00:53:48 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:54:46 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 01:04:38 [[^!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117820&oldid=117776 * Ninesquared81 * (+774) /* Examples */ 01:09:51 [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117821&oldid=117131 * McChuck * (+44) Listack 01:12:23 [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117822&oldid=117821 * McChuck * (+78) /* Listack */ 01:13:09 [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117823&oldid=117822 * McChuck * (+32) /* Listack */ 01:28:26 zzo38: Is it PuzzleScript? 01:29:32 No, it is not PuzzleScript. 01:36:11 I had made up a different one, which in my opinion is much better in many ways, although it could be arguable. 01:49:35 -!- craigo has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 02:00:34 -!- craigo has joined. 02:11:17 [[^!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117824&oldid=117820 * Ninesquared81 * (+8) /* Get number */ 02:34:01 (Although, different programs have their own advantages and disadvantages, anyways.) 02:44:48 -!- awewsomegamer has joined. 03:20:58 -!- cpressey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 03:22:50 [[Funge-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117825&oldid=107314 * BoundedBeans * (+2171) Fixed rcfunge links 03:51:31 -!- craigo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:18:18 -!- awewsomegamer has quit (Quit: WeeChat 4.0.5). 04:28:31 -!- simcop2387 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:28:32 -!- perlbot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:29:03 -!- simcop2387 has joined. 04:34:24 -!- perlbot has joined. 05:10:47 [[MemPanic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117826&oldid=70862 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) Wayback 05:17:01 [[Multiprogramming]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117827&oldid=69312 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) Wayback 05:23:44 [[YoptaScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117828&oldid=110150 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+124) Categories 05:24:50 [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117829&oldid=117817 * None1 * (+174) /* Is Category:Unimplemented really neccessarry? */ 05:32:30 [[!!Fuck Python interpreter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117830&oldid=113539 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+34) Link, category 05:37:38 [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117831&oldid=117829 * None1 * (+85) /* Is Category:Unimplemented really neccessarry? */ 05:47:15 [[lang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117832&oldid=117796 * None1 * (+29) /* Specs */ 05:47:53 [[No-code esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117833&oldid=115873 * None1 * (+57) 06:01:26 [[lang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117834&oldid=117832 * None1 * (+31) /* Specs */ 06:09:28 -!- arseniiv has joined. 06:18:15 holá 06:24:46 [[Brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117835 * None1 * (+410) Created page with "Brainfuck is an esolang invented by [[User:None1]], it is very stupid. ==Commands== The only valid program - Brainfuck increases the accumulator. ==Examples== ===Increase the accumulator=== Brainfuck ==Interpreter== ===[[Python]]=== a,x=input(),0 if a==' 06:32:43 [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117836&oldid=117835 * None1 * (+21) /* Interpreter */ 06:33:54 -!- cpressey has joined. 06:35:15 [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117837&oldid=117761 * None1 * (+64) /* General languages */ 06:35:44 [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117838&oldid=117766 * None1 * (+64) /* My Esolangs */ 06:36:16 [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117839&oldid=117836 * None1 * (+32) 06:38:57 [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117840&oldid=117839 * None1 * (+119) 06:40:47 [[This esolang is a brainfuck derivative]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117841&oldid=117788 * None1 * (+17) /* Interpreter */ 06:50:33 [[Chefs Kiss]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117842&oldid=117809 * None1 * (+11) 07:05:41 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 07:06:02 -!- shikhin has changed hostmask to ~shikhin@offtopia/offtopian. 07:07:58 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 07:24:15 zzo38: I once started designing a language where the domain objects were tabletop game elements (cards, dice, counters, ...) 07:25:50 And then the programs would've been instructions that the players followed, like "If the card on the top of the discard pile is a queen, move the yetllow counter to the'"go' square" 07:26:31 I never finished it because I couldn't think of a satisfying way to make it TC given that the number of objects on the table would be finite 07:26:53 . o O ( What if the card on the top of the discard pile is a pawn... ) 07:34:27 An unsatisfying way to make it TC: say there can be a board with an infinite number of numbered squares. 07:36:02 This leads me to think, it's not enough to have an infinite set of something.  All the things in the set have to stand in relation to one another 07:36:38 . o O ( Ooh what if the discard pile is a Jenga tower... and you have MtG-like abilities to recover, well, blocks from the discard pile, but only if you manage to get it without knocking over the tower... ) 07:37:37 (not programming related... just following the idea of having non-cards on a discard pile, which can lead to questionable stability.) 07:47:29 int-e: I eventually got the queen/pawn joke, but "MtG-like abilities to recover blocks" is quite beyond me -- but then, I don't MtG. 07:51:18 I _think_ you might be able to get Turing completeness in the same way MtG is claimed to achieve it, by abusing the action stack (don't quote me on this) 07:51:28 The discard pile in MtG is called the graveyard (because cards that represented killed monsters go there), and there are some spells that get cards back from the graveyard into your hand or into play. (There's also a concept of removing a card from game completely.) 