←2023-10-03 2023-10-04 2023-10-05→ ↑2023 ↑all
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03:42:38 <zzo38> I had written some code for working with TRON-16 character codes in X window system, although it will not work without suitable fonts. (It also includes a function conversion TRON-8 to TRON-16.) (Actually, it uses the XChar2b structure and works like the other 16-bit text functions in Xlib except that if byte1 is 0xFE then it will automatically switch the font rather than treating it as a visible character code.)
03:43:23 <zzo38> The other thing which should then be added, other than output, is the support for input too, but that is not implemented yet.
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04:58:41 <int-e> `? password
04:58:44 <HackEso> The password of the month is suboptimal
05:03:54 <esolangs> [[Bawkbawk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117403&oldid=117395 * Lilchiky * (+596) upgwaide!
05:04:25 <esolangs> [[Bawkbawk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117404&oldid=117403 * Lilchiky * (-37) /* Text to Bawkbawk */ when did that get here????
05:10:10 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is prematurely spooky
05:10:14 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is prematurely spooky
05:14:25 <esolangs> [[Bawkbawk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117405&oldid=117404 * Lilchiky * (+1160) /* Examples */ a new one!
05:16:12 <esolangs> [[Bawkbawk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117406&oldid=117405 * Lilchiky * (+88) /* 99 bottles of beer */ ummm
05:20:12 <esolangs> [[Bawkbawk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117407&oldid=117406 * Lilchiky * (-91) /* 99 bottles of beer */ nothing
05:26:00 <esolangs> [[Piet++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117408&oldid=103945 * Lilchiky * (+7) formatting
05:27:00 <esolangs> [[Piet++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117409&oldid=117408 * Lilchiky * (-2) I did it wrong, sorry
05:37:09 <esolangs> [[BIRL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117410&oldid=72663 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) Stub
05:38:36 <esolangs> [[BIRL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117411&oldid=117410 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) Categories
05:42:01 <esolangs> [[Bawkbawk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117412&oldid=117407 * Lilchiky * (+132) /* Chickens */ ooh yes, upgwaide
05:43:50 <esolangs> [[Template:Strike]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117413 * Lilchiky * (+24) making life easier
05:44:31 <esolangs> [[Bawkbawk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117414&oldid=117412 * Lilchiky * (-6) /* Chickens */ gotta look cool
05:48:35 <esolangs> [[Big Man Computer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117415&oldid=115691 * Lilchiky * (+10) /* adding stub */
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06:07:11 <esolangs> [[Template:Link]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117416 * Lilchiky * (+239) shortcut
06:07:46 <esolangs> [[Template:Link]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117417&oldid=117416 * Lilchiky * (-9)
06:08:04 <esolangs> [[Template:Link]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117418&oldid=117417 * Lilchiky * (+7)
06:08:41 <esolangs> [[Template:Link]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117419&oldid=117418 * Lilchiky * (-8)
06:09:57 <esolangs> [[Bawkbawk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117420&oldid=117414 * Lilchiky * (+6) /* Commands */ shortcut
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06:45:41 <Europe2048> Hi everyone!
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07:41:48 <laerling> Morning
07:53:17 <b_jonas> I traditionally obfuscate my email address by duplicating its characters. This used to work because everyone knew that hhuu isn't a real top-level domain, since there were only like twenty top-level domain names that aren't two letters long and people knew the list. But now there are a thousand top level domain names, so someone might think that hhuu is a real top-level domain name.
07:53:44 <int-e> huh
07:54:24 <b_jonas> although the doubled @ sign might still help. I'll have to test if that's valid syntax, and whether the doubled dot in the hostname is accepted in place of a single dot
07:54:37 <b_jonas> (I think the double dot is valid; the double @ sign hopefully isn't)
07:55:50 <b_jonas> drat, stupid high-level email client, it complains "please enter at least one recipient"
07:59:07 <laerling> b_jonas: Any particular reason against the classic (at)/[.] obfuscation? Or just preference?
07:59:29 <int-e> lack of obscurity
08:00:35 <b_jonas> what int-e says, every email harvester already replaces that
08:02:36 <b_jonas> this is, of course, mostly theoretical because I treat my email address as public enough that every spammer already has it on their list
08:02:58 <laerling> Do you make use of those + extensions?
