< 1698282151 848795 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1698282157 38332 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1698282238 128804 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1698283835 474722 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in < 1698283859 351835 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron < 1698285211 911324 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname < 1698287323 363820 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1698287353 322021 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : and is TC always a desirable quality? ← the most interesting esolangs are normally those for which either a) it isn't obvious whether they're TC or not, or b) they fail to be TC in an interesting or unusual way < 1698287372 301523 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, that are TC despite being extremely simple < 1698287418 686848 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : We all know that in practice we'll often run out of memory or time before a computation ever finishes. ← although in practice it is often possible to write an optimising interpreter that can implement the very slow programs in reasonable time < 1698287509 640200 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : After much headache, I think I understand the FWC TC-ness. I still feel a real dissonance with my intuition, but I've dealt with that before. Really, thank you for the work ais523. I've started again on the writeup and will post it in here when its done. ← I'm looking forward to it; I've been looking at the M:tG BB construction myself and have been making progress on understanding it, although I still don't have a a grasp of how the whole < 1698287511 173931 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thing hangs together < 1698287572 861465 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : must esolang always execute something? can esolang simply be a markup language? ← esoteric non-programming languages are less popular than esoteric programming languages, but do get discussed on IRC sometimes – I'm not sure if people put them on the wiki < 1698288173 288504 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1698288246 107802 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1698290365 95472 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I really had problems in mind that exceed our computing facilities... solving chess would be a very likely example. < 1698291293 722799 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: ah right, but that sort of computation isn't any better in practical languages than in esolangs < 1698291321 140445 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes. It wasn't about esolangs at all. < 1698291434 743448 :wpa!uid568065@id-568065.helmsley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs WeepingAngel :wpa < 1698294555 584349 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1698294604 913040 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1698294631 45391 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1698295123 178167 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname < 1698297447 114420 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1698297612 276590 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname < 1698302681 865274 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1698303596 271701 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1698305444 414063 :razetime!~razetime@v385-gateway.cs.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname < 1698307065 266470 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1698307475 886883 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User > 1698308849 370544 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Kant2002 5* 10New user account < 1698309084 393680 :razetime!~razetime@v385-gateway.cs.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds > 1698309138 27192 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118410&oldid=118372 5* 03Kant2002 5* (+128) 10 > 1698309678 238694 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GAXT14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118411&oldid=106770 5* 03Kant2002 5* (+0) 10 < 1698310594 480350 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1698310948 284749 :razetime!~razetime@wlib-b-085.lib.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname < 1698312836 792072 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie > 1698314317 738326 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Idea14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118412&oldid=102917 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (-4) 10a is just a literal, I think? < 1698316301 444017 :razetime!~razetime@wlib-b-085.lib.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1698316370 430429 :razetime!~razetime@wlib-b-085.lib.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname < 1698316678 365501 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv < 1698317079 366283 :razetime!~razetime@wlib-b-085.lib.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Quit: Go back to your cringe 9 to 5. I'll be gaming. < 1698318320 879847 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown > 1698322935 826546 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GAXT14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118413&oldid=118411 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+63) 10/* Grammar */ Categories > 1698323006 152062 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Homespring14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118414&oldid=55494 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+9) 10Stub < 1698324823 296385 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1698325087 235494 :Everything!~Everythin@static.208.206.21.65.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1698325719 334811 :Everything!~Everythin@static.208.206.21.65.clients.your-server.de JOIN #esolangs * :Everything < 1698327651 919585 :Thelie!~Thelie@185.66.193.31 JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie < 1698329511 323147 :Thelie1!~Thelie@185.66.193.31 JOIN #esolangs * :Thelie < 1698329518 331933 :Thelie!~Thelie@185.66.193.31 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1698329586 165774 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1698329796 726684 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1698331104 814906 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname < 1698331839 685354 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… > 1698332699 53453 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Vertica Smile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118415&oldid=25366 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+24) 10Category < 1698333256 947030 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User > 1698339490 378114 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PaxtonPenguin/Sandbox14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118416 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+102) 10Created page with "Welcome to Hell This is where i put my stupid ideas Enjoy. ;) =1= ==2== ===3=== ====4==== =====5=====" > 1698339686 933210 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PaxtonPenguin/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118417&oldid=118416 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+59) 10 > 1698339783 783798 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PaxtonPenguin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118418&oldid=118388 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+44) 10 < 1698340850 647370 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1698341668 192202 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1698341978 659122 :sprout_!