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04:20:28 <int-e> b_jonas: The plot thickens: https://github.com/icculus/mojosetup/commit/1ad762b82a7dbd435285afd74fca9f334d6c5930 is newer than GOG, so if they forked mojosetup they may not have ZIP64 support.
04:23:01 <zzo38> I know you had mention before the "So Broken" sokoban game. Is this the proper rules?   http://sprunge.us/h6Sk6W  (I have not actually played the game, so I guessed)
04:25:52 <int-e> how does that differ from sokoban?
04:26:30 <int-e> The main point of So Broken is that undo/redo do not move the player, only the boxes.
04:27:53 <int-e> (And it's okay for the player to be on the same square as a box; the player just can't move then.)
04:30:11 <shachaf> Hmm, did you play Tres Undos?
04:30:13 <int-e> Other than that... hmm I seem to recall colored boxes and targets? I don't remember all the mechanics.
04:30:17 <shachaf> I guess I mentioned it in here before?
04:30:22 <shachaf> Maybe that's the context the other one came up in?
04:31:00 <int-e> Anyway I can't read zzo38's paste.
04:31:19 <zzo38> Is the player supposed to not move if the box is in the same position than player?
04:32:04 <zzo38> Does the paste not work, it works but is unreadable?
04:32:40 <int-e> I do not know what it does. I do not know what language that is.
04:33:38 <zzo38> It is the Free Hero Mesh programming language, and it is (intended to be) a implementation of So Broken game.
04:33:47 <int-e> In the original game, if the player is on the same square as a box, then only the box is displayed; the player is hidden and trying to move has no effect.
04:34:57 <int-e> One way this happens is that you push a box one square and then "undo"... the box will revert to its previous position, and the player will stay there.
04:35:21 <zzo38> This implementation uses S and R to save/restore the position of the boxes, by creating a invisible (and non-interacting) object to save its position. (VisualOnly means it is non-interacting with movement; Invisible is implied because Image is not specified for that class.) (The game engine has undo/redo function but its meaning cannot be changed like that.)
04:36:11 <int-e> You can move through a box by pushing it twice (provided there is enough space) and then "undo" twice.
04:36:33 * int-e shrugs.
04:36:50 <zzo38> This one doesn't prevent the player from moving where there is a box, although it could be changed to prevent that easily enough if it is desired. (Although, I thought it would be necessary to be in the same position due to one of the screenshots?)
04:37:42 <zzo38> (The player can't move into the same cell as a box except by pushing R to move the box where there is the player, but if that is the case, the player can then move out of that cell.)
04:37:48 <int-e> I actually forgot... I seem to recall that the undo/redo stack is unaffected as long as the player moves without pushing a box?
04:38:10 <int-e> Been a while.
04:44:24 <zzo38> (Making the player invisible if there is a box in the same cell would also be possible, but I think merely to prevent being movement would be good enough)
04:45:10 <zzo38> (Making many colour of boxes also would be possible to do but also I had not done; none of the screenshots shown there have colours of boxes, anyways)
04:55:51 <zzo38> Do you like to make up the puzzle game, too?
04:56:20 <int-e> shachaf: oh god, how many levels of "really" does that game add to "undo"?
04:59:12 <shachaf> int-e: The name is a hint.
05:00:48 <int-e> So it is.
05:02:36 <zzo38> What I had read a comment of Tres Undos says four undo levels, but only three are actually used
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05:41:53 <int-e> hats?!
05:42:12 <int-e> oh I see. FANCY
05:52:13 <int-e> I'm missing the point of the puzzle though.
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05:58:09 <shachaf> There's only one puzzle with hats, right?
05:58:36 <shachaf> I'm guessing it's more to show the idea.
05:58:44 <shachaf> Oh, no, there's also a "Player Pack" with extra puzzles.
06:00:04 <shachaf> And they also have another new element, hmm.
06:00:42 <int-e> I'll get back to it later but for the time being I'm stuck on that one, hmm, "official" hat level.
06:57:05 <shachaf> Ah, I misunderstood.