07:51:47 cpressey: and I used "block" because Jenga doesn't have cards. 08:10:28 -!- __monty__ has joined. 08:13:23 int-e: you mean https://scryfall.com/card/und/2/awol ? 08:14:28 b_jonas: I think you read more into "completely" than I intended :P 08:15:26 ante zone? chaos confetti? 08:15:33 hehe 08:16:27 There's also this kind of permanent "removal": https://scryfall.com/card/ugl/70/blacker-lotus 08:17:04 I remember being impressed by this distinction In a very old D&D game for 8-bit computers, where characters could be Conscious, Unconscious, Dead or Gone 08:17:19 If they were Gone they couldn't be resurrected 08:26:39 int-e: yes, that's the chaos confetti one 08:27:24 ah 08:27:50 cpressey: yeah, some D&D variants have an extra step, because if you have at least a small part of the body then it's easier to resurrect the dead, and if they died only a few times ago then it's even easier and more importantly they might not even lose a level from the resurrection then 08:28:47 "a few times ago" is kind of cute too 08:28:53 (turns, I guess) 08:29:49 oops, a few turns ago 08:30:56 and these days there are all sorts of programs, like email clients, that have the concept of deleting an object to the trashcan or recycle bin, and deleting it completely so it's not even in the trashcan 08:31:55 oh, and I think D&D has a weird three-way distinction between conscious with positive hitpoints, unconscious on zero hitpoint, and unconscious on negative hit points 09:06:55 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 09:22:56 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 09:34:32 It should make a weird two-way distinction on having +0 hit points and having -0 hit points too.  I will write Wizards of the Coast a strongly-worded letter on this matter. 09:35:11 In other news, I have written a (not-actually-)Scheme to (not-actually-)JavaScript compiler, in Lua 09:35:47 It's (not-actually-), but it's quite close. 09:36:40 . o O ( At least the Lua is real. ) 09:41:07 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:43:18 I realize a lot of my language ideas aren't weird enough to be "esolangs" anymore, but they're too weird for the "proglangdesign" channel.  (Which seems to be more about pet languages and complaining about systems issues, anyway.) 09:44:28 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Client closed). 09:53:17 -!- cpressey has joined. 10:01:54 -!- wib_jonas has joined. 10:02:18 oh, and D&D creatures can also have the status where they died of old age or their soul is destroyed so even True Resurrection can't fix them 10:03:23 apparently there's another condition, True Resurrection can't resurrect creatures who have been dead for longer than 10 years. odd. 10:04:01 probably there so you don't try to resurrect famous people who died like fifty years ago 10:11:45 -!- Thelie has joined. 10:30:52 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Client closed). 10:41:52 -!- cpressey has joined. 10:45:59 I found a very interesting quote about Lisp in a book about Modula-3: 10:45:59 "Lisp is the hybrid of the lambda calculus and the theory of a pairing function" 10:46:33 I wouldn't but it that way exactly, myself, but it's an interesting take 10:46:36 *put 10:50:59 fungot, why does worm not rhyme with dorm? 10:53:49 fungot's not here, man 10:58:20 sword doesn't rhyme with word either 11:00:35 [[Listack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117843&oldid=117485 * McChuck * (+125) /* Advanced Control Flow */ 11:02:55 That sword alone can't stop. 11:03:53 Why is it that 'prospect', 'prospective' and 'perspective' are all words, but 'perspect' is not. 11:05:38 fizzie: because some idiot brand named plexiglass as perspex and perspect conflicts with that 11:28:00 [[Hello++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117844&oldid=94015 * Harumafuji Kohei * (+213) I hope this works 11:51:36 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Client closed). 11:52:50 that said, I think it's fine if you use "perspect" as a verb instead of "project perspectively" 11:57:10 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 11:59:35 -!- cpressey has joined. 12:00:39 -!- tromp has joined. 12:06:02 -!- arseniiv_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 12:14:00 [[User:Harumafuji Kohei]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117845 * Harumafuji Kohei * (+23) ok 12:19:24 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 12:22:35 An unsatisfying way to make it TC: say there can be a board with an infinite number of numbered squares. => what about unbounded card piles? 12:29:37 arseniiv_: That's slightly better, but it would need an unbounded card deck.  I play the 18,091,716 of Clubs. 12:31:40 Maybe the positions between objects could be measured in real numbers with unlimited precision, and those distances... nah, see, tabletop games are supposed to abstract things like that away.  They're more topological than geometrical. 12:32:46 Not only are tabletops topological, they're often discrete 12:34:01 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv. 12:35:01 cpressey: why are unbounded card ranks needed? Like, one can encode something just in the sequence of cards stacked 12:35:16 arseniiv: OK, true. 12:35:37 . o O ( But card counters are much cooler. ) 12:37:07 You still need an unbounded number of cards though, that was my sticking point.  For whatever reason I was thinking of it very much in concrete terms.  And no one could afford that many cards. (This was all many years ago.) 12:38:08 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 12:38:35 Maybe cards could be like "fuel" that's used to ensure computations terminate in some contexts 12:39:04 (I'd be less concerned with it being TC or not these days.) 12:39:28 -!