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-a140-dd2-1bda-8a59.fixed6.kpn.net JOIN #esolangs * :sprout < 1698342156 920889 :sprout!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-7c82-aea-f2ae-942.fixed6.kpn.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1698342498 422037 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1698342658 166423 :sprout_!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-a140-dd2-1bda-8a59.fixed6.kpn.net NICK :sprout > 1698342862 717371 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snek14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118419&oldid=108910 5* 03KingJellyfish 5* (+11) 10 < 1698343319 532920 :Cale!~cale@cpe80d04ade0a03-cm80d04ade0a01.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1698344296 594222 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca JOIN #esolangs zzo38 :zzo38 < 1698345468 13100 :kwii!~kwii@193.19.203.71 JOIN #esolangs kwii :kwii < 1698345935 834381 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] FortyTwoBB < 1698346037 302890 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.213.213.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull < 1698346299 431539 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523 yeah I understand being confused by the rest of the structure. Probably the most mechanically difficult bits are the transitions before/after worldfire and spite. I'm trying to be overly detailed with those explanations to make sure it all works. Conceptually hardest is definitely understanding how higher tier stages even work (well that and < 1698346299 931230 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :FWC TC, but you obviously know that already lol) < 1698346496 910222 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, our particular construction has computation in an awkward spot that makes the structure even more confusing when you consider where we actually benefit from the output. < 1698346618 791319 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :output=BB zombies -> starlight life -> lingering souls casts -> TYS storm count is finally something preserved through worldfires. < 1698346959 228782 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1698346989 211325 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but if you have specific questions I'm happy to provide whatever answers I can < 1698347014 710796 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron < 1698347085 69394 :kwii!~kwii@193.19.203.71 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what's the context of this topic/what is this esolang? < 1698347172 384844 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is the most damage without going infinite in magic the gathering. the strategy involves implementing https://esolangs.org/wiki/Flooding_Waterfall_Model which was recently proven to be TC < 1698347232 821546 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thus the computation produces busy beaver numbers as output < 1698347288 271422 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The rest of the deck focuses on iterating the computation as many times as possible to get 'higher order' busy beaver numbers < 1698347357 743685 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :FortyTwoBB: it took me a while to work out what the lowest-level output was that's the multiplier for the highest stages < 1698347369 884653 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I realised it had to be storm, because it's a resource that can't be spent, only used < 1698347378 618337 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :BB_0(X)=BB(X) BB_n+1(X)=BB^N(X) < 1698347398 838417 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err no < 1698347440 672325 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :BB_n+1(X)=BB_N^(BB_N(X))(X) < 1698347514 910445 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :does this mean that you don't have busy beaver factors in the lowest stages? < 1698347578 453284 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well storm turns into everything else via fated infatuation < 1698347603 574351 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one thing I realised is that if you're using an iterated busy beaver function, the first few iterations don't need to be large enough to be TC, just to create a number larger than themselves < 1698347635 452399 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then the TCness can start showing up after a few iterations < 1698347655 846512 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, numbers being too small for the first computation is not really an issue anymore < 1698347713 362841 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.149.238.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv < 1698347747 920800 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what resource is spent to cast Fated Infatuation? < 1698347748 984285 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Older versions had to prove they could break out with like 70 permanents, this version will have more like 70^^^70 permanents at least < 1698347766 376711 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :life to pay lingering souls flashback < 1698347777 447912 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :triggers spellweaver volute < 1698347790 159893 :kwii!