07:16:27 <b_jonas> int-e: which game is the hat in? I'm confused among all these games mentioned now
07:17:00 <int-e> The Tres Undo one
07:17:06 <int-e> +s
07:47:45 <int-e> Ah, got it... basically forgot a trick.
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10:02:26 <esolangs> [[Counting]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117463&oldid=117462 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+781) Introduced a section treating of the involved data types.
10:08:12 <cpressey> Hi arseniiv
10:08:22 <arseniiv> hi!
10:12:18 <int-e> shachaf: the player pack looks difficult... I have solved *one* of those so far
10:26:11 <arseniiv> int-e: what are you and shachaf playing? Sorry I missed the start of discussion
10:26:48 <int-e> we have logs :P
10:27:09 <arseniiv> IDK what to search for :')
10:28:00 <arseniiv> don’t want to read them, I’ll won’t know how to stop and will eventually forget what I look for
10:28:50 <arseniiv> btw were it some of you here who’ve suggested to play Patrick’s Parabox? It was absolute masterpiece
10:29:09 <arseniiv> very much liked the experience
10:30:50 <int-e> arseniiv: it's literally in the past 10 messages, well, was, before your monolog
10:30:53 <int-e> :P
10:31:24 <arseniiv> int-e: oh sorry I thought it was earlier this week or something
10:34:06 <arseniiv> found it, thankso
10:34:55 <arseniiv> int-e: then was it a different game that I seem to remember you discuss a week or so earlier?
10:35:12 <arseniiv> idle curiosity
10:37:58 <arseniiv> btw have I written anything about microtonal music here? No themed esolang though, I don’t think there can be a fruitful idea to marry the two
10:38:33 <int-e> a week ago?
10:38:41 <arseniiv> (there is plenty of esomath though: linear algebra applications, including exterior algebra; and some other things)
10:39:15 <shachaf> Oh, speaking of linear algebra, what's going on with cyclic codes?
10:39:21 <arseniiv> int-e: if you don’t remember then I either synthesized something that wasn’t, or bad with time. No problem then
10:39:21 <shachaf> Why are people into them?
10:40:12 <arseniiv> (cyclic codes looked pretty esoteric to me last time I’ve seen them, but I have barely an understanding)
10:40:39 <shachaf> So one thing is codes generated by a polynomial. Fix some field, and take a polynomial p of degree k in that field, and consider strings of length n > k. The code words are exactly the multiples of p.
10:40:44 <shachaf> Right?
10:41:29 <shachaf> And one property of cyclic codes is that they're always generated by a polynomial -- specifically the (unique) lowest-degree monic polynomial in the code -- and also that polynomial divides x^n - 1
10:42:22 <shachaf> I've gathered this much.
10:42:50 <shachaf> And these things aren't that hard to prove.
10:43:03 <shachaf> Oh, and also any polynomial that divides x^n - 1 generates a cyclic code.
10:43:52 <int-e> arseniiv: There was that Niagara board game discussion
10:43:58 <shachaf> I'm confused about why people call CRC on variable-length messages -- where there's no particular n -- "cyclic redundancy check", since it seems like it's only cyclic for some message lengths. But maybe people are just being general.
10:44:13 <arseniiv> int-e: aah
10:45:32 <int-e> `? like
10:45:35 <HackEso> like? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
10:47:23 <int-e> arseniiv: and before that the last thing I remember is me discussing shapez.io and its puzzle DLC
10:47:27 * int-e shrugs
10:50:57 <shachaf> int-e: Remind me, did you play SquishCraft?
10:51:40 <int-e> doesn't ring a bell
10:51:55 <int-e> (i.e. I don't even recall a recommendation or anything)
10:52:03 <shachaf> Uh oh!
10:52:18 <shachaf> I should get back to that one, I only played a bit.
10:52:43 <shachaf> But I suspect it's up your alley?
10:52:45 <cpressey> shachaf: I never found that name too confusing; I took it to mean that the check cycles at n even if the message is shorter or longer than n (or 2n or whatever)
10:53:01 <int-e> we did have a square-squishing puzzle game though.
