←2023-10-12 2023-10-13 2023-10-14→ ↑2023 ↑all
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01:04:38 <esolangs> [[^!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117820&oldid=117776 * Ninesquared81 * (+774) /* Examples */
01:09:51 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117821&oldid=117131 * McChuck * (+44) Listack
01:12:23 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117822&oldid=117821 * McChuck * (+78) /* Listack */
01:13:09 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117823&oldid=117822 * McChuck * (+32) /* Listack */
01:28:26 <shachaf> zzo38: Is it PuzzleScript?
01:29:32 <zzo38> No, it is not PuzzleScript.
01:36:11 <zzo38> I had made up a different one, which in my opinion is much better in many ways, although it could be arguable.
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02:11:17 <esolangs> [[^!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117824&oldid=117820 * Ninesquared81 * (+8) /* Get number */
02:34:01 <zzo38> (Although, different programs have their own advantages and disadvantages, anyways.)
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03:22:50 <esolangs> [[Funge-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117825&oldid=107314 * BoundedBeans * (+2171) Fixed rcfunge links
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05:10:47 <esolangs> [[MemPanic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117826&oldid=70862 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) Wayback
05:17:01 <esolangs> [[Multiprogramming]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117827&oldid=69312 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) Wayback
05:23:44 <esolangs> [[YoptaScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117828&oldid=110150 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+124) Categories
05:24:50 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117829&oldid=117817 * None1 * (+174) /* Is Category:Unimplemented really neccessarry? */
05:32:30 <esolangs> [[!!Fuck Python interpreter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117830&oldid=113539 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+34) Link, category
05:37:38 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117831&oldid=117829 * None1 * (+85) /* Is Category:Unimplemented really neccessarry? */
05:47:15 <esolangs> [[lang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117832&oldid=117796 * None1 * (+29) /* Specs */
05:47:53 <esolangs> [[No-code esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117833&oldid=115873 * None1 * (+57)
06:01:26 <esolangs> [[lang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117834&oldid=117832 * None1 * (+31) /* Specs */
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06:18:15 <arseniiv> holá
06:24:46 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117835 * None1 * (+410) Created page with "Brainfuck is an esolang invented by [[User:None1]], it is very stupid. ==Commands== The only valid program - <code>Brainfuck</code> increases the accumulator. ==Examples== ===Increase the accumulator=== Brainfuck ==Interpreter== ===[[Python]]=== a,x=input(),0 if a=='
06:32:43 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117836&oldid=117835 * None1 * (+21) /* Interpreter */
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06:35:15 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117837&oldid=117761 * None1 * (+64) /* General languages */
06:35:44 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117838&oldid=117766 * None1 * (+64) /* My Esolangs */
06:36:16 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117839&oldid=117836 * None1 * (+32)
06:38:57 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117840&oldid=117839 * None1 * (+119)
06:40:47 <esolangs> [[This esolang is a brainfuck derivative]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117841&oldid=117788 * None1 * (+17) /* Interpreter */
06:50:33 <esolangs> [[Chefs Kiss]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117842&oldid=117809 * None1 * (+11)
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07:24:15 <cpressey> zzo38: I once started designing a language where the domain objects were tabletop game elements (cards, dice, counters, ...)
07:25:50 <cpressey> And then the programs would've been instructions that the players followed, like "If the card on the top of the discard pile is a queen, move the yetllow counter to the'"go' square"
07:26:31 <cpressey> I never finished it because I couldn't think of a satisfying way to make it TC given that the number of objects on the table would be finite
07:26:53 <int-e> . o O ( What if the card on the top of the discard pile is a pawn... )
07:34:27 <cpressey> An unsatisfying way to make it TC: say there can be a board with an infinite number of numbered squares.
07:36:02 <cpressey> This leads me to think, it's not enough to have an infinite set of something.  All the things in the set have to stand in relation to one another
07:36:38 <int-e> . o O ( Ooh what if the discard pile is a Jenga tower... and you have MtG-like abilities to recover, well, blocks from the discard pile, but only if you manage to get it without knocking over the tower... )
07:37:37 <int-e> (not programming related... just following the idea of having non-cards on a discard pile, which can lead to questionable stability.)
07:47:29 <cpressey> int-e: I eventually got the queen/pawn joke, but "MtG-like abilities to recover blocks" is quite beyond me -- but then, I don't MtG.
07:51:18 <Taneb> I _think_ you might be able to get Turing completeness in the same way MtG is claimed to achieve it, by abusing the action stack (don't quote me on this)
07:51:28 <int-e> The discard pile in MtG is called the graveyard (because cards that represented killed monsters go there), and there are some spells that get cards back from the graveyard into your hand or into play. (There's also a concept of removing a card from game completely.)
07:51:47 <int-e> cpressey: and I used "block" because Jenga doesn't have cards.
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08:13:23 <b_jonas> int-e: you mean https://scryfall.com/card/und/2/awol ?
08:14:28 <int-e> b_jonas: I think you read more into "completely" than I intended :P
08:15:26 <b_jonas> ante zone? chaos confetti?
