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03:33:21 <int-e> I'm still the only one playing the Shapez Puzzle DLC here, aren't I?
03:49:28 <zzo38> I don't know, but I am one who doesn't, so maybe.
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06:49:04 <esolangs> [[Talk:Multidodecagony]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=115693 * * (+71) Created page with "When g command is a stack command and when it's a control flow command?"
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10:11:39 <esolangs> [[Dead fish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=115694 * None1 * (+1888) Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=><x>}} ><x> is a 2D esolang created by [[User:None1]], it is a cross between [[Deadfish]] and [[Fish|><>]], but the <code>i</code> command in ><> is <code>l</code> in ><x>. ==Commands== {| class="wikitable" |+ Commands in ><x> |- ! Command !! Meaning
10:11:56 <esolangs> [[Dead fish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=115695&oldid=115694 * None1 * (+0)
10:12:55 <esolangs> [[Dead fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=115696&oldid=115695 * None1 * (+67) /* Examples */
10:15:24 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=115697&oldid=115635 * None1 * (+21) /* Non-alphabetic */ Added [[Dead fish|><x>]]
10:16:26 <esolangs> [[Dead fish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=115698&oldid=115696 * None1 * (-9) /* Commands */
10:20:25 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=115699&oldid=115636 * None1 * (+88) /* My Esolangs */
10:27:22 <esolangs> [[Dead fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=115700&oldid=115698 * None1 * (+744) /* Examples */ Added more examples
10:29:56 <esolangs> [[Dead fish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=115701&oldid=115700 * None1 * (-1) /* Count forwards from 1 to 100 */
10:31:26 <esolangs> [[Dead fish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=115702&oldid=115701 * None1 * (+8) /* Commands */
10:57:25 <esolangs> [[Dead fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=115703&oldid=115702 * None1 * (+1346) Added C++ interpreter and implemented category tag
10:57:43 <esolangs> [[Dead fish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=115704&oldid=115703 * None1 * (+0) /* C++ */
11:06:08 <esolangs> [[C++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=115705 * None1 * (+233) Created page with "{{Serious}} C++, while not always a serious language, is far from an esoteric one, it is created by Bjarne Stroustrup in 1979 and it is an extension of C. It's object oriented and compilant. It's often used to ''implement'' esolangs."
11:06:19 <esolangs> [[C++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=115706&oldid=115705 * None1 * (+1)
11:07:54 <esolangs> [[Dead fish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=115707&oldid=115704 * None1 * (+4) /* C++ */
11:08:21 <esolangs> [[Brain-Flak]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=115708&oldid=115370 * None1 * (+25) /* External resources */
11:08:40 <esolangs> [[ErrorFullC++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=115709&oldid=114259 * None1 * (+4)
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11:14:35 <esolangs> [[NH3]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=115710 * None1 * (+1428) Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=NH<sub>3</sub>}} NH<sub>3</sub> is an esolang by [[User:None1]] and inspired by [[HQ9+]]. ==Commands== <code>N</code>: Do nothing. <code>H</code>: Outputs <code>Hello World!</code> <code>3</code>: Outputs the lyrics of "3 bottles of beer", which is as fol
11:15:01 <esolangs> [[NH3]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=115711&oldid=115710 * None1 * (+3) /* Commands */
11:16:34 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=115712&oldid=115575 * None1 * (+1) /* General languages */
11:16:57 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=115713&oldid=115712 * None1 * (+25) /* Example-based languages */
11:17:30 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=115714&oldid=115699 * None1 * (+44) /* My Esolangs */
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12:15:31 <arseniiv> b_jonas: thanks for pointing me to GML, also your suggestions of using Y combinator made me think twice about some things; in the end I’m at least settled that adding binders is pretty okay, and had a couple of other ideas!
