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00:57:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:Deadfish++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117185&oldid=117177 * None1 * (+38) /* Question */
01:03:57 <esolangs> [[V^v]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117186&oldid=115550 * None1 * (+30)
01:06:02 <esolangs> [[V^v]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117187&oldid=117186 * None1 * (-30) Oh, no. Displaytitles are only allowed to be equivalent to the actual title
01:13:26 <esolangs> [[Talk:Headache (Lang that compiles to brainfuck)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117188 * None1 * (+123) Created page with "I'm curious whether this supports Windows. --~~~~"
01:15:36 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck code generation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117189&oldid=113327 * None1 * (+49) /* Languages that compile to brainfuck */
01:19:34 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck code generation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117190&oldid=117189 * None1 * (-29) /* Other */
01:23:16 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117191&oldid=116830 * None1 * (+190) /* Delete blank pages */ new section
01:24:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * None1 * moved [[Headache]] to [[Headache (brainfuck derivative)]]: Two langs are named headache
01:24:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * None1 * moved [[Talk:Headache]] to [[Talk:Headache (brainfuck derivative)]]: Two langs are named headache
01:26:20 <esolangs> [[Main Page]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117196&oldid=114876 * Esolanger12345 * (+23) minor padding error
01:26:44 <esolangs> [[Headache]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117197&oldid=117193 * None1 * (+177) Removed redirect to [[Headache (brainfuck derivative)]]
01:28:02 <esolangs> [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117198&oldid=117196 * Esolanger12345 * (+84)
01:29:13 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117199&oldid=116966 * None1 * (+6)
02:21:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * StrawberryChocolate * New user account
02:25:01 <esolangs> [[Dip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117200&oldid=117149 * D * (+397) Trivial proof via Grill Tag
02:25:58 <esolangs> [[Dip]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117201&oldid=117200 * D * (+57)
02:27:29 <esolangs> [[Dip]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117202&oldid=117201 * D * (+3) /* Computational class */
02:36:48 <zzo38> I wanted to make up a format better than JSON, because I think both the syntax and data types of JSON is a bit wrong. My idea maybe is to call "ION" (Improved Object Notation), but, maybe you have a better idea. I would have: integers (at least signed 64-bits), floating, string (a sequence of arbitrary bytes), sequence, key/value map, boolean, null. (And, for floating points you can also have Infinity and NaN, too.)
02:37:21 <zzo38> The syntax of strings can be " " for text, < > for hex, and <= => for base64. Is it good enough?
03:56:19 <esolangs> [[Art3d]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117203&oldid=116965 * Gabrielclark3330 * (-849)
03:56:21 <esolangs> [[Recursoin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117204&oldid=108912 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+36) Distinguish confusion
03:57:09 <esolangs> [[Recursion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117205&oldid=73362 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+36) Distinguish confusion
04:59:39 <esolangs> [[Talk:Transet]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117206 * Hakerh400 * (+635) Created page with "== The "Binary numbers" example == The pattern <code>{[<<>>],[(*),<<>>]}</code> (which is supposed to match character <code>1</code>) also matches the representation of character <code>|</code>. If <code>*</code> is replaced with <code><></code>, the resulting se
05:01:52 <esolangs> [[Transet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117207&oldid=117160 * Hakerh400 * (+267) Fix grammar, add interpreter
05:13:01 <esolangs> [[SaHuTOrEPoL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117208&oldid=93610 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+132) Stub, categories
05:14:03 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117209&oldid=117199 * * (+21) /* The Classic */
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06:14:43 <esolangs> [[Pairpointing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117210&oldid=117029 * Fazaazafg * (-198) /* Loops */
06:22:05 <esolangs> [[Pairpointing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117211&oldid=117210 * Fazaazafg * (+18) /* Built-in functions */
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08:36:54 <river> https://orlp.net/blog/subtraction-is-functionally-complete/
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09:12:50 <esolangs> [[Dip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117212&oldid=117202 * D * (+191) This proof is incorrect. I'll compile the waterfall model to it
09:16:58 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117213&oldid=117209 * Esolanger12345 * (+70)
09:17:06 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117214&oldid=117213 * Esolanger12345 * (+1)
09:17:30 <esolangs> [[NONE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117215&oldid=117126 * Jaip * (-15)
09:17:43 <esolangs> [[NONE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117216&oldid=117215 * Jaip * (+1)
09:20:24 <cpressey> On the topic of esolangs without names. I often find myself in the opposite situation, where I have more esolang names than I have esolangs. Perhaps we could start up some sort of exchange program. We could go around saying that it was inspired by Douglas Adams' "The Meaning of Liff".
