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00:47:40 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111157&oldid=111151 * None1 * (+63) /* JIT Interpreters */
00:51:03 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111158&oldid=111157 * None1 * (+3) /* JIT Interpreters */
01:37:57 <esolangs> [[Three variable modification language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111159&oldid=111156 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+432) Reformatted the instruction table, amended a few orthographic mistakes, replaced the hyperlink to the Wikipedia article by the specialized directive, and added hyperlinks to the respective articles to the example program titles.
01:38:51 <esolangs> [[LstackG]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=111160 * None1 * (+1572) Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=<stack>}} <stack> is an esolang created by [[User:None1]]. It's very brainfuck-like. However, it's not Turing complete. ==Opcodes== There are only 7 valid opcodes in <stack>, which are <,s,t,a,c,k,and >, other characters are ignored. ==Execution== Ju
01:45:46 <esolangs> [[LstackG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111161&oldid=111160 * None1 * (+1244)
01:48:13 <esolangs> [[LstackG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111162&oldid=111161 * None1 * (+9)
01:48:47 <esolangs> [[LstackG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111163&oldid=111162 * None1 * (+27)
01:51:02 <esolangs> [[LstackG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111164&oldid=111163 * None1 * (+61)
01:52:03 <esolangs> [[LstackG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111165&oldid=111164 * None1 * (-45)
02:04:18 <esolangs> [[LstackG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111166&oldid=111165 * None1 * (+571)
02:06:51 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111167&oldid=111143 * None1 * (+28) /* Non-alphabetic */
02:35:35 <esolangs> [[LstackG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111168&oldid=111166 * None1 * (+279)
02:38:17 <esolangs> [[LstackG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111169&oldid=111168 * None1 * (+108)
02:52:30 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111170&oldid=110090 * None1 * (+1163)
02:53:29 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111171&oldid=111170 * None1 * (+1) /* <stack> */
02:53:58 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111172&oldid=111171 * None1 * (+1) /* <stack> */
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04:51:24 <b_jonas> fungot, what food-based esolangs are there besides Chef and potentially efghij?
04:51:25 <fungot> b_jonas: http://www.snopes.com/ business/ genius/ fnord liquid swords... and ' fuck' is ' fick' in german :) it's not actually that hard to add
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10:46:41 <b_jonas> wait a moment, something is wrong here
10:48:42 <b_jonas> the page about the Rubik Clock in Jaap's puzzle page https://www.jaapsch.net/puzzles/clock.htm says
10:48:54 <b_jonas> | Suppose we choose 14 independent move types. Independent means here that the effect of any of the 14 moves cannot be replicated by using only the other 13. These 14 move types can then always solve the puzzle. For any position of the clocks this can be done by writing down 14 independent equations in 14 unknowns and solving them. The unknowns represent the how far you have to turn for each type of
10:49:00 <b_jonas> move. Each equation represents a clock; the left side is the amount the clock is turned by all the moves, the right side is the amount it has to turn to set it to twelve. / The theoretical solution above is in general not very easy for humans to perform, but is well suited for computers. By rewriting the equations in matrix form, and inverting the matrix, finding a solution becomes nothing more than a
10:49:06 <b_jonas> simply multiplying the (constant) inverse matrix by a vector representing the current position to be solved. Such linear algebra is explained in the page about the Mathematics of Lights Out.
10:49:53 <b_jonas> but I don't think that actually works, because the clocks have 12 positions, so the elements of the matrix are not over a field, there's no division. "any of the 14 moves cannot be replicated by using only the other 13" does not guarantees that you can solve the matrix
10:51:54 <b_jonas> I wonder if I just don't understand something here because Jaap's puzzle page is usually well-researched and a reliable resource
10:53:35 <b_jonas> I guess I'll just write to them
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12:41:12 <int-e> b_jonas: you're correct
12:42:26 <int-e> (a stupid example is when you can turn each clock infividually, but only by multiples of 3 hours)
12:42:47 <b_jonas> is there an english word "ununtiable" for eg. a knot or zip tie that you can't untie without destroying it?
12:44:13 <b_jonas> though I wonder if there's something that applies to the particular case of Rubik's Clock that easily shows that you can solve the matrix
12:44:37 <int-e> sure, the determinant has to be coprime to 12
12:44:48 <int-e> aka invertible modulo 12
12:46:09 <int-e> of course that's not as elementary as the current description in terms of linear independence.
