< 1690676972 170454 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb2+b1 - https://znc.in < 1690677052 841379 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org JOIN #esolangs hooloovoo :ZNC - https://znc.in < 1690680279 414249 :razetime!~quassel@117.193.6.36 JOIN #esolangs * :razetime < 1690680346 936887 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in < 1690680710 863870 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron > 1690681834 369796 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07So is your face.14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112561&oldid=112548 5* 03None1 5* (+2) 10/* Syntax */ > 1690681901 755820 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112562&oldid=112525 5* 03None1 5* (+23) 10 > 1690682652 678082 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-Z)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112563&oldid=112526 5* 03None1 5* (+57) 10/* SNUSP */ > 1690683487 221031 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07So is your face.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112564&oldid=112561 5* 03None1 5* (+189) 10Added my Python interpreter and change Unimplemented to implmented. > 1690684796 624658 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Goldfuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=112565 5* 03None1 5* (+1979) 10Created page with "Goldfuck is a derivative of [[!!Fuck]] created by [[User:None1]] ==Syntax== Any Goldfuck program is the golden ratio (or "phi") recited, with wrong digits. Starting from the digit after the decimal point, a correct digit stands for ! in [[!!Fuck]], while a wrong digit s > 1690684942 34943 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Goldfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112566&oldid=112565 5* 03None1 5* (+191) 10/* Example Programs */ < 1690685195 411780 :razetime!~quassel@117.193.6.36 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds > 1690685234 673433 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Goldfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112567&oldid=112566 5* 03None1 5* (-24) 10/* Hello World */ Fixed program > 1690685366 945043 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Goldfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112568&oldid=112567 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* Cat Program */ Fixed program > 1690685472 90693 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112569&oldid=112549 5* 03None1 5* (+15) 10/* G */ Added [[Goldfuck]] > 1690685528 134610 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112570&oldid=112562 5* 03None1 5* (+73) 10 > 1690685630 925609 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Goldfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112571&oldid=112568 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* Hello World */ Better formatting > 1690685685 406097 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Programming abillities of different esolangs14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112572&oldid=112384 5* 03None1 5* (-49) 10/* flag */ > 1690685769 464865 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Programming abillities of different esolangs14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112573&oldid=112572 5* 03None1 5* (+324) 10/* !!brainfeed */ Added [[!!Fuck]] > 1690685801 645928 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Programming abillities of different esolangs14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112574&oldid=112573 5* 03None1 5* (-21) 10/* Brainfuck */ Uh Oh > 1690685926 932218 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112575&oldid=112453 5* 03None1 5* (+653) 10/* Goldfish */ < 1690686149 756339 :razetime!~quassel@117.193.6.36 JOIN #esolangs * :razetime > 1690686549 733337 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Goldfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112576&oldid=112571 5* 03None1 5* (+9967) 10Added the correct golden ratio for comparison > 1690686660 956171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Goldfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112577&oldid=112576 5* 03None1 5* (-9247) 10/* Example Programs */ Wrap < 1690689151 692945 :razetime!~quassel@117.193.6.36 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1690690593 750277 :siesta!siesta@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/siesta JOIN #esolangs siesta :siesta < 1690691917 428815 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.28.112 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1690692709 594478 :siesta!siesta@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/siesta QUIT :Quit: ang mamatay ng dahil sayo... > 1690692714 924810 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Goldfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112578&oldid=112577 5* 03None1 5* (-5) 10/* Example Programs */ < 1690693184 621168 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :b_jonas > 1690693244 922709 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07!!Fuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112579&oldid=105666 5* 03None1 5* (+297) 10Added an example of the [[Truth Machine]] > 1690693374 763869 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Goldfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112580&oldid=112578 5* 03None1 5* (+296) 10/* Example Programs */ Added an example of the [[Truth Machine]] > 1690693412 764866 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Goldfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112581&oldid=112580 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* Truth Machine */ > 1690693456 326573 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Goldfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112582&oldid=112581 5* 03None1 5* (+291) 10/* Truth Machine */ < 1690693537 865539 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.28.112 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer > 1690693587 881036 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112583&oldid=112536 5* 03None1 5* (+291) 10/* Implementations */ Added [[!!Fuck]] > 1690693725 65590 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112584&oldid=112583 5* 03None1 5* (+295) 10/* Godencode */ Added [[Goldfuck]] > 1690693773 191376 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112585&oldid=112584 5* 03None1 5* (+64) 10/* Goldfuck */ < 1690693777 713501 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: you know what this is really similar to? two-prime fractran. so you can add up the increment and decrement statements and, for each conditional restart statement, know how much the variables changed since the start of the program, and that works backwards two, you can make restart statements for any difference in the two variables. the difference from fractran is, in fractran you restart if < 1690693783 801563 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*both* variables are positive, whereas here you restart if *either* variable is negative < 1690693810 265817 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in the form where your statements are restart if x<0 and restart if y<0 that is < 1690693810 872270 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.28.112 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1690693876 972981 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: ping < 1690693980 493041 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.28.112 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1690694065 652862 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.28.112 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) > 1690697695 371066 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Analscript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112586&oldid=112560 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+72) 10Categories < 1690701852 432840 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1690703551 162834 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1690703855 711367 :jix_!