> 1696119222 248830 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Trianguish14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117278 5* 03Ais523 5* (+34807) 10documenting someone else's language + TCness proof
< 1696121170 634246 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1696121173 475851 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1696121250 48053 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1696121799 553970 :A_Dragon!A_D@libera/staff/dragon NICK :DemonDerg
> 1696123887 750152 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117279&oldid=117183 5* 03Ais523 5* (+17) 10/* T */ +[[Trianguish]]
> 1696126255 519918 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07A Queue which can't grow14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117280&oldid=113346 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+279) 10Introduced an examples section comprehending two initial members, one being a counter, the other an adder.
> 1696126373 727298 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07A Queue which can't grow14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117281&oldid=117280 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+205) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the A Queue which can't grow language on GitHub and changed the category tag Unimplemented to Implemented.
> 1696134221 693285 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pairpointing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117282&oldid=117211 5* 03Fazaazafg 5* (+1760) 10/* Examples */
> 1696134295 384481 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pairpointing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117283&oldid=117282 5* 03Fazaazafg 5* (-9) 10/* Examples */
> 1696135047 455035 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0799 bottles of beer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117284&oldid=116320 5* 03Fazaazafg 5* (+1763) 10/* List of implementations */
> 1696135127 634054 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pairpointing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117285&oldid=117283 5* 03Fazaazafg 5* (-8) 10
< 1696135451 122792 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
< 1696135457 276363 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1696135862 97444 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117286&oldid=117214 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+18) 10
> 1696135895 360656 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117287&oldid=117286 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (-18) 10
> 1696137383 135189 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Omam14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117288&oldid=66990 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+155) 10/* Implementation */ Categories
> 1696137548 495113 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FunctionsFTW/Cat14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117289&oldid=108711 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+23) 10Back
< 1696139455 789224 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1696139481 427896 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
> 1696140413 703381 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117290&oldid=117287 5* 03Esolanger12345 5* (-1) 10
< 1696140416 371253 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1696140960 862848 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
< 1696144417 363390 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1696145852 852590 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1696145973 612785 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-83-73.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
> 1696146348 883359 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Broken Calculator14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117291&oldid=117174 5* 03Europe2048 5* (+32) 10
< 1696147435 2300 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-83-73.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have an idea for how to help ensure that grammars in my formalism describe CSLs.  Every time a symbol is consumed from input, accumulate some fixed amount of "fuel".  Every time new storage is allocated, expend some fixed amount of "fuel".  -->  The storage used is proportional to the length of the input.
< 1696147690 422638 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-83-73.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Linear_bounded_automaton
< 1696148106 774038 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
> 1696152888 424665 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07A Queue which can't grow14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117292&oldid=117281 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+65) 10Added further page categories and amended a few orthographic mistakes.
< 1696152933 358565 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-83-73.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's a sort of Buridan's-ass problem with having a wide range of interests: you can't focus on any one interest enough to do anything significant with it, without neglecting all the other interests.
< 1696154888 597756 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1696155260 326340 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Sandies14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117293 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+0) 10Created blank page
> 1696155338 480247 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117294&oldid=117290 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+22) 10
> 1696155426 27134 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Sandies14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117295&oldid=117293 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+26) 10
> 1696155870 581396 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117296&oldid=117294 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+120) 10
> 1696156007 415845 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117297&oldid=117296 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+36) 10/* you can't see me */
> 1696156269 485286 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117298&oldid=117297 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+104) 10/* i is ghost */
> 1696156464 721580 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117299&oldid=117298 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+15) 10/* ghost */
< 1696156850 456378 :raz3time!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
< 1696156885 308877 :raz3time!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Client Quit
< 1696160956 864158 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:f48c:6ac0:ba79:c93f JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
> 1696162347 45544 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Chicken14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117300&oldid=117269 5* 03None1 5* (+9) 10/* undefined */
> 1696164289 467473 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:Wrongname14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117301 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+155) 10/* this is a joke, just like Template:Sus */
> 1696164368 445354 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117302&oldid=117299 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+33) 10
> 1696164513 706510 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117303&oldid=117302 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+5) 10/* Play Area (Don't clear after use!) */
> 1696164578 451797 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117304&oldid=117303 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+52) 10/* (The Limit)+1 */
< 1696165905 315125 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1696169831 94254 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1696170079 288115 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
> 1696170672 10514 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117305&oldid=117257 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+116) 10Truth machine gets an upgrade!
> 1696170704 562107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117306&oldid=117305 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+2) 10Adding some appropriate bullet points
> 1696170726 297554 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117307&oldid=117306 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (-1) 10bullet point went wrong
> 1696170743 716784 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117308&oldid=117307 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+1) 10went wrong again
> 1696170921 412054 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117309&oldid=117308 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+0) 10/* again */
> 1696171002 765851 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117310&oldid=117225 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+7) 10/* Bawkbawk */
> 1696171029 96262 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117311&oldid=117309 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+2) 10/* missing one character */
< 1696171443 862534 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1696172431 493127 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
< 1696172453 638454 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-83-73.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1696174554 154564 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :an observation I made recently: the primary difference between https://esolangs.org/wiki/Spiral_Rise and a tag system is that tag systems push onto the end of the queue, whereas Spiral Rise pushes onto a known location that might be before or after the end of the queue
< 1696174601 713177 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :apart from that, it's basically just Genera Tag where all the symbols have the same production map, but can have different widths (not quite the same because the way the position wraps is different)
< 1696174671 865759 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :meanwhile, Genera Tag with all the productions padded to the same length has the same behaviour for the end of the queue – the queue length increases by a constant on every step, so you can find the location to push to via just increasing the location by a constant (as in Spiral Rise) rather than looking for where the end of the queue is
< 1696174762 253724 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, the question: is Genera Tag Turing-complete under the restrictions that a) all symbols have the same production map, differing only in width; b) that map maps all positions but 0 to the same single symbol, with the production for 0 being different?
< 1696174786 867926 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the resulting language is basically the common subset of Genera Tag and Spiral Rise, which is really interesting to me because I didn't even realise those languages had a common subset until just now
< 1696174899 964727 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw, this is making me think of a generalisation of Spiral Rise where productions can move the "tail of the queue" pointer a different distance from the amount that they write to that pointer
< 1696175011 386453 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and if you write onto the same cell twice, the symbols "add" in some sense (at least obeying the rule 0 + x = x)
< 1696175032 212674 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* a generalisation of Genera Tag
< 1696175034 282908 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although I guess it's both
< 1696175311 982713 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Quit: Go back to your cringe 9 to 5. I'll be gaming.
> 1696175791 792357 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Prime numbers generator14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117312&oldid=97085 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+9) 10Stub
> 1696175920 177242 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Meta Memes14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117313&oldid=96948 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+24) 10Category
< 1696176438 245929 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:f48c:6ac0:ba79:c93f QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
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< 1696177894 753031 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
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< 1696179001 865064 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie
< 1696180431 863207 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1696180515 613638 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-83-73.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
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< 1696186324 734648 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1696186331 792614 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03WaywardFractal 5*  10New user account
> 1696187007 616501 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117314&oldid=117151 5* 03WaywardFractal 5* (+102) 10Said hi
< 1696187124 138122 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-83-73.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Showing that some given thing is Turing-complete (or more generally foo-complete) is a common activity in this community.
< 1696187373 401110 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I find TCness proofs to be a good way to improve the language that you're compiling from / interpreting in order to prove the TCnes
< 1696187375 162608 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* TCness
< 1696187408 42469 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you have a lot of proofs of languages A, B, C, etc. by compiling from X, you can then look at your implementations of X in A, B, C, and think, what other languages could I also implement using these same implementations?
< 1696187430 96127 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and is there a change to X that would simplify all the original programs, and would X still be TC after that change?
< 1696187475 866250 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then maybe you come up with Y, which is an improved version of X, in that it has more power in ways that don't make it harder to implement, and is easier to implement in ways that don't make it less powerful
> 1696187880 854094 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfish++14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117315&oldid=117262 5* 03Europe2048 5* (+1) 10
> 1696189407 123248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NASAL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117316&oldid=109306 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+614) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the NASAL programming language on GitHub and supplemented two page category tags.
> 1696189561 613704 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NASAL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117317&oldid=117316 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+368) 10Introduced an examples section comprehending two initial members: one demonstrating the while loop in conjunction with the pop operation, the other the same iterative facility with rearrangements.
> 1696189726 239485 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NASAL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117318&oldid=117317 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+0) 10Rectified the BitBrain equivalency entry for the start of the program, as the same lacked the zero-valued integer argument and instead employed m instructions.
< 1696190190 782924 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Quit: gone too far
< 1696190925 285796 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1696193378 221640 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07The Waterfall Model14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117319&oldid=115309 5* 03Ais523 5* (+207) 10add See also section, and a little discussion of the Flooding variant
< 1696193648 991870 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-83-73.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was thinking that most of these proofs are bisimulation proofs, or rather compiler correctness proofs. You have the language of foo, you have a compiler from foo to bar (call it foobar), and you show that, for all x, foo(x) ~ bar(foobar(x)).  Where ~ means "equivalent to" and includes non-termination.
< 1696193711 904373 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-83-73.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was going to say "language of Turing machines" instead of "language of foo", but I think in practice there are very few TCness proof that refer directly to Turing machines. I think most go back to a language that has already been established to be Turing-complete.
< 1696193723 351610 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right
< 1696193730 344721 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't see why you'd want foo(x) ~ bar(foobar(x)) directly
< 1696193740 223602 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh I see
< 1696193741 884859 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the most recent proof where I did Turing machines directly was https://esolangs.org/wiki/Addition_Automaton and that was only because it was trivially easy
< 1696193743 979922 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :foobar is the compiler
< 1696193786 881154 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Turing machines are unnatural in a way because they move along a tape but have to eject the same amount of tape on one side that they consume on the other
< 1696193807 590727 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which means that you can't store arbitrary data in arbitrary parts of the tape, you have to go all the way to the end to find new memory to write to
< 1696193829 59421 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yep
< 1696193848 767225 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I agree with cpressey that the way you formalise an "X is TC" proof is to prove that Y is TC and to prove that a compiler from Y to X is correct
< 1696193853 641153 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :usually you instead naturally simulate two stacks
< 1696193882 747388 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am increasingly coming to believe that tarpits basically fall into two categories, queue machines and counter machines
< 1696193890 612973 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and anything else is insufficiently restrictive to be a tarpit
< 1696193925 470902 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the Blindfolded arithmetic proof naturally gives you three stacks; two different Consumer Society proofs give you two stacks directly (though you can go faster than with a two-stack machine, which is why Consumer Society is more of a language of my style than the tarpits)
< 1696193954 612346 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the two-variable blindfolded arithmetic proof is a counter machine rather than stack machine
< 1696194007 26095 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it only gets one number to store data in because the other is needed as a temporary, so it uses the "product of prime powers" technique to store arbitrarily many counters (and from there I implemented The Waterfall Model, which in this context is basically a special case of FRACTRAN)
< 1696194050 10007 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm
< 1696194052 998808 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the speed question has been intriguing me to some extent: it's why I created https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esimpl
< 1696194066 298039 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is as fast as a Turing machine, or if restricted to queues only, as fast as a queue automaton
< 1696194082 695060 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, I think "as fast as a Turing machine" is beatable by things that aren't Turing machines
< 1696194103 82971 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is there a way to distinguish between "as fast as a Turing machine" and "as fast as a two-stack machine"?
< 1696194163 158340 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know there's a distinction between two-stack machine and three-stack machine because the two-stack machine can't reverse (or sort) a list of bits quickly
< 1696194171 270845 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a Turing machine can implement an n-stack machine with only a constant factor slowdown
< 1696194180 773819 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, no, that's wrong
< 1696194186 213548 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I got confused with something else
< 1696194195 433527 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it probably is possible to distinguish
< 1696194232 922422 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think a Turing-machine is as fast as brainfuck, within constant factor
< 1696194257 994099 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(where the constant factor might depend on the program)
< 1696194271 770488 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for non-bignum brainfuck, you can compile brainfuck into a Turing machine directly
< 1696194282 102658 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :bignum brainfuck is substantially different though I think
< 1696194300 238065 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah
< 1696194321 477071 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, I was thinking of brainfuck with 8-bit cells 
< 1696194359 62312 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Esimpl can do bignum brainfuck, implementing all the commands in O(1) apart from < and > which are O(log n) of the value on the cell
< 1696194365 330809 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is actually probably faster than a Turing machine
< 1696194384 931261 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unless there's some clever encoding I haven't thought of
< 1696194401 998287 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, actually, no, + and - are also O(log n)
< 1696194425 821804 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder if turing machine can actually simulate two-stack with constant slowdown with some clever amortized copying solution
< 1696194430 639592 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :amortized O(1) is possible for + and - I think, but would add a bunch of complexity
< 1696194471 40058 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(while retaining O(log n) < and >)
< 1696194570 233422 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: a two-stack machine can sort a list of bits quickly: you do a radix sort with the 0s in 1 stack and the 1s in the other stack
< 1696194579 405434 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* 0s in one stack and 1s in the other stack
< 1696194623 560457 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, you're assuming that the list of bits starts on one of the stacks, so you only get the other one to work with
< 1696194630 865365 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :another question is how you measure the difference between a three-stack machine and a more powerful machine, like one with pointers (a machine with finite control, a bunch of pointer registers, and it can cons and setcar) or one on a tree-shaped memory of cells (like Treehugger but with finite control)
> 1696194634 786509 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Not Python14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117320&oldid=117275 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+0) 10/* Syntactic extensions */ Fix capitalisatoin
< 1696194660 225446 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, I phrased that in a silly way, sorting bits is easy because you can just count the number of 0s and 1s
< 1696194678 441259 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one of the things that I feel like I've been fighting against recently is the assumption that programs have an arbitrary FSM available to control them
< 1696194681 360360 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I should say sorting a list of words of arbitrary lengths
< 1696194683 569426 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and just need to do the data storage
< 1696194726 751433 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in practice, implementing the control part of a language can be just as hard as implementing the data part, and most of my recent languages have been trying to find ways to make the control and data the same thing
< 1696194733 837214 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure
> 1696194747 695275 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Not Python14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117321&oldid=117320 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+1) 10/* Comparison */
< 1696194761 90643 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's kind of the point of Blindfolded arithmetic
< 1696194769 337374 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. tag systems don't have an FSM, if they did they would be queue automata instead
< 1696194806 287246 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you are programming in a tag system, you have to resign yourself to the fact that the position in which a symbol is interpreted is based on the sum of widths of everything to its left
< 1696194819 971043 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which were determined on the generation before
< 1696194859 149879 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, any sort of communication from one symbol to another a) has a time delay and b) affects a segment of the tape up to the symbol that cancels it again
< 1696194933 654328 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :isn't that only true for a restricted tag system that consumes input in fixed width chunks?
< 1696194939 403994 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are some minor modifications to tag systems that would avoid this problem, e.g. imagine a tag system symbol that causes the next symbol to also be produced from if this symbol is produced from (rather than skipping the next m-1 symbols as usual)
< 1696194953 447072 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the time delay comes from the queue, it's not specific to tag systems
< 1696194994 776807 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: no, for me it's true by definition for tag systems, as in I define whether something is a tag system variant or not by whether a symbol can have a "local" effect on the symbols near it or on whether it can only affect the far end of the queue
< 1696195015 567248 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a queue automaton can, say, scan a queue and output all the symbols that immediately follow a given symbol X
< 1696195029 188004 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thus, e.g., "ABXCDEXFXG" would output "CFG"
< 1696195045 188217 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in a tag system, you can't do that all, not even if X is a different width from the other symbols
< 1696195069 173775 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok
< 1696195074 488004 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the input would need to look more like "ABXCYDEXFYXGY", i.e. with a separate symbol to say "stop outputting here"
< 1696195131 324898 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :an interesting side effect is that tag systems are bad at interpreting queue-based languages (including interpreting other tag systems), they are better at interpreting counter-based languages
< 1696195145 517353 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…which is also why tag system TCness is normally proved using compilers rather than intepreters
> 1696195304 812394 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117322 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+6996) 10Created page with " is an esolang by [[User:BoundedBeans]] intended to achieve a certain visual appearance, and to use a lot of his favorite symbol.  ==Syntax== Every line should have exactly 20 regular characters and 20 combining diacritical marks. They should be paired up in such a way th
< 1696195317 695268 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's even if you allow a large number of symbols for the tag system, right?
< 1696195323 666712 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1696195335 985143 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :assuming you need to be able to handle arbitrarily long strings
> 1696195411 86431 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117323&oldid=117279 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+11) 10
< 1696195423 922588 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"print the first character of this string" is possible in tag systems in O(log n) time, which is better than I initially expected but still slower than a queue automaton
> 1696195441 129471 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:BoundedBeans14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117324&oldid=116395 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+10) 10
< 1696195504 455763 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(you can find every character in a position that's 1 mod 2, then every character in a position that's 2 mod 4, then 4 mod 8, etc., until eventually only the character in position 0 has been found)
< 1696195529 60908 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, only the character in position 0 has been unfound, and then it knows it's the character in position 0
< 1696195590 295592 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh, does this work for AORS too? if so then it might be possible to get a sub-exponential TCness proof (but still not linear)
< 1696195619 642113 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the difference is that in a tag system, the string is capable of knowing for itself when the last character has been found, but in AORS some external thing to the left would need to have an idea of how long the string is
< 1696195638 663801 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which it can't know exactly in general, but it's possible to get an estimate that's always exactly right or too high, never too low
< 1696195685 993351 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I guess the problem reduces to "what's the slowest-growing increasing function that you can calculate in AORS" which is non-obvious
> 1696196027 475899 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cammy/Hives14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117325&oldid=117025 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1065) 10/* Encoding of v2 Hives */ Flesh out the rest of the current hive functionality.
< 1696197183 627073 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-83-73.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1696204788 883881 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:c87e:187e:505c:24f9 QUIT :Quit: Leaving...
< 1696205551 890449 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :You know how it's typical for ELF executables to put the ELF headers into a segment that gets loaded into memory? Is there also a convenient magic symbol for the address that's the start of the executable, the same way there's _etext / _edata / _end? 
< 1696205553 334090 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have a binary that wants to introspect its own headers, and it currently just `open`s /proc/self/exe, but it seems silly if they're already loaded.
< 1696206473 137974 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The extended context is, I'm embedding some resources in the binary that I don't want persistently loaded in memory, so I'm putting them in a special section that's not loaded into the process image, but instead at runtime mapping the relevant section of the file when needed. But this needs the file offset of the section.
< 1696206723 961024 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know much about it (or how to access them from a C code, how to program the linker to do such things, etc; it is probably documented but I have not read all of them)
< 1696207211 994156 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it's possible the linker could even directly provide the file offset of the section as a symbol, but that'd probably require writing a custom linker script.
< 1696207551 591310 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1696207701 916591 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1696210723 288501 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.167 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
> 1696212791 83747 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Paracompact633 5*  10New user account
> 1696213076 410707 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117326&oldid=117314 5* 03Paracompact633 5* (+217) 10/* Introductions */ Add introduction
> 1696215505 748670 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Parenthesis Hell14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117327&oldid=70709 5* 03Paracompact633 5* (+343) 10/* Description */ Add explanation on how values work
< 1696219526 615661 :CAT_S!apic@brezn3.muc.ccc.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1696220303 890307 :CAT_S!apic@brezn3.muc.ccc.de JOIN #esolangs CAT_S :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149
> 1696222878 312671 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Eitherf*ck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117328&oldid=75781 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+47) 10Categories
< 1696225602 586453 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Does any programming language have a scientific numeric type, that will keep track of the precision and sigfigs as well?
< 1696228931 195866 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: yes, e.g. Math::BigFloat in Perl
< 1696228934 486236 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think "BigDecimal" is a common name
< 1696229086 300138 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, I don't think it adapts the precision as arithmetic operations occur
< 1696229126 251315 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so 1.00001 - 1.00002 is stil believed to be accurate to six significant figures, even though only about 0-1 significant figure is actually available
< 1696229221 654376 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1696229511 111125 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:8dc8:156e:a258:819e JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
> 1696229571 548872 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Transet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117329&oldid=117239 5* 03GUAqwq 5* (+105) 10/* Personal problem on the interpreter or on haskell */
> 1696231314 993282 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117330&oldid=117323 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+17) 10/* B */
> 1696231732 811180 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07(SIASL)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117331&oldid=108168 5* 03K.avi 5* (+6) 10/* Meta instructions */
> 1696232923 32664 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Chicken14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117332&oldid=117300 5* 03None1 5* (+16) 10/* NaN */
< 1696232984 528390 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1696235105 429214 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1696235760 748798 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1696236545 255983 :sprout!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-1-1589-30f2-2d19-2ec7.fixed6.kpn.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
> 1696236594 876330 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dip14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117333&oldid=117231 5* 03D 5* (+58) 10
> 1696236602 240681 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dip14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117334&oldid=117333 5* 03D 5* (-1) 10
< 1696236905 35786 :sprout!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-1-9caa-2abf-5a47-be39.fixed6.kpn.net JOIN #esolangs * :sprout
> 1696237689 420377 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dip14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117335&oldid=117334 5* 03D 5* (+6) 10More descriptive intro
> 1696237708 514370 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dip14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117336&oldid=117335 5* 03D 5* (+0) 10
< 1696239419 345665 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1696239659 785269 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
> 1696244129 238454 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07List of ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117337&oldid=114874 5* 03GUAqwq 5* (+38) 10/* Ideas for Names */
< 1696247741 854531 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie
< 1696251340 866458 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1696251813 776927 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
> 1696252986 646510 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Transet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117338&oldid=117234 5* 03GUAqwq 5* (-82) 10/* Binary numbers to integer */
> 1696253065 806237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Transet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117339&oldid=117338 5* 03GUAqwq 5* (+30) 10/* Computational class */
> 1696253073 594706 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Transet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117340&oldid=117339 5* 03GUAqwq 5* (-2) 10/* Computational class */
> 1696253636 384354 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Transet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117341&oldid=117340 5* 03GUAqwq 5* (+99) 10/* Computational class */  now Transet is Turing Complete. Yeahhhhhhhhh
> 1696253664 127829 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Transet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117342&oldid=117341 5* 03GUAqwq 5* (+1) 10/* Binary numbers to integer */
> 1696253831 611390 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Transet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117343&oldid=117342 5* 03GUAqwq 5* (+118) 10/* Binary numbers to integer */
> 1696253854 206167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Transet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117344&oldid=117343 5* 03GUAqwq 5* (-28) 10/* Computational class */
> 1696253886 914280 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117345&oldid=117311 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+465) 10adding minor help stuff
> 1696253891 786577 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Transet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117346&oldid=117344 5* 03GUAqwq 5* (+0) 10/* Overview */
> 1696253912 382400 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Transet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117347&oldid=117346 5* 03GUAqwq 5* (+0) 10/* Overview */
> 1696253928 709612 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117348&oldid=117345 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (-2) 10small grammar mistake
> 1696254036 497772 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Transet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117349&oldid=117329 5* 03GUAqwq 5* (+99) 10
> 1696254055 496723 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Transet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117350&oldid=117349 5* 03GUAqwq 5* (+9) 10/* Personal problem on the interpreter or on haskell */
> 1696254081 841284 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117351&oldid=117348 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (-10) 10forgot about the pentadecimal part
> 1696254171 311618 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117352&oldid=117351 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+0) 10no edits
> 1696254260 251485 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117353&oldid=117352 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+79) 10disclaimer
> 1696254334 610027 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117354&oldid=117353 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (-68) 10oops no need for that
> 1696258687 866755 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Transet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117355&oldid=117347 5* 03GUAqwq 5* (+244) 10Add Info Box
< 1696258720 512602 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe QUIT :Quit: zzzz <3
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> 1696258825 41735 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Transet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117356&oldid=117355 5* 03GUAqwq 5* (+6) 10
> 1696259077 470645 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainlove14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117357&oldid=105199 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+29) 10Categories
< 1696259090 955779 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a QUIT :Quit: Leaving.
< 1696259148 73747 :Thelie!~Thelie@185.66.193.30 JOIN #esolangs * :Thelie
< 1696259602 821422 :Thelie!~Thelie@185.66.193.30 QUIT :Quit: Leaving.
< 1696260626 543746 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:d115:ecfe:1ef4:7596 JOIN #esolangs * :Thelie
< 1696260928 770301 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:d115:ecfe:1ef4:7596 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
> 1696261126 512600 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfish++14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117358&oldid=117315 5* 03Europe2048 5* (+18) 10
< 1696261179 168293 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1696262351 606674 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie
< 1696263986 613852 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-82-207.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696265993 504047 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-82-207.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1696266361 615985 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-82-207.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696266460 380013 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-82-207.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ha, I just accidentally posted something in #haskell that I meant to post in here.
< 1696266481 990625 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-82-207.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Something interesting I stumbled across recently, hadn't encountered before, might be of interest here: Augmenting a finite automaton with a single memory cell that holds an element of a given monoid or group: https://arxiv.org/abs/math/0601061v2
< 1696266501 352055 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-82-207.as13285.net QUIT :Client Quit
< 1696267075 619499 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696267077 976644 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, do you get more from two monoid/group memory cells rather than one (like you do from two integer cells)?
< 1696267309 666789 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would imagine you could (often? sometimes?) use a single memory cell with the Cartesian product of the two monoids / groups.
< 1696267318 193616 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Then again, it's been a long day, my brain is guessing
< 1696267753 200090 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :So for a finite automaton with some sort of cell containing an integer and some reasonable operations (increment/decrement/check for zero?), I vaguely remember that one gives you something weird, but two gives you something Turing-equivalent.
< 1696267893 929991 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:8dc8:156e:a258:819e QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1696269684 393484 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1696269903 684482 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, it's something like, a counter can emulate a stack, so a 1-counter automaton can simulate a PDA and a 2-counter automaton can simulate an automaton with two stacks, i.e., a tape, i.e. a TM.
< 1696269959 546941 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think a 1-counter automaton can simulate a PDA.
< 1696269980 862589 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think you need two counters for a stack, with one scratch counter to do any operations on it.
< 1696269982 504641 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure what carries over when you generalize from integers to these algebraic objects though.  The idea seems to be the automaton accepts only if the value returns to the identity element.  If you have e.g. a free monoid, that's basically never going to happen
< 1696269998 406078 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :So you can do two stacks with four counters. But you can also simulate four counters with two counters. Something like that.
< 1696271320 496724 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :b_jonas
< 1696271475 637042 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: what operations do you have on that element? if you have an element that's a pair of integers, but you can only multiply it with a constant or compare to zero, then that probably won't let you make a two-counter machine. 
< 1696271644 698289 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although it's possible that it might give you more power than a one-counter machine, because you could eg. recognize strings from {a,b,c,d} alphabet that has an equal number of a to b and equal number of c to d, which I think you can't do on a one-counter machine. if you have just one counter, you can't multiply it with primes so you can't do the encoding trick like with two counters.
< 1696271658 625832 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1696271667 79150 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't really know what you can recognize with one counter in fact
< 1696272261 613944 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696272304 770178 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: you're right, I had to look it up again; you need 2 counters to simulate a stack.  So 4 counters can simulate a tape.  But (somehow) 2 counters can also simulate 4 counters so can simulate a tape.
< 1696272655 545753 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had started to read the linked PDF.
< 1696272664 39129 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a JOIN #esolangs * :Thelie
< 1696272912 299228 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot, how do you spell "antediluvian"?
< 1696273016 268858 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: yes, two counters (or, if you prefer, two stacks with just one possible symbol on the stack but an empty stack distinguishable) is Turing-complete, you just get another level of exponential slowdown compared to having three or more counters, see https://esolangs.org/wiki/Minsky_machine
< 1696273205 630957 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: re "what operations do you have on that element" -- that element is a member of a monoid (or group).  The operation you get, is the monoid (or group) operation.
< 1696273268 733088 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: right, but you need some operation in how it can affect the automata, like the finite control part can compare the value to zero and go to a different state depending on whether it is, but it could be something more than that
< 1696273304 76231 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or it could be less, like the value is only accessable at the very end when the machine wants to halt, and forces the machine to fail to terminate if the value is nonzero
< 1696274038 624899 :SGautam!uid286066@id-286066.ilkley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs SGautam :Siddharth Gautam
< 1696274158 612971 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1696274593 286633 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:18ab:51a0:d512:1d80 JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
< 1696274679 612852 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696274751 331185 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: How the element effects the automaton is, the automaton only accepts if the element is the identity element of the (monoid|group).  This is all pretty clearly described on the first page of the paper
< 1696274820 553304 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would think that the blind counter automata could accept e.g. ("xyz",0) if it originally accepted "xyz" according to the definition of "blind counter automata" in the document
< 1696276300 438331 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: oh, so you were reading a paper. ok.
< 1696276326 991764 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, you linked to https://arxiv.org/abs/math/0601061v2
< 1696277540 146371 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1696278032 24767 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1696278083 890750 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a JOIN #esolangs * :Thelie
> 1696278279 538986 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Nice14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117359 5* 03Europe2048 5* (+136) 10Created page with "An interepter for Nice may not be possible. --~~~~"
< 1696278708 567070 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1696278734 647549 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: in a stunning example of incredibly slow TCness constructions, my TCness proof for Netrunner uses two counters to simulate two counters
< 1696278782 517763 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(using the normal "2 counters to simulate n counters" construction where one of the counters is a temporary, and the other stores products of primes Fractran-style
< 1696278785 287776 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :)
< 1696278810 621346 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so there's an extra exponential slowdown on top of the usual for two-counter machines
< 1696278863 827360 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I did it that way because control flow around one of the counters is incredibly limited and I could only just about get a doubler, tripler, halver and thirder implemented in the space available
< 1696278999 989884 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :<cpressey> shachaf: you're right, I had to look it up again; you need 2 counters to simulate a stack.  So 4 counters can simulate a tape.  But (somehow) 2 counters can also simulate 4 counters so can simulate a tape. ← to simulate a stack, you need 1 counter + 1 temporary; to simulate two stacks, you only need 2 counters + 1 temporary because they can share the temporary as long as you don't try to read from / write to both stacks at the same time
< 1696279039 928539 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the temporary is needed to do multiplications/divisions, for much the same reason that you need a temporary to multiply/divide a cell in brainfuck
< 1696279087 493420 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Isn't there a construction that uses 1 counter + 1 temporary for two stacks?
< 1696279108 491626 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: you can do it indirectly, but not directly
< 1696279140 839384 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :by encoding two counters and a temporary into one of the counters, then using the other counter as a temporary to operate on it
< 1696279927 488633 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, encoding as prime products, so your one counter is 2**a*3**b*5**c*... to encode a small number of counters (a,b,c,...), and you use the temporary to do multiplications and divisions (undoing the division if you find that it's not divisible) on the one real counter to simulate increment and decrement-zero-test on the simulated counters
< 1696279986 936596 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thus two levels of exponential slowdown to a two-counter Minsky machine, and three levels to ais523's netrunner proof
< 1696280063 398460 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1696280111 105358 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suspect at least one of those levels is not essential to the Netrunner proof
< 1696280319 870767 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh boy, I haven't seen this one before: https://knexator.itch.io/tres-undos
< 1696280370 580206 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: that is either the same or similar to another game that someone mentioned on this channel
< 1696280445 826659 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2023-03.html#l2u
< 1696280527 72290 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so no, not the same game
< 1696280579 727620 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but they do have some things in common
< 1696281056 340074 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Quit: gone too far
> 1696281056 654615 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Spiral Rise14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117360&oldid=95429 5* 03Ais523 5* (-4405) 10tag systems are Turing-complete with only 5 symbols, because you can compile any (without loss of generality) Spiral Rise program into a 5-symbol tag system
> 1696281103 771154 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Spiral Rise14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117361&oldid=117360 5* 03Ais523 5* (+15) 10/* 5-symbol tag system */ fix table formatting
< 1696281150 949168 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have not play game (it is not working on my computer), although, it does resemble other game I saw mentioned here before, which also I had seen some picture and guess its working, like it is based on undo some things but not others, I think.
< 1696281167 844846 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I didn't expect tag systems to get quite *that* small – 19 seemed improvable-on but 5 is a big improvement from there
> 1696281343 278449 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Spiral Rise14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117362&oldid=117361 5* 03Ais523 5* (+5564) 10restore the rest of the page, which accidentally got deleted (my browser crashed while I was making a previous edit, which may have caused the problem)
< 1696281707 423185 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1696281806 497413 :SGautam!uid286066@id-286066.ilkley.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
> 1696283949 449348 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Theki/Dummy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117363&oldid=107804 5* 03Theki 5* (+19) 10/* Data Types */
> 1696284294 386000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117364&oldid=108174 5* 03Theki 5* (+2) 10
< 1696285974 925295 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:18ab:51a0:d512:1d80 QUIT :Quit: Leaving...
< 1696287162 441503 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1696287339 974203 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1696287369 163570 :moony3!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony JOIN #esolangs moony :Kaylie! (she/her)
< 1696291903 390150 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have installed Xfig 3.2.8 and already found two things wrong that I corrected; one is that one file doesn't check if it should use Xaw3d or not (and therefore won't compile without Xaw3d), and other is that clicking the rulers to scroll will always scroll the same amount instead of depending on where you clicked on.
< 1696291979 424899 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Fix amounts scrolling is still possible by pushing the arrows, though)
< 1696292586 769726 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Although, the scrolling working is not really a bug; it is documented. But, it is inconsistent with xterm.)
< 1696293166 293690 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :In future, hopefully function to be added can include: additional keyboard commands (e.g. quick access to object attributes), text with TRON code, and possibly some others too.
< 1696293996 886680 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1696294051 659340 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1696297958 598698 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1696298383 953626 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
> 1696300647 936003 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:GUAqwq14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117365&oldid=117230 5* 03GUAqwq 5* (-1959) 10Replaced content with "==My esolangs== * [[Tetrastack]] (TC) * [[Transet]] (TC)"
> 1696300774 301542 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Transet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117366&oldid=117356 5* 03GUAqwq 5* (-3) 10
< 1696302044 830016 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry about my connection
> 1696302425 396246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117367&oldid=117354 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+4) 10/* +4 bytes */
< 1696302972 977531 :moony3!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1696303006 406160 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony JOIN #esolangs moony :Kaylie! (she/her)
> 1696306543 638940 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117368&oldid=117367 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+240) 10two new commands!
> 1696306645 412505 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117369&oldid=117368 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+32) 10/* Truth machine */  gets an upgrade!
< 1696309282 903706 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Why doesn't Xfig set the focus of windows when they are displayed? All other Xaw-based programs (including ones that I write myself) do so automatically, without needing to adding anything special into the program.
< 1696317830 500917 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I fixed it by adding a window manager setting specific for this program, although that doesn't seems best way to do it.
< 1696318342 863697 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:20cb:c65b:a88:274a JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
< 1696320742 105065 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1696322241 829233 :sprout_!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-1-945d-e8f0-805c-53d5.fixed6.kpn.net JOIN #esolangs * :sprout
< 1696322271 986593 :sprout!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-1-9caa-2abf-5a47-be39.fixed6.kpn.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1696325449 751784 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NASAL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117370&oldid=117318 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (-4) 10Rectified an orthographic mistake.
< 1696325701 614605 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696326144 997380 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I haven't read the paper in detail, but to shachaf's original question, I can't see what having more than one group-based memory cell could give you over having just one, because I can't think of any case where you can't encode the information that resides in two elements of a group into a single element of a combined group.  Then again, IANAGT.
< 1696326253 163302 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think there probably groups that you can augment a FSM with, that make it Turing-complete, or make it into a PDA, etc.  I think the idea is more about investigating what groups relate to what computability classes.
< 1696326277 353342 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1696326306 958921 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
< 1696328752 247315 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :PDA seems easier with a monoid
< 1696328798 859428 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The point is, you can have pure right inverses with a a^-1 = 1 but not a^-1 a = 1. Can't do that in groups.)
< 1696329470 831024 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: Especially in the case of groups, the term "memory" is a bit misleading since the automaton can't inspect it. With inspection capabilities having more than one group could become useful. Without I agree that you get the same effect with direct products.
< 1696329692 511158 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(There are /probably/ tricks to get a PDA with a group. I just can't work it out.)
> 1696329718 520463 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Moltony112 5*  10New user account
> 1696329881 648479 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117371&oldid=117326 5* 03Moltony112 5* (+152) 10/* Introductions */
> 1696331203 320926 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Nice14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117372&oldid=117359 5* 03None1 5* (+151) 10
> 1696331247 131236 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/ToDo14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117373&oldid=117178 5* 03None1 5* (+67) 10/* Content */
< 1696331410 522629 :sprout_!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-1-945d-e8f0-805c-53d5.fixed6.kpn.net NICK :sprout
< 1696332382 740807 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, groups might have too much symmetry to make a PDA, I dunno.
< 1696332456 561004 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :For a more bizarre take, we might observe that 1 counter isn't enough to make a PDA and 2 counters is too many, so how many counters do you need to make a PDA, anyway?  1.414, perhaps?
< 1696338058 203270 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: true, the automaton can't inspect the "memory", but a thought just occurred to me.  If the automaton is non-deterministic then we can think of its choice points as guesses of the value of the memory cell, and the accepting paths will be those where all of those guesses were correct.  Not sure if this is a good substitute for actually being
< 1696338058 702703 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :able to inspect the cell, but it... sounds somewhat plausible.
< 1696338139 382547 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I should probably read the paper, it's just that that's, like, a lot of concentration-commitment that I don't want to make atm
< 1696338155 11910 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Would rather run my mouth off on IRC apparently
< 1696339224 37705 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, I assumed that we were going to use non-determinism.
< 1696339262 199697 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have not read the full paper either. I skimmed for keywords, saw some hints of product constructions...
< 1696339275 277807 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And I checked some definitions.
< 1696339545 318309 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: The point I was making about monoids was basically that yes, you can actually get inspection through speculative execution, so to speak. If you have a a^-1 = 1 but no reduction for b a^-1 (b != a) or a^-1 b (b = a allowed), then thats exactly the same as popping a from a stack. And you still have product monoids, so you can have many stacks. So that'll be TC.
< 1696339577 59567 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"that" being "appending a^-1 to the monoid component"
> 1696339828 793730 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Starfish14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117374&oldid=107982 5* 03ApisNecros 5* (+1) 10Change link to https
> 1696340413 782390 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Alpha14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117375 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+589) 10Created page with "'''Alpha''' is an esoteric programming language that is part of a series by [[User:Infinitehexagon]] on Greek esolangs that will be a derivative of the previous esolang with more commands, less commands, or modified commands. So far it has 6 commands. {| class="wik
> 1696340487 134011 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Alpha14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117376&oldid=117375 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+69) 10
> 1696340668 247059 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Alpha14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117377&oldid=117376 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+106) 10
> 1696340972 79630 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Alpha14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117378&oldid=117377 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+115) 10
> 1696341217 711449 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Alpha14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117379&oldid=117378 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+22) 10
> 1696341888 654822 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Alpha14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117380&oldid=117379 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+180) 10
> 1696342223 462588 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Alpha14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117381&oldid=117380 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+245) 10
> 1696342241 657364 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Alpha14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117382&oldid=117381 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+7) 10/* Hello World */
> 1696342385 944105 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Alpha14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117383&oldid=117382 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+43) 10
> 1696342576 723478 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Alpha14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117384&oldid=117383 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+59) 10
> 1696342591 813733 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Alpha14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117385&oldid=117384 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+1) 10
> 1696342677 902782 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Alpha14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117386&oldid=117385 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+2) 10
> 1696342697 282998 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Infinitehexagon14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117387&oldid=116600 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+14) 10/* My Esolangs (chronological order) */
> 1696343164 502319 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DStack14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117388&oldid=51744 5* 03Europe2048 5* (+0) 10Fixed a  typo.
> 1696344859 84324 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117389&oldid=117369 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+437) 10life becomes easier
> 1696344959 838678 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117390&oldid=117389 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+0) 10/* Commands */ wut happened?
> 1696344989 440348 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117391&oldid=117390 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (-9) 10/* Commands */ wut happnd agen?
> 1696345012 264788 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117392&oldid=117391 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (-1) 10/* Commands */ HUH?
< 1696345034 14166 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1696345043 487646 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi everyone!
> 1696345052 293483 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117393&oldid=117392 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+12) 10/* Commands */ this must work
< 1696345096 74982 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, hi +esolangs! I'm User:Europe2048 on Esolangs.
> 1696345237 324716 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117394&oldid=117393 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+7) 10/* Text to Bawkbawk */ fixin' the script
< 1696345349 733841 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think he's a bot.
< 1696345380 569017 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PART :#esolangs
< 1696345383 658962 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1696345404 633548 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi Europe2048!
< 1696345405 387 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi, anyone here?
< 1696345422 106193 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi cpressey, I'm User:Europe2048!
< 1696345491 110721 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :The IRC channel is quiet a lot of the time these days, but there is occasional activity.  The logs tell the story
> 1696345509 731198 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117395&oldid=117394 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (-443) 10script doesn't work :c
< 1696345558 608075 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, I joined Libera just now.
< 1696345665 72953 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I joined Libera recently too.  The last time I was here was back in the freenode era.
< 1696345872 478633 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :What's your Esolangs username and how long ago did you join Esolangs?
< 1696345912 154109 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1696345921 653774 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: you were here in spirit though. and in the quotes file.
< 1696345967 829502 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi wib_jonas!
< 1696346032 286433 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1696346063 373716 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Welcome to this server, ais523!
< 1696346076 246385 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi Europe2048
< 1696346091 239242 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey and I have both been involved with esolangs for ages (cpressey longer than me)
< 1696346104 562837 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :My Esolangs username is Europe2048, what's yours?
< 1696346124 529174 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523
< 1696346131 470102 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :both somewhat predictable
< 1696346133 173995 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, I joined at September 18.
< 1696346157 105298 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, wow, you created a lot of esolangs.
< 1696346187 757280 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I got better at it over time
< 1696346204 266884 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am mostly interested in Turing tarpits and golfing languages, but the tarpits are much easier to create
< 1696346236 382409 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which of your languages needs to be improved?
< 1696346285 297743 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the newer ones generally don't have a whole lot of decisions to be made when designing them – and when I do find an improvement, often it's a language of its own
< 1696346312 207402 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which languages in particular?
< 1696346315 142092 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yep, you can't really modify them, keep it or condemn it, those are the choices
< 1696346323 406763 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainpocalypse_II is usually easier to implement than https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainpocalypse, and also runs faster, but some languages find the original Brainpocalypse to be a better fit
< 1696346346 609955 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the sorts of languages that can be modified easily are the sort that have lots of commands
< 1696346370 921951 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. I modified https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esimpl earlier this year because the program wasn't conveying all the information that an interpreter needed
< 1696346403 121843 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and to answer your earlier question, yes, esolangs is a bot)
< 1696346514 170838 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for Turing tarpits, the computational class proof is often part of the language in spirit; it is often possible to improve those
< 1696346529 243200 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :typically by allowing the language to be implemented using fewer resources
> 1696346535 293593 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pokecontest14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117396&oldid=88351 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+9) 10Stub
< 1696346583 618213 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's often true for toy languages with lots of choices too, funnily. it's easier to make entirely new languages than trying to save my old interpreted languages (psz, geo and scan)
< 1696346604 416443 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas and ais523, check out my language: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Deadfish++
< 1696346678 181251 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Note: it's high-level because you can store strings in variables.
< 1696346685 580712 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Europe2048: I think that sort of language is designed pretty commonly
< 1696346693 539951 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are a lot of esolangs like it, and it gets hard to choose between them at some point
< 1696346697 914505 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I used to design esolangs, but not as much anymore.  I still, uh, do things with, uh, languages an' stuff, but yeah
< 1696346710 996915 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :not that it's a bad design, just that it's a commonly repeated one
< 1696346732 552165 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I think my extension is the most powerful by now.
< 1696346833 669259 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you get one point from me for pretending that you are extending Deadfish instead of Brainfuck, even if in these sorts of extensions the base language is totally irrelevant because all the power comes from the extensions
< 1696346906 825914 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :power in esolangs can be hard to define, when you get up to higher levels
< 1696346930 836297 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(at the lowest level, you can consider X to be more powerful than Y if X can implement Y more efficiently than Y can implement X – with very low-level esolangs this is normally obvious)
< 1696346968 112519 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: you said recently that Blindfolded Arithmetic is Turing-complete with just two variables. have you ever written a draft proof down for that? or did I misunderstand that and you only said three variables?
< 1696346973 799620 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: no, two
< 1696346976 803866 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's linked at the bottom of the article
< 1696346990 521723 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh right, there's a link
< 1696346996 925357 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :http://nethack4.org/esolangs/blindfolded-arithmetic-2var.txt
< 1696347065 882729 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1696347075 627890 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523, this definition proves that Deadfish++ is indeed more powerful than Deadfish.
< 1696347110 283563 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll have to look at that because two variables needs more complicated tricks than three. This is a good way to get more value out of existing interesting languages, by considering obvious restrictions.
< 1696347112 818099 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Because you can't implement Deadfish++ with Deadfish - there is no input in Deadfish.
< 1696347131 889519 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Europe2048: most languages are more powerful than Deadfish
< 1696347134 62190 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I should perhaps get back to trying to figure out how the restricted versions of Amycus work
< 1696347159 949449 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :today I have been trying to find the minimum Turing-complete value of d in Spiral Rise
< 1696347208 179521 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm think it's likely that 3 is possible – instead of implementing a tag system, you would implement a Couplet 2C variant
< 1696347227 298345 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(which is more powerful than tag in terms of efficiency with which it can implement things, so it'd be a good change anyway)
< 1696347258 458740 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :2 does not seem obviously impossible, but is a very obnoxious language to program in
< 1696347288 945961 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :obviously you can't do 1, because "divmod by 1" does not have any computational power
< 1696347306 625903 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, minimum Turing-complete *integer* value
< 1696347310 827802 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Spiral Rise technically works on non-integers
< 1696347355 771362 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :So you can do Spiral Rise on 3π?
< 1696347411 459338 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the language would be defined – it might be hard to implement though
< 1696347443 751296 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :as for blindfolded arithmetic, https://esolangs.org/wiki/Analytical_Engine_Programming_Cards , which claims to be kind of a reconstruction based on Babbage's plans, somehow uses 50 digit wide numbers, with full multiplication of two 50 digit numbers to 100 digits, and full division of 100 digits by 50 digits to 50 digits divisor and reminder. the
< 1696347444 251348 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :50 digits sounds way too many to me, and I don't understand why anyone would plan for that wide numbers. I understand why we want SIMD on wide registers today, but nothing that would allow that is present in the language that they describe, so it's not about that.
< 1696347447 556274 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it turns out that, once you go beyond the rationals, there isn't a reliable way to tell whether an expression evaluates to 0 or not
< 1696347486 232146 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: the Analytical Engine's predecessor was intended to produce tables of various expressions
< 1696347499 868935 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I still say that there is a decently easy way for quadratic irrationals (expressions with numbers, field operations, and square roots), despite that when I once tried to implement the algorithm I failed
< 1696347504 437880 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :presumably some level of accuracy was required in the output, and more accuracy would be required in the intermediate calculations for the output to be right
< 1696347533 279429 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: ok, but I don't think even that would require 50 digits
< 1696347554 619444 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I get the feeling that Babbage was pretty ambitious
< 1696347566 42929 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and computer programming was pretty undeveloped at the time
< 1696347576 670319 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so maybe Babbage thought it'd require 50 digits, even if he was wrong?
< 1696347621 33933 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I get the feeling that Babbage is irrelevant here, and people are just projecting whatever retrofuturistic thing they want to imagine to Babbage because it sounds better that way, sort of like with Leonardo da Vinci
< 1696347638 20774 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(but you could say that I do the same with Gauss so who am I to say that)
< 1696347652 421564 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :What are you guys talking about?
< 1696347666 645046 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Europe2048: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Analytical_Engine_Programming_Cards
< 1696347698 423714 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nested_radical implies it can be done for square roots specifically
< 1696347726 684125 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unless, there is some sum of square roots that can't be proven to equal or not equal 0
< 1696347793 147070 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes it can be done for square roots, the question is just whether you can consider that algorithm easy, and I am arguing that you can
< 1696347824 781715 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is complexity due to the distinction between the positive square root and the negative square root
< 1696347836 663903 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :How do you output in Babbage?
< 1696347853 113775 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can also do computations with roots of arbitrary algebraic numbers described by a polynomial of which it is a root and some bounds, but nobody claims that the algorithms for that one is easy, and there are very few implementations for that
< 1696347904 458035 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: no, I don't believe there is complexity from the sign of the square root. you only allow real numbers and positive square roots, and that doesn't cause any complexity.
< 1696347933 61645 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the algorithm is so simple that it's taught to high school mathematics competition preppers at least
< 1696347971 333954 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Europe2048: the syntax b_jonas linked appears to have a P command that prints numbers
< 1696348041 401830 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :as for Babbage, are there any esoteric programming languages that claim to be based on *Leibniz's* plans instead of Babbage's? Leibniz lived much earlier so I think you could get away with much more freedom there, yet everyone refers to Babbage instead.
< 1696348073 880315 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: No, I meant to output characters.
< 1696348112 274431 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think the Analytical Engine could output characters
< 1696348129 281401 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :after all, it was intended for calculating tables of numbers
< 1696348133 321297 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…and ASCII hadn't been invented yet
< 1696348170 210138 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or even Hollerith
< 1696348210 201301 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyways, what should I do with AE?
< 1696348283 277453 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you don't necessarily have to do anything with it
< 1696348286 819456 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oddly enough, https://esolangs.org/wiki/Analytical_Engine_Programming_Cards seems to describe that it can output characters, near the bottom of "Attendant Cards", which would be statements executed by the human operators of the machine, so presumably the machine just instructs them to copy the table header from the card to the printout with a pen
< 1696348366 176182 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: Did Leibniz have any ideas for machines other than https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepped_reckoner and the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calculus_ratiocinator ?  The former might be a tad too basic, and the latter a tad too ambitious...
< 1696348458 404090 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Let's talk about something else.
< 1696348463 896783 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: I'm thinking of the latter. it's too ambitious, which is exactly why you can write good fan fiction about it, since it's not a specific planned machine but a goal for what the machine should do
< 1696348537 829661 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Europe2048: what languages do you like?  Not just esolangs, but other languages also
< 1696348543 188701 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the reason people like the Analytical Engine is that it's very well-documented and we know pretty much exactly what Babbage was planning
< 1696348616 991223 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: if that's so then why is https://esolangs.org/wiki/Analytical_Engine_Programming_Cards so different from https://www.ioccc.org/years-spoiler.html#1992_buzzard.1 when both claim to be based on the Analytical Engine?
< 1696348677 432678 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Buzzard's IOCCC entry claims that the Engine would be doing blindfolded arithmetic, only with more than just six variables; while the Programming Cards has usable conditional branches
< 1696348740 381223 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can understand if the IOCCC entry uses built-in C integer arithmetic just to work as an IOCCC entry, but the blindfolded part is central to that entry and is not required for it to work as an IOCCC entry
< 1696348765 913470 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it may be that not all the people have actually read the documentation
< 1696348775 826210 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the entry specifically wants to show how to program blindfolded, because Babbage supposedly designed his machine blindfolded
< 1696348778 379915 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I haven't, just read reports written by other people who read it
< 1696348836 498142 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh right, re: conditionals, I think they might still have been in development when Babbage died?
< 1696349106 409699 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.214.226.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1696349138 360212 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: Python & JavaScript.
< 1696349164 300940 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net TOPIC #esolangs :Welcome to the 20th international hub of esoteric programming languages of the noncriminal sort, and unicorns! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://logs.esolangs.org/
< 1696349583 465652 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: I'm actually reading Ada Lovelace's notes, she definitely mentions conditionals existing
< 1696349607 445711 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PART :#esolangs
< 1696349611 124686 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1696349612 827778 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, that's a bit disconcerting, that means the IOCCC entry was based on a lie
< 1696349652 448730 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or at least a mistake
< 1696349659 505265 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually, that was even in a bit she translated from Babbage's notes, rather than one she came up with herself
< 1696349671 338881 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although Babbage didn't give details, just said conditionals would be required
< 1696349730 865955 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh wow, Ada Lovelace invented single static assignment
< 1696349748 945880 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…and then it took decades for compiler writers to rediscover it :-D
< 1696349802 236319 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Let's talk about something else.
< 1696349959 474713 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Europe2048: What do you want to talk about?
< 1696349998 783883 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :for variables or functions?
< 1696350022 35517 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: for variables
< 1696350024 369832 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe implementing my esolang?
< 1696350036 757545 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :(to cpressey)
< 1696350234 116193 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Europe2048: Deadfish++ looks not very hard to implement (I say this as someone who's been writing language implementations for many years though).
< 1696350259 794697 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :(And also, in contrast to some languages on the wiki that are literally impossible to implement)
< 1696350313 693704 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :But the real hardest part about implementing is the Unicode variables and strings in variables.
< 1696350341 246292 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you're using Python, aren't you? Python 3 supports Unicode very well, and can store strings in variables that are normally used to store numbers
< 1696350357 624754 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I don't know much about OOP...
< 1696350358 337746 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was just about to say that.  It was a pain in 2.x, but much better now
< 1696350389 796068 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :"It" being Unicode
< 1696350413 510897 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you don't need OOP for this, old-fashioned imperative code will work fine
< 1696350415 492475 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, it is very hard to implement the if-else syntax.
< 1696350425 368885 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Because of these problems, my language is high-level.
< 1696350445 338184 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie
< 1696350456 383598 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you don't have much experience writing parsing code, then the "if" syntax might seem difficult, because of the nesting
< 1696350517 797802 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's also some infix expressions and, well, not much indication of what the precedence rules are
< 1696350524 915492 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am upset that efficient parser generators aren't generally easier to use (to the extent that parser combinator libraries have caught on despite having terrible worst-case performance)
< 1696350570 92919 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I will need to be afk for a little bit now though.  Nice meeting you Europe2048
< 1696350588 812919 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Why will you afk?
< 1696350624 306079 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :afk = away from keyboard
< 1696350628 448167 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: dunno, the impression that I get is that people just keep making ambiguous hard to parse languages for some reason. I no longer believe the traditional narrative that old languages like Fortran had an odd grammar and ambiguities because the theory of formal languages wasn't developed yet.
