< 1697587230 574468 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah universaility is very odd and tricky to pin down < 1697587244 818988 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a good definition for without splitting into strong and weak < 1697587371 127861 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :interestingly, experiments with proving things Turing-complete have me convinced that the simplest models are all variants of either counter machines or queue automata, and neither of those allow infinite inputs in the first place < 1697587383 650052 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though it's probably not hard to add output to the M:tG Flooding Waterfall construction, something like you add two special counters and the output is the quotient of their value at termination < 1697587415 678216 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: the construction that FortyTwoBB et al are working on does require output, although they're doing busy beaver so they just need the output as large as possible < 1697587443 7052 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw the "natural" definition of output in Flooding seems to be "distance in time between two counters zeroing" < 1697587459 166450 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, though I was thinking yours, with the tournament viable deck, since in that case just rerunning the machine multiple times in parallel to get bits of the output isn't viable < 1697587470 28087 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah we just have a counter that tracks how many iterations its been < 1697587487 957946 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, that's the output then < 1697587510 676789 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :with FortyTwoBB's idea for halting the program via stopping the death triggers via stopping the deaths rather than stopping the sources of the triggered abilities < 1697587541 254846 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you could easily have multiple output states by varying which trigger is used to do the stopping, and thus what the creature type that floods the board at the end would be < 1697587568 412690 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we also want the output to be in a nice stairstep pattern so we can easily convert the output to input. < 1697587622 145729 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure what you mean by a stairstep pattern < 1697587629 601027 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :of the n creatures we have each of {1...n} remaining toughness < 1697587631 885848 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :large number as output is slightly weaker than arbitrary output from the program, so you probably use whatever large number is convenient for the M:tG construction, and don't care if you can make the program output a result of its calculation there < 1697587639 928197 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, I see < 1697587670 441614 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: right, one of the properties of busy beavers is that if you can produce a number X as output, there is no need to be able to produce any number < X < 1697587728 858194 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :then to make input of io necromancer < 1697587765 693041 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err O->I necromancer < 1697587842 920070 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is the current construction able to cast Artificial Evolution infinitely? or does it consume a limited resource? < 1697587854 300183 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it consumes a limited resource < 1697587868 121638 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we are unable to do anything infinitely < 1697587889 249729 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I kind-of assumed there would be some things that would be infinite, but not convertible into damage < 1697587910 816895 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there have been versions with infinite colorless mana and similar < 1697587965 183075 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but free AEs would give us infinite TYS storm which we can convert into say infinite lingering souls tokens < 1697587982 971992 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah right, you have something that cares about something storm-count-ish < 1697588054 590389 :JAA!~JAA@user/jaa PRIVMSG #esolangs :7105 < 1697588057 169605 :JAA!~JAA@user/jaa PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oops < 1697588060 705295 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so an AE costs a TYS copy from a TYS trigger from ... from a spellweaver volute trigger from casting lingering souls for 2 life. < 1697588078 856181 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :JAA: that's a surprisingly large number to typo into IRC < 1697588094 436693 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :normally when people do that it's something like a tab number, and is often in the hundreds, but I don't think I've seen thousands < 1697588102 151427 :JAA!~JAA@user/jaa PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: / = shift + 7 on my keyboard layout, 105 is the window number. < 1697588110 766914 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah right < 1697588133 759384 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess that people who have hundreds of tabs are more likely to typo tab numbers, because they switch more oftne < 1697588155 796343 :JAA!