- tromp has joined. 12:46:16 cpressey: no, you'd just have an unbounded number of copies of a finite number of different cards, like as many Forests as the players need 12:47:01 it wouldn't be the 18091716 of clubs, unless perhaps you want to represent that with an ace of clubs with 18091715 +1 counters on it 12:47:35 btw on fungot not being available: why? 12:48:15 something about fizzie not wanting to troubleshoot something about identd, or something 12:48:30 arseniiv: he is implemented in an esoteric language and so is hard to change 12:48:32 or maybe I'm confusing that with another bot 12:48:45 wib_jonas: Docker 12:48:51 Docker is the solution to everything 12:49:46 Actually, I had a bot here once too 12:50:34 Adapting it to work with "ircs" was something I had to research, but in the end, not black magic or anything 12:50:47 one of my friends thinks the same about Docker; also another one asks right now what’s a pairing function. I think it’s probably that Cantor ℕ × ℕ → ℕ bijection? 12:51:54 wib_jonas: ah, I probably get it now, libera.chat expects this new more secure login 12:52:35 arseniiv: Yes, Cantor, and later others: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pairing_function  -- I think in that book they were talking more abstractly, about cons cells 12:53:13 thanks I’ll relay! 12:54:54 now that the topic of board games giving rise to esolangs was established, it occurred to me if one could somehow make a game with entities forming an inductive data type (or an inductive family of types) 12:55:31 something less mundane like trees of some kind 12:57:32 "no one could afford that many cards" => the M:tG solution to this is threefold. (1) normally you need to own a physical copy of a card manufactured by Wizards if you want to use it in a tournament-legal game, even if you use a proxy to represent that card in game instead. a card moved to a zone is an object. you can't create cards or add new cards 12:57:32 during tournament-legal gameplay, only move cards that are already in the game or in the sideboard, but when the rules want to create a new object regardless, it instructs you to create a token or a copy of a spell. tokens and copies of spells don't have an underlying card that they reference, and so an unlimited number of them can be created 12:57:33 during the game without owning cards that you buy from M:tG. (2) the number of cards in your deck is bounded. the rules don't give a specific number, but they say that the deck should be small enough that one person can shuffle it. that's a small enough limit that I have more (cheap) cards than I could put in a deck. (3) in limited tournaments, the 12:57:33 tournament organizer must provide an unlimited number of the five eternal basic lands, and during deckbuilding you can add as many of them into your deck. (you may have to return the lands to the organizer afterwards of course). 13:00:11 arseniiv: hard to be sure without context, but I think no, that's just the cons function that makes an ordered pair, where the car of the resulting pair is the first argument of the function, and the cdr of the resulting pari is the second argument to the function. this is useful only in a language that has multi-argument functions (or at least 13:00:12 curried ones) 13:01:56 arseniiv: doesn't basically any discrete but potentially infinite game work with inductive types? 13:01:57 wib_jonas: might be this too, yeah 13:02:42 doesn't basically any discrete but potentially infinite game work with inductive types? => I mean, in a sufficiently transparent way. A puny deck of cards doesn’t feel like a value of an inductive type! 13:02:53 [[Miser]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117846&oldid=113132 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+179) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the Miser programming language on GitHub, changed the category tag Unimplemented to Implemented, and supplemented the category 2023. 13:04:06 arseniiv: sure, but this is about the game state, not just a deck of cards packed away 13:04:51 some games like Poker have a very simple type for game states, but games like M:tG have ridiculously complicated ones 13:05:30 wib_jonas: hmmmmmm. But again, the whole state feels like too much too, yeah your note about M:tG shows this exactly 13:06:03 what I intended is for players to manipulate data like they manipulate single cards, pieces and other things 13:06:20 of course a lot of it is hard to manipulate freely in game, so attempts for simulations with M:tG: like the ones ais523 does usually use very restricted subsets of the states 13:06:38 this would probably be clumsy in most cases, of course, with practicality and interestingness being the heart of the question 13:08:08 btw I sometimes try to invent algebraic-y combinatory decks of cards which would allow interesting simple games with that deck (something like what was done with Set, but Set is too simple) 13:09:04 [[Miser]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117847&oldid=117846 * None1 * (+25) /* Interpreter */ 13:09:40 Set is a bounded game (if the number of players is bounded at least), I specifically said unbounded games to avoid that sort of thign 13:09:58 I had a peculiar result with Möbius like ranks which allow for there to be ranks that are opposite to each other, or for each rank there to be two opposites, depending on where do we try to draw a prism or antiprism on a Möbius strip 13:10:25 yeah this is not about Turing-complete games and inductive types, I digressed 13:15:21 arseniiv: Yeah, the problem was/is that it only accepts "admin" commands with a specific "user@cloak" suffix, and due to some inexplicable indentd breakage I'm now "~user@cloak" instead, so it refuses to obey me and join the channel. 13:15:25 It'd be quite easy to just patch that ~ in there, but I wanted to fix that identd situation, just haven't gotten around to it. 13:18:06 -!