←2023-10-16 2023-10-17 2023-10-18→ ↑2023 ↑all
00:04:43 <zzo38> Also, is there a name for a category of the walks of a undirected graph such that if you walk backward along the same path that you had just done then it cancels it out? (For example, if you have a graph which is a triangle with notes A B C then A-B-C-A-B-A has the final A-B and B-A canceling each other out being considered equal to A-B-C-A.)
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01:30:00 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117972&oldid=117612 * Dnm * (+472) /* Umka, now for Umka 1.2 */
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01:51:54 <esolangs> [[Counting]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117973&oldid=117585 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+0) Amended an instance of cacography.
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03:30:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117974&oldid=117175 * PixelatedStarfish * (+31) /* Logo suggestions */
03:32:59 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * PixelatedStarfish * uploaded "[[File:DeadFishPlusPlus.png]]": logo!
03:35:01 <esolangs> [[User talk:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117976&oldid=117974 * PixelatedStarfish * (+25) /* Logo suggestions */
03:35:26 <esolangs> [[User talk:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117977&oldid=117976 * PixelatedStarfish * (-56) /* Logo suggestions */
03:35:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:Deadfish++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117978&oldid=117260 * PixelatedStarfish * (+68)
03:36:26 <esolangs> [[Talk:Deadfish++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117979&oldid=117978 * PixelatedStarfish * (-68) /* Logo */
03:36:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:Europe2048]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117980&oldid=117933 * PixelatedStarfish * (+61)
03:58:22 <esolangs> [[?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117981&oldid=117962 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) Categories
03:59:29 <esolangs> [[?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117982&oldid=117981 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19) Category
04:59:05 <esolangs> [[Brainbits]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117983&oldid=117598 * Yb1 * (-15) thanks None1
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10:19:12 <esolangs> [[Talk:Snowflake]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117984&oldid=107486 * PkmnQ * (+405) /* Segmented transposition */ new section
10:42:28 <esolangs> [[Deadfish++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117985&oldid=117494 * None1 * (+41)
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11:46:41 <esolangs> [[Hsamsniarb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117986&oldid=116387 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+1) Rectified an orthographic mistake.
11:47:31 <esolangs> [[Hsamsniarb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117987&oldid=117986 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+1) Rectified an orthographic mistake.
11:48:54 <esolangs> [[Imput]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117988&oldid=115793 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+1) Rectified an orthographic mistake.
11:51:13 <esolangs> [[...]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117989&oldid=114873 * Kaveh Yousefi * (-3) Amended an erroneous statement in the Common Lisp implementation's documentation concerning the memory's componency.
11:55:13 <esolangs> [[Skim machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117990&oldid=105910 * Kaveh Yousefi * (-1) Rectified an orthographic mistake.
11:56:35 <esolangs> [[O o]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117991&oldid=106020 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+0) Rectified an orthographic mistake.
12:03:40 <esolangs> [[Brainbits]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117992&oldid=117983 * None1 * (+10) Fixed truth machine
12:06:42 <esolangs> [[Brainbits]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117993&oldid=117992 * None1 * (+137) /* Examples */
12:12:35 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117994&oldid=117927 * None1 * (+145) /* Related languages */
12:20:01 <esolangs> [[User:None1/InDev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117995&oldid=117956 * None1 * (+288) /* Commands */
12:20:52 <esolangs> [[User:None1/InDev]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117996&oldid=117995 * None1 * (+3) /* Errors */
12:21:07 <esolangs> [[User:None1/InDev]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117997&oldid=117996 * None1 * (+4) /* Example programs */
12:28:49 <esolangs> [[User:None1/InDev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117998&oldid=117997 * None1 * (+107)
12:30:23 <esolangs> [[Programming abillities of different esolangs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117999&oldid=117572 * None1 * (+304) /* B */
12:37:46 <Koen> !msg cpressey I've read the first half of the first half of "counterexamples in topology". it's fun. but "Don't worry if you don't know topology -- it's not the topology that makes this a worthwhile read" seriously? this can be read by someone who hasn't studied topology? there are so much formal symbols everywhere and so many abstract words describing different kinds of abstract topologies!!