~JAA@user/jaa PRIVMSG #esolangs :It happens so regularly that I should look into writing a script that stops me from sending such messages... < 1697588159 715017 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so an AE costs a small sliver of a life < 1697588204 40031 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :bbiab driving < 1697588207 513563 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1697588321 969146 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :do you need to spend an Artificial Evolution cast on each copy of the Xantrid Necromancer, or do you clone the evolved version and spend a more abundant resource on cloning? < 1697588359 158448 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Xathrid Necromancer < 1697588537 384595 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it'd be nice to have a list of level/stage resources, in order, to make this sort of question easier to answer – I lost track of it ages ago < 1697590559 549808 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1697590605 508706 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1697590725 41089 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1697591251 613340 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] FortyTwoBB < 1697591429 273247 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :welcome back < 1697591615 680084 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :currently, roughly the resources are: colorless mana < creature tokens (can animate artifacts and enchantments) < resolute watchdog tokens < instants < computation happens here < life=black mana < red mana = sorceries < blue mana < green mana < white mana < card draw < poison counters < 1697591662 341198 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name Resolute Watchdog < 1697591664 382405 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :No output. < 1697591688 362538 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Defender \ {1}, Sacrifice Resolute Watchdog: Target creature you control gains indestructible until end of turn." < 1697591718 937822 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :its really any card that costs colorless to sacrifice itself and target a creature < 1697591744 761212 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name Martyr of Spores < 1697591746 199902 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Martyr of Spores \ G \ Creature -- Human Shaman \ 1/1 \ {1}, Reveal X green cards from your hand, Sacrifice Martyr of Spores: Target creature gets +X/+X until end of turn. \ CSP-C < 1697591757 706694 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :is the other good option for that slot < 1697591772 620740 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :presumably this is imprinted on Soul Foundry? < 1697591776 490998 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yup < 1697591827 781088 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :from hand we can either imprint it on soul foundry to get psychic battle ->cowardice triggers < 1697591845 672013 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :or cast and counter it to get bloodbond march triggers < 1697591875 462109 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :we need both types of triggers to get the dog back in hand < 1697591910 114851 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, I see, you counter it in response to the bloodbond march trigger < 1697591958 134576 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, thats what chancellor of the annex is for < 1697592003 466409 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the chancellor of the annex had me both flummoxed and amused < 1697592018 214591 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in competitive play, you play it in decks that go all-in turn 1 in order to increase the chance that your opponent can't stop you < 1697592031 639465 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is exactly what this deck would do, if you ever actually tried to win with it < 1697592046 601617 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :but we don't want it in our opening hand < 1697592058 290052 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :we just give it to our opponent < 1697592060 417884 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol < 1697592088 285745 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is actually quite amusing that the TCness construction gives basically everything to the opponent < 1697592124 648752 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in both your construction and mine, the only relevant thing we control during the whole TCness operation is one lingering effect from Arcbond or Massacre Girl < 1697592154 960404 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and in fact you are using Kaervek's Spite, so you control no permanents and have no cards in hand) < 1697592163 979487 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah we use APNAP to force the stack to stay the way we want < 1697592183 996924 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :same here < 1697592197 393432 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my first attempt to prove magic TC failed because i wasn't able to control the stack order precisely enough < 1697592203 278337 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I was very cognisant of that the second time around < 1697592218 585964 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :we actually can have some 2/2 zombies from ratadrabrick but none of the legends can affect the board anymore < 1697592278 825368 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've debated the infinite loop rules several times in this channel, to work out what happens rules-wise if you do end up creating a nonterminating program (intentionally or by mistake) < 1697592292 865917 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the obvious answer is "the game is a draw" but I don't think that's actually correct < 1697592301 930214 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :its a draw < 1697592308 662618 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :instead, I think someone gets a slow play penalty unless they concede, but I'm not sure whether it's you or your opponent < 1697592331 393881 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the Magic rules are unable to call the situation a loop unless it actually repeats in a predictable manner < 1697592402 28122 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if they *were* able, then Magic would probably be uncomputable rather than Turing-complete (but not with a Vintage-legal deck because it involves Shahrazad in order to be able to continue playing after a game is drawn) < 1697592438 749629 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :104.4b If a game that’s not using the limited range of influence option (including a two-player game) somehow enters a “loop” of mandatory actions, repeating a sequence of events with no way to stop, the game is a draw. Loops that contain an optional action don’t result in a draw < 1697592461 634966 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the controversial wording is "repeating a sequence of events" < 1697592474 256351 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because if it isn't a