08:03:26 <b_jonas> occasionally
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09:10:23 <esolangs> [[Template:Style]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117421 * Lilchiky * (+459) Created page with "<includeonly><span style="{{#if: {{{color|}}} | color:{{{color}}} !important;}}{{#if: {{{size|}}} | font-size:{{{size}}}px !important;}}{{#if: {{{font|}}} | font-family:{{{font}}} !important;}}">{{{text}}}</span></includeonly><noinclude>Shortcut for text styling.
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09:51:59 <esolangs> [[Binary lambda calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117422&oldid=108937 * Pro465 * (+44) add category
09:54:50 <esolangs> [[Category talk:Programs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117423&oldid=115267 * Pro465 * (+86) /* I don't know what this is for */ agree with op
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09:59:08 <esolangs> [[Category talk:Themed]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117424 * Pro465 * (+146) Created page with "== suggestion to remove this == in favor of [[Category:Thematic]] --~~~~"
09:59:29 <esolangs> [[Category talk:Themed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117425&oldid=117424 * Pro465 * (+1) /* suggestion to remove this */
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10:25:13 <cpressey> <b_jonas> I presume you're not interested in cases where the lexer just has a small fixed number of modes with similar but slightly different lexing modes <------ You presume right. The more powerful the dynamic-lexer-reprogramming is, the better.
10:26:20 <cpressey> My recollection of Bear Food is that you could register a new arbitrary regexp for any of the built-in token classes.  Which would be a good start at least.
10:26:28 <cpressey> It was otherwise a Forth-like language.
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10:31:49 <esolangs> [[Template:Style]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117426&oldid=117421 * Lilchiky * (+585) Expanding on this
10:38:04 <esolangs> [[Template:Style]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117427&oldid=117426 * Lilchiky * (+68) Expanding on this
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10:59:05 <Europe2048> Hi everybody!
10:59:49 <APic> Heya ☺
11:12:42 <Europe2048> I'm User:Europe2048, and you?
11:20:43 <esolangs> [[Template:Style]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117428&oldid=117427 * Lilchiky * (-22) /* Boxes */
11:21:06 <esolangs> [[Template:Style]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117429&oldid=117428 * Lilchiky * (+1) /* Boxes */
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12:42:15 <Europe2048> Hi everyone!
12:43:22 <esolangs> [[Tetrastack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117430&oldid=116046 * GUAqwq * (+29)
12:45:07 <esolangs> [[Tetrastack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117431&oldid=117430 * GUAqwq * (-1)
12:46:02 <esolangs> [[Transet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117432&oldid=117366 * GUAqwq * (+58)
12:46:18 <esolangs> [[Transet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117433&oldid=117432 * GUAqwq * (-1)
12:50:19 <Europe2048> No human's online right now.
12:55:33 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117434&oldid=117304 * Lilchiky * (+29)
12:55:46 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117435&oldid=117434 * Lilchiky * (+0)
12:57:00 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117436&oldid=117435 * Lilchiky * (-16)
12:58:43 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117437&oldid=117436 * Lilchiky * (+50) this gotta work
12:59:53 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117438&oldid=117437 * Lilchiky * (-63) no diebeto, loll back do gidgen
13:05:33 <int-e> Hmm does "the" tar file format have any silly file size restrictions?
13:06:14 <wib_jonas> int-e: I think that depends on which of the handful of tar format dialects you're talking about
13:06:31 <wib_jonas> remember, tar is an ancient format
13:06:33 <Europe2048> Hi everyone!
13:06:37 <Europe2048> How are you?
13:06:44 <int-e> (4GB would be the relevant file size, but yeah I put "the" into quotes because I know that there are several versions)
13:06:44 <Europe2048> What are you talking about?
13:07:34 <wib_jonas> int-: in particular, https://www.gnu.org/software/tar/manual/html_node/Formats.html#Formats note that it says the v7 format is limited to file sizes less than 8 GB
13:07:38 <int-e> sometimes we just exchange obscure details of software and hardware.
13:08:41 <wib_jonas> int-: note that there's also a table for the limitations, including on file sizes and file name lengths
13:09:27 <int-e> wib_jonas: Ah, thanks for that link. (I probably should've found it myself. Probably would have, eventually...)
13:09:28 <wib_jonas> I think the practical answer is that there's no silly limitation unless you're using ancient software
13:10:48 <wib_jonas> also it seems that freebsd tar can read all the tar formats including the gnu ones
13:11:18 <wib_jonas> and openbsd has the same tar as freebsd and also can
13:12:44 <Europe2048> I don't think .tar is an esolang.