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09:48:47 <esolangs> [[Dip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117217&oldid=117212 * D * (+694) /* Compiling individual waterclocks */
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09:52:03 <esolangs> [[Dip]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117218&oldid=117217 * D * (+187)
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09:57:31 <esolangs> [[Dip]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117219&oldid=117218 * D * (+556) /* Inner loop 1: The flag & A' loop */
09:58:05 <esolangs> [[Dip]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117220&oldid=117219 * D * (+11) /* Compiling individual waterclocks */
10:03:35 <esolangs> [[Dip]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117221&oldid=117220 * D * (+665)
10:05:56 <esolangs> [[Dip]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117222&oldid=117221 * D * (+31)
10:07:09 <esolangs> [[Dip]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117223&oldid=117222 * D * (+12)
10:07:40 <esolangs> [[Dip]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117224&oldid=117223 * D * (+0)
10:29:36 <cpressey> On the much less interesting topic of context-sensitive languages, I've learned that if you have a grammar formalism for context-sensitive languages, then referring to it as a context-sensitive grammar formalism risks a certain amount of confusion, because a "context-sensitive grammar" a la Chomsky is already a particular formalism for describing
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10:31:37 <wib_jonas> cpressey: in that case, please give good names to https://esolangs.org/wiki/(0) and https://esolangs.org/wiki/1.1
10:58:04 <cpressey> wib_jonas: Well, currently I have the name "Hrugmenx" to spare, but I'm not sure it quite fits either of those.
11:01:38 <cpressey> I think there must be some confusion somewhere in the 1.1 article. It links to https://esolangs.org/wiki/Markov_algorithm (because Knuth refers to Markov's book) but the 1.1 language is a bit different from what the Markov algorithm page describes. A 1.1 program has explicit steps in it.
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11:03:01 <cpressey> Whereas Markov algorithms just terminate when there are no further rewrites they can make (...according to that page. I haven't actually studied them myself.)
11:04:11 <ais523> I think the name "context-sensitive grammar" is a little unfortunate: it has used a general-sounding name to describe something very specific
11:05:09 <ais523> one thing that has frustrated me in my recent analyses of tag systems is that the concepts that you want to use rarely seem to exactly correspond to the concepts that have been named
11:05:39 <wib_jonas> ais: should we call it Chomsky T2 grammar or something like that instead?
11:06:04 <ais523> something as simple as "remove the first X symbols from the queue, then look up the removed words in a map and append the map's value to the queue" is an obvious generalisation of tag, but appears to not have a name
11:06:19 <ais523> …and I didn't name it myself because I haven't found that specific formalism to be useful yet
11:06:36 <ais523> so maybe it doesn't deserve one?