trivial loop, the sequence doesn't actually repeat < 1697592479 986641 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah < 1697592504 822662 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the judges I talked to persuaded me that non-repeating infinite sequences are played out rather than automatically causing a draw < 1697592539 222051 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(even though I originally thought it would be a draw) < 1697592594 132323 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I considered trying to make a Shahrazad-oracle but its difficult to actually make use of the output of which player(s) loses half their life < 1697592602 40374 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yu-Gi-Oh!'s infinite loop rules are way more fun in this respect, if an infinite loop is formed there, then the "card responsible" gets destroyed to stop the loop, and it often isn't 100% obvious which card that should be < 1697592619 84437 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol < 1697592698 893115 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the rule used to be that it was illegal to make a play that would form an infinite loop, but that got changed when someone created a deck which set up a gamestate in which the opponent doing anything at all would cause an infinite loop to start < 1697592720 331247 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :thats impressive < 1697592723 231078 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(which was mostly a griefing manouver because if you can set up a gamestate that complex, you might as well just win on the spot) < 1697592804 51391 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :still impressive < 1697592828 688436 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :though i don't know yugioh's card pool very well < 1697592851 535735 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nor do I – I've been trying to learn enough of it to determine whether yugioh is TC < 1697592865 575494 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I suspect it currently isn't, effects are almost always optional rather than mandatory in yugioh < 1697592889 901937 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :and isn't boardspace very limited? same problem as like hearthstone < 1697592911 145596 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, although counters and monster stats both exist as resources that could reasonably be manipulated < 1697592930 742513 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's still hard to do anything useful – there isn't a Wild Evocation equivalent, so almost every card is unusable < 1697592934 604828 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name Wild Evocation < 1697592935 574489 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wild Evocation \ 5R \ Enchantment \ At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player reveals a card at random from their hand. If it's a land card, the player puts it onto the battlefield. Otherwise, the player casts it without paying its mana cost if able. \ M11-R < 1697593002 36541 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and new infinite loops are only likely to be possible in the future if Konami makes a mistake, because the game is currently mostly balanced around being arbitrarily unable to win on turn 1 < 1697593041 434531 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :almost all top decks can storm off into a huge field from a random 5-card hand, so the game is balanced by the starting player being unable to actually win on that turn, so they have to set up a lot of disruption, and then the second player tries to win through the disruption and if they can't win that turn they usually lose < 1697593075 370659 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :crazy hoe powercrept that game got < 1697593092 192793 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :pretty much any loop with a useful output breaks that because it makes it possible to win on turn 1 and so the second player doesn't get a chance to break the board < 1697593098 582160 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, it is ridiculous < 1697593107 962258 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is some sort of beauty in it – I have been trying to learn < 1697593117 594971 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it fundamentally makes the game almost impossible to balance < 1697593163 838798 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in current decks, like half the deck has to be a 1-card combo that can set up a big board by itself starting from an empty field, so that you can try to play the first few and then win with the last when the first few get negated (= countered) < 1697593174 876288 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or it isn't competitively viable < 1697593188 176955 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at this rate, they will have to create a 0-card combo in order to keep the powercreep going well enough to sell sets < 1697593203 122336 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(which is actually possible in Yu-Gi-Oh! mechanics) < 1697593226 399537 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although they have been sensible enough not to enable any yet, it's mechanically possible but the card pool isn't there) < 1697593237 459068 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :companion/commander style effects? < 1697593247 929032 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yep, you get 15 of them < 1697593262 892864 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :that is too many < 1697593275 944182 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which are normally lower power than a typical M:tG commander would be, but well, they overbalance it with sheer quantity < 1697593419 885301 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :its also funny to compare the power of card draw in yugioh to the pokemon tcg < 1697593478 653183 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they are weirdly comparable – the difference is that in Yu-Gi-Oh! each card converts itself into 1 card + a little extra when it's played, whereas in Pokémon, 1 card converts itself into 7ish cards but you can only do it once per turn < 1697593498 554467 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :like draw 2 cards is busted broken in yugioh, and pokemon is like how