08:15:33 <b_jonas> hehe
08:16:27 <int-e> There's also this kind of permanent "removal": https://scryfall.com/card/ugl/70/blacker-lotus
08:17:04 <cpressey> I remember being impressed by this distinction In a very old D&D game for 8-bit computers, where characters could be Conscious, Unconscious, Dead or Gone
08:17:19 <cpressey> If they were Gone they couldn't be resurrected
08:26:39 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, that's the chaos confetti one
08:27:24 <int-e> ah
08:27:50 <b_jonas> cpressey: yeah, some D&D variants have an extra step, because if you have at least a small part of the body then it's easier to resurrect the dead, and if they died only a few times ago then it's even easier and more importantly they might not even lose a level from the resurrection then
08:28:47 <int-e> "a few times ago" is kind of cute too
08:28:53 <int-e> (turns, I guess)
08:29:49 <b_jonas> oops, a few turns ago
08:30:56 <b_jonas> and these days there are all sorts of programs, like email clients, that have the concept of deleting an object to the trashcan or recycle bin, and deleting it completely so it's not even in the trashcan
08:31:55 <b_jonas> oh, and I think D&D has a weird three-way distinction between conscious with positive hitpoints, unconscious on zero hitpoint, and unconscious on negative hit points
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09:34:32 <cpressey> It should make a weird two-way distinction on having +0 hit points and having -0 hit points too.  I will write Wizards of the Coast a strongly-worded letter on this matter.
09:35:11 <cpressey> In other news, I have written a (not-actually-)Scheme to (not-actually-)JavaScript compiler, in Lua
09:35:47 <cpressey> It's (not-actually-), but it's quite close.
09:36:40 <int-e> . o O ( At least the Lua is real. )
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09:43:18 <cpressey> I realize a lot of my language ideas aren't weird enough to be "esolangs" anymore, but they're too weird for the "proglangdesign" channel.  (Which seems to be more about pet languages and complaining about systems issues, anyway.)
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10:02:18 <wib_jonas> oh, and D&D creatures can also have the status where they died of old age or their soul is destroyed so even True Resurrection can't fix them
10:03:23 <wib_jonas> apparently there's another condition, True Resurrection can't resurrect creatures who have been dead for longer than 10 years. odd.
10:04:01 <wib_jonas> probably there so you don't try to resurrect famous people who died like fifty years ago
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10:45:59 <cpressey> I found a very interesting quote about Lisp in a book about Modula-3:
10:45:59 <cpressey> "Lisp is the hybrid of the lambda calculus and the theory of a pairing function"
10:46:33 <cpressey> I wouldn't but it that way exactly, myself, but it's an interesting take
10:46:36 <cpressey> *put
10:50:59 <int-e> fungot, why does worm not rhyme with dorm?
10:53:49 <cpressey> fungot's not here, man
10:58:20 <wib_jonas> sword doesn't rhyme with word either
11:00:35 <esolangs> [[Listack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117843&oldid=117485 * McChuck * (+125) /* Advanced Control Flow */
11:02:55 <fizzie> That sword alone can't stop.
11:03:53 <fizzie> Why is it that 'prospect', 'prospective' and 'perspective' are all words, but 'perspect' is not.
11:05:38 <wib_jonas> fizzie: because some idiot brand named plexiglass as perspex and perspect conflicts with that
11:28:00 <esolangs> [[Hello++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117844&oldid=94015 * Harumafuji Kohei * (+213) I hope this works
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11:52:50 <wib_jonas> that said, I think it's fine if you use "perspect" as a verb instead of "project perspectively"
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12:14:00 <esolangs> [[User:Harumafuji Kohei]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117845 * Harumafuji Kohei * (+23) ok
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12:22:35 <arseniiv_> <cpressey> An unsatisfying way to make it TC: say there can be a board with an infinite number of numbered squares. => what about unbounded card piles?
12:29:37 <cpressey> arseniiv_: That's slightly better, but it would need an unbounded card deck.  I play the 18,091,716 of Clubs.
12:31:40 <cpressey> Maybe the positions between objects could be measured in real numbers with unlimited precision, and those distances... nah, see, tabletop games are supposed to abstract things like that away.  They're more topological than geometrical.
12:32:46 <Taneb> Not only are tabletops topological, they're often discrete
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12:35:01 <arseniiv> cpressey: why are unbounded card ranks needed? Like, one can encode something just in the sequence of cards stacked
12:35:16 <cpressey> arseniiv: OK, true.
12:35:37 <int-e> . o O ( But card counters are much cooler. )
12:37:07 <cpressey> You still need an unbounded number of cards though, that was my sticking point.  For whatever reason I was thinking of it very much in concrete terms.  And no one could afford that many cards. (This was all many years ago.)
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12:38:35 <cpressey> Maybe cards could be like "fuel" that's used to ensure computations terminate in some contexts
12:39:04 <cpressey> (I'd be less concerned with it being TC or not these days.)
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12:46:16 <wib_jonas> cpressey: no, you'd just have an unbounded number of copies of a finite number of different cards, like as many Forests as the players need
12:47:01 <wib_jonas> it wouldn't be the 18091716 of clubs, unless perhaps you want to represent that with an ace of clubs with 18091715 +1 counters on it
12:47:35 <arseniiv> btw on fungot not being available: why?
12:48:15 <cpressey> something about fizzie not wanting to troubleshoot something about identd, or something
12:48:30 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: he is implemented in an esoteric language and so is hard to change
12:48:32 <cpressey> or maybe I'm confusing that with another bot
12:48:45 <cpressey> wib_jonas: Docker
12:48:51 <cpressey> Docker is the solution to everything
12:49:46 <cpressey> Actually, I had a bot here once too
12:50:34 <cpressey> Adapting it to work with "ircs" was something I had to research, but in the end, not black magic or anything
12:50:47 <arseniiv> one of my friends thinks the same about Docker; also another one asks right now what’s a pairing function. I think it’s probably that Cantor ℕ × ℕ → ℕ bijection?