~jix@user/jix NICK :jix < 1690705828 187897 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.28.112 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1690705910 181958 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.28.112 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1690706044 696769 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User > 1690706786 708332 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07!!Fuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112587&oldid=112579 5* 03None1 5* (+2464) 10/* Examples */ Added example of computing the golden ratio > 1690706813 373035 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07!!Fuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112588&oldid=112587 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* Compute the golden ratio (with line feeds) */ > 1690707213 527310 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07!!Fuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112589&oldid=112588 5* 03None1 5* (+18) 10/* Compute the golden ratio (with soft wraps) */ < 1690709110 121889 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think if you had n registers with increment, decrement, and branch to start if negative commands, then you could translate The waterfall model with n clocks into this < 1690709230 182683 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the clocks are simulated directly by the registers. your translated program would first decrement each clock. then for each clock, increment the clocks as you'd need if this clock reached zero, branch to start if that clock is negative, undo those increments. < 1690709286 337003 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unfortunately you're interested in the behavior for two or three registers, and you probably need more clocks than that for TC-ness < 1690709314 635968 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah no, the construction is slightly more complex < 1690709361 329581 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think you need to represent the clocks biased in the registers such that the register value of zero represents the clock with as much water as it has after it's incremented from its own trigger < 1690709400 837184 :razetime!~quassel@117.193.6.36 JOIN #esolangs * :razetime < 1690709422 384326 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and IIUC the reason why this n-register machine may be more powerful than an n-clock TWM is that it can have multiple triggers at different values of the clocks, and it can decrement the clocks by more than one so that different triggers can be reached depending on the value modulo the decrement < 1690709525 317870 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1690709537 131077 :razetime!~quassel@117.193.6.36 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1690709543 993557 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suspect that with four registers you'd get turing-completeness by simulating a 2-register Minsky machine, with one register storing the state and another register needed temporarily to store the new PC when the old PC resets, but I'm not sure in this < 1690710236 122587 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1690710299 610950 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1690710315 464197 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1690710759 856229 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :pong? < 1690710897 216389 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(on that topic, there's still a bug in my translation from Minsky machines due to the offset tweak) < 1690710900 696171 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :also I'm not here. < 1690711431 425530 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :good < 1690711435 48590 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't see you > 1690712894 582412 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Beditasm14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112590&oldid=112293 5* 03None1 5* (+18) 10/* Commands */ > 1690713292 292955 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Trivial brainfuck substitution14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112591&oldid=111055 5* 03None1 5* (+157) 10/* Example Members of the TrivialBrainfuckSubstitution family */ Added.example of [[Scratch is dumb]] > 1690713332 310469 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Trivial brainfuck substitution14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112592&oldid=112591 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* Example Members of the TrivialBrainfuckSubstitution family */ > 1690713570 508605 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Trivial brainfuck substitution14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112593&oldid=112592 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* Example Members of the TrivialBrainfuckSubstitution family */ > 1690714381 725542 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Categorization14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112594&oldid=112496 5* 03EsolangGuy 5* (-137) 10 > 1690714494 1398 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Categorization14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112595&oldid=112594 5* 03EsolangGuy 5* (-4721) 10Blanked the page > 1690714543 628854 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112596&oldid=112595 5* 03EsolangGuy 5* (+4256) 10 > 1690714566 911980 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112597&oldid=112596 5* 03EsolangGuy 5* (+566) 10 < 1690714820 580124 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… > 1690715177 406653 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Scratch is dumb14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112598&oldid=112541 5* 03None1 5* (+918) 10/* Turing completeness */ Implement the esolang in Python and add implemented category < 1690715182 344505 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: good > 1690715337 197811 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112599&oldid=112570 5* 03None1 5* (+6) 10Formatting < 1690717644 677757 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User > 1690718192 136616 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112600&oldid=112597 5* 03EsolangGuy 5* (+41) 10 > 1690718356 