13:13:54 <wib_jonas> I don't see any specific claim for 7zip, so test if you want to make sure, but I expect it can also expect the newer tar formats, since even the newer tar formats are pretty old now
13:14:03 <esolangs> [[Bawkbawk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117439&oldid=117420 * Lilchiky * (+49) /* Commands */ new update!!111!!!
13:14:20 <wib_jonas> (I mean it can probably extract large files or long filenames from tar; it might not be able to extract xattrs.)
13:15:22 <wib_jonas> I should look into these BSD tars, it seems like they might be better than gnu tar, I should check if there's a linux port
13:16:25 <wib_jonas> nah, it's probably irrelevant and not worth my time
13:19:38 <esolangs> [[Bawkbawk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117440&oldid=117439 * Lilchiky * (+291) /* Commands */ an even better upgrade!!!!!!
13:22:44 <esolangs> [[Bawkbawk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117441&oldid=117440 * Lilchiky * (+83) /* Memory */
13:25:33 <int-e> Oh, wrong format... the relevant thing is actually a zip file. Which does have a 32 bit limit, though there's a 64 bit variant... but that is embarrassingly recent (2017).
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13:26:34 <int-e> (I ran into `gog` packaging a 15GB file in four parts, then concatenating them, causing me to run out of disk space... this seems to be why. SIGH.)
13:26:41 <esolangs> [[Bawkbawk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117442&oldid=117441 * Lilchiky * (+18) /* 99 bottles of beer */ fixing
13:26:50 <wib_jonas> int-e: ah, zip.
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13:27:39 <Europe2048> Hi everyone!
13:27:53 <int-e> wib_jonas: `tar` is involved too... they have a shell script that is followed by a `tar.gz` file containing the installer executable, and then finally the actual game package as a zip file.
13:28:39 <cpressey> Hi Europe2048.  I noticed something about Deadfish++
13:28:51 <Europe2048> What is it?
13:29:14 <int-e> So the `zip` file support comes from the installer and that means 6 years may not be enough time for it to support the zip64 format yet.
13:29:33 * int-e sad
13:29:59 <cpressey> "Unlike Deadfish, memory pointers can be above 255 or below 0."  -- this is a bit difficult to understand, because (a) Deadfish doesn't have "memory pointers" as such, and (b) numbers in Deadfish can be above 255.
13:30:40 <Europe2048> I meant here that memory pointers can also be 256 or below 0.
13:30:46 <Europe2048> Let me fix this.
13:30:56 <wib_jonas> https://7-zip.org/history.txt says that 7zip started to support zip64 in year 2004
13:31:52 <esolangs> [[Deadfish++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117443&oldid=117358 * Europe2048 * (-5) Made "Unlike Deadfish..." more understandable.
13:32:11 <Europe2048> See? I fixed it!
13:32:23 <wib_jonas> with typical software that wouldn't count as embarrassingly recent, but archivers like this, and zip especially, are supposed to be much more stable in formats than normal software
13:32:52 <wib_jonas> 2004 is not bad though, I think I still only had a 2 gigabyte sized hard disk back then
13:36:09 <int-e> AH.
13:38:02 <int-e> wib_jonas: Sorry, that was another failure to comprehend information on my part. Wikipedia says "Retrieved" and then a date in 2017 for the ZIP specification, and it was probably a later version anyway.
13:38:06 <cpressey> Aww.  The fact that you can't, for a completely arbitrary reason, make the number 256 in Deadfish, is one of its biggest charms, IMO.  To make a Deadfish derivative, and leave that out, is... awww.
13:38:09 <wib_jonas> admittedly I was also in a university that had servers serving many students at once and those had much bigger hard disks, but even so you'd rarely meet individual files larger than 2G
13:39:35 <cpressey> In other news, I'm implementing, uh, a language, in, uhhhh... another language
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13:40:05 <wib_jonas> cpressey: hehe, that's like trying to send data unescaped on IRC, where exactly three of the 256 bytes is banned
13:41:03 <wib_jonas> of course we also have a *systematic* way to make some numbers impossible to use, even as intermediate results in arithmetic
13:41:19 <wib_jonas> (it's https://esolangs.org/wiki/Forte )
13:41:22 <int-e> wib_jonas: So it's actually from 2001. That's far less embarrassing.