about instead timetwister < 1697593503 613022 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so both games go through huge numbers of cards in a turn but for different reasons < 1697593516 479683 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a costless draw 2 would be broken in pretty much any TCG < 1697593549 346831 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but adding a cost can quickly plummet that value, depending on the game < 1697593591 52003 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in Netrunner, you get four "clicks" per turn and need to spend a click to do pretty much anything, but you can use otherwise unused clicks to gain credits (=mana) or to draw cards, so you can draw 4 cards in a turn as long as you don't do anything else < 1697593624 856054 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which makes it very hard to get entirely resource-screwed, you can still play if you draw no economy cards, it's just slower < 1697593634 735472 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, netrunner has a much better action economy < 1697593698 352930 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is interesting to compare a 1-resource game (cards in Yu-Gi-Oh!) to a 2-resource game (cards and mana in Magic) to a 3-resource game (cards and credits and clicks in Netrunner) < 1697593755 646654 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the fewer resources you have, the harder it is to stop broken infinite combos forming < 1697593769 488318 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(that said, even Netrunner has had a few infinite combos, but none that break the game) < 1697593799 971264 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, though mtg can subdivide mana into more types < 1697593823 4384 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :and uses life as a resource pretty heavily < 1697593830 454486 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have mixed feelings about that – color screw feels less fair than mana screw in a way < 1697593864 894979 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because it's basically a case of, you can choose how powerful your deck is by choosing how many colors you play, but the more colors you go for, the greater the chance of randomly bricking and having a non-game < 1697593905 339961 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in Legacy, for example, games where RW Initiative is playing are nearly always determined by how good the RW Initiative deck's starting hand and topdecks are < 1697593923 444890 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is very hard to beat unless it bricks, but it bricks quite frequently (usually either mana flood, mana screw or color screw) < 1697593943 688291 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah they have made better fixing lands, but its still a problem < 1697593963 727728 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :RW Initiative's primary problem is that it can't actually play good color fixing due to the nature of the deck < 1697593982 27432 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because it has, or at least wants, to make 4 mana on turn 1 in order to function < 1697593992 579702 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it's full of Ancient Tombs and Chrome Moxen and the like < 1697594002 136842 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :well that's pretty ambitious < 1697594027 814896 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes – it's a testament to Magic's card pool that it was even possible to get it semi-consistent < 1697594037 897572 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and if you do manage it you usually win < 1697594046 677961 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unless you have nothing good to cast with it < 1697594240 479352 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :like vintage oops! all spells decks that try to make 4 (or 7) mana to win with baullistrade spy (or goblin charbelcher) flipping over their deck with no lands. < 1697594260 514345 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that deck exists in Vintage, Legacy, Modern and Pauper nowadays < 1697594270 184430 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(admittedly the Pauper deck plays 59 spells rather than 60) < 1697594294 284181 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :is edge of autumn a common? < 1697594305 377485 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name edge of autumn < 1697594306 510701 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Edge of Autumn \ 1G \ Sorcery \ If you control four or fewer lands, search your library for a basic land card, put it onto the battlefield tapped, then shuffle your library. \ Cycling--Sacrifice a land. (Sacrifice a land, Discard this card: Draw a card.) \ FUT-C, DDG-C < 1697594308 915880 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes < 1697594336 336978 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I don't think it's played in One Land Spy < 1697594375 474590 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think of it as mostly a card for Doomsday < 1697594379 921306 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :and i think theres also a card that you can alt cast by revealing you have no lands in hand to search for a basic into your hand < 1697594390 652748 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name Land Grant < 1697594392 2871 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Land Grant \ 1G \ Sorcery \ If you have no land cards in hand, you may reveal your hand rather than pay this spell's mana cost. \ Search your library for a Forest card, reveal that card, and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library. \ MM-C < 1697594402 969326 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's the primary reason that One Land Spy plays its one land < 1697594426 841543 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah that one < 1697594555 955423 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's fun that these decks exist, but would be bad for the game if they were ever top-tier or even second-tier < 1697594574 446173 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, completely < 1697594592 702140 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :though doomsday is pretty scary in vintage < 1697594635 234686 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think