< 1696350650 581470 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Modern languages are the same, so the problem can't be the lack of theory of formal languages.
< 1696350681 407822 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: a good parser generator would be able to detect most reasonable ambiguities in a language
< 1696350696 715253 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, to put it a better way, prove reasonable languages unambiguous, or complain if they aren't
< 1696350702 729713 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :people can already detect the ambiguities, and they insist on keeping the language that way
< 1696350712 156672 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think the problem is the lack of tools there
< 1696350719 85050 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are languages for which ambiguity checks are uncomputable, but they don't resemble anything you'd design intentionally
< 1696350807 26832 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but on the plus side, rustc now manages to parse three different syntaxes, such that not only you can link crates compiled from different syntaxes to the same runtime, but you can actually invoke macros that are written in one syntax inside a source file with another syntax. that means they can fix some of the more annoying ambiguities.
< 1696350818 495551 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think lack of *good* tools is a problem – people don't currently use the tools because they aren't good enough, and thus don't get the ambiguity warnings
< 1696350869 885656 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: the Rust ambiguity that bothers me most is probably that in «x.f(a)», «f» could either be an inherent impl or a trait impl
< 1696350876 555588 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am very much hoping that at some point they'll allow Foo() instead of Foo when Foo is an argumentless constructor for a struct or enum variant, and then in yet another version they *require* the parenthesis after argumentless constructors in patterns (not in expressions), to solve that ambiguity
< 1696350901 898404 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, let's finish talking with implementation. What do you think should be added to my language?
< 1696350902 337780 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the rules for resolving the ambiguity have some really weird consequences
< 1696350928 385472 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: I personally believe that Rust should have enforced case-of-first-letter for identifiers
< 1696350960 170470 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: why is that one a problem? in `x.f(a)`, f can also be a trait impl from multiple different traits, so that's like ordinary clash between imported identifiers. do inherent impls make this any more complicated?
< 1696350961 725277 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that would also solve that ambiguity (in addition to other annoying situations like the turbofish)
< 1696351031 421515 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: basically the problem is that there is no way to disambiguate to use *only* an inherent impl and not a trait impl – the default is to use the inherent, and the only disambiguator picks the trait impl
< 1696351036 279749 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I'm not sure. I don't like case-of-first-letter rule, but I'm not sure if that's because it's inherently a bad idea, or only because it reminds me of Haskell and prolog
< 1696351055 351898 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this means that, if both the inherent and trait impl exist, and then the inherent impl gets deleted, there is no way to stop the trait impl being used, so your code breaks silently in cases where you really want to use the inherent impl only
< 1696351069 461572 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(unless you don't import the trait, but you might need to use it elsewhere in the code)
< 1696351095 294794 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, let's finish talking with implementation. What do you think should be added to my language?
< 1696351125 197482 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :deja vu
< 1696351137 460114 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: if that's the problem, can't you just define a new trait, move the method changing it from inherent to trait, because of the ambiguous syntax existing code that tries to call the old inherent method will still work, but you can disambiguate by naming the trait
< 1696351175 267253 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi int-e!
< 1696351186 487163 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :at one point some ruster tried to explain to me why inherent methods are different from a train method from an anonymous trait, but I forgot what the reasoning was and whether it made sense
< 1696351189 935253 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: assuming you control both files in question, that probably works
< 1696351276 271085 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one ambiguity that isn't a problem in practice, but I find amusing, is the lexer ambiguity on input like «0.0»
< 1696351292 814485 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which could lex as either a single float, or as "the first tuple field of the integer 0"
< 1696351324 34153 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, that comes up in python and languages like that. not quite 0.0, but for eg. 2.sin which you have to write as 2 .sin instead
< 1696351347 387111 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs ::t 0 . 0
< 1696351348 159603 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Num (b -> c), Num (a -> b)) => a -> c
< 1696351368 734096 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: that actually isn't an ambiguity, it's just a consequence of using a lexer that isn't sufficiently context-aware
< 1696351401 977568 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :«(2.)» sin doesn't parse, after all, so the other meaning is invalid and thus it isn't ambiguous
< 1696351434 595304 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am increasingly convinced that using a separate lexer is wrong, and the better solution is to improve the quality of scannerless parsers
< 1696351434 757953 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: it can be an ambiguity if you have numeric literals like 0.5f or 0x4p-3
< 1696351478 113055 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: you mean on "0.f" specifically? I can't see a way to do it with the hex float
< 1696351517 864237 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :0x0.A is a hex float, with A being a hex digit, but 0x0 is a number and you can try to call the .A method on it
> 1696351531 794799 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Alpha14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117397&oldid=117386 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+328) 10
< 1696351551 191875 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or 0x0.Ap0 if you insist on the p being present
< 1696351552 76654 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: I thought hex floats had a mandatory "p" specifically because of that
< 1696351566 574540 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :0x0.Ap0 is a hex float, 0x0 .Ap0 is a method call on 0x0
< 1696351567 639165 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but right, I forgot they could have decimal points earlier
< 1696351584 386926 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :0x0 .Ap0 isn't a method call, it's a property query
< 1696351599 144843 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a method call in python or ruby where this problem comes up
< 1696351601 865840 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…ooh, unless you can call a hex float as a function?
< 1696351607 674731 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think parsers allow that even if lexers don't
< 1696351615 286062 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* even if the compiler as a whole doesn't
< 1696351639 884527 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"SyntaxWarning: 'int' object is not callable; perhaps you missed a comma?" "TypeError: 'int' object is not callable"
< 1696351650 274542 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, ipython3, I was actually trying to call an int to see what the error message would be
< 1696351659 787552 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :in C++ traditionally it's no problem because numeric literals are of built-in types and they don't have members so you can't subscript them. this is no longer true because of user-defined literals, but those come with their ambiguities already
< 1696351667 712258 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the SyntaxWarning suggestst that the parser does understand that calling an int isn't a sensible thing to do
< 1696351690 434112 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…curious that it's only a warning, though
> 1696351694 311248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Alpha14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117398&oldid=117397 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+40) 10
< 1696351732 378446 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, because it might be dead code, and type errors happen at runtime not compile time in Python!
< 1696351746 758546 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Let's stop talking about implementing my language.
< 1696351747 822643 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so erroring at compile time would violate the spec
< 1696351835 151203 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yep, «if False: 0()» gives a SyntaxWarning but runs without issue
> 1696351838 53483 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Alpha14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117399&oldid=117398 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+38) 10
< 1696351889 851060 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I really don't know Python that well, partly because a) I don't like it very much and b) I know Perl very well, meaning that I rarely have an incentive to use Python for anything
< 1696351896 982761 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(other than dealing with existing code that's already written in Python)
< 1696351924 10984 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait, do you *still* know Perl very well, even the changes from the last ten years or so?
< 1696351973 371980 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: not as well as I used to, although I've been catching up to some extent recently
< 1696351991 269448 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :part of the problem is that the static analysis tool I have hooked up to my editor isn't so great at modern Perl
< 1696352057 960028 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…also it mislead me recently, I had a function that actually did need to "return undef;" (which is normally a classic Perl mistake), I managed to silence the warning with "return (undef);" instead
> 1696352126 527276 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Europe204814]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117400&oldid=117237 5* 03Europe2048 5* (+20) 10
< 1696352178 6869 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't understand, why is that misleading?
< 1696352208 348323 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: because linters shout at you when you do it and thus you assume your code is wrong, when actually you got it right first time
< 1696352235 260691 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think all this stems from the usual ambiguity about what null, undef and friends actually mean
< 1696352299 140911 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :when undef represents the lack of valid data, it should become () in list context; but when it represents one valid datum (that itself represents the lack of valid data), it should become (undef) in list context
< 1696352353 723562 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the former is more common, but in this case I waned the latter
< 1696352355 808660 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* wanted
< 1696352366 142927 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :.oO( see NONE vs None1 recently on the esowiki)
< 1696352453 332704 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and you could be explicit about it and write `return scalar();` but then that might confuse readers who don't know all the rules of perl because they'll that that means `return scalar($_);`
< 1696352487 901597 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or «return scalar(())» which is 0 I think?
< 1696352496 434926 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :what?
< 1696352500 682995 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, no
< 1696352502 780028 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm confused
< 1696352536 900451 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is there an easier way to pass a 0-element list to «scalar» than «scalar(@{[]})»?
< 1696352608 380211 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah right, (0,1,2) parses as a comma expression in scalar context, not a list literal, so you really do need @{[…]} to force list context
< 1696352628 214634 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that question doesn't literally make sense, but for what you want, perhaps `scalar(my@k)` or, if you're golfing, `scalar(my@~)`
< 1696352649 91146 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: I most commonly use «scalar» to get at the length of an array
< 1696352674 184238 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can, but that's what the 0+ grenade is for
< 1696352721 680207 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you're golfing, «scalar(@_)» (outside a function) :-)
< 1696352739 195445 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :pick a variable that doesn't need to be declared
< 1696352820 743805 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(or, well, if you're golfing normally you don't turn strict mode on, so that you don't need to declare anything)
< 1696352824 959537 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`perl -weuse strict; print "A=", scalar(@~);
< 1696352827 228022 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :A=0
< 1696352830 964659 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`perl -weuse strict; print "A=", scalar(@k);
< 1696352832 28840 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Global symbol "@k" requires explicit package name (did you forget to declare "my @k"?) at -e line 1. \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors.
< 1696352852 833178 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :punctuation variables are implicitly in main:: regardless your current package, and don't need to be declared
< 1696352905 594139 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the drawback is that most punctuation variables with @ sigil don't get recognized as an interpolation in a string-like literal, only with a $ sigil
< 1696352917 69995 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but in your case with scalar that's not a problem
< 1696352967 10941 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't commonly interpret arrays into strings anyway, unless I badly need to use $" as the separator rather than $,
< 1696352977 883231 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* interpolate
< 1696353062 591874 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually, more recently I've generally been doing the commas "by hand" – probably influence from all the Rust programming I've been doing
< 1696353164 189267 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :perl's syntax rules are arcane and I may have misrepresented them above by the way
< 1696353377 867652 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm here!
< 1696353397 336408 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :BEGIN{} is possibly one of the hardest-to-implement constructs in any practically used language, which is impressive given how innocent it initially looks (and given that there's an END{} which is apparently symmetrical but actually not)
< 1696353461 964732 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1696353635 971511 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Europe2048: really we should have a guide on how to implement esolangs, but I'm not sure whether there's anyone who'd be in an appropriate place to write it
< 1696353646 210293 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is normally easier than implementing non-esoteric programming languages
< 1696353682 427741 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, non-esolangs are much more complex than esolangs.
< 1696353698 775983 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Take, for example, Python and LOLCODE.
< 1696353716 291279 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :LOLCODE is basically a simple practical language with swapped-out keywords
< 1696354660 584468 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyone?
< 1696355668 960227 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1696355683 740126 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
< 1696357102 783580 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi chiselfuse!
< 1696359763 619958 :cpressey88!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696359983 630888 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1696360020 315109 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, I don't think there's much to say about how to implement esolangs in general that doesn't apply to implementing any programming language. if the esolang is hard to implement with traditional techniques, that's because it has some unique twist that is specific to that one esolang and so you the writer of that esolang-implementation book won't predict it.
< 1696360186 606900 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi b_jonas!
< 1696360253 603475 :cpressey88!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net NICK :cpressey
< 1696360271 848637 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a QUIT :Quit: Leaving.
< 1696360539 871920 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I differ from your position on seperate lexing.  A seperate lexer is exactly what makes "0.0" unambiguously a float.  The idea of "oh how can I can disambiguate this from someone trying to access the field "0" of the integer "0" doesn't even come up.  I consider this a good thing.
< 1696360803 58996 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: yeah, but in modern C++, the lexer has a bunch of exceptions, and at least one exception to an exception, in how to lex certain digraphs. they aren't about that particular case, but still
< 1696360851 191499 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and ruby's lexer and parser handily beats that in its odd rules and exceptions and exceptions to exceptions and whitespace-dependence)
< 1696360861 923679 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also think that since there is no field "0" of integer "0", that it makes sense. However, in C the /* for beginning of comments is like two tokens that would be able to go together, so that is not as sense.
< 1696360881 374789 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(though I think for ruby it's only at parsing stage, not the lexing stage)
< 1696361064 546784 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :What are you talking about?
< 1696361074 667820 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, hello!
< 1696361333 626808 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :C comments remind me. many languages that have a nontrivial lexer or parser have their parsing rules defined such that they're easy to parse when you read the input string forward, but may be hard if you read it backwards. C comments are like this: if you have a long file with lots of instances of `/*/` and a `/**/` at the end but no other instances of `*/` then, if you read backwards, you won't know 
< 1696361339 632974 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which parts of the file are comments and which aren't, each `/*/` flips them back and forth, you only find out which ones were comments when you reach the beginning of the file and find out the parity of the `/*/` markers.
< 1696361412 3205 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this gets worse with modern C++ R-strings)
< 1696361429 704700 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so my question is, what languages do you know of that are easier to parse when you read the string backwards?
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< 1696361883 617504 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
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< 1696362273 612873 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1696362289 620673 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi everyone!
< 1696362518 623937 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Quit: gone too far
< 1696362721 134738 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know of any that are easier backward, at least, that I can think of right now. Do you know?
< 1696362978 825937 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have one candidate that may be easier
< 1696362990 695968 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Although, I think there are some where you might have to search backward to find an ending delimiter of something)
< 1696363092 202970 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the lexer of lojban the constructed language (not programming) is easier backwards, on two counts
< 1696363101 465704 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: I don't think that argument changes my mind – the separate lexer is in effect making an arbitrary decision, and even though that decision is correct this time, it could easily be incorrect in other cases
< 1696363116 471331 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :having a combined parser and lexer means that you become aware that the case exists, and can choose how to resolve it
< 1696363154 702140 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I think yacc's grammar is LR(1) backwards but LR(2) forwards
< 1696363185 297262 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1696363240 448795 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(assuming a separate lexer, and that the lexer doesn't have a special case for "identifier followed by colon" – that special case is a hack used to get yacc to be able to parse itself)
< 1696363296 3224 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the lexer rules are defined such that you can find the boundaries of words in spoken lojban, where the speaker doesn't usually pause between every pair of words, from the sequence of phonemes, assuming you can also distinguish stressed vowels and hear the rare mandatory pauses
< 1696363483 627270 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1696363511 923612 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are three common kinds of tokens (words) in lojban: grammar words which are short, substance words, and names. names end with a consonant followed by a mandatory pause, so it's easy to find their end, and you search backwards for some substrings to find the start. in substance words the syllable before the last is stressed but other syllables aren't stressed, so it's easy to find the end of the 
< 1696363517 929725 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :word. each substance word has two adjacent consonants as either its first or second consonant cluster, and grammar words are always single syllables with no adjacent consonants. so once you cut at pauses and after syllables following a stressed syllable, you have chunks that are made of a number of grammar words followed by a substance word, and from the first consonant cluster you can *almost* tell 
< 1696363523 939122 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :where the substance word starts, but that can leave two possibilities for the boundary.
< 1696363595 171605 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is a nice but kind of hard to understand set of lexer rules that always disambiguate between those two possibilities, and it's a regular language too so in theory it's easy either forwards or backwards, but I find that in practice it's easier to understand backwards.
< 1696363759 645621 :Franciman!~Franciman@mx1.fracta.dev JOIN #esolangs Franciman :Franciman
< 1696363775 47838 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you need in theory unbounded lookahead forwards for the lexing, though of course in practice very long words will be hard to understand anyway so they won't occur often regardless of this disambiguation problem
< 1696363801 943861 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: that's a nice example
< 1696363815 732324 :Franciman!~Franciman@mx1.fracta.dev PART :#esolangs
< 1696363902 655543 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: in the HTML render of the channel logs, for a TOPIC message, the render puts a sentence ending period right after the topic, which is confusing because the topic often ends in an URL. I wonder if we should do something about that. 
< 1696363923 837961 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like put a space before the period for example
< 1696363941 446692 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :uh, full stop. that's what people call a sentence-ending period.
< 1696364109 896627 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I guess if you're used to LL and LR parsers then you could even say that your basic RPN calculator language is easier to parse backwards, which is ironic because RPN syntax was designed because it's easy to interpret when read forwards
< 1696364480 614443 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696364728 613161 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1696364735 231031 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PART :#esolangs
< 1696364738 479425 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1696364744 432875 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi!
< 1696364758 978009 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: when you return, will you logread and answer all our questions from when you were away?
< 1696364788 450097 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :What are you talking about>
< 1696364862 374092 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Europe2048: this channel is logged, so fungot will in theory be able to read what people had said earlier
< 1696364912 246734 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK!
< 1696365013 114721 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Well, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind.  When I have a hand-coded parser I almost always use a seperate lexer. (I once had an esolang where the lexer's rules could be changed dynamically, btw.)  But, when I write in Haskell I use parsec, and having it use a seperate lexer is more hassle than it's worth.  But I usually miss it, to
< 1696365013 617799 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :some degree, as it forces me to think about whitespace and such in all the places where I normally wouldn't.
< 1696365278 650246 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have recently (in the last three years) written two different simple parsers for my dayjob, both in python, and they both have a separate lexer. One is just a tab-separated csv parser, where fields can be quoted with double-quotes in which case crs and lfs and tabs in the quoted part aren't special, and doubled double quotes represent a single double quote. so the lexer finds double-quoted fields, 
< 1696365284 649993 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unquoted fields, unquoted tabs, unquoted newlines. then the parser acts turns this to a table (with possibly header lines), or a sequence of such tables separated by blank lines.
< 1696365402 125042 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :One of the 'orrible things about parsing in the stone age of FORTRAN and BASIC was that space was at such a premium that Every Byte was Sacred, so puttingtokenstogetherwithnointerveningwhitespaceorsymbols was a thing.  That is something that we can luckily afford to avoid now.
< 1696365447 768168 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The other parses a custom line-oriented format, one for which I made the other end that writes it too. I designed quoted strings sensibly for this so I don't have to deal with the mess of quoted or unquoted newlines or separators. So the source file is line-oriented, newlines always separate lines, \x1F always ends a string, and you quote a control character as \x10 followed by the control character 
< 1696365453 890991 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :xored with \x20, plus there's a special abbreviation to quote crlfs as \x11 because they're common in the strings that I want to quote.
< 1696365614 567983 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The lexer still has to tokenize the line to various tokens, which it just does left to right with a simple regex. And then the parser takes the first word of the line, which tells what kind of line it is, and handles it accordingly to put most of the data in some custom objects (and ignore the rest), and calls some callback functions so in theory I can parse files without keeping the whole structure in 
< 1696365620 532164 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :memory (this is currently unnecessary, I could easily have the whole structure in memory without problems, but it doesn't cost much to plan ahead).
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< 1696366025 884191 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey96: some early BASIC interpreters stored the parse tree rather than the text, I think
< 1696366031 922033 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and pretty-printed it when you asked for a program listing
< 1696366055 367363 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :presumably the parse tree either a) was smaller or b) needed to be stored anyway
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< 1696366451 256 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net QUIT :Client Quit
< 1696366573 817742 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: really? I believe they stored a *lexed* string, encoding keywords in a consistent easy to parse way, and so printed the listing with canonical form of tokens and whitespace. the tokens are encoded as one or two bytes for compactness. still other interpreters already *input* keywords differently from ordinary identifiers, so you can't type PRINT or COS as its sequence of letters, you have to use 
< 1696366579 825533 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a possibly shifted key combination for them. I think this was also used for algol besides basic.
> 1696366672 281139 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Thatgaypigeon 5*  10New user account
< 1696366858 612677 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696366912 226618 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my Sharp EL-5120 calculator is of the latter kind. all keywords are stored as just one byte, even though they can take up up to six character cells on screen. ABS looks like the letters A B S followed by a space, but if you enter them that way they won't mean the ABS function.
< 1696366950 9796 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :representing keywords as one byte makes sense of course because the hardware is limited: slow CPU and just 20 kilobytes of RAM
< 1696367218 286010 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION is more than passingly familiar with the [de]tokenization of Commodore BASIC 2.0 programs

> 1696367232 202281 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117401&oldid=117371 5* 03Thatgaypigeon 5* (+314) 10
< 1696367281 501454 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: what machine is that basic used on?
> 1696367281 953339 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Thatgaypigeon14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117402 5* 03Thatgaypigeon 5* (+29) 10Created page with "''Nothing to see here... :p''"
< 1696367288 709252 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION wonders if that dynamically-change-the-lexing-rules gimmick would be worth resurrecting into a new esolang

< 1696367358 560650 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: oh, storing it lexed rather than parsed is possible – it's hard to tell as a user
< 1696367364 779616 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: At least the VIC-20 and the Commodore 64, possibly other Commodore computers.
< 1696367392 8393 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: I assume you don't count C where the parser needs to know if an identifier is a type for making the parse tree; or prolog where you can declare any ordinary identifier to be parsed as an infix operator from now 
< 1696367467 162461 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I thought the most vexing parse was C++-specific; is there a C version of it?
< 1696367503 819821 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I may be confused - surely the *lexer* doesn't need to know the type of anything in C?
< 1696367584 959334 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: I think it's sort-of backwards, the parser needs to know what's been declared as a type which means that the lexer has to work it out so that it can tell the parser
< 1696367598 457999 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Being able to define infix operators is of course a handy thing, but that too is mostly in the parser; to the lexer the identifier is still an identifier
< 1696367626 879490 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :C-INTERCAL has lexing rules for pretty much any possible infix operator, including ones that don't exist, in case it ends up getting defined at runtime
< 1696367646 72715 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have no idea if this is the usual way to handle runtime-defined syntax, but it seemed esoteric enough
< 1696367693 139923 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: the lexer doesn't need to know to separate words, but there has to be a layer above the lexer but below the LR-parser or similar that changes identifier tokens to one of two different tokens, as in type name or normal identifier (more than two for C++).
< 1696367746 305504 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and prolog is similar, you can tokenize the input without such tricks, but then between the tokenizer and the parser you have to tell which identifiers are infix operators (and their precedence and fixity)
< 1696367792 311918 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :You can regard this logic as "between the lexer and the parser" if you like; I see it as part of the parser; at any rate there is nothing requiring you to see it as part of the lexer
< 1696367817 50064 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in OCaml, the precedence and fixity of a user-defined operator is based on its first character
< 1696367839 359195 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is a clever fix to this sort of problem
< 1696367866 726586 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think FORTH has a different trick: it has identifiers that are executed right after they're lexed, so you can define a token so that the part of the source code after that has a custom lexical syntax instead of using the normal lexer, and this is how the " comment marker is implemented, it just reads characters and ignores them until it finds a terminating " 
< 1696367876 189826 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nut I don't use FORTH much so I may be wrong here
< 1696367879 152725 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and also makes programs easier to read, you can see an operator you don't recognise whose name starts with «>» and still be able to mentally parse it because you know how the «>» operator parses)
< 1696367962 411259 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :For dynamically changing the lexing rules in an esolang, I was thinking that (unlike in Bear Food, my old esolang) this facility should be used in some non-gratuitous way.  i.e. you have to change the lexing rules, in order to... perform conditionals or something.
< 1696367970 710335 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I don't know if it could just omit the full stop. I mean, it's maybe a little inconsistent with the other lines, but the colon kind of serves the purpose of delimiting the fixed part, and it's not that unreasonable to expect everything after the colon is just literal.
< 1696367974 798356 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Alternatively, I could format it the same way quit messages are formatted. "X has quit (foo)." "X has set the topic (bar)."
< 1696368029 998191 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also J has the colon conjunction which, if its right argument is the number 0 (for example like 0 :0), will read lines from the same input as the source code so they aren't parsed like normal source code lines, and while usually you use this in a static way like bash here documents, you can invoke it at runtime conditionally or in a loop if you want
< 1696368053 92302 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: did you see Advance The Wheel!
< 1696368058 18488 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: I'm fine with omitting the full stop
< 1696368059 751561 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's not quite the same, but you reminded me of it
< 1696368080 312151 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(it's a turning tarpit, but conditionals affect the wheel rather than the instruction pointer, meaning that the same commands run but are interpreted differently)
< 1696368086 977232 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: also I think perl6 was planned to have a crazy dynamic lexer and parser where you can define syntax at runtime in ways that make me (and probably ais) shudder
< 1696368095 57067 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I don't know how much of that ever got implemented
< 1696368117 222435 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll be back tomorrow, bye!
< 1696368120 89717 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PART :#esolangs
< 1696368120 862691 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am not sure how I'm going to remember to make that happen the next time I do some changes. I was also supposed to update the HTTP server library to see if it would let me re-enable stalker mode without it hanging up.
< 1696368132 399710 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Perl 6 regex is basically a full-on context-free language parser, but I think it's implemented by backtracking
< 1696368152 798777 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it wouldn't surprise me if the interpreter was supposed to parse itself with regex that could be changed at runtime
< 1696368226 658620 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll have to look at Advance The Wheel but for now I've got to call it a night
< 1696368240 822438 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: parenthesis around the topic don't help, it joins the URL just as much as the period does
< 1696368954 386217 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1696368965 937532 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: oh, and TeX has runtime definable lexer, but only in as much as it has a table of the 256 bytes and you can assign each one to one of, I think, 17 possible built-in categories
< 1696368985 745235 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can't define new lexing rules or anything, just say which character is which kind
< 1696369069 148959 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the categories are actually changed during runtime in a few cases
< 1696369175 686309 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I presume you're not interested in cases where the lexer just has a small fixed number of modes with similar but slightly different lexing modes, and you can switch between those modes dynamically, like bash in which (shopt -s extglob) changes how round parenthesis are lexed in some cases, but only starting from the next line
< 1696369258 961371 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and this is dynamic because you can run shopt programmatically so the lexer can't tell from just lexing when it will be called)
< 1696369534 416434 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: How quit messages are formatted varies by client. In the protocol, they're formatted as ":X!user@host QUIT :foo"
< 1696369589 941505 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, but I meant on the logs website.
< 1696369709 946204 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Noisytoot: what fizzie says, I specifically asked about the html renders on his log wibsite
< 1696370193 807051 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-232.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 4.0.4
< 1696370678 390807 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-232.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN #esolangs Melvar :melvar
< 1696371140 765175 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :In PostScript you can't change the lexer but you can read from currentfile (which is the file containing the program), so that can make syntax highlighting difficult sometimes.
< 1696371199 893762 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is there regular expression library that you can use units other than bytes and Unicode?
< 1696371247 276526 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh right, TeX can also read lines from its source file, can't it?
< 1696371310 246836 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think so (other than by opening it as a separate file), although you can change the catcodes in TeX
< 1696371406 329281 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: I think the C++ standard's regex library can use user-defined character types. there are serious restrictions on what such a type can be like, but I believe it can at least be bigger than what holds a unicode character.
< 1696371451 646946 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :How much bigger?
< 1696371539 569939 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: any fixed size, it's a C++ template. I think it has to be trivially copiable and stuff like that so it can't own memory on heap, but I'm not sure about the details, you'll have to ask #C++ to be sure
< 1696371614 820339 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/regex/regex_traits describes the details, but I never looked at what that does because I don't think I'll ever define custom character types
< 1696371661 381500 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK
< 1696371854 717792 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also I think perl regexen supports UTF8-E or something similar, I don't know if you'd count that as unicode
< 1696372008 178151 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I wonder if that's true
< 1696372050 169097 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, even if it is true, it means it is limited to the size and requires converting to UTF-8 if it is not already, anyways
< 1696372062 774359 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-232.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :regex-applicative (a Haskell library) has the symbol type as a type parameter. You can use an arbitrary predicate to build a one-symbol matcher so there’s no real constraint on what can be used for the symbol type.
< 1696372083 612971 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1696372242 405637 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Due to the document about a finite automaton before, I had considered you could also use an arbitrary monoid, although actually implementing such a thing may be difficult in the general case other than a free monoid.
< 1696372320 287619 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: UTF-8 and UTF8-E are self-synchronizing so the regex implementation can mostly just use a byte string matcher, except when unicode character properties or unicode case sensitivity is used. 
< 1696372434 956709 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, I know UTF-8 has that property that you can easily use that, although you might want to define your own properties and macros, and like I said you might not want UTF-8 anyways since the data might be in a different format
< 1696372571 600328 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, but I can't really imagine how supporting arbitrary formats could work, so byte-based and utf16-based is what you have, plus C++'s crazy library
< 1696372654 428170 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, and ucs32-based, I think python can match ucs32 though probably only limited to the 21 bits of modern unicode
< 1696372751 432732 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Most likely the units would be some integer, e.g. 8-bits, 16-bits, 32-bits, or 64-bits; you probably won't need more than that, although external procedures for matching might sometimes be needed (which is possible with PCRE, anyways), and some kind of syntax to be able to work such a thing (perhaps including macros, e.g. if it is UTF-8) might be of use
< 1696372886 128615 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right. existing libraries can already do 8-bit and 16-bit, with basically character sets except that the few dozen characters special for regex syntax will be interpreted as ascii. the C++ regex library can do 32-bit or 64-bit.
< 1696372920 6237 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and any byte-based matcher can do 31 bits or 63 bits if you encode the string as UTF8-G or UTF8-E respectively
< 1696373009 812644 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you want something fancier then you'll probably have to study the research paper and implementation of TRE https://laurikari.net/tre/ and then write your own regex matcher
< 1696373094 707948 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, then
< 1696373172 412529 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although there might be something for the legacy japanese encodings, you'll have to ask the ruby folks if they have a regex matcher for that
< 1696374226 194509 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:20cb:c65b:a88:274a QUIT :Quit: Leaving...
< 1696375239 274471 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1696375453 517605 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.214.226.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl QUIT :
< 1696375536 628285 :user3456!user3456@user/user3456 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1696380436 622961 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1696380509 37324 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1696381153 311322 :user3456!~user3456@user/user3456 JOIN #esolangs user3456 :user3456
< 1696383731 986349 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1696390103 317807 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1696390191 145879 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1696390958 462557 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had written some code for working with TRON-16 character codes in X window system, although it will not work without suitable fonts. (It also includes a function conversion TRON-8 to TRON-16.) (Actually, it uses the XChar2b structure and works like the other 16-bit text functions in Xlib except that if byte1 is 0xFE then it will automatically switch the font rather than treating it as a visible character code.)
< 1696391003 502219 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :The other thing which should then be added, other than output, is the support for input too, but that is not implemented yet.
< 1696392297 608142 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1696392313 741387 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
< 1696393485 126141 :SGautam!uid286066@id-286066.ilkley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs SGautam :Siddharth Gautam
< 1696395521 127747 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? password
< 1696395524 212002 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The password of the month is suboptimal
> 1696395834 824917 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117403&oldid=117395 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+596) 10upgwaide!
> 1696395865 546533 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117404&oldid=117403 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (-37) 10/* Text to Bawkbawk */ when did that get here????
< 1696396210 541123 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`learn The password of the month is prematurely spooky
< 1696396214 244918 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Relearned 'password': The password of the month is prematurely spooky
> 1696396465 846482 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117405&oldid=117404 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+1160) 10/* Examples */ a new one!
> 1696396572 378878 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117406&oldid=117405 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+88) 10/* 99 bottles of beer */ ummm
> 1696396812 203309 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117407&oldid=117406 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (-91) 10/* 99 bottles of beer */ nothing
> 1696397160 432604 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Piet++14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117408&oldid=103945 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+7) 10formatting
> 1696397220 987070 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Piet++14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117409&oldid=117408 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (-2) 10I did it wrong, sorry
> 1696397829 294219 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BIRL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117410&oldid=72663 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+9) 10Stub
> 1696397916 554407 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BIRL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117411&oldid=117410 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+49) 10Categories
> 1696398121 92959 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117412&oldid=117407 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+132) 10/* Chickens */ ooh yes, upgwaide
> 1696398230 275913 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:Strike14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117413 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+24) 10making life easier
> 1696398271 100982 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117414&oldid=117412 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (-6) 10/* Chickens */ gotta look cool
> 1696398515 93033 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Big Man Computer14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117415&oldid=115691 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+10) 10/* adding stub */
< 1696398986 105996 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:4990:79eb:4e75:496f JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
> 1696399631 231059 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:Link14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117416 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+239) 10shortcut
> 1696399666 862593 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:Link14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117417&oldid=117416 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (-9) 10
> 1696399684 465984 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:Link14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117418&oldid=117417 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+7) 10
> 1696399721 452418 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:Link14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117419&oldid=117418 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (-8) 10
> 1696399797 441451 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117420&oldid=117414 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+6) 10/* Commands */ shortcut
< 1696401923 614589 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1696401941 377005 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi everyone!
< 1696403652 636630 :SGautam!uid286066@id-286066.ilkley.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1696405308 766327 :laerling!~laerling@user/laerling PRIVMSG #esolangs :Morning
< 1696405997 527426 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I traditionally obfuscate my email address by duplicating its characters. This used to work because everyone knew that hhuu isn't a real top-level domain, since there were only like twenty top-level domain names that aren't two letters long and people knew the list. But now there are a thousand top level domain names, so someone might think that hhuu is a real top-level domain name.
< 1696406024 574928 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh
< 1696406064 362416 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although the doubled @ sign might still help. I'll have to test if that's valid syntax, and whether the doubled dot in the hostname is accepted in place of a single dot
< 1696406077 241145 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I think the double dot is valid; the double @ sign hopefully isn't)
< 1696406150 929981 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :drat, stupid high-level email client, it complains "please enter at least one recipient" 
< 1696406347 208986 :laerling!~laerling@user/laerling PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Any particular reason against the classic (at)/[.] obfuscation? Or just preference?
< 1696406369 483092 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :lack of obscurity
< 1696406435 554405 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what int-e says, every email harvester already replaces that
< 1696406556 529653 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is, of course, mostly theoretical because I treat my email address as public enough that every spammer already has it on their list
< 1696406578 942001 :laerling!~laerling@user/laerling PRIVMSG #esolangs :Do you make use of those + extensions?
< 1696406606 649044 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :occasionally
< 1696406806 562071 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1696407325 673723 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1696407838 138731 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:4990:79eb:4e75:496f QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1696409003 614530 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696409601 414960 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:5dbb:aba8:3f11:2b57 JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
> 1696410623 757579 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:Style14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117421 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+459) 10Created page with "<includeonly><span style="{{#if: {{{color|}}} | color:{{{color}}} !important;}}{{#if: {{{size|}}} | font-size:{{{size}}}px !important;}}{{#if: {{{font|}}} | font-family:{{{font}}} !important;}}">{{{text}}}</span></includeonly><noinclude>Shortcut for text styling.
< 1696411523 614959 :cpressey30!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696411708 625728 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1696412866 612855 :cpressey30!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net NICK :cpressey
> 1696413119 485112 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Binary lambda calculus14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117422&oldid=108937 5* 03Pro465 5* (+44) 10add category
> 1696413290 105897 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category talk:Programs14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117423&oldid=115267 5* 03Pro465 5* (+86) 10/* I don't know what this is for */ agree with op
< 1696413317 452353 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
> 1696413548 575302 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category talk:Themed14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117424 5* 03Pro465 5* (+146) 10Created page with "== suggestion to remove this == in favor of [[Category:Thematic]] --~~~~"
> 1696413569 459351 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category talk:Themed14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117425&oldid=117424 5* 03Pro465 5* (+1) 10/* suggestion to remove this */
< 1696414135 613184 :cpressey89!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696414158 620720 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1696414354 651472 :cpressey89!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net NICK :cpressey
< 1696415113 782560 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :<b_jonas> I presume you're not interested in cases where the lexer just has a small fixed number of modes with similar but slightly different lexing modes <------ You presume right. The more powerful the dynamic-lexer-reprogramming is, the better.
< 1696415180 819018 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :My recollection of Bear Food is that you could register a new arbitrary regexp for any of the built-in token classes.  Which would be a good start at least.
< 1696415188 977829 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :It was otherwise a Forth-like language.
< 1696415245 335442 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie
> 1696415509 302119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:Style14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117426&oldid=117421 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+585) 10Expanding on this
> 1696415884 966847 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:Style14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117427&oldid=117426 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+68) 10Expanding on this
< 1696417139 613332 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1696417145 498787 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi everybody!
< 1696417189 798570 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Heya ☺
< 1696417962 123165 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm User:Europe2048, and you?
> 1696418443 538012 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:Style14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117428&oldid=117427 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (-22) 10/* Boxes */
> 1696418466 616489 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:Style14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117429&oldid=117428 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+1) 10/* Boxes */
< 1696419376 741331 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1696419556 157921 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1696420102 266756 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:5dbb:aba8:3f11:2b57 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1696420966 566853 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:ed41:ca3b:872:a08a JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
< 1696421015 270723 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1696422185 361183 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1696423320 615104 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1696423335 436513 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi everyone!
> 1696423402 172198 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tetrastack14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117430&oldid=116046 5* 03GUAqwq 5* (+29) 10
> 1696423507 128702 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tetrastack14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117431&oldid=117430 5* 03GUAqwq 5* (-1) 10
> 1696423562 485632 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Transet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117432&oldid=117366 5* 03GUAqwq 5* (+58) 10
> 1696423578 379712 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Transet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117433&oldid=117432 5* 03GUAqwq 5* (-1) 10
< 1696423819 443795 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :No human's online right now.
> 1696424133 43518 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117434&oldid=117304 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+29) 10
> 1696424146 163536 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117435&oldid=117434 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+0) 10
> 1696424220 528461 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117436&oldid=117435 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (-16) 10
> 1696424323 439503 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117437&oldid=117436 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+50) 10this gotta work
> 1696424393 872785 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117438&oldid=117437 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (-63) 10 no diebeto, loll back do gidgen
< 1696424733 992994 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm does "the" tar file format have any silly file size restrictions?
< 1696424774 988093 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I think that depends on which of the handful of tar format dialects you're talking about
< 1696424791 146596 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :remember, tar is an ancient format
< 1696424793 450738 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi everyone!
< 1696424797 990454 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :How are you?
< 1696424804 604803 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(4GB would be the relevant file size, but yeah I put "the" into quotes because I know that there are several versions)
< 1696424804 772254 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :What are you talking about?
< 1696424854 583544 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-: in particular,  https://www.gnu.org/software/tar/manual/html_node/Formats.html#Formats note that it says the v7 format is limited to file sizes less than 8 GB
< 1696424858 472181 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sometimes we just exchange obscure details of software and hardware.
< 1696424921 934525 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-: note that there's also a table for the limitations, including on file sizes and file name lengths
< 1696424967 493290 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: Ah, thanks for that link. (I probably should've found it myself. Probably would have, eventually...)
< 1696424968 583855 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the practical answer is that there's no silly limitation unless you're using ancient software
< 1696425048 12477 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :also it seems that freebsd tar can read all the tar formats including the gnu ones
< 1696425078 928103 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and openbsd has the same tar as freebsd and also can
< 1696425164 170442 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think .tar is an esolang.
< 1696425234 102390 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't see any specific claim for 7zip, so test if you want to make sure, but I expect it can also expect the newer tar formats, since even the newer tar formats are pretty old now
> 1696425243 543240 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117439&oldid=117420 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+49) 10/* Commands */ new update!!111!!!
< 1696425260 305744 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I mean it can probably extract large files or long filenames from tar; it might not be able to extract xattrs.)
< 1696425322 657837 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I should look into these BSD tars, it seems like they might be better than gnu tar, I should check if there's a linux port
< 1696425385 319784 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nah, it's probably irrelevant and not worth my time
> 1696425578 523884 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117440&oldid=117439 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+291) 10/* Commands */ an even better upgrade!!!!!!
> 1696425764 626329 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117441&oldid=117440 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+83) 10/* Memory */
< 1696425933 263325 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, wrong format... the relevant thing is actually a zip file. Which does have a 32 bit limit, though there's a 64 bit variant... but that is embarrassingly recent (2017).
< 1696425949 493016 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1696425994 559159 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I ran into `gog` packaging a 15GB file in four parts, then concatenating them, causing me to run out of disk space... this seems to be why. SIGH.)
> 1696426001 564900 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117442&oldid=117441 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+18) 10/* 99 bottles of beer */ fixing
< 1696426010 719280 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: ah, zip.
< 1696426048 624740 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1696426059 141663 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi everyone!
< 1696426073 21777 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: `tar` is involved too... they have a shell script that is followed by a `tar.gz` file containing the installer executable, and then finally the actual game package as a zip file.
< 1696426119 123690 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi Europe2048.  I noticed something about Deadfish++
< 1696426131 19242 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :What is it?
< 1696426154 422642 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So the `zip` file support comes from the installer and that means 6 years may not be enough time for it to support the zip64 format yet.
< 1696426173 722641 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION sad

< 1696426199 302463 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Unlike Deadfish, memory pointers can be above 255 or below 0."  -- this is a bit difficult to understand, because (a) Deadfish doesn't have "memory pointers" as such, and (b) numbers in Deadfish can be above 255.
< 1696426240 33761 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I meant here that memory pointers can also be 256 or below 0.
< 1696426246 419284 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Let me fix this.
< 1696426256 206679 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://7-zip.org/history.txt says that 7zip started to support zip64 in year 2004
> 1696426312 101737 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfish++14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117443&oldid=117358 5* 03Europe2048 5* (-5) 10Made "Unlike Deadfish..." more understandable.
< 1696426331 973055 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :See? I fixed it!
< 1696426343 786641 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :with typical software that wouldn't count as embarrassingly recent, but archivers like this, and zip especially, are supposed to be much more stable in formats than normal software
< 1696426372 369943 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :2004 is not bad though, I think I still only had a 2 gigabyte sized hard disk back then
< 1696426569 473818 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :AH.
< 1696426682 83540 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: Sorry, that was another failure to comprehend information on my part. Wikipedia says "Retrieved" and then a date in 2017 for the ZIP specification, and it was probably a later version anyway.
< 1696426686 823473 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Aww.  The fact that you can't, for a completely arbitrary reason, make the number 256 in Deadfish, is one of its biggest charms, IMO.  To make a Deadfish derivative, and leave that out, is... awww.
< 1696426689 424934 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :admittedly I was also in a university that had servers serving many students at once and those had much bigger hard disks, but even so you'd rarely meet individual files larger than 2G
< 1696426775 743569 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :In other news, I'm implementing, uh, a language, in, uhhhh... another language
< 1696426776 239470 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:ed41:ca3b:872:a08a QUIT :Quit: Leaving...
< 1696426805 680147 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: hehe, that's like trying to send data unescaped on IRC, where exactly three of the 256 bytes is banned
< 1696426863 584963 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :of course we also have a *systematic* way to make some numbers impossible to use, even as intermediate results in arithmetic
< 1696426879 757841 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(it's https://esolangs.org/wiki/Forte )
< 1696426882 811689 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: So it's actually from 2001. That's far less embarrassing.
< 1696426884 891786 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :phew
< 1696426929 973420 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But of course that still doesn't guarantee that third party libraries support it.
< 1696426932 811802 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Aww.  The fact that you can't, for a completely arbitrary reason, make the number 256 in Deadfish, is one of its biggest charms, IMO.  To make a Deadfish derivative, and leave that out, is... awww." Thanks, I guess.
< 1696426935 611697 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh well.
< 1696426956 305486 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: yeah, DVD images which are larger than 4 gigabyte existed at that time
< 1696427007 920427 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :According to https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/historical-cost-of-computer-memory-and-storage when "normalized" by price a 2 gigabyte hard disk in 2004 "corresponds" to a 85-gigabyte hard disk in 2022, meaning it would have been pretty small at the time.
< 1696427060 142588 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :did they even make 89 GB HDDs in 2022 though ;)
< 1696427067 476679 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: is that for new drives? the 2 gigabyte hard disk was rather old by that time, and I may have also been mistaken above and had got a larger drive by 2004
< 1696427093 542022 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(yeah I'm ignoring the "normalized")
< 1696427105 45498 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know the sources of that data, and since it covers a timespan from 1957 to 2022 it's probably not all that "uniform".
< 1696427132 643896 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I had the 2 gigabyte disk starting from around 1995 when I first had my own PC separate from my father's PC, so by 2004 I probably got a bigger one
< 1696427148 902622 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Gotta admire the company that paid $200T for a TB in 1956
< 1696427156 104024 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Just to put that dot on the graph.
< 1696427164 304355 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Again ignoring the "normalized" of course)
< 1696427165 174108 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Looks like new drives sold in 2004 were typically in the 80, 120, 160, maybe 250 gigabyte range.
< 1696427176 935562 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, that's believable
< 1696427205 494798 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: that's for RAM though, not disk
< 1696427206 622580 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Those sizes are familiar
< 1696427243 43692 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: Sure. That's a lot of wires and ring magnets.
< 1696427251 763594 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I think that graph is for the largest RAMs and disks that you can reasonably buy for a server, not for a cheaper stuff that a uni student has at home from their parents' money
< 1696427275 136105 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hehe, yes
< 1696427275 312786 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I /think/ that was the technology? Or was it still relays and tubes...)
< 1696427356 128868 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: it was magnetic core memory, yes
< 1696427382 105214 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that but also spinning magnetic disks for memory, and even delay lines
< 1696427447 917407 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait a moment, on that graph, what's the difference between "flash" and "solid state"?
< 1696427465 93294 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've read about delay lines (maybe because of this channel?)... what a weird technology. Ingenius of course. 
< 1696427504 114509 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: Good question... I'd guess (but not with great confidence) that SSD implies wear levelling.
< 1696427519 911620 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: they make much more sense for analog data, specifically one line of color information for television in formats that send color in alternating lines
< 1696427525 830729 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: It's apparently from https://jcmit.net/flashprice.htm
< 1696427562 417415 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :So "flash" is USB thumb drives and memory cards, while "solid state" is internal SATA or PCIe storage devices.
< 1696427645 330035 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So no real functional distinction then. Fair enough.
< 1696427721 132542 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But then it's weird that they stop tracking `flash` in the graph once internal SSDs take off...
< 1696427891 694297 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Regarding your other question, I can still find an Amazon listing for a 80GB mechanical (IDE) hard drive as new: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Western-Digital-Scorpio-Cache-Internal/dp/B000RHTIZO/ref=sr_1_9
< 1696427894 596296 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Massive capacity - WD Scorpio Blue 2.5-inch drives offer the most available capacity for space-hungry operating systems like Windows Vista, plus plenty of room left over for photos, music, and video"
< 1696427897 720004 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Not so sure about that.
< 1696428024 758461 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I like how all the reviews are from around 2010
< 1696428027 333803 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not convinced that this isn't decades old stock
< 1696428038 840692 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, a 2017 review mentions "sticker dates manufacture as Oct 2008", so...
< 1696428054 767395 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh! :)
< 1696428105 608579 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1696428167 996828 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It seems nontrivial to find what's the smallest hard drive that's still actually being manufactured at the time.
< 1696428202 763264 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's not exactly a marketable feature.
< 1696428282 425988 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: I'm not completely sure that's not even infinite. Most of the hard disk manufacturers started to make solid state drives instead because it's more profitable, so reputedly all three big hard disk brands are made in one factory in china these days, and that sounds like a fragile situation.
< 1696428295 682184 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would imagine that it won't be a consumer product, but something for industrial use or other high robustness high durability purposes.
< 1696428316 412735 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But yeah SSDs will be in that niche too.
< 1696428353 482696 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: no, we have the 4 megabyte SD cards for that, so if you want something smaller than an 80 gigabyte hard disk, you can just use a 16 gigabyte SD card plus a reader
< 1696428382 648101 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think anyone uses hard disk for that kind of *low capacity* industrial stuff anymore
< 1696428396 615213 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :high capacity sure, but low capacity works better with solid state
< 1696428399 123707 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Let's pretend I said SSD/Flash
< 1696428434 61952 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, in that case I can confirm that there are low capacity solid state memory cards in use for industry at my dayjob
< 1696428513 406202 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :they're a ripoff like a lot of the expensive stuff we sell, you're not paying for it being better than normal SD cards, you're paying for a brand name and for saying that you're following "the industry standard" so that you can't easily be held responsible when something fails
< 1696428574 643153 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( More than 50x more durable than the floppy disks that they replace! )
< 1696428610 14315 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: is that measured in how many times you access them, or in how long you store them idle?
< 1696428621 592761 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The former is what I had in mind.
< 1696428642 573582 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And I made up the number of course. It's not like I could be bothered to find any data on this.
< 1696428746 271917 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The fact in the back of my mind that inspired it was that there were floppies in industrial devices long after floppies were considered dead. And I believe you still have SD readers with an MFM interface?)
< 1696429032 187534 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1696429139 99981 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :What are you talking about?
< 1696429763 866302 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie
< 1696429955 176449 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1696430228 272111 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
> 1696430302 632243 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category talk:Programs14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117444&oldid=117423 5* 03None1 5* (+117) 10
< 1696430332 138240 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.214.226.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1696430496 777038 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I checked a computer distributor's homepage for low capacity, they definitely sell 512 GB spinning hard disks, and likely 256 GB spinning hard disks, definitely 8 GB SD cards, and 700 MB writable CDs. also the largest microSD cards that they sell is 512 GB, I assumed it would have grown past that by now, but no, it's almost like there's a
< 1696430497 264276 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :physical limitation in how much data they can cram into a card the size of a fingernail.
< 1696430693 723382 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Europe2048: I think you'll find that that's not a conversation starter on IRC, especially on a channel that has public logs (see the topic).
< 1696430726 979239 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh.
< 1696430982 730869 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: Amazon has 1TB offers. And a hit for 2TB that looks fake.
< 1696431214 914255 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Physical limitations, are those still a thing?  I thought Moore's Law made all that a non-issue, what with the Singularity being near and all
< 1696431250 533253 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? mapole
< 1696431253 376094 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6’ by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
< 1696431301 65200 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: (that seemed whack-worthy)
< 1696431399 855610 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :not a distributor but an OEM but https://www.kingston.com/en/memory-cards lists 512 GB as the largest. 1 TB sounds believable though.
< 1696431560 790373 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.kingston.com/en/memory-cards does list 1 TB microSD card though
< 1696431561 140429 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Same for Transcend at https://www.transcend-info.com/product/memory-card/ -- but their largest regular SD card is 1 TB as well (and 512 GB for µSD), so maybe they don't cater for the extreme-capacity niche.
< 1696431574 822960 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good point about checking manufacturer sites. https://www.westerndigital.com/de-de/products/memory-cards/sandisk-ultra-uhs-i-microsd#SDSQUA4-032G-GN6MA
< 1696431599 3436 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(down to 32GB though of course as with HDDs that may be old stock)
< 1696431617 76922 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :why de-de, but whatever
< 1696431634 290071 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :um, wrong link
< 1696431655 350437 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I know why of course, I just hate that nobody seems to respect the Accept-Languages header)
< 1696431658 373114 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.westerndigital.com/products/memory-cards/microsd (SanDisk) lists 1 TB microSD card
< 1696431750 422675 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have a 16 MB CF card rolling around at the bottom of a chest of drawers that seems hard to find a reasonable use for.
< 1696431752 177414 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: that's probably for the best. sure, homepages can already learn everything using client-side scripts, but let them work for it rather than broadcast my preferred languages, operating system, monitor resolution, and all other info in the header of every HTTP query. accept-languages sounds nice in theory but is probably best not used by
< 1696431752 681948 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :clients.
< 1696431811 253455 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but what they do instead is worse, guessing a language based on IP
< 1696431873 122864 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: yes, but they have to pick a language *somehow*, so I don't care too much if it's by IP. the problem is when they don't let me override the language easily from a menu entry, which I think is orthogonal to how they guess.
< 1696431917 254499 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: I think that fits all of Monkey Island 2! Barely.
< 1696431931 928901 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I can't just use a uniform Accept-Languages because I want to see certain homepages in hungarian and others in english, in both case when the homepage exists in both english and hungarian (in some state at least)
< 1696432002 49164 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it might just DOS 6.22 and Windows for Workgroups 3.11 install media, since that was 3 + 8 floppies.
< 1696432033 282482 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hehe, "Games that spaned the most Disks" https://www.lemonamiga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=186
< 1696432060 395096 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Hmm, is it Windows for Workgroups 3.11 or Windows 3.11 for Workgroups?)
< 1696432083 741620 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Memory suggests the latter.
< 1696432084 298815 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: unlikely. you wouldn't use an SD card as DOS 6.22 or Windows 3.11 installer media, since old computers where you installed those didn't have drivers for SD card readers \so you couldn't install from them
< 1696432107 65702 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :even CD-ROM would be stretching it
< 1696432115 103282 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so does $SEARCHENGINE
< 1696432115 337281 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I like those plurals where there's a two-word unit and the suffix goes in the first word, like 'postmasters general'.
< 1696432176 207066 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think Baldur's Gate came on 6 CD-ROMs, that was quite something too.
< 1696432192 973524 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: I write those a lot when talking about Factorio, especially about putting 4 red modules 3 each into assemblers 3\
< 1696432288 6388 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Some days I think I would like to pare down a NetBSD distribution until it fits in 16MB.  Just because.
< 1696432323 100374 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Other days I think I have better things to do.
< 1696432387 519132 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: do you also want to make it run on a system with just 2 MB of RAM? I had heard a legend of Linux 1 running on such a system, but I'm not sure if I believe it.
< 1696432468 998274 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :back when I started to use linux, the kernel version number started with 2.2., it strictly required at least 4 MB RAM, and rescue systems came on 2 or 3 floppies.
< 1696432530 454292 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the NetBSD kernel still "fits on a floppy", if that floppy is the 2.88M kind, which I've never seen in real life but which can be used as the El Torito boot image on an ISO 9660 image.
< 1696432550 169429 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :But 2.88M > 2M so I would be OK if 4M was the minimum RAM
< 1696432637 431315 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: the trick with two floppy rescue images was that one floppy has the kernel and one the file system, so the file system ones stays in the floppy drive and so you don't have to load it in RAM. but I think 2 MB RAM was impossible by then even if you have a many megabyte large hard disk.
< 1696432706 33629 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :my DOS rescue floppy loads the whole rescue file system to a RAM disk, and since it has to fit the decompressed version twice into the RAM disk when loading, 2 MB of RAM would certainly not be enough for it
< 1696432768 534383 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I never tried to make a Linux rescue system, I just used stock images for that
< 1696433060 691746 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :these days even a linux kernel without modules doesn't fit in 2 MB
< 1696433493 583542 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :The default ("GENERIC") NetBSD kernel (for i386, I should note) is about 20MB.  You can compile a stripped-down version ("GENERIC_TINY") with minimal hardware support.  I did this recently, went and looked how big it is: 2.6M
< 1696433522 144866 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :More precisely, 2684240 bytes according to "ls -l"
< 1696433778 960165 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :is that compressed?