- fungot has joined. 13:18:16 (I just added the ~.) 13:18:30 fungot: How was your extended vacation off the channel? 13:18:31 fizzie: good lord, mr fnord has gained... uh... something warp flux thingy worked. answer: " quite well, the u of o dominates eugene or, but, which one shows more idle time? 13:18:40 interesting 13:18:46 Maybe a little more incoherent than normal. 13:19:50 “mr fnord” is interesting too, though it should be by all means the expected state transition 13:19:52 [[User:None1/InDev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117848&oldid=117602 * None1 * (+371) 13:19:52 `style 13:19:54 style? No such file or directory 13:20:02 `prefix 13:20:03 prefix? No such file or directory 13:20:05 If it was written in a proper language I'd probably just make it do the IRCv3 `account-tag` thing for command authentication. 13:20:07 `prefixes 13:20:08 uh my poor memory 13:20:09 Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \. 13:20:12 thanks 13:20:20 ^style 13:20:20 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld elon enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube 13:20:30 hm what is the current one 13:20:36 "irc" 13:20:40 That's why there's a * next to it. 13:20:51 (A very easy-to-miss *.) 13:21:07 ah ah now I see; uh 13:21:28 I thought it was one of parliaments 13:21:54 though then mr fnord is not as expected 13:22:00 They may not talk that much about warp flux thingies in the parliaments. 13:22:09 Although who knows, maybe they do. 13:22:21 ^style ukparl 13:22:21 Selected style: ukparl (UK Parliament debates from brexit referendum to late 2018) 13:22:21 reasonable 13:22:30 I overlooked that part too 13:22:34 fungot: What do you think of the tax rate nowadays? 13:22:35 fizzie: government new clause 1. one interesting point from the hon. and learned friend the minister for that. i have an opportunity to make the government think of themselves as dictators, but 13:23:01 it’s so homey 13:24:55 fungot: I think someone told me that freezing the income tax bands like they did instead of updating them in line with inflation is in fact effectively a rather large tax increase, just in a more sneaky fashion. What do you think about that? 13:24:55 fizzie: he has the better cakes, i may, from september, we have the right to the protection of a british citizen, to whom governments should have a direct opportunity to do the right things, local developers to do precisely that. 13:25:16 Oh, well, if we get the better cakes I guess it's worth it. 13:28:01 [[User:None1/InDev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117849&oldid=117848 * None1 * (+319) 13:28:30 🎂 13:29:25 [[User:None1/InDev]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117850&oldid=117849 * None1 * (+69) /* I/O */ 13:29:55 [[User:None1/InDev]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117851&oldid=117850 * None1 * (+4) 13:30:06 `? fungot 13:30:06 int-e: to the hon. and learned friend the member for leeds north through the northern ireland 13:30:08 fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason. 13:30:13 [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117852&oldid=116181 * PaxtonPenguin * (+103) 13:30:18 <3 13:30:45 [[User:None1/InDev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117853&oldid=117851 * None1 * (+66) /* Commands */ 13:31:59 arseniiv: would you count Hercules and the hydra as a game? it works on trees. http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2008-03-27.1537.html http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2008-03-16.1534.ordinaux-et-hydres.html#d.2008-03-16.1534 http://www.madore.org/~david/math/hydra0.xhtml http://www.madore.org/~david/math/hydra.xhtml (these are two 13:31:59 different games, the hydra and the dire hydra) 13:32:09 [[Chefs Kiss]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117854&oldid=117842 * PaxtonPenguin * (+18) 13:32:14 or do the lambda crocodiles count as a game? 13:32:47 lambda crocodiles sound familiar hmm 13:33:21 http://worrydream.com/AlligatorEggs/ explicitly calls it a game, but of course they might be using that word differently from what youw ant 13:34:16 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:35:12 wait, fungot returned? hi fungot 13:35:13 wib_jonas: i have to be clear, the government i have nothing good going fnord and grieving families to have the best of the public sector. 13:35:14 [[AMONGUSISABIGSUSSYBAKAHAHAHAHAHATHISLANGUAGEISREALLYCOOLPLEASEUSEITMYLIFEDEPENDSONITORELSEPLSPLSPLSPLSPLSPLSPLSkahyghdfhm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117855&oldid=114132 * PaxtonPenguin * (+17) 13:35:22 `? prefixes 13:35:24 Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \. 13:36:58 arseniiv: According to WP the game of Nim has been adaptedto graphs ("The starting board is a disconnected graph, and players take turns to remove adjacent vertices." is all it says though?)  So I wonder if it could be adapted to inductive types.  I don't know. 13:37:06 perlbot prefixes 13:37:06 wib_jonas: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =. 13:38:01 cpressey: oh huh 13:38:18 If we get a ,-prefixed bot, it'll look a little confusing in that list, no matter whether it's `..., commabot ,, ...` or `..., commabot , , ...`. 13:39:07 fungot, why does worm not rhyme with dorm? int-e wanted to know 13:39:07 wib_jonas: is the hon. and learned friend the member for glasgow north, for the scottish government the powers to the tenant to the county, the proud and justified. it and the associated secretary of states and government 13:39:27 (I've been thinking of (re)using ! for `esolangs` if it ever gets any functionality that's user-triggerable, like logsearching or something.) 13:39:27 fungot: When will Unicode become Turing complete? 13:39:28 wib_jonas: i have a number, has a capacity of about 690 people in my local police, i have to make a public statement, which may have a sustained and at what amazon, we are a country of only 5.5 million. through the bill, 13:39:40 fungot, have you ever decried anything? 