Doomsday is good for the game – the Legacy version is great fun to watch if played by someone competent at the deck, and it's also great fun to watch someone competent play against it < 1697594649 876362 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it can play around pretty much everything, but ends up having to play into something else in the process < 1697594690 82726 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, i really like the skill of making the right pile and also playing against the optimal pile < 1697594702 843501 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least when its not just over immediately < 1697594734 105749 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and there are so many cards that beat it, often in bizarre and surprising ways, so trying to work out what to play around / what you might have that can beat what the opponent was playing around is so interesting < 1697594887 848665 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :dress down, ancestral recall targeting them, removal, flusterstorm, not to mention what's already on the board < 1697594991 784966 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even something like wasteland can do wonders if they weren't expecting it < 1697595058 704510 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, or surgical extraction on their doomsday to shuffle their pile < 1697595134 443103 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is fun to watch Doomsday pilots play around Endurance < 1697595153 166623 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is like the Surgical but more so, and because it can be pitch-cast, often comes alongside some other disruption < 1697595225 321522 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :or noxious revival < 1697595248 599410 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think I've seen that one used against Doomsday, that's hilarious < 1697595512 932943 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :sometimes its all a Bazaar of Baghdad player can do < 1697600866 191039 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed > 1697601178 57614 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainbits14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118051&oldid=118049 5* 03Yb1 5* (+345) 10thanks None1 & infobox & cleaning errors > 1697602020 802002 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Three Star Programmer14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118052&oldid=118050 5* 03Ais523 5* (+0) 10/* Variants */ typo fix > 1697603209 477627 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Alx 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:HolyPy.jpg10]]": HolyPy logo. > 1697604867 43333 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07It Is Not What It Is14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118054&oldid=117265 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+29) 10Categories < 1697605532 510135 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see that many explanations of category theory seem to use the category of sets as an example, although it seems to me more obvious how a category is like a monoid and that the category of matrices is a more obvious example. Why is that? > 1697605811 522606 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Muddle++14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118055&oldid=54819 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+57) 10Stub, categories < 1697607013 161779 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: ais523 > 1697610105 221623 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07HolyPy14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118056 5* 03Alx 5* (+11836) 10Created page with "= HolyPy = This page is written up on the HolyPy version: 
HolyPy Stable-Closed v3.8
. [[File: HolyPy.jpg]] {| class="wikitable" ! Associated file extensions || Descriptor |- | .hpy || The non-compiled extension type recognised by HolyPy. |- | > 1697610199 800512 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Alx14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118057&oldid=116643 5* 03Alx 5* (+24) 10 > 1697610242 761321 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Alx14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118058&oldid=118057 5* 03Alx 5* (-36) 10 < 1697612944 612393 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey < 1697613992 421954 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :An initial state, and a sequence of commands; each command transforms the state. < 1697614093 624843 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lots of programming languages are like this.  But also theorem provers; each command is a tactic, the state is the "proof obligations". < 1697614126 579652 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :The proofs in such systems look like magical incantations sometimes, but this is mainly because you only see the commands, you don't see the state. < 1697614238 608810 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Other proof styles put the emphasis on the other side: they list the states, the transformations used are parenthetical. < 1697614291 79565 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :As a programmer, it's much easier for me to "see" the unwritten state of a program, than to "see" the unwritten yet-to-be-discharged obligations of a proof. < 1697614516 672962 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :> the transformations used are parenthetical.  <-- You can go beyond "parenthetical" and leave out the commands completely; but then the proof system has to search for what command must have been meant.  