< 1696433826 325640 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :No, not compressed.
< 1696433880 942768 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :gzip brings it down to 1.2M
< 1696433908 642774 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Not sure what kind of support there is for booting from that these days.  There probably is, but it's increasingly obscure how to do it
< 1696433934 851 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :booting from what?
< 1696433997 819705 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Booting from a compressed kernel.  Oh hey, that means it DOES fit on a floppy, a "normal" 1.44MB one.
< 1696434058 76975 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1696434066 801936 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the decompression used to be built into the kernel image itself, but these days I'm not sure if it's in the kernel or the boot loader anymore. In any case, grub2 is customizable so you can probably build a very tiny one if it only needs to support one thing.
< 1696434075 612703 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696434132 99502 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :One-floppy Linuxes were definitely a thing still in 2002-2003.
< 1696434245 721748 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had my "civil service" (alternative way for doing the compulsory Finnish military service thing) then, at a place, where I had to answer phones between, I don't know, something like 3pm-5pm when the normal receptionists had gone home, and there was a computer I didn't have account on, but I could reboot it into a single-floppy Linux with an SSH client to chat in IRC during the 95% of the time
< 1696434247 541731 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :nobody was calling.
> 1696434271 495408 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07HQ9+B14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117445&oldid=30545 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+32) 10Stub, category
> 1696434331 20347 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dbfi14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117446&oldid=112834 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+29) 10Category
< 1696434347 399911 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(It probably had many megabytes of RAM though.)
> 1696434385 808022 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[074Head/AuthorImplementation.c14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117447&oldid=108690 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+16) 10Back
< 1696434782 658706 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1696434911 392580 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1696435203 643664 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1696435207 215707 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm back!
< 1696435285 86071 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net QUIT :Client Quit
< 1696436111 505716 :isabella!izabera@user/izabera NICK :isabellatrix
< 1696436552 546470 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a QUIT :Quit: Leaving.
< 1696437170 981541 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1696437580 416188 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1696437586 56493 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyone here?
> 1696444708 243771 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[074Head14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117448&oldid=114220 5* 031hals 5* (+364) 10explain more
> 1696444767 338534 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[074Head14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117449&oldid=117448 5* 031hals 5* (+3) 10
> 1696446202 502855 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Counting14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117450&oldid=89293 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+822) 10Rectified several examples which were based on the assumption of a counter start value of 1, another which employed the undefined print statement, and introduced a 99 Bottles of Beer program.
> 1696446254 241450 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Counting14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117451&oldid=117450 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+166) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the Counting programming language on GitHub and changed the category tag Unimplemented to Implemented.
< 1696447021 683736 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1696447580 898743 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Quit: gone too far
> 1696448031 456769 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Standard single-character instructions14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117452&oldid=44833 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+13) 10Stub, link
< 1696448127 429600 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :No human is online.
> 1696448308 724384 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stack14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117453&oldid=112892 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+26) 10/* See Also */ Link to push-down automaton
< 1696448647 961393 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)
< 1696450090 443284 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyone?
> 1696450118 94104 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Counting14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117454&oldid=117451 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+588) 10Added a pseudocode formulation of the program concepts, and amended two mistakes.
< 1696450386 221439 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
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< 1696451100 613346 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696451305 452180 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net QUIT :Client Quit
< 1696451837 398451 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right now I am on
< 1696451944 149788 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi zzo38!
< 1696452007 213665 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Do you have any question or something else to write about? (Note, there are also logs, that if the question is written on a different day, someone might still read it; but I am on now so if you have a question now then maybe I might be able to answer (or maybe I don't know).)
< 1696452329 418123 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :No. Anyways, go check out my esolang (Deadfish++).
< 1696452338 764311 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you haven't already.
< 1696452347 419533 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, I will look
< 1696453004 414141 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Thanks
> 1696453161 126820 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfish++14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117455&oldid=117443 5* 03Europe2048 5* (+44) 10One-line coding is here.
< 1696453253 524049 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sorry for the afk.
> 1696453494 273881 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SimpliVode14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117456&oldid=58366 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+51) 10Stub, categories
> 1696454476 507057 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Counting14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117457&oldid=117454 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+5041) 10Introduced a commands section comprehending the binary operations in a tabular illustration.
< 1696454551 269983 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
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> 1696455804 877222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Betterfunge14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117458&oldid=98455 5* 03LEOMOK 5* (+106) 10fixed mistakes and added a note
> 1696455838 937611 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Betterfunge14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117459&oldid=117458 5* 03LEOMOK 5* (+3) 10fixed another mistake
< 1696455954 14328 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.214.226.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl QUIT :
> 1696456515 151781 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rotary Quine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117460&oldid=68895 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+4) 10Link
> 1696460653 484770 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Counting14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117461&oldid=117457 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+456) 10Supplemented a tabular aperu concerning the unary operators.
> 1696461262 401437 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Counting14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117462&oldid=117461 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+1121) 10Added information regarding the three available statements halt, out, and read, as well as such concerning comments.
< 1696465921 613732 :Guest71!~Guest71@lhgh-8-208-126-202-129.dsl.netins.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Guest71
< 1696465921 658854 :Guest71!~Guest71@lhgh-8-208-126-202-129.dsl.netins.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi
< 1696465961 758671 :Guest71!~Guest71@lhgh-8-208-126-202-129.dsl.netins.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi
< 1696465972 497809 :Guest71!~Guest71@lhgh-8-208-126-202-129.dsl.netins.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :bye
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< 1696466857 17766 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1696466912 60181 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1696468025 613652 :Zefoo!~Zefoo@2601:282:8600:e20:7dc4:d464:88d:1269 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Zefoo
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< 1696468430 417525 :raz3time!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
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< 1696471979 84404 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Killed (lead.libera.chat (Nickname regained by services))
< 1696471981 18215 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1696471986 763928 :user3456_!user3456@user/user3456 JOIN #esolangs user3456 :user3456
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< 1696472054 204408 :user3456_!user3456@user/user3456 NICK :user3456
< 1696479628 432014 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: The plot thickens: https://github.com/icculus/mojosetup/commit/1ad762b82a7dbd435285afd74fca9f334d6c5930 is newer than GOG, so if they forked mojosetup they may not have ZIP64 support.
< 1696479781 625359 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know you had mention before the "So Broken" sokoban game. Is this the proper rules?   http://sprunge.us/h6Sk6W  (I have not actually played the game, so I guessed)
< 1696479952 591170 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :how does that differ from sokoban?
< 1696479990 311717 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The main point of So Broken is that undo/redo do not move the player, only the boxes.
< 1696480073 502142 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(And it's okay for the player to be on the same square as a box; the player just can't move then.)
< 1696480211 643958 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, did you play Tres Undos?
< 1696480213 471605 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Other than that... hmm I seem to recall colored boxes and targets? I don't remember all the mechanics.
< 1696480217 364358 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I mentioned it in here before?
< 1696480222 989920 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe that's the context the other one came up in?
< 1696480260 531456 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway I can't read zzo38's paste.
< 1696480279 535722 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is the player supposed to not move if the box is in the same position than player?
< 1696480324 721867 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Does the paste not work, it works but is unreadable?
< 1696480360 591750 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do not know what it does. I do not know what language that is.
< 1696480418 243251 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :It is the Free Hero Mesh programming language, and it is (intended to be) a implementation of So Broken game.
< 1696480427 350375 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :In the original game, if the player is on the same square as a box, then only the box is displayed; the player is hidden and trying to move has no effect.
< 1696480497 91842 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :One way this happens is that you push a box one square and then "undo"... the box will revert to its previous position, and the player will stay there.
< 1696480521 352297 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :This implementation uses S and R to save/restore the position of the boxes, by creating a invisible (and non-interacting) object to save its position. (VisualOnly means it is non-interacting with movement; Invisible is implied because Image is not specified for that class.) (The game engine has undo/redo function but its meaning cannot be changed like that.)
< 1696480571 101660 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :You can move through a box by pushing it twice (provided there is enough space) and then "undo" twice.
< 1696480593 351760 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION shrugs.

< 1696480610 15403 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :This one doesn't prevent the player from moving where there is a box, although it could be changed to prevent that easily enough if it is desired. (Although, I thought it would be necessary to be in the same position due to one of the screenshots?)
< 1696480662 584626 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The player can't move into the same cell as a box except by pushing R to move the box where there is the player, but if that is the case, the player can then move out of that cell.)
< 1696480668 192513 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I actually forgot... I seem to recall that the undo/redo stack is unaffected as long as the player moves without pushing a box?
< 1696480690 331757 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Been a while.
< 1696481064 364909 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Making the player invisible if there is a box in the same cell would also be possible, but I think merely to prevent being movement would be good enough)
< 1696481110 911827 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Making many colour of boxes also would be possible to do but also I had not done; none of the screenshots shown there have colours of boxes, anyways)
< 1696481751 42733 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Do you like to make up the puzzle game, too?
< 1696481780 200069 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: oh god, how many levels of "really" does that game add to "undo"?
< 1696481952 713360 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: The name is a hint.
< 1696482048 315599 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So it is.
< 1696482156 464022 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :What I had read a comment of Tres Undos says four undo levels, but only three are actually used
< 1696483127 372256 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1696483282 453802 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
< 1696483741 517391 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1696483809 457778 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org JOIN #esolangs hooloovoo :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1696484513 532030 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hats?!
< 1696484532 971473 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh I see. FANCY
< 1696485133 561614 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm missing the point of the puzzle though.
< 1696485367 856599 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1696485385 746092 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
< 1696485489 454674 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's only one puzzle with hats, right?
< 1696485516 738895 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm guessing it's more to show the idea.
< 1696485524 114119 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, no, there's also a "Player Pack" with extra puzzles.
< 1696485604 289941 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :And they also have another new element, hmm.
< 1696485642 134283 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll get back to it later but for the time being I'm stuck on that one, hmm, "official" hat level.
< 1696489025 313864 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, I misunderstood.
< 1696490187 78002 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: which game is the hat in? I'm confused among all these games mentioned now
< 1696490220 10652 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The Tres Undo one
< 1696490226 130824 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :+s
< 1696492065 201254 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, got it... basically forgot a trick.
< 1696493036 869004 :user3456!user3456@user/user3456 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1696493796 386254 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1696494491 508608 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
< 1696494877 438873 :user3456!user3456@user/user3456 JOIN #esolangs user3456 :user3456
< 1696495403 626682 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1696498083 417744 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
< 1696498130 626220 :cpressey!~cpressey@45.136.108.105 JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696498549 246003 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
> 1696500146 735007 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Counting14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117463&oldid=117462 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+781) 10Introduced a section treating of the involved data types.
< 1696500492 801082 :cpressey!~cpressey@45.136.108.105 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi arseniiv
< 1696500502 191284 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi!
< 1696500738 820452 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: the player pack looks difficult... I have solved *one* of those so far
< 1696501571 70995 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: what are you and shachaf playing? Sorry I missed the start of discussion
< 1696501608 922218 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :we have logs :P
< 1696501629 283226 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :IDK what to search for :')
< 1696501680 321966 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :don’t want to read them, I’ll won’t know how to stop and will eventually forget what I look for
< 1696501730 474657 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :btw were it some of you here who’ve suggested to play Patrick’s Parabox? It was absolute masterpiece
< 1696501749 526045 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :very much liked the experience
< 1696501850 362515 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: it's literally in the past 10 messages, well, was, before your monolog
< 1696501853 365844 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs ::P
< 1696501884 926884 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: oh sorry I thought it was earlier this week or something
< 1696502046 276205 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :found it, thankso
< 1696502095 85170 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: then was it a different game that I seem to remember you discuss a week or so earlier?
< 1696502112 508161 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :idle curiosity
< 1696502278 620758 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :btw have I written anything about microtonal music here? No themed esolang though, I don’t think there can be a fruitful idea to marry the two
< 1696502313 340527 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :a week ago?
< 1696502321 8857 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(there is plenty of esomath though: linear algebra applications, including exterior algebra; and some other things)
< 1696502355 400424 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, speaking of linear algebra, what's going on with cyclic codes?
< 1696502361 192733 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: if you don’t remember then I either synthesized something that wasn’t, or bad with time. No problem then
< 1696502361 305171 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Why are people into them?
< 1696502412 561333 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(cyclic codes looked pretty esoteric to me last time I’ve seen them, but I have barely an understanding)
< 1696502439 818146 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :So one thing is codes generated by a polynomial. Fix some field, and take a polynomial p of degree k in that field, and consider strings of length n > k. The code words are exactly the multiples of p.
< 1696502444 271549 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right?
< 1696502489 119404 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :And one property of cyclic codes is that they're always generated by a polynomial -- specifically the (unique) lowest-degree monic polynomial in the code -- and also that polynomial divides x^n - 1
< 1696502542 832323 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've gathered this much.
< 1696502570 972930 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :And these things aren't that hard to prove.
< 1696502583 71827 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, and also any polynomial that divides x^n - 1 generates a cyclic code.
< 1696502632 441599 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: There was that Niagara board game discussion
< 1696502638 927333 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm confused about why people call CRC on variable-length messages -- where there's no particular n -- "cyclic redundancy check", since it seems like it's only cyclic for some message lengths. But maybe people are just being general.
< 1696502653 350267 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: aah
< 1696502732 232358 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? like
< 1696502735 171845 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :like? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1696502843 522523 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: and before that the last thing I remember is me discussing shapez.io and its puzzle DLC
< 1696502847 181999 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION shrugs

< 1696503057 512466 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Remind me, did you play SquishCraft?
< 1696503100 441355 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :doesn't ring a bell
< 1696503115 913238 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(i.e. I don't even recall a recommendation or anything)
< 1696503123 662888 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Uh oh!
< 1696503138 68161 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I should get back to that one, I only played a bit.
< 1696503163 670138 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I suspect it's up your alley?
< 1696503165 480749 :cpressey!~cpressey@45.136.108.105 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: I never found that name too confusing; I took it to mean that the check cycles at n even if the message is shorter or longer than n (or 2n or whatever)
< 1696503181 521699 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :we did have a square-squishing puzzle game though.
< 1696503236 44932 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: Fair enough.
< 1696503244 251356 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so hmm
< 1696503247 837388 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, is there always some n for any polynomial?
< 1696503255 821035 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: that looks familiar, I must have forgotten the name
< 1696503291 238784 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, OK.
< 1696503324 760772 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw PRIVMSG #esolangs :squishcraft has an interesting promotional video on steam.
< 1696503326 581340 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://bcat112a.itch.io/squishcraft was in my browser history
< 1696503349 881778 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, that's the demo.
< 1696503384 168624 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's a "full" version for 259 rupees.
< 1696503432 630107 :cpressey!~cpressey@45.136.108.105 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1696503477 216907 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, it costs about twice as many rupees here!
< 1696503511 762225 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw PRIVMSG #esolangs :seems like a nice way to spend a few hourse
< 1696503691 796096 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess polynomial codes, or maybe cyclic codes, are much easier to do error correction with?
< 1696504167 679931 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: hmmmmmmm
< 1696504198 851584 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw PRIVMSG #esolangs :reasoning about how these squishes skew the blocks is getting quite difficult.
< 1696504837 156528 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1696505035 418549 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: it's a matter of taste but I'd say no. zip uses crc32 checksum while gzip uses adler checksum, and if you have one corrupted bit it's easier to find which one it is with adler than with crc, because for crc you need to find the logarithm of a polynomial in your field
< 1696505072 931293 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:582e:ee88:dac5:c85b JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
< 1696505439 260214 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :crc32 is linear in GF(2**32), the byte in position n is weighted with the nth power of some generator; while Adler is linear in GF(65521)**2, the byte in position n is weighted with (1, n), except I think the position is counted backwards from the end of the file
< 1696506205 81485 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: oh did you ever see this: https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2023-09-18.html#lgd ff. (not sure whether that's still of interest after 2 weeks...)
< 1696506323 2304 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I forgot except that somehow, CRC32 has now come up once again)
< 1696506428 251038 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I ended up rediscovering it myself but thanks! My implementation was without prepending 0xff bytes though, I think I might have been used something else instead
< 1696506466 681452 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's just a weirdly easy trick to change the internal state back to 0.
< 1696506536 480579 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I played with that for a bit that time, was satisfied crcs are now all right, timed it in a cheap way, tinkered for a bit with different speed improvements and left as is, as I wasn’t in need to extract ogg tracks from anything anymore :D
< 1696506615 264793 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"weirdly easy"... I spent those 30-40 minutes trying various more complicated variations because I thought it should be harder. Silly me.
< 1696506670 572360 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :also don't trust what I say above, I have only very little understanding of error-correcting codes, and may be wrong about the specifics above
< 1696506699 953012 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :eyah I get why all that xoring with 0xff and nonzero intial state to make zero-run-prepending errors catchable, and I get why OGG doesn’t need that (because each chapter should already start with fixed nonzero bytes) but why oh why OGG and zlib are bit-backwards to each other
< 1696506717 54581 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: yes, that's normal in programming, the hard part is to find the simple solutions
< 1696506741 127415 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ha
< 1696506766 406707 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: Because of Gulliver's Travels of course.
< 1696506811 196085 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :before reading about backward bits I checked I think 8 or 16 variations in code, and only after all of them were wrong did I try to search for anything
< 1696506853 971516 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: what wh… ah yes I remember. I didn’t read that part myself but I read about that after
< 1696506914 950703 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: AIUI this, hmm, essay is the actual origin of the term "endianness": https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien137.txt
< 1696507018 631289 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Well, not the term, but its application to computers and networking technology.)
< 1696507049 413955 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: zlib is ancient but I think CRC32 is older still than it, and CRC32 is kind of a simple mathematical idea, so zlib doesn't get to define one canonical version for it. we talked on #esolangs earlier on how x86 has three different unrelated instructions for multiplication in a two-power finite field like you need for CRC, they use two or
< 1696507049 914528 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :three different encodings that differ in the choice of generating polynomial, and that while these all represent the field element as a polynomial of a generator, there are two other ways to represent elements of these fields, the logarithmic one that https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=862789 uses, and the one that David Madore's IOCCC entry uses
< 1696507128 875930 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the representation that David Madore's IOCCC entry uses is still linear, but the coeffs aren't powers of a generating polynomial
< 1696507205 352801 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :<wib_jonas> x86 has three different unrelated instructions for multiplication in a two-power finite field => ow ow
< 1696507557 161820 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: PCLMULQDQ , GF2P8AFFINEQB , and CRC32. search the chat logs for it, we discussed them two or three times.
< 1696507954 615176 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: thanks!
< 1696509181 641900 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1696510556 607334 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117464&oldid=117133 5* 03None1 5* (+100) 10
> 1696510619 886008 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117465&oldid=117464 5* 03None1 5* (+101) 10
< 1696510783 497157 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
> 1696510918 850187 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117466&oldid=117465 5* 03None1 5* (+64) 10/* Commands */
> 1696510933 14653 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117467&oldid=117466 5* 03None1 5* (+3) 10/* Commands */
< 1696511382 614230 :cpressey!~cpressey@45.136.108.105 JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696511467 927243 :cpressey!~cpressey@45.136.108.105 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I tried to learn more about probability theory over the summer.
< 1696511601 40246 :cpressey!~cpressey@45.136.108.105 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I learned that Kolmogorov's 2nd axiom, while indisputably necessary, also prevents probability distributions from having nicer algebraic properties
< 1696511701 167092 :cpressey!~cpressey@45.136.108.105 PRIVMSG #esolangs :You can combine distributions in various ways, but you have to keep normalizing the result so that it sums to 1, and that is a buzzkill, algebraically speaking
< 1696511838 99844 :cpressey!~cpressey@45.136.108.105 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So I started thinking, maybe you can apply operations to underlying "populations" of some sort, something more concrete, and then derive the probability distribution from that, only when you need a probability distribution, at the end of some sequence of operations.
< 1696511852 125459 :cpressey!~cpressey@45.136.108.105 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That seems to work more nicely.
< 1696512060 927423 :cpressey!~cpressey@45.136.108.105 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But it also seems likely that it's too artificial to have much practical use.
< 1696512197 285137 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1696512412 604736 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117468&oldid=117310 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+60) 10
< 1696512624 727691 :cpressey!~cpressey@45.136.108.105 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, I also learned that the philosophical basis for probability theory is far from uncontroversial.
> 1696512736 556751 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Alpha14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117469&oldid=117399 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+24) 10
> 1696512851 586939 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Alpha14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117470&oldid=117469 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+126) 10
> 1696512865 356939 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Alpha14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117471&oldid=117470 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+15) 10/* Input Problem */
> 1696513444 809688 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Beta14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117472 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+1169) 10Created page with "'''Beta''' is an esoteric programming language that is part of a series by User:Infinitehexagon on Greek esolangs that will be a derivative of the previous esolang with more commands, less commands, or modified commands. It has 4 more extra commands than Alpha. ==C
> 1696513474 350437 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Beta14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117473&oldid=117472 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+0) 10
< 1696514256 347096 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:582e:ee88:dac5:c85b QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1696514258 662872 :cpressey!~cpressey@45.136.108.105 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
> 1696514436 448482 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Beta14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117474&oldid=117473 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+376) 10
> 1696514465 862130 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Beta14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117475&oldid=117474 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+2) 10
> 1696514491 839113 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Beta14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117476&oldid=117475 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+4) 10
> 1696514548 780958 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117477&oldid=117442 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+2) 10/* 99 bottles of beer */ +1
> 1696514767 728006 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Beta14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117478&oldid=117476 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+12) 10
> 1696514938 485460 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Beta14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117479&oldid=117478 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+75) 10
< 1696515057 613993 :cpressey!~cpressey@45.136.108.105 JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696515141 416911 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
> 1696515188 993483 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Beta14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117480&oldid=117479 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+38) 10
> 1696515216 658662 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Alpha14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117481&oldid=117471 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+33) 10/* Truth machine */
< 1696515291 325007 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: how about probability frameworks à la random matrices? I forget what it was called, dressed as an abstract thing (something like C-algebra); it also was described somewhere at Terry Tao’s blog and might be called “noncommutative probability” or “free probability”. I’ll look at my bookmarks
< 1696515306 882859 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that framework might be free from some of Kolmogorov-style pitfails
> 1696515325 105421 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Infinitehexagon14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117482&oldid=117387 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+9) 10/* My Esolangs (chronological order) */
> 1696515336 186068 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Infinitehexagon14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117483&oldid=117482 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+4) 10/* My Esolangs (chronological order) */
< 1696515344 458684 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I don’t remember if one can describe an arbitrary distribution that way, or only, say, ℂ-valued ones
> 1696515354 689039 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Infinitehexagon14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117484&oldid=117483 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+2) 10/* Things I might do */
< 1696515380 742257 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this post: https://terrytao.wordpress.com/2010/02/10/245a-notes-5-free-probability/
< 1696515443 367047 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it was where I learned that this exists at all, first. But I’ve already forgotten most of it. I just noted it looks quantum-mechanically (because these things are really related in the end)
< 1696515961 212882 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, an unital *-algebra and a *-linear functional which sends 1 to 1. The latter should be, I presume, equivalent to the axiom you’ve mentioned, so this would be no way out, then
< 1696516040 421529 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1696516056 373377 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, Tao writes the same right away. 1 is like the whole sample space (its projection operator)
< 1696516087 181457 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
< 1696516146 385649 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:c025:74ef:97cf:b3ba JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
< 1696516928 146258 :cpressey!~cpressey@45.136.108.105 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Mmm that is very interesting though
> 1696517304 927366 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Listack14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117485&oldid=117032 5* 03McChuck 5* (+19) 10/* Listack: A symmetric, flat, stack-based, concatenative language */
< 1696517423 74377 :cpressey!~cpressey@45.136.108.105 PRIVMSG #esolangs :way over my head for the most part, but still, very interesting
> 1696517497 219945 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:McChuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117486&oldid=104613 5* 03McChuck 5* (+14) 10
> 1696517562 714703 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:McChuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117487&oldid=117486 5* 03McChuck 5* (+99) 10
> 1696517646 942526 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:McChuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117488&oldid=117487 5* 03McChuck 5* (+14) 10
< 1696517749 458610 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1696518153 734547 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1696518179 493143 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
> 1696519156 939221 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Beta14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117489&oldid=117480 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+69) 10Link, categories
< 1696519459 312378 :Cale!~cale@cpe80d04ade0a03-cm80d04ade0a01.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1696520279 619639 :Cale!~cale@cpe80d04ade0a03-cm80d04ade0a01.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN #esolangs Cale :realname
< 1696520592 328125 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Quit: Go back to your cringe 9 to 5. I'll be gaming.
< 1696522333 445201 :cpressey!~cpressey@45.136.108.105 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1696522979 158829 :wpa!uid568065@id-568065.helmsley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs WeepingAngel :wpa
< 1696524794 329619 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:c025:74ef:97cf:b3ba QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1696524869 614816 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1696524927 676036 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi everyone!
< 1696524992 524165 :wpa!uid568065@id-568065.helmsley.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi
< 1696525169 346494 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm adding escape sequences to my esolang, Deadfish++.
< 1696526050 21159 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.214.226.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1696526314 812376 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi FreeFull, check out my esolang, Deadfish++!
< 1696526326 794481 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.214.226.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl PRIVMSG #esolangs :Alright, lemme have a look at it
< 1696526446 498900 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.214.226.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's a lot of commands
< 1696526475 96214 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.214.226.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hm, a good name for Deadfish with input would be Readfish
< 1696526931 458779 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Hm, a good name for Deadfish with input would be Readfish" Great idea!
> 1696528109 437061 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfish++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117490&oldid=117455 5* 03Europe2048 5* (+1580) 10Added escape sequences and many more operations.
< 1696528151 591626 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:95e3:8ed1:45d1:3e55 JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
< 1696528436 47796 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Welcome, Koen! Go try out my esolang: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Deadfish++
> 1696529191 19606 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfish++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117491&oldid=117490 5* 03Europe2048 5* (+476) 10Added errors.
> 1696529323 365490 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfish++14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117492&oldid=117491 5* 03Europe2048 5* (+70) 101 new error
< 1696531382 912249 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:95e3:8ed1:45d1:3e55 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1696531408 807413 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:95e3:8ed1:45d1:3e55 JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
< 1696531690 812739 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:95e3:8ed1:45d1:3e55 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1696532620 198805 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Quit: gone too far
< 1696533513 566658 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving
> 1696533701 248897 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfish++14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117493&oldid=117492 5* 03Europe2048 5* (+29) 10
> 1696534709 649104 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfish++14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117494&oldid=117493 5* 03Europe2048 5* (+6) 10
< 1696534719 527778 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :No human is online...
< 1696534879 832012 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am on right now (and, I have seen Deadfish++)
< 1696534935 419205 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Do you like Hero Hearts game?
< 1696535243 554785 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't even know what's Hero Hearts.
< 1696535544 872827 :wpa!uid568065@id-568065.helmsley.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1696535696 908811 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1696536155 613006 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1696536374 840540 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ANYONE?
< 1696536876 867484 :Wryl-o-the-wisp!sid553797@user/wryl QUIT :
< 1696537552 825118 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1696538434 570627 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfish14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117495&oldid=116836 5* 03Europe2048 5* (+180) 10Added Deadfish++ to interpreter list.
< 1696538445 612604 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1696540059 165318 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night!
< 1696540663 364467 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1696540875 366639 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:a8a1:2b79:94ca:dfb JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
< 1696543285 667647 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:a8a1:2b79:94ca:dfb QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1696543388 590706 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:c050:acd3:faf7:3a1 JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
< 1696543676 592811 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:c050:acd3:faf7:3a1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1696544477 334004 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117496&oldid=117495 5* 03Zzo38 5* (-169) 10The implementation in Free Hero Mesh can be done by (Control) to not needing placing objects in the level.
< 1696545824 745212 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.214.226.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl QUIT :
< 1696546377 272714 :[iovoid]!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid JOIN #esolangs iovoid :may exhibit nonlinear behavior
< 1696546460 928029 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1696546479 307327 :[iovoid]!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid NICK :iovoid
< 1696553376 994441 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1696553412 326010 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1696556027 675370 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07COVID-1914]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117497&oldid=84059 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (-7) 10Missing some formatting
< 1696556127 394693 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
> 1696557362 821998 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117498&oldid=117477 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (-1) 10/* 99 bottles of beer */
< 1696558375 904304 :Wryl-o-the-wisp!sid553797@user/wryl JOIN #esolangs Wryl :Wryl
> 1696559232 956031 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117499&oldid=117498 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+4) 10/* 99 bottles of beer */ +2
> 1696559513 9281 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0799 bottles of beer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117500&oldid=117284 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+1125) 10/* List of implementations */ Adding [[Bawkbawk]] implementation
< 1696559716 175096 :Wryl-o-the-wisp!sid553797@user/wryl QUIT :
> 1696559718 744499 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117501&oldid=116799 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+9) 10
> 1696559845 242969 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117502&oldid=117499 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+23) 10/* Memory */
> 1696559941 752359 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117503&oldid=117502 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+73) 10/* 99 bottles of beer */ aha
> 1696559999 805104 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117504&oldid=117503 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (-37) 10/* Text to Bawkbawk */ eehe
> 1696560354 361667 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117505&oldid=117504 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+10) 10/* invisible */ visible
< 1696569608 428296 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1696572444 339108 :razetime!~razetime@v385-gateway.cs.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
> 1696573597 884444 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07For The Worthy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117506&oldid=116049 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+25) 10Category
> 1696573672 371994 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dropsort14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117507&oldid=44547 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+23) 10Category
< 1696574723 449519 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1696577006 270654 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:3ce4:2408:dce0:30b3 JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
< 1696579026 646363 :Cale!~cale@cpe80d04ade0a03-cm80d04ade0a01.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1696580036 814151 :sprout!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-1-945d-e8f0-805c-53d5.fixed6.kpn.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1696580531 613463 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696580919 948446 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :<cpressey> You can combine distributions in various ways, but you have to keep normalizing the result so that it sums to 1, and that is a buzzkill, algebraically speaking <------ I had a thought late last night that make me seriously question this.  Of course, I don't know if I should trust that thought.  But I need to investigate this again.
< 1696581146 72763 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1696581715 40776 :sprout!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-1-a8f4-d9c9-588-489b.fixed6.kpn.net JOIN #esolangs sprout :sprout
< 1696582139 739399 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Instead of making sure the result sums to 1 always, can we not let the result sum to whatever (positive) value n, and divide by n only when necessary?  And our operations that combine probabilities would also have to combine n's.
< 1696582157 646082 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :s/result/distribution/
< 1696582747 884575 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :The two operations I care about are AND or OR, naturally.  For AND you multiply probabilities.  To extend it to this should be easy: it's just multiplying fractions instead.  Really, just another way of looking at the numbers you're multiplying.
< 1696582776 186445 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :OR is a little more involved, I need to go look it up
< 1696582908 248079 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :P(A∪B)=P(A)+P(B)−P(A∩B)
< 1696583046 199264 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That AND assumes the probabilities are independent
< 1696583063 491725 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm happy with getting something that works with only independent probabilities
< 1696583097 508611 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK
< 1696583109 895029 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1696583871 59482 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :It sort of came from stuff I was doing with Markov chains, and every transition in a Markov chain is independent.
< 1696584655 291210 :razetime!~razetime@v385-gateway.cs.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1696585525 942652 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, I see where my thinking is wrong
< 1696585899 104446 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :It doesn't matter whether you normalize the probability to 1 or whether you maintain it as a ratio.  It doesn't change the fact that there are a number of laws that multiplication of ratios doesn't obey.
< 1696586456 478338 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :If we arbitrarily say that AND is min and OR is max, then we get more laws, and we can form a distributive lattice, even.  But these operations don't correspond with anything in practice.
< 1696586509 746103 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I think that is not a showstopper for my purposes.  It would be nice if they corresponded with something in practice.  But it's not critical.  I'd rather have the lattice
< 1696587202 812945 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :This does raise the question for me, of what does it mean intuitively, to apply min and max to probabilities, which is a bit vexing.  But I can try to ignore that
< 1696587383 254174 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony QUIT :Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)
< 1696587757 558754 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, OK, it means "as least as probable that", doesn't it?  Flipping a coin and getting heads is as least as probable as rolling a 1 on a 6-sided die.  min() and max() are, like, picking one of the two events based on a ranking, rather than combining them to form a new probability.
< 1696587878 125494 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :s/a ranking/their rank according to their probabilities/
< 1696588975 510464 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
< 1696589939 123744 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
> 1696590571 728928 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117508&oldid=117505 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+0) 10moving `see also` to the bottom
< 1696590622 616433 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1696590650 34142 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi everyone! If I made yet another IPA esolang, will it be cell-based or stack-based?
< 1696590707 233639 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Should it be turing-complete or not?
< 1696590720 281435 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Will it be based on another esolang or not?
< 1696591162 555499 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Europe2048: In this context, soes IPA mean International Phonetic Alphabet?
< 1696591168 835082 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :*does
< 1696591173 547431 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes.
< 1696591266 979680 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Europe2048: Thanks.  Re your questions, I don't know if I can give you any answer besides "Follow your heart".
< 1696591312 450849 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: So you can't give me an answer for yourself?
< 1696591416 666829 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, I've never made an esolang based on IPA, so I can't say.  I did design one where every program element was pronounceable, years and years ago, but I shelved it.  I don't clearly remember what its semantics were, I'd have to dig it up and puzzle over it.
< 1696591438 541819 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Some other people made IPA esolangs too!
< 1696591480 382823 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Actually, I believe one of the attributes of standardized FORTH was that every symbol had a standardized pronounciation
< 1696591526 383506 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :You don't want some programmers saying "dupp" and others saying "doop", do you.  Makes debugging over the telephone harder than it needs to be.
< 1696591609 765428 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :To fix that problem, I'll make a sound for each example program.
< 1696591830 432302 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, I'll also make sure every program is pronouncable in my esolang.
< 1696593927 241045 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyone?!
< 1696594190 928098 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :doop dee dup
> 1696595904 682377 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:Quote14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117509 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+32) 10shortcut4quotes
> 1696596172 299028 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117510&oldid=117508 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+757) 10/* Implementations */ a big discovery 
> 1696596218 213525 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117511&oldid=117510 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (-14) 10fixiy
> 1696596376 14774 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117512&oldid=117511 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (-9) 10small grammar mistake
< 1696596481 389690 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:3ce4:2408:dce0:30b3 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1696597594 822564 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hello, int-e!
< 1696598046 163574 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ANYONE?!!?!?!??!?
< 1696598333 471394 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Are cell-based and stack-based the only two options?
< 1696599181 717189 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw PRIVMSG #esolangs :not really.
< 1696599194 964484 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw PRIVMSG #esolangs :you'll find a lot more if you try a little bit.
> 1696599221 814370 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117513&oldid=117467 5* 03None1 5* (+324) 10/* Commands */
< 1696599266 833260 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi razetime, should I make an IPA esolang?
> 1696599356 788132 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117514&oldid=117513 5* 03None1 5* (+110) 10/* Commands */
> 1696599418 658993 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117515&oldid=117514 5* 03None1 5* (+56) 10/* Commands */
< 1696599576 728136 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw PRIVMSG #esolangs :you should make whatever you like.
< 1696599618 872324 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw PRIVMSG #esolangs :it doesn't matter if it's unoriginal. we have a lot to go around. just make something.
> 1696600351 589659 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117516&oldid=117515 5* 03None1 5* (+643) 10/* Commands */  Add examples
> 1696600371 604638 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117517&oldid=117516 5* 03None1 5* (+1) 10/* Examples */  Close open brackets
> 1696600383 6650 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117518&oldid=117517 5* 03None1 5* (+1) 10/* =Hello World */
> 1696600428 502446 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117519&oldid=117518 5* 03None1 5* (+105) 10
> 1696600463 911645 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117520&oldid=117519 5* 03None1 5* (-1574) 10Moved out of sandbox
> 1696600517 205192 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wsad14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117521 5* 03None1 5* (+1712) 10Created page with " {{bf}} wsad is a [[brainfuck]] derivative, that uses only 4 characters. ==Commands== Every command consists of two characters in {{cd|w, s, a, d}}, for example: {{cd|wa}} is equivalent to the {{cd|+}} command in brainfuck.  It is case insensitive. {|class=wikitable ! First 
< 1696600571 307258 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:454e:d2c5:88f4:a9ff JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
> 1696600573 102079 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117522&oldid=117330 5* 03None1 5* (+11) 10/* W */
> 1696600657 813179 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07WCDA14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117523&oldid=76373 5* 03None1 5* (+23) 10
> 1696600794 69216 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117524&oldid=117184 5* 03None1 5* (+76) 10/* My Esolangs */
< 1696600835 250932 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:454e:d2c5:88f4:a9ff QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
> 1696601255 300672 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[074 esolang + Python polyglot14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117525&oldid=117073 5* 03None1 5* (+764) 10/* External Resources */
> 1696601270 347300 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[074 esolang + Python polyglot14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117526&oldid=117525 5* 03None1 5* (-1) 10/* External Resources */
> 1696601551 889791 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117527&oldid=117520 5* 03None1 5* (+302) 10
> 1696601709 238409 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wsad14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117528&oldid=117521 5* 03None1 5* (+13) 10
> 1696601757 434509 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wsad14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117529&oldid=117528 5* 03None1 5* (+14) 10
> 1696601797 900370 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wsad14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117530&oldid=117529 5* 03None1 5* (+2) 10
> 1696601868 815967 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:XKCD Random Number14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117531&oldid=116446 5* 03None1 5* (+27) 10/* WeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeBasic */
> 1696602025 692236 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:XKCD Random Number14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117532&oldid=117531 5* 03None1 5* (+8666) 10/* JSFuck */
> 1696602075 886315 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:XKCD Random Number14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117533&oldid=117532 5* 03None1 5* (+45) 10/* JSFuck */
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< 1696604741 623041 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696605223 203117 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1696606154 593328 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1696606523 754199 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1696607175 617265 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1696607203 266433 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi everyone!
< 1696607320 613452 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696607459 267775 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net QUIT :Client Quit
< 1696607846 282147 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :hello
< 1696608289 316855 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi river!
< 1696608295 121309 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Should I make an IPA esolang?
< 1696608299 221614 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1696608317 519325 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Would it be cell-based, stack-based, or something else?
< 1696608944 612914 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696609630 477701 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1696609724 906103 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Quit: Go back to your cringe 9 to 5. I'll be gaming.
< 1696610224 270279 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1696610282 421113 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie
< 1696611344 541480 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: finally got my hands on Tres Undos, some funny moments there
< 1696611504 591280 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi, arseniiv!
< 1696611523 961830 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :If I made an IPA esolang, would it be cell based, stack based, or something else?
< 1696611585 975603 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Europe2048: well if that’s IPA, it won’t be of any justice to not make it phonetics-based in some way. Stacks and tapes are too mundane for that
< 1696611627 505603 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :So you're saying it should be cell-based?
< 1696611644 107018 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so one’d better investigate computational capabilities of human articulatory system, of course, why should it be cell-based
< 1696611694 201451 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :So you're saying it should be stack-based?
< 1696611703 666477 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :creaky voice can be a source of computational units, then oral-nasal distinction can be used for branching
< 1696611809 22177 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Europe2048: no it shouldn’t. What makes you believe that
< 1696611811 486001 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I’m just curious a bit how it all works)
< 1696611848 1974 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, lateral consonants are of utmost importance, moreso lateral affricates
< 1696611850 707105 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Just say cell- or stack-based already! I can't understand!
< 1696611895 933690 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Europe2048: I’m not keen on either, why should it be cell- or stack-based when it can be so much more, like monkey paw based
< 1696611929 33982 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or Yog-Sothoth based, I probably minced the name but that’s for the best
< 1696611940 584683 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the possibilities!
< 1696611962 144888 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Should it be based on conlangs or something?
< 1696612037 488614 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even better, Yog-Sothoth over a field of characteristic two. Can’t do spicier than that, char 2 makes all sorts of ridiculous nuisances
< 1696612042 829420 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or Ithkuil, yes
< 1696612048 48932 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(that’s a conlang)
< 1696612064 656859 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I’d be very pleased to look at an esolang which does Ithkuil a justice
< 1696612135 304510 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, anyways, tell me what should it be based on in particular.
< 1696612290 609770 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ithkuil, bonus points for a quine which translates from Ithkuil as “this program is licenced under LGPL, MIT and CC0 and is a valid excuse to learn some Lojban in turn”
< 1696612313 664456 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but each valid program should be a valid Ithkuil sentence
< 1696612334 807286 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even more bonus points: each Ithkuil sentence is a valid program
< 1696612342 245279 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :How can I do that? Ithkuil is literally the hardest language to learn!
< 1696612358 682737 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that’s where the challenge lies!
< 1696612365 734386 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe not the hardest though
< 1696612445 975051 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ithkuil 3 should be simpler than Өłð Ɨṱħķüįɫ
< 1696612470 982128 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(which should not be mentioned by its true name either)
< 1696612496 368023 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Are there digraphs in New Ithkuil (2023)
< 1696612498 187815 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :?
< 1696612539 134954 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Europe2048: don’t know, sorry
< 1696612594 926573 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I found out that no.
< 1696612708 794334 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyways, do you mean to make an Ithkuil language?
< 1696614082 51319 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Europe2048: using valid Ithkuil grammar but endowing it with computational semantics, hopefully somehow related to what the original constructs mean
< 1696614139 112665 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :"valid Ithkuil grammar" How the heck would I do that?
> 1696614472 626040 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rotary14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117534&oldid=43218 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+1380) 10Add examples and category, link to interpreter
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< 1696617289 371822 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.149.238.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1696617500 271770 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
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< 1696617588 614728 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
> 1696622423 355967 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bukkake14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117535&oldid=46434 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+187) 10Categories
> 1696622435 609962 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bukkake14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117536&oldid=117535 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+1) 10/* Further reading */ Category
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< 1696624449 993025 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Should it be based on conlangs or something?" => I would say no, there are already too many of those
< 1696624474 659646 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi b_jonas!
< 1696624491 618276 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Should I make an IPA esolang? If yes, would it be cell-based or stack-based?
< 1696624665 605116 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, but probably only if you're at least drinking age
< 1696624691 273491 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm 9...
< 1696624701 221848 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I can pronounce many IPA sounds.
< 1696624826 595172 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :do not brew ale if you are younger than drinking age. it could get you into trouble.
< 1696624867 861330 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :"brew ale" What's ale?
< 1696624909 235686 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ale is alcoholic drink with low alcohol content, provided it's not brewed from grapes (because then it's called wine) or cereal (because then it's called beer instead)
< 1696624932 221202 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Don't you know that IPA is International Phonetic Alphabet?
< 1696624947 966624 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or honey (because then it's called mead instead). English is weird, why do you need so many names for spirits?
< 1696624958 48681 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Europe2048: no, IPA is a type of ales
< 1696624988 342271 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's your opinion.
< 1696625006 774806 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, IPA for International Phonetic Alphabet is more widely used.
< 1696625020 424964 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I meant this definition when I said "I can pronounce many IPA sounds.".
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< 1696626313 613453 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696628330 613607 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1696628336 880462 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi everyone!
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< 1696629709 440999 :sam!~sam@lullcec.org JOIN #esolangs * :sam
< 1696629770 281765 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving
> 1696630685 601040 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03MagmaMcFry 5*  10New user account
> 1696630908 540872 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117537&oldid=117401 5* 03MagmaMcFry 5* (+130) 10o/
< 1696630949 903167 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1696631001 82192 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117538&oldid=117537 5* 03MagmaMcFry 5* (+69) 10uh i copied the nowiki tags by accident
< 1696632611 272132 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1696635921 880383 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
< 1696636669 965814 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Quit: Go back to your cringe 9 to 5. I'll be gaming.
< 1696636879 331489 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
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< 1696639820 833778 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1696639835 278577 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1696639900 419230 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1696645934 425633 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
< 1696649503 295920 :Wryl-o-the-wisp!sid553797@user/wryl JOIN #esolangs Wryl :Wryl
< 1696655171 387407 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
> 1696660451 977413 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BFInfinity14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117539&oldid=117147 5* 03   5* (+1476) 10/* Commands */
> 1696661660 975121 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BFInfinity14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117540&oldid=117539 5* 03   5* (+92) 10/* Commands */
< 1696663157 623604 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1696663162 582091 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi everyone!
< 1696663335 798114 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1696663451 754276 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
< 1696665455 615137 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696665640 426989 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :GitHub has recently begun getting on my nerves in a serious way.  I'm very seriously considering moving to Codeberg.
< 1696666357 326832 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, anything in particular? (He asks after creating a cosmetic filter for the dashboard to hide the "explore repositories" noise.)
< 1696666447 668286 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess my real question is whether this is about the constant UI changes or about stuff like Copilot.
< 1696667820 465934 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
< 1696667832 674172 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1696667852 482597 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1696668074 601529 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PricK14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117541&oldid=115613 5* 03Olus2000 5* (-24) 10Corrected example definitions
< 1696668078 890303 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1696668344 170565 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: They radically changed how their feed works.  It is now far more geared towards self-promotion and far less geared to finding out about interesting niche projects through the grapevine.  Or as one commentator put it, "It's turning into LinkedIn".
< 1696668362 138644 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which should be no surprise given that it's owned by the same entity that owns LinkedIn
< 1696668379 595968 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see. I never used the feed, though its existence bothers me slightly because that's where I sometimes end up when I log in.
< 1696668411 945873 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Usually I just have a link to an issue or a repo so I don't see it at all.)
< 1696668446 666813 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But eh, it's a good enough reason to switch in my book. I'm just too lazy.
< 1696668545 301545 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
< 1696668550 506587 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1696668668 236277 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, it's not just the feed change per se, it's also their attitude in making the change, and all the little annoying things that have been added in recent years.
< 1696668694 178353 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :When MSFT bought them I decided to not leave immediately, but to give them a chance.  Well, they've had their chance.
< 1696669072 475877 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi cpressey!
< 1696669408 579075 :sam!~sam@lullcec.org QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1696669745 483268 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi Europe2048
< 1696669781 721574 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :How are you?
< 1696669820 360303 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Of course there's another dimension here: git is a distributed VCS, and insofar as my stuff is open-source I can't actually *stop* it showing up on GitHub.  But I can, like, stop linking to the instance of my stuff that's on there at least.
< 1696669924 986606 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Europe2048: "I'm fine", how are you?
< 1696669948 183676 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good!
< 1696670217 373936 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm designing a language, or rather I'm implementing a language but changing a few things here and there, it's not an esolang, there are reasons that I'm doing this and I imagine they're good ones but who can say, really?
> 1696670520 308285 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BFInfinity14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117542&oldid=117540 5* 03None1 5* (+564) 10/* Commands */
> 1696670773 231473 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BFInfinity14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117543&oldid=117542 5* 03None1 5* (+203) 10/* Commands */  Add the  (U+2212) command
> 1696671040 201372 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BFInfinity14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117544&oldid=117543 5* 03None1 5* (+261) 10/* Commands */  Add self-modifying command
> 1696671063 927342 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BFInfinity14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117545&oldid=117544 5* 03None1 5* (+28) 10/* See also */
> 1696671797 889103 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BFInfinity14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117546&oldid=117545 5* 03None1 5* (+33) 10/* Examples */
> 1696671860 41328 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BFInfinity14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117547&oldid=117546 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* Commands */  minor mistake by others
> 1696672326 805656 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BFInfinity14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117548&oldid=117547 5* 03None1 5* (+159) 10/* Commands */
> 1696672349 673451 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BFInfinity14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117549&oldid=117548 5* 03None1 5* (+19) 10/* Examples */
> 1696672404 230318 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BFInfinity14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117550&oldid=117549 5* 03None1 5* (-2) 10/* Infinite loop */
> 1696672497 281524 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BFInfinity14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117551&oldid=117550 5* 03None1 5* (-17) 10/* Examples */
> 1696672535 356146 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BFInfinity14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117552&oldid=117551 5* 03None1 5* (-68) 10/* Commands */
> 1696672857 754926 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Prime numbers generator14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117553&oldid=117312 5* 03None1 5* (+283) 10
> 1696672876 511782 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Prime numbers generator14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117554&oldid=117553 5* 03None1 5* (+2) 10
> 1696673956 395345 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/ToDo14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117555&oldid=117373 5* 03None1 5* (+76) 10/* Content */
> 1696674472 234284 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck Powershell interpreter14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117556 5* 03None1 5* (+1571) 10Created page with ":{{Back|brainfuck}} {{lowercase}} The following is a Powershell implementation of [[brainfuck]] by [[User:None1]], the first line is the program, and the rest are the input. EOF returns 0. <pre> $code=Read-Host function getchar(){     return [Syst
> 1696674526 910410 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117557&oldid=117524 5* 03None1 5* (+39) 10/* My Articles */
> 1696674549 817103 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117558&oldid=117557 5* 03None1 5* (+13) 10/* My Implementations */
> 1696674602 616503 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117559&oldid=117051 5* 03None1 5* (+105) 10/* Python interpreters */  Added Powershell interpreter
> 1696674723 986293 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/ToDo14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117560&oldid=117555 5* 03None1 5* (+1) 10/* Content */
< 1696675102 16850 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
> 1696675168 275372 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BFInfinity14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117561&oldid=117552 5* 03None1 5* (+151) 10/* Commands */
> 1696675180 856537 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BFInfinity14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117562&oldid=117561 5* 03None1 5* (-3) 10/* Commands */
> 1696675275 889274 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BFInfinity14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117563&oldid=117562 5* 03None1 5* (-21) 10/* Implementations */  An empty section is unnecesaary
< 1696675419 762567 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi razetime!
< 1696675546 537002 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw PRIVMSG #esolangs :evening.
> 1696676661 585178 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07,()14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117564 5* 03None1 5* (+866) 10New langauge
> 1696676691 491547 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07,()14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117565&oldid=117564 5* 03None1 5* (-2) 10
> 1696676716 94280 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07In-parens-comma14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117566 5* 03None1 5* (+17) 10Redirected page to [[(,)]]
> 1696676733 467722 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Out-parens-comma14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117567 5* 03None1 5* (+17) 10Redirected page to [[,()]]
> 1696676752 512596 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07,()14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117568&oldid=117565 5* 03None1 5* (+10) 10/* Commands */
> 1696676769 132117 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07,()14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117569&oldid=117568 5* 03None1 5* (+36) 10/* Implementation */
> 1696676889 625785 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117570&oldid=116838 5* 03None1 5* (+35) 10/* General languages */
> 1696676904 975234 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117571&oldid=117558 5* 03None1 5* (+35) 10/* My Esolangs */
< 1696677030 806139 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi *
> 1696677119 290719 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Programming abillities of different esolangs14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117572&oldid=114850 5* 03None1 5* (+300) 10/* W */
< 1696677808 86366 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1696678822 986653 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wsad14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117573&oldid=117530 5* 03None1 5* (+46) 10/* Examples */
> 1696679013 511558 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wsad14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117574&oldid=117573 5* 03None1 5* (+221) 10
> 1696679035 996326 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wsad14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117575&oldid=117574 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* Interpreter */  Change category
< 1696679341 984688 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1696679439 982532 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
< 1696681816 366058 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good afternoon in UTC+3, razetime!
< 1696681857 967687 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Can you give me some ideas for making yet another IPA esolang?
< 1696682102 129599 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie
< 1696682965 109937 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1696685052 262679 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1696687596 453936 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
< 1696688541 349408 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1696688902 698839 :raz3time!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
< 1696689194 241859 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi raz3time!
< 1696689364 80833 :raz3time!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1696689751 377454 :raz3time!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
< 1696689759 897570 :raz3time!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Client Quit
< 1696689776 387855 :raz3time!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
< 1696691196 46687 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :heck. I hope by "UTC+3" you meant Finland, not Israel
< 1696691630 124002 :raz3time!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Quit: Go back to your cringe 9 to 5. I'll be gaming.
< 1696695408 397415 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
< 1696695572 398291 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi __monty(mole)__!
< 1696695741 613209 :Beakbonk!~Beakbonk@2001:550:9801:67a4:e7d0:591b:2800:8f68 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Beakbonk
< 1696696290 302567 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.213.254.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1696696733 614468 :Beakbonk!~Beakbonk@2001:550:9801:67a4:e7d0:591b:2800:8f68 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
> 1696697071 101161 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Number2D14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117576&oldid=93278 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+39) 10Category
< 1696697870 147405 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi humans!
< 1696697883 946040 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :"heck. I hope by "UTC+3" you meant Finland, not Israel" I meant Ukraine.
< 1696697902 244435 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, I'm making an IPA esolang right now.
< 1696702208 616188 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
> 1696702402 312618 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Squib 5*  10New user account
< 1696702442 776061 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ŋ͜θʷː
< 1696702501 178486 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Quit: gone too far
< 1696703304 728444 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1696703803 691749 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: What language are you implementing and what changing?
< 1696704391 838817 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)
< 1696704595 617179 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1696704603 929775 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Humans?
< 1696705147 619343 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
> 1696705834 908036 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IPALang14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117577 5* 03Europe2048 5* (+6415) 10Initial release.
> 1696705969 819038 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IPALang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117578&oldid=117577 5* 03Europe2048 5* (-416) 10Bug fixing.
< 1696706683 614986 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1696706709 618672 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696706876 835378 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: I'm making a language where the syntax is distinctly inspired by Scheme and the semantics is distinctly inspired by Scheme.  But it's not Scheme.  ...That's how I've decided to describe what I'm doing.
< 1696706896 100036 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-176.as13285.net QUIT :Client Quit
< 1696707489 337126 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1696707536 613821 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-8-121.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696707590 97686 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-8-121.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :It is intentionally missing a lot of things, including mutable cons cells, tail recursion, the numeric tower, vectors...
< 1696707613 298249 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.213.254.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl QUIT :
< 1696707891 973934 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-8-121.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)
< 1696708010 29542 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi cpressey, I made yet another International Phonetic Alphabet esolang.
< 1696708088 615648 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-8-121.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696708123 507835 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-8-121.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Europe2048: yeah I see you called it IPALang
< 1696708151 806960 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1696708611 436688 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: funny, I already have a language whose syntax and semantics is distinctly inspired by Scheme but it's not Scheme
< 1696708659 194868 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-8-121.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Did you implement it, and if so, in what language and was it a compiler or an interpreter?