13:39:40 wib_jonas: to fnord part of the uk, creating a new, integrated and fully support the government, 13:39:51 fungot, is a "weatherspoon" the propeller thing under a weathercock that spins to show how fast the wind is? 13:39:54 [[User:PaxtonPenguin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117856&oldid=117807 * PaxtonPenguin * (+23) Me when 13:40:08 that's a good list of things to decry tbh 13:40:32 arseniiv: I very much do not understand most of the things in type theory.  I'm not sure if I want to go down that road or not. 13:48:29 fizzie: my plan, if I ever again make a queryable IRC bot (that doesn't just take over a full channel and answer there) is to again respond to their irc nick, but also have six three-character shortcuts for the six most frequent commands, namely -0= -=0 0-= 0=- =-0 =0- ; unless it's a bot that implements Niagara, in which case the shortcut is the 13:48:30 three-character waterfall ~|_ or the shorter two-character waterfall ~| for brevity 13:49:35 single-character prefixes are annoying, HackEso and lambdabot both get triggered by accident two often 13:49:43 even when it's two characters but the second is space 13:51:09 and yes, I'm saying that despite that I first programmed jevalbot to be triggerable by a single character plus space, and then, when someone asked, I added a setting to make the space optional, and that option was used for whatever instance used ) as its invocation shortcut 13:56:24 [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117857&oldid=117191 * None1 * (+246) /* Delete a page */ new section 13:56:58 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Client closed). 13:59:37 -!- cpressey has joined. 14:03:15 [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117858&oldid=117838 * None1 * (+318) /* My projects about esolangs */ 14:05:14 [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117859&oldid=117858 * None1 * (+34) /* jitbf */ 14:06:49 [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117860&oldid=117859 * None1 * (+0) /* jitbf */ WTF Jul. is July not June 14:07:28 [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117861&oldid=117860 * None1 * (+1) /* jitbf */ 14:09:10 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117862&oldid=117742 * Lilchiky * (+169) /* */ 14:09:25 [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117863&oldid=117852 * None1 * (+84) /* Commands */ 14:14:38 [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117864&oldid=117863 * None1 * (+217) /* Commands */ 14:15:00 [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117865&oldid=117864 * None1 * (+0) /* Commands */ 14:16:12 [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117866&oldid=117865 * None1 * (-11) /* Commands */ 14:18:53 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117867&oldid=117862 * None1 * (+373) /* Recursion */ 14:29:36 [[Category:Accumulator-based]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117868&oldid=116430 * Lilchiky * (+85) adding onto this 14:30:40 [[Bawkbawk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117869&oldid=117258 * Lilchiky * (+31) a new cat 14:31:00 [[Category:Accumulator-based]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117870&oldid=117868 * Lilchiky * (-1) 14:46:04 "Inductive types usually come with a function to prove properties about them." (WP again) -- I dunno about "usually" -- I don't know what you'd call an inductive type that doesn't support proof by induction -- isn't that just a recursive type? 14:58:30 -!- wib_jonas has quit (Quit: Client closed). 14:59:08 -!- wib_jonas has joined. 14:59:41 [[Chefs Kiss]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117871&oldid=117854 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+114) Stub, categories 15:01:53 -!- Thelie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:04:59 [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117872&oldid=112607 * B jonas * (+216) /* Todo */ pointer machine 15:09:06 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:19:07 -!- wib_jonas has quit (Quit: Client closed). 15:32:04 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:35:58 -!- arseniiv has joined. 15:36:35 Ah, craziness!  I just discovered by accident that L. C. Paulson has a blog on GitHub: https://lawrencecpaulson.github.io/ 15:43:10 nice 15:50:02 [[Swapfuck/Implementation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117873&oldid=86422 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) Back, category 15:51:29 https://quoteme.github.io/posts/sheaves_in_minecraft 15:54:24 -!- Cale has joined. 16:03:50 OK I *kind of* followed that :) 16:06:04 [[Arraything]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117874&oldid=117819 * PaxtonPenguin * (+186) 16:06:14 [[Arraything]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117875&oldid=117874 * PaxtonPenguin * (+1) 16:06:42 [[Arraything]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117876&oldid=117875 * PaxtonPenguin * (+6) 16:07:24 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Client closed). 16:08:23 [[Parrot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117877&oldid=11377 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) Category 16:12:38 -!- cpressey has joined. 16:23:01 -!- Franciman has left (WeeChat 3.8). 16:31:34 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Client closed). 17:10:26 -!- Thelie has joined. 17:30:43 -!- craigo has joined. 17:30:58 -!- craigo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:44:15 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:16:41 -!- craigo has joined. 18:30:18 [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Python program which generates code that prints the certain text]]" 18:31:41 [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117878&oldid=117857 * Ais523 * (+134) /* Delete a page */ deleted 18:33:23 -!