12:51:54 <arseniiv> wib_jonas: ah, I probably get it now, libera.chat expects this new more secure login
12:52:35 <cpressey> arseniiv: Yes, Cantor, and later others: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pairing_function  -- I think in that book they were talking more abstractly, about cons cells
12:53:13 <arseniiv> thanks I’ll relay!
12:54:54 <arseniiv> now that the topic of board games giving rise to esolangs was established, it occurred to me if one could somehow make a game with entities forming an inductive data type (or an inductive family of types)
12:55:31 <arseniiv> something less mundane like trees of some kind
12:57:32 <wib_jonas> "no one could afford that many cards" => the M:tG solution to this is threefold. (1) normally you need to own a physical copy of a card manufactured by Wizards if you want to use it in a tournament-legal game, even if you use a proxy to represent that card in game instead. a card moved to a zone is an object. you can't create cards or add new cards
12:57:32 <wib_jonas> during tournament-legal gameplay, only move cards that are already in the game or in the sideboard, but when the rules want to create a new object regardless, it instructs you to create a token or a copy of a spell. tokens and copies of spells don't have an underlying card that they reference, and so an unlimited number of them can be created
12:57:33 <wib_jonas> during the game without owning cards that you buy from M:tG. (2) the number of cards in your deck is bounded. the rules don't give a specific number, but they say that the deck should be small enough that one person can shuffle it. that's a small enough limit that I have more (cheap) cards than I could put in a deck. (3) in limited tournaments, the
12:57:33 <wib_jonas> tournament organizer must provide an unlimited number of the five eternal basic lands, and during deckbuilding you can add as many of them into your deck. (you may have to return the lands to the organizer afterwards of course).
13:00:11 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: hard to be sure without context, but I think no, that's just the cons function that makes an ordered pair, where the car of the resulting pair is the first argument of the function, and the cdr of the resulting pari is the second argument to the function. this is useful only in a language that has multi-argument functions (or at least
13:00:12 <wib_jonas> curried ones)
13:01:56 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: doesn't basically any discrete but potentially infinite game work with inductive types?
13:01:57 <arseniiv> wib_jonas: might be this too, yeah
13:02:42 <arseniiv> <wib_jonas> doesn't basically any discrete but potentially infinite game work with inductive types? => I mean, in a sufficiently transparent way. A puny deck of cards doesn’t feel like a value of an inductive type!
13:02:53 <esolangs> [[Miser]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117846&oldid=113132 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+179) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the Miser programming language on GitHub, changed the category tag Unimplemented to Implemented, and supplemented the category 2023.
13:04:06 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: sure, but this is about the game state, not just a deck of cards packed away
13:04:51 <wib_jonas> some games like Poker have a very simple type for game states, but games like M:tG have ridiculously complicated ones
13:05:30 <arseniiv> wib_jonas: hmmmmmm. But again, the whole state feels like too much too, yeah your note about M:tG shows this exactly
13:06:03 <arseniiv> what I intended is for players to manipulate data like they manipulate single cards, pieces and other things
13:06:20 <wib_jonas> of course a lot of it is hard to manipulate freely in game, so attempts for simulations with M:tG: like the ones ais523 does usually use very restricted subsets of the states
13:06:38 <arseniiv> this would probably be clumsy in most cases, of course, with practicality and interestingness being the heart of the question
13:08:08 <arseniiv> btw I sometimes try to invent algebraic-y combinatory decks of cards which would allow interesting simple games with that deck (something like what was done with Set, but Set is too simple)
13:09:04 <esolangs> [[Miser]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117847&oldid=117846 * None1 * (+25) /* Interpreter */
13:09:40 <wib_jonas> Set is a bounded game (if the number of players is bounded at least), I specifically said unbounded games to avoid that sort of thign
13:09:58 <arseniiv> I had a peculiar result with Möbius like ranks which allow for there to be ranks that are opposite to each other, or for each rank there to be two opposites, depending on where do we try to draw a prism or antiprism on a Möbius strip
13:10:25 <arseniiv> yeah this is not about Turing-complete games and inductive types, I digressed
13:15:21 <fizzie> arseniiv: Yeah, the problem was/is that it only accepts "admin" commands with a specific "user@cloak" suffix, and due to some inexplicable indentd breakage I'm now "~user@cloak" instead, so it refuses to obey me and join the channel.
13:15:25 <fizzie> It'd be quite easy to just patch that ~ in there, but I wanted to fix that identd situation, just haven't gotten around to it.
13:18:06 -!- fungot has joined.
13:18:16 <fizzie> (I just added the ~.)
13:18:30 <fizzie> fungot: How was your extended vacation off the channel?
13:18:31 <fungot> fizzie: good lord, mr fnord has gained... uh... something warp flux thingy worked. answer: " quite well, the u of o dominates eugene or, but, which one shows more idle time?
13:18:40 <arseniiv> interesting
13:18:46 <fizzie> Maybe a little more incoherent than normal.
13:19:50 <arseniiv> “mr fnord” is interesting too, though it should be by all means the expected state transition
13:19:52 <esolangs> [[User:None1/InDev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117848&oldid=117602 * None1 * (+371)
13:19:52 <arseniiv> `style
13:19:54 <HackEso> style? No such file or directory
13:20:02 <arseniiv> `prefix
13:20:03 <HackEso> prefix? No such file or directory
13:20:05 <fizzie> If it was written in a proper language I'd probably just make it do the IRCv3 `account-tag` thing for command authentication.