10:53:56 <shachaf> cpressey: Fair enough.
10:54:04 <int-e> so hmm
10:54:07 <shachaf> Hmm, is there always some n for any polynomial?
10:54:15 <int-e> shachaf: that looks familiar, I must have forgotten the name
10:54:51 <shachaf> Ah, OK.
10:55:24 <razetime> squishcraft has an interesting promotional video on steam.
10:55:26 <int-e> https://bcat112a.itch.io/squishcraft was in my browser history
10:55:49 <shachaf> Oh, that's the demo.
10:56:24 <razetime> there's a "full" version for 259 rupees.
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10:57:57 <shachaf> Hmm, it costs about twice as many rupees here!
10:58:31 <razetime> seems like a nice way to spend a few hourse
11:01:31 <shachaf> I guess polynomial codes, or maybe cyclic codes, are much easier to do error correction with?
11:09:27 <arseniiv> int-e: hmmmmmmm
11:09:58 <razetime> reasoning about how these squishes skew the blocks is getting quite difficult.
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11:23:55 <wib_jonas> shachaf: it's a matter of taste but I'd say no. zip uses crc32 checksum while gzip uses adler checksum, and if you have one corrupted bit it's easier to find which one it is with adler than with crc, because for crc you need to find the logarithm of a polynomial in your field
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11:30:39 <wib_jonas> crc32 is linear in GF(2**32), the byte in position n is weighted with the nth power of some generator; while Adler is linear in GF(65521)**2, the byte in position n is weighted with (1, n), except I think the position is counted backwards from the end of the file
11:43:25 <int-e> arseniiv: oh did you ever see this: https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2023-09-18.html#lgd ff. (not sure whether that's still of interest after 2 weeks...)
11:45:23 <int-e> (I forgot except that somehow, CRC32 has now come up once again)
11:47:08 <arseniiv> int-e: I ended up rediscovering it myself but thanks! My implementation was without prepending 0xff bytes though, I think I might have been used something else instead
11:47:46 <int-e> That's just a weirdly easy trick to change the internal state back to 0.
11:48:56 <arseniiv> I played with that for a bit that time, was satisfied crcs are now all right, timed it in a cheap way, tinkered for a bit with different speed improvements and left as is, as I wasn’t in need to extract ogg tracks from anything anymore :D
11:50:15 <int-e> "weirdly easy"... I spent those 30-40 minutes trying various more complicated variations because I thought it should be harder. Silly me.
11:51:10 <wib_jonas> also don't trust what I say above, I have only very little understanding of error-correcting codes, and may be wrong about the specifics above
11:51:39 <arseniiv> eyah I get why all that xoring with 0xff and nonzero intial state to make zero-run-prepending errors catchable, and I get why OGG doesn’t need that (because each chapter should already start with fixed nonzero bytes) but why oh why OGG and zlib are bit-backwards to each other
11:51:57 <wib_jonas> int-e: yes, that's normal in programming, the hard part is to find the simple solutions
11:52:21 <arseniiv> ha
11:52:46 <int-e> arseniiv: Because of Gulliver's Travels of course.
11:53:31 <arseniiv> before reading about backward bits I checked I think 8 or 16 variations in code, and only after all of them were wrong did I try to search for anything
11:54:13 <arseniiv> int-e: what wh… ah yes I remember. I didn’t read that part myself but I read about that after
11:55:14 <int-e> arseniiv: AIUI this, hmm, essay is the actual origin of the term "endianness": https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien137.txt
11:56:58 <int-e> (Well, not the term, but its application to computers and networking technology.)