< 1696708858 441997 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de JOIN #esolangs * :rodgort
> 1696709258 610886 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IPALang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117579&oldid=117578 5* 03Europe2048 5* (-118) 10The NOP messages are all the same now.
< 1696709258 614466 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-8-121.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1696709356 64252 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Did you implement it, and if so, in what language and was it a compiler or an interpreter?" No one implemented it yet.
< 1696709524 627107 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: yes, see https://esolangs.org/wiki/Olvashat%C3%B3
< 1696709729 975704 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and you could say that the syntax is more similar to common lisp than scheme in that the head and the arguments of a function call has different syntax
> 1696712220 458506 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Infinitehexagon14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117580 5* 03Europe2048 5* (+206) 10Created page with "== You got mail! == This is a turing-complete language, based on the International Phonetic Alphabet: [[IPALang]] --~~~~"
> 1696714626 862897 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainbits14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117581 5* 03Yb1 5* (+859) 10My esolang, created a page
< 1696715234 441661 :sam!~sam@lullcec.org JOIN #esolangs * :sam
< 1696715234 486775 :sam!~sam@lullcec.org QUIT :Client Quit
< 1696715293 975722 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1696715428 100956 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yb114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117582&oldid=110561 5* 03Yb1 5* (+150) 10
< 1696717620 19108 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1696718697 715396 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wsad14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117583&oldid=117575 5* 03None1 5* (+44) 10/* Interpreter */
> 1696718952 530228 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wsad14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117584&oldid=117583 5* 03None1 5* (+22) 10/* Interpreter */
> 1696721517 174377 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Counting14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117585&oldid=117463 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+93) 10Amended the orthography, relocated the preamble into the newly introduced Concept, and subsumed all extant program into a dedicated examples section.
< 1696726200 926236 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1696726323 696074 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1696739227 79169 :sprout!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-1-a8f4-d9c9-588-489b.fixed6.kpn.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1696740632 433760 :sprout!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-1-10d7-1be2-c567-aacf.fixed6.kpn.net JOIN #esolangs * :sprout
< 1696740900 453890 :sprout!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-1-10d7-1be2-c567-aacf.fixed6.kpn.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1696741072 424593 :sprout!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-1-9c41-b620-905a-f91e.fixed6.kpn.net JOIN #esolangs sprout :sprout
< 1696741191 681176 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
< 1696741356 390825 :sprout!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-1-9c41-b620-905a-f91e.fixed6.kpn.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1696741380 950018 :sprout!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-1-8d9e-6249-b62e-5aca.fixed6.kpn.net JOIN #esolangs * :sprout
< 1696742259 828807 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is there such thing as zoned spreadsheet where the grid is split into named zones (which may have their own properties)? I think that it is better than problem with most spreadsheets when you try to deal with adding and deleting cells it is messy.
> 1696744056 221554 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IPALang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117586&oldid=117579 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+77) 10Categories
> 1696744478 752448 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Arithmetic while14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117587&oldid=45350 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+50) 10Link, category
< 1696745066 605427 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1696745381 426957 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
< 1696745945 382519 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1696746015 410878 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
< 1696748075 258771 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1696748559 416147 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
< 1696751366 614305 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-9-134.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696751880 613227 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
> 1696751946 405806 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Europe204814]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117588&oldid=117400 5* 03Europe2048 5* (+65) 10
> 1696751965 360669 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Europe204814]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117589&oldid=117588 5* 03Europe2048 5* (+1) 10
< 1696752581 543487 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1696753757 646082 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-9-134.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Ah, yes, I think I remember reading the Olvashato article once before.  I'm also hoping to eventually compile to multiple targets.
< 1696754449 301088 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-9-134.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm trying to keep the Scheme parts relatively close to Scheme, but compatible with the targets.
< 1696754550 518100 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-9-134.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :One thing I'm running up against is that the targets have module systems where Scheme has... what it has.
< 1696754631 76065 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-9-134.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :SRFIs remind me of Befunge-98 fingerprints a bit
< 1696754743 602747 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1696755800 381977 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
> 1696757289 266924 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BFInfinity14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117590&oldid=117563 5* 03None1 5* (+37) 10/* Commands */
< 1696757324 517292 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-9-134.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :One reason I mention it here, is because I'm planning to implement some esolangs in it when it's done.
< 1696757334 909297 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are 3d spreadsheet tools for the terminal, which do have some value, but i never got into those
< 1696757969 877083 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1696758031 611871 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
> 1696760132 519147 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainbits14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117591&oldid=117581 5* 03None1 5* (+38) 10Add Truth Machine (probably correct)
> 1696760168 908856 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainbits14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117592&oldid=117591 5* 03None1 5* (+5) 10/* Truth Machine */
> 1696760398 232583 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117593&oldid=117468 5* 03None1 5* (+39) 10/* Brace For Impact */  Add [[Brainbits]]
> 1696760526 929095 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-Z)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117594&oldid=117264 5* 03None1 5* (+227) 10/* WooYeah */  Add [[wsad]]
> 1696760602 205422 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117595&oldid=117593 5* 03None1 5* (+28) 10/* Wierd Machine */
< 1696760781 623426 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1696761192 823359 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117596&oldid=117512 5* 03None1 5* (-24) 10/* Truth machine */  Modify external link to Esolang to an internal link
< 1696761947 429028 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-9-134.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1696762131 364720 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IPALang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117597&oldid=117586 5* 03Europe2048 5* (+0) 10
< 1696762280 566834 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
> 1696762500 84849 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainbits14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117598&oldid=117592 5* 03None1 5* (+3) 10/* Examples */
> 1696762550 327962 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117599&oldid=117595 5* 03None1 5* (+3) 10/* Brainbits */  Fix the program on this page, too
> 1696764253 634249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117600&oldid=117527 5* 03None1 5* (+643) 10
> 1696764327 982936 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117601&oldid=117600 5* 03None1 5* (+148) 10/* Comments */
> 1696764489 631817 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117602&oldid=117601 5* 03None1 5* (+157) 10
> 1696764933 224597 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117603&oldid=117438 5* 03GUAqwq 5* (+19) 10/* but only one line */
> 1696765095 855538 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07A+B Problem14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117604&oldid=116316 5* 03None1 5* (+252) 10/* Gofe */  Add Headache
> 1696765102 865577 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117605&oldid=117603 5* 03GUAqwq 5* (+105) 10/*  */
> 1696765203 96860 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07A+B Problem14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117606&oldid=117604 5* 03None1 5* (+257) 10/* Implementations */
> 1696765358 597363 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117607&oldid=117605 5* 03GUAqwq 5* (+14) 10/* Recursion */
> 1696765689 670439 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117608&oldid=117607 5* 03None1 5* (+89) 10/* Recursion */
> 1696766077 40524 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117609&oldid=115909 5* 03None1 5* (+362) 10/* Is Category:Unimplemented really neccessarry? */ new section
< 1696766492 175362 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie
> 1696766686 134330 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117610&oldid=117608 5* 03None1 5* (+35) 10/*  */
< 1696773575 385634 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
> 1696774643 784318 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Kwon-Young 5*  10New user account
< 1696775037 613474 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-9-134.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696775341 710491 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-9-134.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)
< 1696775789 569948 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
> 1696776685 421964 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117611&oldid=117538 5* 03Kwon-Young 5* (+228) 10
> 1696778092 402942 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117612&oldid=117496 5* 03Kwon-Young 5* (+926) 10prolog implementation of the deadfish interpreter
< 1696778296 39174 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
< 1696780699 315254 :Thelie!~Thelie@185.66.193.30 JOIN #esolangs * :Thelie
< 1696782367 317299 :Thelie!~Thelie@185.66.193.30 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
> 1696782586 119134 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NONE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117613&oldid=117216 5* 03Jaip 5* (+69) 10
> 1696782607 886817 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NONE14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117614&oldid=117613 5* 03Jaip 5* (+0) 10
> 1696782624 695370 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NONE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117615&oldid=117614 5* 03Jaip 5* (+1) 10/* Weblinks */
> 1696782781 257946 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NONE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117616&oldid=117615 5* 03Jaip 5* (+64) 10/* Weblinks */
< 1696782870 139725 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Quit: Go back to your cringe 9 to 5. I'll be gaming.
< 1696783146 155939 :Thelie!~Thelie@2001:4c80:40:2040:f8b8:d85a:3ca9:ba9b JOIN #esolangs * :Thelie
> 1696783914 129097 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Do loop until failure or condition else14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117617&oldid=45349 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+24) 10Category
> 1696783950 738449 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Do loop until failure14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117618&oldid=71448 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+24) 10Category
< 1696784389 620773 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-9-134.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696784758 628094 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-9-134.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1696784878 106453 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.149.238.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1696785127 569882 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1696787606 520120 :Koen!~Koen@78.199.192.3 JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
< 1696788213 613039 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-9-134.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696790374 878604 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.149.238.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Quit: gone too far
< 1696790579 605343 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1696792234 557688 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1696793128 279886 :Thelie!~Thelie@2001:4c80:40:2040:f8b8:d85a:3ca9:ba9b QUIT :Quit: Leaving.
< 1696794628 922038 :Koen!~Koen@78.199.192.3 QUIT :Quit: Leaving...
< 1696796987 108200 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1696798466 494240 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lananang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117619&oldid=116654 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+68) 10Categories
< 1696800983 157729 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1696801009 802426 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1696801758 310081 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't mean 3D. An example of how I mean is, if the zone grid has two rows named X and TX and two columns named Y and TY, then the zone grid contains four zones named X:Y, X:TY, TX:Y, and TX:TY. Let's say X has five data rows, TX has one data row, Y has six data columns, and TY has one data column. Then the zone X:Y has thirty data cells, X:TY has five data cells, etc.
< 1696801854 618800 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :And then, if the X:TY zone cell contains the calculation "SUM(:X)" then it will contain the totals of each row in the X:Y zone. (Data cells can also contain calculations, but if a zone cell does then the data cells are only by the zones.) (You would use this instead of "A1" and "R1C1" references.)
< 1696802276 775866 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
> 1696806492 874121 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Meow14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117620&oldid=88002 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+72) 10/* Factorial */ Categories
> 1696806537 329421 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Do-if14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117621&oldid=87785 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+33) 10Stub, category
< 1696812058 613628 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-9-134.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1696812651 637162 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1696812658 432729 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1696812739 752788 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1696817802 854136 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EVM14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117622&oldid=54045 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+174) 10External resources, categories
> 1696817838 648994 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EVM14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117623&oldid=117622 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+25) 10Category
> 1696818151 257067 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Baltdev 5*  10New user account
> 1696818244 221228 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117624&oldid=117611 5* 03Baltdev 5* (+171) 10
> 1696818292 764704 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Baltdev14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117625 5* 03Baltdev 5* (+74) 10Created page with "hi!!! [https://balt.sno.mba check out my wwebed siute :<nowiki>]</nowiki>]"
< 1696819024 374319 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1696819225 441375 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1696820400 292630 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 QUIT :Quit: I seem to have stopped.
< 1696820473 406241 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org JOIN #esolangs Taneb :Nathan van Doorn
> 1696820523 139296 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lasagna14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117626 5* 03Baltdev 5* (+9940) 10Created page with "=== Note ===  This article is copied from the [https://github.com/balt-dev/Lasagna GitHub repository].  = Lasagna =  Lasagna is an esoteric programming language defined by an unsized LIFO stack (hence the name, stack) of bytes, inspired by assembly languages.   == Basic
> 1696820554 169093 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lasagna14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117627&oldid=117626 5* 03Baltdev 5* (-168) 10
< 1696831358 927347 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:983d:c0f4:628b:69a4 JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
< 1696831626 337399 :raz3time!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
< 1696831944 358758 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Apparently FTP over NCP supported non-8-bit-bytes
< 1696831953 763313 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or at least that's my takeaway from "      FTP:
< 1696831953 893675 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :         This is specified in RFC 765.  It is very similar to the FTP
< 1696831953 899561 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :         used with the NCP.  The primary differences are that in
< 1696831953 899602 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :         addition to the changes for Telnet, that the data channel is
< 1696831953 899630 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :         limited to 8-bit bytes so FTP features to use other
< 1696831954 782371 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :         transmission byte sizes are eliminated."
< 1696831957 188487 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc0801.txt
< 1696833032 649335 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1696836198 612995 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-9-134.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696836530 589023 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-9-134.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo: I see that references RFC 765 -- I just looked at https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc0765.txt and it has a few interesting things to say about "byte size".  In one place it mentions "32-bit bytes".
< 1696836580 79888 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-9-134.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Byte" was once a more flexible concept than it is today.  This also explains the prevalence of the word "octet" in some RFCs.
< 1696836682 898478 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :9 bit bytes were popular for a while too
< 1696836712 708111 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The C standard has a concept of a smallest addressable unit (tied to the size of a char), do *they* call that a byte?
< 1696836805 994478 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-9-134.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: I think I've seen a spreadsheet have a locked area of some kind inside it, so that e.g. deleting a row in that area only affected that area and not the rest of the spreadsheet.  I'm not sure if there could be more than one of these in the spreadsheet at any given time though.
< 1696836915 785999 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-9-134.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :And your idea seems to go beyond just that
< 1696837166 899437 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is there an RFC for NCP FTP?
< 1696837220 167405 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc959/2_Overview.html
< 1696837271 151872 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I should sleep
< 1696838199 425845 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1696838586 567511 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1696838592 338002 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :how did they squeeze that extra bit in? must have been very tight
< 1696838662 381185 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, computers were bigger then ;-)
< 1696838675 465491 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :hehe
< 1696838958 243415 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:983d:c0f4:628b:69a4 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1696839358 315647 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :river: they configured their RAM and peripherials to not use error correction bits, and use those as extra value bits instead.
> 1696840758 557014 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:List of quines14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117628&oldid=87216 5* 03PlaceReporter99 5* (+92) 10
> 1696841837 595975 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117629&oldid=117610 5* 03PlaceReporter99 5* (+20) 10
> 1696842116 460856 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07List of quines14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117630&oldid=115435 5* 03PlaceReporter99 5* (+176) 10/* Prelude */
> 1696842140 674739 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07List of quines14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117631&oldid=117630 5* 03PlaceReporter99 5* (+12) 10/* Python (Python 3) */
< 1696842799 825688 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
< 1696843222 925664 :raz3time!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Quit: Go back to your cringe 9 to 5. I'll be gaming.
< 1696845382 784170 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:fd4b:6a58:e354:9589 JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
< 1696847006 847810 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie
< 1696848583 824474 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Moin
> 1696848945 179352 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07List of quines14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117632&oldid=117631 5* 03None1 5* (+143) 10/* Python (Python 3) */  Added a much simpler one
< 1696851157 812655 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-9-134.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :There are constants that aren't literals, but are there literals that aren't constants?
< 1696851268 989335 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1696851492 875618 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :what about strings with interpolation in languages that allow it?
< 1696852406 154418 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :i think that you can redefine literals in python
< 1696852408 150290 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :so 0 = 3
< 1696852574 868230 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn PRIVMSG #esolangs :Only for the first 256(?) or so integers because those are cached somehow or something.
< 1696852689 599792 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :[citation needed]
> 1696852700 19276 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117633&oldid=109336 5* 03PlaceReporter99 5* (+143) 10
< 1696852724 829948 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I imagine it's not an assignment but some direct poking into memory instead)
< 1696852792 347980 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-9-134.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :You used to (in Python 2.x) be able to assign a different value to the boolean constants True and False
< 1696852846 671493 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :my brain parsed "assignment" there as in a task/exercise
< 1696852869 195566 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :which I mean, "find a way to redefine integer literals in python" might make a fun one
< 1696852871 313824 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-9-134.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :For a non-constant literal I was thinking something like NOW as in "start_time = NOW;"
< 1696852886 768751 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :__LINENO__? :p
< 1696852889 886538 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :(ok it
< 1696852892 522286 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :'s a macro)
< 1696852915 740638 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :(it's also __LINE__, but anyway)
< 1696853004 306143 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-9-134.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :"It's a macro" versus "it's a literal" is largely a matter of narrative... I think I'm going to consider __LINE__ the current reigning champion for this category
> 1696853042 783310 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Palindrome14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117634&oldid=20090 5* 03None1 5* (+112) 10
< 1696853089 252233 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think "foo ${bar}" is the most "syntactic literal but its value is dynamic" in my book
< 1696853283 328652 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1696853456 545458 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:BF+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117635&oldid=113591 5* 03None1 5* (+182) 10/* palindrome */ new section
> 1696855011 117937 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lasagna14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117636&oldid=117627 5* 03None1 5* (+23) 10
< 1696858033 618248 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-9-134.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1696858494 615822 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-5-146.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696860985 777962 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:fd4b:6a58:e354:9589 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1696861006 384744 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:10f4:3c04:8ba6:7e9a JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
< 1696861689 867853 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1696863408 772623 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainappend14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117637 5* 03Joaozin003 5* (+979) 10Created page with "'''Brainappend''' is a [[brainfuck]] derivative by [[User:Joaozin003]], partly inspired by [[Vague]] where the braces (<code>[</code> and <code>]</code>) append their contents to the source code (including themselves). This makes looping much more difficult.  == I
< 1696867508 44514 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-5-146.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1696869164 459111 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie
< 1696869432 789605 :SGautam!uid286066@id-286066.ilkley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs SGautam :Siddharth Gautam
< 1696869465 705506 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1696869928 621396 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: The way I had meant though, is that, in my example, you can delete a data row from the zone row X, in which case the zone cells X:Y and X:TY now have one less data row, without leaving any gap, and likewise you can add new rows, and this won't damage any calculations. A calculation that refers to the number of rows in a zone will still work.
< 1696869999 200459 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 JOIN #esolangs * :b_jonas
< 1696870008 791519 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :And, data cells only contain data (but may also contain calculations, although usually calculations would be put in zone cells instead); other properties (formatting, validation, view mode, etc) would be properties of the zone grid and not of data cells.
> 1696870279 531252 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03KeyScrew159 5*  10New user account
> 1696870821 113691 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lasagna14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117638&oldid=117636 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+25) 10/* Instructions */ category
> 1696870961 906529 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Woefully14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117639&oldid=52044 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+49) 10Categories
< 1696872172 693449 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:10f4:3c04:8ba6:7e9a QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1696876028 64201 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Quit: gone too far
> 1696877985 194266 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Xt14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117640 5* 03Rehydratedmango 5* (+1635) 10create
> 1696878050 255125 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117641&oldid=117522 5* 03Rehydratedmango 5* (+9) 10xt
< 1696878318 613331 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-5-146.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696878961 774087 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-5-146.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1696880400 615880 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-5-146.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
> 1696881322 583375 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainappend14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117642&oldid=117637 5* 03Joaozin003 5* (+39) 10added categories
> 1696881399 297566 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117643&oldid=117641 5* 03Joaozin003 5* (+18) 10added brainappend
> 1696881755 597730 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Joaozin00314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117644&oldid=112645 5* 03Joaozin003 5* (+47) 10added brainappend
> 1696882221 471194 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PTL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117645&oldid=110710 5* 03Joaozin003 5* (+19) 10examples section
> 1696882385 78708 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:List of ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117646&oldid=110329 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+126) 10
> 1696882901 371554 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117647&oldid=99703 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+334) 10j
> 1696882922 802467 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117648&oldid=117647 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+16) 10formatting fail
> 1696882936 869811 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117649&oldid=117648 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+4) 10formatting fail TWO!
> 1696883027 483639 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainappend14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117650&oldid=117642 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+45) 10Categories
> 1696883125 983206 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Xt14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117651&oldid=117640 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+120) 10See also, categories
> 1696883239 180463 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PLAWIHA14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117652&oldid=101532 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+24) 10Category
< 1696883415 593237 :Koen!~Koen@78.199.192.3 JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
< 1696884510 813529 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1696885481 383243 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1696886198 78307 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117653&oldid=117643 5* 03Melvin 5* (+14) 10/* J */
< 1696886200 780461 :SGautam!uid286066@id-286066.ilkley.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
> 1696887329 546908 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Jottary14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117654 5* 03Melvin 5* (+1503) 10Implemented Jottary
> 1696887451 935012 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Jottary14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117655&oldid=117654 5* 03Melvin 5* (+4) 10/* Converting Jot to Jottary */
> 1696887571 35340 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Jottary14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117656&oldid=117655 5* 03Melvin 5* (+3) 10
> 1696887762 974517 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Jot14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117657&oldid=87473 5* 03Melvin 5* (+37) 10/* Related languages */
> 1696887992 643038 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Jottary14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117658&oldid=117656 5* 03Melvin 5* (+4) 10's
> 1696889028 448850 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pairpointing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117659&oldid=117285 5* 03Fazaazafg 5* (+164) 10/* Pairs */
> 1696889378 769986 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pairpointing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117660&oldid=117659 5* 03Fazaazafg 5* (+170) 10/* Examples */
> 1696889395 46324 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pairpointing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117661&oldid=117660 5* 03Fazaazafg 5* (+2) 10/* Examples */
> 1696889412 496858 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pairpointing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117662&oldid=117661 5* 03Fazaazafg 5* (-1) 10/* Examples */
< 1696889450 734300 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1696890369 879796 :Koen!~Koen@78.199.192.3 QUIT :Quit: Leaving...
< 1696890511 456599 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1696892845 370782 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Aadenboy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117663&oldid=107971 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+97) 10
> 1696892861 78080 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Aadenboy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117664&oldid=117663 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+1) 10formatting fail
> 1696893049 669843 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Jottary14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117665&oldid=117658 5* 03Melvin 5* (+8) 10
> 1696895929 574326 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Sam137 5*  10New user account
> 1696896376 851789 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117666&oldid=117624 5* 03Sam137 5* (+109) 10
> 1696896490 327399 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Sam13714]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117667 5* 03Sam137 5* (+11) 10Created page with "Talk pages?"
> 1696897066 742546 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Sam13714]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117668 5* 03Sam137 5* (+15) 10Created page with "== User Page =="
< 1696898260 189126 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-5-146.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1696899023 823745 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-146-180-36.natnow.res.rr.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1696899097 339116 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1696899108 460483 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1696899176 867603 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1696899237 178489 :sprout_!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-7155-3a1a-b657-37ad.fixed6.kpn.net JOIN #esolangs * :sprout
< 1696899244 877819 :sprout!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-1-8d9e-6249-b62e-5aca.fixed6.kpn.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1696899925 710653 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-146-180-36.natnow.res.rr.com JOIN #esolangs joast :purple
< 1696908312 371585 :MrAureliusR!~MrAureliu@user/mraureliusr QUIT :Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1696908388 928304 :MrAureliusR!~MrAureliu@user/mraureliusr JOIN #esolangs MrAureliusR :Got ZNC?
< 1696909723 670995 :^[!~user@user//x-8473491 QUIT :Quit: ^[
< 1696910388 543927 :^[!~user@user//x-8473491 JOIN #esolangs ^[ :user
< 1696912604 549156 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1696912617 788377 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
> 1696916850 904578 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117669&oldid=102806 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+75) 10Categories
< 1696917171 127200 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
< 1696921765 613880 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1696921766 613336 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-5-146.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696921772 465913 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi everyone!
< 1696921785 402713 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Looks like cpressey joined right after me.
< 1696921863 767359 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-5-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi Europe2048
< 1696921912 477981 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know it is possible to make a 99 bottles of beer program in IPALang!
< 1696922492 513193 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-5-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm writing a wrapper script in Bourne shell and I am struck by the fact that $* throws away quoting
< 1696922541 163453 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-5-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I remember looking this up a while ago and not finding a good answer to how to retain the quoting
< 1696922680 425668 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :What's a wrapper script? What's a Bourne shell?
< 1696922709 927109 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:c5c7:1768:2a22:a901 JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
< 1696923202 489139 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: it's "$@"
< 1696923253 533220 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :with the quotes
< 1696923574 391816 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-5-146.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Thank you!  That's so much nicer than the hack I was using that looked like something out of an MS-DOS batchfile
< 1696923635 542563 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for reference, on modern Windows it's %* instead
< 1696923914 542254 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1696925661 411139 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :the special behaviour of "$@" is such a weird one
< 1696925708 277066 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :very convenient to use all the time, but also one that confused me greatly and I still don't know the precise rules I think (is it only an exact $@ inside double-quotes that expands to multiple quoted arguments?
< 1696925795 173655 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1696926445 247804 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Jottary14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117670&oldid=117665 5* 03Melvin 5* (+43) 10Unicode -> Tag sub/sup
< 1696926783 111975 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1696926892 238047 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :No, I believe for example "foo$@bar" does expand into the equivalent of "foofirst argument" "second argument" "last argumentbar". Not that I can think of a likely use case for that.
< 1696927045 361150 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` f() { echo "[$1] [$2] [$3]"; }; g() { f "foo$@bar"; }; g "first argument" "second argument" "last argument"  # just checking
< 1696927046 356585 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​[foofirst argument] [second argument] [last argumentbar]
< 1696927050 72786 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1696927318 110525 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, quoted $* (but not $@) uses IFS.
< 1696927332 57695 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` f() { IFS=":"; echo $*; echo "$*"; }; f foo bar baz  # like so
< 1696927333 102631 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :foo bar baz \ foo:bar:baz
< 1696927384 192923 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`"
< 1696927385 783754 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :1/1:1274) <Ken M> If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time :( \ 217) <oerjan> <Gregor> oerjan: Tell us what (a(b{c}d)*2e)%2 expands to <-- ababcdbcdedbabcdbcdede, i think  <Gregor> oerjan: What - the - fuck
< 1696927391 280475 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(speaking of quotes)
< 1696927457 779886 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :is 217 a bfjoust question?
< 1696928408 648433 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-5-146.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1696928516 613089 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-94.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696928577 347015 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Must be.
< 1696928783 615087 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-151-94.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1696928984 108817 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah fungot is dead as usual
< 1696929378 613751 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-28-116-63.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696929869 153140 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1696929969 730845 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` m=(black red yellow gray); printf "<%s> " "start${m[@]}end"
< 1696929971 160502 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​<startblack> <red> <yellow> <grayend>
< 1696930858 626353 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-28-116-63.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1696933199 292364 :sprout_!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-7155-3a1a-b657-37ad.fixed6.kpn.net NICK :sprout
< 1696933547 701851 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1696934532 613796 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-11-74.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
> 1696935525 744029 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Jottary14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117671&oldid=117670 5* 03Melvin 5* (+58) 10Added categories
> 1696936133 590329 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Rehydratedmango14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117672&oldid=107226 5* 03Rehydratedmango 5* (+8) 10
> 1696941811 62470 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Xt14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117673&oldid=117651 5* 03Rehydratedmango 5* (+474) 10cleaning up my mistakes, fixed some grammar and added comp. class section
< 1696942073 613077 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1696942741 674433 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1696943060 612999 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1696943064 454773 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi!
> 1696945832 265901 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117674&oldid=117629 5* 03Rehydratedmango 5* (+121) 10
> 1696945983 799100 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fish Code14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117675&oldid=115187 5* 03None1 5* (+25) 10/* Turing completeness */  Add stack-based category
< 1696948015 172196 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1696948115 167397 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1696948153 262262 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`olist 1289
< 1696948155 181661 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :olist <https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1289.html>: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
< 1696948162 158908 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.213.254.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1696948751 692472 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:c5c7:1768:2a22:a901 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1696950074 808747 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:80fa:4724:17a7:a598 JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
> 1696951665 468714 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07D14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117676&oldid=52238 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+24) 10Category
> 1696953565 75057 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Monolog14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117677&oldid=67858 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+49) 10Categories
> 1696953896 640245 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Codesine/implementation14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117678&oldid=66256 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+19) 10Back
< 1696954070 92917 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1696954212 149363 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1696954250 648827 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07HeacunQ9+14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117679&oldid=95463 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+37) 10Category
> 1696954506 831543 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Joaozin00314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117680&oldid=117644 5* 03Joaozin003 5* (+94) 10/* Other Links */
< 1696956107 901935 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-11-74.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1696957483 101070 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Joaozin00314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117681&oldid=117680 5* 03Joaozin003 5* (+0) 10proper casing
> 1696957502 892015 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainappend14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117682&oldid=117650 5* 03Joaozin003 5* (+15) 10proper casing
> 1696957509 552454 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainappend14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117683&oldid=117682 5* 03Joaozin003 5* (-1) 10
< 1696959606 454328 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1696959782 196349 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Rehydratedmango14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117684&oldid=117672 5* 03Rehydratedmango 5* (+14) 10
< 1696960507 620975 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1696960527 122970 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyone?
> 1696961007 646185 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07List of ideas14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117685&oldid=117337 5* 03Rehydratedmango 5* (+159) 10
< 1696962720 683568 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1696963504 616283 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-11-74.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1696963632 717732 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.213.254.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl QUIT :
< 1696965284 829553 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Quit: gone too far
< 1696967790 613571 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1696968327 198124 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyone?
< 1696968343 1699 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :`relcome Europe2048 
< 1696968346 593921 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​08Europe2048: 09Welcome 02to 06the 13international 04hub 07for 08esoteric 09programming 02language 06design 13and 04deployment! 07For 08more 09information, 02check 06out 13our 04wiki: 07<https://esolangs.org/>. 08(For 09the 02other 06kind 13of 04esoterica, 07try 08#esoteric 09on 02EFnet 06or 13DALnet.)
< 1696968375 809175 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :`reclome river
< 1696968376 773518 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :reclome? No such file or directory
< 1696968392 715404 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :`welcome river
< 1696968394 843203 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :river: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
< 1696968430 111416 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :thank you
< 1696968432 329956 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyways, hi River!
< 1696969058 361748 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:80fa:4724:17a7:a598 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1696970940 817895 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyone?
< 1696970943 356055 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyone?
> 1696971337 424674 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Joaozin00314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117686&oldid=117681 5* 03Joaozin003 5* (+0) 10alphabetical order
< 1696972407 307960 :Wryl-o-the-wisp!sid553797@user/wryl QUIT :
< 1696972844 593029 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1696973994 395914 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-11-74.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1696974625 735797 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NOPQRST14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117687 5* 03LEOMOK 5* (+1434) 10Created page with "NOPQRST is a programming language designed to do nothing. It is a push-down automaton.  == Instructions ==  NOPQRST operates on an unbounded stack of values.  As the name of the programming language says, NOPQRST only uses the letters N, O, P, Q, R, S and T.   There are 
< 1696975324 39548 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1696977232 930314 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IPALang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117688&oldid=117597 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+49) 10
> 1696977932 832571 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Infinitehexagon14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117689&oldid=117484 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+37) 10
> 1696978076 871736 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SDOTOS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117690&oldid=116103 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (-40) 10
< 1696978522 808295 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1696978729 699891 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07X strike14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117691 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+427) 10Created page with "'''X strike''' is an esolang created by [[User:Infinitehexagon]]. It has 4 commands and a keyword.  ==Commands== {| class="wikitable" |- ! Command !! Description |- | X! || increment the cell under the memory pointer by 1 and shift the memory pointer right |- | 
> 1696978780 988837 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07X strike14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117692&oldid=117691 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+39) 10
> 1696978805 669283 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07X strike14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117693&oldid=117692 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+14) 10
> 1696978817 694005 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07X strike14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117694&oldid=117693 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+9) 10
> 1696978827 515698 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07X strike14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117695&oldid=117694 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+0) 10
> 1696978988 643902 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07X strike14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117696&oldid=117695 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+6) 10
> 1696979310 720587 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07X strike14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117697&oldid=117696 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+108) 10
> 1696979707 971746 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07X strike14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117698&oldid=117697 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (-21) 10
> 1696980230 281330 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07X strike14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117699&oldid=117698 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+149) 10
> 1696980382 735322 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07X strike14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117700&oldid=117699 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+37) 10
> 1696980679 810006 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07X strike14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117701&oldid=117700 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+18) 10
< 1696980975 126914 :sprout!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-7155-3a1a-b657-37ad.fixed6.kpn.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1696982160 475965 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1696984857 901546 :sprout!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-7155-3a1a-b657-37ad.fixed6.kpn.net JOIN #esolangs sprout :sprout
< 1696985495 290530 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1696985559 191529 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1696987685 914698 :Wryl-o-the-wisp!sid553797@user/wryl JOIN #esolangs Wryl :Wryl
> 1696989264 276531 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Gus-caribe 5*  10New user account
> 1696989698 157938 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117702&oldid=117666 5* 03Gus-caribe 5* (+178) 10/* Introductions */
> 1696989789 541587 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117703&oldid=117702 5* 03Gus-caribe 5* (+11) 10/* Introductions */
< 1696991213 374794 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-232.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
> 1696991399 268882 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Notaprotago 5*  10New user account
< 1696992652 271595 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-232.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN #esolangs Melvar :melvar
< 1696993891 206484 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
< 1696994148 391842 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1696996748 878173 :sprout!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-7155-3a1a-b657-37ad.fixed6.kpn.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
> 1696999126 269691 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Smaller14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117704&oldid=68245 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+43) 10See also
> 1696999174 959485 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117705&oldid=75883 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+50) 10See also
> 1696999906 446645 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LMCode14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117706&oldid=58127 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+96) 10Categories
< 1697000502 960528 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
< 1697004694 686499 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1697008586 625941 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Peter01 5*  10New user account
< 1697008741 618449 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1697008780 128736 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi everyone!
> 1697009044 459621 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117707&oldid=117703 5* 03Peter01 5* (+118) 10/* Introductions */
> 1697009062 99521 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117708&oldid=117653 5* 03Peter01 5* (-20) 10/* H */  Remove unnecessary boldness and extra empty lines
< 1697009348 665793 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.172 QUIT :Quit: leaving
> 1697009903 209657 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Peter0114]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117709 5* 03Peter01 5* (+22) 10Created page with "Totally not a spambot."
< 1697010050 802608 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1697010974 194865 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1697011277 648727 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1697013206 613636 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-11-74.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1697013523 30140 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1697014155 381275 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117710&oldid=115861 5* 03PlaceReporter99 5* (+10) 10
> 1697014381 703179 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Peter0114]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117711 5* 03PlaceReporter99 5* (+150) 10Created page with "Yes I know youre not a spambot. ~~~~"
> 1697014505 965897 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117712&oldid=117708 5* 03PlaceReporter99 5* (+20) 10Not your language, not your job.
< 1697014961 403036 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1697015154 450507 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1697015604 287174 :sam__!~sam@lullcec.org JOIN #esolangs * :sam
< 1697015627 869585 :sam__!~sam@lullcec.org NICK :Guest219
< 1697016661 808656 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
> 1697017253 369209 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117713&oldid=114938 5* 03GUAqwq 5* (+149) 10
< 1697017613 808524 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:80fa:4724:17a7:a598 JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
< 1697017636 955869 :Koen_!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:e9c5:26d6:9578:ba06 JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
< 1697017786 640351 :sprout!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-9094-d918-6e42-f5dc.fixed6.kpn.net JOIN #esolangs sprout :sprout
< 1697017887 810687 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:80fa:4724:17a7:a598 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1697018986 596594 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-11-74.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :One sure sign of novice programmers is that they have a hard time seeing that boolean expressions evaluate to booleans so they write code like "if a and b and c then return true else return false"
< 1697019035 944887 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-11-74.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :But then, in languages with truthiness, if you look at that code you can't be too sure it wasn't an experienced programmer ensuring the type is Actually A Boolean to meet some obscure requirement somewhere else in the code
< 1697019148 955321 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1697019574 154575 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1697019656 839502 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
< 1697019890 247473 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: yes, I see that sometimes. I take it as a sign of a non-programmer who writes programs, rather than novice programmers, but maybe I'm wrong. funnily there are some programming languages that actually push you to this. Notably Olvashato gives a warning if you try to store a boolean in a variable or a function parameter or function return
< 1697019890 748035 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :value. I believe it still compiles the code correctly, but the prolog code gets ugly because it always reifies the boolean to a term even in cases when a function returns a boolean, in which case you could normally represent the return value as success or failure.
< 1697020016 786855 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1697020334 543899 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the other notable language that does this is SQL: as far as I understand, tables (or views) can't have boolean columns, so you'll always have a comparison in a where expression
< 1697021331 573104 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-11-74.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1697021670 613665 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-11-74.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1697022887 638442 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1697023115 466659 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
< 1697024191 634034 :sprout!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-9094-d918-6e42-f5dc.fixed6.kpn.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1697024299 288786 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07M?!14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117714&oldid=89540 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+23) 10Category
< 1697026214 272684 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie
< 1697026466 447366 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1697026558 877441 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainappend14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117715&oldid=117683 5* 03Joaozin003 5* (+4) 10better description
> 1697030862 997163 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07X strike14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117716&oldid=117701 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+182) 10
> 1697031046 229774 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TXt14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117717 5* 03Rehydratedmango 5* (+1212) 10Created page with "{{lowercase}} tXt is every [[brainf**k]] derivative, on account of it being a derivative of [[Xt]].  == Syntax == A tXt source code file (.txt) is structured similarly to Xt, with a set of [[TrivialBrainfuckSubstitution]]s defined by a set of eight characters:  ><+-
> 1697031279 210798 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117718&oldid=117713 5* 03None1 5* (+182) 10/* Is there any compilers/interpreters for useful luaguages made by brainfuck? */
> 1697031300 825270 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Rehydratedmango14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117719&oldid=117684 5* 03Rehydratedmango 5* (+12) 10
< 1697031414 370315 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-11-74.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1697031866 613669 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1697031895 545024 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyone?
< 1697032180 443025 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1697032265 278007 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
< 1697033021 478503 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi __monty__!
< 1697033030 381131 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :`eelcome __monty__
< 1697033032 715883 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :eelcome? No such file or directory
< 1697033051 813106 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :`relcome __monty__
< 1697033054 688674 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​09__monty__: 02Welcome 06to 13the 04international 07hub 08for 09esoteric 02programming 06language 13design 04and 07deployment! 08For 09more 02information, 06check 13out 04our 07wiki: 08<https://esolangs.org/>. 09(For 02the 06other 13kind 04of 07esoterica, 08try 09#esoteric 02on 06EFnet 13or 04DALnet.)
< 1697033242 348420 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :@tell cpressey if a == true ...
< 1697033242 409068 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :Consider it noted.
< 1697033520 249482 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :@tell lambdabot test
< 1697033520 297883 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :Nice try ;)
< 1697033539 743134 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :@tell HackEso test
< 1697033539 796790 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :Consider it noted.
< 1697033545 24238 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :?!
< 1697033545 86393 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe you meant: v @ ? .
< 1697033559 973017 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :@help
< 1697033560 26005 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
< 1697033566 161042 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :@list
< 1697033566 271584 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :What module?  Try @listmodules for some ideas.
< 1697033570 521712 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :@listmodules
< 1697033570 569402 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search
< 1697033570 581650 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :seen slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
< 1697033579 186537 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :list
< 1697033596 39149 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :@list commands
< 1697033596 86746 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :No module "commands" loaded
< 1697033624 280041 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :'list'
< 1697033632 629169 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :@list
< 1697033632 678079 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :What module?  Try @listmodules for some ideas.
< 1697033636 267723 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :@list command
< 1697033636 313999 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :No module "command" loaded
< 1697033639 361664 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :@list cmd
< 1697033639 409102 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :No module "cmd" loaded
< 1697033642 893705 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :@listmodules
< 1697033642 951756 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search
< 1697033642 964686 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :seen slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
< 1697033651 790390 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :@list bf
< 1697033651 844955 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :bf provides: bf
< 1697033660 52541 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :@list activity
< 1697033660 118224 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :activity provides: activity
< 1697033680 388834 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :@list help
< 1697033680 436709 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :help provides: help
< 1697034380 408847 :sprout!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-9094-d918-6e42-f5dc.fixed6.kpn.net JOIN #esolangs sprout :sprout
< 1697034754 315159 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1697035723 393295 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hebe Script14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117720&oldid=25115 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-7) 10Stub, formatting
> 1697035976 717741 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Idego14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117721&oldid=97528 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+49) 10Categories
< 1697036114 135010 :Franciman!~Franciman@mx1.fracta.dev JOIN #esolangs Franciman :Franciman
< 1697036334 614705 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-11-74.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
> 1697037757 986572 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03EvyLah 5*  10New user account
> 1697038332 738404 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Infinitehexagon14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117722&oldid=117689 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+21) 10/* My Esolangs (chronological order) */
> 1697038419 572275 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07X strike14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117723&oldid=117716 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+40) 10
> 1697038434 238334 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07X strike14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117724&oldid=117723 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+6) 10
< 1697038478 557036 :sprout_!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-d10c-c6a1-ba7-bf2e.fixed6.kpn.net JOIN #esolangs * :sprout
> 1697038565 167149 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07X strike14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117725&oldid=117724 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+58) 10
> 1697038574 549773 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07X strike14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117726&oldid=117725 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+6) 10/* User:XKCD Random Number */
> 1697038652 124223 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07X strike14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117727&oldid=117726 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (-5) 10/* User:XKCD Random Number */
< 1697038668 398050 :sprout!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-9094-d918-6e42-f5dc.fixed6.kpn.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
> 1697038672 62562 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07X strike14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117728&oldid=117727 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+24) 10/* XKCD Random Number */
> 1697038757 311469 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SDOTOS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117729&oldid=117690 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+20) 10
> 1697038767 787997 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SDOTOS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117730&oldid=117729 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (-2) 10/* blank / null character */
> 1697038779 827965 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SDOTOS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117731&oldid=117730 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (-1) 10/* blank / null character */
> 1697038937 176996 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SDOTOS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117732&oldid=117731 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+0) 10/* 99 bottles of beer / 99 bottles of beer on the wall */
> 1697039125 116457 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07X strike14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117733&oldid=117728 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+10) 10/* Cat program */
> 1697039301 500500 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07X strike14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117734&oldid=117733 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+54) 10
> 1697040185 484808 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EsoLogic14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117735&oldid=45446 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+23) 10Category
> 1697040475 897076 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TRANSCRIPT14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117736&oldid=30814 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+28) 10Category
> 1697040959 219862 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5*  10New user account
> 1697041326 110697 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117737&oldid=117707 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+29) 10
< 1697041375 897238 :Guest219!~sam@lullcec.org QUIT :Quit: leaving
> 1697041433 190362 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117738&oldid=117737 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+100) 10
> 1697041634 986932 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PaxtonPenguin14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117739 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+63) 10Created page with "Hi, Visit my site [http://PaxtonPenguin.com Click Here to Win!]"
> 1697041681 615035 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PaxtonPenguin14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117740 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+106) 10Created page with "--~~~~Peep"
< 1697042157 318988 :sprout!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-18d0-f616-1d13-4449.fixed6.kpn.net JOIN #esolangs sprout :sprout
< 1697042244 690061 :Koen_!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:e9c5:26d6:9578:ba06 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1697042354 511224 :sprout_!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-d10c-c6a1-ba7-bf2e.fixed6.kpn.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
> 1697042566 773453 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:C+.jpg10]]"
> 1697042584 241655 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117742&oldid=117674 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+34) 10
< 1697042644 791481 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-11-74.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1697043271 613327 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-11-74.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1697044190 351388 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-11-74.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1697044241 622322 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-11-74.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
> 1697044856 506742 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Barrous14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117743 5* 03Abyxlrz 5* (+3194) 10Created page with "Barrous is an improvement on [[Modulous]] inspired by [[APL]] made by [[User:Abyxlrz|Abyxlrz]]. It is a 1D stack based esoteric programming language with variables.  =Non-commands=  ^ can be used in place of a value to refer to the top of the stack.  Variables may be de
< 1697045489 147743 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 JOIN #esolangs * :b_jonas
> 1697045534 523564 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03User43215 5*  10New user account
< 1697046844 574382 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1697047015 888208 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-11-74.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1697048263 614462 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-11-74.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
> 1697048280 638076 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Abyxlrz14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117744&oldid=82981 5* 03Abyxlrz 5* (+43) 10
< 1697048343 334639 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1697049043 614614 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a JOIN #esolangs * :Thelie
> 1697049408 855150 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Abyxlrz14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117745&oldid=117744 5* 03Abyxlrz 5* (+64) 10
> 1697049445 625475 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Abyxlrz14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117746&oldid=117745 5* 03Abyxlrz 5* (+3) 10
> 1697050827 88232 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117747&oldid=117738 5* 03EvyLah 5* (+161) 10
> 1697050879 623725 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:EvyLah14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117748 5* 03EvyLah 5* (+61) 10Created page with "making 1fish and will upload (if I figure how) when it's done"
< 1697053280 89198 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Quit: gone too far
< 1697055251 843763 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :heck. my psz interpreter is more than 20 years old. I can now claim 20 years of experience with esoteric programming language development. and in a few months, geo will be 20 years old too.
< 1697055872 306833 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot's 15 years old now. (Its birthdate was 2008-08-14.)
< 1697055894 646556 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I really should bring it back, I just couldn't figure out that identd thing quickly and then keep getting distracted.
< 1697055923 351228 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :But maybe if I update Debian from oldstable to stable that'll accidentally fix it. There's a thought.
< 1697055923 806585 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :don't worry, my irc bot cbstream has had longer downtimes
< 1697056081 417 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-11-74.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1697056632 627538 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-11-74.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1697056763 271437 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1697056785 692529 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
< 1697058752 777164 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1697059442 321095 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-11-74.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1697060641 590141 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1697061165 136887 :sprout_!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-fc0c-d252-d543-cf0d.fixed6.kpn.net JOIN #esolangs * :sprout
< 1697061403 305524 :sprout!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-18d0-f616-1d13-4449.fixed6.kpn.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1697061710 451247 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1697062215 977578 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1697062443 113234 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1697062459 600485 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Down the Mountain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117749&oldid=107320 5* 03Joaozin003 5* (+70) 10added example
< 1697062487 366639 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org JOIN #esolangs leah2 :Leah Neukirchen
> 1697064689 126499 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117750&oldid=117559 5* 03Gus-caribe 5* (+333) 10/* Notable implementations */
> 1697065719 420044 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Gus-caribe14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117751 5* 03Gus-caribe 5* (+212) 10Created page with "I'm Gustavo Caribe, a software engineer who likes to work with a bit of everything.  ==My Esolang Interpreters== * [https://github.com/gus-caribe/bfck bfck]: A Dart command-line interpreter for brainfuck esolang."
< 1697068999 478587 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which Linux distribution is: without systemd, without Wayland, without Unicode, and without D-bus?
< 1697071959 183049 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1697072003 44363 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1697072398 620815 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
> 1697078296 251296 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07^!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117752&oldid=111808 5* 03Ninesquared81 5* (+1826) 10/* Examples */
< 1697081031 692714 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1697086247 571367 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Perm14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117753&oldid=20805 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+55) 10Categories
> 1697086258 94103 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Perm14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117754&oldid=117753 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+0) 10/* I/O */ Category
< 1697091273 342954 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1697093780 322974 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:e0d9:b0f2:ef82:bf9d JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
< 1697095730 613658 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-11-74.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1697096278 849883 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1697096298 428445 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1697100731 422304 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1697102345 457067 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:e0d9:b0f2:ef82:bf9d QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1697102610 306145 :sprout_!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-fc0c-d252-d543-cf0d.fixed6.kpn.net NICK :sprout
< 1697102925 807590 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.149.238.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1697103672 557302 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-11-74.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1697103684 614115 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-11-74.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1697105369 162746 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1697105566 446207 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-11-74.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1697106060 310819 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:e0d9:b0f2:ef82:bf9d JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
< 1697106061 326817 :Koen_!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:dd0a:3915:f466:527e JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
< 1697106248 621215 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-11-74.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1697106305 296049 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:e0d9:b0f2:ef82:bf9d QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1697106359 368335 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1697106514 447504 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1697108599 664621 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-11-74.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1697109362 183955 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1697109648 256651 :tromp!~textual@92.110.219.57 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1697109666 4263 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ruck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117755 5* 03None1 5* (+2107) 10Created page with "Ruck is an esolang invented by [[User:None1]], it has one extra command then [[Minimized BF]]: <code><</code> and its tape has infinite size, making it [[Turing complete]]. ==Examples== ===Hello World (unoptimized)=== <pre class="rectwrap"> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
< 1697109701 613303 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-11-74.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
> 1697109777 723796 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Minimized BF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117756&oldid=112394 5* 03None1 5* (+83) 10/* Example Programs */
< 1697110075 55062 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1697110097 681362 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117757&oldid=117712 5* 03None1 5* (+11) 10/* R */
> 1697110478 774889 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LABEL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117758&oldid=46633 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+24) 10Category
> 1697110784 678626 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Time14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117759 5* 03None1 5* (+843) 10Created page with "Time is an esolang invented by [[User:None1]] and inspired by [[rand.Next()]], the behavior of this esolang depends on how many times you run it. ==Execution== When run, Time gets the number of times you run ''before'' this run (for example, 0 for the first run).  Then, it ex
> 1697110858 576936 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117760&oldid=117571 5* 03None1 5* (+135) 10/* My Esolangs */
> 1697110929 966225 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117761&oldid=117570 5* 03None1 5* (+85) 10/* Brainfuck derivatives */
> 1697111069 888810 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117762&oldid=117609 5* 03None1 5* (+270) 10/* Propose Category:Languages that involve deletion */ new section
> 1697111086 922807 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117763&oldid=117762 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* Propose Category:Languages that involve deletion */
< 1697111583 382855 :tromp!~textual@92.110.219.57 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1697112495 479093 :mich181189_!sid268336@id-268336.tinside.irccloud.com NICK :mich181189
< 1697112509 606454 :mich181189!sid268336@id-268336.tinside.irccloud.com QUIT :
< 1697112519 951086 :mich181189!sid268336@londonhackspace/mich181189 JOIN #esolangs mich181189 :Michael
> 1697112530 286655 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Pages with broken file links14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117764 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+0) 10it is a wanted category douh
> 1697113458 329057 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07KittyKittyMewMew14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117765&oldid=74458 5* 03None1 5* (+67) 10/* Python 3 */
> 1697113484 815509 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117766&oldid=117760 5* 03None1 5* (+36) 10/* My Implementations */
< 1697115161 346812 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1697115389 466638 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07^!14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117767&oldid=117752 5* 03Ninesquared81 5* (-1) 10/* Less than */
> 1697115409 408852 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07^!14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117768&oldid=117767 5* 03Ninesquared81 5* (+4) 10/* Integer division */
> 1697116286 536621 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Explode14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117769&oldid=52586 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+129) 10Stub, categories
> 1697117764 784271 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07X strike14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117770&oldid=117734 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+40) 10
> 1697117840 378738 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:XKCD Random Number14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117771&oldid=117533 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+36) 10
> 1697117851 151782 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:XKCD Random Number14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117772&oldid=117771 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+2) 10/* X strike */
< 1697118151 620794 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
> 1697118187 166398 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-Z)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117773&oldid=117594 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+264) 10
> 1697118313 206626 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07X strike14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117774&oldid=117770 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (-4) 10/* One-time Cat program */
> 1697118573 123760 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07This esolang is a brainfuck derivative14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117775&oldid=114943 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* Cat Program */  Fixed
> 1697118607 172718 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07^!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117776&oldid=117768 5* 03Ninesquared81 5* (+1298) 10/* Notes on the transpiler */
> 1697118933 718552 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07This esolang is a brainfuck derivative14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117777&oldid=117775 5* 03None1 5* (+1420) 10Added Python interpreter and change Unimplemented to Implemented
> 1697118959 187514 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07This esolang is a brainfuck derivative14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117778&oldid=117777 5* 03None1 5* (-10) 10/* Interpreter */
< 1697119765 752763 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1697119780 612993 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
> 1697119970 601364 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gamma14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117779 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+1724) 10Created page with "'''Gamma''' is an esoteric programming language that is part of a series by [[User:Infinitehexagon]] on Greek esolangs that will be a derivative of the previous esolang with more commands, less commands, or modified commands. It has 3 more extra commands than [[Be
> 1697120052 298302 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07This esolang is a brainfuck derivative14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117780&oldid=117778 5* 03None1 5* (+6) 10/* Interpreter */
> 1697120071 154702 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gamma14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117781&oldid=117779 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+55) 10/* Commands */
> 1697120126 763637 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gamma14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117782&oldid=117781 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+27) 10
> 1697120167 43359 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gamma14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117783&oldid=117782 5* 03None1 5* (+1) 10
> 1697120269 12460 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gamma14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117784&oldid=117783 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+0) 10/* Commands */
< 1697120678 191279 :Koen_!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:dd0a:3915:f466:527e QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1697120775 63612 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Arraything14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117785 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+919) 10Arraything Sucks
> 1697120925 570902 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Arraything14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117786&oldid=117785 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+69) 10
> 1697121771 613976 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07This esolang is a brainfuck derivative14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117787&oldid=117780 5* 03None1 5* (+5) 10/* Syntax */
> 1697121807 412502 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07This esolang is a brainfuck derivative14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117788&oldid=117787 5* 03None1 5* (+21) 10/* Interpreter */
< 1697122899 363858 :Koen!~Koen@78.199.192.3 JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
> 1697123239 366198 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117789&oldid=117763 5* 03Ais523 5* (+668) 10/* Is Category:Unimplemented really neccessarry? */ I think it is
< 1697123613 975893 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1697123773 968948 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1697124040 733382 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Harumafuji Kohei 5*  10New user account
> 1697124308 669669 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117790&oldid=117747 5* 03Harumafuji Kohei 5* (+209) 10edit ?
< 1697125130 398350 :j-bot!~jbot@hagall.firefly.nu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1697125144 980266 :j-bot!~jbot@hagall.firefly.nu JOIN #esolangs * :jevalbot
< 1697127565 39640 :shikhin!~shikhin@offtopia/offtopian QUIT :Quit: Quittin'.