13:41:24 <int-e> phew
13:42:09 <int-e> But of course that still doesn't guarantee that third party libraries support it.
13:42:12 <Europe2048> "Aww.  The fact that you can't, for a completely arbitrary reason, make the number 256 in Deadfish, is one of its biggest charms, IMO.  To make a Deadfish derivative, and leave that out, is... awww." Thanks, I guess.
13:42:15 <int-e> Oh well.
13:42:36 <wib_jonas> int-e: yeah, DVD images which are larger than 4 gigabyte existed at that time
13:43:27 <fizzie> According to https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/historical-cost-of-computer-memory-and-storage when "normalized" by price a 2 gigabyte hard disk in 2004 "corresponds" to a 85-gigabyte hard disk in 2022, meaning it would have been pretty small at the time.
13:44:20 <int-e> did they even make 89 GB HDDs in 2022 though ;)
13:44:27 <wib_jonas> fizzie: is that for new drives? the 2 gigabyte hard disk was rather old by that time, and I may have also been mistaken above and had got a larger drive by 2004
13:44:53 <int-e> (yeah I'm ignoring the "normalized")
13:45:05 <fizzie> I don't know the sources of that data, and since it covers a timespan from 1957 to 2022 it's probably not all that "uniform".
13:45:32 <wib_jonas> I think I had the 2 gigabyte disk starting from around 1995 when I first had my own PC separate from my father's PC, so by 2004 I probably got a bigger one
13:45:48 <int-e> Gotta admire the company that paid $200T for a TB in 1956
13:45:56 <int-e> Just to put that dot on the graph.
13:46:04 <int-e> (Again ignoring the "normalized" of course)
13:46:05 <fizzie> Looks like new drives sold in 2004 were typically in the 80, 120, 160, maybe 250 gigabyte range.
13:46:16 <wib_jonas> yes, that's believable
13:46:45 <wib_jonas> int-e: that's for RAM though, not disk
13:46:46 <int-e> Those sizes are familiar
13:47:23 <int-e> wib_jonas: Sure. That's a lot of wires and ring magnets.
13:47:31 <wib_jonas> and I think that graph is for the largest RAMs and disks that you can reasonably buy for a server, not for a cheaper stuff that a uni student has at home from their parents' money
13:47:55 <wib_jonas> hehe, yes
13:47:55 <int-e> (I /think/ that was the technology? Or was it still relays and tubes...)
13:49:16 <wib_jonas> int-e: it was magnetic core memory, yes
13:49:42 <wib_jonas> that but also spinning magnetic disks for memory, and even delay lines
13:50:47 <wib_jonas> wait a moment, on that graph, what's the difference between "flash" and "solid state"?
13:51:05 <int-e> I've read about delay lines (maybe because of this channel?)... what a weird technology. Ingenius of course.
13:51:44 <int-e> wib_jonas: Good question... I'd guess (but not with great confidence) that SSD implies wear levelling.
13:51:59 <wib_jonas> int-e: they make much more sense for analog data, specifically one line of color information for television in formats that send color in alternating lines
13:52:05 <fizzie> wib_jonas: It's apparently from https://jcmit.net/flashprice.htm
13:52:42 <fizzie> So "flash" is USB thumb drives and memory cards, while "solid state" is internal SATA or PCIe storage devices.
13:54:05 <int-e> So no real functional distinction then. Fair enough.
13:55:21 <int-e> But then it's weird that they stop tracking `flash` in the graph once internal SSDs take off...
13:58:11 <fizzie> int-e: Regarding your other question, I can still find an Amazon listing for a 80GB mechanical (IDE) hard drive as new: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Western-Digital-Scorpio-Cache-Internal/dp/B000RHTIZO/ref=sr_1_9
13:58:14 <fizzie> "Massive capacity - WD Scorpio Blue 2.5-inch drives offer the most available capacity for space-hungry operating systems like Windows Vista, plus plenty of room left over for photos, music, and video"
13:58:17 <fizzie> Not so sure about that.
14:00:24 <cpressey> I like how all the reviews are from around 2010
14:00:27 <int-e> I'm not convinced that this isn't decades old stock
14:00:38 <fizzie> Well, a 2017 review mentions "sticker dates manufacture as Oct 2008", so...
