> 1696119222 248830 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Trianguish14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117278 5* 03Ais523 5* (+34807) 10documenting someone else's language + TCness proof
< 1696121170 634246 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1696121173 475851 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1696121250 48053 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1696121799 553970 :A_Dragon!A_D@libera/staff/dragon NICK :DemonDerg
> 1696123887 750152 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117279&oldid=117183 5* 03Ais523 5* (+17) 10/* T */ +[[Trianguish]]
> 1696126255 519918 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07A Queue which can't grow14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117280&oldid=113346 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+279) 10Introduced an examples section comprehending two initial members, one being a counter, the other an adder.
> 1696126373 727298 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07A Queue which can't grow14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117281&oldid=117280 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+205) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the A Queue which can't grow language on GitHub and changed the category tag Unimplemented to Implemented.
> 1696134221 693285 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pairpointing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117282&oldid=117211 5* 03Fazaazafg 5* (+1760) 10/* Examples */
> 1696134295 384481 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pairpointing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117283&oldid=117282 5* 03Fazaazafg 5* (-9) 10/* Examples */
> 1696135047 455035 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0799 bottles of beer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117284&oldid=116320 5* 03Fazaazafg 5* (+1763) 10/* List of implementations */
> 1696135127 634054 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pairpointing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117285&oldid=117283 5* 03Fazaazafg 5* (-8) 10
< 1696135451 122792 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
< 1696135457 276363 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1696135862 97444 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117286&oldid=117214 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+18) 10
> 1696135895 360656 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117287&oldid=117286 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (-18) 10
> 1696137383 135189 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Omam14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117288&oldid=66990 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+155) 10/* Implementation */ Categories
> 1696137548 495113 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FunctionsFTW/Cat14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117289&oldid=108711 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+23) 10Back
< 1696139455 789224 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1696139481 427896 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
> 1696140413 703381 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117290&oldid=117287 5* 03Esolanger12345 5* (-1) 10
< 1696140416 371253 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1696140960 862848 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
< 1696144417 363390 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1696145852 852590 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1696145973 612785 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-83-73.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
> 1696146348 883359 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Broken Calculator14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117291&oldid=117174 5* 03Europe2048 5* (+32) 10
< 1696147435 2300 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-83-73.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have an idea for how to help ensure that grammars in my formalism describe CSLs.  Every time a symbol is consumed from input, accumulate some fixed amount of "fuel".  Every time new storage is allocated, expend some fixed amount of "fuel".  -->  The storage used is proportional to the length of the input.
< 1696147690 422638 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-83-73.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Linear_bounded_automaton
< 1696148106 774038 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
> 1696152888 424665 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07A Queue which can't grow14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117292&oldid=117281 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+65) 10Added further page categories and amended a few orthographic mistakes.
< 1696152933 358565 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-83-73.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's a sort of Buridan's-ass problem with having a wide range of interests: you can't focus on any one interest enough to do anything significant with it, without neglecting all the other interests.
< 1696154888 597756 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1696155260 326340 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Sandies14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117293 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+0) 10Created blank page
> 1696155338 480247 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117294&oldid=117290 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+22) 10
> 1696155426 27134 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Sandies14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117295&oldid=117293 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+26) 10
> 1696155870 581396 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117296&oldid=117294 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+120) 10
> 1696156007 415845 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117297&oldid=117296 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+36) 10/* you can't see me */
> 1696156269 485286 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117298&oldid=117297 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+104) 10/* i is ghost */
> 1696156464 721580 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117299&oldid=117298 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+15) 10/* ghost */
< 1696156850 456378 :raz3time!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
< 1696156885 308877 :raz3time!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Client Quit
< 1696160956 864158 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:f48c:6ac0:ba79:c93f JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
> 1696162347 45544 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Chicken14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117300&oldid=117269 5* 03None1 5* (+9) 10/* undefined */
> 1696164289 467473 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:Wrongname14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117301 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+155) 10/* this is a joke, just like Template:Sus */
> 1696164368 445354 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117302&oldid=117299 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+33) 10
> 1696164513 706510 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117303&oldid=117302 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+5) 10/* Play Area (Don't clear after use!) */
> 1696164578 451797 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117304&oldid=117303 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+52) 10/* (The Limit)+1 */
< 1696165905 315125 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1696169831 94254 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1696170079 288115 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
> 1696170672 10514 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117305&oldid=117257 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+116) 10Truth machine gets an upgrade!