841120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112601&oldid=110635 5* 03EsolangGuy 5* (+54) 10 > 1690718396 911320 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112602&oldid=112601 5* 03EsolangGuy 5* (+0) 10 < 1690719185 41734 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: so hmm did you ping me for something specific or just because the topic might interest me because of yesterday's discussion? < 1690719209 819458 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(which it did) < 1690720622 188154 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( Cool new CSS trick: type "body" as "bode" and wonder why the rules aren't reply ) < 1690720630 913846 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :applied < 1690722643 334268 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1690722684 569180 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: just for yesterday's discussion about the computational model that ais brought upp < 1690722758 734005 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :okay then < 1690722766 948736 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(thanks) < 1690723528 2254 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1690723778 216042 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.28.112 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, so this is an esolang thing I've been working on for far too long and have now finished: http://ais523.me.uk/articles/netrunner-is-turing-complete.html < 1690723800 393067 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.28.112 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I didn't finish the one for Magic: the Gathering, but people widely believe that to be TC already, so it's less interesting than the Netrunner result which is new) < 1690723866 224076 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.28.112 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is an esolang implemented as part of the article, but it's just a two-counter machine with vaguely quirky control flow < 1690723910 156656 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.28.112 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wanted to get it finished before the new Netrunner set came out, partly because if I post it during spoiler season people are more likely to see the post, and partly because I'm worried that they may imminently be about to errata a card in a way that breaks the construction < 1690724092 962125 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( esoteric card counters ) < 1690724094 587504 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :is there a list of all articles on your site? < 1690724135 248673 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.28.112 PRIVMSG #esolangs :river: so far this is the only one < 1690724150 528349 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.28.112 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have another site which has a blog, and a list < 1690724158 124791 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.28.112 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there will likely be an article list once the new site gets more used < 1690724199 772399 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.28.112 PRIVMSG #esolangs :http://nethack4.org/blog/ if you are interested in reading articles I have written, but all of those are about NetHack – I started a new site so that I could write about other topics < 1690724278 120162 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1690724371 528514 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron < 1690725002 844414 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Excess Flood < 1690725110 203581 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron < 1690726593 109391 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.28.112 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1690726610 741165 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1690727014 419242 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron < 1690731897 509318 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1690732038 392963 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) > 1690733060 672255 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fnaf sort14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=112603 5* 03Cinnamony 5* (+290) 10Created page with "Fnaf sort is a sorting algorithm that kills the data with the scooper until it's sorted properly. == Example == First let's say we have this dataset. 1 45 3 3008 We use the scooper on them. 1435 003 8 And we repeat until this iteration: 4 15 38003 Or any ot < 1690734185 208359 :razetime!~quassel@117.193.6.36 JOIN #esolangs * :razetime < 1690734341 4306 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: make sure to link the article from the esowiki, it's clearly on topic < 1690735625 918472 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I agree it's on-topic but there's nowhere obvious to put it < 1690737055 281820 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( make a stub for Netrunner, put it on the talk page. ) < 1690737079 417736 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( information hiding ) < 1690737613 764032 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but Netrunner is a card game, not a programming language – the relevance is that it's TC, and the wiki doesn't have an easy way to handle TC things that aren't programming languages < 1690737657 57514 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Just make a page and see if anyone deletes it ;-) < 1690737757 326882 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I know, it's awkward, to say the least, to go against principles as an admin.) < 1690737824 443081 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, as an admin you really want to find the best way to make this sort of thing viable, rather than doing it badly and having people copy you < 1690737859 151932 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can see an argument for making a user page for "non-programming-languages that are Turing complete", although the inclusion criteria might be awkward < 1690738084 733447 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think you can create a page for something like OpenTTD or Magic: the Gathering that isn't a programming language but has something interesting programming-wise to say about them < 1690738108 514413 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd probably just create the page and put it into [[Category:Languages]] < 1690738126 322564 :sknebel!~quassel@v22016013254630973.happysrv.