11:06:54 <ais523> wib_jonas: perhaps, that's less confusing at least
11:07:21 <ais523> T2 is context-free languages / push-down automata, the sort of thing that you deal with when writing parsers
11:07:26 <ais523> and T3 is regular languages / regexps
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11:08:34 <ais523> fwiw I think there is a sensible generalisation of context-free languages to support lookaround (although there is more than one plausible/useful way to define lookaround in that situation)
11:08:48 <ais523> but I don't think it's the same thing as a context-sensitive grammar
11:09:25 <ais523> cpressey: the problem with naming languages is not so much finding good languages, or finding good names, but having the language and name match well
11:10:19 <ais523> I was pretty lucky with "Genera Tag" – I started by taking the common prefix of "generation" and "generalized", and then realised it was the plural of "genus" (which fits pretty well)
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11:11:05 <wib_jonas> not the same as a Chomsky context-sensitive grammar, but doesn't it still generate the same class of languages, those that you can recognize in space that's linear in the input size?
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11:11:48 <ais523> (and obviously the name had to end in "tag" because it's a queue automaton whose state is calculated as the sum of a function of the symbols it has read so far, which is what seems to me to be the defining factor that separates tag systems from other sorts of queue automata)
11:13:13 <ais523> wib_jonas: I think it's probably a smaller class, I think you can recognise it in polynomial time (unless I'm missing something)
11:14:54 <wib_jonas> by lookaround, do you want to allow looking around for nonterminal symbols, or only looking around for terminal symbols?
11:15:39 <ais523> wib_jonas: there appear to be at least three sensible definitions
11:15:58 <ais523> but I've forgotten one of them
11:16:09 <ais523> one of them is lookaround for terminals
11:16:44 <ais523> and one of them is lookaround for the largest/outermost nonterminal that starts at the position
11:16:53 <ais523> oh, the third is probably lookaround for any nonterminal that starts at the position
11:17:10 <ais523> in the latter two cases, the nonterminal in question has to be part of the actual derivation you're producing, rather than just "anything that matches"
11:17:36 <wib_jonas> right, that one with lookaround for the eventual terminals, that you can recognize in polynomial time, because you can first transform the string to a new string from a bigger alphabet where each symbol contains the (bounded size) lookaround on the original string, and then match that to a context-free grammar
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11:21:25 <ais523> fwiw, the class of grammars I'm most interested in is "the class of grammars that can be parsed in linear time", but this is a hard class to define
11:21:47 <ais523> and it is probably uncomputable to know whether any given grammar is in that class or not (although, I don't think any of the existing grammar-uncomputability results applies exactly)
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11:24:58 <wib_jonas> the variant that I was thinking of, with lookahead for nonterminals, is this. first consider a general Chomsky grammar, that is, a set of replacement rules on the infixes of your word (made of terminals or nonterminals), you apply these replacements nondeterministically from a starting nonterminal symbol, if you can reach the word (of terminals
11:24:59 <wib_jonas> only) then you matched it. now restrict the form of replacement rules, so that each replacement rule is like αpγ->αβγ where the words α and γ are the same on both sides, p is a single nonterminal symbol, and β is nonempty. I think this one is just as powerful as context-sensitive grammars, except you may have to do some adjustments near the
11:24:59 <wib_jonas> edges of the string and/or with empty strings.
11:25:42 <wib_jonas> hmm, you want grammars that can be parsed in linear time... yes, that sounds like it's hard to define or prove anything about
11:26:07 <wib_jonas> we know that any regular language can be parsed in linear time at least, but beyond that it gets hard
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12:24:20 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117225&oldid=116994 * Lilchiky * (+89) /* Backshift */
12:28:10 <esolangs> [[Bawkbawk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117226&oldid=117165 * Lilchiky * (+49) adding a link
12:29:00 <esolangs> [[Bawkbawk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117227&oldid=117226 * Lilchiky * (-2) /* my formatting is very wrong :c */
12:59:11 <cpressey> I'm aware only of a few minor equivalent variants of CSG which seem to exist to make it less obnoxious to work with, and I usually mentally lump these all together into "CSG".
12:59:59 <cpressey> The thing is that CSGs are just terrible for parsing or generating a CSL in actual practice, and a big reason for that is because they need to keep all context in the string. It's a lot like a tape in a TM, you end up shuttling things around a lot. In practice, of course, you'd store the context somewhere else, on the stack or in the heap.