> 1696170704 562107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117306&oldid=117305 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+2) 10Adding some appropriate bullet points
> 1696170726 297554 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117307&oldid=117306 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (-1) 10bullet point went wrong
> 1696170743 716784 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117308&oldid=117307 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+1) 10went wrong again
> 1696170921 412054 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117309&oldid=117308 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+0) 10/* again */
> 1696171002 765851 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117310&oldid=117225 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+7) 10/* Bawkbawk */
> 1696171029 96262 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117311&oldid=117309 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+2) 10/* missing one character */
< 1696171443 862534 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1696172431 493127 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
< 1696172453 638454 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-83-73.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1696174554 154564 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :an observation I made recently: the primary difference between https://esolangs.org/wiki/Spiral_Rise and a tag system is that tag systems push onto the end of the queue, whereas Spiral Rise pushes onto a known location that might be before or after the end of the queue
< 1696174601 713177 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :apart from that, it's basically just Genera Tag where all the symbols have the same production map, but can have different widths (not quite the same because the way the position wraps is different)
< 1696174671 865759 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :meanwhile, Genera Tag with all the productions padded to the same length has the same behaviour for the end of the queue – the queue length increases by a constant on every step, so you can find the location to push to via just increasing the location by a constant (as in Spiral Rise) rather than looking for where the end of the queue is
< 1696174762 253724 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, the question: is Genera Tag Turing-complete under the restrictions that a) all symbols have the same production map, differing only in width; b) that map maps all positions but 0 to the same single symbol, with the production for 0 being different?
< 1696174786 867926 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the resulting language is basically the common subset of Genera Tag and Spiral Rise, which is really interesting to me because I didn't even realise those languages had a common subset until just now
< 1696174899 964727 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw, this is making me think of a generalisation of Spiral Rise where productions can move the "tail of the queue" pointer a different distance from the amount that they write to that pointer
< 1696175011 386453 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and if you write onto the same cell twice, the symbols "add" in some sense (at least obeying the rule 0 + x = x)
< 1696175032 212674 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* a generalisation of Genera Tag
< 1696175034 282908 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although I guess it's both
< 1696175311 982713 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Quit: Go back to your cringe 9 to 5. I'll be gaming.
> 1696175791 792357 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Prime numbers generator14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117312&oldid=97085 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+9) 10Stub
> 1696175920 177242 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Meta Memes14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117313&oldid=96948 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+24) 10Category
< 1696176438 245929 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:f48c:6ac0:ba79:c93f QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1696176641 808067 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:c87e:187e:505c:24f9 JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
< 1696177894 753031 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1696177996 913112 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1696179001 865064 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie
< 1696180431 863207 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1696180515 613638 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-83-73.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696181313 437325 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1696181467 792562 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1696182816 206531 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1696185058 583557 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1696186324 734648 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1696186331 792614 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03WaywardFractal 5*  10New user account
> 1696187007 616501 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117314&oldid=117151 5* 03WaywardFractal 5* (+102) 10Said hi
< 1696187124 138122 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-83-73.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Showing that some given thing is Turing-complete (or more generally foo-complete) is a common activity in this community.
< 1696187373 401110 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I find TCness proofs to be a good way to improve the language that you're compiling from / interpreting in order to prove the TCnes
< 1696187375 162608 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* TCness
< 1696187408 42469 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you have a lot of proofs of languages A, B, C, etc. by compiling from X, you can then look at your implementations of X in A, B, C, and think, what other languages could I also implement using these same implementations?
< 1696187430 96127 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and is there a change to X that would simplify all the original programs, and would X still be TC after that change?
< 1696187475 866250 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then maybe you come up with Y, which is an improved version of X, in that it has more power in ways that don't make it harder to implement, and is easier to implement in ways that don't make it less powerful
> 1696187880 854094 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfish++14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117315&oldid=117262 5* 03Europe2048 5* (+1) 10
> 1696189407 123248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NASAL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117316&oldid=109306 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+614) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the NASAL programming language on GitHub and supplemented two page category tags.
> 1696189561 613704 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NASAL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117317&oldid=117316 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+368) 10Introduced an examples section comprehending two initial members: one demonstrating the while loop in conjunction with the pop operation, the other the same iterative facility with rearrangements.
> 1696189726 239485 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NASAL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117318&oldid=117317 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+0) 10Rectified the BitBrain equivalency entry for the start of the program, as the same lacked the zero-valued integer argument and instead employed m instructions.
< 1696190190 782924 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Quit: gone too far
< 1696190925 285796 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1696193378 221640 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07The Waterfall Model14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117319&oldid=115309 5* 03Ais523 5* (+207) 10add See also section, and a little discussion of the Flooding variant
< 1696193648 991870 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-83-73.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was thinking that most of these proofs are bisimulation proofs, or rather compiler correctness proofs. You have the language of foo, you have a compiler from foo to bar (call it foobar), and you show that, for all x, foo(x) ~ bar(foobar(x)).  Where ~ means "equivalent to" and includes non-termination.