12:38:17 <Koen> !send cpressey I've read the first half of the first half of "counterexamples in topology". it's fun. but "Don't worry if you don't know topology -- it's not the topology that makes this a worthwhile read" seriously? this can be read by someone who hasn't studied topology? there are so much formal symbols everywhere and so many abstract words describing different kinds of abstract topologies!!
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13:00:42 <esolangs> [[User:None1/InDev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118000&oldid=117998 * None1 * (+115)
13:01:10 <esolangs> [[User:None1/InDev]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118001&oldid=118000 * None1 * (+0) /* Reverse Cat program */
13:01:51 <esolangs> [[User:None1/InDev]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118002&oldid=118001 * None1 * (+13) /* Jump */
13:04:51 <esolangs> [[User:None1/InDev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118003&oldid=118002 * None1 * (+130) /* Example programs */
13:05:39 <esolangs> [[User:None1/InDev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118004&oldid=118003 * None1 * (-3478)
13:12:08 <esolangs> [[Stack-based]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118005 * None1 * (+3718) Created page with " Stack-based is a stack-based esolang invented by [[User:None1]]. ==Commands== They are case-insensitive. Legend: ''x'', ''y'' and ''z'' are variables, ''integer'' is an integer literal, ''string'' is a string literal without quotes. ===Declaration=== VAR ''x'' Decl
13:16:28 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118006&oldid=117965 * None1 * (+13) /* B */
13:17:56 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118007&oldid=118006 * None1 * (+18) /* S */
13:18:27 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118008&oldid=117942 * None1 * (+44) /* My Esolangs */
13:19:17 <esolangs> [[Stack-based]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118009&oldid=118005 * None1 * (+80) /* Errors */
13:20:14 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-Z)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118010&oldid=117773 * None1 * (+38) /* Spoon */
13:20:56 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118011&oldid=115845 * None1 * (+35) /* Setlang */
13:21:50 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118012&oldid=117599 * None1 * (+56) /* Squishy2K */
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13:22:49 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118013&oldid=117606 * None1 * (+74) /* Sokolang */
13:23:22 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118014&oldid=113543 * None1 * (+123) /* Examples */
13:23:47 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118015&oldid=118014 * None1 * (+2)
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13:24:03 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118016&oldid=118015 * None1 * (-1)
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13:25:41 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118017&oldid=118016 * None1 * (+1)
13:33:55 <river> "BB(745) requires proving the consistency of ZFC"
13:33:57 <river> I don't understand this
13:34:10 <river> can't you just calculate BB(n)?
13:34:36 <river> i guess not because some turing machines may not terminate, but it wont be obvious
13:34:42 <river> https://www.sligocki.com/2023/10/16/bb-3-3-is-hard.html
13:35:12 <river> so BB(n) isnt just something you can calculate, you actually have to prove termination for every turing machine of a certain length
13:46:29 <esolangs> [[Brainbits]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118018&oldid=117993 * None1 * (+1) /* Truth Machine */
13:46:48 <esolangs> [[Brainbits]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118019&oldid=118018 * None1 * (-1) /* Cat program */
13:55:32 <esolangs> [[Brainbits]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118020&oldid=118019 * None1 * (+615) /* Examples */
13:56:15 <esolangs> [[Brainbits]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118021&oldid=118020 * None1 * (+77) No longer unimplemented!