In that direction lies automated proving. < 1697614517 969926 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : :1:46: error: parse error on input ‘<--’ < 1697614526 528362 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh sorry lambdabot, didn't see you there < 1697614610 270350 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Just writing about this because realizing my interest in theorem provers is largely an interest in the languages they use (rather than strictly what they can do for you) and why those languages look the way they do. < 1697615085 805638 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's not to say that theorem provers can't do some pretty valuable things for you, of course! < 1697615433 621707 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1697616851 388703 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow, that's an unexpectedly long chain between different colors of mana < 1697617296 561005 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ravnica has this story where Agrus Kos, a Boros elite soldier, after his death returns as an oathspirit bound to the Azorius. but it seems like the only card that kind of represents this is https://scryfall.com/card/j22/1/agrus-kos-eternal-soldier . wouldn't it be nice if one of the later Ravnica-themed sets added yet another Necromancer, this time an Azorius one, that triggers on any Soldier dying and < 1697617302 568515 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :creates a white Spirit token? < 1697617491 277393 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown < 1697618142 326186 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv < 1697618679 962192 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"which are normally lower power than a typical M:tG commander would be" => M:tG tried the more powerful free effects once, with companion, but it got so powerful that they had to change their rules to blatantly different than what the printed card says, which I think is an almost unprecedented for modern cards < 1697618694 293412 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :usually if they have broken cards they just ban or restrict them instead > 1697619014 553101 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SDOTOS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118059&oldid=117732 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+116) 10 > 1697619036 567963 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SDOTOS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118060&oldid=118059 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+0) 10/* parity */ > 1697619103 535192 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SDOTOS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118061&oldid=118060 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+3) 10/* Truth-machine */ < 1697619682 526995 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1697620315 612569 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey < 1697620419 754483 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs : The proofs in such systems look like magical incantations sometimes, but this is mainly because you only see the commands, you don't see the state.  <-- This is also why pointfree style is so opaque. If you add in some "let"s you at least give the intermediate states *names*, which can help in "seeing" them < 1697620559 86944 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: in that case it must follow that if you program prolog, where every intermediate result has a name, then your program will be even more readable < 1697620737 688790 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :that sort of thing is why I wrote "can help" instead of "helps" < 1697620784 698022 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't trust the compiler to do name mangling properly.  I mangle my *own* names at *design time* before I even *write* the code. < 1697621610 169524 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :MangledNameFactoryBean < 1697621643 930233 :Koen!~Koen@sp137-h01-176-145-72-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr JOIN #esolangs * :Koen < 1697622138 13239 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed > 1697624188 46160 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Deadfish++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118062&oldid=117979 5* 03Europe2048 5* (-1) 10 < 1697625714 612846 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey < 1697626886 212927 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :An alternative to "let" is to keep definitions small, and each definition has a name.  This works for concatenative programming, and also for proofs (this is what lemmas are). < 1697626886 707325 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :But often it's hard to find a good name because there's no intuition for the intermediate thing you're naming. < 1697626887 207798 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :If lemmas are useful enough to be reused, they get a name (like "pumping" or "Yoneda") but if they aren't they're just numbered, which hardly helps. < 1697627076 439174 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Gotta name all the passes in a micropass compiler, too. < 1697627145 9694 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or more to the point, you can leave them nameless at your peril < 1697627263 623831 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Coming up with a name is a way of saving future maintainers the effort of reverse-engineering the definition. > 1697627299 294616 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Capsule14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118063&oldid=117905 5* 03Leol22 5* (-64) 10 < 1697628398 259158 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :But thinking more about visualizing the intermediate state itself, in a stack-based language, you could have a "stack should look like this now" assertion which can be inserted at any point < 1697628421 596945 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which kind of relates to types. < 1697628428 168464 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds) < 1697628488 613998 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey < 1697628583 684572 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :> let 15 = 3 * 5 in 15 + 1 < 1697628585 622378 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : 16 < 1697628651 774213 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :> let 99 = 3 * 5 in 99 + 1 < 1697628653 198898 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : 100 < 1697628800 255733 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is it just me or is Haskell becoming an increasingly cavalier language these days? < 1697628909 976089 :Koen!~Koen@sp137-h01-176-145-72-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr PRIVMSG #esolangs :hard to say < 1697628927 229260 :Koen!~Koen@sp137-h01-176-145-72-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe there was a warning not reproduced by lambdabot < 1697629003 969715 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :> do 3 + 3 < 1697629005 482212 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : 6 < 1697629036 241116 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1697629060 612612 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey < 1697629094 261644 :Koen!