~kwii@193.19.203.71 QUIT :Quit: Quit < 1698347795 28622 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh right, there was some discussion in-thread about rulings on Spellweaver Helix < 1698347815 721856 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you have a choice about whether or not to copy the spell, and if you do, you have a choice about whether or not to cast the copy (you can just let the copy fizzle without casting it) < 1698347833 342812 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so if the Spellweaver Helix trigger gets copied, you can cast the spell from some copies and not others < 1698347842 936048 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah apparently even if the copy is not something that can normally fizzle like worldfire < 1698347868 15418 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, even if you can't fizzle due to lack of targets you can just not put it on the stack in the first place < 1698347882 621912 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is not how I expected the card to work, but its certainly convenient < 1698347886 19164 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's weird for the card to give you two choices < 1698347903 850262 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name Spellweaver Helix < 1698347905 989446 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Spellweaver Helix \ 3 \ Artifact \ Imprint -- When Spellweaver Helix enters the battlefield, you may exile two target sorcery cards from a single graveyard. \ Whenever a player casts a card, if it has the same name as one of the cards exiled with Spellweaver Helix, you may copy the other. If you do, you may cast the copy without paying its mana cost. \ MRD-R < 1698347909 398824 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1698347911 209101 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :3/1/2005 The creation of the copy and then the casting of the copy are both optional. < 1698347986 163244 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wording weird enough that they had to write a ruling to say that the card actually does what it says it does < 1698348052 607414 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also if it has 3 or more cards imprinted on it you cast them from the same trigger. < 1698348096 432075 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so we imprint worldfire, starlight, and the only sorcery we have two copies of < 1698348100 709427 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am a little more concerned about that one because IIRC the rules for copying imprint triggers changed recently-ish, so there are some formerly correct rulings floating around online that are no longer correct < 1698348109 935054 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but maybe I'm thinking about something else < 1698348127 97299 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we double checked that when it changed < 1698348185 985235 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the main difference was with split/double faced cards but it doesn't effect us < 1698348210 937232 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd expect it to work because imprint doesn't have rules text any more, so it doesn't notionally function any differently from, say, Dauthi Voidwalker < 1698348308 334265 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :607.3. If, within a pair of linked abilities, one ability refers to a single object as “the exiled card,” “a card exiled with [this card],” or a similar phrase, and the other ability has exiled multiple cards (usually because it was copied), the ability refers to each of the exiled cards. If that ability asks for any information about the exiled card, such as a characteristic or mana value, it gets multiple answers. If these answers are used to < 1698348308 594706 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah its just cards linked to an ability, there are a few odd corner cases where you can get multiple different linked abilities that don't interact < 1698348309 921544 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :determine the value of a variable, the sum of the answers is used. If that ability performs any actions on “the” card, it performs that action on each exiled card. If that ability creates a token that is a copy of “the” card, then for each exiled card, it creates a token that is a copy of that card. If that ability performs any actions on “a” card, the controller of the ability chooses which card is affected. < 1698348316 225281 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(from the rules dated October 13 2013) < 1698348322 423178 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a very clear answer < 1698348366 682165 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…although I'd hate having to rule that in languages other than English, which don't make a distinction between "a" and "the" < 1698348378 546511 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the official ruling is presumably "look at the English card text") < 1698348546 460017 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Constricting sliver can be artificial evolution-d to grant another linked exile ability to say dauthi voidwalker. you can't use the voidwalker's natural ability to cast the card it exiled due to the sliver's ability < 1698348564 812774 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name Constricting sliver < 1698348565 896862 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Constricting Sliver \ 5W \ Creature -- Sliver \ 3/3 \ Sliver creatures you control have "When this creature enters the battlefield, you may exile target creature an opponent controls until this creature leaves the battlefield." \ M15-U < 1698348610 617714 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :dauthi voidwalker is a bad example, it uses counters to know which cards it can cast < 1698348652 462647 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, right < 1698348660 714152 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but even if it didnt < 1698348813 892103 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :intellect devourer then < 1698348823 639119 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.149.238.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Quit: gone too far < 1698348945 947257 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Jacob Hauken, inspector even has two ways for it to exile cards for it to cast, but couldnt cast something it exiled thanks to the sliver < 1698349025 877688 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess my key question at the moment is: say the volute hyperstage is locked (it has created a whole load of martyr triggers that are currently in use, and can't be reused without destroying them) < 1698349036 382785 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* martyr tokens < 1698349049 116095 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is it possible to run a computation for each martyr token? or do we have to unlock the volute first? < 1698349416 783764 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :have to unlock < 1698349446 645843 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this makes me wonder if the foundry stage is worth it at all, then < 1698349470 34356 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because it's basically increasing things by an Ackermann function factor, but the busy beaver function grows so fast as to make that factor irrelevant < 1698349502 737729 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, but thats only the 'topmost' foundry stage < 1698349527 804908 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lower foundry stages power the transitions for more computations < 1698349559 588285 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :couldn't you do that with a layer instead, and save a lot of card slots? < 1698349613 