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :make it a language: "NetrunnerScript", which happens to run in terms of a Netrunner deck :D < 1690738154 837789 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait < 1690738180 228583 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we have a [[Category:Proofs]] < 1690738189 368320 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's documented on [[Esolang:Categorization]] < 1690738195 406334 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( Weird Machines ) < 1690738200 185884 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so make a proof page instead of a language page if you wish < 1690738211 854058 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"for pages that prove something, or attempt to" < 1690738218 995915 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(a weird machine is something that exhibits computational properties even though it isn't designed for that purpose) < 1690738366 651884 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a proof page would be appropriate but the proof is already a long article hosted offsite, so I guess the page here would have to be a summary of or description of the proof? < 1690738986 246587 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: at least a link and a summary of what the proof is about, but if you wish you can just copy the entire article if you want to license it freely under the Creative Commons CC0 public domain dedication < 1690739035 658414 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: yes, it's kind of like how we define esoteric based on the creator's intent, so we might as well design programming language based on the creator's intent < 1690739611 952381 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: copying the article would be difficult, I wrote it by hand in HTML and don't really want to translate it all into wikimarkup – also there are a large number of external links that feel inappropriate for the wiki context < 1690739686 164479 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also for a long time my working definition of an esolang was "a programming language for which writing an improved standard library would be wasted effort", although that has a few false negatives (e.g. Befunge) and so I've started to move away from it < 1690739790 200137 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that test also failed for INTERCAL, didn't it < 1690739853 246415 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure – people did write a number of libraries for INTERCAL, they just didn't get *used* very much < 1690739885 577736 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the writing was more in the challenge of the writing, rather than because there was any plan of the libraries being used < 1690740041 827955 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in < 1690740087 959290 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname < 1690740149 971056 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron < 1690740240 281310 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: most of what you have in that HTML Just Works on the wiki. you have to mass-replace the a-href elements, plus edit the summary, details, thead, tbody tags. or give permission and let someone else mess with the formatting. < 1690740309 927183 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in particular, the h2 and h3 tags work and the wiki creates a table of contents automatically from them < 1690740371 302626 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I'd still prefer not to have the article itself there – it wasn't written in a style appropriate for an encyclopedia < 1690740400 961630 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which possibly doesn't matter on Esolang, I guess? < 1690740445 385271 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Not all programming languages have standard libraries though, and perhaps it is not always applicable (although that is not always clear), and that seems to be not specific to only esolangs. < 1690740450 99583 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also it is a travesty that

doesn't work in MediaWiki – loads of wikis end up replicating its functionality using JavaScript, which then means that the pages don't work properly without JavaScript < 1690740496 219181 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the esowiki is an encyclopedia? < 1690740522 747373 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Five_pillars applies < 1690740576 686514 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure whether it is an encyclopedia or not, but I generally write articles there as though they were encyclopedia articles, and find other articles there more usable when they're written in the same style < 1690740626 30386 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"it is a travesty that

doesn't work in MediaWiki – loads of wikis end up replicating its functionality using JavaScript, which then means that the pages don't work properly without JavaScript" => no, I feel it's quite the opposite! the javascript reimplementations are nice because I can just override them to open or close with just user-side CSS with no javascript, whereas the details tags < 1690740632 266585 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :are seemingly impossible to open with CSS < 1690740668 646527 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is a possibly unique case where the new HTML innovation is inadequate and I prefer the javascript replacements even if you don't care about old browsers < 1690740699 237473 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm… is this a consequence of the

being inside the

, so that a closed

can't be implemented simply by display:none? < 1690740722 984997 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually, thinking about it,

is backwards: the inside tag should be around everything *except* the summary < 1690740748 24829 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and clicking on the summary portion should just toggle the display:none versus display:block of the non-summary < 1690740799 955752 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but given that I normally browse without JavaScript, it is very annoying to have to deal with these things manually, especially when they're default-closed: my standard approach is to open up a debugger and edit out the display:none manually < 1690740815 377150 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: or perhaps they should have just introduced a new CSS property for whether the summary is open or not. it would apply only to elements that CSS thinks are summaries (summary tags mostly, but you know how CSS can turn any element into a table so perhaps it can turn any element to a summary) < 1690740820 458598 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know < 1690740866 98790 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"given that I normally browse without JavaScript" => it turns out that on most sites, they default to open by default when there's no javascript. this could be a problem if it reveals spoilers, but usually it's a boon. < 1690740885 295228 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd say that more than half default to open, but enough don't to be a problem < 1690740915 598518 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know perhaps three exceptions: some of the Wikimedia collapses, https://sqlite.org/docs.html , and tvtropes.org < 1690740928 399161 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that what you describe about "impossible to open without CSS" might be a problem with CSS or with the definition of