13:20:07 <fizzie> `prefixes
13:20:08 <arseniiv> uh my poor memory
13:20:09 <HackEso> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
13:20:12 <arseniiv> thanks
13:20:20 <arseniiv> ^style
13:20:20 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld elon enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
13:20:30 <arseniiv> hm what is the current one
13:20:36 <fizzie> "irc"
13:20:40 <fizzie> That's why there's a * next to it.
13:20:51 <fizzie> (A very easy-to-miss *.)
13:21:07 <arseniiv> ah ah now I see; uh
13:21:28 <arseniiv> I thought it was one of parliaments
13:21:54 <arseniiv> though then mr fnord is not as expected
13:22:00 <fizzie> They may not talk that much about warp flux thingies in the parliaments.
13:22:09 <fizzie> Although who knows, maybe they do.
13:22:21 <fizzie> ^style ukparl
13:22:21 <fungot> Selected style: ukparl (UK Parliament debates from brexit referendum to late 2018)
13:22:21 <arseniiv> reasonable
13:22:30 <arseniiv> I overlooked that part too
13:22:34 <fizzie> fungot: What do you think of the tax rate nowadays?
13:22:35 <fungot> fizzie: government new clause 1. one interesting point from the hon. and learned friend the minister for that. i have an opportunity to make the government think of themselves as dictators, but
13:23:01 <arseniiv> it’s so homey
13:24:55 <fizzie> fungot: I think someone told me that freezing the income tax bands like they did instead of updating them in line with inflation is in fact effectively a rather large tax increase, just in a more sneaky fashion. What do you think about that?
13:24:55 <fungot> fizzie: he has the better cakes, i may, from september, we have the right to the protection of a british citizen, to whom governments should have a direct opportunity to do the right things, local developers to do precisely that.
13:25:16 <fizzie> Oh, well, if we get the better cakes I guess it's worth it.
13:28:01 <esolangs> [[User:None1/InDev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117849&oldid=117848 * None1 * (+319)
13:28:30 <arseniiv> 🎂
13:29:25 <esolangs> [[User:None1/InDev]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117850&oldid=117849 * None1 * (+69) /* I/O */
13:29:55 <esolangs> [[User:None1/InDev]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117851&oldid=117850 * None1 * (+4)
13:30:06 <int-e> `? fungot
13:30:06 <fungot> int-e: to the hon. and learned friend the member for leeds north through the northern ireland
13:30:08 <HackEso> fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
13:30:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117852&oldid=116181 * PaxtonPenguin * (+103)
13:30:18 <int-e> <3
13:30:45 <esolangs> [[User:None1/InDev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117853&oldid=117851 * None1 * (+66) /* Commands */
13:31:59 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: would you count Hercules and the hydra as a game? it works on trees. http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2008-03-27.1537.html http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2008-03-16.1534.ordinaux-et-hydres.html#d.2008-03-16.1534 http://www.madore.org/~david/math/hydra0.xhtml http://www.madore.org/~david/math/hydra.xhtml (these are two
13:31:59 <wib_jonas> different games, the hydra and the dire hydra)
13:32:09 <esolangs> [[Chefs Kiss]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117854&oldid=117842 * PaxtonPenguin * (+18)
13:32:14 <wib_jonas> or do the lambda crocodiles count as a game?
13:32:47 <arseniiv> lambda crocodiles sound familiar hmm
13:33:21 <wib_jonas> http://worrydream.com/AlligatorEggs/ explicitly calls it a game, but of course they might be using that word differently from what youw ant
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13:35:12 <wib_jonas> wait, fungot returned? hi fungot
13:35:13 <fungot> wib_jonas: i have to be clear, the government i have nothing good going fnord and grieving families to have the best of the public sector.
13:35:14 <esolangs> [[AMONGUSISABIGSUSSYBAKAHAHAHAHAHATHISLANGUAGEISREALLYCOOLPLEASEUSEITMYLIFEDEPENDSONITORELSEPLSPLSPLSPLSPLSPLSPLSkahyghdfhm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117855&oldid=114132 * PaxtonPenguin * (+17)
13:35:22 <wib_jonas> `? prefixes
13:35:24 <HackEso> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
13:36:58 <cpressey> arseniiv: According to WP the game of Nim has been adaptedto graphs ("The starting board is a disconnected graph, and players take turns to remove adjacent vertices." is all it says though?)  So I wonder if it could be adapted to inductive types.  I don't know.
13:37:06 <wib_jonas> perlbot prefixes
13:37:06 <perlbot> wib_jonas: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =.
13:38:01 <arseniiv> cpressey: oh huh
13:38:18 <fizzie> If we get a ,-prefixed bot, it'll look a little confusing in that list, no matter whether it's `..., commabot ,, ...` or `..., commabot , , ...`.
13:39:07 <wib_jonas> fungot, why does worm not rhyme with dorm? int-e wanted to know
13:39:07 <fungot> wib_jonas: is the hon. and learned friend the member for glasgow north, for the scottish government the powers to the tenant to the county, the proud and justified. it and the associated secretary of states and government
13:39:27 <fizzie> (I've been thinking of (re)using ! for `esolangs` if it ever gets any functionality that's user-triggerable, like logsearching or something.)
13:39:27 <wib_jonas> fungot: When will Unicode become Turing complete?