296891 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :No, a stage powers many more transitions than a layer would < 1698349648 606949 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the number of transitions you get is already a busy beaver number < 1698349663 556776 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :applying any computable function to that doesn't significantly change its size < 1698349688 319381 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because you could just implement the same computable function inside the Flooding Waterfall Model program instead, using a very slightly larger starting state < 1698349902 827679 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :basically because the higher order stage structure is recursive, we can lose some efficiency at the top for more efficiency on the overall structure < 1698350030 208901 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can think of the martyr/soul foundry stage just below the topmost volute stage as powering a computation per martyr < 1698350069 84256 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that, if you replaced the foundry stage with a layer, and used the card slots saved by that to give you even one more starting token for the first computation, it would produce a larger output – but I don't fully understand the construction so may well be wrong < 1698350146 761519 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because while the volute stage is locked, you don't run computations, so you're creating some function of the amount of life you have – this is a fast-growing function but it's still computable, and thus an irrelevant part of the overall construction < 1698350175 282800 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and what's actually needed is to save as many card slots as possible for it, rather than making it grow as fast as possible < 1698350201 486056 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, not of the amount of life, of the amount of martyr tokens < 1698350252 22817 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because you could just get the Flooding Waterfall Model program to compute the same function before outputting, with a constant-sized amount of overhead < 1698350482 676669 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but a layer at the top of a stage doesn't do anything. just go into the stage with 2 more life or one more < 1698350483 884361 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :R < 1698350541 634285 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :exactly – my point is that even that does more than putting a stage below the computation < 1698350612 164335 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but its also still a stage for rebuilding the rest of the stack, the real work it does is in providing transitions < 1698350716 281453 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel like a stage is necessarily either too large or not large enough for that < 1698350733 224818 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it isn't large enough to handle BB levels of output, but a layer would be large enough to handle anything smaller < 1698350763 307309 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :consider after we have run out of life for computations above the first worldfire, we run through the awaiting transition triggers to get back into a state to cast worldfire again < 1698350823 384350 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :when we cast worldfire, the stack is the same as it was but we are down some fraction of the martyr stage below those transitions < 1698351042 39988 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, so you're casting worldfire at instant speed with a whole load of martyr triggers on the stack below it, and the number of martyr triggers determines how many times you can cast worldfire at that particular stack state < 1698351052 575747 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes < 1698351084 179501 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the topmost martyr stages are worthless yes < 1698351101 561101 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but in the middle of the stack they get rebuild with updated BB heights < 1698351107 810147 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which a layer could not no < 1698351115 910022 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :not do < 1698351175 879969 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :most of the time we will be at the top of the stack and BB computations dominate. < 1698351194 836216 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we want to iterate those as much as possible < 1698351206 848888 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but in any given batch of consecutive martyr triggers, there's no way to increase the size of the batch based on a computation once the batch has already been created < 1698351220 268111 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the initial size of the batch is based on a BB output < 1698351271 73862 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, hmm, maybe not? this is really confusing < 1698351289 172714 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the number of BB iterations we get is the important thing < 1698351343 102629 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what I am wondering about is whether we can just make the batches of triggers larger, rather than using them more efficiently < 1698351380 730512 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they get larger as the combo goes < 1698351391 581056 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, of course < 1698351450 622849 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so when we reach the bottom of the stack, we remake the stack with more layers and stages < 1698351521 389344 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because BB_N(X+1) 1698352978 816869 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cyclic Amplification System14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118420&oldid=68232 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+17) 10/* Another example for a computation that does many executions finitely */ Rectwrap < 1698353238 949434 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :“ (the official ruling is presumably ‘look at the English card text’)” => it always is, because the other language texts are not generally updated when the oracle text is changed, unless the card is reprinted. also because the comp. rules doesn't have translations, and I don't think there's even an easy way to find the english word from a magic-specific word (eg. keyword or type or < 1698353244 959042 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :subtype) in a foreign language, there are no translation tables published. as far as the rules go, nothing but the current oracle text matters, and that exists only in English. < 1698353270 164543 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also