~Koen@sp137-h01-176-145-72-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr PRIVMSG #esolangs :for a minute I thought you had ragequit because you didn't like that 3+3 was 6 < 1697629111 460816 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :No, I just have a lousy connection. < 1697629168 622696 :cpressey15!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey < 1697629358 613735 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1697629367 337287 :cpressey15!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway, no warnings from either of those if I try them locally in ghci 9.2.8 < 1697629376 173129 :cpressey15!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net NICK :cpressey < 1697629532 865079 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :It would be great if the increasingly flexible behaviour of `do` was due to it working on any instance of a typeclass called `Doable` but I'm pretty sure it's not < 1697629544 169017 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :(due you see what I did there) < 1697629801 807076 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds) < 1697630916 25148 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1697631442 154157 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas < 1697631470 806916 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've no idea what that let 99 = 3 * 5 in 99 + 1 thing is trying to do and why it's accepted silently > 1697633313 361995 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CQfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118064&oldid=117171 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+67) 10Introduced a truth-machine as a third example. > 1697633353 302015 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CQfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118065&oldid=118064 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+163) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the CQfuck programming language on GitHub. < 1697634241 613022 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey < 1697634507 369256 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: I've posed it to the #haskell channel < 1697635512 625353 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :tl;dr ghc doesn't issue warnings unless you tell it to < 1697636910 702334 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: right, that's the default for gcc or perl too (except maybe a very few warnings). for gcc I'm used to always using -Wall and then occasionally explicitly suppressing warnings. this works much better than with msvc, because gcc's -Wall option (which, despite its name, doesn't enable all warnings) has a set chosen pretty well < 1697636950 890745 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it's somewhat reasonable that the IRC bot suppresses warnings for conciseness of both input and output. geordi suppresses most warnings too for that reason. < 1697637078 520885 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's of course a little bit of a compatibility problem here, with long-lived projects, because sometimes users of libraries complain that the libraries give warnings in new compilers, since the new compiler added new warnings that are usually useful. the compilers/interpreters have to strike a balance between compatible old behavior and useful < 1697637079 19760 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :new behavior, as happens in lots of things other than warnings too. < 1697637281 399736 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah it all adds up; in some sense this is a bot usability issue; I understand why you don't want the channel to be spammed with warnings, but some way to indicate them would be nice.  Maybe privmsg?  Maybe not. > 1697637364 112137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Brainbits14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118066 5* 03None1 5* (+221) 10Created page with "Brainfuck is TC only if brackets (loops) can be nested at leastbtwo levels deep, this esolang does not allow this, so it is not TC (probably). --~~~~" > 1697637381 139008 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Brainbits14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118067&oldid=118066 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10 > 1697638370 261916 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainbits14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118068&oldid=118051 5* 03None1 5* (+5) 10/* Cat program */ < 1697638664 658434 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds) > 1697639169 830644 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118069&oldid=117867 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+774) 10/* Aleph 2= */ > 1697639222 209388 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118070&oldid=118069 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+2) 10/* a stronk infinity */ < 1697640020 988851 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed > 1697640859 157086 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Beatnik14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118071&oldid=90788 5* 03HaleyHalcyon 5* (+732) 10Mentioned lack of vocabulary restriction and example high-value words > 1697640884 473843 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Beatnik14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118072&oldid=118071 5* 03HaleyHalcyon 5* (+4) 10/* Commands */ < 1697642184 306465 :Koen!~Koen@sp137-h01-176-145-72-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1697642986 567117 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) > 1697643465 117121 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078-Bit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118073&oldid=118043 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+65) 10/* Implementation */ > 1697643494 50715 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078-Bit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118074&oldid=118073 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+2) 10/* Implementation */ > 1697643578 351978 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078-Bit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118075&oldid=118074 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+1) 10 > 1697644280 628300 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118076&oldid=118070 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+175) 10 < 1697646578 272988 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1697647335 392955 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown < 1697648310 627787 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey < 1697648609 585158 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Out of curiosity, what is it about existing parser generators, in your opinion, that makes them produce inefficient code? < 1697648788 905122 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I might be misremembering what you said.  