14:00:54 <int-e> Oh! :)
14:01:45 <wib_jonas> lol
14:02:47 <fizzie> It seems nontrivial to find what's the smallest hard drive that's still actually being manufactured at the time.
14:03:22 <int-e> It's not exactly a marketable feature.
14:04:42 <wib_jonas> fizzie: I'm not completely sure that's not even infinite. Most of the hard disk manufacturers started to make solid state drives instead because it's more profitable, so reputedly all three big hard disk brands are made in one factory in china these days, and that sounds like a fragile situation.
14:04:55 <int-e> I would imagine that it won't be a consumer product, but something for industrial use or other high robustness high durability purposes.
14:05:16 <int-e> But yeah SSDs will be in that niche too.
14:05:53 <wib_jonas> int-e: no, we have the 4 megabyte SD cards for that, so if you want something smaller than an 80 gigabyte hard disk, you can just use a 16 gigabyte SD card plus a reader
14:06:22 <wib_jonas> I don't think anyone uses hard disk for that kind of *low capacity* industrial stuff anymore
14:06:36 <wib_jonas> high capacity sure, but low capacity works better with solid state
14:06:39 <int-e> Let's pretend I said SSD/Flash
14:07:14 <wib_jonas> ok, in that case I can confirm that there are low capacity solid state memory cards in use for industry at my dayjob
14:08:33 <wib_jonas> they're a ripoff like a lot of the expensive stuff we sell, you're not paying for it being better than normal SD cards, you're paying for a brand name and for saying that you're following "the industry standard" so that you can't easily be held responsible when something fails
14:09:34 <int-e> . o O ( More than 50x more durable than the floppy disks that they replace! )
14:10:10 <wib_jonas> int-e: is that measured in how many times you access them, or in how long you store them idle?
14:10:21 <int-e> The former is what I had in mind.
14:10:42 <int-e> And I made up the number of course. It's not like I could be bothered to find any data on this.
14:12:26 <int-e> (The fact in the back of my mind that inspired it was that there were floppies in industrial devices long after floppies were considered dead. And I believe you still have SD readers with an MFM interface?)
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14:18:59 <Europe2048> What are you talking about?
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14:38:22 <esolangs> [[Category talk:Programs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117444&oldid=117423 * None1 * (+117)
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14:41:36 <wib_jonas> int-e: I checked a computer distributor's homepage for low capacity, they definitely sell 512 GB spinning hard disks, and likely 256 GB spinning hard disks, definitely 8 GB SD cards, and 700 MB writable CDs. also the largest microSD cards that they sell is 512 GB, I assumed it would have grown past that by now, but no, it's almost like there's a
14:41:37 <wib_jonas> physical limitation in how much data they can cram into a card the size of a fingernail.
14:44:53 <int-e> Europe2048: I think you'll find that that's not a conversation starter on IRC, especially on a channel that has public logs (see the topic).
14:45:26 <Europe2048> Oh.
14:49:42 <int-e> wib_jonas: Amazon has 1TB offers. And a hit for 2TB that looks fake.
14:53:34 <cpressey> Physical limitations, are those still a thing?  I thought Moore's Law made all that a non-issue, what with the Singularity being near and all
14:54:10 <int-e> `? mapole
14:54:13 <HackEso> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6’ by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
14:55:01 <int-e> cpressey: (that seemed whack-worthy)
14:56:39 <wib_jonas> not a distributor but an OEM but https://www.kingston.com/en/memory-cards lists 512 GB as the largest. 1 TB sounds believable though.
14:59:20 <wib_jonas> https://www.kingston.com/en/memory-cards does list 1 TB microSD card though
14:59:21 <fizzie> Same for Transcend at https://www.transcend-info.com/product/memory-card/ -- but their largest regular SD card is 1 TB as well (and 512 GB for µSD), so maybe they don't cater for the extreme-capacity niche.
14:59:34 <int-e> Good point about checking manufacturer sites. https://www.westerndigital.com/de-de/products/memory-cards/sandisk-ultra-uhs-i-microsd#SDSQUA4-032G-GN6MA
14:59:59 <int-e> (down to 32GB though of course as with HDDs that may be old stock)
15:00:17 <int-e> why de-de, but whatever
15:00:34 <wib_jonas> um, wrong link
15:00:55 <int-e> (I know why of course, I just hate that nobody seems to respect the Accept-Languages header)
15:00:58 <wib_jonas> https://www.westerndigital.com/products/memory-cards/microsd (SanDisk) lists 1 TB microSD card
15:02:30 <fizzie> I have a 16 MB CF card rolling around at the bottom of a chest of drawers that seems hard to find a reasonable use for.