if that is the case. Also, would it be possible to just do it normally but a JavaScript code can implement them too in case they are not already implemented? < 1690740968 786684 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the point is, for these three I have user CSS workarounds to open them, whereas I would like the summary tags in https://www.darthsanddroids.net/ to default open, but I can't with just CSS, I'd probably need greasemonkey or a rewriting proxy HTTP server or something for it < 1690741025 240474 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: sorry, I'm saying that the summary tags are impossible to open with just CSS without javascript < 1690741028 448892 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :It is a problem with the design of web browsers I think; the design could be made differently in such a way that it would work, I think. This might require some nonstandard features, but even if such features are only used by end-users and not by the document author, it could still work. < 1690741044 431476 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Yes, sorry, that is what I meant; I wrote it wrong > 1690741051 493118 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category talk:Languages based on food14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=112604 5* 03EsolangGuy 5* (+31) 10Created page with "JUST START A DISCUSSION ALREADY" < 1690741148 275988 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ftr, https://dpaste.com/AUNLP2JLD is what used to work for tvtropes, not sure if it still works < 1690741202 637539 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is there a function exposed to the JavaScripts to open them? < 1690741204 302811 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ugh, am I giong to hvae to go delete a lot of categories again? < 1690741206 103734 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: yes < 1690741223 412059 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, no, that category talk page doesn't have a corresponding category < 1690741271 250447 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :If there is such function then user scripts should be possible to automatically open them by default, I think. Using nonstandard ways such as document scripts can make it more complicated then each one might be different and better user controls for stuff implemented by document scripts can be difficult if there is not a common interface (e.g. ARIA). < 1690741275 15166 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :note that tvtropes has like three different pieces of content that are revealable with javascript: some sidebar menus, inline footnotes, and spoilers. < 1690741340 855375 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I use All The Tropes which is MediaWiki and has footnotes on bottom and I think spoilers are just made by same text colour as the background colour (and are marked with an outline) < 1690741342 479621 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: for all but the spoilers the easiest would probably be to just have them open by default without scripts, and the scripts close them if they load. < 1690741404 612991 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, as long as it is able to close them before they are displayed, I suppose. > 1690741439 64366 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10deleted "[[02Category talk:Languages based on food10]]": category talk page that does not correspond to a category (and the category likely shouldn't be created, either) < 1690741487 492094 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw, I think it may be possible to recreate the behaviour of

purely using CSS? it's probably something along the lines of messing about with a:active formatting < 1690741504 775351 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: I think HTML has a thing for this, where you can mark a script so the render waits until the script loads and executes but with a timeout if the script can't load < 1690741582 804868 :sknebel!~quassel@v22016013254630973.happysrv.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :scripts can open/close

tags < 1690741632 615193 :sknebel!~quassel@v22016013254630973.happysrv.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :the usual way of building something like it without a tag is/was using a checkbox (restyled to not look like one) and making the content visible depending on if the checkbox is checked or not, CSS can do that < 1690741660 343748 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: admittedly it would be nicer if the javascript implementations didn't change the style attribute of the element, but instead changed either the class attribute or a data-something attribute, so you can more easily refer to open and closed blocks with custom CSS, but even if they change the style attribute you can do an uglier custom CSS workaround < 1690741666 743587 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Can it be done as an implementation of the standard element names (

) and working whether or not the browser implements

? Alternatively, can the details block be specified by ARIA so that a "ARIA view" might be able to display them even if CSS is not working (e.g. if the user deliberately disabled it; I sometimes do disable CSS deliberately)? < 1690741744 129381 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: browsers typically just ignore start and end tags for elements unknown to them, so you can easily have a solution that works even when details isn't supported if you just nest some other element that's supported elsewhere too < 1690741794 184517 :razetime!~quassel@117.193.6.36 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1690741975 130986 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but anyway, feel free to just create a short proof page that gives the abstract and links to your webpage < 1690742019 489682 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I probably won't get to this today, anyway < 1690742030 798570 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's useful because when someone wants to find the proof, searching the wiki is easier than searching the channel logs < 1690742053 77461 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :plus it does search engine optimization < 1690743469 115153 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder when someone will try to prove Stacklands Turing-complete < 1690743507 562809 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you'd probably need some similar crazy construction with very little control flow and only a few counters < 1690743541 583386 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know of Stacklands < 1690743542 583793 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it certainly doesn't seem as programmable as M:tG < 1690743555 645916 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Netrunner is very short on counters but the control flow isn't too bad < 1690743674 295068 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think Stacklands might have the problem where it can't have unlimited storage without player interaction < 1690743709 865729 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and you