12:46:34 <b_jonas> int-e: wait, is that enough?
12:47:10 <int-e> the whole adjugate matrix stuff works over any commutative ring
12:47:45 <int-e> A adj(A) = det(A) I, and if det(A) is invertible, you can multiply adj(A) by its inverse to get the inverse of A
12:48:03 <int-e> "its"... the determinant's
12:48:04 <b_jonas> I mean I know you can just hand-find an explicit solution to turn each clock individually, which isn't hard because the symmetries of the game mean there are only four essentially different types of clocks
12:48:54 <int-e> you can also decompose this into working modulo 4 and modulo 3 separately, maybe
12:49:32 <int-e> and you can check linear independence modulo 2 and modulo 3 to see whether the matrix is invertible
12:49:52 <int-e> b_jonas: it will work, the question is whether it is attractive
12:49:56 <b_jonas> but mod 4 isn't all that much better than mod 12
12:50:05 <b_jonas> still has the same problem with not being a field
12:50:06 <int-e> in terms of human solving
12:50:24 <int-e> b_jonas: but you get that mod 4 works if mod 2 works
12:51:21 <int-e> in fact, you can solve mod 2, and then mod 4 with the same approach, but using double moves.
12:51:56 <b_jonas> I'll have to look at how to define determinant and prove the Cramer theorem to see why it really works on a commutative ring with unit
12:52:05 <int-e> Which has a nice Hensel lifting flavor to it, though I have not checked whether the connection works out formally.
12:53:07 <int-e> b_jonas: if you use the permutation formula or the Leibniz formula you can see that the determinant is a polynomial in the matrix entries with integer coefficients.
12:53:50 <int-e> Which you can evaluate in any commutative ring. (Preferrably with unit for convenience, but if you don't have a unit you can do repeated addition to multiply by integers)
12:54:44 <b_jonas> right, that is probably the reasonable definition of determinants on a commutative ring
12:54:45 <int-e> in this context you'll want a unit anyway; otherwise you can't have invertible elements
13:01:43 <b_jonas> oh, and you're saying that A adj(A) = det(A) must be true in a commutative ring too because the elements of A adj(A) are polynomials in the coeffs of A?
13:02:17 <b_jonas> (yeah, det(A) times an eye)
13:03:42 <b_jonas> ok, so you just have to find 14 out of the 30 moves that when put together have an determinant that's invertible mod 12
13:09:26 <int-e> b_jonas: yes, that's the easy argument if you have the underlying hammers in your toolbox.
13:14:25 <b_jonas> there's a lot that I don't understand about linear algebra, but I think I have this particular hammer in my toolbox after thinking way too much about https://mathoverflow.net/a/118836/
13:22:40 <int-e> pretty sure (D) doesn't work for [2,0;0,2] modulo 4...
13:23:38 <b_jonas> int-e: well I assumed that that question is for determinants over *fields*
13:23:57 <b_jonas> the underlying toolbox is knowing the Cramer theorem and other linear algebra stuff over *fields*
13:23:58 <int-e> but it doesn't say
13:24:21 <b_jonas> and you just explained that I can generalize part of that to commutative rings
13:25:30 <b_jonas> well if you try to be that precise, the question asks for sufficient conditions for the det to be 0, not for necessary ones
13:25:39 <int-e> everything that's a polynomial identity with integer coefficients
13:25:40 <b_jonas> but yes, I did assume it's over a field
13:26:23 <int-e> the linear combinations stuff tend to be existential statements which don't transfer that way
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15:28:15 <esolangs> [[Esimpl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111173&oldid=108574 * Ais523 * (+0) /* Program structure: commands, stanzas, tables */ fix typo
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18:46:32 <esolangs> [[LstackG]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111174&oldid=111169 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+79) Categories
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18:48:32 <esolangs> [[Idvac]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111175&oldid=66757 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+65) Categories
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19:26:43 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Transoptimal * moved [[Neural circlejerk]] to [[Implicit loop brainfuck]]: old name was bad and uncomfortable
19:27:24 <esolangs> [[Implicit loop brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111178&oldid=111176 * Transoptimal * (+12) edit to match language rename
19:28:05 <esolangs> [[Implicit loop brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111179&oldid=111178 * Transoptimal * (+12) update rest of page to reflect rename. missed some in the other edit
19:28:40 <esolangs> [[User:Transoptimal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=111180&oldid=105877 * Transoptimal * (+12) update to reflect rename
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