< 1697127572 975498 :ecs!ecs@hare/maintainer/ecs QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1697127583 946643 :shikhin!~shikhin@2607:5300:60:36::1 JOIN #esolangs * :shikhin
< 1697127586 324204 :j4cbo!sid186930@helmsley.irccloud.com QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1697127597 314731 :j4cbo!sid186930@id-186930.helmsley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs j4cbo :j4cbo
< 1697127620 636972 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1697127625 797235 :ecs!ecs@hare/maintainer/ecs JOIN #esolangs ecs :ecs (she/her)
< 1697127699 42854 :JAA!~JAA@user/jaa QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1697127762 31806 :JAA!~JAA@user/jaa JOIN #esolangs JAA :JustAnotherArchivist
> 1697127790 890111 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sus14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117791&oldid=93644 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+17) 10
> 1697127825 423483 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Sus14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117792 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+56) 10Created page with "How many among us programming languages are there? A lot"
< 1697127837 794595 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1697127870 65333 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Among Us14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117793&oldid=89921 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+17) 10
< 1697127874 15780 :riv!river@tilde.team/user/river JOIN #esolangs river :My real name
< 1697127883 672762 :riv!river@tilde.team/user/river NICK :river
> 1697127907 607160 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SussyLang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117794&oldid=86908 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+17) 10
> 1697128033 742864 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Suscript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117795&oldid=89931 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+17) 10
> 1697128230 221129 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07lang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117796&oldid=110429 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+17) 10
> 1697128280 621971 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Suscript 2.014]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117797&oldid=116575 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+17) 10
< 1697128315 598205 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-11-74.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Philosophical question: Is this spam?
> 1697128360 907527 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SusLang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117798&oldid=95871 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+17) 10
< 1697128367 79702 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-11-74.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION waits for "SussyLangScript" page to be created

< 1697128384 799767 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :i dont think its spam
< 1697128406 463083 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-11-74.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is it a sign that our community is extremely inclusive?
< 1697128411 454357 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1697128414 944815 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-11-74.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK cool
< 1697128575 392223 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But... oh no! Another category page without prior discussion.
< 1697128577 612822 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
> 1697128601 871460 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LOLSUS14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117799&oldid=86772 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+16) 10
> 1697128663 471996 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AmogusScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117800&oldid=114282 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+17) 10
< 1697128671 430509 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyone?
> 1697128727 668105 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ALMBARC12YO14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117801&oldid=108722 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+17) 10
< 1697128808 614195 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-11-74.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
> 1697128841 287953 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PaxtonPenguin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117802&oldid=117739 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+33) 10
< 1697129087 614428 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-82-205.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
> 1697129228 810306 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Chefs Kiss14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117803 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+218) 10Created page with "Basically just *[[+-=]] but with emojis  {| class="wikitable" |+ h |- ! Emoji !! The other column |- |  || Add the Accumulator |- |  || Decrease the Accumulator  |- |  || Print |}  Also thought during class"
> 1697129246 671492 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Chefs Kiss14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117804&oldid=117803 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (-5) 10
> 1697129314 485865 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Chefs Kiss14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117805&oldid=117804 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+52) 10
> 1697129337 518141 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Chefs Kiss14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117806&oldid=117805 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+0) 10
> 1697129370 974402 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PaxtonPenguin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117807&oldid=117802 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+16) 10
> 1697129462 505618 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Sus14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117808&oldid=117792 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+28) 10
< 1697129604 447996 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1697129715 436429 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Client Quit
< 1697129717 216750 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1697130396 790029 :Thelie!~Thelie@dslb-088-071-163-217.088.071.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie
< 1697130573 603089 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1697130610 812308 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.149.238.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
> 1697130687 283673 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Chefs Kiss14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117809&oldid=117806 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+17) 10
> 1697130748 982067 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Arraything14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117810&oldid=117786 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+30) 10
> 1697130763 671139 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Arraything14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117811&oldid=117810 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (-2) 10
< 1697132242 443255 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1697135348 775284 :Koen!~Koen@78.199.192.3 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1697136411 108151 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Celum14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117812&oldid=8685 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+187) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the Celum programming language on GitHub and introduced the category tag Implemented.
< 1697136468 825367 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-82-205.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1697136576 348373 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Celum14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117813&oldid=117812 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+1951) 10Added several example programs, including a Hello, world! printer, a truth-machine, and an infinite loop.
< 1697136745 612937 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1697136774 654288 :Thelie!~Thelie@dslb-088-071-163-217.088.071.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1697137111 651074 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-82-205.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
> 1697137579 217631 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Celum14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117814&oldid=117813 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+1417) 10Reformatted, reformulated, and extended the command table by pieces of information extrapolated from the descriptions and example programs, in particular the Boolfuck equiparation.
> 1697137613 472631 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Celum14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117815&oldid=117814 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+4) 10Inserted a missing the in the command table.
< 1697138033 629680 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1697138375 605180 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-82-205.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1697138754 612665 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1697138856 613665 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-82-205.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1697138875 286710 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Quit: gone too far
< 1697138908 942245 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi cpressey! Heard of IRP?
< 1697139310 92420 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: we're very inclusive on what we allow on the wiki, and this is by design. the original purpose of the wiki was to keep non-notable or primary research esolangs away from en.wikipedia by attracting them to here.
> 1697139402 494802 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Sus14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117816&oldid=117808 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+8) 10
> 1697139458 364804 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117817&oldid=117789 5* 03B jonas 5* (+360) 10/* Is Category:Unimplemented really neccessarry? */
< 1697139689 247171 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: if you're speaking of https://esolangs.org?curid=17937 then yes, let's just delete that one, it doesn't need much discussion
< 1697139897 701202 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-82-205.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Europe2048: no
< 1697139963 562195 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :IRP is a programming language whose interepter is always a human. Join #irp on libera.chat for the interepter. Ask nicely in the interepter.
< 1697140110 159278 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :For a more precise meaning, visit the esolangs page.
< 1697141218 761309 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1697143826 663516 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ALMBARC12YO14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117818&oldid=117801 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+188) 10Categories
< 1697144101 888503 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie
< 1697145167 186828 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1697146820 867338 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1697154072 746770 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Arraything14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117819&oldid=117811 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+11) 10
< 1697154308 80282 :awewsomegamer!~awewsomeg@S0106484bd46b6d3d.vn.shawcable.net JOIN #esolangs * :awewsomegamer
< 1697154605 300629 :awewsomegamer!~awewsomeg@S0106484bd46b6d3d.vn.shawcable.net QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 4.0.5
< 1697154996 474882 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had made the programming language for puzzle games (with turn-based, level-based, objects moving in the grid), already. Later I intended also making up programming language suitable for making the rules of a variant of mahjong game, and another one for a solitaire card games, too.
< 1697158428 414593 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1697158486 358638 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1697159078 540418 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07^!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117820&oldid=117776 5* 03Ninesquared81 5* (+774) 10/* Examples */
> 1697159391 269353 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117821&oldid=117131 5* 03McChuck 5* (+44) 10Listack
> 1697159543 581340 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117822&oldid=117821 5* 03McChuck 5* (+78) 10/* Listack */
> 1697159589 349730 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117823&oldid=117822 5* 03McChuck 5* (+32) 10/* Listack */
< 1697160506 566941 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: Is it PuzzleScript?
< 1697160572 931147 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :No, it is not PuzzleScript.
< 1697160971 362943 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had made up a different one, which in my opinion is much better in many ways, although it could be arguable.
< 1697161775 579100 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1697162434 622466 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
> 1697163077 229161 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07^!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117824&oldid=117820 5* 03Ninesquared81 5* (+8) 10/* Get number */
< 1697164441 391785 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Although, different programs have their own advantages and disadvantages, anyways.)
< 1697165088 483759 :awewsomegamer!~awewsomeg@S0106484bd46b6d3d.vn.shawcable.net JOIN #esolangs * :awewsomegamer
< 1697167258 613913 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-82-205.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
> 1697167370 948141 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Funge-9814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117825&oldid=107314 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+2171) 10Fixed rcfunge links
< 1697169091 612839 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1697170698 724875 :awewsomegamer!~awewsomeg@S0106484bd46b6d3d.vn.shawcable.net QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 4.0.5
< 1697171311 904386 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1697171312 94256 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1697171343 587142 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1697171664 576312 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1697173847 830023 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MemPanic14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117826&oldid=70862 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+26) 10Wayback
> 1697174221 36250 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Multiprogramming14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117827&oldid=69312 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+28) 10Wayback
> 1697174624 154496 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07YoptaScript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117828&oldid=110150 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+124) 10Categories
> 1697174690 927071 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117829&oldid=117817 5* 03None1 5* (+174) 10/* Is Category:Unimplemented really neccessarry? */
> 1697175150 737448 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07!!Fuck Python interpreter14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117830&oldid=113539 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+34) 10Link, category
> 1697175458 262184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117831&oldid=117829 5* 03None1 5* (+85) 10/* Is Category:Unimplemented really neccessarry? */
> 1697176035 522384 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07lang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117832&oldid=117796 5* 03None1 5* (+29) 10/* Specs */
> 1697176073 607962 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07No-code esolang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117833&oldid=115873 5* 03None1 5* (+57) 10
> 1697176886 813569 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07lang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117834&oldid=117832 5* 03None1 5* (+31) 10/* Specs */
< 1697177368 30060 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1697177895 495650 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :holá
> 1697178286 361412 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117835 5* 03None1 5* (+410) 10Created page with "Brainfuck is an esolang invented by [[User:None1]], it is very stupid.  ==Commands== The only valid program - <code>Brainfuck</code> increases the accumulator. ==Examples== ===Increase the accumulator===  Brainfuck ==Interpreter== ===[[Python]]===  a,x=input(),0  if a=='
> 1697178763 676756 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117836&oldid=117835 5* 03None1 5* (+21) 10/* Interpreter */
< 1697178834 615806 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-82-205.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
> 1697178915 115765 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117837&oldid=117761 5* 03None1 5* (+64) 10/* General languages */
> 1697178944 586435 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117838&oldid=117766 5* 03None1 5* (+64) 10/* My Esolangs */
> 1697178976 863533 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117839&oldid=117836 5* 03None1 5* (+32) 10
> 1697179137 137326 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117840&oldid=117839 5* 03None1 5* (+119) 10
> 1697179247 196666 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07This esolang is a brainfuck derivative14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117841&oldid=117788 5* 03None1 5* (+17) 10/* Interpreter */
> 1697179833 749049 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Chefs Kiss14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117842&oldid=117809 5* 03None1 5* (+11) 10
< 1697180741 385662 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.149.238.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1697180762 498998 :shikhin!~shikhin@2607:5300:60:36::1 CHGHOST ~shikhin :offtopia/offtopian
< 1697180878 45335 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1697181855 521738 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-82-205.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: I once started designing a language where the domain objects were tabletop game elements (cards, dice, counters, ...)
< 1697181950 270712 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-82-205.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :And then the programs would've been instructions that the players followed, like "If the card on the top of the discard pile is a queen, move the yetllow counter to the'"go' square"
< 1697181991 583402 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-82-205.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I never finished it because I couldn't think of a satisfying way to make it TC given that the number of objects on the table would be finite
< 1697182013 997986 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( What if the card on the top of the discard pile is a pawn... )
< 1697182467 655953 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-82-205.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :An unsatisfying way to make it TC: say there can be a board with an infinite number of numbered squares.
< 1697182562 215184 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-82-205.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :This leads me to think, it's not enough to have an infinite set of something.  All the things in the set have to stand in relation to one another
< 1697182598 727896 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( Ooh what if the discard pile is a Jenga tower... and you have MtG-like abilities to recover, well, blocks from the discard pile, but only if you manage to get it without knocking over the tower... )
< 1697182657 209030 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(not programming related... just following the idea of having non-cards on a discard pile, which can lead to questionable stability.)
< 1697183249 417114 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-82-205.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I eventually got the queen/pawn joke, but "MtG-like abilities to recover blocks" is quite beyond me -- but then, I don't MtG.
< 1697183478 83610 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :I _think_ you might be able to get Turing completeness in the same way MtG is claimed to achieve it, by abusing the action stack (don't quote me on this)
< 1697183488 102156 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The discard pile in MtG is called the graveyard (because cards that represented killed monsters go there), and there are some spells that get cards back from the graveyard into your hand or into play. (There's also a concept of removing a card from game completely.)
< 1697183507 397520 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: and I used "block" because Jenga doesn't have cards.
< 1697184628 407338 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
< 1697184803 628741 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: you mean https://scryfall.com/card/und/2/awol ?
< 1697184868 458167 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I think you read more into "completely" than I intended :P
< 1697184926 673637 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ante zone? chaos confetti?
< 1697184933 145517 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hehe
< 1697184987 397601 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's also this kind of permanent "removal": https://scryfall.com/card/ugl/70/blacker-lotus
< 1697185024 813021 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-82-205.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I remember being impressed by this distinction In a very old D&D game for 8-bit computers, where characters could be Conscious, Unconscious, Dead or Gone
< 1697185039 412522 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-82-205.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :If they were Gone they couldn't be resurrected
< 1697185599 282423 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: yes, that's the chaos confetti one
< 1697185644 398341 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah
< 1697185670 133022 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: yeah, some D&D variants have an extra step, because if you have at least a small part of the body then it's easier to resurrect the dead, and if they died only a few times ago then it's even easier and more importantly they might not even lose a level from the resurrection then
< 1697185727 13058 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"a few times ago" is kind of cute too
< 1697185733 967071 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(turns, I guess)
< 1697185789 830549 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oops, a few turns ago
< 1697185856 698399 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and these days there are all sorts of programs, like email clients, that have the concept of deleting an object to the trashcan or recycle bin, and deleting it completely so it's not even in the trashcan
< 1697185915 973483 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, and I think D&D has a weird three-way distinction between conscious with positive hitpoints, unconscious on zero hitpoint, and unconscious on negative hit points
< 1697188015 326984 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1697188976 349134 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1697189672 601174 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-82-205.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :It should make a weird two-way distinction on having +0 hit points and having -0 hit points too.  I will write Wizards of the Coast a strongly-worded letter on this matter.
< 1697189711 788022 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-82-205.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :In other news, I have written a (not-actually-)Scheme to (not-actually-)JavaScript compiler, in Lua
< 1697189747 146304 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-82-205.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's (not-actually-), but it's quite close.
< 1697189800 374451 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( At least the Lua is real. )
< 1697190067 347752 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1697190198 475104 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-82-205.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I realize a lot of my language ideas aren't weird enough to be "esolangs" anymore, but they're too weird for the "proglangdesign" channel.  (Which seems to be more about pet languages and complaining about systems issues, anyway.)
< 1697190268 574796 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-82-205.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1697190797 613206 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-83-134.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1697191314 163728 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1697191338 964951 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, and D&D creatures can also have the status where they died of old age or their soul is destroyed so even True Resurrection can't fix them
< 1697191403 4434 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :apparently there's another condition, True Resurrection can't resurrect creatures who have been dead for longer than 10 years. odd.
< 1697191441 627357 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably there so you don't try to resurrect famous people who died like fifty years ago
< 1697191905 191316 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie
< 1697193052 194768 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-83-134.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1697193712 614702 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-84-229.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1697193959 327871 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-84-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I found a very interesting quote about Lisp in a book about Modula-3:
< 1697193959 827612 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-84-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Lisp is the hybrid of the lambda calculus and the theory of a pairing function"
< 1697193993 226205 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-84-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wouldn't but it that way exactly, myself, but it's an interesting take
< 1697193996 362032 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-84-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :*put
< 1697194259 961331 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot, why does worm not rhyme with dorm?
< 1697194429 210656 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-84-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot's not here, man
< 1697194700 102893 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sword doesn't rhyme with word either
> 1697194835 989128 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Listack14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117843&oldid=117485 5* 03McChuck 5* (+125) 10/* Advanced Control Flow */
< 1697194975 839689 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :That sword alone can't stop.
< 1697195033 762527 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Why is it that 'prospect', 'prospective' and 'perspective' are all words, but 'perspect' is not.
< 1697195138 860329 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: because some idiot brand named plexiglass as perspex and perspect conflicts with that
> 1697196480 299548 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117844&oldid=94015 5* 03Harumafuji Kohei 5* (+213) 10I hope this works
< 1697197896 895866 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-84-229.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1697197970 108479 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, I think it's fine if you use "perspect" as a verb instead of "project perspectively"
< 1697198230 749760 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1697198375 615071 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1697198439 73050 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1697198762 372849 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.149.238.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
> 1697199240 718816 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Harumafuji Kohei14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117845 5* 03Harumafuji Kohei 5* (+23) 10ok
< 1697199564 377110 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1697199755 471744 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :<cpressey> An unsatisfying way to make it TC: say there can be a board with an infinite number of numbered squares. => what about unbounded card piles?
< 1697200177 781707 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv_: That's slightly better, but it would need an unbounded card deck.  I play the 18,091,716 of Clubs.
< 1697200300 215504 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe the positions between objects could be measured in real numbers with unlimited precision, and those distances... nah, see, tabletop games are supposed to abstract things like that away.  They're more topological than geometrical.
< 1697200366 861428 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :Not only are tabletops topological, they're often discrete
< 1697200441 293974 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 NICK :arseniiv
< 1697200501 643148 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: why are unbounded card ranks needed? Like, one can encode something just in the sequence of cards stacked
< 1697200516 100594 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: OK, true.
< 1697200537 928255 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( But card counters are much cooler. )
< 1697200627 70921 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :You still need an unbounded number of cards though, that was my sticking point.  For whatever reason I was thinking of it very much in concrete terms.  And no one could afford that many cards. (This was all many years ago.)
< 1697200688 742479 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1697200715 42594 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe cards could be like "fuel" that's used to ensure computations terminate in some contexts
< 1697200744 564908 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I'd be less concerned with it being TC or not these days.)
< 1697200768 699275 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1697201176 197375 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: no, you'd just have an unbounded number of copies of a finite number of different cards, like as many Forests as the players need
< 1697201221 544500 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it wouldn't be the 18091716 of clubs, unless perhaps you want to represent that with an ace of clubs with 18091715 +1 counters on it
< 1697201255 637093 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :btw on fungot not being available: why?
< 1697201295 396916 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :something about fizzie not wanting to troubleshoot something about identd, or something
< 1697201310 631583 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: he is implemented in an esoteric language and so is hard to change
< 1697201312 288210 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :or maybe I'm confusing that with another bot
< 1697201325 176641 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: Docker
< 1697201331 981110 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Docker is the solution to everything
< 1697201386 253720 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Actually, I had a bot here once too
< 1697201434 886122 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Adapting it to work with "ircs" was something I had to research, but in the end, not black magic or anything
< 1697201447 410721 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one of my friends thinks the same about Docker; also another one asks right now what’s a pairing function. I think it’s probably that Cantor ℕ × ℕ → ℕ bijection?
< 1697201514 665458 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: ah, I probably get it now, libera.chat expects this new more secure login
< 1697201555 591265 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: Yes, Cantor, and later others: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pairing_function  -- I think in that book they were talking more abstractly, about cons cells
< 1697201593 123566 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks I’ll relay!
< 1697201694 967566 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now that the topic of board games giving rise to esolangs was established, it occurred to me if one could somehow make a game with entities forming an inductive data type (or an inductive family of types)
< 1697201731 683773 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :something less mundane like trees of some kind
< 1697201852 15129 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"no one could afford that many cards" => the M:tG solution to this is threefold. (1) normally you need to own a physical copy of a card manufactured by Wizards if you want to use it in a tournament-legal game, even if you use a proxy to represent that card in game instead. a card moved to a zone is an object. you can't create cards or add new cards
< 1697201852 521693 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :during tournament-legal gameplay, only move cards that are already in the game or in the sideboard, but when the rules want to create a new object regardless, it instructs you to create a token or a copy of a spell. tokens and copies of spells don't have an underlying card that they reference, and so an unlimited number of them can be created
< 1697201853 14996 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :during the game without owning cards that you buy from M:tG. (2) the number of cards in your deck is bounded. the rules don't give a specific number, but they say that the deck should be small enough that one person can shuffle it. that's a small enough limit that I have more (cheap) cards than I could put in a deck. (3) in limited tournaments, the
< 1697201853 517227 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :tournament organizer must provide an unlimited number of the five eternal basic lands, and during deckbuilding you can add as many of them into your deck. (you may have to return the lands to the organizer afterwards of course).
< 1697202011 747619 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: hard to be sure without context, but I think no, that's just the cons function that makes an ordered pair, where the car of the resulting pair is the first argument of the function, and the cdr of the resulting pari is the second argument to the function. this is useful only in a language that has multi-argument functions (or at least
< 1697202012 271232 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :curried ones)
< 1697202116 366390 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: doesn't basically any discrete but potentially infinite game work with inductive types?
< 1697202117 318003 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: might be this too, yeah
< 1697202162 404344 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :<wib_jonas> doesn't basically any discrete but potentially infinite game work with inductive types? => I mean, in a sufficiently transparent way. A puny deck of cards doesn’t feel like a value of an inductive type!
> 1697202173 998361 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Miser14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117846&oldid=113132 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+179) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the Miser programming language on GitHub, changed the category tag Unimplemented to Implemented, and supplemented the category 2023.
< 1697202246 678340 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: sure, but this is about the game state, not just a deck of cards packed away
< 1697202291 567211 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :some games like Poker have a very simple type for game states, but games like M:tG have ridiculously complicated ones
< 1697202330 910993 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: hmmmmmm. But again, the whole state feels like too much too, yeah your note about M:tG shows this exactly
< 1697202363 402524 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what I intended is for players to manipulate data like they manipulate single cards, pieces and other things
< 1697202380 319871 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :of course a lot of it is hard to manipulate freely in game, so attempts for simulations with M:tG: like the ones ais523 does usually use very restricted subsets of the states
< 1697202398 963335 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this would probably be clumsy in most cases, of course, with practicality and interestingness being the heart of the question
< 1697202488 982229 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :btw I sometimes try to invent algebraic-y combinatory decks of cards which would allow interesting simple games with that deck (something like what was done with Set, but Set is too simple)
> 1697202544 32354 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Miser14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117847&oldid=117846 5* 03None1 5* (+25) 10/* Interpreter */
< 1697202580 332172 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Set is a bounded game (if the number of players is bounded at least), I specifically said unbounded games to avoid that sort of thign
< 1697202598 694169 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had a peculiar result with Möbius like ranks which allow for there to be ranks that are opposite to each other, or for each rank there to be two opposites, depending on where do we try to draw a prism or antiprism on a Möbius strip
< 1697202625 306838 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah this is not about Turing-complete games and inductive types, I digressed
< 1697202921 916104 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: Yeah, the problem was/is that it only accepts "admin" commands with a specific "user@cloak" suffix, and due to some inexplicable indentd breakage I'm now "~user@cloak" instead, so it refuses to obey me and join the channel.
< 1697202925 853791 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It'd be quite easy to just patch that ~ in there, but I wanted to fix that identd situation, just haven't gotten around to it.
< 1697203086 33124 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a JOIN #esolangs fungot :fungot-0.1
< 1697203096 674738 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I just added the ~.)
< 1697203110 436757 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: How was your extended vacation off the channel? 
< 1697203111 453922 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: good lord, mr fnord has gained... uh... something warp flux thingy worked. answer: " quite well, the u of o dominates eugene or, but, which one shows more idle time?
< 1697203120 856598 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :interesting
< 1697203126 555431 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe a little more incoherent than normal.
< 1697203190 224673 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :“mr fnord” is interesting too, though it should be by all means the expected state transition
> 1697203192 341267 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117848&oldid=117602 5* 03None1 5* (+371) 10
< 1697203192 494561 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`style
< 1697203194 423858 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :style? No such file or directory
< 1697203202 132790 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`prefix
< 1697203203 214651 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :prefix? No such file or directory
< 1697203205 491267 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :If it was written in a proper language I'd probably just make it do the IRCv3 `account-tag` thing for command authentication.
< 1697203207 106366 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :`prefixes
< 1697203208 951268 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :uh my poor memory
< 1697203209 572198 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
< 1697203212 592959 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks
< 1697203220 297119 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :^style
< 1697203220 317733 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld elon enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
< 1697203230 488425 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm what is the current one
< 1697203236 18741 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :"irc"
< 1697203240 506479 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's why there's a * next to it.
< 1697203251 314106 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(A very easy-to-miss *.)
< 1697203267 772968 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah ah now I see; uh
< 1697203288 221313 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought it was one of parliaments
< 1697203314 497825 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though then mr fnord is not as expected
< 1697203320 120226 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :They may not talk that much about warp flux thingies in the parliaments.
< 1697203329 202845 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Although who knows, maybe they do.
< 1697203341 282103 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :^style ukparl
< 1697203341 302613 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :Selected style: ukparl (UK Parliament debates from brexit referendum to late 2018)
< 1697203341 495512 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :reasonable
< 1697203350 58292 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I overlooked that part too
< 1697203354 597337 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: What do you think of the tax rate nowadays? 
< 1697203355 601029 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: government new clause 1. one interesting point from the hon. and learned friend the minister for that. i have an opportunity to make the government think of themselves as dictators, but
< 1697203381 103748 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it’s so homey
< 1697203495 60082 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: I think someone told me that freezing the income tax bands like they did instead of updating them in line with inflation is in fact effectively a rather large tax increase, just in a more sneaky fashion. What do you think about that? 
< 1697203495 907155 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: he has the better cakes, i may, from september, we have the right to the protection of a british citizen, to whom governments should have a direct opportunity to do the right things, local developers to do precisely that.
< 1697203516 956910 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, well, if we get the better cakes I guess it's worth it.
> 1697203681 924335 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117849&oldid=117848 5* 03None1 5* (+319) 10
< 1697203710 39171 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :🎂
> 1697203765 342154 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117850&oldid=117849 5* 03None1 5* (+69) 10/* I/O */
> 1697203795 776772 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117851&oldid=117850 5* 03None1 5* (+4) 10
< 1697203806 105281 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? fungot
< 1697203806 251293 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: to the hon. and learned friend the member for leeds north through the northern ireland
< 1697203808 205539 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
> 1697203813 942632 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117852&oldid=116181 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+103) 10
< 1697203818 156631 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :<3
> 1697203845 654241 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117853&oldid=117851 5* 03None1 5* (+66) 10/* Commands */
< 1697203919 95794 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: would you count Hercules and the hydra as a game? it works on trees. http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2008-03-27.1537.html http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2008-03-16.1534.ordinaux-et-hydres.html#d.2008-03-16.1534 http://www.madore.org/~david/math/hydra0.xhtml http://www.madore.org/~david/math/hydra.xhtml (these are two
< 1697203919 593799 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :different games, the hydra and the dire hydra)
> 1697203929 530207 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Chefs Kiss14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117854&oldid=117842 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+18) 10
< 1697203934 885279 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or do the lambda crocodiles count as a game?
< 1697203967 820518 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lambda crocodiles sound familiar hmm
< 1697204001 675249 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :http://worrydream.com/AlligatorEggs/ explicitly calls it a game, but of course they might be using that word differently from what youw ant
< 1697204056 577372 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1697204112 903344 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait, fungot returned? hi fungot
< 1697204113 280059 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: i have to be clear, the government i have nothing good going fnord and grieving families to have the best of the public sector.
> 1697204114 982041 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AMONGUSISABIGSUSSYBAKAHAHAHAHAHATHISLANGUAGEISREALLYCOOLPLEASEUSEITMYLIFEDEPENDSONITORELSEPLSPLSPLSPLSPLSPLSPLSkahyghdfhm14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117855&oldid=114132 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+17) 10
< 1697204122 920681 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? prefixes
< 1697204124 986561 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
< 1697204218 830229 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: According to WP the game of Nim has been adaptedto graphs ("The starting board is a disconnected graph, and players take turns to remove adjacent vertices." is all it says though?)  So I wonder if it could be adapted to inductive types.  I don't know.
< 1697204226 528019 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot prefixes
< 1697204226 763861 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =.
< 1697204281 74187 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: oh huh
< 1697204298 936761 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :If we get a ,-prefixed bot, it'll look a little confusing in that list, no matter whether it's `..., commabot ,, ...` or `..., commabot , , ...`.
< 1697204347 130200 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot, why does worm not rhyme with dorm? int-e wanted to know
< 1697204347 441007 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: is the hon. and learned friend the member for glasgow north, for the scottish government the powers to the tenant to the county, the proud and justified. it and the associated secretary of states and government
< 1697204367 1269 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I've been thinking of (re)using ! for `esolangs` if it ever gets any functionality that's user-triggerable, like logsearching or something.)
< 1697204367 727397 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: When will Unicode become Turing complete?
< 1697204368 321092 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: i have a number, has a capacity of about 690 people in my local police, i have to make a public statement, which may have a sustained and at what amazon, we are a country of only 5.5 million. through the bill,
< 1697204380 550507 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot, have you ever decried anything?
< 1697204380 786486 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: to fnord part of the uk, creating a new, integrated and fully support the government,
< 1697204391 470308 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot, is a "weatherspoon" the propeller thing under a weathercock that spins to show how fast the wind is?
> 1697204394 723087 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PaxtonPenguin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117856&oldid=117807 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+23) 10Me when
< 1697204408 407107 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's a good list of things to decry tbh
< 1697204432 618497 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: I very much do not understand most of the things in type theory.  I'm not sure if I want to go down that road or not.
< 1697204909 988971 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: my plan, if I ever again make a queryable IRC bot (that doesn't just take over a full channel and answer there) is to again respond to their irc nick, but also have six three-character shortcuts for the six most frequent commands, namely -0= -=0 0-= 0=- =-0 =0- ; unless it's a bot that implements Niagara, in which case the shortcut is the
< 1697204910 489312 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :three-character waterfall ~|_ or the shorter two-character waterfall ~| for brevity
< 1697204975 982201 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :single-character prefixes are annoying, HackEso and lambdabot both get triggered by accident two often
< 1697204983 841867 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :even when it's two characters but the second is space
< 1697205069 137535 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and yes, I'm saying that despite that I first programmed jevalbot to be triggerable by a single character plus space, and then, when someone asked, I added a setting to make the space optional, and that option was used for whatever instance used ) as its invocation shortcut
> 1697205384 976441 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117857&oldid=117191 5* 03None1 5* (+246) 10/* Delete a page */ new section
< 1697205418 922704 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1697205577 614686 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
> 1697205795 720792 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117858&oldid=117838 5* 03None1 5* (+318) 10/* My projects about esolangs */
> 1697205914 996364 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117859&oldid=117858 5* 03None1 5* (+34) 10/* jitbf */
> 1697206009 275838 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117860&oldid=117859 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* jitbf */  WTF Jul. is July not June
> 1697206048 97410 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117861&oldid=117860 5* 03None1 5* (+1) 10/* jitbf */
> 1697206150 204365 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117862&oldid=117742 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+169) 10/*  */
> 1697206165 765468 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117863&oldid=117852 5* 03None1 5* (+84) 10/* Commands */
> 1697206478 705131 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117864&oldid=117863 5* 03None1 5* (+217) 10/* Commands */
> 1697206500 7907 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117865&oldid=117864 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* Commands */
> 1697206572 28254 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117866&oldid=117865 5* 03None1 5* (-11) 10/* Commands */
> 1697206733 14598 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117867&oldid=117862 5* 03None1 5* (+373) 10/* Recursion */
> 1697207376 321092 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Accumulator-based14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117868&oldid=116430 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+85) 10adding onto this
> 1697207440 863670 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117869&oldid=117258 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+31) 10a new cat
> 1697207460 833484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Accumulator-based14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117870&oldid=117868 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (-1) 10
< 1697208364 395631 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Inductive types usually come with a function to prove properties about them." (WP again) -- I dunno about "usually" -- I don't know what you'd call an inductive type that doesn't support proof by induction -- isn't that just a recursive type?
< 1697209110 91071 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1697209148 159450 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
> 1697209181 390399 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Chefs Kiss14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117871&oldid=117854 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+114) 10Stub, categories
< 1697209313 63288 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1697209499 731358 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:B jonas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117872&oldid=112607 5* 03B jonas 5* (+216) 10/* Todo */ pointer machine
< 1697209746 808457 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1697210347 870323 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
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< 1697211358 106654 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1697211395 583533 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, craziness!  I just discovered by accident that L. C. Paulson has a blog on GitHub: https://lawrencecpaulson.github.io/
< 1697211790 326721 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :nice
> 1697212202 660762 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Swapfuck/Implementation14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117873&oldid=86422 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+4) 10Back, category
< 1697212289 212140 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://quoteme.github.io/posts/sheaves_in_minecraft
< 1697212464 542377 :Cale!~cale@cpe80d04ade0a03-cm80d04ade0a01.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN #esolangs Cale :realname
< 1697213030 698081 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK I *kind of* followed that :)
> 1697213164 709791 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Arraything14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117874&oldid=117819 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+186) 10
> 1697213174 675968 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Arraything14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117875&oldid=117874 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+1) 10
> 1697213202 241629 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Arraything14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117876&oldid=117875 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+6) 10
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> 1697213303 255557 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Parrot14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117877&oldid=11377 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+23) 10Category
< 1697213558 612889 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1697214181 686913 :Franciman!~Franciman@mx1.fracta.dev PART #esolangs :WeeChat 3.8
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> 1697221818 589311 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10deleted "[[02Python program which generates  code that prints the certain text10]]"
> 1697221901 95764 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117878&oldid=117857 5* 03Ais523 5* (+134) 10/* Delete a page */ deleted
< 1697222003 273332 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1697222136 285235 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1697222187 644995 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: there's a TCness construction for Magic: the Gathering where the only game object you need unlimited quantities of is +1/+1 counters (although the program is represented by tokens, you only need finitely many of them to represent any given program)
< 1697222213 875664 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, the current "best" (=simplest and most flexible) construction stores data in the quantity of tokens and in the amount of damage marked on them, so needs arbitrarily many tokens
< 1697222285 120467 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :incidentally, there's no rule saying that the five land-typed-and-non-snow basic lands have to be always available – they do have to keep being reprinted in order to remain legal in Standard
< 1697222448 260989 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: isn't there now a new rule that you can replace a card in your deck with one of the five basic lands in *constructed* if you registered with a deck but it turns out you can't play one of your cards because the physical card is damaged or some similar problem?
< 1697222526 383481 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think that rule's new, I remember it from the first time I looked at the tournament rules
< 1697222549 669198 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I'm not sure specifically which lands it allows
< 1697222566 566400 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1697222596 695954 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Netrunner also has a rule allowing cards to be replaced in order to make a deck legal, but the prescribed replacement cards actually don't exist in the game
< 1697222640 296513 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. if your deck doesn't have enough agenda points, you have to replace cards with vanilla 4/2 agendas until you have enough, but there are no vanilla 4/2 agendas printed
< 1697222643 648141 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what do you mean by "don't exist in the game"?
< 1697222648 848772 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the idea is that you proxy one
< 1697222655 262934 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see
< 1697222710 474785 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(a vanilla 4/2 agenda would be really bad and numerous cards are strictly better than it – I think the intention is for the replacement card to be worse than any card you might play intentionally)
< 1697222784 555014 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I've seen something like that in casual to define how goldfishing work. My preference is that the goldfish player has a deck of 60 cards of Forest (or whatever number of cards is normal in the format); but other people prefer 60 cards with no type or mana cost
< 1697222810 979899 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that got updated to 60 Wastes at one point, because the basic land types on the opponents' lands ended up mattering sometimes
< 1697222824 249903 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* at some point
< 1697222862 482333 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and, well, it's more symmetrical to pick the basic land that isn't part of a cycle
< 1697222987 621023 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1697222997 609548 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi everyone!
< 1697223030 590399 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think the principled solution would be to use Plains because there are almost no creatures with plainswalk; I prefer Forests, but if I play a deck with cards with forestwalk then I would use Plains instead 
< 1697223031 297781 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this reminds me, I proved a language Turing-complete for a team of people working on M:tG Turing-completeness, simplifying the construction, but haven't been able to tell them about it because they communicate via a forum that needs a Twitch account to log into
< 1697223059 398855 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: that must be the Scryfall forum
< 1697223062 966885 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :forestwalk doesn't usually matter against an all-land deck, unless you're giving the opponent creatures to block with
< 1697223067 427424 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: actually no, MTG Salvation
< 1697223075 231091 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Please finish this: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Nice
< 1697223076 474757 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, that one
< 1697223166 950713 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :So you agree with me?
< 1697223205 84659 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Europe2048: the page *was* finished, but it was using images illegally stolen from other websites
< 1697223206 677215 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so they had to be deleted
< 1697223227 218171 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :So now you have to remake 'em, all by yourself.
< 1697223232 850046 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no I don't
< 1697223250 214093 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Why?
< 1697223277 741553 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because that isn't how obligations work
< 1697223281 278633 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: so why can't you get an account on twitch? have they started to require phone verification for all new accounts or some such nonsense?
< 1697223289 826916 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I don't agree with their terms of service
< 1697223318 400112 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :including parts that would impact you if you don't stream?
< 1697223325 692083 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :s/would/would not/
< 1697223347 301369 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :their terms of service is quite weird for sure
< 1697223358 248977 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but most of the weird rules are for streaming or for twitch chat
< 1697223369 739659 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: last time I looked they had a rather overreaching indemnification clause
> 1697223371 689860 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Nice14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117879&oldid=117372 5* 03Europe2048 5* (+183) 10
< 1697223381 770643 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I'll look at that
< 1697223417 844361 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I imagine the entire ToS has changed since – those things tend to have a lot of churn – but it's still not something I particularly want to get involved with
< 1697223454 485513 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is there any newsgroup on Usenet that is suitable to write about Turing-completeness of Magic: the Gathering?
< 1697223478 846181 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: technically yes, but it's unlikely anyone is still reading it
< 1697223511 616617 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Usenet used to be the primary forum for discussing Magic: the Gathering a couple of decades ago, and as such there's at least one newsgroup for general M:tG discussion
< 1697223519 459911 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although I'm not 100% confident about what it was called
< 1697223573 635803 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it started rec.games., but there's a chance it was in alt.
< 1697223634 470498 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh the ToS definitely keeps changing and growing for sure
< 1697223712 765938 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wizards hosted a web forum about M:tG and more for a while, but they sadly removed it from the web since. that forum did contain a lot of useful information.
< 1697223733 929765 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they also turned off Gatherer comments
< 1697223741 984194 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@37.128.204.107 QUIT :Quit: gone too far
< 1697223955 933668 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.twitch.tv/p/en/legal/terms-of-service/#a-indemnification ah, this is probably what you're talking about
< 1697224041 956150 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow, yes, that clause is *still* ridiculous
< 1697224046 384126 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes it is
< 1697224066 697194 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess in that case you'll have to find other contacts for someone involved
< 1697224096 760893 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have been trying
< 1697224115 848601 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at this point the easier approach seems to be to find someone who already has a Twitch account and would be willing to relay the message
< 1697224121 749826 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or write up on http://nethack4.org/pastebin/unfinished-mtg-tc-combo.html and hope they read it
< 1697224134 391034 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it seems weird to edit a pastebin
< 1697224145 810480 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, that's a pastebin
< 1697224145 880707 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even though I can do it, due to having control of the server it's implemented on
< 1697224146 622279 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm
< 1697224164 896823 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought you had something outside of the pastebin
< 1697224171 431193 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's on the wiki
< 1697224175 80413 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Flooding_Waterfall_Model
< 1697224205 535931 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh lovely indeed. I especially like "[...] Twitch reserves the right, at your expense, [...]"
> 1697224250 693458 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117880&oldid=117119 5* 03Ais523 5* (+55) 10link [[Flooding Waterfall Model]], not my language but relevant to the M:tG discussion
< 1697224323 257616 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if they ever tried to enforce that clause in full, they would be destroyed by the media
< 1697224331 930091 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I got a badge on our intranet team page from having had a source control client named after a M:tG card, but it was completely accidental.
< 1697224335 541673 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I think it was just "knight" or something, named after a project/group/thing.)
< 1697224382 293342 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :just "Knight" isn't an M:tG card. it's an M:tG creature type.
< 1697224397 868742 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it was the name of a token, until the rule change to token names
< 1697224404 671269 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but yes, tokens are not cards
< 1697224441 213263 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It was probably pulled from some database of some kind by someone who didn't pay attention good.
< 1697224458 206712 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are M:tG cards with very generic names admittedly. 
< 1697224480 163677 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also Slay the Spire seems to have proportionally more generic names than M:tG apparently
< 1697224515 458515 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Slay the Spire naming is weird, many of the names are generic but many of them aren't
< 1697224521 684202 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, I'm building a bf interepter in Scratch.
< 1697224532 897538 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :It will have 256 memory cells.
< 1697224546 628224 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :incidentally, when I went onto a Netrunner forum to tell people about the TCness proof, it turned out that the creator of Slay the Spire was owner of the forum
< 1697224583 822307 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the forum came first)
< 1697224640 776608 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh they also have one of those lovely "symmetric" arbitration clauses that aren't symmetric at all when you're a consumer and the other party is a billion dollar company.
< 1697224701 288421 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: the funny thing there is, the asymmetry actually ends up benefiting the consumer usually, there's at least one case semi-recently of a company ending up hugely burdened by their own arbitration caluse
< 1697224701 428383 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Apparently it was for having one called "knight" but also for having one called "launch", which does appear -- https://scryfall.com/card/usg/82/launch is what the 'why I have this badge?' script links to -- to be an actual card.
< 1697224721 192824 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name Launch
< 1697224723 267872 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Launch \ 1U \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant creature \ Enchanted creature has flying. \ When Launch is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, return Launch to its owner's hand. \ US-C \  \ Launch Party \ 3B \ Instant \ As an additional cost to cast this spell, sacrifice a creature. \ Destroy target creature. Its controller loses 2 life. \ RTR-C \  \ Launch the Fleet \ W \ Sorcery \ Strive -- This spell costs {1} more to cast for each target beyond the 
< 1697224744 968806 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name Rancor
< 1697224746 139377 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Rancor \ G \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant creature \ Enchanted creature gets +2/+0 and has trample. \ When Rancor is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, return Rancor to its owner's hand. \ UL-C, ARC-C, PC2-C, M13-U, EMA-U, PCA-C, E02-U, A25-U, DDD-C
< 1697224757 25436 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, I was wondering if it was a cycle, apparently not though
< 1697224766 639298 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :would be a *very* unbalanced cycle if so :-)
< 1697224852 736867 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I'm not sure whether I agree with the conclusion... to my mind that case was an outlier where the company (I forgot which one) actually lost in arbitration. I don't have any data though.
< 1697224868 932286 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: it was more about the costs to the company
< 1697224880 501809 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it was some "arbitration rather than class action" thing
< 1697224897 572614 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the class action would have been *much* cheaper for the company than a huge number of individual arbitration cases
< 1697224909 454844 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which they had to deal with individually
< 1697224917 364730 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, I don't think I saw that.
< 1697224951 8753 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think Rancor is a cycle
< 1697224954 190684 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is in a cycle
< 1697224960 566695 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The case I saw was a company who lost in arbitration and tried to appeal and found that their ToS said they couldn't do that... so they lost.
< 1697224989 735864 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But it was a while ago and I forgot all the details. :-/
> 1697225097 965545 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Placement14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117881&oldid=97071 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+79) 10Categories
< 1697225111 583678 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1697225242 759734 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: hmm, it looks like it might be two different cycles, one is Cessation, Slow Motion, Sleeper's Guile, Sluggishness, Rancor; the other is Brilliant Halo, Launch, Despodency, Fiery Mantle, Fortitude.
< 1697225253 484504 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have multiple of these cards
< 1697225268 400087 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I did remember that Rancor is a cycle
< 1697225287 722695 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they come from old sets so unbalanced cycles aren't unlikely
< 1697225369 970679 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ooh, I think I have a Reddit account for one of the people in the thread, it surely has to be the same person
< 1697225453 20581 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow, the Reddit send private message thing isn't working any more
< 1697225457 511007 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :how much have they managed to break that site
< 1697225479 107421 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shift-refresh fixed it
< 1697225481 32185 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :still, wow
< 1697225551 804659 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: https://www.irregularwebcomic.net/draakslair/viewtopic.php?p=179213&hilit=atog#p179213 is relevant for how easy it is to accidentally name something the same as a M:tG card, so I can easily believe that you named a software the same as a card, it's just that "Knight" doesn't match
> 1697225609 62003 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Arraything14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117882&oldid=117876 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+23) 10When the h
< 1697225630 268858 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe you called it Minamo, School at Water's Edge instead
< 1697225652 51250 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :let's see if this works
< 1697225729 224622 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh yeah, ais523's version control system shares its name with an M:tG card
< 1697225751 597532 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so does Apache's
< 1697225756 55284 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow
< 1697225808 212002 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: mine also shares its name with a Yu-Gi-Oh! card, which is more notable because it's one of the most famous cards in the game – an entire format is named after it
< 1697225838 47527 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nice
< 1697225841 616472 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1697225874 783390 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :next we need to find a collectible card game that has a card named "Mercurial"
< 1697225913 138880 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :M:tG has Mercurial Spelldancer, but I don't think it has Mercurial as a single word
< 1697225921 142072 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, that reminds me, what's the Knight card in Settlers of Catan called? is it "Knight"?
< 1697225988 750820 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :looks like it is "Knight"
< 1697225990 579690 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :What are you talking about?
< 1697225995 911981 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: ^
< 1697226057 792159 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Europe2048: we're a little offtopic at the moment, talking about cards in card games that have the same name as other things
< 1697226111 410205 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the reference to ais's version control software is obscure. it doesn't exist yet and it's called scapegoat. 
< 1697226140 774310 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: OK!
< 1697226179 3705 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :planning software projects is so much easier than actually writing them
< 1697226199 980753 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :especially for me at the moment, I was trying to write more of a program earlier today and just couldn't do it
< 1697226348 506209 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at present, it feels like I'm only able to program for about a week at a time, and then it takes a couple of weeks to recover from it
< 1697226371 210505 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1697226542 384517 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :"> tromp has joined"
< 1697226559 765983 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :This isn't the White House.l
< 1697226579 326709 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the l was typed accidentally)
< 1697226602 804273 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :turns out that sometimes, some surnames have several letters in common with other surnames
< 1697226791 778223 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I spent the week writing a (not-quite-)Scheme to JavaScript compiler.  Which kind of works, but a lot of the library procedures aren't implemented.
< 1697226817 234871 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :It also interprets! And it's written in Lua.
< 1697226830 270484 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :It cheats very much by leaving out tail recursion.
< 1697226863 597161 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :The next step is to implement some esolangs in it.
< 1697226873 526912 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh right, being a compiler rather than an interpreter, it isn't trivial to implement tail recursion without support in the host language
< 1697226890 593192 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yah.
< 1697226895 134197 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is JavaScript allowed to support tail-recursion? if so, I imagine most of the browser engines would implement it
< 1697226913 31541 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :some languages have semantics which make tail-recursion an invalid optimisation for one reason or another
< 1697226961 420791 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :out of interest, how good is Lua at writing compilers? I don't think I've ever tried that combination
< 1697226996 223923 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :each of "commit", "clone", "clean", "reset", "restore", "status", are both M:tG card names and git subcommands. They should print a "bisect" instant and add an "index" subcommand.
< 1697227151 641022 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :isn't "commit" half an aftermath card? which makes the pronounced card name "commit to memory"
< 1697227168 468325 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the names of the halves are treated separately by the game, so I expect it counts
< 1697227247 522074 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure but I think the aftermath cards just have the first name as their name unless they're on the stack cast with aftermath
< 1697227346 73621 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: is this the scheme-like language that you were talking about a few days ago?
> 1697227878 578206 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Arraything14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117883&oldid=117882 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+43) 10
> 1697228361 644412 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Udymts14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117884&oldid=92264 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-25) 10Link, categories
< 1697228408 825917 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think JavaScript is allowed to implement tail-recursion in some cases only, as far as I know
< 1697228541 937981 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Planning software project easier than writing it might also depend what plans are being made, I think
< 1697228639 143118 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :One thing I wanted to design (and might be good with better discussion of it) is operating system design.
< 1697228647 731101 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: What is "bisect" instant going to mean?
< 1697228700 212545 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :presumably some sort of removal spell
< 1697228721 92767 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although there is already Saw In Half (too new to be in the bot, I think), which changes one creature into two tokens with each have half the stats
< 1697228727 246620 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think, at least
< 1697228761 672643 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :not 100% sure, it's hard for me to remember all the details of a card that's never been particularly relevant to me
< 1697229557 958408 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, I'm thinking it's a creature removal spell
> 1697229569 950651 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fm14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117885&oldid=69397 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+29) 10Category
< 1697229692 493181 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or it could be a red removal spell that kills a creature or artifact
< 1697230349 283946 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1697230363 613859 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1697230435 18618 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Was torn away for a bit there.  ais523: I don't know if tail calls can be optimized in JS - I suspect they can't but only because I can't recall reading about it, and I know I've read about some optimizations JS compilers do.  This is the largest project I've done in Lua, and it's not much worse than using say Python, but it's a bit goofier /
< 1697230435 518991 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :less intuitive.
< 1697230523 426732 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Yes, it's that one.  I don't know how similar to actual Scheme it will turn out to be, but it's, erm, "mutually intelligible".
< 1697230933 353292 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :According to some web searches, the ES6 spec permits implementations to do TCO, but as of 2023 the only engine that actually does it is Safari.  I wouldn't've guessed that.
< 1697230971 541843 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: Firefox and Chromium both have very advanced debuggers, maybe they don't implement TCO because it would mess with the debugger
< 1697231783 239455 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :It is apparent that they Have Reasons Not To, whatever they exactly are.  Apparently Chromium tried, back in 2016, but then backed out.  Anyway, it's no matter.  The functions I'll be writing in this don't do much recursion at all, and it iteration is needed, it can be done in library functions.  And if I ever DO feel like writing a
< 1697231783 740250 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :trampolining compiler, I now have something I can extend in that direction instead of starting from scratch.
< 1697231818 734299 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Actually, if there are recursion schemes, can't there also be iteration schemes?  Instead of fold(), you have iter()
< 1697231861 736185 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's also the compromise where you optimize some tail calls but don't guarantee optimizing all of them
< 1697231873 488491 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :real world compilers do that 
< 1697232517 138897 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1697233635 773985 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-87-108.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1697241562 614299 :Penguin!~Penguin@2600:1014:b035:a8e2:d151:9902:84f4:f2ac JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Penguin
< 1697241571 613120 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] FortyTwoBB
< 1697241572 937094 :Penguin!~Penguin@2600:1014:b035:a8e2:d151:9902:84f4:f2ac QUIT :Client Quit
< 1697241602 259384 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net QUIT :Client Quit
< 1697241753 646 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :gah, FortyTwo was here and gone before I noticed
< 1697241761 613136 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] FortyTwoBB
< 1697241764 477710 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi FortyTwoBB
< 1697241769 559409 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Flooding_Waterfall_Model
< 1697241776 276030 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi apparently flooding is TC?
< 1697241778 586631 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yep
< 1697241785 579734 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :how does that work?
< 1697241792 585898 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can't meaningfully store data in the quantity of tokens, but you can store it in the amount of damage marked on them
< 1697241808 146682 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :because that is fantastic news
< 1697241829 448396 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's a summary on the wiki page, and I wrote a compiler into Flooding Waterfall Model (and an interpreter for the language) to make sure it worked
< 1697241835 484792 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh? but the damage is done the same very tick?
< 1697241840 516687 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :every*
< 1697241845 167780 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it depends on when the first token was made
< 1697241852 940088 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because when the oldest token dies, they all die
< 1697241876 686862 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, if you have say 1000 tokens, the tokens die 1000 ticks after the first token was made
< 1697241889 362 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and by changing the timing of the first token you can store information, even though the number of tokens is fixed
< 1697241965 881838 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok? but you can only create tokens when others die, so being a few ticks earlier or later is not easy to control right?
< 1697241980 339629 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it does need controlling, but it wasn't too bad to control it
< 1697241988 391242 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are two basic ideas
< 1697242013 118890 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one is that we split the creature types into two groups, and alternate between the two groups: most of the time, either all the tokens belong to one group or all the tokens belong to the other
< 1697242043 729907 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(so each creature type spends a lot of time with no creatures at all, other than the one used for halting)
< 1697242072 327170 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure
< 1697242085 306104 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if we have, say, one Ape makes two Beasts, and one Beast makes three Cats, then the fact that a group empties means that the number of tokens of any given type is always known – it's just a linear equation, so we have a recurrence relation
< 1697242136 367344 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :call one change from one group to the other a "cycle"
< 1697242140 658623 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah a cycle of linked types making each other
< 1697242163 991587 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :because the apes need to be made from something
< 1697242165 138490 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :then, the number of tokens of any given type can be made to be some constant b, to the power of the number of cycles, plus a number that follows a repeating pattern from one cycle to the next
< 1697242236 207722 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the way you do that is to have some "baseline" types which follow a very simple pattern (e.g. you always have one more Ouphe than Homarid), and use those to build up more complicated patterns
< 1697242257 107280 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and for the baseline types, the timing of the tokens doesn't matter, it's set up so that they always finish changing over after the other types do
< 1697242284 827076 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now, for the non-baseline types, they are created either from baseline types or from each other, and we can make those follow a known pattern in quantity
< 1697242319 867454 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because we know how much are created from each other (the quantity is always known) and can use baseline types to adjust the quantity (e.g. if we want to increase the amount by one, we add one more Ouphe creating them and one less Homarid)
< 1697242332 683558 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, our program can make the quantities change in a pattern
< 1697242344 812595 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the quantity determines the time period between the first token being created and the tokens dying
< 1697242380 361302 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, we can effectively do arithmetic on these time moments, death time = creation time + X where we choose the value of X
< 1697242398 491570 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm
< 1697242408 238543 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, if two different non-baseline creature types each create the same creature type, then only the first one counts for the creation time
< 1697242431 894596 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which makes it possible to do conditionals, because it in effect gives a minimum operator
< 1697242496 287236 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :because they would get swept into the cycle
< 1697242521 329960 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the details are in the comments here: http://nethack4.org/esolangs/waterfall-to-flooding-waterfall.pl
< 1697242544 54790 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah i have that open and am swapping back and forth
< 1697242639 713290 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the one complexity is that there are a few cases where a creature needs to create another of the same group – that produces a sort of "sharp edge" transition that's used to handle control flow in the program being implemented (I implemented regular Waterfall Model, so this is control flow and the zeroing triggers)
< 1697242674 410736 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, there's never a loop within a group, and each cycle uses exponentially more tokens than the cycle before, so the groups still alternate as intended
< 1697242705 150525 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm glad my message got through to the thread, anyway – I don't have a Twitch account and couldn't find a reliable way to send the message
< 1697242734 984715 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah its silly the channels of communication
< 1697242736 875602 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Reddit has become surprisingly broken since it imploded, there were technical issues sending it (and, I gather from the thread, receiving it)
< 1697242841 222484 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :so basically there's cycles like A->B->C->D->A and X->Y->Z->X with one like Z->C link?