13:39:28 <fungot> wib_jonas: i have a number, has a capacity of about 690 people in my local police, i have to make a public statement, which may have a sustained and at what amazon, we are a country of only 5.5 million. through the bill,
13:39:40 <wib_jonas> fungot, have you ever decried anything?
13:39:40 <fungot> wib_jonas: to fnord part of the uk, creating a new, integrated and fully support the government,
13:39:51 <wib_jonas> fungot, is a "weatherspoon" the propeller thing under a weathercock that spins to show how fast the wind is?
13:39:54 <esolangs> [[User:PaxtonPenguin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117856&oldid=117807 * PaxtonPenguin * (+23) Me when
13:40:08 <int-e> that's a good list of things to decry tbh
13:40:32 <cpressey> arseniiv: I very much do not understand most of the things in type theory.  I'm not sure if I want to go down that road or not.
13:48:29 <wib_jonas> fizzie: my plan, if I ever again make a queryable IRC bot (that doesn't just take over a full channel and answer there) is to again respond to their irc nick, but also have six three-character shortcuts for the six most frequent commands, namely -0= -=0 0-= 0=- =-0 =0- ; unless it's a bot that implements Niagara, in which case the shortcut is the
13:48:30 <wib_jonas> three-character waterfall ~|_ or the shorter two-character waterfall ~| for brevity
13:49:35 <wib_jonas> single-character prefixes are annoying, HackEso and lambdabot both get triggered by accident two often
13:49:43 <wib_jonas> even when it's two characters but the second is space
13:51:09 <wib_jonas> and yes, I'm saying that despite that I first programmed jevalbot to be triggerable by a single character plus space, and then, when someone asked, I added a setting to make the space optional, and that option was used for whatever instance used ) as its invocation shortcut
13:56:24 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117857&oldid=117191 * None1 * (+246) /* Delete a page */ new section
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14:03:15 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117858&oldid=117838 * None1 * (+318) /* My projects about esolangs */
14:05:14 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117859&oldid=117858 * None1 * (+34) /* jitbf */
14:06:49 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117860&oldid=117859 * None1 * (+0) /* jitbf */ WTF Jul. is July not June
14:07:28 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117861&oldid=117860 * None1 * (+1) /* jitbf */
14:09:10 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117862&oldid=117742 * Lilchiky * (+169) /* */
14:09:25 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117863&oldid=117852 * None1 * (+84) /* Commands */
14:14:38 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117864&oldid=117863 * None1 * (+217) /* Commands */
14:15:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117865&oldid=117864 * None1 * (+0) /* Commands */
14:16:12 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117866&oldid=117865 * None1 * (-11) /* Commands */
14:18:53 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117867&oldid=117862 * None1 * (+373) /* Recursion */
14:29:36 <esolangs> [[Category:Accumulator-based]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117868&oldid=116430 * Lilchiky * (+85) adding onto this
14:30:40 <esolangs> [[Bawkbawk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117869&oldid=117258 * Lilchiky * (+31) a new cat
14:31:00 <esolangs> [[Category:Accumulator-based]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117870&oldid=117868 * Lilchiky * (-1)
14:46:04 <cpressey> "Inductive types usually come with a function to prove properties about them." (WP again) -- I dunno about "usually" -- I don't know what you'd call an inductive type that doesn't support proof by induction -- isn't that just a recursive type?
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15:04:59 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117872&oldid=112607 * B jonas * (+216) /* Todo */ pointer machine
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15:36:35 <cpressey> Ah, craziness!  I just discovered by accident that L. C. Paulson has a blog on GitHub: https://lawrencecpaulson.github.io/
15:43:10 <river> nice
15:50:02 <esolangs> [[Swapfuck/Implementation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117873&oldid=86422 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) Back, category
15:51:29 <river> https://quoteme.github.io/posts/sheaves_in_minecraft
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16:03:50 <cpressey> OK I *kind of* followed that :)
16:06:04 <esolangs> [[Arraything]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117874&oldid=117819 * PaxtonPenguin * (+186)
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18:36:27 <ais523> b_jonas: there's a TCness construction for Magic: the Gathering where the only game object you need unlimited quantities of is +1/+1 counters (although the program is represented by tokens, you only need finitely many of them to represent any given program)
18:36:53 <ais523> although, the current "best" (=simplest and most flexible) construction stores data in the quantity of tokens and in the amount of damage marked on them, so needs arbitrarily many tokens
18:38:05 <ais523> incidentally, there's no rule saying that the five land-typed-and-non-snow basic lands have to be always available – they do have to keep being reprinted in order to remain legal in Standard
18:40:48 <b_jonas> ais523: isn't there now a new rule that you can replace a card in your deck with one of the five basic lands in *constructed* if you registered with a deck but it turns out you can't play one of your cards because the physical card is damaged or some similar problem?
18:42:06 <ais523> I don't think that rule's new, I remember it from the first time I looked at the tournament rules
18:42:29 <ais523> but I'm not sure specifically which lands it allows
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18:43:16 <ais523> Netrunner also has a rule allowing cards to be replaced in order to make a deck legal, but the prescribed replacement cards actually don't exist in the game
18:44:00 <ais523> e.g. if your deck doesn't have enough agenda points, you have to replace cards with vanilla 4/2 agendas until you have enough, but there are no vanilla 4/2 agendas printed
18:44:03 <b_jonas> what do you mean by "don't exist in the game"?