- Thelie has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 18:35:36 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:36:27 b_jonas: there's a TCness construction for Magic: the Gathering where the only game object you need unlimited quantities of is +1/+1 counters (although the program is represented by tokens, you only need finitely many of them to represent any given program) 18:36:53 although, the current "best" (=simplest and most flexible) construction stores data in the quantity of tokens and in the amount of damage marked on them, so needs arbitrarily many tokens 18:38:05 incidentally, there's no rule saying that the five land-typed-and-non-snow basic lands have to be always available – they do have to keep being reprinted in order to remain legal in Standard 18:40:48 ais523: isn't there now a new rule that you can replace a card in your deck with one of the five basic lands in *constructed* if you registered with a deck but it turns out you can't play one of your cards because the physical card is damaged or some similar problem? 18:42:06 I don't think that rule's new, I remember it from the first time I looked at the tournament rules 18:42:29 but I'm not sure specifically which lands it allows 18:42:46 -!- arseniiv has joined. 18:43:16 Netrunner also has a rule allowing cards to be replaced in order to make a deck legal, but the prescribed replacement cards actually don't exist in the game 18:44:00 e.g. if your deck doesn't have enough agenda points, you have to replace cards with vanilla 4/2 agendas until you have enough, but there are no vanilla 4/2 agendas printed 18:44:03 what do you mean by "don't exist in the game"? 18:44:08 I think the idea is that you proxy one 18:44:15 I see 18:45:10 (a vanilla 4/2 agenda would be really bad and numerous cards are strictly better than it – I think the intention is for the replacement card to be worse than any card you might play intentionally) 18:46:24 I think I've seen something like that in casual to define how goldfishing work. My preference is that the goldfish player has a deck of 60 cards of Forest (or whatever number of cards is normal in the format); but other people prefer 60 cards with no type or mana cost 18:46:50 that got updated to 60 Wastes at one point, because the basic land types on the opponents' lands ended up mattering sometimes 18:47:04 * at some point 18:47:42 and, well, it's more symmetrical to pick the basic land that isn't part of a cycle 18:49:47 -!- Europe2048 has joined. 18:49:57 Hi everyone! 18:50:30 ais523: I think the principled solution would be to use Plains because there are almost no creatures with plainswalk; I prefer Forests, but if I play a deck with cards with forestwalk then I would use Plains instead 18:50:31 this reminds me, I proved a language Turing-complete for a team of people working on M:tG Turing-completeness, simplifying the construction, but haven't been able to tell them about it because they communicate via a forum that needs a Twitch account to log into 18:50:59 ais523: that must be the Scryfall forum 18:51:02 forestwalk doesn't usually matter against an all-land deck, unless you're giving the opponent creatures to block with 18:51:07 b_jonas: actually no, MTG Salvation 18:51:15 Please finish this: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Nice 18:51:16 right, that one 18:52:46 So you agree with me? 18:53:25 Europe2048: the page *was* finished, but it was using images illegally stolen from other websites 18:53:26 so they had to be deleted 18:53:47 So now you have to remake 'em, all by yourself. 18:53:52 no I don't 18:54:10 Why? 18:54:37 because that isn't how obligations work 18:54:41 ais523: so why can't you get an account on twitch? have they started to require phone verification for all new accounts or some such nonsense? 18:54:49 b_jonas: I don't agree with their terms of service 18:55:18 including parts that would impact you if you don't stream? 18:55:25 s/would/would not/ 18:55:47 their terms of service is quite weird for sure 18:55:58 but most of the weird rules are for streaming or for twitch chat 18:56:09 b_jonas: last time I looked they had a rather overreaching indemnification clause 18:56:11 [[Talk:Nice]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117879&oldid=117372 * Europe2048 * (+183) 18:56:21 hmm, I'll look at that 18:56:57 I imagine the entire ToS has changed since – those things tend to have a lot of churn – but it's still not something I particularly want to get involved with 18:57:34 Is there any newsgroup on Usenet that is suitable to write about Turing-completeness of Magic: the Gathering? 18:57:58 zzo38: technically yes, but it's unlikely anyone is still reading it 18:58:31 Usenet used to be the primary forum for discussing Magic: the Gathering a couple of decades ago, and as such there's at least one newsgroup for general M:tG discussion 18:58:39 although I'm not 100% confident about what it was called 18:59:33 I think it started rec.games., but there's a chance it was in alt. 19:00:34 oh the ToS definitely keeps changing and growing for sure 19:01:52 Wizards hosted a web forum about M:tG and more for a while, but they sadly removed it from the web since. that forum did contain a lot of useful information. 19:02:13 they also turned off Gatherer comments 19:02:21 -!- arseniiv has quit (Quit: gone too far). 19:05:55 https://www.twitch.tv/p/en/legal/terms-of-service/#a-indemnification ah, this is probably what you're talking about 19:07:21 wow, yes, that clause is *still* ridiculous 19:07:26 yes it is 19:07:46 I guess in that case you'll have to find other contacts for someone involved 19:08:16 I have been trying 19:08:35 at this point the easier approach seems to be to find someone who already has a Twitch account and would be willing to relay the message 19:08:41 or write up on http://nethack4.org/pastebin/unfinished-mtg-tc-combo.html and hope they read it 19:08:54 it seems weird to edit a pastebin 19:09:05 oh, that's a pastebin 19:09:05 even though I can do it, due to having control of the server it's implemented on 19:09:06 hmm 19:09:24 I thought you had something outside of the pastebin 19:09:31 it's on the wiki 19:09:35 https://esolangs.org/wiki/Flooding_Waterfall_Model 19:10:05 Oh lovely indeed. I especially like "[...] Twitch reserves the right, at your expense, [...]" 