certainly can't restrict player interaction, unlike M:tG, so you probably want something that's TC when the player doesn't do anything < 1690743764 663811 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the Netrunner proof has a lot of actions by players, but it's set up so that doing the "wrong action" either causes you to immediately lose, or else comes to the same thing as the right action < 1690743772 254245 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and a description of what the "right action" is is very simple) < 1690743800 100730 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean it can't expand its storage space by unlimited amounts without player interaction after the player sets up some starting space < 1690743805 40688 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :s/starting space/starting state/ < 1690743846 109312 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, that's painful < 1690743849 58454 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: right, but I don't think you can restrict the player that way either in Stacklands, at least not until you're in a state that's simply unwinnable < 1690743910 775084 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe the Stacklands devs have people interested too and add features useful for programming in a future expansion. < 1690743950 310435 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can certainly do that in a way that the features are still legitimate gameplay features as well < 1690743973 941088 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because accidental TCness is easy < 1690744008 718891 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :alas, despite that the name of the game has "Stack" in it, I think you'll only get a counter machine, not a directly usable stack in the programming sense < 1690744027 266915 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is a Netrunner card spoiled this week that made me start wondering whether one of the Netrunner card designers is trying to make it Turing-complete (even though I didn't end up using it) < 1690744030 72310 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which means you'll have an exponential slowdown at least, double exponential if you're unfortunate < 1690744086 235582 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the Netrunner construction may be triple-exponential compared to a Turing-machine? it uses a two-stack machine to emulate another two-stack machine with the 2**x × 3**x construction < 1690744108 179577 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I'm not sure whether two-stack machines can emulate Turing machines faster than double-exponentially < 1690744136 738212 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(just getting a working multiply and divide by 2 and 3 was hard enough, I couldn't immediately find a way to get 5 working too) < 1690744297 319097 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :triple exponential? nice < 1690744409 770385 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that also shows how much more programmable M:tG is < 1690744420 99553 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :emulating a two-stack machine with another two-stack machine, and encoding the stacks into one stack rather than just using the two individually, is the sort of thing that you wouldn't really expect to have to do in a proof < 1690744451 289152 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :later games learned from M:tG and reduced some of the crazyness < 1690744510 474723 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that it might potentially be avoidable, but there doesn't seem to be an easy way to do that – Netrunner doesn't have very many usable counters and the proof as it's written uses the third-most-usable counter purely by adding it to the other two, one of which is only finitely large and wraps < 1690744546 308026 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(because it's used as the instruction pointer most of the time, not because the game rules limit it) < 1690744595 882612 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw, I have wondered whether Yu-Gi-Oh! is Turing-complete, but don't know the game well enough to tell; I suspect not because it has finite limits on most things and the rest are hard to test for < 1690744639 494921 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, well, creating an infinite loop in Yu-Gi-Oh! is actually against the rules so it wouldn't be TC, the language would be total but contain a termination tester, which is a weird combination of features < 1690744673 95940 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and if an infinite loop is created but not by a player, the "card most responsible for the loop" gets destroyed – good luck formalizing that!) < 1690744754 210819 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :eh, the M:tG infinity rules are already difficult to formalize, though only part of that is innate computational problems and part is that the comprehensive rules doesn't define them accurately enough < 1690744786 301085 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the online simulators seem to implement the loop rules as "if more than X actions occur without player input, then either it's an illegal loop and the player couldn't do that thing, or if a player wasn't responsible, arbitrarily pick some card involved in the loop and destroy that" < 1690744839 704046 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I actually think the M:tG infinity rules are very simple, just badly written – a loop occurs when it creates an infinitely repeating sequence of actions, as in the same actions happen in the same order each time round the loop < 1690744883 410025 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I expect such loops are fairly easy to detect and prove infinite or non-infinite, because anything that's complex enough to be hard to prove would probably cause the actions to not be a perfectly repeating sequence < 1690744892 451880 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, the online simulators not only don't try solve uncomputable problems, they also won't let you allocate unlimited amounts of memory even in programs that clearly halt < 1690744919 181786 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if your construction is triple exponential then that will be a relevant limitation < 1690744958 847372 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it isn't, you won't actually reach the large numbers before you get bored / the game times out / your connection breaks < 1690744963 929871 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: oh, is that how you interpret the loop rules in M:tG? that's very different from how I interpreted them < 1690744983 837804 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: sure, then it's a time limitation rather than a space limitation < 1690744984 536266 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it isn't how I *initially* interpreted them, but I came to that conclusion after discussing with some very high-level judges < 1690744992 413372 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see < 