18:44:08 <ais523> I think the idea is that you proxy one
18:44:15 <b_jonas> I see
18:45:10 <ais523> (a vanilla 4/2 agenda would be really bad and numerous cards are strictly better than it – I think the intention is for the replacement card to be worse than any card you might play intentionally)
18:46:24 <b_jonas> I think I've seen something like that in casual to define how goldfishing work. My preference is that the goldfish player has a deck of 60 cards of Forest (or whatever number of cards is normal in the format); but other people prefer 60 cards with no type or mana cost
18:46:50 <ais523> that got updated to 60 Wastes at one point, because the basic land types on the opponents' lands ended up mattering sometimes
18:47:04 <ais523> * at some point
18:47:42 <ais523> and, well, it's more symmetrical to pick the basic land that isn't part of a cycle
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18:49:57 <Europe2048> Hi everyone!
18:50:30 <b_jonas> ais523: I think the principled solution would be to use Plains because there are almost no creatures with plainswalk; I prefer Forests, but if I play a deck with cards with forestwalk then I would use Plains instead
18:50:31 <ais523> this reminds me, I proved a language Turing-complete for a team of people working on M:tG Turing-completeness, simplifying the construction, but haven't been able to tell them about it because they communicate via a forum that needs a Twitch account to log into
18:50:59 <b_jonas> ais523: that must be the Scryfall forum
18:51:02 <ais523> forestwalk doesn't usually matter against an all-land deck, unless you're giving the opponent creatures to block with
18:51:07 <ais523> b_jonas: actually no, MTG Salvation
18:51:15 <Europe2048> Please finish this: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Nice
18:51:16 <b_jonas> right, that one
18:52:46 <Europe2048> So you agree with me?
18:53:25 <ais523> Europe2048: the page *was* finished, but it was using images illegally stolen from other websites
18:53:26 <ais523> so they had to be deleted
18:53:47 <Europe2048> So now you have to remake 'em, all by yourself.
18:53:52 <ais523> no I don't
18:54:10 <Europe2048> Why?
18:54:37 <ais523> because that isn't how obligations work
18:54:41 <b_jonas> ais523: so why can't you get an account on twitch? have they started to require phone verification for all new accounts or some such nonsense?
18:54:49 <ais523> b_jonas: I don't agree with their terms of service
18:55:18 <b_jonas> including parts that would impact you if you don't stream?
18:55:25 <b_jonas> s/would/would not/
18:55:47 <b_jonas> their terms of service is quite weird for sure
18:55:58 <b_jonas> but most of the weird rules are for streaming or for twitch chat
18:56:09 <ais523> b_jonas: last time I looked they had a rather overreaching indemnification clause
18:56:11 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nice]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117879&oldid=117372 * Europe2048 * (+183)
18:56:21 <b_jonas> hmm, I'll look at that
18:56:57 <ais523> I imagine the entire ToS has changed since – those things tend to have a lot of churn – but it's still not something I particularly want to get involved with
18:57:34 <zzo38> Is there any newsgroup on Usenet that is suitable to write about Turing-completeness of Magic: the Gathering?
18:57:58 <ais523> zzo38: technically yes, but it's unlikely anyone is still reading it
18:58:31 <ais523> Usenet used to be the primary forum for discussing Magic: the Gathering a couple of decades ago, and as such there's at least one newsgroup for general M:tG discussion
18:58:39 <ais523> although I'm not 100% confident about what it was called
18:59:33 <ais523> I think it started rec.games., but there's a chance it was in alt.
19:00:34 <b_jonas> oh the ToS definitely keeps changing and growing for sure
19:01:52 <b_jonas> Wizards hosted a web forum about M:tG and more for a while, but they sadly removed it from the web since. that forum did contain a lot of useful information.
19:02:13 <ais523> they also turned off Gatherer comments
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19:05:55 <b_jonas> https://www.twitch.tv/p/en/legal/terms-of-service/#a-indemnification ah, this is probably what you're talking about
19:07:21 <ais523> wow, yes, that clause is *still* ridiculous
19:07:26 <b_jonas> yes it is
19:07:46 <b_jonas> I guess in that case you'll have to find other contacts for someone involved
19:08:16 <ais523> I have been trying
19:08:35 <ais523> at this point the easier approach seems to be to find someone who already has a Twitch account and would be willing to relay the message
19:08:41 <b_jonas> or write up on http://nethack4.org/pastebin/unfinished-mtg-tc-combo.html and hope they read it
19:08:54 <ais523> it seems weird to edit a pastebin
19:09:05 <b_jonas> oh, that's a pastebin
19:09:05 <ais523> even though I can do it, due to having control of the server it's implemented on
19:09:06 <b_jonas> hmm
19:09:24 <b_jonas> I thought you had something outside of the pastebin
19:09:31 <ais523> it's on the wiki
19:09:35 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Flooding_Waterfall_Model
19:10:05 <int-e> Oh lovely indeed. I especially like "[...] Twitch reserves the right, at your expense, [...]"
19:10:50 <esolangs> [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117880&oldid=117119 * Ais523 * (+55) link [[Flooding Waterfall Model]], not my language but relevant to the M:tG discussion
19:12:03 <ais523> if they ever tried to enforce that clause in full, they would be destroyed by the media
19:12:11 <fizzie> I got a badge on our intranet team page from having had a source control client named after a M:tG card, but it was completely accidental.
19:12:15 <fizzie> (I think it was just "knight" or something, named after a project/group/thing.)