< 1697242892 891461 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, it's more like all of A,B,C create all of X,Y,Z with like one A->B link
< 1697242911 366252 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the trick is to deal with the "token creation time" and "token quantity" parts of it separately
< 1697242927 340624 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because once the first token has been created, you can add more and it doesn't change the amount of damage marked on the first token
< 1697242947 175023 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :as long as you create all the tokens before the first one dies, the timing of the later ones doesn't matter
< 1697243047 366754 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in more detail, the types are in two groups A and B, each of which is divided into baseline and non-baseline types
< 1697243057 965631 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :well adding more tokens effectively is the same as making fewer tokens later
< 1697243066 976194 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :baseline A types create baseline B types and vice versa, the timing doesn't hugely matter and the quantity follows a very simple pattern
< 1697243071 989394 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :except for the magnitude of the resulting flood
< 1697243097 729231 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the flood magnitudes are controlled to follow a simple pattern
< 1697243118 389200 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the baseline loop basically works to "top up" each token type to the flood magnitude required
< 1697243155 656251 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then there's a separate loop, where non-baseline A types create non-baseline B types and vice versa, and baseline A also creates non-baseline B and baseline B also creates non-baseline A in order to get the quantities right (but doesn't affect the timing)
< 1697243211 816981 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :btw, I used the term "velocity" in the proof to talk about the size of a flood, because it's the distance between the position of the flood of one type and the flood of the types it initially creates
< 1697243221 107656 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :so like for one clock always being 1 higher than the other, that i can see being done with initial conditions, and having a copied column in the program
< 1697243263 855020 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yep, you get into that position using initial conditions, and then ensure it always remains true throughout the program
< 1697243275 371819 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :except for a little 2x2 identity matrix at their intersection so the larger one can actually trigger?
< 1697243310 319842 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the actual baseline setup used in the proof is to have one "negative baseline", one "neutral baseline", and n "positive baselines" where n is the number of counters in the emulated program
< 1697243327 442174 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :negative baseline has quantity 1 below neutral; one of the positive baseline counters has quantity 1 above neutral, the others are equal
< 1697243361 176927 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the positives are connected in a sort of twisted loop, so that which positive baseline counter it is that has the higher quantity changes every large cycle (from one group to the other and back)
< 1697243440 975702 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :once you have that, you can make the quantities of a counter follow any pattern you like (with repeat length n) via varying how many tokens are created by which of the baselines
< 1697243468 896233 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. say you want the quantities to multiply by 1000 every cycle, and the zeroing triggers from non-baseline counters add up to 5 floods
< 1697243492 520504 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you need 95 from the baselines, and to control the exact quantity, you can choose how many of those 95 are from negative, how many from neutral, how many from each of the positives
< 1697243510 965310 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, 995, not 95
< 1697243514 681536 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah
< 1697243523 310057 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the new velocity wlil end up as 1000 times the old one plus a constant, and you can choose the constant
< 1697243547 632458 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and make it vary in any pattern with a repeat length of n
< 1697243672 611881 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :This is one of those times where having a vastly more inefficient computation method will actually make the resulting function grow much much faster lol.
< 1697243685 40912 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you want to try out the compiler, it can be run online at tio.run/#perl (you can copy-and-paste the compiler into the "program" box and write the program to compile in the "input" box)
< 1697243705 528844 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :FortyTwoBB: well, it's just one exponential slower than the original Waterfall Model, and uses a lot more counters
< 1697243744 827356 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :as such I think the resulting function probably grows more slowly, at least with this construction – you would get a faster-growing function in the original by writing the same program with fewer counters, then using the remaining counters to do an exponentiation
< 1697243784 239395 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it still fits well within creature type limits though
< 1697243811 606284 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah but we also get to have another card in the deck
< 1697243828 663990 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :because we dont need dralnu's crusade anymore
< 1697243864 483564 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I get to have another sideboard card in my competitive Turing-complete deck
< 1697243874 211002 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah
< 1697243893 294015 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :trying to make the deck Turing-complete still seems to damage competitive chances somewhat, though
< 1697243929 395136 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the decks which can naturally reach states which let you do anything tend to either a) care about their sideboard a lot or b) have no way to access it, forcing you to dilute the maindeck
< 1697243943 681490 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
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< 1697244186 782284 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the creature type usage seems to be 6 flooding counters per original counter, plus 8 flooding counters, plus 1 halt type, plus some way to get into the desired starting state (which in this construction requires additional creature types – as an alternative you could start with damage marked on some of the creatures, or toughness reductions on them)
< 1697244196 104096 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1697244201 512675 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but there's enough room to fit, say, a Spiral Rise interpreter
< 1697244257 987671 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah theres like 270 types now
< 1697244261 427542 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm trying to remember what architectures have interesting memory ordering quirks.
< 1697244278 863047 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, in addition to the link to the wiki, have a link to this conversation: https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2023-10-14.html#ld (would be a good thing to post in the MTG Salvation thread)
< 1697244290 818572 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :The two examples I always think of are: POWER doesn't necessarily have multicopy atomicity; Alpha has the split-cache issue with data dependencies.
< 1697244331 429327 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I think I'm forgetting other wacky behaviors (I vaguely remember there was some SPARC-specific thing?).
< 1697244391 880905 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: I find architectures with more guarantees more difficult because it's hard to remember exactly what is and isn't guaranteed
< 1697244443 163430 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, why does x86 have the SFENCE instruction? normally the memory ordering guarantees make that a no-op, but its existence implies that there are cases where it does something
< 1697244444 504068 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah im posting it, and I did try the complier and it made a reasonable looking output
< 1697244478 881325 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think SFENCE is relevant for non-temporal store visibility.
< 1697244497 930001 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: but only if you want to overwrite it with another store? it doesn't give store/load ordering
< 1697244502 293538 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you need MFENCE for that
< 1697244524 221445 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think it's particularly about overwriting it.
< 1697244542 241607 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :It certainly doesn't give store-load ordering or flush the store buffer or anything like that.
< 1697244562 90516 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :FortyTwoBB: by the way, thanks to all of you in the MTG Salvation thread for working on this – the Turing-completeness construction is so much neater and simpler than when I started working on this
< 1697244591 382337 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :so that makes me hopeful for things to work out. I'll need to check some more but you haven't made a mistake so far and this looks good.
< 1697244599 808273 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :But in the classic example where you do store_nt(a, ...); store_nt(b, ...); store(is_ready_flag, true); , I think you need SFENCE to guarantee that if the flag store is visible, so are the a and b stores.
< 1697244614 808865 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Whereas for regular stores on x86 that behavior is guaranteed, of course.)
< 1697244626 749943 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: ah right, to pair with an LFENCE on some other processor
< 1697244656 56857 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :no thank you! i bashed my head against this and though it was game over for it when the damage doubling version was not TC.
< 1697244665 590244 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you only ned the LFENCE if you have a non-temporal load, too?
< 1697244677 187430 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've never used LFENCE.
< 1697244683 483110 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :regular reads can be reordered by the processor
< 1697244698 290512 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you read memory location X, then read memory location Y, then Y can be given an older value than the value you just read from X
< 1697244700 916428 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :On x86 all regular loads behave like load-acquire.
< 1697244710 192400 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no
< 1697244713 399412 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :And all regular stores behave like store-release.
< 1697244718 762565 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :regular stores are release, but regular loads are relaxed
< 1697244728 690348 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you need to use lfence a lot in multithreaded code
< 1697244758 843356 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :FortyTwoBB: I was so worried about making mistakes
< 1697244770 793007 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think that's true.
< 1697244771 562763 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wasn't confident this was right until I had the Flooding Waterfall Model interpreter actually running programs
< 1697244795 406148 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :E.g. https://godbolt.org/z/brfjbEKEx
< 1697244863 62475 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1697244877 755861 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah if this works it solves our layers problem and shaves a cardslot
< 1697244886 469965 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1697244929 208256 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, https://stackoverflow.com/a/50780314 says that even the use I mentioned isn't necessary:
< 1697244932 591125 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :"_mm_lfence is almost never useful as an actual load fence. Loads can only be weakly ordered when loading from WC (Write-Combining) memory regions, like video ram. Even movntdqa (_mm_stream_load_si128) is still strongly ordered on normal (WB = write-back) memory, and doesn't do anything to reduce cache pollution."
< 1697244942 586996 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1697244987 38204 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well I'll need to take some time to go over this, but it looks very very good.
< 1697245027 865986 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: I was testing on godbolt too, you seem to be right
< 1697245052 533829 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…this means that I have been using a lot more fences than necessary in my x86 code!
< 1697245242 428124 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm wondering how out-of-order execution even works, if it isn't allowed to reorder the loads – presumably it tries to keep all the values it's working with in exclusive cache so that it knows they haven't been written by other processors, and just remembers whether it's written them itself
< 1697245263 928826 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1697245639 236130 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I am dreading the technical issues that will happen the *next* time I try to get in contact with the MTG Busy Beaver time, this time was bad enough…
< 1697245721 474216 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: My vague understanding is that it's pretty speculative.
< 1697245763 130162 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :So it can maybe reorder some loads speculatively and verify later that it turns out to be OK.
< 1697245768 536621 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I don't really know the details at all.
< 1697245772 797163 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh right, you do a speculative load out of order, then check whether it was correct when you retire
< 1697245789 178850 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and end up with a whole load of timing-based sidechannels that end up leaking kernel internals and causing huge security issues
< 1697245837 634739 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I probably knew that at some point
< 1697245858 855001 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :How does this work, though? Say you have "load A; load B;", and B is in your cache but A isn't. You speculatively do the B load while waiting for A.
< 1697245897 79954 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :How can you tell when you get A whether you need to reload B?
< 1697245923 229043 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :don't you just throw away all your speculative effort when retiring the "reload B" instruction?
> 1697245937 14005 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07^!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117886&oldid=117824 5* 03Ninesquared81 5* (+432) 10/* Examples */
< 1697245947 387733 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, the sequence is dispatch load A → dispatch load B → calculation based on B → calculation based on A → retire load A → retire load B
< 1697245997 479077 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :by the time you retire the load of B, a) you know whether B has changed since you dispatched the load, b) nothing that was based on B has actually affected memory yet
< 1697246015 789125 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so one simple solution would be to just flush the pipeline, although I suspect actual processors have some faster way to recover
< 1697246036 230249 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* when retiring the "load B" instruction
< 1697246046 572284 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, I'm probably confused.
< 1697246063 680309 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :My concern is that another core did "store A; store B", and e.g. was preempted between the two stores.
< 1697246069 864335 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Uh, wait.
< 1697246075 747182 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :It does "store B; store A", oops.
< 1697246082 471215 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sorry, I was thinking complete nonsense.
< 1697246117 902862 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, the general pattern is store B; sfence; store A on one processor, and load A; lfence; load B on the other (delete fences if you have a processor that doesn't need them)
< 1697246124 884850 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yep.
< 1697246156 599412 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, when you ignore my nonsense this makes sense.
< 1697246164 253406 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :You just need to retire in order.
< 1697246187 99018 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which x86(-64) does, of course
< 1697246207 895950 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, this conversation has made me realise why retiring load instructions is important
< 1697246425 371433 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's nothing like this for stores, right?
< 1697246432 604242 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :You just need to flush the store buffer in FIFO order.
< 1697246528 478824 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :stores are confusing because they happen at the retire, so the execution units don't have to do anything special at all – all the complexity is in how the cache works
< 1697246628 2695 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :At retire they just go in the store buffer, not the cache, I assume, right?
< 1697246635 418339 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1697246651 245644 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :some quick searching implies that this is the primary reason why mfence is not a no-op on x86
< 1697246662 622961 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, that's my understanding.
< 1697246662 825693 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because a load from cache can cross a store that's still in the store buffer
< 1697246700 86867 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Still in another core's store buffer, specifically.
< 1697246713 28621 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, processors know which addresses they've stored to
< 1697246725 825369 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :The classic store-load ordering thing -- you do "store-load" and you want the load to only happen after the store is globally visible.
< 1697246743 778376 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :So you need cross-core communication to happen between the store and the load.
< 1697246759 231683 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Whereas for store-store, load-load, and load-store, you don't need that.
< 1697246976 381478 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, https://stackoverflow.com/a/62480523 describes this.
< 1697246985 846063 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Uh, describes the memory order mis-speculation thing.
< 1697246994 278168 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :And it says there's a performance counter for it?
< 1697247080 446004 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are a huge number of performance counters, not all of which have obvious meanings
< 1697247092 158892 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is the sort of thing that I'd definitely expect to have a performance counter
< 1697247118 871119 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :But it doesn't say what it's called and I'm trying to find it.
< 1697247141 555141 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is it machine_clears.memory_ordering?
< 1697247145 137110 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or is that something else?
< 1697247162 49125 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, it's probably https://perfmon-events.intel.com/index.html?pltfrm=icelake.html&evnt=MACHINE_CLEARS.MEMORY_ORDERING
< 1697247166 95745 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yep, I think so.
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> 1697260026 8411 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Trampolines14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117888&oldid=117261 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+406) 10fixed velocities for trampolines, and added pipes again
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> 1697268758 608798 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Aadenboy 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:Text BABA 0.webp10]]": BABA text from Baba is You
> 1697271656 844632 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Baba Is You14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117893&oldid=88244 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-6706) 10completely overhauled the page :P
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< 1697273408 158445 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi everyone!
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> 1697279195 798632 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Nice14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117894&oldid=117879 5* 03None1 5* (+182) 10Content on this wiki must be public domain or equivalent
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> 1697279623 15974 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117901&oldid=117900 5* 03None1 5* (+10) 10/* Declaration */
< 1697280869 631884 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.149.238.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
> 1697281025 383035 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117902&oldid=117901 5* 03None1 5* (+60) 10/* I/O */
> 1697281161 283213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117903&oldid=117902 5* 03None1 5* (+229) 10/* Commands */
> 1697281240 136584 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117904&oldid=117903 5* 03None1 5* (+130) 10/* Commands */
< 1697284049 380406 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and, I assume, even with all the overhead for the flooded encoding, a Turing-universal machine will fit into the 280 or so creature types?
< 1697284155 337925 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"but there's enough room to fit, say, a Spiral Rise interpreter" => ah
< 1697284607 714578 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"<ais523> how out-of-order execution even works, if it isn't allowed to reorder the loads – presumably it tries to keep all the values it's working with in exclusive cache" => that's what I would think, since accessing main memory is so slow that at that point out of order execution doesn't help much, except… doesn't hyperthreading share the L1D cache between two threads of execution that alternate 
< 1697284613 722520 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :instructions in a single core? and don't all the processor cores in a processor share their L3 cache usually?
< 1697284688 3356 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I never really tried to understand x86's multi-threaded memory model, I figure I don't need to write code that communicates between threads so much that the optimization matters for me.
< 1697285338 522856 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder how efficiently that M:tG construction can simulate computation
< 1697285403 560811 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( Will it ever be tournament viable :P )
< 1697285464 439958 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( "Don't worry, we're just computing the 5th Fibonacci number; it'll be done in 5 minutes." )
< 1697285498 380905 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I meant the other efficient, as in how slow it is asymptotically to simulate arbitrary programs
< 1697285528 594472 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably just like two to eight levels of exponential
< 1697286079 185043 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Tried making a bf interepter in Scratch, but I coudln't get it to work. Not even "+." worked as expected.
< 1697286190 293954 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can't even share it with text due to how many blocks it has.
< 1697286340 948715 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Should I give up?
< 1697286781 30168 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: that's less funny :-P
< 1697286795 917356 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:5510:320f:787:e9f6 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1697286974 384949 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:a5ba:d2c0:c66c:4d1f JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
< 1697287120 543601 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Since you weren't answering, I'll give up by myself...
< 1697287528 131794 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
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< 1697289804 927563 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1697289903 57714 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :<b_jonas> I wonder how efficiently that M:tG construction can simulate computation ← it's exponentially slower than The Waterfall Model, which if using the Spiral Rise implementation to fit into the required amount of memory, is exponentially slower than a tag system
< 1697289908 771053 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and tag systems are polynomially slower than Turing Machine
< 1697289914 266337 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* Turing machines
< 1697289934 419903 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, actually not that bad as these things go
< 1697289983 789268 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(also, there may be a faster programming technique using the same sort of setups with the same cards)
< 1697290212 205249 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right
< 1697290341 412710 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one thing I am interested in is esolang interpreters that can optimise out all the levels of exponential explosion in this sort of simulation
< 1697290365 171232 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :optimising out one level is normally fairly easy – both ratiofall and floodfall can do it (via different mechanisms)
< 1697290371 551763 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it would be nice to get the optimisation to recurse
< 1697290693 775850 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, and for M:tG that doesn't even sound too impossible, by simulating stacks
< 1697290714 197081 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's just hard if you want a somewhat competitive deck
< 1697290951 175006 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, I am mostly interested in golfing the implementation so that the rest of the deck can be as competitive as possible
< 1697291007 497115 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a deck like Ruby Storm can make hundreds of mana and play every card in its sideboard – but because it can do that, its sideboard is normally full of useful cards that help it win in various different situations that might come up during a game, rather than actual sideboard cards
< 1697291017 914960 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what's the newest card that seems to help (as in, you can't just replace it with older cards) these days?
< 1697291022 898090 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, using up sideboard slots on Turing-completeness cards reduces the win rate even in game 1
< 1697291049 127032 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is the hundreds of mana colorless?
< 1697291079 414883 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's red, you get some amount of other colors too
< 1697291119 161283 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. Ruby Storm commonly runs Inspired Tinkering in the sideboard, which generates treasure tokens as one of its effects
< 1697291123 690903 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name Inspired Tinkering
< 1697291126 226634 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :No output.
< 1697291158 275532 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but this means that if you want lots of non-red mana you can't cut the Inspired Tinkering from the sideboard, even though it's one of the less important sideboard cards
< 1697291212 167472 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the deck also runs Manamorphose, but that can't generate too much colored mana without decking you out, unless you have some way to reshuffle cards back into your library or some way to protect yourself against decking)
< 1697291327 883469 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the color is probably more required if you want to set up your computer than if you just want to win many games
< 1697291377 293734 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, once the combo fully goes off you can win with just about any damage spell – the deck has copy effects, so you can win with just one Lightning Bolt if you want to
< 1697291379 661156 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or does it not matter because you go off infinitely powerful before you need the color?
< 1697291401 186485 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so most of the sideboard is there for if the deck only partially goes off and needs to try to salvage a fizzled combo
< 1697291403 770976 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, before you need all colors
< 1697291422 761071 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a fizzled combo generally wouldn't have non-red mana available, so the salvaging cards are red
< 1697291432 341870 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :things like Empty the Warrens and Galvanic Relay
< 1697291451 911801 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and your opponent will probably have a lot of the most annoying disruption
< 1697291459 857461 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :does this construction only require one player for computation, or does it depend on cooperation?
< 1697291460 412377 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :some of the opponents at least
< 1697291474 334196 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :FireFly: it requires an opponent but they don't have to be cooperative
< 1697291476 284534 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :FireFly: the goal for this construction is to not require cooperation by the opponent
< 1697291487 478963 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, *nod*
< 1697291490 748386 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's why it's so hard to make it competitive
< 1697291511 934313 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: watching Ruby Storm play through disruption is glorious, it basically keeps on trying combos until the opponent runs out of counterspells, and brute-forces its way through prison pieces
< 1697291531 130891 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in cooperative you can usually just spend 50 turns to draw most of your deck and then set up a fragile combo
< 1697291542 823057 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it can even win through Trinisphere if it's given enough time to sculpt its hand
< 1697291569 713644 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the main cards that stop it are Deafening Silence and Maddening Hex, which can't be burst through simply by making more mana
< 1697291674 360796 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is possible that some other Storm variant, that is less sideboard-dependent, would be more competitive after you replace 6-7 sideboard cards with a Turing-complete construction though
< 1697291675 986897 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm still curious, what's the newest card that's useful for the computation setup
< 1697291700 533796 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry, I tried to work it out and then got distracted, for most of the cards old cards are acceptable
< 1697291704 523438 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably Arcbond?
< 1697291706 672699 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name Arcbond
< 1697291707 783650 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Arcbond \ 2R \ Instant \ Choose target creature. Whenever that creature is dealt damage this turn, it deals that much damage to each other creature and each player. \ FRF-R
< 1697291726 980826 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are other ways to repeatedly damage every creature in an unstoppable loop, though
< 1697291751 154227 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I See
< 1697291755 993927 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but double Arcbond is very efficient – the problem with it is that you need a lifegain source in order to avoid the game ending due to burn damage
< 1697291807 20829 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(also it is hard to ensure that the triggers always stack in the correct order – the current construction uses an Arcbond that was controlled by the turn player as it resolved, with everything else controlled by their opponent)
< 1697291880 254292 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :everything else controlled by the opponent? does that mean you need Donate?
< 1697291896 171944 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or is there some other card that helps with that
< 1697291906 312641 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name Fractured Identity
< 1697291907 387050 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Fractured Identity \ 3WU \ Sorcery \ Exile target nonland permanent. Each player other than its controller creates a token that's a copy of it. \ C17-R
< 1697291925 185274 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you need to be able to a) make a huge number of tokens and b) give them to your opponent
< 1697291927 888758 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, that's better
< 1697291933 913443 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that plays double duty
< 1697291954 474735 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Fractured Identity plays double duty, but it implies you need to add an un-exiler to the deck
< 1697291968 253250 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, hmm, maybe not
< 1697291996 380688 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that card is newer than Arcbond
< 1697292009 454262 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's not part of the computation, it's part of the setup
< 1697292015 600511 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I didn't realise you were counting those too
< 1697292022 486785 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure what I'm counting
< 1697292027 488299 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but yes, you need an unexiler in order to create multiple tokens
< 1697292044 275434 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know that there's power creep so new cards are likely useful if you want to just not lose
< 1697292048 72842 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name Mirror of Fate
< 1697292049 118387 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Mirror of Fate \ 5 \ Artifact \ {T}, Sacrifice Mirror of Fate: Choose up to seven face-up exiled cards you own. Exile all the cards from your library, then put the chosen cards on top of your library. \ M10-R
< 1697292052 874393 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name Riftsweeper
< 1697292053 867047 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Riftsweeper \ 1G \ Creature -- Elf Shaman \ 2/2 \ When Riftsweeper enters the battlefield, choose target face-up exiled card. Its owner shuffles it into their library. \ FUT-U, MMA-U
< 1697292059 384631 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name Coax from the Blind Eternities
< 1697292060 371595 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Coax from the Blind Eternities \ 2U \ Sorcery \ You may choose an Eldrazi card you own from outside the game or in exile, reveal that card, and put it into your hand. \ EMN-R
< 1697292093 186333 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think those are the most viable options for unexilers
< 1697292106 383616 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there aren't a whole lot of unexilers printed
< 1697292140 353154 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name Pull from Eternity
< 1697292141 347206 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Pull from Eternity \ W \ Instant \ Put target face-up exiled card into its owner's graveyard. \ TSP-U
< 1697292151 254833 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think Pull from Eternity was the first one
< 1697292156 62079 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :alternatively, you can run a create-a-token effect and a donate effect separately, but the unexilers are useful for creating infinite (rather than large finite) loops and setting up an arbitrarily large program
< 1697292175 911949 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Pull from Eternity doesn't work because you then have to get the card out of the graveyard
< 1697292202 775442 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :don't you need something to replicate instants anyway, for other cards?
< 1697292221 112672 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ruby Storm is based around the card Bonus Round which copies instants
< 1697292239 269654 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's one of the reasons I wanted to use it as a base – it runs four copies of an instant-copier maindeck
< 1697292267 492166 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so that saves space in finding a way to copy your instants and sorceries
< 1697292273 610480 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh
< 1697292281 68656 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name Bonus Round
< 1697292282 195319 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :No output.
< 1697292287 592175 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :too new, I thoughti t would be
< 1697292290 354652 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that does mandatory copy, so it just tries to go infinite if you have two of them?
< 1697292298 132849 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a cast trigger
< 1697292307 940773 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it goes exponential rather than infinite
< 1697292309 645031 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah right
< 1697292326 520486 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :exponential? isn't it just linear?
< 1697292336 710758 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's linear in the number of copies of Bonus Round which resolved
< 1697292347 388992 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is exponential in the number that were cast, because they copy each other
< 1697292351 774476 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah
< 1697292599 647254 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :What are you talking about>
< 1697292631 341645 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :building a Turing-complete programming language inside a card game
< 1697292669 14802 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually there are two games that can manage it, Magic: the Gathering and Netrunner
< 1697292691 741107 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but Magic finds it much easier, we're wondering if it's possible to do it with an opponent trying to stop you (implying that you play a competitive deck)
< 1697299167 614235 :Guest55!~Guest55@ool-944bd88a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Guest55
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> 1697301326 567510 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Capsule14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117905&oldid=117890 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+59) 10Fix link to userpage, add categories
> 1697303105 865136 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07N14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117906&oldid=44078 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+13) 10Deadlink
> 1697303316 117604 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Metat14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117907&oldid=36168 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+52) 10Categories
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< 1697304635 267850 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi everyone!
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> 1697315852 152764 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sultan's daughter14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117908&oldid=91441 5* 03CreeperBomb 5* (-4) 10Corrected punctuation, added necessary conjunction
> 1697315979 6308 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Oifi14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117909&oldid=115346 5* 03CreeperBomb 5* (-1) 10/* Conclusion */
> 1697316448 182351 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Neg14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117910&oldid=70733 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+53) 10Categories
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> 1697322858 868519 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Three Star Programmer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117912&oldid=74391 5* 03Tux1 5* (+105) 10
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> 1697329221 654226 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Make me blush14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117913&oldid=116815 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+207) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the Make me blush programming language on GitHub and introduced the category tag Implemented.
> 1697329276 32543 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Make me blush14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117914&oldid=117913 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+4) 10Rectified the ASCII Loop examples, the same was inflicted with two mistakes: (1) The token becuase in lieu of because, (2) a missing and.
> 1697329546 353184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Make me blush14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117915&oldid=117914 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+499) 10Supplemented a character-based cat program and introduced a truth-machine example.
> 1697329848 634188 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Make me blush14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117916&oldid=117915 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+202) 10Reformatted the command listing as a table.
< 1697331357 1694 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
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< 1697331439 538828 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1697332806 358589 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Three Star Programmer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117917&oldid=117912 5* 03Ais523 5* (-60) 10merge "implementations" and "external resources" sections, these are normally combined and there isn't an obvious reason for them to be separate
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> 1697337196 537813 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Trampolines14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117918&oldid=117889 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+479) 10new commands
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> 1697346130 500465 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07B sharp14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117919&oldid=75182 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+38) 10wrongtitle
< 1697346167 52249 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1697348392 421067 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07A?b.14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117920&oldid=105539 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+13) 10'not capitalised'
< 1697354195 566569 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:81f2:cbc9:bac5:9e87 JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
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< 1697366563 429461 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly NICK :Luci-ghoule
< 1697368117 559950 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :b_jonas
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> 1697377269 544930 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07F!--14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117921&oldid=112716 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+159) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the F!-- programming language on GitHub and changed the category tag Unimplemented to Implemented.
> 1697377463 453672 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07F!--14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117922&oldid=117921 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+281) 10Supplemented a juxtaposition of the commands defined for F!--, F!, and Deadfish.
> 1697377854 826427 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07B2C14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117923&oldid=115061 5* 03None1 5* (+21) 10/* Hello World (last because it's the hardest one) */  Fixed Hello World program that previously prints "Hdkkn Mehbz/"
> 1697377962 312517 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07B2C14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117924&oldid=117923 5* 03None1 5* (+2576) 10Added JavaScript interpreter and implemented category tag
> 1697378145 166703 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07B2C14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117925&oldid=117924 5* 03None1 5* (-10) 10/* Interpreter */
> 1697378857 230028 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Interpret Esolangs Online14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117926&oldid=115598 5* 03None1 5* (+10) 10/* Introduction */  Interpret Esolangs Online now supports B2C
< 1697380813 619908 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-21-195-194.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
> 1697384910 588023 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117927&oldid=117750 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+163) 10Add an implementation in Haskell
< 1697385401 67047 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-21-195-194.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, new plan.  Scrapping the Scheme compiler.  Just gonna write the state transformation functions in Lua.
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< 1697387427 493229 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah yes, that's a good way to get an esoteric language. plan a domain-specific language that you want to use for some particular purpose, then find that you don't want to use it after all, ends up unused and esoteric
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< 1697388875 614159 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] FortyTwoBB
< 1697389155 890793 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :@ais523 does flooding waterfall get tripped up by having clocks with minimum values? Because Xathrid Necromancer must share a type with the creature that triggers it, effectively every waterclock starts at a minimum of [the sum of their row]. We can add more indestructible creatures to flatten the disruption for each clock.
< 1697389155 938750 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :Unknown command, try @list
> 1697389253 674955 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NONE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117928&oldid=117616 5* 03Jaip 5* (-20) 10
< 1697389320 930434 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :So if every clock has 413612 or whatever dummy creatures pumping it up, the first one to fall to 413611 will be the first to zero. The dummy creatures don't affect the multiplier because they don't die.
< 1697389780 401491 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think this shift works a similar way it did for normal FWC?
< 1697390158 966233 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1697390230 540393 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi FortyTwoBB
< 1697390237 198840 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :reading now
< 1697390240 932902 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I just got online)
< 1697390311 306374 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the problem is that the tokens come in with a fairly large toughness, based on the number of zeroing triggers that mention them, rather than 1 like they're supposed to
< 1697390362 354732 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that adjusts the length of time between first token creation and token death, but without adjusting the multiplier on the zeroing trigger
< 1697390431 980230 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so this can be compensated for by making all the tokens have the same toughness boost, yes – this will spread the cycles out in time more, but the computation will still proceed the same way with the same numbers, just with a small delay as it changes from one cycle to the next
< 1697390451 479947 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this fix doesn't work for arbitrary Flooding Waterfall Model programs but does work for the programs generated by the compiler)
< 1697390468 447234 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also I suspect you don't need multiple copies of Coat of Arms in order to handle steady damage values greater than 1
< 1697390484 506893 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah having 3 CoA is easy
< 1697390500 255172 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would expect you could just make the zeroing triggers larger to compensate
< 1697390524 196610 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the baseline counters used by the compiler can compensate for almost anything, it is a pretty flexible construction
< 1697390525 680613 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :But that requires more material than just making 2 artifacts
< 1697390534 574982 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, I see
< 1697390556 496976 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you want to save on tokens, so a token Coat of Arms is cheaper than a token Xathrid Necromancer
< 1697390569 548539 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :no they are the same cost
< 1697390574 66568 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, at least, not massively more expensive, so one Coat of Arms is cheaper than millions of Necromancers
< 1697390581 985577 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah that
< 1697390627 737794 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :incidentally, as long as your Bishop of Wings / Xathrid Necromancer / etc. has two creature types
< 1697390634 992707 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it does not need to be indestructible in order to make the construction work
< 1697390645 372448 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah we know
< 1697390655 580503 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah good
< 1697390664 477083 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is a bit hard to remember what has and hasn't been discovered in the thread
< 1697390670 208364 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :seeing as it's over 200 pages long now
< 1697390722 918504 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :but we need exactly either !martyr of spores or !Resolute Watchdog and might as well go with the indestructible option.
< 1697390733 459414 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I tried to reread it yesterday to figure out how the iterated (and hyperiterated) busy beavers work, but got a little confused
< 1697390737 637074 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name martyr of spores
< 1697390739 717905 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Martyr of Spores \ G \ Creature -- Human Shaman \ 1/1 \ {1}, Reveal X green cards from your hand, Sacrifice Martyr of Spores: Target creature gets +X/+X until end of turn. \ CSP-C
< 1697390747 351385 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name resolute watchdog
< 1697390748 491271 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :No output.
< 1697390760 561744 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the bot is somewhat outdated in terms of its M:tG knowledge
< 1697390782 503833 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :1 sac self: target creature gaind indestructable until eot
< 1697390788 595431 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :gains*
< 1697390797 348975 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw, the hardest part of the construction seems to me to be to make sure that there are no infinite loops in it
< 1697390810 977758 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, really? Lol
< 1697390817 529375 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah of course
< 1697390890 545817 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :btw, do you know of any good substitutes for Arcbond? I have been a bit frustrated with my "competitive Turing-complete deck" project because I am so close to getting it down to 6 cards (beyond those that already exist in the deck I'm basing this on)
< 1697390931 771578 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but need a seventh to prevent the turn player from having the option to die from their own Arcbond triggers while their lifegain triggers from Bishop of Wings are still on the stack
< 1697390933 479625 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's why I'm not sure visuvian duplimancy is ok, because now there can be waiting triggers to make a token of something that would have fizzled if the copy effect was a spell like fated infatuation
< 1697390954 966826 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :no theres nothing better than arcbond
< 1697390968 157244 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are four obviously required cards (Arcbond, Bishop of Wings or an equivalent, Coat of Arms, Artificial Evolution)
< 1697390996 872512 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and two cards is not *quite* enough to cover token creation, token donation, and keeping the turn player alive
< 1697391020 79807 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah
< 1697391048 188279 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(also stock Ruby Storm doesn't have any infinite loops in it, unless I missed one, so I had the opposite problem from your thread – I needed to add a way to create an infinite loop so that I could set up arbitrarily large programs)
< 1697391072 823054 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my current attempt is to add Fractured Identity, Riftsweeper, and any random lifelinker
< 1697391120 856487 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the deck naturally contains Inspired Tinkering , Past In Flames and Bonus Round, which collectively give you an infinite but somewhat stupid combo with Fractured Identity and Riftsweeper)
< 1697391163 537102 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(in addition to Fractured Identity + Riftsweeper being able to give the opponent tokens without losing the original card)
< 1697391263 571937 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah that looks optimal to me
< 1697391290 826158 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :just need some lifelink source
< 1697391297 101280 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :or equivalent
< 1697391304 142568 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name Soulfire Grand Master
< 1697391305 158495 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Soulfire Grand Master \ 1W \ Creature -- Human Monk \ 2/2 \ Lifelink \ Instant and sorcery spells you control have lifelink. \ {2}{(u/r)}{(u/r)}: The next time you cast an instant or sorcery spell from your hand this turn, put that card into your hand instead of into your graveyard as it resolves. \ FRF-M
< 1697391315 173890 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that has the most relevant ability I could find on a lifelinker
< 1697391333 746056 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :having both lifelink and an infinite
< 1697391349 116695 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, i was trying to remember that exact card lol
< 1697391351 459585 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I couldn't find a single other card to pair it with
< 1697391459 676978 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, I was wondering if that lingering effect could be used as a counter for some sort of stage construction, but it can't, it has the Netrunner-style wording where it doesn't stack with itself properly
< 1697391541 212110 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah it just goes infinite or doesnt do much
< 1697391597 491180 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :♥
< 1697391650 100903 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been kind-of wondering whether I should just try to find a maindeck slot for The One Ring
< 1697391738 988948 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ooh, Last Laugh is probably usable, but seems to have no advantages over Arcbond
< 1697391742 188739 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name Last Laugh
< 1697391743 179506 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Last Laugh \ 2BB \ Enchantment \ Whenever a permanent other than Last Laugh is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, Last Laugh deals 1 damage to each creature and each player. \ When no creatures are on the battlefield, sacrifice Last Laugh. \ TOR-R
< 1697391766 90429 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :same with like massacre girl
< 1697391821 366995 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Massacre Girl might actually work for my constructoin
< 1697391829 838659 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because it doesn't hurt players
< 1697391830 570848 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :arcbond is unique in that it always triggers itself the same amount no matter how many creatures die
< 1697391842 481618 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.213.254.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1697391845 318058 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :♥
< 1697391862 170234 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for me, the actual number of triggers doesn't matter as long as there are enough of them, because they just pile up on the bottom of tge stack
< 1697391864 7012 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah you just need to do a bit more setup to have a clock that always dies
< 1697391913 125466 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I agree that making the clock die would be a problem – you probably have to kill all the token creators
< 1697392077 834242 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :well with bishop of wings, you get to keep them alive
< 1697392102 852582 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah you dont need a lifelinker
< 1697392112 286109 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :they control bishop of wings
< 1697392117 440411 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :you control arcbond
< 1697392124 80358 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but arcbond damages yourself
< 1697392147 154338 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah but you can keep a bishop to keep yourself alive
< 1697392160 227118 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the problem is that you get to stack the bishop triggers and arcbond triggers
< 1697392169 696102 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and if you always stack the bishop triggers on the bottom, you lose
< 1697392180 766411 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it isn't a perfect choiceless loop
< 1697392189 786104 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :of course, this doesn't matter for your construction, because you can choose to stack them correctly
< 1697392198 63819 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah
< 1697392206 934776 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it is still tc?
< 1697392240 232785 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's more than one definition of Turing-complete
< 1697392259 973978 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :because a nondeterministic turing machine that has the option to catch fire at any step would still be turing complete no?
< 1697392261 225206 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for the Netrunner Turing-complete proof, I had to resort to "it's Turing-complete unless a player makes a decision that causes them to immediately lose the game"
< 1697392308 392310 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for Magic, it's possible to get a zero-choices Turing-completeness construction, which is more interesting than a "Turing complete unless you choose to lose" construction, although both would normally be considered to be Turing-complete
< 1697392320 164129 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :♥
< 1697392333 867879 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but zero-choices is nice because you can F6 (or the in-person equivalent) and just have the program run itself
< 1697392336 881084 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :o/
< 1697392350 3017 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good old self-running Programs alias Multiverses    😉
< 1697392352 509416 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Flooding Waterfall Model doesn't run on MTGO, incidentally, because the numbers get too large too quickly)
< 1697392367 824727 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah you can set triggers to auto stack in a certain order
< 1697392376 741127 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then f6
< 1697392416 252905 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Can You explain the Niagara-Falls to me, please?    😉
< 1697392438 719446 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :APic: what, the real life geographical landmark? or the various waterfall-based esolangs?
< 1697392449 120464 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Both
< 1697392450 944098 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Pleae
< 1697392451 722564 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :+s
< 1697392457 923339 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the esolangs are defined at https://esolangs.org/wiki/The_Waterfall_Model and https://esolangs.org/wiki/Flooding_Waterfall_Model
< 1697392458 818853 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1697392465 192938 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Some People seem to like going down with wooden Barrels
< 1697392468 123756 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :ktnx
< 1697392482 385741 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and there is a tutorial for the former at http://nethack4.org/esolangs/waterfall/
< 1697392496 529062 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unfortunately I can't explain the real-life waterfall
< 1697392524 292874 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Aaah, good old Magick
< 1697392527 81546 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Flooding Waterfall Model is rather harder to understand than the original because each of the waterclocks is associated with two counters rather than one)
< 1697392540 280243 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay, at least You tried, ktnx    😌
< 1697392574 983483 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good old JSON ♥
< 1697392596 657426 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah mtgo/mtga etc really don't like large numbers
< 1697392662 85929 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I did the polyraptor forerunner of the empire combo in limited to get several million 5/5
< 1697392703 29453 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think I've ever done a large combo in limited – the best I ever managed was winning both games of the same match with Coalition Victory
< 1697392726 399861 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, my opponent had mostly only played multiplayer, meaning that they were playing much more defensively than a typical limited player would, so it doesn't really count
< 1697392826 678013 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah that's still pretty rare
< 1697392892 779531 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :♥
< 1697393102 272324 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:90a6:3649:bcf5:a397 JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
< 1697393191 831275 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ooh, actually getting halting to work is pretty easy using Massacre Girl and Bishop of Wings – Bishop of Wings shares no creature types with the creatures it creates, so you just use Human or Cleric as the halt counter
< 1697393234 816523 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is probably best for my construction because I don't actually need an output from it, just halt / non-halt
< 1697393300 78577 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah
< 1697393314 447320 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it does have the problem of your combo finisher giving the opponent double-exponentially large amounts of life, making it hard to cause an automatic game win
< 1697393353 990071 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it's probably possible to set up a computation that creates a token army on one side of the field or the other
< 1697393368 764270 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :depending on the result
< 1697393382 106621 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah and then you make more coat of arms and use the giant creatures to win
< 1697393510 274352 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :♥
< 1697393591 248918 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure if the coat of arms would even matter at that point, quadratic doesn't put a dent in double-exponential
< 1697393634 488718 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :likewise, Flooding Waterfall Model doesn't give you a meaningful amount of extra output compared to the original (and may even give less) because exponential growth is trivially small compared to busy beaver numbers
< 1697393863 723690 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh right you cant convert the bb output into coat of arms
< 1697393869 799400 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :yay
< 1697394073 613774 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1697394092 888153 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi everyone
< 1697394210 471350 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi Europe2048
< 1697394575 778725 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :FortyTwoBB: by the way, what's the best way for me to contact the rest of you when I have something to say?
< 1697394747 233811 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :How are you?
< 1697394756 473839 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Just let Your Client stay here 24/7
< 1697394776 333040 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :APic: my computer isn't switched on 24/7, nor is my Internet connection
< 1697394781 540509 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I read the logs quite a lot
< 1697394790 280698 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Europe2048: tired, as usual
< 1697394803 287291 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :What are you working on?
< 1697394810 543080 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a parser generator
< 1697394832 450581 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am fed up with existing parser generators, and feel like I could do better
< 1697394835 783119 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :What's a parser generator? Also, what language?
< 1697394879 221037 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait, it's Bishop of Wings now? 
< 1697394887 981429 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought it was one of two other similar cards
< 1697394888 720844 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a parser generator is a program that generates a parser, and a parser is a program or subroutine that converts text input into a machine-readable form
< 1697394893 979509 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I switch my Zarniwoop off when i go to sleep too, but i have a VM in the Switzerlands
< 1697394900 9953 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it depends on what specific construction we're talking about
< 1697394923 215830 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Bishop of Wings is the most convenient in most respects, but the lifegain trigger often screws things up
< 1697394927 71569 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not following Magic at all these days so I shouldn't be surprised that there are useful cards that I hadn't heard of
< 1697394929 528782 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: So it's like a [language]-to-assembly converter.
< 1697394940 414012 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right?
< 1697394943 608185 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so some constructions use, e.g., Xathrid Necromancer instead
< 1697394946 132439 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Europe2048: not to assembly
< 1697394954 833984 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :just to a data structure that represents the original program
< 1697394975 60337 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :going all the way to assembly is called a compiler; compilers will normally contain a parser but they have other parts too
< 1697395001 127116 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I don't have any Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, etc. cards.
< 1697395007 672885 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good old Lexer
< 1697395029 800411 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Europe2048: that's probably for the best, they are not good value for money
< 1697395030 486054 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :APic: I don't have any Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, etc. cards.
< 1697395038 401889 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Europe2048: So?
< 1697395055 69259 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :But have you heard of PokeFarm Q?
< 1697395212 837913 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Nope
< 1697395327 388652 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's an online Pokémon thingy.
< 1697395337 523999 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :( pokefarm.com )
< 1697395351 251557 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Does reading in the IRCs count as hearing?
< 1697395399 207169 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :depends on how literal you are
< 1697395414 363914 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I sometimes play Pokemon card, since I have some older cards
< 1697395439 720161 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Uh huh
< 1697395455 407743 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait, *another* parser generator?
< 1697395460 530400 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or just the same one
< 1697395480 488733 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: not ayacc
< 1697395511 969454 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ayacc was primarily intended as something that could be used to compile programs that depend on POSIX yacc
< 1697395555 651589 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :making more output templates for ayacc sounded plausible, eg. I might want a rust one, or a stackless C++ one
< 1697395584 562621 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :whereas with the new one, I'm trying to create something much better than yacc – able to handle more grammars, better at detecting mistakes in the grammar, and the resulting parsers run faster
< 1697395623 132411 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one principle I want is that the parser generator should be powerful enough to handle a combined parser/lexer that's produced simply by writing the lexer rules as parser rules
< 1697395623 789371 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, though ayacc is already better at detecting mistakes than yacc, and the resulting parsers likely run faster
< 1697395628 283386 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :current yacc completely fails at that
< 1697395647 152493 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and ayacc uses the same algorithm for compatibility, so it fails too
< 1697395658 309256 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the lexer rules as parser rules? I specifically don't want that, that would just make the grammar harder for humans to understand
< 1697395675 82827 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you want to make a separate lexer generator, that could make sense of course
< 1697395737 804179 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: say you don't have the same tokens in every place in your document
< 1697395750 861184 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also someone pointed out on this channel that the problem with having the parser grammar handle lexing is that it's harder to tell it to ignore whitespace and comments between almost any two tokens
< 1697395768 176317 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that is a problem I've been thinking a lot about
< 1697395808 347536 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, I want that for my python syntax extension, but if I have control over both the parser and the lexer than that's not a hard problem
< 1697395810 853771 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the correct solution to both of these problems is to have parser-ish rules and lexer-ish rules separate in the input format, but you're allowed to mix them in ways that a separate parser and lexer normally wouldn't be able to
< 1697395838 798442 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it's not a hard problem with respect to correctness, but it is a hard problem with respect to efficiency
< 1697395852 194240 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because if the parser is going to tell the lexer what sort of tokens to lex, that limits the evaluation order of the parser
< 1697395875 824782 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which invalidates a lot of possible optimisatiions
< 1697395893 944180 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, and it gets worse if you also want the execution stage to tell the parser or lexer what to accept
< 1697395930 725067 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :C-INTERCAL's parser currently does spark/ears matching in the lexer
< 1697395961 398050 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure whether it's possible to write it in pure yacc+lex
< 1697395974 200310 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but if it is it'd probably involve duplicating a lot of rules
< 1697396048 100854 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't like lex. I only used it like once, after a teacher teaching the course involving lex and yacc told me that he can't give me full marks for homework if my simple tokenizer does not actually use lex.
< 1697396076 462811 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm wondering how good yacc is at tokenising
< 1697396082 886684 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(apart from the output format, which is wrong)
< 1697396091 808763 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :just in terms of the algorithms
< 1697396111 911854 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's how geo ended up with a flex tokenizer
< 1697396118 448067 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no wait, it's not geo
< 1697396118 754405 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it is very difficult to specify things like "identifier that isn't a keyword" in yacc
< 1697396124 904297 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or is it?
< 1697396126 761688 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, it's geo
< 1697396146 470351 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and scan too. then I used lex twice.
< 1697396159 131406 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(not impossible but you have to basically write a trie of every prefix that no keyword starts with manually)
< 1697396232 593058 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the original use case of lex was to create a tokenizer that efficiently recognizes a dozen to a few hundred keywords, which look like identifiers until you learn the list
< 1697396247 209205 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :C-INTERCAL has a pre-lexer that expands ! to '. (and 🐰 to ".)
< 1697396274 937793 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's a pre-lexer, not a post-lexer?
< 1697396281 441715 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1697396295 28834 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it runs before the lexer, not sure though
< 1697396297 71166 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had mostly just wrote the parser and lexer in C, although having it separately might be useful sometimes too.
< 1697396334 871607 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it can be a pre-lexer, since intercal doesn't have string/format literals
< 1697396336 586815 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have handwritten a few parsers recently
< 1697396350 734589 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: if it did the expansion would have to be before the lexer
< 1697396362 646565 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the whole point is that a ! can match a later '
< 1697396437 460044 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I don't mean string literals delimited by apostrophes or rabbit ears, I mean string literals in which an exclamation mark has to be preserved as is without transforming to apostrophe and dot
< 1697396465 561380 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, you're saying that the lexer determines which apostrophe is opening or closing
< 1697396476 425615 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: right
< 1697396480 127844 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, then it makes sense to expand exclams after that
< 1697396491 719372 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :expand excalms *before* that
< 1697396506 104321 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, my point is that if INTERCAL did have '-delimeted string literals, an exclamation mark would ned the string
< 1697396517 658953 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* delimited
< 1697396531 528853 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Note that keywords need not look like identifiers if they are distinguished somehow (like they are in LLVM by adding sigils, for example; some of my own designs of programming languages do something similar, too).
< 1697396566 456755 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: in the specification for Algol, identifiers and keywords are written in different fonts, and are allowed to have the same spelling
< 1697396577 16316 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that created some interesting challenges for implementations
< 1697396612 907965 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the portable standard was to write a . before keywords so that they could be distinguished from identifiers formed from the same letters
< 1697396614 507894 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Quit: gone too far
< 1697396615 420873 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-21-195-194.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I avoid most "parser generators".  I either handcode the lexer and parser, or I want to use something more solidly theory-based than lex and yacc
< 1697396633 719813 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: what do you mean by "solidly theory-based"?
< 1697396636 725010 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they probably got that from the fortran .LE. operator then
< 1697396655 259864 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-21-195-194.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: like a parser combinator library, or an attribute-grammar-based formalism
< 1697396682 14251 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-21-195-194.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :lex and yacc be all like "let's intersperse some C code with some other junk in an expedient fashion"
< 1697396693 661219 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-21-195-194.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, no
< 1697396707 76395 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: I am hugely opposed to parser combinator libraries, for two reasons: a) they make it easy to write an ambiguous grammar without realising it, b) they make it easy to write a very slow parser without realising it
< 1697396733 359174 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :☺
< 1697396733 874945 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also disagree with many decisions lex/yacc have made, including that one
< 1697396751 599239 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :You could use a character set that uses different character codes for keywords vs identifiers, if such a thing is necessary
< 1697396756 77698 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…this is part of why I want to write my own parser generator
< 1697396758 308467 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :My Friend who studies Informatik at the Fernuni Hagen has to write Pascal-Code
< 1697396772 676710 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Very easy to make a Pascal Compiler
< 1697396777 308298 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Very ugly to program in it
< 1697396781 336102 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: a common nonportable approach at the time was to use uppercase vs. lowercase
< 1697396786 580902 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, in theory you could have a parser combinator library that doesn't have full backtracking alteration, but only alternation where you explicitly have to specify the lookahead and the lookahead condition is more limited than the rest of the grammar
< 1697396788 368726 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-21-195-194.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I don't really disagree, a lot of parser combinator libraries are annoying to use
< 1697396797 816011 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but in 1968 I'm not sure that all computers even supported two cases
< 1697396843 889814 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the thing I am most opposed to in yacc is the way it handles precedence
< 1697396848 827952 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wrote this file:  http://sprunge.us/y2f0gi  Could something like this be possible for parsing?
< 1697396860 606052 :Thelie!~Thelie@185.66.193.30 JOIN #esolangs * :Thelie
< 1697396867 599785 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :basically because it is very easy to handle precedence in a mathematically rigorous way, but yacc does something else
< 1697396875 232292 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I find yacc precedences confusing, but that might be only because I don't understand itsrules
< 1697396907 880845 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: most parser generators have input that looks something like that, but typically not with exactly that syntax
< 1697396913 12117 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think you explained to me at one point that they don't work anything like I thought they work
< 1697396929 296517 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: no, you're right to be confused, its rules are designed for implementation convenience rather than making any sense
< 1697396933 603425 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Although, this file I did does not have precedence since it is for a programming language that does not have precedence.)
< 1697396959 571793 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, if you get this new parser generator to work I'll be interestd
< 1697396992 217932 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: any grammar that can be expressed using precedence can be expressed without it, it just becomes bigger and harder to read
< 1697397018 752183 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :as such, my opinion about precedence is that parser generators should simply be written to do that transformation before generating the parser
< 1697397090 804227 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which would give the most intuitive possible behaviour – it would not be tied to the parser internals at all, and there would never be a case where the parser generator doesn't tell you about an ambiguity because it thought you had resolved it with precedence rules, when you were actually trying to resolve some other ambiguity
< 1697397229 439783 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: there's a great example in the paper about IELR where yacc (and Bison in LALR mode) can't parse some inputs because there is a lossy optimisation in LALR that is normally not a problem because it causes an ambiguity to be reported in cases where the optimisation is applied lossily, but that ambiguity ends up getting overridden by a precedence rule, with the consequence that some valid input just doesn't parse
< 1697397248 300210 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and this was actually discovered to affect at least one real-world program
< 1697397408 487663 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: is that in a situation when the token that is in the yacc precedence rule is used in more than one different way, and the precedence was supposed to have affected only one of them? because that's the obvious easy way to mess up yacc precedence, but I assume it's not the only way
< 1697397451 567648 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: probably; I can't remember the details, but that is a very common way to go wrong in yacc
< 1697397519 268437 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :What exactly differentiates Lexers from Parsers, apart from the Input-Chain-Length?
< 1697397623 364160 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :APic: the distinction is sort-of artificial; but normally lexer generators generate finite state machines and parser generators generate push-down automata, so lexers have to be finite state transducers to be generated with a typical lexer generator
< 1697397717 848431 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Thanks
< 1697397734 111476 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, nowadays languages often have fancy forms of string literal that can't be parsed finite-state, e.g. raw string literals which are surrounded by arbitrarily long sequences so you can pick one that doesn't appear in the string itself, or here-documents
< 1697397747 69057 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :ic
< 1697397752 596133 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it's unclear whether there's actually a mathematical distinction at this point or whether it's just a matter of tradition
< 1697397790 18160 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(that said, a push-down automaton can't do the raw string literals either, so some sort of generalisation is needed)
< 1697397818 732179 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1697397831 218679 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Just noticed „unclear“ has „nuclear“ as an Anagramm
< 1697397836 837983 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :s/mm/m/
< 1697398356 162192 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you make a parser generator that knows how to make a lexer too, that could be useful, because it could tell you if you want to introduce a new digraph symbol when that is ambiguous with the existing tokens in a way that can occur according to the parser, eg. it could tell you if : > could occur in C++ so you might not want to use :> as a digraph (it's way too late not to use :> as a digraph in C++ 
< 1697398362 154838 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :obviously)
< 1697398550 999456 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :funnily, push-down automatons are enough for lua's long delimited string literal, but not for C++'s long delimited string literals (unless you want to add like 2**128 states because the standard says that the extra delimiter is at most 16 characters long)
< 1697398597 683629 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then there's mime's delimited format, which uses even longer delimiters, so that you can just make the delimiter long and random and hope it doesn't occur in the data that you're delimiting
< 1697398714 623538 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-21-195-194.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: the ease with which you can accidentally make a backtracking parser with most parser combinator libraries reminds me that I thought about taking measures to avoid that in my AG formalism: a production has to be marked as "backtracking ok" otherwise it won't be allowed to.  (haven't worked out the details yet though.)