13:56:41 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118022&oldid=118008 * None1 * (+22) /* My Implementations */
13:57:55 <esolangs> [[Brainbits]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118023&oldid=118021 * None1 * (+4) /* Hello World! */
13:58:20 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118024&oldid=117823 * None1 * (+534) /* BoolX */
14:02:19 <esolangs> [[Brainbits]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118025&oldid=118023 * None1 * (-29) /* Interpreter */ It's not TC
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15:21:09 <wib_jonas> `dontaskdonttelllist
15:21:10 <HackEso> dontaskdonttelllist: q​u​i​n​t​o​p​i​a​ m​y​n​a​m​e​ i​n​t​-​e​
15:21:24 <wib_jonas> Koen: try @tell
15:21:38 <Koen> thanks
15:21:47 <Koen> @tell cpressey I've read the first half of the first half of "counterexamples in topology". it's fun. but "Don't worry if you don't know topology -- it's not the topology that makes this a worthwhile read" seriously? this can be read by someone who hasn't studied topology? there are so much formal symbols everywhere and so many abstract words describing different kinds of abstract topologies!!
15:21:47 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
15:21:47 <wib_jonas> river: proving termination is the easier hard part, the hard (or impossible for larger n) part is proving non-termination
15:22:11 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Codeguy9 * New user account
15:24:00 <wib_jonas> ok, so the C++ function std::regex_search and the python function re.search tries to find how a regex matches any infix of a string; the python function re.match tries to find how a regex matches any prefix of a string; the C++ function std::regex_match and the python function re.fullmatch tries to find how a regex matches a whole string. that's
15:24:00 <wib_jonas> another annoying naming conflict.
15:35:33 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118026&oldid=117790 * Codeguy9 * (+177) /* Introductions */
15:36:27 <esolangs> [[User:Codeguy9]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118027 * Codeguy9 * (+98) Created page with "I make programming languages for fun and then post them as open source projects on my Google Drive"
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15:47:54 <esolangs> [[User talk:Codeguy9]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118028 * Codeguy9 * (+12) Created page with ""
16:43:10 <esolangs> [[8-Bit]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118029 * Infinitehexagon * (+911) Created page with "'''8-Bit''' is an esolang created by [[User:Infinitehexagon]] in hopes of making his first Turing tarpit using Binary numbers, but it is unknown whether this is Turing-complete due to the fact that the cells are NOT unbounded and are limited to 8 cells. This langua
16:44:00 <esolangs> [[8-Bit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118030&oldid=118029 * Infinitehexagon * (+204)
16:44:21 <esolangs> [[8-Bit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118031&oldid=118030 * Infinitehexagon * (+1)
16:44:38 <esolangs> [[8-Bit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118032&oldid=118031 * Infinitehexagon * (+0) /* Hello World */
16:46:12 <esolangs> [[8-Bit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118033&oldid=118032 * Infinitehexagon * (+212)
16:47:05 <esolangs> [[8-Bit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118034&oldid=118033 * Infinitehexagon * (-12)
16:50:02 <esolangs> [[8-Bit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118035&oldid=118034 * Infinitehexagon * (+131)
16:52:32 <esolangs> [[8-Bit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118036&oldid=118035 * Infinitehexagon * (+53)
16:55:54 <esolangs> [[8-Bit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118037&oldid=118036 * Infinitehexagon * (+159)
16:57:30 <esolangs> [[8-Bit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118038&oldid=118037 * Infinitehexagon * (+46)
17:00:55 <esolangs> [[8-Bit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118039&oldid=118038 * Infinitehexagon * (+24)
17:01:28 <esolangs> [[User:Infinitehexagon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118040&oldid=117722 * Infinitehexagon * (+2) /* Things I might do */
17:02:07 <esolangs> [[User:Infinitehexagon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118041&oldid=118040 * Infinitehexagon * (+14) /* My Esolangs (chronological order) */
17:05:38 <esolangs> [[8-Bit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118042&oldid=118039 * Infinitehexagon * (+75)
17:06:01 <esolangs> [[8-Bit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118043&oldid=118042 * Infinitehexagon * (+6)
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19:09:59 <esolangs> [[Deadfish++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118044&oldid=117985 * Europe2048 * (+20) Changed syntax: /x\ mx
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20:44:53 <esolangs> [[Blackberry]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118045&oldid=46427 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+32) Stub, category
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21:09:22 <cpressey> <b_jonas> ah yes, that's a good way to get an esoteric language. plan a domain-specific language that you want to use for some particular purpose, then find that you don't want to use it after all, ends up unused and esoteric  <-- Yes, this is a good design metholodology for esolangs.