12:16:02 <arseniiv> so that I even didn’t dive into Olvasható much after that
12:16:17 <arseniiv> :D
12:18:34 <arseniiv> also a general question: how do we go here these days about offline messages? (Except reading the logs.) IIRC there was something with lambdabot a couple years ago, or something
12:19:55 <arseniiv> <arseniiv> @tell me why <lambdabot> Consider it noted. => oh no I made a mistake
12:20:05 <b_jonas> arseniiv: dunno, mostly just logreading I think, or contact outside of irc
12:20:29 <arseniiv> as usual then :)
12:21:16 <b_jonas> int-e: yes. I'm reading the Factorio news, where the developers tell us something interesting about what will be in the expansion pack. they promise one article per week until release, and the release is about a year from now, so that's 50 to 400 articles depending on how good they are at estimating how long the development takes.
12:21:31 <b_jonas> so far there's been three articles and they've been causing LOTS of internet discussion
12:21:44 <arseniiv> BTW will Y usage make the call stack grow without bound? I think either I need to add markers to optimize tail recursion or I just need not to use recursion after all
12:21:59 <b_jonas> arseniiv: note that the log reading is fragile to depend on because right now only fizzie's bot makes public logs, nobody else does
12:22:45 <arseniiv> b_jonas: yeah also it’s quite unhandy should I say. But still, having logs is way better than not having them ofc
12:22:56 <b_jonas> arseniiv: you definitely should optimize tail recursion, you need that even if you don't have to resort to Y combinator because you have eg. mutable binding or at least letrec
12:23:47 <b_jonas> unless of course you add some built-in to loop and use that
12:24:37 <b_jonas> I mean technically you could perhaps write your program in a much more complicated way (perhaps through an interpreter) so it takes up only logarithmic stack space even without tail recursion optimized, but that sounds like too much unnecessary extra work
12:25:36 <arseniiv> hmm
12:26:30 <b_jonas> you can send messages on the esowiki, email, or other forums that aren't specifically about esolangs
12:28:14 <arseniiv> the thing about adding loop as a primitive is that I already have a primitive effect handlers that behave similarly in call stack, but I just can’t figure it out (well, actually I was lazy to think about it too much) how to make loops with that. Now, with bindings, I should really look into that once more
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13:03:32 <b_jonas> I guess I can point to underload too, you need a Y-combinator construction to make loops in it as well, only the : primitive makes that quite easy
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16:10:20 <esolangs> [[Dead fish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=115715&oldid=115707 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35) Distinguish confusion
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17:35:21 <esolangs> [[Rhokell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=115716&oldid=115418 * Pro465 * (+827) update syntax + explanation
17:44:31 <esolangs> [[Strucked]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=115717&oldid=81289 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+65) WIP, categories
17:45:43 <esolangs> [[Rhokell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=115718&oldid=115716 * Pro465 * (+371) add infobox
17:48:28 <esolangs> [[Rhokell]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=115719&oldid=115718 * Pro465 * (+74) add more category
18:05:24 <int-e> arseniiv: what's a stack when you're rewriting lambda terms... ;-)
18:06:05 <int-e> b_jonas: I still don't really care about Factorio. I've found another puzzle that I can cheese but not solve properly. Though what I have comes close...
18:06:06 <arseniiv> int-e: that’s why I was shy of adding bindings. I’m still a bit on the fence
18:07:10 <int-e> Note that as per usual I probably lack relevant context.
18:07:55 <arseniiv> right now I’m exactly staring at my code and trying to decide if I want to rewrite it today or later. Some refactoring is long due and it’s necessary if I’m adding bindings
18:09:05 <arseniiv> int-e: b_jonas himself noted above that λ calculus is very cheap to translate into such a language, so you don’t miss much
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18:10:23 <arseniiv> somehow there is no trace of replacing subterms though. Because of that, this stacky disguise looks cleaner
18:10:57 <arseniiv> though maybe when I’m up to writing actual code I’d see that things are harder than I thought
18:25:07 <int-e> Hmm have you shared a full description of the language and/or an interpreter? I've found https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2023-09-05.html#lpb but I feel it's not detailled enough (and somewhat inconsistent... for example, which part, if any, of `quote handler HANDLE` is the tag that `RAISE` looks for?)
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18:50:57 <b_jonas> int-e: I think he doesn't have a full description yet, he's still trying to invent a language
18:51:29 <b_jonas> int-e: have you played Mindustry?