< 1696193711 904373 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-83-73.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was going to say "language of Turing machines" instead of "language of foo", but I think in practice there are very few TCness proof that refer directly to Turing machines. I think most go back to a language that has already been established to be Turing-complete.
< 1696193723 351610 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right
< 1696193730 344721 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't see why you'd want foo(x) ~ bar(foobar(x)) directly
< 1696193740 223602 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh I see
< 1696193741 884859 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the most recent proof where I did Turing machines directly was https://esolangs.org/wiki/Addition_Automaton and that was only because it was trivially easy
< 1696193743 979922 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :foobar is the compiler
< 1696193786 881154 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Turing machines are unnatural in a way because they move along a tape but have to eject the same amount of tape on one side that they consume on the other
< 1696193807 590727 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which means that you can't store arbitrary data in arbitrary parts of the tape, you have to go all the way to the end to find new memory to write to
< 1696193829 59421 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yep
< 1696193848 767225 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I agree with cpressey that the way you formalise an "X is TC" proof is to prove that Y is TC and to prove that a compiler from Y to X is correct
< 1696193853 641153 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :usually you instead naturally simulate two stacks
< 1696193882 747388 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am increasingly coming to believe that tarpits basically fall into two categories, queue machines and counter machines
< 1696193890 612973 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and anything else is insufficiently restrictive to be a tarpit
< 1696193925 470902 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the Blindfolded arithmetic proof naturally gives you three stacks; two different Consumer Society proofs give you two stacks directly (though you can go faster than with a two-stack machine, which is why Consumer Society is more of a language of my style than the tarpits)
< 1696193954 612346 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the two-variable blindfolded arithmetic proof is a counter machine rather than stack machine
< 1696194007 26095 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it only gets one number to store data in because the other is needed as a temporary, so it uses the "product of prime powers" technique to store arbitrarily many counters (and from there I implemented The Waterfall Model, which in this context is basically a special case of FRACTRAN)
< 1696194050 10007 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm
< 1696194052 998808 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the speed question has been intriguing me to some extent: it's why I created https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esimpl
< 1696194066 298039 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is as fast as a Turing machine, or if restricted to queues only, as fast as a queue automaton
< 1696194082 695060 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, I think "as fast as a Turing machine" is beatable by things that aren't Turing machines
< 1696194103 82971 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is there a way to distinguish between "as fast as a Turing machine" and "as fast as a two-stack machine"?
< 1696194163 158340 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know there's a distinction between two-stack machine and three-stack machine because the two-stack machine can't reverse (or sort) a list of bits quickly
< 1696194171 270845 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a Turing machine can implement an n-stack machine with only a constant factor slowdown
< 1696194180 773819 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, no, that's wrong
< 1696194186 213548 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I got confused with something else
< 1696194195 433527 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it probably is possible to distinguish
< 1696194232 922422 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think a Turing-machine is as fast as brainfuck, within constant factor
< 1696194257 994099 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(where the constant factor might depend on the program)
< 1696194271 770488 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for non-bignum brainfuck, you can compile brainfuck into a Turing machine directly
< 1696194282 102658 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :bignum brainfuck is substantially different though I think
< 1696194300 238065 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah
< 1696194321 477071 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, I was thinking of brainfuck with 8-bit cells 
< 1696194359 62312 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Esimpl can do bignum brainfuck, implementing all the commands in O(1) apart from < and > which are O(log n) of the value on the cell
< 1696194365 330809 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is actually probably faster than a Turing machine
< 1696194384 931261 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unless there's some clever encoding I haven't thought of
< 1696194401 998287 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, actually, no, + and - are also O(log n)
< 1696194425 821804 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder if turing machine can actually simulate two-stack with constant slowdown with some clever amortized copying solution
< 1696194430 639592 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :amortized O(1) is possible for + and - I think, but would add a bunch of complexity
< 1696194471 40058 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(while retaining O(log n) < and >)
< 1696194570 233422 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: a two-stack machine can sort a list of bits quickly: you do a radix sort with the 0s in 1 stack and the 1s in the other stack
< 1696194579 405434 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* 0s in one stack and 1s in the other stack
< 1696194623 560457 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, you're assuming that the list of bits starts on one of the stacks, so you only get the other one to work with
< 1696194630 865365 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :another question is how you measure the difference between a three-stack machine and a more powerful machine, like one with pointers (a machine with finite control, a bunch of pointer registers, and it can cons and setcar) or one on a tree-shaped memory of cells (like Treehugger but with finite control)
> 1696194634 786509 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Not Python14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117320&oldid=117275 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+0) 10/* Syntactic extensions */ Fix capitalisatoin