11:57:29 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: zlib is ancient but I think CRC32 is older still than it, and CRC32 is kind of a simple mathematical idea, so zlib doesn't get to define one canonical version for it. we talked on #esolangs earlier on how x86 has three different unrelated instructions for multiplication in a two-power finite field like you need for CRC, they use two or
11:57:29 <wib_jonas> three different encodings that differ in the choice of generating polynomial, and that while these all represent the field element as a polynomial of a generator, there are two other ways to represent elements of these fields, the logarithmic one that https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=862789 uses, and the one that David Madore's IOCCC entry uses
11:58:48 <wib_jonas> the representation that David Madore's IOCCC entry uses is still linear, but the coeffs aren't powers of a generating polynomial
12:00:05 <arseniiv> <wib_jonas> x86 has three different unrelated instructions for multiplication in a two-power finite field => ow ow
12:05:57 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: PCLMULQDQ , GF2P8AFFINEQB , and CRC32. search the chat logs for it, we discussed them two or three times.
12:12:34 <arseniiv> wib_jonas: thanks!
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12:55:56 <esolangs> [[User:None1/InDev]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117464&oldid=117133 * None1 * (+100) 
12:56:59 <esolangs> [[User:None1/InDev]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117465&oldid=117464 * None1 * (+101) 
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13:01:58 <esolangs> [[User:None1/InDev]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117466&oldid=117465 * None1 * (+64) /* Commands */
13:02:13 <esolangs> [[User:None1/InDev]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117467&oldid=117466 * None1 * (+3) /* Commands */
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13:11:07 <cpressey> I tried to learn more about probability theory over the summer.
13:13:21 <cpressey> I learned that Kolmogorov's 2nd axiom, while indisputably necessary, also prevents probability distributions from having nicer algebraic properties
13:15:01 <cpressey> You can combine distributions in various ways, but you have to keep normalizing the result so that it sums to 1, and that is a buzzkill, algebraically speaking
13:17:18 <cpressey> So I started thinking, maybe you can apply operations to underlying "populations" of some sort, something more concrete, and then derive the probability distribution from that, only when you need a probability distribution, at the end of some sequence of operations.
13:17:32 <cpressey> That seems to work more nicely.
13:21:00 <cpressey> But it also seems likely that it's too artificial to have much practical use.
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13:26:52 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117468&oldid=117310 * Infinitehexagon * (+60) 
13:30:24 <cpressey> Oh, I also learned that the philosophical basis for probability theory is far from uncontroversial.
13:32:16 <esolangs> [[Alpha]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117469&oldid=117399 * Infinitehexagon * (+24) 
13:34:11 <esolangs> [[Alpha]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117470&oldid=117469 * Infinitehexagon * (+126) 
13:34:25 <esolangs> [[Alpha]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117471&oldid=117470 * Infinitehexagon * (+15) /* Input Problem */
13:44:04 <esolangs> [[Beta]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117472 * Infinitehexagon * (+1169) Created page with "'''Beta''' is an esoteric programming language that is part of a series by User:Infinitehexagon on Greek esolangs that will be a derivative of the previous esolang with more commands, less commands, or modified commands. It has 4 more extra commands than Alpha. ==C
13:44:34 <esolangs> [[Beta]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117473&oldid=117472 * Infinitehexagon * (+0) 
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14:00:36 <esolangs> [[Beta]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117474&oldid=117473 * Infinitehexagon * (+376) 
14:01:05 <esolangs> [[Beta]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117475&oldid=117474 * Infinitehexagon * (+2) 
14:01:31 <esolangs> [[Beta]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117476&oldid=117475 * Infinitehexagon * (+4) 
14:02:28 <esolangs> [[Bawkbawk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117477&oldid=117442 * Lilchiky * (+2) /* 99 bottles of beer */ +1
14:06:07 <esolangs> [[Beta]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117478&oldid=117476 * Infinitehexagon * (+12) 
14:08:58 <esolangs> [[Beta]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117479&oldid=117478 * Infinitehexagon * (+75) 
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14:13:08 <esolangs> [[Beta]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117480&oldid=117479 * Infinitehexagon * (+38) 
14:13:36 <esolangs> [[Alpha]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117481&oldid=117471 * Infinitehexagon * (+33) /* Truth machine */