19:10:50 [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117880&oldid=117119 * Ais523 * (+55) link [[Flooding Waterfall Model]], not my language but relevant to the M:tG discussion 19:12:03 if they ever tried to enforce that clause in full, they would be destroyed by the media 19:12:11 I got a badge on our intranet team page from having had a source control client named after a M:tG card, but it was completely accidental. 19:12:15 (I think it was just "knight" or something, named after a project/group/thing.) 19:13:02 just "Knight" isn't an M:tG card. it's an M:tG creature type. 19:13:17 b_jonas: it was the name of a token, until the rule change to token names 19:13:24 but yes, tokens are not cards 19:14:01 It was probably pulled from some database of some kind by someone who didn't pay attention good. 19:14:18 there are M:tG cards with very generic names admittedly. 19:14:40 also Slay the Spire seems to have proportionally more generic names than M:tG apparently 19:15:15 Slay the Spire naming is weird, many of the names are generic but many of them aren't 19:15:21 Also, I'm building a bf interepter in Scratch. 19:15:32 It will have 256 memory cells. 19:15:46 incidentally, when I went onto a Netrunner forum to tell people about the TCness proof, it turned out that the creator of Slay the Spire was owner of the forum 19:16:23 (the forum came first) 19:17:20 Oh they also have one of those lovely "symmetric" arbitration clauses that aren't symmetric at all when you're a consumer and the other party is a billion dollar company. 19:18:21 int-e: the funny thing there is, the asymmetry actually ends up benefiting the consumer usually, there's at least one case semi-recently of a company ending up hugely burdened by their own arbitration caluse 19:18:21 Apparently it was for having one called "knight" but also for having one called "launch", which does appear -- https://scryfall.com/card/usg/82/launch is what the 'why I have this badge?' script links to -- to be an actual card. 19:18:41 `card-by-name Launch 19:18:43 Launch \ 1U \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant creature \ Enchanted creature has flying. \ When Launch is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, return Launch to its owner's hand. \ US-C \ \ Launch Party \ 3B \ Instant \ As an additional cost to cast this spell, sacrifice a creature. \ Destroy target creature. Its controller loses 2 life. \ RTR-C \ \ Launch the Fleet \ W \ Sorcery \ Strive -- This spell costs {1} more to cast for each target beyond the 19:19:04 `card-by-name Rancor 19:19:06 Rancor \ G \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant creature \ Enchanted creature gets +2/+0 and has trample. \ When Rancor is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, return Rancor to its owner's hand. \ UL-C, ARC-C, PC2-C, M13-U, EMA-U, PCA-C, E02-U, A25-U, DDD-C 19:19:17 ah, I was wondering if it was a cycle, apparently not though 19:19:26 would be a *very* unbalanced cycle if so :-) 19:20:52 ais523: I'm not sure whether I agree with the conclusion... to my mind that case was an outlier where the company (I forgot which one) actually lost in arbitration. I don't have any data though. 19:21:08 int-e: it was more about the costs to the company 19:21:20 I think it was some "arbitration rather than class action" thing 19:21:37 and the class action would have been *much* cheaper for the company than a huge number of individual arbitration cases 19:21:49 which they had to deal with individually 19:21:57 Ah, I don't think I saw that. 19:22:31 ais523: I think Rancor is a cycle 19:22:34 is in a cycle 19:22:40 The case I saw was a company who lost in arbitration and tried to appeal and found that their ToS said they couldn't do that... so they lost. 19:23:09 But it was a while ago and I forgot all the details. :-/ 19:24:57 [[Placement]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117881&oldid=97071 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+79) Categories 19:25:11 -!- __monty__ has quit (Quit: leaving). 19:27:22 ais523: hmm, it looks like it might be two different cycles, one is Cessation, Slow Motion, Sleeper's Guile, Sluggishness, Rancor; the other is Brilliant Halo, Launch, Despodency, Fiery Mantle, Fortitude. 19:27:33 I have multiple of these cards 19:27:48 and I did remember that Rancor is a cycle 19:28:07 they come from old sets so unbalanced cycles aren't unlikely 19:29:29 ooh, I think I have a Reddit account for one of the people in the thread, it surely has to be the same person 19:30:53 wow, the Reddit send private message thing isn't working any more 19:30:57 how much have they managed to break that site 19:31:19 shift-refresh fixed it 19:31:21 still, wow 19:32:31 fizzie: https://www.irregularwebcomic.net/draakslair/viewtopic.php?p=179213&hilit=atog#p179213 is relevant for how easy it is to accidentally name something the same as a M:tG card, so I can easily believe that you named a software the same as a card, it's just that "Knight" doesn't match 19:33:29 [[Arraything]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117882&oldid=117876 * PaxtonPenguin * (+23) When the h 19:33:50 maybe you called it Minamo, School at Water's Edge instead 19:34:12 let's see if this works 19:35:29 oh yeah, ais523's version control system shares its name with an M:tG card 19:35:51 so does Apache's 19:35:56 wow 19:36:48 b_jonas: mine also shares its name with a Yu-Gi-Oh! card, which is more notable because it's one of the most famous cards in the game – an entire format is named after it 19:37:18 nice 19:37:21 -!