21:11:16 <cpressey> My compiler's not a write-off but was driven off the road by the fact that Scheme is a bad fit for what I need.  I'll probably change the source language someday, try to salvage something from it.
21:17:08 <cpressey> @tell Koen There are lots of nice pictures in it you can look at if you don't like puzzling over math symbols.
21:17:08 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
21:18:46 <zzo38> I have invented some domain-specific language and had some intention of others that I had not yet designed (I have a few ideas but not enough). I could also consider that too, though
21:26:32 <zzo38> (Specifically, I had made up one for puzzle games (like Sokoban, Hero Hearts, etc); and I thought to also make one for specifying rules of variants of mahjong.)
21:27:36 <zzo38> (And, PostScript is both general-purpose and domain-specific programming language, as well as both text and binary, and I seem to remember also reading somewhere that it is also both esoteric programming and not esoteric programming at the same time, too.)
21:33:28 <cpressey> I owned this book on PostScript, once, a long time ago: https://archive.org/details/postscriptlangua00adobrich
21:33:29 <cpressey> I don't think I would call PostScript truly esoteric, but it definitely has its moments.
21:35:20 <zzo38> I think you are probably correct
21:37:18 <zzo38> PostScript is one of the programming languages that I use, although I think some improvements could be made, such as adding a /Environment resource, non-buffered pipes, alpha transparency, setting the encoding separately from the font, auto-allocation for some operators, string concatenation, and some others
21:39:48 <b_jonas> cpressey, zzo38: re unused domain-specific language, https://esolangs.org/wiki/Legasm is the main example that I was thinking of
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22:06:26 <zzo38> My opinion is that, nevertheless, PostScript is much better designed than many newer programming languages. One advantage of PostScript is that it does not use Unicode strings.
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22:11:39 <zzo38> And, the PostScript binary object sequence format is good but is not very good if you want 64-bit values.
22:17:29 <zzo38> Other than that, it has the advantage of not needing parsing the entire structure to find one part
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22:24:21 <ais523> for the logs (for if FortyTwoBB reads them, or someone can otherwise link this portion of the logs if they show up):
22:24:39 <ais523> my Flooding Waterfall Model compile+simulation on the same program gives:
22:24:41 <ais523> Waterclock values: 11×260+36 11×260+36 11×260+37 11×260+36 11×260+36 11×260+36 11×260+35 11×260+36 1 1 1 19 27 3 1 0 1 1 0 19 27 3 260^318-11 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 260^318-13 0 0 0 0 0 260^318-13 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
22:26:26 <ais523> 260^318-11 is a 768-digit number starting with 9152182143
22:26:38 <ais523> so I suspect we have the same result and you just miscounted the digits
22:27:12 <ais523> also, I realised I was slightly wrong when saying a constant toughness boost wouldn't affect the Flooding Waterfall Model compiler output
22:27:31 <ais523> it actually does affect one part of it: the halt counter, which won't work correctly if you add a constant toughness boost and the program is otherwise unmodified
22:27:52 <ais523> this isn't a major issue, it is possible to change the baseline a little to compensate for the constant toughness boost
22:29:34 <ais523> also I get 3989 floods, just like you do
22:31:30 <ais523> as for the Massacre Girl construction, when using Bishop of Wings it can be halted very simply by using the Bishops (whose creature types are unique) as the halt counter (the halt counter is formed of the Bishops + lots of tokens), when the program halts all the Bishops die so there are no token-creation triggers left
22:32:14 <ais523> however, I prefer your approach, because it makes it possible to use Xathrid Necromancer instead, meaning that we don't have to give the opponent life (making it possible to have a lethal Grapeshot on the stack immediately below the damage source, also a Grapeshot, that starts off the combo)
22:33:10 <ais523> on another side note, Spiral Rise can interpret n-tag directly, you don't have to go via 2-tag
22:38:33 <ais523> (sorry for not being online yesterday – I am often busy on Mondays)
22:47:37 <esolangs> [[Talk:8-Bit]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118046 * None1 * (+144) Created page with "If the data in a language is bounded, then its definitely not TC. --~~~~"
22:50:54 <esolangs> [[Springboard]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118047&oldid=94912 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+74) Categories