the translations often have major errors in < 1698353290 737270 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think as recently as this year, there was a translated card printed with the wrong mana cost for an ability < 1698353294 348165 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron < 1698353368 839635 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah they have gotten better, but mistackes still happen < 1698353404 723537 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hasnt been another 'card-by-name walking atlas in english for a while < 1698353419 528442 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :'card-by-name walking atlas < 1698353440 384662 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name walking atlas < 1698353441 755586 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Walking Atlas \ 2 \ Artifact Creature -- Construct \ 1/1 \ {T}: You may put a land card from your hand onto the battlefield. \ WWK-C < 1698353457 448421 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(backtick, not quote) < 1698353493 386902 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah thats the oracle text, the printed card is not an artifact < 1698353516 815268 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they just left that word off < 1698353649 549976 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :“ … in languages other than English, which don't make a distinction between ‘a’ and ‘the’” => since last year they stopped printing new sets in korean, russian, and chinese traditional, so there's at most two of those standing, but there are of course lots of other reasons why it can be hard to figure out the rules from the translated text < 1698353697 710923 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But oracle text is almost always good enough to define how the card works within the rules < 1698353702 489267 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I expect "an exiled card" would be used only on cards that normally exile multiple, and on those the translated text is likely clear that the second ability affects only one of them < 1698353811 985150 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name dominating licid < 1698353813 15724 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Dominating Licid \ 1UU \ Creature -- Licid \ 1/1 \ {1}{U}{U}, {T}: Dominating Licid loses this ability and becomes an Aura enchantment with enchant creature. Attach it to target creature. You may pay {U} to end this effect. \ You control enchanted creature. \ EX-R < 1698353828 55591 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :does not work because of layers < 1698353842 649716 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :does nowadays, they finally errata'd it and/or changed the rules so that it would work < 1698353851 832169 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :after a small but vocal minority complained for years < 1698353861 483062 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :♥ < 1698353862 546182 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh? what changed? < 1698353883 591503 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can't remember < 1698353939 355829 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, I think the bot may have brought up the post-errata version < 1698353961 644675 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"You control enchanted creature" is now part of its text even as a creature, so there isn't a layers issue with whether that ability exists or not < 1698353994 844319 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah thats a clever change > 1698354172 608860 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Trigational Pseudoomninumitype14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118421&oldid=108921 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+24) 10Category < 1698354172 882038 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, it's mostly just the oracle text that matters, except (1) you have to find the version of the oracle text as it was at the start of a tournament if it's been updated during the tournament, and (2) between a set releases and the comp. rules is updated you have to use the set FAQ / release notes to determine how any new functionality like new keywords work. < 1698354173 384297 :Thelie1!~Thelie@185.66.193.31 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds > 1698354183 813724 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Trigational Pseudoomninumitype14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118422&oldid=118421 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+0) 10/* Examples */ < 1698354321 448490 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the numbers go higher than I can imagine then, if your construction really works < 1698354358 197572 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even one iteration of the busy beaver function goes higher than anyone can imagine, if it's starting from a sufficiently large number (which could be quite small) < 1698354368 962276 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1698354447 842395 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so roughly the stack structure is some layers at the bottom, then three stages, then worldfire transitions for each red, each worldfire has a spite transition for each 2 life, then each of those has a martyr stage in between. < 1698354455 50847 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, because the BB of a sufficiently large number will very likely be not determined by ZFC, and even in an esoteric model like this, a few exponentials of code size should be more than enough to reach that stage < 1698354460 117544 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and at the top of the stack is computation < 1698354521 570153 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unless I made a mistake calculating the complexity class, we're definitely within three exponentials of a Turing machine and probably within two < 1698354522 386016 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :isn't the bound down to like bb(700) to break out of ZFC? < 1698354540 989349 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :last time I looked it was a four-digit number, but I haven't been paying that much attention < 1698354591 335579 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :FortyTwo: not here, because we're using flooding waterfall, and with the matrix entries encoded in unary (eg. you need as many token copies as the sum of matrix entries), that's much less efficient than turing machines or anything like that < 1698354623 172788 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah so we need like BB(700^^^700) < 1698354651 799212 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I'm hoping that you can generate a large enough number with the parts of the deck outside of the waterfall thing to take off, and that there are enough creature types available < 1698354666 255487 