< 1697398716 472634 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I have actually been seriously considering the "add like 2**128 states" solution, and simply storing the parser table compressed in such a way that you can use the compressed format directly
< 1697398751 744710 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-21-195-194.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: is sprunge.us a good pastebin?
< 1697398756 981103 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: hmm, that's interesting
< 1697398778 947470 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sprunge is pretty good for short-term pastes, as long as you're OK with pasting from the command line rather than using a web interface
< 1697398787 535324 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the pastes seem not to last forever, though
< 1697398798 358631 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the problem about parser generators for me is that, if I invent a language then I'll make one for which I understand the grammar enough that I know how to handwrite a parser for it, so parser generators are mostly useful for the ugly cases when you want to parse some existing language with lots of silly historical cruft, like SQL
< 1697398800 137190 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which can be a problem in some cases
< 1697398829 473173 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: what about things like generating good error messages for every possible invalid input?
< 1697398843 850353 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I find that a pain to do when writing by hand, admittedly many parser generators aren't too good at it either
< 1697399104 355140 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-21-195-194.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good error messages contain line and column and source file name.  Those can be a chore to track, too.
< 1697399534 294409 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, to the extent that it makes sense to have a utility class/structure/library that does file reading and tracks the line/column as it goes (and source file if you have more than one of them)
< 1697399548 454678 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(but most of the time I need a parser, I only have one source file anyway)
< 1697399594 220801 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, perhaps a parser generator might help generate useful error messages, though I think only if the input for the parser generator has useful hints for that
< 1697399660 515802 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think a lot can be done without hints, but maybe not everything
< 1697399701 109907 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I usually add good error messages lazily, as in my program is full of cases where it just gives up, but until I actually encounter such a give up case or I expect to encounter it, the error message that it prints isn't informative
< 1697399752 220410 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if my program dies and I don't understand why, then I make it print useful info to that error message, and possibly print debug info earlier too 
< 1697399792 204927 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :of course this won't work well with programs that you can't rerun reproducibly, or with programs that other peoplee have to run without me being available
< 1697400151 977563 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-21-195-194.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :In the olden days, people wanted to see as many syntax errors as possible in an error message, so they could fix them all before trying to compile again.
< 1697400172 863867 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-21-195-194.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's also what the semicolons were for, to help "error recovery".
< 1697400197 282508 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: semicolons are still useful for that
< 1697400203 144723 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-21-195-194.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :So that was another thing a parser generator could take off your hands.
< 1697400220 366548 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, not specifically error recovery, but to get useful error messages if you forget a closing paren
< 1697400231 140199 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-21-195-194.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :But compiling is so much cheaper these days, these things matter so much less.
< 1697400279 833305 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah
< 1697400306 605981 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-21-195-194.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I still use parens in JS but I feel like I get nasty looks for doing so
< 1697400324 488753 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :parens for what?
< 1697400339 853138 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-21-195-194.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :doh I meant semicolons
< 1697400368 957292 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait, there are people who don't use semicolons in JS?
< 1697400385 901027 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is this some sort of micro-golf in order to save a few pennies on bandwidth?
< 1697400438 473928 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I expect there are people who don't use semicolons (most of the time) beacuse JS has some quite complicated grammar rules for when you can omit semicolons and they wouldn't have added those unless someone wanted to use them
< 1697400605 464174 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It looks more modern without semicolons.
< 1697400692 600377 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I don't think *using* them is uncommon either. The style guide at work mandates them, and MDN says it's "considered best practice, however, to always write a semicolon after a statement, even when it is not strictly needed."
< 1697400748 908397 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: do you have an interpreter or linter that can warn you when you miss a semicolon?
< 1697401343 602636 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:90a6:3649:bcf5:a397 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1697402546 533269 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523 yeah im not sure what the best way to connect with us would be.
> 1697402685 580262 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07QwertyScript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117929&oldid=105078 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+93) 10Categories
> 1697403482 643922 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Expressive14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117930&oldid=116118 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+24) 10Category
> 1697403835 293769 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Trampolines14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117931&oldid=117918 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+1943) 10a
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> 1697404643 141733 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Europe204814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117932&oldid=116933 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+97) 10/* Project Euler problem 10 implementation */
> 1697404677 544120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Europe204814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117933&oldid=117932 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+27) 10
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< 1697405227 85903 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: Sprunge seems good enough to me. (Although, in the past I think once I tried to send a file with a few non-ASCII characters and they were deleted, so that might be of a consideration)
< 1697405369 399359 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Also, both command-line and web interface work OK)
< 1697405567 629438 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I don't remember if I've actually tried writing JS at work, but I would imagine there is something. Other languages definitely do.
< 1697406118 875543 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Why does C have fmemopen and open_memstream but not a function to open a new in-memory file for reading and writing (without needing to specify a pointer to the buffer or a pointer to a variable to store the pointer to the buffer) which is automatically destroyed when the file is closed?
< 1697406137 227058 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that the automatic semicolon insertion is one of the bad ideas of JavaScript.
< 1697406229 833952 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The fmemopen function allows to open a fixed-size in-memory file similar than the above, but not dynamic sizing which is what open_memstream does, which requires specifying the pointers and is meant only for writing and not for reading)
< 1697409455 951479 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.213.254.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl QUIT :
> 1697409923 929860 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07F!--14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117934&oldid=117922 5* 03None1 5* (+59) 10/* Commands */  The output command in F!-- exists, but outputs an integer
> 1697410341 495081 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07F!--14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117935&oldid=117934 5* 03None1 5* (+111) 10Added an example (XKCD Random Number) to show that F!-- has integer output
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> 1697410622 320338 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07F!--14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117936&oldid=117935 5* 03None1 5* (+82) 10/* Interpreter */  The lisp interpreter is wrong, I changed it to a Python interpreter
< 1697411941 713290 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't use unnecessary semicolons in JS
> 1697411974 537076 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07--yay14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117937&oldid=82414 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+8) 10Link, categories
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< 1697413234 364386 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
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< 1697417779 524750 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
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< 1697430802 792898 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Can nonzero scalar multiplication with monads with category of matrices?
< 1697443362 233389 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1697443489 746370 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel that that question is missing a verb and perhaps a few other words.
< 1697443943 313980 :mcfrdy!~mcfrdy@user/mcfrdy QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
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< 1697445870 441273 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
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< 1697446945 282820 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
< 1697447007 614063 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-21-195-194.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
> 1697454634 36797 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117938&oldid=117904 5* 03None1 5* (+428) 10/* Commands */
> 1697454778 20016 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117939&oldid=117938 5* 03None1 5* (+176) 10
> 1697454960 656105 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117940&oldid=117939 5* 03None1 5* (+322) 10
> 1697455371 119488 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StringSafunge14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117941 5* 03None1 5* (+377) 10Created page with "StringSafunge id an esolang created by [[User:None1]], it is [[Befunge]]-93, but string-save in most languages. ==Commands== {| class="wikitable" |+ Commands that are different in StringSafunge and Befunge-93 |- ! In StringSafunge !! In Befunge-93 |- | a || \ |- | b 
> 1697455407 213557 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117942&oldid=117898 5* 03None1 5* (+55) 10/* My Esolangs */
> 1697455557 426662 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StringSafunge14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117943&oldid=117941 5* 03None1 5* (-7) 10
> 1697455574 415028 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StringSafunge14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117944&oldid=117943 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10
> 1697455903 398696 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hrdfsh14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117945&oldid=52974 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+24) 10Category
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> 1697460285 426851 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hardfish14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117946&oldid=108529 5* 03None1 5* (+34) 10/* Interpreter */
> 1697460294 276972 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hardfish14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117947&oldid=117946 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* Interpreter */
> 1697460322 611030 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hrdfsh14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117948&oldid=117945 5* 03None1 5* (+34) 10/* Computational class */
> 1697460543 607687 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117949&oldid=117940 5* 03None1 5* (+261) 10/* Commands */
> 1697460717 748780 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117950&oldid=117949 5* 03None1 5* (+203) 10
> 1697460732 404134 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117951&oldid=117950 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* Comments */
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> 1697460898 546698 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117952&oldid=117951 5* 03None1 5* (+109) 10
> 1697460919 842193 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117953&oldid=117952 5* 03None1 5* (+37) 10/* I/O */
> 1697460944 39933 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117954&oldid=117953 5* 03None1 5* (+6) 10/* Cat program */
> 1697461009 482804 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117955&oldid=117954 5* 03None1 5* (+69) 10/* Example programs */
> 1697461080 97736 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117956&oldid=117955 5* 03None1 5* (+49) 10/* Example programs */
> 1697463488 237296 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07B2C14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117957&oldid=117925 5* 03None1 5* (-74) 10/* Example Programs */  Now there is an interpreter to verify programs
> 1697463695 756879 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07B2C14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117958&oldid=117957 5* 03None1 5* (+411) 10
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> 1697464034 534880 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07B2C14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117959&oldid=117958 5* 03None1 5* (+35) 10/* External resources */
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> 1697475026 154248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078xn14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117960&oldid=116286 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+28) 10
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> 1697478113 528052 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=117962 5* 03Jaip 5* (+2492) 10Created Article
> 1697478284 385201 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Jaip14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117963&oldid=117130 5* 03Jaip 5* (+44) 10
> 1697478386 62103 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117964&oldid=117891 5* 03Jaip 5* (+24) 10/* Non-alphabetic */
> 1697478483 440505 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117965&oldid=117964 5* 03Jaip 5* (-16) 10/* Non-alphabetic */
> 1697478538 466796 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NONE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117966&oldid=117928 5* 03Jaip 5* (+5) 10
< 1697479807 649210 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie
> 1697482271 912096 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Marble Machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117967&oldid=105583 5* 03Masalt 5* (+108) 10
> 1697482317 690931 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Masalt14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117968&oldid=105616 5* 03Masalt 5* (+14) 10
< 1697482591 846346 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1697482649 459949 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1697483152 352014 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`w
< 1697483154 549300 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​nostril//Nostril is a common Québécois greeting.
> 1697483828 794488 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Woodchuck/Implementation14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117969&oldid=93045 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+3) 10Back, category
< 1697484179 549589 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a QUIT :Quit: Leaving.
< 1697484434 671153 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Quit: gone too far
< 1697484470 770420 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(As far as I can tell, they will be made by an identity matrix multiplied by a scalar number and by an identity matrix divided by the same scalar number (therefore, it cannot be zero), that it is a "scalar monad", and that there is a comonad just as good as the monad, and the Kleisli category just as good as the original category, and that identity monads are also scalar monads (regardless of the category).)
< 1697484527 585721 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Do you know what I meant, now?
< 1697484658 630396 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-148-105.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1697488134 613739 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] FortyTwoBB
< 1697488168 379981 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This still seems a bit like black magic to me, but you seem to be right.
< 1697488168 841634 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :@ais523, can you confirm the final state of a FWC running the last example program in the interactive waterfall tutorial when it halts?
< 1697488168 909156 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :Unknown command, try @list
< 1697488169 341227 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I used your converter but my own (inefficient) implementation of FWCs
< 1697488263 917255 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :My simulation has it stopping after 3989 floods with the first 23 clocks having the following values:
< 1697488264 423870 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :2896, 2896, 2897, 2896, 2896, 2896, 2895, 2896,
< 1697488264 924054 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :1, 1, 1, 19, 27, 3, 1, 0, 1, 1, 0, 19, 27, 3
< 1697488265 423232 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Clocks 23, 34, and 40 holding nearly identical gigantic 770 digit numbers starting with 91521821... clock 23 being 2 less than the other two.
< 1697488265 917499 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Every other clock at zero.
< 1697488296 892655 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :does this match what you get with yours?
< 1697488297 392165 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If so I think I'm convinced, even with not fully understanding the proof.
< 1697488340 134710 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I'll check the logs later for a reply, though we really should work out a better system lol)
< 1697488579 849476 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the example waterclock program for reference:
< 1697488580 342069 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :[[12,6,6,6,6,6,6],
< 1697488580 840165 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs : [ 2,2,2,2,0,4,4],
< 1697488581 346416 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs : [ 3,2,2,2,4,2,0],
< 1697488581 840194 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs : [ 3,0,0,0,0,0,0],
< 1697488582 340015 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs : [11,3,1,2,4,0,0],
< 1697488582 841576 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs : [ 7,1,1,1,1,3,1],
< 1697488583 350005 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs : [ 3,2,3,1,0,2,4]]
< 1697489588 613691 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1697489631 514399 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyone online?
< 1697489810 2184 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, and also the issue with massacre girl in your ruby storm construction is with halting, however I think a special 'unwinding' clock can be used to absorb all of the death triggers and keep the other clocks alive so that you can actually move to combat, by doubling itself and adding triple its value to the other clocks it will always be the
< 1697489810 498697 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :smallest and it will eventually be able to live all of the -1/-1 triggers.
< 1697490852 887351 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-148-105.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1697490915 33130 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Campbell14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117970&oldid=92338 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+89) 10Stub, categories
< 1697491203 272969 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1697491716 645642 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: no, you'll have to start over because I still can't parse what you're trying to say
< 1697491719 755016 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1697492557 381041 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I meant by category of matrices, if a monad can be a identity matrix multiplied by a nonzero scalar to multiply the matrix by a scalar (so, it is commutative), and the Kleisli category just as good as the original category. (It cannot be zero because it has to be canceled out, by dividing by a scalar, and if it is zero then you would have to divide by zero, which is not allowed, of course.)
< 1697492662 761165 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Although, multiplication by zero would correspond with the zero-morphisms, which, since 0 (number of rows or columns) is zero-object that the Initialize comonad and Finalize monad are effectively zero.)
< 1697492697 420958 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although Initialize and Finalize are not scalar monads, so it is difference than the above)
< 1697495282 773540 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1697496124 636850 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1697496355 664766 :craigo_!~craigo@180-150-36-21.b49624.bne.nbn.aussiebb.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1697496388 145032 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1697496542 241086 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Campbell14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117971&oldid=117970 5* 03None1 5* (+29) 10/* Discussion */
< 1697499436 144759 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1697501083 567446 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, is there a name for a category of the walks of a undirected graph such that if you walk backward along the same path that you had just done then it cancels it out? (For example, if you have a graph which is a triangle with notes A B C then A-B-C-A-B-A has the final A-B and B-A canceling each other out being considered equal to A-B-C-A.)
< 1697504159 502739 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1697504199 509228 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1697506200 930617 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfish14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117972&oldid=117612 5* 03Dnm 5* (+472) 10/* Umka, now for Umka 1.2 */
< 1697507366 271932 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-232.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
> 1697507514 259306 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Counting14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117973&oldid=117585 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+0) 10Amended an instance of cacography.
< 1697508131 271189 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-002-200-068-007.002.200.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN #esolangs Melvar :melvar
> 1697513413 515216 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PixelatedStarfish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117974&oldid=117175 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+31) 10/* Logo suggestions */
> 1697513579 483527 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:DeadFishPlusPlus.png10]]": logo!
> 1697513701 269194 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PixelatedStarfish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117976&oldid=117974 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+25) 10/* Logo suggestions */
> 1697513726 146252 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PixelatedStarfish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117977&oldid=117976 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (-56) 10/* Logo suggestions */
> 1697513753 67172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Deadfish++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117978&oldid=117260 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+68) 10
> 1697513786 964039 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Deadfish++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117979&oldid=117978 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (-68) 10/* Logo */
> 1697513809 425159 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Europe204814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117980&oldid=117933 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+61) 10
> 1697515102 893705 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117981&oldid=117962 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+49) 10Categories
> 1697515169 800271 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117982&oldid=117981 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+19) 10Category
> 1697518745 839890 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainbits14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117983&oldid=117598 5* 03Yb1 5* (-15) 10thanks None1
< 1697523551 164998 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1697531829 566775 :Koen!~Koen@dvx62-h01-176-145-78-176.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
< 1697534728 907964 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1697535871 461297 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
> 1697537952 567073 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Snowflake14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117984&oldid=107486 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+405) 10/* Segmented transposition */ new section
> 1697539348 427501 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfish++14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117985&oldid=117494 5* 03None1 5* (+41) 10
< 1697539636 875286 :craigo__!~craigo@2403:5815:da48:0:a1aa:83b:a8a5:bab4 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1697539811 696141 :craigo_!~craigo@180-150-36-21.b49624.bne.nbn.aussiebb.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1697540193 801395 :craigo__!~craigo@2403:5815:da48:0:a1aa:83b:a8a5:bab4 QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1697542276 121374 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie
> 1697543201 749670 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hsamsniarb14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117986&oldid=116387 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+1) 10Rectified an orthographic mistake.
> 1697543251 226583 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hsamsniarb14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117987&oldid=117986 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+1) 10Rectified an orthographic mistake.
> 1697543334 802578 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Imput14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117988&oldid=115793 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+1) 10Rectified an orthographic mistake.
> 1697543473 217383 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07...14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117989&oldid=114873 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (-3) 10Amended an erroneous statement in the Common Lisp implementation's documentation concerning the memory's componency.
> 1697543713 731522 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Skim machine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117990&oldid=105910 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (-1) 10Rectified an orthographic mistake.
> 1697543795 135663 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07O o14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117991&oldid=106020 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+0) 10Rectified an orthographic mistake.
> 1697544220 779062 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainbits14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117992&oldid=117983 5* 03None1 5* (+10) 10Fixed truth machine
> 1697544402 192196 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainbits14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117993&oldid=117992 5* 03None1 5* (+137) 10/* Examples */
> 1697544755 597624 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117994&oldid=117927 5* 03None1 5* (+145) 10/* Related languages */
> 1697545201 801887 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117995&oldid=117956 5* 03None1 5* (+288) 10/* Commands */
> 1697545252 283411 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117996&oldid=117995 5* 03None1 5* (+3) 10/* Errors */
> 1697545267 95167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117997&oldid=117996 5* 03None1 5* (+4) 10/* Example programs */
> 1697545729 733001 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117998&oldid=117997 5* 03None1 5* (+107) 10
> 1697545823 132806 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Programming abillities of different esolangs14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=117999&oldid=117572 5* 03None1 5* (+304) 10/* B */
< 1697546266 526017 :Koen!~Koen@dvx62-h01-176-145-78-176.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr PRIVMSG #esolangs :!msg cpressey I've read the first half of the first half of "counterexamples in topology". it's fun. but "Don't worry if you don't know topology -- it's not the topology that makes this a worthwhile read" seriously? this can be read by someone who hasn't studied topology? there are so much formal symbols everywhere and so many abstract words describing different kinds of abstract topologies!!
< 1697546297 571522 :Koen!~Koen@dvx62-h01-176-145-78-176.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr PRIVMSG #esolangs :!send cpressey I've read the first half of the first half of "counterexamples in topology". it's fun. but "Don't worry if you don't know topology -- it's not the topology that makes this a worthwhile read" seriously? this can be read by someone who hasn't studied topology? there are so much formal symbols everywhere and so many abstract words describing different kinds of abstract topologies!!
< 1697547500 417496 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a QUIT :Quit: Leaving.
> 1697547642 314234 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118000&oldid=117998 5* 03None1 5* (+115) 10
> 1697547670 375403 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118001&oldid=118000 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* Reverse Cat program */
> 1697547711 108668 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118002&oldid=118001 5* 03None1 5* (+13) 10/* Jump */
> 1697547891 642221 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118003&oldid=118002 5* 03None1 5* (+130) 10/* Example programs */
> 1697547939 164377 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118004&oldid=118003 5* 03None1 5* (-3478) 10
> 1697548328 319394 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stack-based14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118005 5* 03None1 5* (+3718) 10Created page with " Stack-based is a stack-based esolang invented by [[User:None1]]. ==Commands== They are case-insensitive.  Legend: ''x'', ''y'' and ''z'' are variables, ''integer'' is an integer literal, ''string'' is a string literal without quotes. ===Declaration===  VAR ''x'' Decl
> 1697548588 726736 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118006&oldid=117965 5* 03None1 5* (+13) 10/* B */
> 1697548676 414215 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118007&oldid=118006 5* 03None1 5* (+18) 10/* S */
> 1697548707 920197 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118008&oldid=117942 5* 03None1 5* (+44) 10/* My Esolangs */
> 1697548757 538914 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stack-based14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118009&oldid=118005 5* 03None1 5* (+80) 10/* Errors */
> 1697548814 330782 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-Z)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118010&oldid=117773 5* 03None1 5* (+38) 10/* Spoon */
> 1697548856 554415 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nope.14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118011&oldid=115845 5* 03None1 5* (+35) 10/* Setlang */
> 1697548910 547466 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118012&oldid=117599 5* 03None1 5* (+56) 10/* Squishy2K */
< 1697548937 385520 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.149.238.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
> 1697548969 528421 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07A+B Problem14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118013&oldid=117606 5* 03None1 5* (+74) 10/* Sokolang */
> 1697549002 993195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Looping counter14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118014&oldid=113543 5* 03None1 5* (+123) 10/* Examples */
> 1697549027 915698 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Looping counter14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118015&oldid=118014 5* 03None1 5* (+2) 10
< 1697549034 316630 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie
> 1697549043 103903 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Looping counter14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118016&oldid=118015 5* 03None1 5* (-1) 10
< 1697549132 893432 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
> 1697549141 455580 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Looping counter14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118017&oldid=118016 5* 03None1 5* (+1) 10
< 1697549635 477267 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :"BB(745) requires proving the consistency of ZFC"
< 1697549637 915650 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't understand this
< 1697549650 532268 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :can't you just calculate BB(n)?
< 1697549676 683699 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :i guess not because some turing machines may not terminate, but it wont be obvious
< 1697549682 111645 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.sligocki.com/2023/10/16/bb-3-3-is-hard.html
< 1697549712 875759 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :so BB(n) isnt just something you can calculate, you actually have to prove termination for every turing machine of a certain length
> 1697550389 300916 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainbits14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118018&oldid=117993 5* 03None1 5* (+1) 10/* Truth Machine */
> 1697550408 876169 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainbits14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118019&oldid=118018 5* 03None1 5* (-1) 10/* Cat program */
> 1697550932 232663 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainbits14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118020&oldid=118019 5* 03None1 5* (+615) 10/* Examples */
> 1697550975 715284 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainbits14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118021&oldid=118020 5* 03None1 5* (+77) 10No longer unimplemented!
> 1697551001 222252 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118022&oldid=118008 5* 03None1 5* (+22) 10/* My Implementations */
> 1697551075 480843 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainbits14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118023&oldid=118021 5* 03None1 5* (+4) 10/* Hello World! */
> 1697551100 246985 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118024&oldid=117823 5* 03None1 5* (+534) 10/* BoolX */
> 1697551339 297813 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainbits14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118025&oldid=118023 5* 03None1 5* (-29) 10/* Interpreter */  It's not TC
< 1697555962 165369 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1697556069 113018 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`dontaskdonttelllist
< 1697556070 497878 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :dontaskdonttelllist: q​u​i​n​t​o​p​i​a​ m​y​n​a​m​e​ i​n​t​-​e​
< 1697556084 479336 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Koen: try @tell
< 1697556098 494248 :Koen!~Koen@dvx62-h01-176-145-78-176.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks
< 1697556107 232514 :Koen!~Koen@dvx62-h01-176-145-78-176.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr PRIVMSG #esolangs :@tell cpressey I've read the first half of the first half of "counterexamples in topology". it's fun. but "Don't worry if you don't know topology -- it's not the topology that makes this a worthwhile read" seriously? this can be read by someone who hasn't studied topology? there are so much formal symbols everywhere and so many abstract words describing different kinds of abstract topologies!!
< 1697556107 275840 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :Consider it noted.
< 1697556107 929776 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :river: proving termination is the easier hard part, the hard (or impossible for larger n) part is proving non-termination
> 1697556131 258453 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Codeguy9 5*  10New user account
< 1697556240 126514 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, so the C++ function std::regex_search and the python function re.search tries to find how a regex matches any infix of a string; the python function re.match tries to find how a regex matches any prefix of a string; the C++ function std::regex_match and the python function re.fullmatch tries to find how a regex matches a whole string. that's
< 1697556240 605227 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :another annoying naming conflict.
> 1697556933 622113 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118026&oldid=117790 5* 03Codeguy9 5* (+177) 10/* Introductions */
> 1697556987 408406 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Codeguy914]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118027 5* 03Codeguy9 5* (+98) 10Created page with "I make programming languages for fun and then post them as open source projects on my Google Drive"
< 1697557659 466630 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1697557674 287961 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Codeguy914]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118028 5* 03Codeguy9 5* (+12) 10Created page with ""
> 1697560990 244948 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078-Bit14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118029 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+911) 10Created page with "'''8-Bit''' is an esolang created by [[User:Infinitehexagon]] in hopes of making his first Turing tarpit using Binary numbers, but it is unknown whether this is Turing-complete due to the fact that the cells are NOT unbounded and are limited to 8 cells. This langua
> 1697561040 209069 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078-Bit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118030&oldid=118029 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+204) 10
> 1697561061 629997 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078-Bit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118031&oldid=118030 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+1) 10
> 1697561078 678061 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078-Bit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118032&oldid=118031 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+0) 10/* Hello World */
> 1697561172 898823 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078-Bit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118033&oldid=118032 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+212) 10
> 1697561225 79810 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078-Bit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118034&oldid=118033 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (-12) 10
> 1697561402 778488 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078-Bit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118035&oldid=118034 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+131) 10
> 1697561552 995389 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078-Bit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118036&oldid=118035 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+53) 10
> 1697561754 492471 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078-Bit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118037&oldid=118036 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+159) 10
> 1697561850 726888 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078-Bit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118038&oldid=118037 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+46) 10
> 1697562055 927592 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078-Bit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118039&oldid=118038 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+24) 10
> 1697562088 28095 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Infinitehexagon14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118040&oldid=117722 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+2) 10/* Things I might do */
> 1697562127 551248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Infinitehexagon14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118041&oldid=118040 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+14) 10/* My Esolangs (chronological order) */
> 1697562338 90221 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078-Bit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118042&oldid=118039 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+75) 10
> 1697562361 63713 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078-Bit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118043&oldid=118042 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+6) 10
< 1697562485 499626 :Koen!~Koen@dvx62-h01-176-145-78-176.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr QUIT :Quit: Leaving...
< 1697566873 504830 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.149.238.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Quit: gone too far
< 1697567814 782094 :Wryl-o-the-wisp!sid553797@user/wryl QUIT :
< 1697568404 121709 :Wryl-o-the-wisp!sid553797@user/wryl JOIN #esolangs Wryl :Wryl
< 1697568681 612914 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
> 1697569799 211645 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfish++14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118044&oldid=117985 5* 03Europe2048 5* (+20) 10Changed syntax: /x\  mx
< 1697570447 725994 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Write error: Connection reset by peer
< 1697571448 434734 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de JOIN #esolangs * :rodgort
< 1697572043 865119 :sprout_!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-f008-d723-753e-6614.fixed6.kpn.net JOIN #esolangs * :sprout
< 1697572239 120270 :sprout!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-fc0c-d252-d543-cf0d.fixed6.kpn.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1697572573 529028 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)
< 1697573247 83048 :sprout_!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-f008-d723-753e-6614.fixed6.kpn.net NICK :sprout
< 1697574490 615298 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1697574623 912680 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net QUIT :Client Quit
< 1697574655 381804 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1697575140 622364 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
> 1697575493 680608 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Blackberry14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118045&oldid=46427 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+32) 10Stub, category
< 1697575751 552368 :sprout_!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-a518-4d18-54ef-95d2.fixed6.kpn.net JOIN #esolangs * :sprout
< 1697575956 768365 :sprout!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-f008-d723-753e-6614.fixed6.kpn.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1697576719 852236 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1697576962 411154 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :<b_jonas> ah yes, that's a good way to get an esoteric language. plan a domain-specific language that you want to use for some particular purpose, then find that you don't want to use it after all, ends up unused and esoteric  <-- Yes, this is a good design metholodology for esolangs.
< 1697577076 840911 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :My compiler's not a write-off but was driven off the road by the fact that Scheme is a bad fit for what I need.  I'll probably change the source language someday, try to salvage something from it.
< 1697577428 930252 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :@tell Koen There are lots of nice pictures in it you can look at if you don't like puzzling over math symbols.
< 1697577428 978813 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :Consider it noted.
< 1697577526 500768 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have invented some domain-specific language and had some intention of others that I had not yet designed (I have a few ideas but not enough). I could also consider that too, though
< 1697577992 466203 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Specifically, I had made up one for puzzle games (like Sokoban, Hero Hearts, etc); and I thought to also make one for specifying rules of variants of mahjong.)
< 1697578056 334793 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(And, PostScript is both general-purpose and domain-specific programming language, as well as both text and binary, and I seem to remember also reading somewhere that it is also both esoteric programming and not esoteric programming at the same time, too.)
< 1697578408 687870 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I owned this book on PostScript, once, a long time ago: https://archive.org/details/postscriptlangua00adobrich
< 1697578409 203239 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think I would call PostScript truly esoteric, but it definitely has its moments.
< 1697578520 777222 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think you are probably correct
< 1697578638 332068 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :PostScript is one of the programming languages that I use, although I think some improvements could be made, such as adding a /Environment resource, non-buffered pipes, alpha transparency, setting the encoding separately from the font, auto-allocation for some operators, string concatenation, and some others
< 1697578788 640519 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey, zzo38: re unused domain-specific language, https://esolangs.org/wiki/Legasm is the main example that I was thinking of
< 1697579571 414275 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1697580386 304515 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :My opinion is that, nevertheless, PostScript is much better designed than many newer programming languages. One advantage of PostScript is that it does not use Unicode strings.
< 1697580665 322783 :sprout_!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-a518-4d18-54ef-95d2.fixed6.kpn.net NICK :sprout
< 1697580699 564273 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :And, the PostScript binary object sequence format is good but is not very good if you want 64-bit values.
< 1697581049 587992 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Other than that, it has the advantage of not needing parsing the entire structure to find one part
< 1697581256 390838 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1697581288 119757 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1697581461 900622 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for the logs (for if FortyTwoBB reads them, or someone can otherwise link this portion of the logs if they show up):
< 1697581479 747523 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my Flooding Waterfall Model compile+simulation on the same program gives:
< 1697581481 199506 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Waterclock values: 11×260+36 11×260+36 11×260+37 11×260+36 11×260+36 11×260+36 11×260+35 11×260+36 1 1 1 19 27 3 1 0 1 1 0 19 27 3 260^318-11 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 260^318-13 0 0 0 0 0 260^318-13 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
< 1697581586 825051 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :260^318-11 is a 768-digit number starting with 9152182143
< 1697581598 97589 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I suspect we have the same result and you just miscounted the digits
< 1697581632 664395 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, I realised I was slightly wrong when saying a constant toughness boost wouldn't affect the Flooding Waterfall Model compiler output
< 1697581651 202067 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it actually does affect one part of it: the halt counter, which won't work correctly if you add a constant toughness boost and the program is otherwise unmodified
< 1697581672 771334 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this isn't a major issue, it is possible to change the baseline a little to compensate for the constant toughness boost
< 1697581774 242914 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also I get 3989 floods, just like you do
< 1697581890 295826 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :as for the Massacre Girl construction, when using Bishop of Wings it can be halted very simply by using the Bishops (whose creature types are unique) as the halt counter (the halt counter is formed of the Bishops + lots of tokens), when the program halts all the Bishops die so there are no token-creation triggers left
< 1697581934 773405 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :however, I prefer your approach, because it makes it possible to use Xathrid Necromancer instead, meaning that we don't have to give the opponent life (making it possible to have a lethal Grapeshot on the stack immediately below the damage source, also a Grapeshot, that starts off the combo)
< 1697581990 696356 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :on another side note, Spiral Rise can interpret n-tag directly, you don't have to go via 2-tag
< 1697582313 325687 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(sorry for not being online yesterday – I am often busy on Mondays)
> 1697582857 915754 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:8-Bit14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118046 5* 03None1 5* (+144) 10Created page with "If the data in a language is bounded, then its definitely not TC. --~~~~"
> 1697583054 554021 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Springboard14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118047&oldid=94912 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+74) 10Categories
< 1697583301 614795 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] FortyTwoBB
< 1697583319 979820 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :just read the logs Thanks @ais523
< 1697583337 751852 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I did miscount, there was a comma and a space at the end i counted
> 1697583420 699652 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pity14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118048&oldid=12157 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+84) 10Stub, WIP, categories
> 1697583431 493719 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainbits14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118049&oldid=118025 5* 03None1 5* (+2) 10/* Interpreter */
< 1697583497 788478 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the problem with using the bishops as the halt counter is that killing all of the halting type makes a ton of massacre girl triggers that will wipe out any output from the computation.
< 1697583586 382071 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So you need to keep at least some token makers alive to absorb those triggers.
< 1697583635 408638 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though if you don't care about output beyond "does it halt?" then your method is fine
< 1697583878 500511 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm still a bit mystified by the FWC proof but can't deny that it works.
< 1697584995 330643 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if it was easier to understand, it probably wouldn't have taken three years to come up with it :-)
< 1697585003 809674 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although I wasn't working on it continuously all that time, of course)
< 1697585044 346320 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Turing-completeness doesn't actually require output, although of course a Busy Beaver construction does, and having output is always nice
< 1697585164 157769 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think there's some sort of intermediate language which compiles into FWM, which would make the proof easier to understand
< 1697585181 26478 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that would be nice
< 1697585234 618198 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you have two basic operations on positions (= damage marked): "a = min(b, c, d, …) + constant", and "if e<b, then don't include b in any minimums this cycle"
< 1697585307 7625 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for the former, you get b's, c's, d's, … flood triggers to create some amount of a, the exact amount doesn't matter, and then use the baseline to get the constant and to get the values correct
< 1697585327 197440 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for the latter, you get e's flood trigger to boost b within the same cluster (rather than cross-cluster like things normally work)
< 1697585377 688157 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the baseline is conceptually simple, just a bit fiddly because you have to work out all the non-baseline changes that are happening in the program and compensate for them
< 1697585381 885203 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah you have a lot more control over the valuse than I had been able to get
< 1697585399 699578 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the trick is to never lose control over velocities / token counts ever
< 1697585440 695122 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, that was easier said than done
< 1697585458 877409 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but this is easier than it sounds, because if 1 X token creates a Y tokens, and 1 Y token creates b Z tokens, then one X token always creates ab Z tokens, the flood sequence doesn't matter at all
< 1697585494 207615 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this is also the reason it's probably impossible to use the token quantities to do meaningful computation, and I had to use the damage marked instead)
< 1697585542 410889 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the damage marked will be the same as the quantity when it floods
< 1697585559 640311 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, but it controls the timing of the flood
< 1697585600 491607 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is one counter, that I called "zero", which everything is measured relative to – data is stored in the timing of the floods of that relative to the floods of other things
< 1697585624 858844 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah im wrapping my head around it, its a different way than I had been thinking of them
< 1697585661 769492 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I find that programming in this sort of language is all about finding the right way to think about the problem – what can we control, and is the language still TC if we control it
< 1697585689 224685 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Three Star Programmer was mystifying to me and everyone else when I created it, but if looked at from the right perspective it's almost trivially easy
< 1697585699 695140 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(https://esolangs.org/wiki/Three_Star_Programmer if you're interested)
< 1697585772 32115 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah three star programmer is a cool 1-operation language
> 1697586186 370131 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Three Star Programmer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118050&oldid=117917 5* 03Ais523 5* (+960) 10/* Computational class */ explain the right way to think about this language
< 1697586297 779807 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for what it's worth, my breakthrough in solving FWM Turing-completeness was to observe that the values are hard to control, then "so if we can't control the values we have to control the velocities", then "we can't control the velocity separately from the value if we're ensuring the counters are always nonzero, like in The Waterfall Model, so we have to leave them zero for a while – changing how long they're zero would change things in a possibly 
< 1697586299 176922 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :controllable way"
< 1697586333 867341 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the simplest construction I could think of where things spend a lot of time at zero was to split into two groups and have each group be zero around half the time
< 1697586357 708213 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah I knew zero-ed counters were useful but I couldn't figure it out.
< 1697586389 77956 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you wrote in the original article that counters were permitted to remain at zero, rather than being undefined behaviour – that may well have been a useful clue
< 1697586446 667757 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah I wanted to be clear how it worked in the MTG implementation so that it was transferrable
< 1697586503 699789 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I find it fascinating how even closely related languages can have different restrictions and permissions based on what "naturally works" for the language
< 1697586530 104159 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The Waterfall Model hates zeroed counters because they would be supposed to trigger continuously, but in Flooding Waterfall Model the trigger is multiplied by 0 so it's fine
< 1697586578 770533 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah lol
< 1697586632 746572 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :something similar happened with Spiral Rise, the "add the remainder to the modulus" thing helped solve two problems (TCness and implementation difficulty), and then later I implemented Spiral Rise in a tag system and that *also* wanted to naturally add the remainder to the modulus
< 1697586664 278723 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I realised that this actually makes a lot of sense with how division works in the real world, divisions don't actually round down, if you have a remainder you have a remainder
< 1697586669 116745 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and when the remainders add up they carry
< 1697586703 302506 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah TCness can come from unexpected places and its kind of serendipitous sometimes
< 1697586736 692334 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was interested in this back when I was very young, before I realised that esolangs existed or what TCness was
< 1697586755 382529 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :trying (and mostly failing) to implement algorithms in things not meant to be programmed
< 1697586837 158234 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been more interested in the mathematics behind the structure
< 1697586864 908962 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I find that the underlying mathematics is often really neat, once you pare away enough unnecessary features
< 1697586903 422874 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :back when Turing machines were first discovered, mathematicians were interested in what the very simplest universal machines would be, hoping it would teach them something interesting
< 1697586916 144369 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then they changed their mind, deciding that it probably wouldn't reveal anything interesting after all
< 1697586945 874423 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I think that, if you go far enough down that path, it does produce some pretty interesting mathematical constructs and some neat insights into the nature of computation
< 1697586961 958346 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well the smallest is arguably wofram's (2,3)
< 1697586979 734262 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though that is very weakly universal
< 1697586980 686939 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in case you didn't realise, I'm the person who proved that weakly TC
< 1697586989 46701 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1697587038 327639 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it lead to a lot of controversy because nobody was quite sure what the correct definition of TCness was, and I still am not sure
< 1697587066 105272 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well congrats, I spent a week reading the FOM archives a few months ago.
< 1697587096 225582 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's made me more interested in the strong TCness constructions (i.e. blank initial state and explicit halting) because a) at least those are usually uncontroversial and b) there's more room for optimisation
< 1697587146 454607 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I came up with a strongly universal (2,14) pretty recently: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/111278/turing-complete-language-interpreter/265539#265539
< 1697587230 574468 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah universaility is very odd and tricky to pin down
< 1697587244 818988 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a good definition for without splitting into strong and weak
< 1697587371 127861 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :interestingly, experiments with proving things Turing-complete have me convinced that the simplest models are all variants of either counter machines or queue automata, and neither of those allow infinite inputs in the first place
< 1697587383 650052 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though it's probably not hard to add output to the M:tG Flooding Waterfall construction, something like you add two special counters and the output is the quotient of their value at termination 
< 1697587415 678216 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: the construction that FortyTwoBB et al are working on does require output, although they're doing busy beaver so they just need the output as large as possible
< 1697587443 7052 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw the "natural" definition of output in Flooding seems to be "distance in time between two counters zeroing"
< 1697587459 166450 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, though I was thinking yours, with the tournament viable deck, since in that case just rerunning the machine multiple times in parallel to get bits of the output isn't viable
< 1697587470 28087 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah we just have a counter that tracks how many iterations its been
< 1697587487 957946 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, that's the output then
< 1697587510 676789 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :with FortyTwoBB's idea for halting the program via stopping the death triggers via stopping the deaths rather than stopping the sources of the triggered abilities
< 1697587541 254846 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you could easily have multiple output states by varying which trigger is used to do the stopping, and thus what the creature type that floods the board at the end would be
< 1697587568 412690 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we also want the output to be in a nice stairstep pattern so we can easily convert the output to input.
< 1697587622 145729 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure what you mean by a stairstep pattern
< 1697587629 601027 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :of the n creatures we have each of {1...n} remaining toughness
< 1697587631 885848 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :large number as output is slightly weaker than arbitrary output from the program, so you probably use whatever large number is convenient for the M:tG construction, and don't care if you can make the program output a result of its calculation there
< 1697587639 928197 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, I see
< 1697587670 441614 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: right, one of the properties of busy beavers is that if you can produce a number X as output, there is no need to be able to produce any number < X
< 1697587728 858194 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :then to make input of i<n we can make the i+1st output creature a different type and exactly the first i outputs become inputs with an i->o necromancer
< 1697587765 693041 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err O->I necromancer
< 1697587842 920070 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is the current construction able to cast Artificial Evolution infinitely? or does it consume a limited resource?
< 1697587854 300183 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it consumes a limited resource
< 1697587868 121638 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we are unable to do anything infinitely
< 1697587889 249729 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I kind-of assumed there would be some things that would be infinite, but not convertible into damage
< 1697587910 816895 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there have been versions with infinite colorless mana and similar
< 1697587965 183075 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but free AEs would give us infinite TYS storm which we can convert into say infinite lingering souls tokens
< 1697587982 971992 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah right, you have something that cares about something storm-count-ish
< 1697588054 590389 :JAA!~JAA@user/jaa PRIVMSG #esolangs :7105
< 1697588057 169605 :JAA!~JAA@user/jaa PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oops
< 1697588060 705295 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so an AE costs a TYS copy from a TYS trigger from ... from a spellweaver volute trigger from casting lingering souls for 2 life.
< 1697588078 856181 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :JAA: that's a surprisingly large number to typo into IRC
< 1697588094 436693 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :normally when people do that it's something like a tab number, and is often in the hundreds, but I don't think I've seen thousands
< 1697588102 151427 :JAA!~JAA@user/jaa PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: / = shift + 7 on my keyboard layout, 105 is the window number.
< 1697588110 766914 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah right
< 1697588133 759384 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess that people who have hundreds of tabs are more likely to typo tab numbers, because they switch more oftne
< 1697588155 796343 :JAA!~JAA@user/jaa PRIVMSG #esolangs :It happens so regularly that I should look into writing a script that stops me from sending such messages...
< 1697588159 715017 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so an AE costs a small sliver of a life
< 1697588204 40031 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :bbiab driving
< 1697588207 513563 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.7 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1697588321 969146 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :do you need to spend an Artificial Evolution cast on each copy of the Xantrid Necromancer, or do you clone the evolved version and spend a more abundant resource on cloning?
< 1697588359 158448 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Xathrid Necromancer
< 1697588537 384595 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it'd be nice to have a list of level/stage resources, in order, to make this sort of question easier to answer – I lost track of it ages ago
< 1697590559 549808 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1697590605 508706 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1697590725 41089 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1697591251 613340 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] FortyTwoBB
< 1697591429 273247 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :welcome back
< 1697591615 680084 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :currently, roughly the resources are: colorless mana < creature tokens (can animate artifacts and enchantments) < resolute watchdog tokens < instants < computation happens here < life=black mana < red mana = sorceries < blue mana < green mana < white mana < card draw < poison counters
< 1697591662 341198 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name Resolute Watchdog
< 1697591664 382405 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :No output.
< 1697591688 362538 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Defender \ {1}, Sacrifice Resolute Watchdog: Target creature you control gains indestructible until end of turn."
< 1697591718 937822 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :its really any card that costs colorless to sacrifice itself and target a creature
< 1697591744 761212 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name Martyr of Spores
< 1697591746 199902 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Martyr of Spores \ G \ Creature -- Human Shaman \ 1/1 \ {1}, Reveal X green cards from your hand, Sacrifice Martyr of Spores: Target creature gets +X/+X until end of turn. \ CSP-C
< 1697591757 706694 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :is the other good option for that slot
< 1697591772 620740 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :presumably this is imprinted on Soul Foundry?
< 1697591776 490998 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yup
< 1697591827 781088 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :from hand we can either imprint it on soul foundry to get psychic battle ->cowardice triggers
< 1697591845 672013 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :or cast and counter it to get bloodbond march triggers
< 1697591875 462109 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :we need both types of triggers to get the dog back in hand
< 1697591910 114851 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, I see, you counter it in response to the bloodbond march trigger
< 1697591958 134576 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, thats what chancellor of the annex is for
< 1697592003 466409 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the chancellor of the annex had me both flummoxed and amused
< 1697592018 214591 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in competitive play, you play it in decks that go all-in turn 1 in order to increase the chance that your opponent can't stop you
< 1697592031 639465 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is exactly what this deck would do, if you ever actually tried to win with it
< 1697592046 601617 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :but we don't want it in our opening hand
< 1697592058 290052 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :we just give it to our opponent
< 1697592060 417884 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1697592088 285745 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is actually quite amusing that the TCness construction gives basically everything to the opponent
< 1697592124 648752 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in both your construction and mine, the only relevant thing we control during the whole TCness operation is one lingering effect from Arcbond or Massacre Girl
< 1697592154 960404 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and in fact you are using Kaervek's Spite, so you control no permanents and have no cards in hand)
< 1697592163 979487 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah we use APNAP to force the stack to stay the way we want
< 1697592183 996924 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :same here
< 1697592197 393432 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my first attempt to prove magic TC failed because i wasn't able to control the stack order precisely enough
< 1697592203 278337 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I was very cognisant of that the second time around
< 1697592218 585964 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :we actually can have some 2/2 zombies from ratadrabrick but none of the legends can affect the board anymore
< 1697592278 825368 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've debated the infinite loop rules several times in this channel, to work out what happens rules-wise if you do end up creating a nonterminating program (intentionally or by mistake)
< 1697592292 865917 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the obvious answer is "the game is a draw" but I don't think that's actually correct
< 1697592301 930214 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :its a draw
< 1697592308 662618 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :instead, I think someone gets a slow play penalty unless they concede, but I'm not sure whether it's you or your opponent
< 1697592331 393881 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the Magic rules are unable to call the situation a loop unless it actually repeats in a predictable manner
< 1697592402 28122 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if they *were* able, then Magic would probably be uncomputable rather than Turing-complete (but not with a Vintage-legal deck because it involves Shahrazad in order to be able to continue playing after a game is drawn)
< 1697592438 749629 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :104.4b If a game that’s not using the limited range of influence option (including a two-player game) somehow enters a “loop” of mandatory actions, repeating a sequence of events with no way to stop, the game is a draw. Loops that contain an optional action don’t result in a draw
< 1697592461 634966 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the controversial wording is "repeating a sequence of events"
< 1697592474 256351 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because if it isn't a trivial loop, the sequence doesn't actually repeat
< 1697592479 986641 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah
< 1697592504 822662 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the judges I talked to persuaded me that non-repeating infinite sequences are played out rather than automatically causing a draw
< 1697592539 222051 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(even though I originally thought it would be a draw)
< 1697592594 132323 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I considered trying to make a Shahrazad-oracle but its difficult to actually make use of the output of which player(s) loses half their life
< 1697592602 40374 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yu-Gi-Oh!'s infinite loop rules are way more fun in this respect, if an infinite loop is formed there, then the "card responsible" gets destroyed to stop the loop, and it often isn't 100% obvious which card that should be
< 1697592619 84437 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1697592698 893115 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the rule used to be that it was illegal to make a play that would form an infinite loop, but that got changed when someone created a deck which set up a gamestate in which the opponent doing anything at all would cause an infinite loop to start
< 1697592720 331247 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :thats impressive
< 1697592723 231078 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(which was mostly a griefing manouver because if you can set up a gamestate that complex, you might as well just win on the spot)
< 1697592804 51391 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :still impressive
< 1697592828 688436 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :though i don't know yugioh's card pool very well
< 1697592851 535735 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nor do I – I've been trying to learn enough of it to determine whether yugioh is TC
< 1697592865 575494 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I suspect it currently isn't, effects are almost always optional rather than mandatory in yugioh
< 1697592889 901937 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :and isn't boardspace very limited? same problem as like hearthstone
< 1697592911 145596 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, although counters and monster stats both exist as resources that could reasonably be manipulated
< 1697592930 742513 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's still hard to do anything useful – there isn't a Wild Evocation equivalent, so almost every card is unusable
< 1697592934 604828 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name Wild Evocation
< 1697592935 574489 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wild Evocation \ 5R \ Enchantment \ At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player reveals a card at random from their hand. If it's a land card, the player puts it onto the battlefield. Otherwise, the player casts it without paying its mana cost if able. \ M11-R
< 1697593002 36541 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and new infinite loops are only likely to be possible in the future if Konami makes a mistake, because the game is currently mostly balanced around being arbitrarily unable to win on turn 1
< 1697593041 434531 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :almost all top decks can storm off into a huge field from a random 5-card hand, so the game is balanced by the starting player being unable to actually win on that turn, so they have to set up a lot of disruption, and then the second player tries to win through the disruption and if they can't win that turn they usually lose
< 1697593075 370659 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :crazy hoe powercrept that game got
< 1697593092 192793 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :pretty much any loop with a useful output breaks that because it makes it possible to win on turn 1 and so the second player doesn't get a chance to break the board
< 1697593098 582160 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, it is ridiculous
< 1697593107 962258 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is some sort of beauty in it – I have been trying to learn
< 1697593117 594971 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it fundamentally makes the game almost impossible to balance
< 1697593163 838798 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in current decks, like half the deck has to be a 1-card combo that can set up a big board by itself starting from an empty field, so that you can try to play the first few and then win with the last when the first few get negated (= countered)
< 1697593174 876288 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or it isn't competitively viable
< 1697593188 176955 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at this rate, they will have to create a 0-card combo in order to keep the powercreep going well enough to sell sets
< 1697593203 122336 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(which is actually possible in Yu-Gi-Oh! mechanics)
< 1697593226 399537 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although they have been sensible enough not to enable any yet, it's mechanically possible but the card pool isn't there)
< 1697593237 459068 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :companion/commander style effects?
< 1697593247 929032 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yep, you get 15 of them
< 1697593262 892864 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :that is too many
< 1697593275 944182 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which are normally lower power than a typical M:tG commander would be, but well, they overbalance it with sheer quantity
< 1697593419 885301 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :its also funny to compare the power of card draw in yugioh to the pokemon tcg
< 1697593478 653183 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they are weirdly comparable – the difference is that in Yu-Gi-Oh! each card converts itself into 1 card + a little extra when it's played, whereas in Pokémon, 1 card converts itself into 7ish cards but you can only do it once per turn
< 1697593498 554467 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :like draw 2 cards is busted broken in yugioh, and pokemon is like how about instead timetwister
< 1697593503 613022 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so both games go through huge numbers of cards in a turn but for different reasons
< 1697593516 479683 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a costless draw 2 would be broken in pretty much any TCG
< 1697593549 346831 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but adding a cost can quickly plummet that value, depending on the game
< 1697593591 52003 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in Netrunner, you get four "clicks" per turn and need to spend a click to do pretty much anything, but you can use otherwise unused clicks to gain credits (=mana) or to draw cards, so you can draw 4 cards in a turn as long as you don't do anything else
< 1697593624 856054 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which makes it very hard to get entirely resource-screwed, you can still play if you draw no economy cards, it's just slower
< 1697593634 735472 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, netrunner has a much better action economy
< 1697593698 352930 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is interesting to compare a 1-resource game (cards in Yu-Gi-Oh!) to a 2-resource game (cards and mana in Magic) to a 3-resource game (cards and credits and clicks in Netrunner)
< 1697593755 646654 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the fewer resources you have, the harder it is to stop broken infinite combos forming
< 1697593769 488318 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(that said, even Netrunner has had a few infinite combos, but none that break the game)
< 1697593799 971264 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, though mtg can subdivide mana into more types
< 1697593823 4384 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :and uses life as a resource pretty heavily
< 1697593830 454486 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have mixed feelings about that – color screw feels less fair than mana screw in a way
< 1697593864 894979 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because it's basically a case of, you can choose how powerful your deck is by choosing how many colors you play, but the more colors you go for, the greater the chance of randomly bricking and having a non-game
< 1697593905 339961 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in Legacy, for example, games where RW Initiative is playing are nearly always determined by how good the RW Initiative deck's starting hand and topdecks are
< 1697593923 444890 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is very hard to beat unless it bricks, but it bricks quite frequently (usually either mana flood, mana screw or color screw)
< 1697593943 688291 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah they have made better fixing lands, but its still a problem
< 1697593963 727728 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :RW Initiative's primary problem is that it can't actually play good color fixing due to the nature of the deck
< 1697593982 27432 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because it has, or at least wants, to make 4 mana on turn 1 in order to function
< 1697593992 579702 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it's full of Ancient Tombs and Chrome Moxen and the like
< 1697594002 136842 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :well that's pretty ambitious
< 1697594027 814896 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes – it's a testament to Magic's card pool that it was even possible to get it semi-consistent
< 1697594037 897572 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and if you do manage it you usually win
< 1697594046 677961 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unless you have nothing good to cast with it
< 1697594240 479352 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :like vintage oops! all spells decks that try to make 4 (or 7) mana to win with baullistrade spy (or goblin charbelcher) flipping over their deck with no lands.
< 1697594260 514345 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that deck exists in Vintage, Legacy, Modern and Pauper nowadays
< 1697594270 184430 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(admittedly the Pauper deck plays 59 spells rather than 60)
< 1697594294 284181 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :is edge of autumn a common?