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22:55:19 <FortyTwoBB> just read the logs Thanks @ais523
22:55:37 <FortyTwoBB> I did miscount, there was a comma and a space at the end i counted
22:57:00 <esolangs> [[Pity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118048&oldid=12157 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+84) Stub, WIP, categories
22:57:11 <esolangs> [[Brainbits]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118049&oldid=118025 * None1 * (+2) /* Interpreter */
22:58:17 <FortyTwoBB> the problem with using the bishops as the halt counter is that killing all of the halting type makes a ton of massacre girl triggers that will wipe out any output from the computation.
22:59:46 <FortyTwoBB> So you need to keep at least some token makers alive to absorb those triggers.
23:00:35 <FortyTwoBB> though if you don't care about output beyond "does it halt?" then your method is fine
23:04:38 <FortyTwoBB> I'm still a bit mystified by the FWC proof but can't deny that it works.
23:23:15 <ais523> if it was easier to understand, it probably wouldn't have taken three years to come up with it :-)
23:23:23 <ais523> (although I wasn't working on it continuously all that time, of course)
23:24:04 <ais523> Turing-completeness doesn't actually require output, although of course a Busy Beaver construction does, and having output is always nice
23:26:04 <ais523> I think there's some sort of intermediate language which compiles into FWM, which would make the proof easier to understand
23:26:21 <FortyTwoBB> that would be nice
23:27:14 <ais523> you have two basic operations on positions (= damage marked): "a = min(b, c, d, …) + constant", and "if e<b, then don't include b in any minimums this cycle"
23:28:27 <ais523> for the former, you get b's, c's, d's, … flood triggers to create some amount of a, the exact amount doesn't matter, and then use the baseline to get the constant and to get the values correct
23:28:47 <ais523> for the latter, you get e's flood trigger to boost b within the same cluster (rather than cross-cluster like things normally work)
23:29:37 <ais523> and the baseline is conceptually simple, just a bit fiddly because you have to work out all the non-baseline changes that are happening in the program and compensate for them
23:29:41 <FortyTwoBB> yeah you have a lot more control over the valuse than I had been able to get
23:29:59 <ais523> the trick is to never lose control over velocities / token counts ever
23:30:40 <FortyTwoBB> yeah, that was easier said than done
23:30:58 <ais523> but this is easier than it sounds, because if 1 X token creates a Y tokens, and 1 Y token creates b Z tokens, then one X token always creates ab Z tokens, the flood sequence doesn't matter at all
23:31:34 <ais523> (this is also the reason it's probably impossible to use the token quantities to do meaningful computation, and I had to use the damage marked instead)
23:32:22 <FortyTwoBB> but the damage marked will be the same as the quantity when it floods
23:32:39 <ais523> yes, but it controls the timing of the flood
23:33:20 <ais523> there is one counter, that I called "zero", which everything is measured relative to – data is stored in the timing of the floods of that relative to the floods of other things
23:33:44 <FortyTwoBB> yeah im wrapping my head around it, its a different way than I had been thinking of them
23:34:21 <ais523> I find that programming in this sort of language is all about finding the right way to think about the problem – what can we control, and is the language still TC if we control it
23:34:49 <ais523> Three Star Programmer was mystifying to me and everyone else when I created it, but if looked at from the right perspective it's almost trivially easy
23:34:59 <ais523> (https://esolangs.org/wiki/Three_Star_Programmer if you're interested)
23:36:12 <FortyTwoBB> yeah three star programmer is a cool 1-operation language
23:43:06 <esolangs> [[Three Star Programmer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118050&oldid=117917 * Ais523 * (+960) /* Computational class */ explain the right way to think about this language
23:44:57 <ais523> for what it's worth, my breakthrough in solving FWM Turing-completeness was to observe that the values are hard to control, then "so if we can't control the values we have to control the velocities", then "we can't control the velocity separately from the value if we're ensuring the counters are always nonzero, like in The Waterfall Model, so we have to leave them zero for a while – changing how long they're zero would change things in a possibly
23:44:59 <ais523> controllable way"
23:45:33 <ais523> and the simplest construction I could think of where things spend a lot of time at zero was to split into two groups and have each group be zero around half the time
23:45:57 <FortyTwoBB> Yeah I knew zero-ed counters were useful but I couldn't figure it out.