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: fwiw it wouldn't surprise me if one exponential were possible, via using a fixed-size interpreter that decodes the program to interpret from a constant > 1698354700 68209 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Yoob14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118423&oldid=42296 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-6) 10/* External resources */ Update link < 1698354701 636246 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are definitely enough creature types available, the original waterfall model can be done in 7 counters, flooding waterfall model can be done in less than 100 < 1698354725 394961 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the waterfall thing can take off with hardly any tokens because you don't need to be TC on the first iteration, just generate an output larger than the input < 1698354765 152979 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and flooding waterfall model can do an exponentiation on incredibly limited resources, as long as you want to output the result rather than doing further computations with it < 1698354857 360514 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you need just one creature type per clock, plus a constant overhead, right? < 1698354884 5873 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for flooding waterfall model, it's one creature type per flooding waterclock < 1698354895 855912 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :good < 1698354899 716428 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, so we can have 250+ clocks < 1698354919 523764 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are about 280 creature types in Magic these days < 1698354946 778677 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(of course the reality is probably even bigger than what we can prove) < 1698354983 147935 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Its still on the order of BB(X) < 1698355030 922870 :fellow!~fellow@user/fellow PRIVMSG #esolangs :what is the best way to prove that a language is Turing Complete? < 1698355035 687708 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.213.213.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl QUIT : < 1698355041 940971 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry, I mean the reality for how small code size you need to start to take off is likely lower than what we can prove is enough < 1698355081 389282 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fellow: there's a range of languages designed for proving things TC; you have to either write a compiler from one of those into your language, or to write an interpreter for one of those in your language < 1698355087 679181 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fellow: compile an existing simple computational model to it, such as two-stack machines, two-counter Minsky machines < 1698355103 250108 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one of my big esolang projects has been trying to work out the best languages to use as the source < 1698355109 744453 :fellow!~fellow@user/fellow PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: but then how are those languages proven to be Turing Complete? < 1698355128 204285 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fellow: normally with a chain of progressively simpler languages implementing each other < 1698355129 904526 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :When You really want to prove something, You will find Ways. < 1698355142 405653 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fellow: the same way, just with a few simulation layers until you get to whatever language you take as the definition of Turing-complete < 1698355154 80606 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, most of the chain has been proven already, so you only need to do the bit at the end of the chain < 1698355190 765552 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what is relevant here in Minsky machines, which you prove Turing-complete by simulating a finite control multi-stack machine on one < 1698355194 117033 :fellow!~fellow@user/fellow PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: sounds circular to me. if Turing completeness is always defined in terms of another language, how can we ever be sure which language is turing complete. somewhere we need to break the cycle, no? < 1698355205 133258 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for what it's worth, I currently believe that the easiest languages to compile from are either simple queue-based tarpits or simple counter-based tarpits, and which is simpler depends on the nature of data storage in your target language < 1698355212 51858 :fellow!~fellow@user/fellow PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks. minsky machine. need to learn about it. < 1698355218 272181 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fellow: it's rooted at Turing machines, which are Turing-complete by definition < 1698355222 143533 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it eventually comes back down to a turing maching < 1698355233 383909 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fellow: no, you define Turing-completeness in terms of one specific language, and then you take a chain of simulations to that one language < 1698355260 344686 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you could pick any other TC language as the example that defines the whole set, but Turing machines were picked early and the choice stuck (I guess it doesn't really matter) < 1698355315 803695 :fellow!~fellow@user/fellow PRIVMSG #esolangs :so Brainfuck without the two I/O commands is still turing complete if given infinite memory cells? < 1698355322 186542 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :different people can have different preferences of the definition, it doesn't matter as long as we can prove them equivalent using simulations < 1698355341 962609 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fellow: yes, Brainfuck without IO on an infinite tape is Turing-complete < 1698355349 512665 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fellow: for what it's worth, my current "simplest picks" for counter-based languages are https://esolangs.org/wiki/The_Waterfall_Model and https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainpocalypse_II, and for queue-based languages are the various simplified tag machines, https://esolangs.org/wiki/Cyclic_tag_system or https://esolangs.org/wiki/Tag_system are probably the most commonly used there < 1698355370 206573 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fellow: I/O isn't needed for Turing-completeness, the definition doesn't consider IO at all < 1698355375 980264 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the Church-Turing thesis showed the computational class all being equivalently powerful for computation/work/simulation/etc < 1698355382 960195 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so