18:52:22 <int-e> nope
18:53:49 <b_jonas> int-e: also by the way, more is revealed about shapez 2 now, there's some beta-testing footage or such like, and from the little I've seen it's just as boring as I expected
18:57:00 <int-e> I didn't have too high hopes for it to begin with.
19:02:16 <int-e> I'm not sure what I want in this kind of game yet... I don't like the defense aspect of Factorio (and apparently even more so in Mindustry), though adapting designs to a landscape may have its charm. You can make producing stuff harder but shapez already goes pretty hard in that direction. (try assembling this shape: https://viewer.shapez.io/?Cu------:CuCu----:----Cu--:CuCu----)
19:02:47 <int-e> ah, forgot the space before the closing parenthesis
19:04:41 <int-e> There's some fun in scaling things up, but even that is limited. You can go 3D, as Infinifactory did...
19:05:46 <int-e> But Shapez 2 looks that while it's 3D rendered, the basic shapes are still the same; their focus seems to be 3D rendering and scaling things up, and maybe having multiple layers?
19:05:52 * int-e shrugs
19:07:43 <int-e> Actually zachtronics has found some *interesting* variety in this genre, by focussing on production processes rather than scaling things up.
19:08:22 <int-e> This is a personal preference of course; I like puzzle games more than "big" games.
19:11:08 <b_jonas> int-e: you can play Factorio without enemies, which is what I do. then there's no defense aspect. (that doesn't work in Mindustry.)
19:13:07 <b_jonas> yes, that shape looks hard to make.
19:15:24 <int-e> It's one of the shapes that comes up at depth 9 when starting with full slices.
19:16:10 <int-e> Anyway the puzzle I'm pondering is this, https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-fly-up-high.png with this almost solution that is good enough for cheesing it: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-fly-up-high-spoiler.png
19:17:08 <int-e> (the process is simple... paint the small square, then stack up four slices in the right order.)
19:19:37 <int-e> ("cheese" - you only have to deliver 10 items to the sink at 1/4 belt rate to solve this level, so you can buffer them up and then switch a belt over for delivery)
19:25:44 <int-e> The cutest puzzle so far though was this one, truly out of the box: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-impossible.png
19:26:46 <int-e> (Funnily that screenshot is not a spoiler. You have to fight the belt editor to prevent the belts from magically connecting to a red input.)
19:27:12 <int-e> So... it managed to turn what is really a constant nuisance in the game... into a puzzle.
19:28:09 <b_jonas> int-e: ah yes, I met that when I was building the space-filling curve shaped museum for freeplay shapes. it's a fractal, so you'd think you just have to select all you have so far, rotate, paste, and repeat this. it's much harder than that.
19:28:41 <b_jonas> if I had known in advance then I'd have chosen a different fractal shape that doesn't cause that problem
19:29:22 <int-e> b_jonas: well, there's two issues... one is the belt magic; the other is that you need a copy of the square with the belt going in the opposite direction
19:30:09 <int-e> (I have made a Hilbert curve myself because it looked like a fun little exercise. It was. I haven't used it for anyhting.)
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22:59:36 <arseniiv> int-e: yeah there’s no nice description yet. The tag is inside a handler which is a special data structure looking like an abstracted matching clause
23:02:53 <arseniiv> like {tag1: quote1, tag2: quote2, …, default: quoteD}
23:06:49 <arseniiv> I’ve rewritten the code much now, but it seems I need three layers of handlers: ones for my dsl I use to test things, ones to be tucked inside “compiled” quotes and then also ones which are instantiated to be allowed on call stack (where all quotes are now closures). I’m a bit wary on when exactly one needs to make closures and how to write all that not to make silly mistakes, that’ll need to wait for tomorrow
23:08:37 <arseniiv> I have the same with dsl for quotes, “compiled” quotes and closures already but there it’s pretty transparent for me which goes where, and it’s all coded already now and should work correctly
23:10:04 <arseniiv> I don’t describe the concrete syntax anywhere yet because all there is for a while is Python dsl
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