15:02:32 <wib_jonas> int-e: that's probably for the best. sure, homepages can already learn everything using client-side scripts, but let them work for it rather than broadcast my preferred languages, operating system, monitor resolution, and all other info in the header of every HTTP query. accept-languages sounds nice in theory but is probably best not used by
15:02:32 <wib_jonas> clients.
15:03:31 <int-e> but what they do instead is worse, guessing a language based on IP
15:04:33 <wib_jonas> int-e: yes, but they have to pick a language *somehow*, so I don't care too much if it's by IP. the problem is when they don't let me override the language easily from a menu entry, which I think is orthogonal to how they guess.
15:05:17 <int-e> fizzie: I think that fits all of Monkey Island 2! Barely.
15:05:31 <wib_jonas> and I can't just use a uniform Accept-Languages because I want to see certain homepages in hungarian and others in english, in both case when the homepage exists in both english and hungarian (in some state at least)
15:06:42 <fizzie> I think it might just DOS 6.22 and Windows for Workgroups 3.11 install media, since that was 3 + 8 floppies.
15:07:13 <int-e> Hehe, "Games that spaned the most Disks" https://www.lemonamiga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=186
15:07:40 <fizzie> (Hmm, is it Windows for Workgroups 3.11 or Windows 3.11 for Workgroups?)
15:08:03 <int-e> Memory suggests the latter.
15:08:04 <wib_jonas> fizzie: unlikely. you wouldn't use an SD card as DOS 6.22 or Windows 3.11 installer media, since old computers where you installed those didn't have drivers for SD card readers \so you couldn't install from them
15:08:27 <wib_jonas> even CD-ROM would be stretching it
15:08:35 <int-e> so does $SEARCHENGINE
15:08:35 <fizzie> I like those plurals where there's a two-word unit and the suffix goes in the first word, like 'postmasters general'.
15:09:36 <fizzie> I think Baldur's Gate came on 6 CD-ROMs, that was quite something too.
15:09:52 <wib_jonas> fizzie: I write those a lot when talking about Factorio, especially about putting 4 red modules 3 each into assemblers 3\
15:11:28 <cpressey> Some days I think I would like to pare down a NetBSD distribution until it fits in 16MB.  Just because.
15:12:03 <cpressey> Other days I think I have better things to do.
15:13:07 <wib_jonas> cpressey: do you also want to make it run on a system with just 2 MB of RAM? I had heard a legend of Linux 1 running on such a system, but I'm not sure if I believe it.
15:14:28 <wib_jonas> back when I started to use linux, the kernel version number started with 2.2., it strictly required at least 4 MB RAM, and rescue systems came on 2 or 3 floppies.
15:15:30 <cpressey> I think the NetBSD kernel still "fits on a floppy", if that floppy is the 2.88M kind, which I've never seen in real life but which can be used as the El Torito boot image on an ISO 9660 image.
15:15:50 <cpressey> But 2.88M > 2M so I would be OK if 4M was the minimum RAM
15:17:17 <wib_jonas> cpressey: the trick with two floppy rescue images was that one floppy has the kernel and one the file system, so the file system ones stays in the floppy drive and so you don't have to load it in RAM. but I think 2 MB RAM was impossible by then even if you have a many megabyte large hard disk.
15:18:26 <wib_jonas> my DOS rescue floppy loads the whole rescue file system to a RAM disk, and since it has to fit the decompressed version twice into the RAM disk when loading, 2 MB of RAM would certainly not be enough for it
15:19:28 <wib_jonas> I never tried to make a Linux rescue system, I just used stock images for that
15:24:20 <wib_jonas> these days even a linux kernel without modules doesn't fit in 2 MB
15:31:33 <cpressey> The default ("GENERIC") NetBSD kernel (for i386, I should note) is about 20MB.  You can compile a stripped-down version ("GENERIC_TINY") with minimal hardware support.  I did this recently, went and looked how big it is: 2.6M
15:32:02 <cpressey> More precisely, 2684240 bytes according to "ls -l"
15:36:18 <wib_jonas> is that compressed?
15:37:06 <cpressey> No, not compressed.