we sometimes talk about, e.g., BF-completeness when we care about I/O working < 1698355433 493331 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for the two Magic: the Gathering constructions, M:tG is simulating Flooding Waterfall, which is simualting The Waterfall Machine, which is simulating a Minsky machine, which is simulating a multi-stack machine < 1698355488 259254 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it's simulating Flooding Waterfall Model, which is compiled to from The Waterfall Model, which is interpreting Spiral Rise, which is interpreting a tag system (and Turing machines can be compiled into tag systems) < 1698355491 264118 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :except that the Flooding Waterfall, Waterfall, and Minsky machine stages are strictly limited in how many clocks or counter they can have, because of the limit of 280 or so creature types < 1698355507 181259 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the Spiral Rise interpreter is known to fit within the required number of creature types, which is the reason to do it that way < 1698355507 926936 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, it goes through tag systems instead of Minsky machines? < 1698355511 464661 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see < 1698355528 855801 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, what ais523 says then < 1698355564 709111 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one weird observation I've had recently, which feels like it might be more than a coincidence, is that it's easiest to compile counter machines into counter machines and queue automata into queue automata (unsurprisingly), but also to interpret counter machines with queue automata and queue automata with counter machines < 1698355566 890601 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah 7 clocks is enough for a UTM in waterfall, so like 50 clocks is enough to simulate that in flooding < 1698355589 78617 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1698355591 449814 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :50 would be enough if you could start up with damage marked on the tokens < 1698355607 603492 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in practice you need a few more because that isn't a valid startup state < 1698355686 907780 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: um, I don't understand. Minsky machines should be able to interpret multi-stack machines more directly than Minsky machines can interpret queue automata < 1698355688 148530 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah i dont think we can start predamaged < 1698355727 78179 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :FortyTwoBB: it's fine, there's already a construction to compute a predamaged state rather than starting in it < 1698355735 857835 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's just, that computation needs extra counters to work < 1698355748 878923 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :how do queue automata come into this if you start from counter machines (as opposed to if you start from M:tG or Waterfall)? < 1698355768 679789 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: so the basic idea is that a stack is encoded in counters using the digits of a number < 1698355794 189210 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and a queue can be encoded the same way, you just need to know where the back of the queue is in order to push onto it (via addition) < 1698355835 453116 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but if you don't track the end of the queue and instead just move the push position a set number of place values each time, the resulting language is still generally TC anyway < 1698355857 625327 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, and Minsky machines can only access the lowest digits, like a stack; as opposed to eg. blindfolded arithmetic which could use a number as a deque of digits directly by using an extra counter that stores the unit of the highest digit < 1698355866 965325 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(in fact it is possible to design simple TC queue automata where every cycle pushes a constant amount onto the queue, so the position of the back of the queue moves linearly) < 1698355880 993192 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh! < 1698355885 380081 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: they can only *read* the lowest digits < 1698355899 740675 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :writing at the most significant end is not particularly difficult, though < 1698355937 459417 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so in Minsky machine you can have an unshift-push-pop queue (which can't shift) directly < 1698355943 531240 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's nice, I haven't realized that < 1698355945 709494 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right < 1698355970 954736 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is basically the data structure I used in Esimpl, although I didn't realise at the time how well it mapped onto counter machines < 1698355991 216693 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :how many counters do you need for that to start to work? four? < 1698356007 690328 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe three is enough < 1698356038 837558 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :two counters can implement any number of counters, so the answer to that depends on the extent to which you're allowed to cheat, which is hard to objectively define < 1698356047 948003 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah < 1698356049 154741 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol < 1698356130 159262 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe I didn't realize this because I don't usually *want* to simulate queues instead of stacks < 1698356138 867856 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1698356143 850141 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, Spiral Rise can be implemented with (6 + 1 halt) Waterfall Model counters or (5 + 1 halt) tag system states < 1698356164 908390 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which gets around the lack-of-objective-definition problem by charging for the control flow in addition to the data storage < 1698356181 188133 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, tag system symbols, not states < 1698356272 478927 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and this matters because the translation from Waterfall to Flooding Waterfall is somewhat inefficient in the number of clocks, right? < 1698356318 943325 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yes – it's linear but the constant factor is fairly bad < 1698356328 647538 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :its like 7 clocks per clock plus some overhead < 1698356347 324789 