19:13:02 <b_jonas> just "Knight" isn't an M:tG card. it's an M:tG creature type.
19:13:17 <ais523> b_jonas: it was the name of a token, until the rule change to token names
19:13:24 <ais523> but yes, tokens are not cards
19:14:01 <fizzie> It was probably pulled from some database of some kind by someone who didn't pay attention good.
19:14:18 <b_jonas> there are M:tG cards with very generic names admittedly.
19:14:40 <b_jonas> also Slay the Spire seems to have proportionally more generic names than M:tG apparently
19:15:15 <ais523> Slay the Spire naming is weird, many of the names are generic but many of them aren't
19:15:21 <Europe2048> Also, I'm building a bf interepter in Scratch.
19:15:32 <Europe2048> It will have 256 memory cells.
19:15:46 <ais523> incidentally, when I went onto a Netrunner forum to tell people about the TCness proof, it turned out that the creator of Slay the Spire was owner of the forum
19:16:23 <ais523> (the forum came first)
19:17:20 <int-e> Oh they also have one of those lovely "symmetric" arbitration clauses that aren't symmetric at all when you're a consumer and the other party is a billion dollar company.
19:18:21 <ais523> int-e: the funny thing there is, the asymmetry actually ends up benefiting the consumer usually, there's at least one case semi-recently of a company ending up hugely burdened by their own arbitration caluse
19:18:21 <fizzie> Apparently it was for having one called "knight" but also for having one called "launch", which does appear -- https://scryfall.com/card/usg/82/launch is what the 'why I have this badge?' script links to -- to be an actual card.
19:18:41 <ais523> `card-by-name Launch
19:18:43 <HackEso> Launch \ 1U \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant creature \ Enchanted creature has flying. \ When Launch is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, return Launch to its owner's hand. \ US-C \ \ Launch Party \ 3B \ Instant \ As an additional cost to cast this spell, sacrifice a creature. \ Destroy target creature. Its controller loses 2 life. \ RTR-C \ \ Launch the Fleet \ W \ Sorcery \ Strive -- This spell costs {1} more to cast for each target beyond the
19:19:04 <ais523> `card-by-name Rancor
19:19:06 <HackEso> Rancor \ G \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant creature \ Enchanted creature gets +2/+0 and has trample. \ When Rancor is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, return Rancor to its owner's hand. \ UL-C, ARC-C, PC2-C, M13-U, EMA-U, PCA-C, E02-U, A25-U, DDD-C
19:19:17 <ais523> ah, I was wondering if it was a cycle, apparently not though
19:19:26 <ais523> would be a *very* unbalanced cycle if so :-)
19:20:52 <int-e> ais523: I'm not sure whether I agree with the conclusion... to my mind that case was an outlier where the company (I forgot which one) actually lost in arbitration. I don't have any data though.
19:21:08 <ais523> int-e: it was more about the costs to the company
19:21:20 <ais523> I think it was some "arbitration rather than class action" thing
19:21:37 <ais523> and the class action would have been *much* cheaper for the company than a huge number of individual arbitration cases
19:21:49 <ais523> which they had to deal with individually
19:21:57 <int-e> Ah, I don't think I saw that.
19:22:31 <b_jonas> ais523: I think Rancor is a cycle
19:22:34 <b_jonas> is in a cycle
19:22:40 <int-e> The case I saw was a company who lost in arbitration and tried to appeal and found that their ToS said they couldn't do that... so they lost.
19:23:09 <int-e> But it was a while ago and I forgot all the details. :-/
19:24:57 <esolangs> [[Placement]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117881&oldid=97071 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+79) Categories
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19:27:22 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm, it looks like it might be two different cycles, one is Cessation, Slow Motion, Sleeper's Guile, Sluggishness, Rancor; the other is Brilliant Halo, Launch, Despodency, Fiery Mantle, Fortitude.
19:27:33 <b_jonas> I have multiple of these cards
19:27:48 <b_jonas> and I did remember that Rancor is a cycle
19:28:07 <b_jonas> they come from old sets so unbalanced cycles aren't unlikely
19:29:29 <ais523> ooh, I think I have a Reddit account for one of the people in the thread, it surely has to be the same person
19:30:53 <ais523> wow, the Reddit send private message thing isn't working any more
19:30:57 <ais523> how much have they managed to break that site
19:31:19 <ais523> shift-refresh fixed it
19:31:21 <ais523> still, wow
19:32:31 <b_jonas> fizzie: https://www.irregularwebcomic.net/draakslair/viewtopic.php?p=179213&hilit=atog#p179213 is relevant for how easy it is to accidentally name something the same as a M:tG card, so I can easily believe that you named a software the same as a card, it's just that "Knight" doesn't match
19:33:29 <esolangs> [[Arraything]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117882&oldid=117876 * PaxtonPenguin * (+23) When the h
19:33:50 <b_jonas> maybe you called it Minamo, School at Water's Edge instead
19:34:12 <ais523> let's see if this works
19:35:29 <b_jonas> oh yeah, ais523's version control system shares its name with an M:tG card
19:35:51 <b_jonas> so does Apache's
19:35:56 <b_jonas> wow
19:36:48 <ais523> b_jonas: mine also shares its name with a Yu-Gi-Oh! card, which is more notable because it's one of the most famous cards in the game – an entire format is named after it
19:37:18 <b_jonas> nice
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19:37:54 <b_jonas> next we need to find a collectible card game that has a card named "Mercurial"
19:38:33 <ais523> M:tG has Mercurial Spelldancer, but I don't think it has Mercurial as a single word
19:38:41 <b_jonas> oh, that reminds me, what's the Knight card in Settlers of Catan called? is it "Knight"?