15:38:00 <cpressey> gzip brings it down to 1.2M
15:38:28 <cpressey> Not sure what kind of support there is for booting from that these days.  There probably is, but it's increasingly obscure how to do it
15:38:54 <wib_jonas> booting from what?
15:39:57 <cpressey> Booting from a compressed kernel.  Oh hey, that means it DOES fit on a floppy, a "normal" 1.44MB one.
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15:41:06 <wib_jonas> I think the decompression used to be built into the kernel image itself, but these days I'm not sure if it's in the kernel or the boot loader anymore. In any case, grub2 is customizable so you can probably build a very tiny one if it only needs to support one thing.
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15:42:12 <fizzie> One-floppy Linuxes were definitely a thing still in 2002-2003.
15:44:05 <fizzie> I had my "civil service" (alternative way for doing the compulsory Finnish military service thing) then, at a place, where I had to answer phones between, I don't know, something like 3pm-5pm when the normal receptionists had gone home, and there was a computer I didn't have account on, but I could reboot it into a single-floppy Linux with an SSH client to chat in IRC during the 95% of the time
15:44:07 <fizzie> nobody was calling.
15:44:31 <esolangs> [[HQ9+B]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117445&oldid=30545 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+32) Stub, category
15:45:31 <esolangs> [[Dbfi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117446&oldid=112834 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) Category
15:45:47 <fizzie> (It probably had many megabytes of RAM though.)
15:46:25 <esolangs> [[4Head/AuthorImplementation.c]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117447&oldid=108690 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+16) Back
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16:00:07 <Europe2048> I'm back!
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16:15:11 -!- isabella has changed nick to isabellatrix.
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16:39:46 <Europe2048> Anyone here?
18:38:28 <esolangs> [[4Head]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117448&oldid=114220 * 1hals * (+364) explain more
18:39:27 <esolangs> [[4Head]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117449&oldid=117448 * 1hals * (+3)
19:03:22 <esolangs> [[Counting]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117450&oldid=89293 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+822) Rectified several examples which were based on the assumption of a counter start value of 1, another which employed the undefined print statement, and introduced a 99 Bottles of Beer program.
19:04:14 <esolangs> [[Counting]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117451&oldid=117450 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+166) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the Counting programming language on GitHub and changed the category tag Unimplemented to Implemented.
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19:33:51 <esolangs> [[Standard single-character instructions]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117452&oldid=44833 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) Stub, link
19:35:27 <Europe2048> No human is online.
19:38:28 <esolangs> [[Stack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117453&oldid=112892 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) /* See Also */ Link to push-down automaton
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20:08:10 <Europe2048> Anyone?
20:08:38 <esolangs> [[Counting]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117454&oldid=117451 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+588) Added a pseudocode formulation of the program concepts, and amended two mistakes.
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20:37:17 <zzo38> Right now I am on
20:39:04 <Europe2048> Hi zzo38!
20:40:07 <zzo38> Do you have any question or something else to write about? (Note, there are also logs, that if the question is written on a different day, someone might still read it; but I am on now so if you have a question now then maybe I might be able to answer (or maybe I don't know).)
20:45:29 <Europe2048> No. Anyways, go check out my esolang (Deadfish++).
20:45:38 <Europe2048> If you haven't already.
20:45:47 <zzo38> OK, I will look
20:56:44 <Europe2048> Thanks
20:59:21 <esolangs> [[Deadfish++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117455&oldid=117443 * Europe2048 * (+44) One-line coding is here.
21:00:53 <Europe2048> Sorry for the afk.
21:04:54 <esolangs> [[SimpliVode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117456&oldid=58366 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) Stub, categories
21:21:16 <esolangs> [[Counting]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117457&oldid=117454 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+5041) Introduced a commands section comprehending the binary operations in a tabular illustration.
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21:43:24 <esolangs> [[Betterfunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117458&oldid=98455 * LEOMOK * (+106) fixed mistakes and added a note
21:43:58 <esolangs> [[Betterfunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117459&oldid=117458 * LEOMOK * (+3) fixed another mistake
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21:55:15 <esolangs> [[Rotary Quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117460&oldid=68895 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) Link
23:04:13 <esolangs> [[Counting]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117461&oldid=117457 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+456) Supplemented a tabular aperu concerning the unary operators.
23:14:22 <esolangs> [[Counting]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117462&oldid=117461 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+1121) Added information regarding the three available statements halt, out, and read, as well as such concerning comments.
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