< 1696194660 225446 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, I phrased that in a silly way, sorting bits is easy because you can just count the number of 0s and 1s
< 1696194678 441259 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one of the things that I feel like I've been fighting against recently is the assumption that programs have an arbitrary FSM available to control them
< 1696194681 360360 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I should say sorting a list of words of arbitrary lengths
< 1696194683 569426 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and just need to do the data storage
< 1696194726 751433 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in practice, implementing the control part of a language can be just as hard as implementing the data part, and most of my recent languages have been trying to find ways to make the control and data the same thing
< 1696194733 837214 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure
> 1696194747 695275 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Not Python14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117321&oldid=117320 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+1) 10/* Comparison */
< 1696194761 90643 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's kind of the point of Blindfolded arithmetic
< 1696194769 337374 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. tag systems don't have an FSM, if they did they would be queue automata instead
< 1696194806 287246 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you are programming in a tag system, you have to resign yourself to the fact that the position in which a symbol is interpreted is based on the sum of widths of everything to its left
< 1696194819 971043 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which were determined on the generation before
< 1696194859 149879 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, any sort of communication from one symbol to another a) has a time delay and b) affects a segment of the tape up to the symbol that cancels it again
< 1696194933 654328 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :isn't that only true for a restricted tag system that consumes input in fixed width chunks?
< 1696194939 403994 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are some minor modifications to tag systems that would avoid this problem, e.g. imagine a tag system symbol that causes the next symbol to also be produced from if this symbol is produced from (rather than skipping the next m-1 symbols as usual)
< 1696194953 447072 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the time delay comes from the queue, it's not specific to tag systems
< 1696194994 776807 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: no, for me it's true by definition for tag systems, as in I define whether something is a tag system variant or not by whether a symbol can have a "local" effect on the symbols near it or on whether it can only affect the far end of the queue
< 1696195015 567248 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a queue automaton can, say, scan a queue and output all the symbols that immediately follow a given symbol X
< 1696195029 188004 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thus, e.g., "ABXCDEXFXG" would output "CFG"
< 1696195045 188217 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in a tag system, you can't do that all, not even if X is a different width from the other symbols
< 1696195069 173775 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok
< 1696195074 488004 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the input would need to look more like "ABXCYDEXFYXGY", i.e. with a separate symbol to say "stop outputting here"
< 1696195131 324898 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :an interesting side effect is that tag systems are bad at interpreting queue-based languages (including interpreting other tag systems), they are better at interpreting counter-based languages
< 1696195145 517353 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…which is also why tag system TCness is normally proved using compilers rather than intepreters
> 1696195304 812394 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117322 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+6996) 10Created page with " is an esolang by [[User:BoundedBeans]] intended to achieve a certain visual appearance, and to use a lot of his favorite symbol.  ==Syntax== Every line should have exactly 20 regular characters and 20 combining diacritical marks. They should be paired up in such a way th
< 1696195317 695268 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's even if you allow a large number of symbols for the tag system, right?
< 1696195323 666712 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1696195335 985143 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :assuming you need to be able to handle arbitrarily long strings
> 1696195411 86431 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117323&oldid=117279 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+11) 10
< 1696195423 922588 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"print the first character of this string" is possible in tag systems in O(log n) time, which is better than I initially expected but still slower than a queue automaton
> 1696195441 129471 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:BoundedBeans14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117324&oldid=116395 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+10) 10
< 1696195504 455763 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(you can find every character in a position that's 1 mod 2, then every character in a position that's 2 mod 4, then 4 mod 8, etc., until eventually only the character in position 0 has been found)
< 1696195529 60908 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, only the character in position 0 has been unfound, and then it knows it's the character in position 0
< 1696195590 295592 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh, does this work for AORS too? if so then it might be possible to get a sub-exponential TCness proof (but still not linear)
< 1696195619 642113 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the difference is that in a tag system, the string is capable of knowing for itself when the last character has been found, but in AORS some external thing to the left would need to have an idea of how long the string is
< 1696195638 663801 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which it can't know exactly in general, but it's possible to get an estimate that's always exactly right or too high, never too low
< 1696195685 993351 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I guess the problem reduces to "what's the slowest-growing increasing function that you can calculate in AORS" which is non-obvious
> 1696196027 475899 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cammy/Hives14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117325&oldid=117025 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1065) 10/* Encoding of v2 Hives */ Flesh out the rest of the current hive functionality.
< 1696197183 627073 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-83-73.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1696204788 883881 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:c87e:187e:505c:24f9 QUIT :Quit: Leaving...