13:02:16 <cpressey> CSLs are also a headache for linguists. Because a CFL isn't quite enough to describe most interesting languages, but a CSL is far far more than you need. So they end up defining various "mildly context-sensitive" languages.
13:03:31 <cpressey> "most interesting languages" -> I mean human languages, but also most programming languages have some notion of context (like defined symbols).
13:08:17 <cpressey> tbh, I think I'm talking about this partly because I'm trying to get myself interested in this project of mine again after abandoning it for several months. I'm not sure if it's working or not.
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13:30:52 <esolangs> [[Talk:Transet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117228&oldid=117206 * GUAqwq * (+530) /* The "Binary numbers" example */
13:32:15 <esolangs> [[Talk:Transet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117229&oldid=117228 * GUAqwq * (+108) /* The "Binary numbers" example */
13:43:00 <esolangs> [[User:GUAqwq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117230&oldid=117162 * GUAqwq * (+1969)
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14:02:09 <esolangs> [[Dip]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117231&oldid=117224 * D * (+93)
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14:32:19 <cpressey> Part of it is that the idea of restricted languages is appealing. There's something ironic about using Turing-complete (=RE) languages to write efficient (=P) code to parse strings in a context-sensitive language (=PSPACE) which in the worst case requires some kind of backtracking search (=NP).
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14:48:06 <esolangs> [[Talk:Transet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117232&oldid=117229 * GUAqwq * (-5) /* Personal problem on the interpreter or on haskell */
14:59:59 <cpressey> It's kind of like, "Why yes, although a bow and arrow would suffice, I always use thermonuclear weapons when I go hunting for elk, because it's so very easy to acquire thermonuclear weapons, whereas bows are such tricky things. And besides, what if I encounter an elephant instead of an elk? I wouldn't want to be unprepared!"
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15:24:43 <esolangs> [[Transet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117233&oldid=117207 * GUAqwq * (+14) /* Computational class */
15:25:54 <esolangs> [[Transet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117234&oldid=117233 * GUAqwq * (-14) /* Computational class */
15:26:26 <esolangs> [[Talk:Transet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117235&oldid=117232 * GUAqwq * (+111)
15:35:32 <esolangs> [[Talk:Emoji-gramming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117236&oldid=84456 * Europe2048 * (+537)
15:43:30 <esolangs> [[User:Europe2048]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117237&oldid=116861 * Europe2048 * (-139)
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16:53:11 <esolangs> [[Gift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117238&oldid=116813 * Europe2048 * (+6)
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18:01:54 <esolangs> [[Talk:Transet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117239&oldid=117235 * Hakerh400 * (+499)
18:02:07 <esolangs> [[RTFM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117240&oldid=92567 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) Stub, category
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18:38:28 <esolangs> [[Hell69]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117241&oldid=94575 * Europe2048 * (-13)
18:46:38 <esolangs> [[Talk:CraftyFunge]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117242 * LEOMOK * (+86) Created page with "What block values are invalid? For example, is Suspicious Sand an invalid block value?"
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20:44:40 <esolangs> [[Inputer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117243&oldid=102061 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+192) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the Inputer programming language on GitHub and introduced the category tag Implemented.
20:47:17 <esolangs> [[Inputer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117244&oldid=117243 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+648) Introduced an examples section comprehending a quintuple of initial members, among them two cat programs and a truth-machine approximation.
20:47:59 <esolangs> [[Inputer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117245&oldid=117244 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+130) Reformatted and slightly reformulated the command table.
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21:02:03 <b_jonas> so how did the borderas of Lichtenstein end up looking on a map like a scaled down copy of those of Luxenburg?
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21:45:22 <esolangs> [[Template:Distinguish/For the]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117246&oldid=55622 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) Indent
21:46:15 <esolangs> [[W]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117247&oldid=109520 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) Formatting