- cpressey has joined. 19:37:54 next we need to find a collectible card game that has a card named "Mercurial" 19:38:33 M:tG has Mercurial Spelldancer, but I don't think it has Mercurial as a single word 19:38:41 oh, that reminds me, what's the Knight card in Settlers of Catan called? is it "Knight"? 19:39:48 looks like it is "Knight" 19:39:50 What are you talking about? 19:39:55 fizzie: ^ 19:40:57 Europe2048: we're a little offtopic at the moment, talking about cards in card games that have the same name as other things 19:41:51 the reference to ais's version control software is obscure. it doesn't exist yet and it's called scapegoat. 19:42:20 ais523: OK! 19:42:59 planning software projects is so much easier than actually writing them 19:43:19 especially for me at the moment, I was trying to write more of a program earlier today and just couldn't do it 19:45:48 at present, it feels like I'm only able to program for about a week at a time, and then it takes a couple of weeks to recover from it 19:46:11 -!- tromp has joined. 19:49:02 "> tromp has joined" 19:49:19 This isn't the White House.l 19:49:39 (the l was typed accidentally) 19:50:02 turns out that sometimes, some surnames have several letters in common with other surnames 19:53:11 ais523: I spent the week writing a (not-quite-)Scheme to JavaScript compiler.  Which kind of works, but a lot of the library procedures aren't implemented. 19:53:37 It also interprets! And it's written in Lua. 19:53:50 It cheats very much by leaving out tail recursion. 19:54:23 The next step is to implement some esolangs in it. 19:54:33 oh right, being a compiler rather than an interpreter, it isn't trivial to implement tail recursion without support in the host language 19:54:50 Yah. 19:54:55 is JavaScript allowed to support tail-recursion? if so, I imagine most of the browser engines would implement it 19:55:13 some languages have semantics which make tail-recursion an invalid optimisation for one reason or another 19:56:01 out of interest, how good is Lua at writing compilers? I don't think I've ever tried that combination 19:56:36 each of "commit", "clone", "clean", "reset", "restore", "status", are both M:tG card names and git subcommands. They should print a "bisect" instant and add an "index" subcommand. 19:59:11 isn't "commit" half an aftermath card? which makes the pronounced card name "commit to memory" 19:59:28 but the names of the halves are treated separately by the game, so I expect it counts 20:00:47 I'm not sure but I think the aftermath cards just have the first name as their name unless they're on the stack cast with aftermath 20:02:26 cpressey: is this the scheme-like language that you were talking about a few days ago? 20:11:18 [[Arraything]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117883&oldid=117882 * PaxtonPenguin * (+43) 20:19:21 [[Udymts]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117884&oldid=92264 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-25) Link, categories 20:20:08 I think JavaScript is allowed to implement tail-recursion in some cases only, as far as I know 20:22:21 Planning software project easier than writing it might also depend what plans are being made, I think 20:23:59 One thing I wanted to design (and might be good with better discussion of it) is operating system design. 20:24:07 b_jonas: What is "bisect" instant going to mean? 20:25:00 presumably some sort of removal spell 20:25:21 although there is already Saw In Half (too new to be in the bot, I think), which changes one creature into two tokens with each have half the stats 20:25:27 I think, at least 20:26:01 not 100% sure, it's hard for me to remember all the details of a card that's never been particularly relevant to me 20:39:17 yeah, I'm thinking it's a creature removal spell 20:39:29 [[Fm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117885&oldid=69397 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) Category 20:41:32 or it could be a red removal spell that kills a creature or artifact 20:52:29 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Client closed). 20:52:43 -!- cpressey has joined. 20:53:55 Was torn away for a bit there.  ais523: I don't know if tail calls can be optimized in JS - I suspect they can't but only because I can't recall reading about it, and I know I've read about some optimizations JS compilers do.  This is the largest project I've done in Lua, and it's not much worse than using say Python, but it's a bit goofier / 20:53:55 less intuitive. 20:55:23 b_jonas: Yes, it's that one.  I don't know how similar to actual Scheme it will turn out to be, but it's, erm, "mutually intelligible". 21:02:13 According to some web searches, the ES6 spec permits implementations to do TCO, but as of 2023 the only engine that actually does it is Safari.  I wouldn't've guessed that. 21:02:51 cpressey: Firefox and Chromium both have very advanced debuggers, maybe they don't implement TCO because it would mess with the debugger 21:16:23 It is apparent that they Have Reasons Not To, whatever they exactly are.  Apparently Chromium tried, back in 2016, but then backed out.  Anyway, it's no matter.  The functions I'll be writing in this don't do much recursion at all, and it iteration is needed, it can be done in library functions.  And if I ever DO feel like writing a 21:16:23 trampolining compiler, I now have something I can extend in that direction instead of starting from scratch. 21:16:58 Actually, if there are recursion schemes, can't there also be iteration schemes?  Instead of fold(), you have iter() 21:17:41 there's also the compromise where you optimize some tail calls but don't guarantee optimizing all of them 21:17:53 real world compilers do that 21:28:37 -!- Europe2048 has quit (Quit: Client closed). 21:47:15 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Client closed). 23:59:22 -!- Penguin has joined. 23:59:31 -!- FortyTwoBB has joined. 23:59:32 -!- Penguin has quit (Client Quit).