23:46:29 <ais523> you wrote in the original article that counters were permitted to remain at zero, rather than being undefined behaviour – that may well have been a useful clue
23:47:26 <FortyTwoBB> yeah I wanted to be clear how it worked in the MTG implementation so that it was transferrable
23:48:23 <ais523> I find it fascinating how even closely related languages can have different restrictions and permissions based on what "naturally works" for the language
23:48:50 <ais523> The Waterfall Model hates zeroed counters because they would be supposed to trigger continuously, but in Flooding Waterfall Model the trigger is multiplied by 0 so it's fine
23:49:38 <FortyTwoBB> yeah lol
23:50:32 <ais523> something similar happened with Spiral Rise, the "add the remainder to the modulus" thing helped solve two problems (TCness and implementation difficulty), and then later I implemented Spiral Rise in a tag system and that *also* wanted to naturally add the remainder to the modulus
23:51:04 <ais523> and I realised that this actually makes a lot of sense with how division works in the real world, divisions don't actually round down, if you have a remainder you have a remainder
23:51:09 <ais523> and when the remainders add up they carry
23:51:43 <FortyTwoBB> yeah TCness can come from unexpected places and its kind of serendipitous sometimes
23:52:16 <ais523> I was interested in this back when I was very young, before I realised that esolangs existed or what TCness was
23:52:35 <ais523> trying (and mostly failing) to implement algorithms in things not meant to be programmed
23:53:57 <FortyTwoBB> I've been more interested in the mathematics behind the structure
23:54:24 <ais523> I find that the underlying mathematics is often really neat, once you pare away enough unnecessary features
23:55:03 <ais523> back when Turing machines were first discovered, mathematicians were interested in what the very simplest universal machines would be, hoping it would teach them something interesting
23:55:16 <ais523> and then they changed their mind, deciding that it probably wouldn't reveal anything interesting after all
23:55:45 <ais523> but I think that, if you go far enough down that path, it does produce some pretty interesting mathematical constructs and some neat insights into the nature of computation
23:56:01 <FortyTwoBB> well the smallest is arguably wofram's (2,3)
23:56:19 <FortyTwoBB> though that is very weakly universal
23:56:20 <ais523> in case you didn't realise, I'm the person who proved that weakly TC
23:56:29 <FortyTwoBB> lol
23:57:18 <ais523> it lead to a lot of controversy because nobody was quite sure what the correct definition of TCness was, and I still am not sure
23:57:46 <FortyTwoBB> well congrats, I spent a week reading the FOM archives a few months ago.
23:58:16 <ais523> it's made me more interested in the strong TCness constructions (i.e. blank initial state and explicit halting) because a) at least those are usually uncontroversial and b) there's more room for optimisation
23:59:06 <ais523> I came up with a strongly universal (2,14) pretty recently: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/111278/turing-complete-language-interpreter/265539#265539
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