19:39:48 <b_jonas> looks like it is "Knight"
19:39:50 <Europe2048> What are you talking about?
19:39:55 <b_jonas> fizzie: ^
19:40:57 <ais523> Europe2048: we're a little offtopic at the moment, talking about cards in card games that have the same name as other things
19:41:51 <b_jonas> the reference to ais's version control software is obscure. it doesn't exist yet and it's called scapegoat.
19:42:20 <Europe2048> ais523: OK!
19:42:59 <ais523> planning software projects is so much easier than actually writing them
19:43:19 <ais523> especially for me at the moment, I was trying to write more of a program earlier today and just couldn't do it
19:45:48 <ais523> at present, it feels like I'm only able to program for about a week at a time, and then it takes a couple of weeks to recover from it
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19:49:02 <Europe2048> "> tromp has joined"
19:49:19 <Europe2048> This isn't the White House.l
19:49:39 <Europe2048> (the l was typed accidentally)
19:50:02 <ais523> turns out that sometimes, some surnames have several letters in common with other surnames
19:53:11 <cpressey> ais523: I spent the week writing a (not-quite-)Scheme to JavaScript compiler.  Which kind of works, but a lot of the library procedures aren't implemented.
19:53:37 <cpressey> It also interprets! And it's written in Lua.
19:53:50 <cpressey> It cheats very much by leaving out tail recursion.
19:54:23 <cpressey> The next step is to implement some esolangs in it.
19:54:33 <ais523> oh right, being a compiler rather than an interpreter, it isn't trivial to implement tail recursion without support in the host language
19:54:50 <cpressey> Yah.
19:54:55 <ais523> is JavaScript allowed to support tail-recursion? if so, I imagine most of the browser engines would implement it
19:55:13 <ais523> some languages have semantics which make tail-recursion an invalid optimisation for one reason or another
19:56:01 <ais523> out of interest, how good is Lua at writing compilers? I don't think I've ever tried that combination
19:56:36 <b_jonas> each of "commit", "clone", "clean", "reset", "restore", "status", are both M:tG card names and git subcommands. They should print a "bisect" instant and add an "index" subcommand.
19:59:11 <ais523> isn't "commit" half an aftermath card? which makes the pronounced card name "commit to memory"
19:59:28 <ais523> but the names of the halves are treated separately by the game, so I expect it counts
20:00:47 <b_jonas> I'm not sure but I think the aftermath cards just have the first name as their name unless they're on the stack cast with aftermath
20:02:26 <b_jonas> cpressey: is this the scheme-like language that you were talking about a few days ago?
20:11:18 <esolangs> [[Arraything]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117883&oldid=117882 * PaxtonPenguin * (+43)
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20:20:08 <zzo38> I think JavaScript is allowed to implement tail-recursion in some cases only, as far as I know
20:22:21 <zzo38> Planning software project easier than writing it might also depend what plans are being made, I think
20:23:59 <zzo38> One thing I wanted to design (and might be good with better discussion of it) is operating system design.
20:24:07 <zzo38> b_jonas: What is "bisect" instant going to mean?
20:25:00 <ais523> presumably some sort of removal spell
20:25:21 <ais523> although there is already Saw In Half (too new to be in the bot, I think), which changes one creature into two tokens with each have half the stats
20:25:27 <ais523> I think, at least
20:26:01 <ais523> not 100% sure, it's hard for me to remember all the details of a card that's never been particularly relevant to me
20:39:17 <b_jonas> yeah, I'm thinking it's a creature removal spell
20:39:29 <esolangs> [[Fm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117885&oldid=69397 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) Category
20:41:32 <b_jonas> or it could be a red removal spell that kills a creature or artifact
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20:53:55 <cpressey> Was torn away for a bit there.  ais523: I don't know if tail calls can be optimized in JS - I suspect they can't but only because I can't recall reading about it, and I know I've read about some optimizations JS compilers do.  This is the largest project I've done in Lua, and it's not much worse than using say Python, but it's a bit goofier /
20:53:55 <cpressey> less intuitive.
20:55:23 <cpressey> b_jonas: Yes, it's that one.  I don't know how similar to actual Scheme it will turn out to be, but it's, erm, "mutually intelligible".
21:02:13 <cpressey> According to some web searches, the ES6 spec permits implementations to do TCO, but as of 2023 the only engine that actually does it is Safari.  I wouldn't've guessed that.
21:02:51 <ais523> cpressey: Firefox and Chromium both have very advanced debuggers, maybe they don't implement TCO because it would mess with the debugger
21:16:23 <cpressey> It is apparent that they Have Reasons Not To, whatever they exactly are.  Apparently Chromium tried, back in 2016, but then backed out.  Anyway, it's no matter.  The functions I'll be writing in this don't do much recursion at all, and it iteration is needed, it can be done in library functions.  And if I ever DO feel like writing a
21:16:23 <cpressey> trampolining compiler, I now have something I can extend in that direction instead of starting from scratch.
21:16:58 <cpressey> Actually, if there are recursion schemes, can't there also be iteration schemes?  Instead of fold(), you have iter()
21:17:41 <b_jonas> there's also the compromise where you optimize some tail calls but don't guarantee optimizing all of them
21:17:53 <b_jonas> real world compilers do that
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