You said that parser combinator libraries make it too easy to accidentally build a slow parser. < 1697648833 75727 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that's mainly due to accidentally allowing backtracking. < 1697648936 317350 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've never tried a PEG parser.  I don't find them very appealing.  Although I've definitely seen people who are definitely fans of them. < 1697649990 122332 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1697650446 393795 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey (for when you get back): existing parser generators are usually very branchy, so the processor can't predict well unless you're parsing something that follows a predictable pattern < 1697650460 119926 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but yes, main problem with combinators is accidental backtracking < 1697650511 518926 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm also not a huge fan of PEG parsers: a) despite being linear-time, the constant factors are bad; b) their alternation-like operator is unintuitive and can easily end up accidentally rejecting parses you want to accept < 1697650568 32603 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually PEG is a lot like combinators, in the sense that if you write a parser with a combinator library that would accidentally backtrack, the equivalent PEG grammar would accidentally reject some valid inputs < 1697650580 301571 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the latter behaviour is easier to discover in testing < 1697650757 697084 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :O, finally they are starting to implement "functionname( arguments ORDER BY sortlist )" in SQLite. < 1697650848 151352 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :does the sorting rearrange one argument relative to another, or does it reorder the elements of a single list-like argument? < 1697650885 914376 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the former behaviour only really makes sense with variadic functions < 1697650916 633743 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, it would be a fun way to do control flow in an esolang, especially if the function were overloaded and the arguments had different types < 1697651130 700343 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it means that the function must be a aggregate function. < 1697651549 358476 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: the new parser generator that you're considering to make, is that for work? < 1697651731 113157 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I don't have a job at the moment < 1697651750 325339 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been struggling to concentrate for a few years now, possibly long Covid < 1697651767 482219 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I spend so much time unable to do anything < 1697651791 553800 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I'm concerned about getting a job in case I just turn up, fail to do anything and get fired < 1697651828 492294 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that sucks < 1697651841 578076 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :good luck with job hunting then < 1697651862 183197 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been kind-of wondering if I should make something on my own that I can sell < 1697651866 92003 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but even that is going very slowly < 1697652080 619783 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the new parser generator is something that I've been planning for over 3 years now but keep getting things wrong or being too tired to work on it < 1697652550 256274 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Quit: gone too far < 1697652993 418425 :__monty_1!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown < 1697653009 957087 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :*.net *.split < 1697653093 394597 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1697656555 833323 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048 < 1697657160 592287 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1697657523 861169 :vyv!~vyv@bras-vprn-nrbaon0452w-lp130-16-76-68-64-196.dsl.bell.ca JOIN #esolangs vyv :vyv verver < 1697657725 833482 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048 < 1697657731 707393 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi! < 1697659096 577552 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1697661316 959575 :vyv!~vyv@bras-vprn-nrbaon0452w-lp130-16-76-68-64-196.dsl.bell.ca QUIT :Quit: Konversation terminated! < 1697661553 937313 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1697662029 566568 :__monty_1!~toonn@user/toonn NICK :__monty__ < 1697662045 205213 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1697663427 760293 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer > 1697663959 362718 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Ice Bird 5* 10New user account > 1697664163 849359 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118077&oldid=118026 5* 03Ice Bird 5* (+139) 10 > 1697664259 44682 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118078&oldid=118077 5* 03Ice Bird 5* (+86) 10 > 1697665766 642277 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ForgottenV14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118079&oldid=82526 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+39) 10Stub, category < 1697667239 106571 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname > 1697673561 782470 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[072 Bits, 1 Byte14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118080&oldid=100411 5* 03TheBigH 5* (+108) 10