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok < 1698356513 881252 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it's 6 clocks per clock, + constant overhead, + startup overhead, but the startup overhead is linear in the number of clocks < 1698356524 479908 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least with the way ais523 found to do it. its possible that theres a better way, but that's not super relevant < 1698356565 922856 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is almost certainly a better way, but not much incentive to find it at this point < 1698356612 383385 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right < 1698356635 953603 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah this works comfortably and isn't massively more inefficient than necessary < 1698356681 926695 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because as long as you fit in the 280 or so creature types, the actual number of creature types is unlikely to matter for the M:tG construction < 1698356689 872137 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :exactly < 1698356862 326373 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if we were more limited and adding clocks to keep the necromancers alive and a clock or two to keep the output nice was starting to run into the limits of the namespace id be worried, but its nowhere close < 1698357006 766322 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is so theoretical, in real games I think three is the largest number of different tokens that I've produced, perhaps four if I forgot something < 1698357033 239412 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :absolutely < 1698357095 994910 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this deck is unlikely to win any normal game of vintage < 1698357168 212227 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a single force of will or force of vigor or force of negation in the wrong spot kills us < 1698357183 708308 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or not drawing the correct starting hand < 1698357218 684024 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the correct top like 19 cards < 1698357290 285489 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I mean even in those 1/60! games we still force the opponent to draw, and nearly every deck has some 0 mana interaction on the draw. < 1698357294 170311 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my competitive version of the deck (which just aims to do a computation, not to do anything with the output) is now only six sideboard slots away from a real Legacy deck (Legacy rather than Vintage so that there's less disruption to fight through), although that deck cares a lot about its sideboard space < 1698357321 318649 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, it's ais's deck that tries to win games, but the part where the Flooding Waterfall program should fit in the 280 or so creature types applies just as much to ais's dekc < 1698357349 880695 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :FortyTwoBB: one of the top Vintage decks at the moment is mono-white initiative, I don't think it has zero mana interaction pre-board other than start-of-game actions < 1698357363 560540 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so drawing it extra cards is not necessarily going to ruin your chances < 1698357386 495954 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :solitude < 1698357406 742449 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah yes < 1698357487 538221 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :really its just the non-blue shops decks that might just have a mental misstep preboard < 1698357509 825879 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :colorless shops doesn't even run that, apparently (I just checked a list of the top vintage decks) < 1698357540 508567 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although it has mindbreak traps in the sideboard, in case it goes up against a turn 1 combo deck < 1698357575 516033 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and we don't care about mental misstep < 1698357592 743789 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, the deck might potentially be able to combo through a solitude? < 1698357633 190913 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no solitude can interrupt computations < 1698357670 333290 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that makes the deck go cooperatively infinite, and the opponent in this situation presumably isn't cooperating < 1698357706 230780 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well then the exile our riftsweeper and fizzle us < 1698357761 352998 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah right, that's the chokepoint < 1698357812 412612 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the infinite in my competitive deck is *really* janky, it involves using a set of copies of Fractured Identity to transfer a Riftsweeper token back and forth between the players, while there are relevant cards in exile < 1698357812 983986 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think we can still kill them, but its not nearly as impressive < 1698357834 793094 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but enough of them so that the opponent can't unexile enough to stop the combo < 1698357855 110498 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1698357889 630814 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah trying to make SB cards do double duty as actually reasonable magic cards is tricky < 1698358022 942496 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway i g2g soon any thing else i can answer in the next few mins? < 1698358037 835613 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think there's any pressing issues remaining < 1698358049 396273 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least, not that I can think of right now < 1698358061 911847 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is fun watching the progress of the construction in the thread < 1698358078 61309 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ill still logcheck if you think of something < 1698358094 988319 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: you should still summarize or at least link your Netrunner construction from the wiki < 1698358108 297572 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I did on my user page, didn't I? < 1698358113 60879 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unless you are ok with me just reformatting the whole thing to wiki < 1698358122 99380 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah yes, your user page links to it < 1698358131 132420 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1698358135 48931 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but even so, it should have a link from the main namespace too < 1698358150 912945 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so that it's found in normal searches