1690745032 435625 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so what happens in M:tG if you create an infinite loop in the programming sense that isn't breakable by the players but isn't a loop in that rules sense? < 1690745074 636524 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you have to play through the steps of the loop – it is possible you will get a slow play penalty for not progressing the game, if you have an alternative, but the details on that seem somewhat fuzzy < 1690745079 31689 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel like that shouldn't be too hard if you do it deliberately < 1690745111 975253 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I believe Pokemon card is not Turing complete because it only has finite memory (e.g. you cannot add more counters on a stack of cards than the HP of its highest evolution, the number of areas where cards may be placed is limited, and I think the cards are designed to ensure that nothing can (except with coin tosses, maybe) make the game go on forever anyways). < 1690745113 37498 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is a well-known ruling that if there's a probabilistic loop, i.e. the gamestate can repeat but only with a certain probability, you can only go around the loop once and then you get a slow play penalty if you continue < 1690745122 960717 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, so either it's a penalty or one of the players will eventually concede to real world matters? < 1690745150 522958 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have not seen that "well-known ruling", as far as I can remember? < 1690745170 787227 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or a judge will force them to concede to real world matters I guess < 1690745214 799420 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: I am looking for it but my Internet is being very slow; the ruling was made famous by a deck called "Four Horsemen", you might have luck searching for that < 1690745258 87144 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I am trying to search for it, but Internet issues are making that difficult) < 1690745284 281539 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ooh < 1690745289 639436 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :@google magic the gathering four horsemen ruling < 1690745304 834596 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :Plugin `search' failed with: <> < 1690745315 50843 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh come on, it's being slow for lambdabot too? :-D < 1690745347 909027 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suspect the host is blocked, but the command bitrotted anyway. < 1690745392 971727 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(extracting a useful reply from the megaton load of html that google replies with these days is not easy, and it's a moving target) > 1690745446 604998 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Revapp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112605&oldid=110907 5* 03Abo-Junghichi 5* (+7) 10/* Example */ < 1690745470 355767 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :of course the loops that come up in typical games are simpler, either they just clearly trigger the M:tG loop rules, like three Faceless Butchers, or it's breakable by a player and also clearly a win for the player who so usually either the other player concedes or the player who sets it up just goes on to win (though possibly quite slowly) < 1690745551 869982 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :by the way, I wonder if M:tG made Banishing Light and lots of similar cards to replace Oblivion Ring not only to reduce rules difficulties for casual players, but also to reduce the chance of loops by making the card able to exile only permanents controlled by an opponent < 1690745589 990448 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think preventing the loop was possibly intentional < 1690745596 222372 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there were at least two rules difficulties with O-Ring and Journey to Nowhere that tripped us up as casuals < 1690745696 414073 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one is that the target permanent remains permanently exiled if the O-Ring is destroyed before the etb trigger resolves, and istr the rules bulletin or something explicitly said that this is why they introduced the new exile-until template, < 1690745718 709962 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the other is how the O-Ring behaves in multiplayer when the controller of the O-Ring leaves the game < 1690745803 938031 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: https://blogs.magicjudges.org/telliott/2012/11/02/horsemyths/ is a description of the randomized/non-deterministic loop situation, with respect to the Four Horsemen deck < 1690745928 533025 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I don't understand, what card adds the randomness? < 1690745944 229540 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Emrakul, the Aeons Torn < 1690745946 158153 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it shuffles the deck < 1690745968 701009 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the combo only works if it mills certain cards in the correct order, but it's an infinite mill combo < 1690745985 21335 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so in theory, if you mill them in the wrong order you just mill to Emrakul and try again < 1690745988 675660 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah < 1690746052 752359 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in the infinite hit point deck that I built, I do shuffle cards back to my deck, but their order doesn't matter much except perhaps in how quickly I win. I don't shuffle more than once. < 1690746073 51187 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, it could matter in whether I win if the opponent has a way to kill me despite the infinite hit points < 1690746076 421414 :SGautam!uid286066@id-286066.ilkley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs SGautam :Siddharth Gautam < 1690746104 989717 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the rule is just that if the same gamestate randomly occurs twice in a loop that has random effects – where "same" only counts parts of the gamestate that are actually relevant to the loop – you have to stop there and not continue < 1690746126 958018 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and two different shuffled versions of the same cards are considered to be the same for judging purposes, if nobody knows which order the cards are in) < 1690746149 701955 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :with infect most likely < 1690746228 521233 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or also poisonous, because that's what they put on Virulent sliver < 1690746240 511848 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah right, that was in Future Sight, it precedes infect < 1690746275 756067 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :poisonous was finally released as a non-futureshifted