14:14:51 <arseniiv> cpressey: how about probability frameworks à la random matrices? I forget what it was called, dressed as an abstract thing (something like C-algebra); it also was described somewhere at Terry Tao’s blog and might be called “noncommutative probability” or “free probability”. I’ll look at my bookmarks
14:15:06 <arseniiv> that framework might be free from some of Kolmogorov-style pitfails
14:15:25 <esolangs> [[User:Infinitehexagon]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117482&oldid=117387 * Infinitehexagon * (+9) /* My Esolangs (chronological order) */
14:15:36 <esolangs> [[User:Infinitehexagon]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117483&oldid=117482 * Infinitehexagon * (+4) /* My Esolangs (chronological order) */
14:15:44 <arseniiv> but I don’t remember if one can describe an arbitrary distribution that way, or only, say, ℂ-valued ones
14:15:54 <esolangs> [[User:Infinitehexagon]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117484&oldid=117483 * Infinitehexagon * (+2) /* Things I might do */
14:16:20 <arseniiv> this post: https://terrytao.wordpress.com/2010/02/10/245a-notes-5-free-probability/
14:17:23 <arseniiv> it was where I learned that this exists at all, first. But I’ve already forgotten most of it. I just noted it looks quantum-mechanically (because these things are really related in the end)
14:26:01 <arseniiv> yeah, an unital *-algebra and a *-linear functional which sends 1 to 1. The latter should be, I presume, equivalent to the axiom you’ve mentioned, so this would be no way out, then
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14:27:36 <arseniiv> yeah, Tao writes the same right away. 1 is like the whole sample space (its projection operator)
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14:42:08 <cpressey> Mmm that is very interesting though
14:48:24 <esolangs> [[Listack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117485&oldid=117032 * McChuck * (+19) /* Listack: A symmetric, flat, stack-based, concatenative language */
14:50:23 <cpressey> way over my head for the most part, but still, very interesting
14:51:37 <esolangs> [[User:McChuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117486&oldid=104613 * McChuck * (+14) 
14:52:42 <esolangs> [[User:McChuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117487&oldid=117486 * McChuck * (+99) 
14:54:06 <esolangs> [[User:McChuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117488&oldid=117487 * McChuck * (+14) 
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15:19:16 <esolangs> [[Beta]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117489&oldid=117480 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+69) Link, categories
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16:55:27 <Europe2048> Hi everyone!
16:56:32 <wpa> hi
16:59:29 <Europe2048> I'm adding escape sequences to my esolang, Deadfish++.
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17:18:34 <Europe2048> Hi FreeFull, check out my esolang, Deadfish++!
17:18:46 <FreeFull> Alright, lemme have a look at it
17:20:46 <FreeFull> That's a lot of commands
17:21:15 <FreeFull> Hm, a good name for Deadfish with input would be Readfish
17:28:51 <Europe2048> "Hm, a good name for Deadfish with input would be Readfish" Great idea!
17:48:29 <esolangs> [[Deadfish++]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117490&oldid=117455 * Europe2048 * (+1580) Added escape sequences and many more operations.
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17:53:56 <Europe2048> Welcome, Koen! Go try out my esolang: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Deadfish++
18:06:31 <esolangs> [[Deadfish++]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117491&oldid=117490 * Europe2048 * (+476) Added errors.
18:08:43 <esolangs> [[Deadfish++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117492&oldid=117491 * Europe2048 * (+70) 1 new error
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19:21:41 <esolangs> [[Deadfish++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117493&oldid=117492 * Europe2048 * (+29) 
19:38:29 <esolangs> [[Deadfish++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117494&oldid=117493 * Europe2048 * (+6) 
19:38:39 <Europe2048> No human is online...
19:41:19 <zzo38> I am on right now (and, I have seen Deadfish++)
19:42:15 <zzo38> Do you like Hero Hearts game?
19:47:23 <Europe2048> I don't even know what's Hero Hearts.
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20:06:14 <Europe2048> ANYONE?
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20:40:34 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117495&oldid=116836 * Europe2048 * (+180) Added Deadfish++ to interpreter list.
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21:07:39 <APic> Good Night!
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22:21:17 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117496&oldid=117495 * Zzo38 * (-169) The implementation in Free Hero Mesh can be done by (Control) to not needing placing objects in the level.
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