I don't think that actually works, because the clocks have 12 positions, so the elements of the matrix are not over a field, there's no division. "any of the 14 moves cannot be replicated by using only the other 13" does not guarantees that you can solve the matrix < 1688813514 177829 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder if I just don't understand something here because Jaap's puzzle page is usually well-researched and a reliable resource < 1688813615 793781 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I'll just write to them < 1688814710 980623 :ITPaw!~ITPaw@2a02:810d:aec0:bb2:92b:3614:b98b:bbb JOIN #esolangs ITPaw :ITPaw < 1688816400 604705 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1688817999 114692 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1688820072 689895 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: you're correct < 1688820146 741496 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(a stupid example is when you can turn each clock infividually, but only by multiples of 3 hours) < 1688820167 66505 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is there an english word "ununtiable" for eg. a knot or zip tie that you can't untie without destroying it? < 1688820225 866582 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: thanks < 1688820236 55563 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( Gordian ) < 1688820253 656746 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though I wonder if there's something that applies to the particular case of Rubik's Clock that easily shows that you can solve the matrix < 1688820277 255182 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, the determinant has to be coprime to 12 < 1688820288 455244 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :aka invertible modulo 12 < 1688820369 83532 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :of course that's not as elementary as the current description in terms of linear independence. < 1688820394 891193 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: wait, is that enough? < 1688820400 226918 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes < 1688820404 647397 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :good to know < 1688820430 652795 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the whole adjugate matrix stuff works over any commutative ring < 1688820465 356132 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :A adj(A) = det(A) I, and if det(A) is invertible, you can multiply adj(A) by its inverse to get the inverse of A < 1688820483 145944 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"its"... the determinant's < 1688820484 427582 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean I know you can just hand-find an explicit solution to turn each clock individually, which isn't hard because the symmetries of the game mean there are only four essentially different types of clocks < 1688820517 152509 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see < 1688820534 940884 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can also decompose this into working modulo 4 and modulo 3 separately, maybe < 1688820567 372642 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm < 1688820572 423894 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and you can check linear independence modulo 2 and modulo 3 to see whether the matrix is invertible < 1688820572 989951 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that might work < 1688820592 85628 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it will work, the question is whether it is attractive < 1688820596 90277 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but mod 4 isn't all that much better than mod 12 < 1688820605 682967 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :still has the same problem with not being a field < 1688820606 620073 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :in terms of human solving < 1688820624 325384 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: but you get that mod 4 works if mod 2 works < 1688820681 637545 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :in fact, you can solve mod 2, and then mod 4 with the same approach, but using double moves. < 1688820716 12970 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll have to look at how to define determinant and prove the Cramer theorem to see why it really works on a commutative ring with unit < 1688820725 875731 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which has a nice Hensel lifting flavor to it, though I have not checked whether the connection works out formally. < 1688820787 285999 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: if you use the permutation formula or the Leibniz formula you can see that the determinant is a polynomial in the matrix entries with integer coefficients. < 1688820830 364374 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which you can evaluate in any commutative ring. (Preferrably with unit for convenience, but if you don't have a unit you can do repeated addition to multiply by integers) < 1688820884 722613 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, that is probably the reasonable definition of determinants on a commutative ring < 1688820885 554975 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :in this context you'll want a unit anyway; otherwise you can't have invertible elements < 1688820905 520601 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, we have a unit < 1688821303 457500 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, and you're saying that A adj(A) = det(A) must be true in a commutative ring too because the elements of A adj(A) are polynomials in the coeffs of A? < 1688821337 655271 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(yeah, det(A) times an eye) < 1688821422 394443 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, so you just have to find 14 out of the 30 moves that when put together have an determinant that's invertible mod 12 < 1688821766 115461 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yes, that's the easy argument if you have the underlying hammers in your toolbox. < 1688822065 749055 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's a lot that I don't understand about linear algebra, but I think I have this particular hammer in my toolbox after thinking way too much about https://mathoverflow.net/a/118836/ < 1688822560 886269 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :pretty sure (D) doesn't work for [2,0;0,2] modulo 4... < 1688822618 731539 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: well I assumed that that question is for determinants over *fields* < 1688822637 410294 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the underlying toolbox is knowing the Cramer theorem and other linear algebra stuff over *fields* < 1688822638 829933 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it doesn't say < 1688822661 153939 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and you just explained that I can generalize part of that to commutative rings < 1688822730 325492 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well if you try to be that precise, the question asks for sufficient conditions for the det to be 0, not for necessary ones < 1688822739 573012 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :everything that's a polynomial identity with integer coefficients < 1688822740 170266 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but yes, I did assume it's over a field < 1688822783 430274 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the linear combinations stuff tend to be existential statements which don't transfer that way < 1688822806 359039 :ITPaw!~ITPaw@2a02:810d:aec0:bb2:92b:3614:b98b:bbb CHGHOST ~ITPaw :user/ITPaw < 1688823602 427281 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1688824144 162834 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1688824451 443704 :SGautam!uid286066@id-286066.ilkley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs SGautam :Siddharth Gautam < 1688826726 388998 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.16.119 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1688827509 694259 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.16.119 QUIT :Quit: sorry about my connection < 1688827527 568983 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.16.119 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1688829412 151475 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.16.119 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1688829501 910202 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.16.119 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) > 1688830095 704124 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esimpl14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111173&oldid=108574 5* 03Ais523 5* (+0) 10/* Program structure: commands, stanzas, tables */ fix typo < 1688831536 692643 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown < 1688831537 708537 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1688831812 584866 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.16.119 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1688832043 705761 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.16.119 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1688833855 852342 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1688835408 548326 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1688837895 121195 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User > 1688841992 87199 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LstackG14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111174&oldid=111169 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+79) 10Categories < 1688842078 176895 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.16.119 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer > 1688842112 506402 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Idvac14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111175&oldid=66757 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+65) 10Categories < 1688842167 406053 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.16.119 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1688842659 684755 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname > 1688844403 393534 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Transoptimal 5* 10moved [[02Neural circlejerk10]] to [[Implicit loop brainfuck]]: old name was bad and uncomfortable > 1688844444 790643 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Implicit loop brainfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111178&oldid=111176 5* 03Transoptimal 5* (+12) 10edit to match language rename > 1688844485 512564 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Implicit loop brainfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111179&oldid=111178 5* 03Transoptimal 5* (+12) 10update rest of page to reflect rename. missed some in the other edit > 1688844520 654852 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Transoptimal14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111180&oldid=105877 5* 03Transoptimal 5* (+12) 10update to reflect rename < 1688845233 29939 :vyv!~vyv@76.65.7.54 JOIN #esolangs vyv :vyv verver < 1688845996 803327 :vyv!~vyv@76.65.7.54 QUIT :Quit: Konversation terminated! < 1688846805 159609 :zzo38_!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca JOIN #esolangs * :zzo38 < 1688846862 738869 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1688847822 682123 :SGautam!uid286066@id-286066.ilkley.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1688852323 660064 :vyv!~vyv@bras-vprn-nrbaon0452w-lp130-23-76-65-7-54.dsl.bell.ca JOIN #esolangs vyv :vyv verver < 1688853657 895344 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1688853907 878460 :SGautam!uid286066@id-286066.ilkley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs SGautam :Siddharth Gautam < 1688854074 104766 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1688855202 61871 :vyv!~vyv@bras-vprn-nrbaon0452w-lp130-23-76-65-7-54.dsl.bell.ca QUIT :Quit: Konversation terminated! < 1688855804 294293 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1688855859 746729 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf JOIN #esolangs shachaf :Shachaf Ben-Kiki