ability, but it was renamed to toxic and the mechanics were changed very slightly (poisonous is a trigger, toxic doesn't use the stack) < 1690746306 636721 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which means that Virulent Sliver and Snake Cult Initiation didn't get errata'ed to have toxic, and were left with the old keyword < 1690746309 334552 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: makes sense, the other half of infect was turned to wither < 1690746324 309944 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wither came before infect < 1690746326 267203 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: sure, same as all the old non-lifelink cards < 1690746331 997921 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, infect is boosted by pump spells and toxic isn't > 1690746358 330106 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112606&oldid=112585 5* 03Abo-Junghichi 5* (-32) 10/* Revapp */ < 1690746377 145575 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see, toxic gives one poison counter and also normal health damage < 1690746444 145982 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and you're right, wither was much earlier, in Shadowmoor, then infect in Scars of Mirroding from the phyrexians < 1690746504 467364 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am pretty familiar with Virulent Sliver because it was one of the most important cards in the best deck I ever built < 1690746538 523465 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(which basically worked like "combo elves" from Legacy, but in Ravnica–Time Spiral standard using Slivers instead of Elves) < 1690746581 605345 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because this was Standard not Legacy, you couldn't viably win on turn 3, so the Virulent Slivers existed as a) a distraction that the opponents would have to deal with to not get aggroed to death and b) for their mana cost, which was important for the combo < 1690746655 569203 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Shadowmoor and Eventide introduced Wither, Persist, and Undying, creatures that etb with -1/-1 counters, which can interact in funny ways < 1690746731 707906 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name Kitchen Finks < 1690746733 920735 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Kitchen Finks \ 1(g/w)(g/w) \ Creature -- Ouphe \ 3/2 \ When Kitchen Finks enters the battlefield, you gain 2 life. \ Persist (When this creature dies, if it had no -1/-1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a -1/-1 counter on it.) \ SHM-U, MMA-U < 1690746745 299493 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that was played in Modern as part of a 2-card combo, but I forget what the other card was < 1690746758 946966 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it put +1/+1 counters on the Finks when it ETBed, giving you infinite sacrifices < 1690746773 600436 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or possibly prevented the -1/-1 counters being placed < 1690746817 861041 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I recalled that there was a sliver that gives poison counters because I played against sliver decks, but didn't remember the specifics < 1690746827 824579 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it wasn't the most relevant sliver card in those decks > 1690746953 199796 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Kmojzo 5* 10New user account < 1690746997 455865 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: the tournament one that I remember is Vampire Hexmage from Zendikar plus Dark Depths from Coldsnap, but that doesn't have to do with +1/+1 or -1/-1 counters < 1690747178 722718 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: here's another article about the Four Horsemen incident: https://articles.starcitygames.com/articles/indefinite-infinite-loops-at-scg-legacy-open-la/ < 1690747191 513458 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but there was also a casual combo with actual persist that I played in M:tG vanishing three-card blind at https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?500660&p=21773784#post21773784 : < 1690747201 293098 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: that one is still played in Legacy, although mostly using a newer combo half instead < 1690747207 117800 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name Thespian's Stage < 1690747208 384940 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Thespian's Stage \ Land \ {T}: Add {C}. \ {2}, {T}: Thespian's Stage becomes a copy of target land and gains this ability. \ GTC-R < 1690747224 337180 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that was a special rules round where every creature was given persist by the rules < 1690747300 184018 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: ah nice < 1690747358 757479 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1690747455 735832 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :both halves of the combo are lands, which makes it difficult to directly interact with (although many Legacy decks contain removal spells that work on an indestructable 20/20) < 1690747496 817491 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :makes sense < 1690748340 213285 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.64.116 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1690749530 171511 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1690749552 635457 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net JOIN #esolangs m5zs7k :m5zs7k < 1690749579 512859 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: "Rather than coming from randomised booster packs, Netrunner cards are purchased as sets whose contents are known in advance" => that's also true in practice in the constructed formats of M:tG. presumably when you consider computational complexity, you aren't playing limited formats like draft from a single-block. < 1690749623 640980 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it does make a difference in that the prices of cards don't differ so much from each other < 1690749662 859832 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there aren't cards that you'd want in your deck but are way too expensive < 1690749793 88348 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… > 1690750267 937475 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:B jonas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112607&oldid=109725 5* 03B jonas 5* (+192) 10/* Todo */ < 1690752006 862640 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1690753064 33104 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1690756679 117373 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1690757671 790392 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1690758536 95570 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1690759412 373669 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… > 1690760635 503862 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03 5* 10New user account > 1690761101 428879 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=112608&oldid=112555 5* 03 5* (+160) 10