< 1697594305 377485 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name edge of autumn
< 1697594306 510701 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Edge of Autumn \ 1G \ Sorcery \ If you control four or fewer lands, search your library for a basic land card, put it onto the battlefield tapped, then shuffle your library. \ Cycling--Sacrifice a land. (Sacrifice a land, Discard this card: Draw a card.) \ FUT-C, DDG-C
< 1697594308 915880 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1697594336 336978 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I don't think it's played in One Land Spy
< 1697594375 474590 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think of it as mostly a card for Doomsday
< 1697594379 921306 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :and i think theres also a card that you can alt cast by revealing you have no lands in hand to search for a basic into your hand
< 1697594390 652748 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name Land Grant
< 1697594392 2871 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Land Grant \ 1G \ Sorcery \ If you have no land cards in hand, you may reveal your hand rather than pay this spell's mana cost. \ Search your library for a Forest card, reveal that card, and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library. \ MM-C
< 1697594402 969326 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's the primary reason that One Land Spy plays its one land
< 1697594426 841543 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah that one
< 1697594555 955423 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's fun that these decks exist, but would be bad for the game if they were ever top-tier or even second-tier
< 1697594574 446173 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, completely
< 1697594592 702140 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :though doomsday is pretty scary in vintage
< 1697594635 234686 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think Doomsday is good for the game – the Legacy version is great fun to watch if played by someone competent at the deck, and it's also great fun to watch someone competent play against it
< 1697594649 876362 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it can play around pretty much everything, but ends up having to play into something else in the process
< 1697594690 82726 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, i really like the skill of making the right pile and also playing against the optimal pile
< 1697594702 843501 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least when its not just over immediately
< 1697594734 105749 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and there are so many cards that beat it, often in bizarre and surprising ways, so trying to work out what to play around / what you might have that can beat what the opponent was playing around is so interesting
< 1697594887 848665 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :dress down, ancestral recall targeting them, removal, flusterstorm, not to mention what's already on the board
< 1697594991 784966 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even something like wasteland can do wonders if they weren't expecting it
< 1697595058 704510 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, or surgical extraction on their doomsday to shuffle their pile
< 1697595134 443103 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is fun to watch Doomsday pilots play around Endurance
< 1697595153 166623 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is like the Surgical but more so, and because it can be pitch-cast, often comes alongside some other disruption
< 1697595225 321522 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :or noxious revival
< 1697595248 599410 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think I've seen that one used against Doomsday, that's hilarious
< 1697595512 932943 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :sometimes its all a Bazaar of Baghdad player can do
< 1697600866 191039 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@97-120-159-76.ptld.qwest.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1697601178 57614 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainbits14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118051&oldid=118049 5* 03Yb1 5* (+345) 10thanks None1 & infobox & cleaning errors
> 1697602020 802002 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Three Star Programmer14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118052&oldid=118050 5* 03Ais523 5* (+0) 10/* Variants */ typo fix
> 1697603209 477627 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Alx 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:HolyPy.jpg10]]": HolyPy logo.
> 1697604867 43333 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07It Is Not What It Is14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118054&oldid=117265 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+29) 10Categories
< 1697605532 510135 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see that many explanations of category theory seem to use the category of sets as an example, although it seems to me more obvious how a category is like a monoid and that the category of matrices is a more obvious example. Why is that?
> 1697605811 522606 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Muddle++14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118055&oldid=54819 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+57) 10Stub, categories
< 1697607013 161779 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: ais523
> 1697610105 221623 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07HolyPy14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118056 5* 03Alx 5* (+11836) 10Created page with "= HolyPy = This page is written up on the HolyPy version: <pre>HolyPy Stable-Closed v3.8</pre>.  [[File: HolyPy.jpg]]  {| class="wikitable" ! Associated file extensions || Descriptor |- | <code>.hpy</code> || The non-compiled extension type recognised by HolyPy. |- | <code>
> 1697610199 800512 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Alx14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118057&oldid=116643 5* 03Alx 5* (+24) 10
> 1697610242 761321 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Alx14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118058&oldid=118057 5* 03Alx 5* (-36) 10
< 1697612944 612393 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1697613992 421954 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :An initial state, and a sequence of commands; each command transforms the state.
< 1697614093 624843 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lots of programming languages are like this.  But also theorem provers; each command is a tactic, the state is the "proof obligations".
< 1697614126 579652 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :The proofs in such systems look like magical incantations sometimes, but this is mainly because you only see the commands, you don't see the state.
< 1697614238 608810 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Other proof styles put the emphasis on the other side: they list the states, the transformations used are parenthetical.
< 1697614291 79565 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :As a programmer, it's much easier for me to "see" the unwritten state of a program, than to "see" the unwritten yet-to-be-discharged obligations of a proof.
< 1697614516 672962 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :> the transformations used are parenthetical.  <-- You can go beyond "parenthetical" and leave out the commands completely; but then the proof system has to search for what command must have been meant.  In that direction lies automated proving.
< 1697614517 969926 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : <hint>:1:46: error: parse error on input ‘<--’
< 1697614526 528362 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh sorry lambdabot, didn't see you there
< 1697614610 270350 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Just writing about this because realizing my interest in theorem provers is largely an interest in the languages they use (rather than strictly what they can do for you) and why those languages look the way they do.
< 1697615085 805638 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's not to say that theorem provers can't do some pretty valuable things for you, of course!
< 1697615433 621707 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1697616851 388703 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow, that's an unexpectedly long chain between different colors of mana
< 1697617296 561005 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ravnica has this story where Agrus Kos, a Boros elite soldier, after his death returns as an oathspirit bound to the Azorius. but it seems like the only card that kind of represents this is https://scryfall.com/card/j22/1/agrus-kos-eternal-soldier . wouldn't it be nice if one of the later Ravnica-themed sets added yet another Necromancer, this time an Azorius one, that triggers on any Soldier dying and 
< 1697617302 568515 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :creates a white Spirit token?
< 1697617491 277393 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
< 1697618142 326186 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1697618679 962192 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"which are normally lower power than a typical M:tG commander would be" => M:tG tried the more powerful free effects once, with companion, but it got so powerful that they had to change their rules to blatantly different than what the printed card says, which I think is an almost unprecedented for modern cards
< 1697618694 293412 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :usually if they have broken cards they just ban or restrict them instead
> 1697619014 553101 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SDOTOS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118059&oldid=117732 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+116) 10
> 1697619036 567963 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SDOTOS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118060&oldid=118059 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+0) 10/* parity */
> 1697619103 535192 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SDOTOS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118061&oldid=118060 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+3) 10/* Truth-machine */
< 1697619682 526995 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1697620315 612569 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1697620419 754483 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :<cpressey> The proofs in such systems look like magical incantations sometimes, but this is mainly because you only see the commands, you don't see the state.  <-- This is also why pointfree style is so opaque. If you add in some "let"s you at least give the intermediate states *names*, which can help in "seeing" them
< 1697620559 86944 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: in that case it must follow that if you program prolog, where every intermediate result has a name, then your program will be even more readable
< 1697620737 688790 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :that sort of thing is why I wrote "can help" instead of "helps"
< 1697620784 698022 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't trust the compiler to do name mangling properly.  I mangle my *own* names at *design time* before I even *write* the code.
< 1697621610 169524 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :MangledNameFactoryBean
< 1697621643 930233 :Koen!~Koen@sp137-h01-176-145-72-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
< 1697622138 13239 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1697624188 46160 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Deadfish++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118062&oldid=117979 5* 03Europe2048 5* (-1) 10
< 1697625714 612846 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1697626886 212927 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :An alternative to "let" is to keep definitions small, and each definition has a name.  This works for concatenative programming, and also for proofs (this is what lemmas are).
< 1697626886 707325 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :But often it's hard to find a good name because there's no intuition for the intermediate thing you're naming.
< 1697626887 207798 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :If lemmas are useful enough to be reused, they get a name (like "pumping" or "Yoneda") but if they aren't they're just numbered, which hardly helps.
< 1697627076 439174 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Gotta name all the passes in a micropass compiler, too.
< 1697627145 9694 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or more to the point, you can leave them nameless at your peril
< 1697627263 623831 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Coming up with a name is a way of saving future maintainers the effort of reverse-engineering the definition.
> 1697627299 294616 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Capsule14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118063&oldid=117905 5* 03Leol22 5* (-64) 10
< 1697628398 259158 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :But thinking more about visualizing the intermediate state itself, in a stack-based language, you could have a "stack should look like this now" assertion which can be inserted at any point
< 1697628421 596945 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which kind of relates to types.
< 1697628428 168464 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)
< 1697628488 613998 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1697628583 684572 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :> let 15 = 3 * 5 in 15 + 1
< 1697628585 622378 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : 16
< 1697628651 774213 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :> let 99 = 3 * 5 in 99 + 1
< 1697628653 198898 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : 100
< 1697628800 255733 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is it just me or is Haskell becoming an increasingly cavalier language these days?
< 1697628909 976089 :Koen!~Koen@sp137-h01-176-145-72-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr PRIVMSG #esolangs :hard to say
< 1697628927 229260 :Koen!~Koen@sp137-h01-176-145-72-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe there was a warning not reproduced by lambdabot
< 1697629003 969715 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :> do 3 + 3
< 1697629005 482212 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : 6
< 1697629036 241116 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1697629060 612612 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1697629094 261644 :Koen!~Koen@sp137-h01-176-145-72-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr PRIVMSG #esolangs :for a minute I thought you had ragequit because you didn't like that 3+3 was 6
< 1697629111 460816 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :No, I just have a lousy connection.
< 1697629168 622696 :cpressey15!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1697629358 613735 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1697629367 337287 :cpressey15!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway, no warnings from either of those if I try them locally in ghci 9.2.8
< 1697629376 173129 :cpressey15!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net NICK :cpressey
< 1697629532 865079 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :It would be great if the increasingly flexible behaviour of `do` was due to it working on any instance of a typeclass called `Doable` but I'm pretty sure it's not
< 1697629544 169017 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :(due you see what I did there)
< 1697629801 807076 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)
< 1697630916 25148 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1697631442 154157 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1697631470 806916 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've no idea what that let 99 = 3 * 5 in 99 + 1 thing is trying to do and why it's accepted silently
> 1697633313 361995 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CQfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118064&oldid=117171 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+67) 10Introduced a truth-machine as a third example.
> 1697633353 302015 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CQfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118065&oldid=118064 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+163) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the CQfuck programming language on GitHub.
< 1697634241 613022 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1697634507 369256 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: I've posed it to the #haskell channel
< 1697635512 625353 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :tl;dr ghc doesn't issue warnings unless you tell it to
< 1697636910 702334 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: right, that's the default for gcc or perl too (except maybe a very few warnings). for gcc I'm used to always using -Wall and then occasionally explicitly suppressing warnings. this works much better than with msvc, because gcc's -Wall option (which, despite its name, doesn't enable all warnings) has a set chosen pretty well
< 1697636950 890745 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it's somewhat reasonable that the IRC bot suppresses warnings for conciseness of both input and output. geordi suppresses most warnings too for that reason.
< 1697637078 520885 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's of course a little bit of a compatibility problem here, with long-lived projects, because sometimes users of libraries complain that the libraries give warnings in new compilers, since the new compiler added new warnings that are usually useful. the compilers/interpreters have to strike a balance between compatible old behavior and useful
< 1697637079 19760 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :new behavior, as happens in lots of things other than warnings too.
< 1697637281 399736 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah it all adds up; in some sense this is a bot usability issue; I understand why you don't want the channel to be spammed with warnings, but some way to indicate them would be nice.  Maybe privmsg?  Maybe not.
> 1697637364 112137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Brainbits14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118066 5* 03None1 5* (+221) 10Created page with "Brainfuck is TC only if brackets (loops) can be nested at leastbtwo levels deep, this esolang does not allow this, so it is not TC (probably). --~~~~"
> 1697637381 139008 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Brainbits14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118067&oldid=118066 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10
> 1697638370 261916 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainbits14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118068&oldid=118051 5* 03None1 5* (+5) 10/* Cat program */
< 1697638664 658434 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)
> 1697639169 830644 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118069&oldid=117867 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+774) 10/* Aleph 2= */
> 1697639222 209388 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118070&oldid=118069 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+2) 10/* a stronk infinity */
< 1697640020 988851 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1697640859 157086 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Beatnik14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118071&oldid=90788 5* 03HaleyHalcyon 5* (+732) 10Mentioned lack of vocabulary restriction and example high-value words
> 1697640884 473843 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Beatnik14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118072&oldid=118071 5* 03HaleyHalcyon 5* (+4) 10/* Commands */
< 1697642184 306465 :Koen!~Koen@sp137-h01-176-145-72-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr QUIT :Quit: Leaving...
< 1697642986 567117 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1697643465 117121 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078-Bit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118073&oldid=118043 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+65) 10/* Implementation */
> 1697643494 50715 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078-Bit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118074&oldid=118073 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+2) 10/* Implementation */
> 1697643578 351978 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078-Bit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118075&oldid=118074 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+1) 10
> 1697644280 628300 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118076&oldid=118070 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+175) 10
< 1697646578 272988 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1697647335 392955 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
< 1697648310 627787 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1697648609 585158 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Out of curiosity, what is it about existing parser generators, in your opinion, that makes them produce inefficient code?
< 1697648788 905122 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I might be misremembering what you said.  You said that parser combinator libraries make it too easy to accidentally build a slow parser.
< 1697648833 75727 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that's mainly due to accidentally allowing backtracking.
< 1697648936 317350 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've never tried a PEG parser.  I don't find them very appealing.  Although I've definitely seen people who are definitely fans of them.
< 1697649990 122332 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1697650446 393795 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey (for when you get back): existing parser generators are usually very branchy, so the processor can't predict well unless you're parsing something that follows a predictable pattern
< 1697650460 119926 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but yes, main problem with combinators is accidental backtracking
< 1697650511 518926 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm also not a huge fan of PEG parsers: a) despite being linear-time, the constant factors are bad; b) their alternation-like operator is unintuitive and can easily end up accidentally rejecting parses you want to accept
< 1697650568 32603 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually PEG is a lot like combinators, in the sense that if you write a parser with a combinator library that would accidentally backtrack, the equivalent PEG grammar would accidentally reject some valid inputs
< 1697650580 301571 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the latter behaviour is easier to discover in testing
< 1697650757 697084 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :O, finally they are starting to implement "functionname( arguments ORDER BY sortlist )" in SQLite.
< 1697650848 151352 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :does the sorting rearrange one argument relative to another, or does it reorder the elements of a single list-like argument?
< 1697650885 914376 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the former behaviour only really makes sense with variadic functions
< 1697650916 633743 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, it would be a fun way to do control flow in an esolang, especially if the function were overloaded and the arguments had different types
< 1697651130 700343 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it means that the function must be a aggregate function.
< 1697651549 358476 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: the new parser generator that you're considering to make, is that for work? 
< 1697651731 113157 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I don't have a job at the moment
< 1697651750 325339 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been struggling to concentrate for a few years now, possibly long Covid
< 1697651767 482219 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I spend so much time unable to do anything
< 1697651791 553800 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I'm concerned about getting a job in case I just turn up, fail to do anything and get fired
< 1697651828 492294 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that sucks
< 1697651841 578076 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :good luck with job hunting then
< 1697651862 183197 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been kind-of wondering if I should make something on my own that I can sell
< 1697651866 92003 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but even that is going very slowly
< 1697652080 619783 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the new parser generator is something that I've been planning for over 3 years now but keep getting things wrong or being too tired to work on it
< 1697652550 256274 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Quit: gone too far
< 1697652993 418425 :__monty_1!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
< 1697653009 957087 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :*.net *.split
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< 1697656555 833323 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1697657160 592287 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1697657523 861169 :vyv!~vyv@bras-vprn-nrbaon0452w-lp130-16-76-68-64-196.dsl.bell.ca JOIN #esolangs vyv :vyv verver
< 1697657725 833482 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1697657731 707393 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi!
< 1697659096 577552 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
< 1697661316 959575 :vyv!~vyv@bras-vprn-nrbaon0452w-lp130-16-76-68-64-196.dsl.bell.ca QUIT :Quit: Konversation terminated!
< 1697661553 937313 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1697662029 566568 :__monty_1!~toonn@user/toonn NICK :__monty__
< 1697662045 205213 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1697663427 760293 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1697663959 362718 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Ice Bird 5*  10New user account
> 1697664163 849359 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118077&oldid=118026 5* 03Ice Bird 5* (+139) 10
> 1697664259 44682 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118078&oldid=118077 5* 03Ice Bird 5* (+86) 10
> 1697665766 642277 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ForgottenV14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118079&oldid=82526 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+39) 10Stub, category
< 1697667239 106571 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1697673561 782470 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[072 Bits, 1 Byte14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118080&oldid=100411 5* 03TheBigH 5* (+108) 10
> 1697673666 258451 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:2 Bits, 1 Byte14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118081&oldid=99677 5* 03TheBigH 5* (+111) 10
> 1697673681 647055 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:2 Bits, 1 Byte14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118082&oldid=118081 5* 03TheBigH 5* (+10) 10
> 1697674522 301345 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Compaline14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118083 5* 03Ice Bird 5* (+1048) 10Created page with "'''Compaline''' is an [[esoteric programming language]], invented on 19 October 2023, by [[User:Ice Bird|Ice Bird]]. Its name is a portmanteau of "comparison" and "timeline", which a reference to several removed YouTube videos made by JG Science. The commands are ref
> 1697674545 839062 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TeaScript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118084&oldid=46415 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+110) 10Categories
< 1697674909 116330 :wpa!uid568065@id-568065.helmsley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs WeepingAngel :wpa
< 1697677048 479752 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1697677076 328663 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1697679169 432630 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Compaline14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118085&oldid=118083 5* 03Quito0567 5* (-239) 10
> 1697679229 222870 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Compaline14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118086&oldid=118085 5* 03Quito0567 5* (+7) 10
> 1697679255 514132 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Compaline14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118087&oldid=118086 5* 03Quito0567 5* (-13) 10
> 1697679368 388895 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Compaline14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118088&oldid=118087 5* 03Quito0567 5* (-60) 10
> 1697679414 127094 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Compaline14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118089&oldid=118088 5* 03Quito0567 5* (+6) 10
< 1697679913 838106 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
> 1697680303 246790 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Compaline14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118090&oldid=118089 5* 03Ice Bird 5* (+299) 10stop
< 1697680651 591400 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-14-126.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1697682078 312991 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1697683309 869164 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1697683695 965752 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1697691262 821689 :wpa!uid568065@id-568065.helmsley.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
> 1697691716 30740 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CASISP14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118091&oldid=68969 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+9) 10Stub
< 1697696910 807553 :MrAureliusR!~MrAureliu@user/mraureliusr QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1697697287 285805 :MrAureliusR!~MrAureliu@user/mraureliusr JOIN #esolangs MrAureliusR :Got ZNC?
< 1697697872 188748 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1697700562 805736 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1697702688 966346 :Koen!~Koen@78.199.192.3 JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
< 1697705481 89772 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1697710364 989678 :wpa!uid568065@id-568065.helmsley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs WeepingAngel :wpa
< 1697715304 361252 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1697716585 751456 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Susam 5*  10New user account
< 1697718552 184370 :wpa!uid568065@id-568065.helmsley.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
> 1697719291 45515 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078-Bit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118092&oldid=118075 5* 03None1 5* (+1) 10/* One-Time Cat */
> 1697719366 737908 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07One Time Cat14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118093&oldid=103542 5* 03None1 5* (+69) 10
< 1697719603 468341 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
> 1697719720 967492 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ErrorLang14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118094 5* 03None1 5* (+352) 10Created page with "ErrorLang is an esolang that is like [[Error]]. ==Execution== Every program raises an error, the error message is {{hw}}, then, both the program and the interpreter will be deleted. ==Examples== ===Hello World===  Any text can go here This has side effects: It deletes th
> 1697719800 600037 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118095&oldid=117837 5* 03None1 5* (+63) 10/* General languages */
> 1697719823 611858 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118096&oldid=118022 5* 03None1 5* (+63) 10/* My Esolangs */
> 1697719910 172498 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ErrorLang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118097&oldid=118094 5* 03None1 5* (+27) 10
> 1697720350 453884 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ErrorLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118098&oldid=118097 5* 03None1 5* (+205) 10
> 1697720425 466515 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ErrorLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118099&oldid=118098 5* 03None1 5* (+107) 10/* Interpreter */
> 1697722869 314694 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[072 Bits, 1 Byte14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118100&oldid=118080 5* 03None1 5* (+94) 10/* Interpreters */
> 1697722965 591079 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118101&oldid=118096 5* 03None1 5* (+27) 10/* My Implementations */
> 1697723025 736496 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[072 Bits, 1 Byte14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118102&oldid=118100 5* 03None1 5* (+21) 10/* Example codes */
> 1697723311 582961 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[072 Bits, 1 Byte14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118103&oldid=118102 5* 03None1 5* (+25) 10/* Output 'm' */
< 1697724354 512006 :Cale!~cale@cpe80d04ade0a03-cm80d04ade0a01.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
> 1697724484 12113 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118104&oldid=117596 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (-56) 10/* Chickens */ A chicken is now preserved in the garden
> 1697724907 676922 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfish14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118105&oldid=117972 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+31) 10/* External resources */ new cat
> 1697724995 327065 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07HQ9+14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118106&oldid=105897 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+31) 10/* External resources */ new cat
> 1697725038 521390 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ACHEQUEUENINETHOUSANDPLUS14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118107&oldid=101018 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+31) 10/* External resources */ new cat
> 1697725101 948790 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AHQ9+-14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118108&oldid=101015 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+31) 10/* See also */
< 1697726623 107084 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1697729986 595619 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.149.238.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1697730198 790299 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1697730958 833673 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1697733902 897593 :Cale!~cale@cpe80d04ade0a03-cm80d04ade0a01.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN #esolangs Cale :realname
> 1697735511 126876 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfish++14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118109&oldid=118044 5* 03Europe2048 5* (+222) 10
> 1697736367 871452 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Cinnamony14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118110&oldid=110727 5* 03Europe2048 5* (-61) 10Removed deleted picture to save space.
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< 1697739722 188641 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
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> 1697743741 479031 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Malbrain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118111&oldid=40140 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+241) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the Malbrain programming language on GitHub.
< 1697744459 799079 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:d115:ecfe:1ef4:7596 JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie
< 1697745373 840426 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1697745379 937660 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi everyone!
< 1697746546 338885 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.149.238.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi bye
< 1697746548 278862 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.149.238.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Quit: gone too far
> 1697746887 320630 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Malbrain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118112&oldid=118111 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+225) 10Added a truth-machine program, and subsumed all three extant examples into a common section.
< 1697747036 820066 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think you know of Super Mario Bros. Wonder, right?
> 1697747374 429588 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Malbrain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118113&oldid=118112 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+494) 10Introduced a tabular summary of the command transitions and improved the code fragments' formatting.
> 1697747528 243859 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Malbrain14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118114&oldid=118113 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+25) 10Improved two code fragments' formatting.
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> 1697754473 681770 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118115&oldid=118078 5* 03Susam 5* (+148) 10/* Introductions */
> 1697754642 143508 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CFR14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118116 5* 03Susam 5* (+6226) 10Create page for CFR[]
> 1697755430 706131 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Malbrain14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118117&oldid=118114 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+14) 10Relocated the pertinent document fragments into the newly introduced Commands section.
< 1697755771 302519 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:d115:ecfe:1ef4:7596 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
> 1697755873 485753 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:CFR14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118118 5* 03Quito0567 5* (+126) 10Created page with "Is there an implementation of this? --~~~~"
> 1697755958 729080 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:CFR14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118119&oldid=118118 5* 03Quito0567 5* (+34) 10
> 1697755973 390332 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:CFR14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118120&oldid=118119 5* 03Quito0567 5* (+3) 10
> 1697756098 892641 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:CFR14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118121&oldid=118120 5* 03Quito0567 5* (-163) 10Blanked the page
< 1697761410 67399 :we11en!~we11en@user/utoneq JOIN #esolangs zut :we11en
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< 1697763586 886440 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
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> 1697784881 494935 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118122&oldid=118007 5* 03Peter01 5* (-20) 10/* H */  Please, stop.
< 1697787452 624976 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1697790041 384612 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1697790170 401974 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
< 1697791473 248323 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:5db3:4a43:ec04:d365 JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
> 1697794873 297785 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Cinnamony14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118123&oldid=118110 5* 03None1 5* (-11) 10/* Picture */
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< 1697796249 211010 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: you might enjoy this: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-cursed-white.png
> 1697797034 389574 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CFR14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118124&oldid=118116 5* 03None1 5* (+23) 10
> 1697797706 609503 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[073 Bits, 3 Bytes14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118125 5* 03None1 5* (+1082) 10Create language
> 1697797729 199793 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[073 Bits, 3 Bytes14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118126&oldid=118125 5* 03None1 5* (+1) 10
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> 1697798137 525870 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[073 Bits, 3 Bytes14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118128&oldid=118127 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10
> 1697798179 740145 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[073 Bits, 3 Bytes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118129&oldid=118128 5* 03None1 5* (+51) 10
> 1697798233 830178 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118130&oldid=118095 5* 03None1 5* (+61) 10/* General languages */
> 1697798244 806680 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118131&oldid=118101 5* 03None1 5* (+61) 10/* My Esolangs */
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> 1697798475 499872 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118132&oldid=118131 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* My Esolangs */
> 1697798527 683295 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[073 Bits, 3 Bytes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118133&oldid=118129 5* 03None1 5* (+34) 10
< 1697800097 385060 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1697800122 388474 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: does that break by getting desynchronized when you save and load?
< 1697800154 209520 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it really is cursed, usually you want white paint in a large amount so it's not worth to multiplex a single painter for it, and this doesn't even save space
< 1697800158 90366 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :s/painter/mixer/
< 1697800200 383300 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: It survived my reload test. But it'll still desync whenever you hold it wrong. And yes, the throughput is half of what you'd get with two mixers so it's really just a curiosity.
< 1697800232 746902 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :My first uploaded version couldn't even be reset properly, but I fixed that :-)
< 1697800415 747435 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :if it's not practical, can you turn it into a puzzle instead?
< 1697801597 464 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :No, because puzzles don't have mergers or balancers. (They *do* have double painters though which sort-of can merge shapes, and people abuse that quite a bit.)
< 1697801849 301920 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I believe that design choice is actually a good one... there's just too much crazy things you can do with balancers and they tend to be extremely tricky to balance.
< 1697802258 414010 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :makes sense
< 1697808373 835908 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1697810688 368211 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1697811177 832595 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi ais523
< 1697812556 539803 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1697812665 587395 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi cpressey
< 1697812684 633883 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :do you logread? I replied to your questions from a couple of days ago in the logs, but you weren't online, and I don't know whether you read them
< 1697812702 730563 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2023-10-18.html#lLe
< 1697812840 419052 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh sorry, yes, I saw your response, thank you.  Then I kind of forgot about it...
< 1697812878 443624 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw I have been wondering about fun things like "an entirely branchless lexer+parser combination" (where the only branch is to handle EOF)
< 1697812891 783752 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs ::O
< 1697812893 427357 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the same code does both the lexing and hte parsing
< 1697812915 932238 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION posts a squinting-Fry reaction gif

< 1697812921 114236 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is of course possible in theory because branchless programming is TC, but I'm wondering whether it might be possible to get it more efficient than a traditional parser
< 1697812965 17275 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :something like yacc has to have branches everywhere on whether it's read a lookahead token or not – ironically, just reading it unconditionally would probably be more efficient, because you wouldn't have to check whether you'd done it or not
< 1697812990 301733 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know much about branchless but I can imagine a sort of thing where you turn all the parsing operations into matrix operations or something
< 1697813036 50462 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, it would change the semantics because you could no longer get the parser to change the way the next token was lexed (only the one after)
< 1697813036 75121 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1697813050 506035 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
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< 1697813138 566763 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1697813165 117069 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one thing that I have realised is that there are only finitely many possible states for the lookahead tokens to be in (for most standard parser types – LL(*) is an exception)
< 1697813189 632705 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you could in theory combine them with the parser states
< 1697813234 662742 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am not sure whether this would cause a combinational explosion – it's quite possible that it doesn't, because you wouldn't have to be able to store lookahead tokens that would inevitably cause an error anyway, you can just produce the error on the spot
< 1697813385 524886 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you're talking LL(1) you can compute the FIRST set of each production, which is usually small.  Combining this with the set of all the productions would usually lead to a huge product set, I don't think.
< 1697813396 74679 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :*wouldn't
< 1697813473 143996 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, and LR(1) is similar – canonical LR(1) has a lookahead set for each production, which again is usually small, and holds all the symbols that can possibly correctly appear in lookahead
< 1697813511 224220 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which implies that the various compressed LR(1) formats, like LALR(1), could also handle it
< 1697813749 539083 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :So one thing I've heard is that "recursive descent is better than LR in modern world because the LR lookup tables for realistically sized grammars don't fit in cache lines".  This was a long time ago though, maybe 20 years ago.  I don't know if it was then true or is still true.
< 1697813782 403820 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also heard that the Lua team replaced their yacc parser with a hand-crafted RDP and the speedup was significant, something like 2x
< 1697813831 995043 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think of LR grammars as having a large LR table, but it's compressed for storage and used in the compressed form
< 1697813840 199588 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and think that parsers can be optimised by finding better ways to compress it
< 1697813851 723596 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :looking at LR tables generated by yacc and friends, there is a lot of repetition
< 1697813899 499414 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also think recursive descent parsers use more cache than the typical LR table does, but it's L1c rather than L1d, which may matter – there is normally less pressure on the code cache while parsing than on the data cache
< 1697813940 796708 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I generally don't work on this level of optimization, anyway; for me "efficient" means "in P instead of in EXPTIME" :)
< 1697814355 784129 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm working on a grammar formalism, but it's not for building parsers; it's a lot like an attribute grammar or DCG, the main improvement over these being that it can generate strings as efficiently as it can parse them.  (again, "efficiently" meaning "avoiding exponential blowup")
< 1697814413 907295 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie
< 1697814477 985466 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :You can run a DCG "forwards or backwards" in a relational programming language like Prolog or miniKanren to do this, but if it's efficient in one direction (parsing) it will be inefficient in the other direction (generation).
< 1697814498 842964 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I don't have a proof of this but this was my experience from playing with it extensively)
< 1697814689 601770 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: oh, that's interesting
< 1697814727 130523 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one of the things I was looking at was the possibility of bootstrapping a parser, and an idea I had to do that was to write the parser in Prolog
< 1697814735 848379 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and have it generate its own source code by unparsing itself
< 1697814745 769796 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I didn't actually get it to work beyond a small proof of concept
< 1697814760 373575 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1697814765 478032 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I'm not sure what the efficiency was like
< 1697814814 285113 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 JOIN #esolangs * :b_jonas
< 1697814958 190575 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but yes, I don't normally work on this level of optimization either, but thought it would be a fun (and potentially practically useful) followup to the fizzbuzz
> 1697815946 749242 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Jack Eisenmann14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118134&oldid=50339 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+30) 10Stub, category
< 1697816935 327415 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1697817634 219921 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm having a heck of a time getting backtracking right in the generation case.  I probably need to step back.
< 1697817727 218507 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:d115:ecfe:1ef4:7596 JOIN #esolangs * :Thelie
< 1697817820 772068 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :If I can do it, though, it ought to be neat.  To be able to write a grammar that can solve knapsack problems.  That sort of thing.
< 1697817874 586036 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I'm missing the fact that a loop can have three outcomes: it can terminal successfully, it can fail (and cause backtracking in the enclosing context), or it can repeat (and then you ask this question again and get these three outcomes again)
< 1697817881 576417 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :*terminate
< 1697817893 684784 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe it'd be easier to generate in parallel rather than using backtracking?
< 1697817906 671606 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this is comparable to using a call queue rather than a call stack)
< 1697817980 465311 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, in some ways that would be nicer, yes -- like miniKanren, you won't get stuck in an infinite DFS.
< 1697817999 917097 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :But the flipside is that you can start being a memory hog!
< 1697818157 181287 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, it's probably bad from a memory point of view unless you can compress the storage somehow
< 1697818243 479294 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :At some point earlier this year I ended up reading GOFAI textbooks trying to understand if "truth management" could be used to narrow down the search space for that sort of thing.
< 1697818331 62864 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which was somewhat interesting, actually, because in the modern world those algorithms no longer look like "artificial intelligence", they just look like search space optimization
< 1697818343 375893 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1697818353 873808 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: "because the LR lookup tables for realistically sized grammars don't fit in cache lines" => yes, and that's why I don't think a branchless parser is such a good idea
< 1697818452 676744 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, one cache line is 64 bytes, and the L1 data cache as a whole is normally 32 KiB
< 1697818464 589210 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can't fit a parser into the former, but the latter seems plausible
< 1697818527 679043 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, I think the real problem is handling output from the parser efficiently
< 1697818545 755045 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :normally parsers are used to build a tree-structured AST, but that's inherently slow
< 1697818555 65441 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: what if you could turn it into a numerical matrix problem (insert lots of handwaving here) and run it on the GPU though?
< 1697818601 963282 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually, I think someone did something like that for parsing JSON
< 1697818843 204464 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was apparently thinking of "simdjson".  But it looks like ppl have tried using GPU to parse CSV and JSON.  But these are very specialized approaches, a general approach feels very much like it still requires a lot of handwaving
< 1697818973 387432 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :GPUs don't obviously map well to most parsing algorithms
< 1697818988 574532 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they might be good at the algorithm used for DCGs, that one feels somewhat parallel in spirit
< 1697819055 495788 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it feels weird trying to use a GPU to speed up something that's linear-time anyway, though
< 1697819381 591886 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, the algorithm for DCGs is no different than the rest of Prolog; it's basically syntax sugar for inference rules.  I tried search for GPU-accelerated inference engines and all the results are AI stuff, because that's what "inference engine" means in 2023.
< 1697819650 30580 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I said the wrong thing, I didn't mean DCGs but PCGs
< 1697819655 909881 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, PEGs
< 1697820055 635778 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah.  Hm, well PEGs backtrack, but they use ordered choice, which doesn't feel very parallel-y to me; I assumed that it was generally implemented linearly with some kind of DFS.  But I haven't looked at their implementation.  ("packrat parsing" is it?)
< 1697820097 730760 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's basically dynamic programming
< 1697820100 745514 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :My brain wants to say "how is this not dynamic programming / memoization all over again"
< 1697820114 217874 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Exactly
< 1697820134 658701 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the reason it's linear time is that there are only finitely many things that could be memoized per token of input
< 1697820146 61300 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, instead of memoizing on demand, you could possibly calculate them all in parallel
< 1697820235 352089 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :GPUs don't require the things they're calculating in parallel to be entirely independent, just to have similar code – the various threads are allowed to communicate with each other, and in some special cases can do so very efficiently
< 1697820373 723456 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I think I see my confusion regarding backtracking generation now - but now I don't understand how I thought the backtracking parsing part was working - I might've chosen a bad example to use as a test)
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< 1697821791 665859 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, so you're saying that how he GPU parsing would work like this. for each n from 0 to logarithm, you split the document to 2**n long infixes, and parse each of those infixes starting from each parser state. if 0==n then you just look up the transition rules, whereas for 0<n you check the parse of both halves and index the parse of the second
< 1697821792 166095 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :half using the final state from the parses of the first half. does that make sense?
< 1697821825 957610 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that isn't what I was planning, but I think it might work?
< 1697821845 837786 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm honestly not sure, I don't understand GPUs
< 1697821855 615489 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the problem is that doing it that way seems to imply a finite state machine rather than a PDA
< 1697821902 429581 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was thinking of a LL parser. you will have to read the lookahead tokens right after the infixes, but that shouldn't be a problem.
< 1697821919 373984 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:5db3:4a43:ec04:d365 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1697821926 746364 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, but you also have to save the stacks in each of the parses, and those will be large for LL or LR
< 1697821931 404242 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so yes, this won't work well
< 1697821988 543637 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the PEG approach is basically to record, for each position in the input and each nonterminal, "could that nonterminal start here, and if so, where does it finish?"
< 1697822015 639145 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(PEGs are limited so that there can't be two different ways to parse the same nonterminal starting from the same position)
< 1697822033 858392 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am not sure how well that would map to GPUs, it depends a lot on the order in which you scan the various nonterminals
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< 1697827383 191768 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: fwiw, considering he idea of parallelizing PEG parsing reminds me of "chart parsing" algorithms (of which Nearly and CYK are examples) where the dynamic programming is also there to handle the nondeterminism, and can find all parses.
< 1697827421 743107 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :*Earley
< 1697827444 764234 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe I'll look into parallel parsing after my current attempt
< 1697827482 90308 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one nice thing about a branchless parser is that you could write it with SIMD instructions and do several unrelated parses simultaneously on the same core – I'm not sure how much throughput that would gain, memory bandwidth might be a bottleneck
< 1697827491 653064 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Chart parsing is vaguely cool imo, and if it can find all parses, it seems like almost like a waste to apply it to PEG :)
< 1697827526 243064 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't like PEG anyway :-)
< 1697827553 440001 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but then, I don't like ambiguous grammars either (at least for parsing purposes; they're more interesting if viewed as an esolang)
< 1697827748 80696 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Aye, you might remember a while ago I said I prefered parsing tools that were "more solidly theory-based" than yacc; and PEG does not count as "solidly theory-based" for me.
< 1697827825 470862 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am positive that the correct front-end approach is something that desugars to a true context-free grammar – no yacc-like weird precedence overrides, no PEG-like arbitrary disallowing of certain parses
< 1697827846 803927 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(OK, it technically isn't arbitrary in PEG because their alternation-like operator is well defined, its semantics just aren't what you'd typically want)
< 1697827864 176114 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, that the correct front-end approach adds sugar for things like precedence, which desugars into a true CFG very simply
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> 1697832201 982893 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:None114]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118135&oldid=116873 5* 03TheBigH 5* (+361) 10
< 1697832286 465535 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
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< 1697850032 961263 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
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> 1697851619 283489 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03TheBigH 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:2bits1bytequines.png10]]"
> 1697851663 179026 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:2 Bits, 1 Byte14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118137&oldid=118082 5* 03TheBigH 5* (+88) 10Added every quine.
< 1697854820 267564 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :If making a terminal emulator, how many bytes per character cell are needed? (My guess at this time is 1 byte for ASCII character code, 4 bytes for TRON character code, 1 byte for colours, and 2 bytes for attributes. (Pictures (e.g. sixel) can be stored separately.) However, I am not sure how many attributes are needed, and I also am not sure if it should need a different data structure entirely.)
< 1697855801 867791 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :attributes might need more than two bytes, even if you're doing only 8 colors – there are a lot of possible attributes (dim/normal/bold, no/single/double underscore, italic, blink, reverse, fgcolor, bgcolor)
< 1697855825 56955 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but there are codes for 24-bit color in common use
< 1697855871 587918 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also bear in mind that not all characters take up a single character cell, for example CJK characters normally take up two adjacent cells
< 1697855899 272530 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…and if you support combining characters, there might be multiple characters in the same cell
< 1697855976 338321 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the other thing I'd advise is that there's a standard for terminal codes which specifies (among other things) how to lex and parse them – this is useful to know where an unknown code ends
< 1697856033 757288 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's here: https://www.ecma-international.org/wp-content/uploads/ECMA-48_5th_edition_june_1991.pdf
< 1697856090 297906 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although it's hard to read, because the character codes are written in decimal-coded hexadecimal (e.g. "A", which has code 41 in hexadecimal, is written as "04/01")
> 1697856133 394527 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:2 Bits, 1 Byte14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118138&oldid=118137 5* 03TheBigH 5* (+85) 10
< 1697856895 940709 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know that some characters might take up multiple cells (either because of the character code or because it is in double width mode), so that would be some of the attribute bits too. I would have no intention to support combining characters though.
< 1697857260 960654 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the 75th and 76th pages of my link, numbered "61" and "62", have a list of the standard attributes (although most terminal editors don't support all of them)
< 1697857313 937321 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and 38/48, which define colors more precisely than the other color codes, are widely implemented but terminal emulators don't fully agree on the details
< 1697857316 455449 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also I think some new escape codes might be useful to be defined, such as a "universal escape" code which is recognized even in the middle of other codes (this might be useful for security purposes and possibly others). Escape codes might also be needed for some other character encodings.
< 1697857342 82854 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is a separate standard for character encodings
< 1697857366 350185 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that lists how they are specified to a terminal
< 1697857376 300768 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, it predates Unicode really catching on
< 1697857493 539608 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I have seen some other specifications somewhere for selecting the PC character encoding and selecting Commodore character encoding, although I am not sure if they are true ANSI or ISO, and may be only used with BBS. I should also want to add a escape code to select TRON-8 encoding (which requires 7-bit controls). (EUC-TRON can use the same code as EUC-JP, but also requires 7-bit controls to be selected to use EUC-TRON.)
< 1697857531 474153 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(And then, I think there is also the "doorway mode")
< 1697857657 203991 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :About the attributes, probably not all of them are needed, although I specified using a separate byte for colours than the other attributes. Some attributes are probably mutually exclusive so do not need as many bits.
< 1697857809 697411 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, and many of the SGR codes are to turn off specific attributes rather than turn them on
< 1697857863 226113 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, I know that, too.
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< 1697859379 353411 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :What are the proper escape codes to select EUC encodings, anyways? Also, which "designate other coding system with standard return" codes are defined and which are not defined?
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> 1697878503 456093 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Susam 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:CFR-demo-0.png10]]": Demo no. 3 from the reference implementation of CFR[]
> 1697879781 976061 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CFR14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118149&oldid=118124 5* 03Susam 5* (+444) 10Add screenshots of two CFR[] examples
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> 1697888201 98709 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118153&oldid=118115 5* 03WebStacks 5* (+271) 10/* Introductions */
> 1697888209 889619 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WebStacks14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118154 5* 03WebStacks 5* (+31) 10Created page with "I'm WebStacks - A Web Developer"
> 1697889174 693602 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Lilchiky 5*  10moved [[02User:Lilchiky10]] to [[Lilchiky]]: my account, my rules
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> 1697890326 873799 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lilchiky14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118159&oldid=118155 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (-542) 10a new and improved content box
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> 1697893016 381581 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lilchiky14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118170&oldid=118169 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+19) 10INDENTSSS
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> 1697894464 578657 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Imperator14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118172 5* 03Jaip 5* (+602) 10Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Imperator |paradigms=imperative |author=[[user:Jaip|Jaip]] |year=[[:Category:2023|2023]] |typesys= |memsys= |dimensions= |class=[[:Category:Turing complete|Turing complete]] |majorimpl=[https://github.com/Jaip-Coding/Imperator Original] |dialects=
> 1697894523 550919 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Imperator14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118173&oldid=118172 5* 03Jaip 5* (+21) 10
> 1697899615 558391 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move_redir10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10moved [[02Lilchiky10]] to [[User:Lilchiky]] over redirect: userpages should be in userspace  pages in the mainspace aren't owned by any user and thus can't be sensibly used as userpages
> 1697899615 676973 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move_redir10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10moved [[02Talk:Lilchiky10]] to [[User talk:Lilchiky]] over redirect: userpages should be in userspace  pages in the mainspace aren't owned by any user and thus can't be sensibly used as userpages
> 1697899615 686230 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete_redir10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10Ais523 deleted redirect [[02User:Lilchiky10]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[Lilchiky]]"
> 1697899615 695162 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete_redir10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10Ais523 deleted redirect [[02User talk:Lilchiky10]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[Talk:Lilchiky]]"
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> 1697904321 142428 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118180&oldid=118176 5* 03Zaydiscool777 5* (+222) 10add here my name
> 1697904356 634523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Zaydiscool77714]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118181 5* 03Zaydiscool777 5* (+26) 10me
> 1697904388 126065 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Zaydiscool77714]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118182 5* 03Zaydiscool777 5* (+8) 10blaed my talk
> 1697904755 453614 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dosctrign14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118183 5* 03Zaydiscool777 5* (+243) 10made a page for dosc
< 1697905365 654302 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Spent a good chunk of time today writing an AST transformation to turn loops into recursive procedures, yet it doesn't seem to have solved my backtracking problem.  I now think the problem isn't where I thought it was, so all that was for nought.
> 1697905519 293838 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dosctrign14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118184&oldid=118183 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+64) 10Stub, categories
> 1697905626 547676 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FireStarter14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118185&oldid=95405 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+22) 10Category
> 1697905723 223081 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ATZ14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118186&oldid=46005 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+80) 10Categories
< 1697905771 688698 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1697905824 451014 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
> 1697906646 563786 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Imperator14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118187&oldid=118178 5* 03Jaip 5* (+4341) 10Added Syntax
> 1697906656 718498 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Oak14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118188 5* 03JorbDehmel 5* (+12448) 10Initial description of the Oak programming language
> 1697906670 477414 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Imperator14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118189&oldid=118187 5* 03Jaip 5* (-21) 10/* PAGE IN WORK! */
< 1697906777 92784 :Everything!~Everythin@static.208.206.21.65.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1697906783 624492 :Everything!~Everythin@static.208.206.21.65.clients.your-server.de JOIN #esolangs * :Everything
> 1697906811 808185 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118190&oldid=118122 5* 03JorbDehmel 5* (+10) 10Added the Oak language, and nothing else
> 1697906854 167629 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Oak14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118191&oldid=118188 5* 03JorbDehmel 5* (-14) 10Attempt to fix capitalization error
> 1697906855 484922 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Imperator14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118192&oldid=118189 5* 03Jaip 5* (+150) 10
> 1697906980 311105 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Imperator14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118193&oldid=118192 5* 03Jaip 5* (+537) 10/* Examples */
> 1697907055 327975 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Jordan Dehmel14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118194 5* 03JorbDehmel 5* (+111) 10Created redirect page
< 1697907134 129939 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
> 1697907171 555481 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Imperator14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118195&oldid=118193 5* 03Jaip 5* (+1130) 10/* Examples */
> 1697907319 482023 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Oak14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118196&oldid=118191 5* 03JorbDehmel 5* (-2) 10Grammar
> 1697907383 93351 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Imperator14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118197&oldid=118195 5* 03Jaip 5* (+548) 10/* Examples */
> 1697907559 890626 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Jaip14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118198&oldid=117963 5* 03Jaip 5* (+50) 10
> 1697907631 931529 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118199&oldid=118190 5* 03Jaip 5* (+16) 10/* I */
< 1697908069 982882 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1697908102 248169 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Imperator14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118200&oldid=118197 5* 03Jaip 5* (+151) 10/* Examples */
> 1697908158 635145 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Imperator14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118201&oldid=118200 5* 03Jaip 5* (+0) 10/* Truth-Machine */
< 1697909060 943088 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1697909972 589086 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dosctrign14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118202&oldid=118184 5* 03Zaydiscool777 5* (+133) 10a
< 1697911328 603739 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1697912759 519099 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's something to do with "choice point scope" being only a single production due to the way the engine traverses the AST.  To get around that I'd need to... convert productions to CPS?  This is slightly weird.  Would it be equivalent to compiling the grammar to a PDA?
< 1697913199 836533 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-10-146-234.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1697913832 444194 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1697914130 834337 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-21-194-169.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1697915279 178376 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1697916028 752953 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5u6BN1p0Uo8 Physics for Birds examines if they can do computations in Tears of the Kingdom 
< 1697916107 114060 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1697918014 515184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Imperator14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118203&oldid=118201 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+73) 10Categories
> 1697918055 809748 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Jordan Dehmel14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118204&oldid=118194 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+30) 10Stub, category
> 1697918238 525158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Oak14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118205&oldid=118196 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+97) 10/* Sources */ Categories
> 1697918475 364898 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07C++14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118206&oldid=115872 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+115) 10See also, categories, misc.
> 1697918637 615355 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:Serious14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118207&oldid=67550 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+1) 10Indent
< 1697918698 202744 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1697921768 113798 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Quit: gone too far
< 1697922890 337550 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1697924503 844401 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is there a way for a terminal emulator to cancel responses that it has already sent but not yet read by a different process than the one that requested the data?
> 1697924947 617194 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Project Euler/1214]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118208&oldid=116968 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+93) 10Stub, external resources, category
< 1697925375 789351 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving
> 1697925565 792754 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Braintwist14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118209&oldid=12933 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+29) 10/* External resources */ Wayback
< 1697925604 386675 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-21-194-169.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1697925974 749353 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dosctrign14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118210&oldid=118202 5* 03Zaydiscool777 5* (+1079) 10added table
> 1697926147 414431 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dosctrign14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118211&oldid=118210 5* 03Zaydiscool777 5* (-294) 10fixed table
> 1697930859 726796 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dosctrign14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118212&oldid=118211 5* 03Zaydiscool777 5* (+22) 10moar
< 1697933144 401996 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1697933414 847892 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Client Quit
< 1697936302 485166 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1697936412 409456 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1697949579 312971 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Will tcflush work?
< 1697949721 462944 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Will packet mode help at all? Would signals be of any use?
> 1697953070 255185 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07HolyPy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118213&oldid=118056 5* 03Alx 5* (+2235) 10
> 1697953292 502023 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07HolyPy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118214&oldid=118213 5* 03Alx 5* (+274) 10/* 3. HPYVM Notes */
> 1697953355 858434 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07HolyPy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118215&oldid=118214 5* 03Alx 5* (+103) 10/* 3. HPYVM Notes */
< 1697960872 826262 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-12-88.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1697961242 672752 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1697966424 66570 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie
< 1697966644 73257 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1697967817 247875 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1697970860 891940 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1697971702 440765 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1697972468 901220 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1697975397 488178 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie
< 1697976343 930076 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
< 1697977605 272444 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
< 1697979140 744874 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Quit: Go back to your cringe 9 to 5. I'll be gaming.
< 1697980784 745069 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1697981084 122423 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1697981693 561161 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118216&oldid=118135 5* 03None1 5* (+83) 10/* A message to you */  OK
> 1697982100 152065 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dosctrign14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118217&oldid=118212 5* 03Zaydiscool777 5* (+1290) 10yes
> 1697982457 946778 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dosctrign14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118218&oldid=118217 5* 03Zaydiscool777 5* (+212) 10added humor
> 1697983125 637851 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Odasjoi14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118219 5* 03None1 5* (+762) 10Created page with "'''Odasjoi''' (say "ow-das-joy") is an esolang invented by [[User:None1]]. Its name is chosen by smashing random keys, its commands are, too. ==Commands== Commands must be separated by ''line feeds'' <pre> fowdif Increase the accumulator wekeww Decrease the accumulator woi
> 1697983143 108797 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Odasjoi14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118220&oldid=118219 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10
> 1697983171 880643 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118221&oldid=118012 5* 03None1 5* (+66) 10/* Obfuscated */
> 1697983192 205568 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Odasjoi14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118222&oldid=118220 5* 03None1 5* (+8) 10/* {{User|XKCD Random Number}} */
> 1697983222 691194 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:XKCD Random Number14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118223&oldid=117772 5* 03None1 5* (+59) 10/* Multiplicity */
> 1697983253 511484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118224&oldid=118199 5* 03None1 5* (+14) 10/* O */
> 1697983296 806572 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118225&oldid=118132 5* 03None1 5* (+91) 10/* My Esolangs */
> 1697983429 280439 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Odasjoi14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118226&oldid=118222 5* 03None1 5* (+26) 10
> 1697983431 987830 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dosctrign14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118227&oldid=118218 5* 03Zaydiscool777 5* (+294) 10infobox
< 1697983525 214016 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-12-88.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :For anyone interested, this is the grammar formalism I've been talking about: https://codeberg.org/catseye/Fountain
< 1697983525 714122 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-12-88.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :And this is what's going into the next release (backtracking, mainly): https://codeberg.org/catseye/Fountain/pulls/1/files
> 1697983554 620745 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Odasjoi14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118228&oldid=118226 5* 03None1 5* (+32) 10/* Examples */
> 1697983707 80573 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dosctrign14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118229&oldid=118227 5* 03Zaydiscool777 5* (-2) 10tried to add code
> 1697983738 822615 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dosctrign14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118230&oldid=118229 5* 03Zaydiscool777 5* (+3) 10oops
< 1697984235 628832 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1697984267 723601 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1697984320 101160 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1697985578 575600 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bawkbawk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118231&oldid=118104 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+2) 10/* ^ (flyoverthehouse) */ +2
> 1697985904 215469 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118232&oldid=118076 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+1326) 10/* Other Stuff */ box
< 1697985935 844182 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-12-88.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1697986676 841483 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-12-88.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1697988025 916892 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1697989167 840599 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-2-102-12-88.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1697989233 840906 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-21-192-30.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1697989528 454440 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1697992921 451664 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1697993275 273461 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
> 1697994108 974159 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dosctrign14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118233&oldid=118230 5* 03Zaydiscool777 5* (+1792) 10added flow
< 1697995538 299792 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1697996375 58603 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1697998168 913407 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Would non-Unicode support be possible?
< 1697998325 657061 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, would it be possible to parse strings that are prefixed by their length? (I don't know if that counts as "context-sensitive language", actually, since I have not checked the definition)
< 1697999238 713178 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie
< 1698000789 738898 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-21-192-30.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't plan on supporting anything other than ASCII in it for the moment.
< 1698000790 239364 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-21-192-30.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :It should be possible (or close to possible).  to parse strings prefixed by their length.  You'd need to parse the digits to obtain a numeric value and store that in a context variable.  Then decrement that variable each time you parse a character, and stop parsing when it's zero.
< 1698000838 703521 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-21-192-30.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I should maybe work that out and add it as an example grammar.
< 1698001185 321185 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :It was my guess to do something like that.
< 1698002161 88966 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1698002994 500521 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1698004433 270915 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1698005633 588829 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Quit: gone too far
< 1698006159 836196 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-21-192-30.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
> 1698008728 333280 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CLC-INTERCAL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118234&oldid=108177 5* 03Uilebheist 5* (+2005) 10New section "New features for a 25th anniversary edition"
< 1698009571 517101 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1698009622 71936 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CLC-INTERCAL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118235&oldid=118234 5* 03Uilebheist 5* (+2107) 10/* New features for a 25th anniversary edition */ another new statement
> 1698009682 815505 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CLC-INTERCAL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118236&oldid=118235 5* 03Uilebheist 5* (+4) 10/* Trickle down */ statement was listed in the wrong place
< 1698011706 429500 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1698011842 465850 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1698013122 407582 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1698013904 303961 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1698015321 291098 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Minsky machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118237&oldid=116401 5* 03None1 5* (+135) 10/* Question */ new section
< 1698016800 664497 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in
< 1698016819 90692 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1698017117 45204 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1698017134 124147 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
> 1698019036 372222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dosctrign14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118238&oldid=118233 5* 03Zaydiscool777 5* (-10) 10code tag
> 1698019533 275423 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dosctrign14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118239&oldid=118238 5* 03Zaydiscool777 5* (+1) 10added /n
> 1698019565 192448 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dosctrign14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118240&oldid=118239 5* 03Zaydiscool777 5* (+0) 10idk
< 1698021770 397618 :Wryl-o-the-wisp!sid553797@user/wryl QUIT :
< 1698022759 390922 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1698022812 164838 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1698024567 49987 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wise14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118241&oldid=113225 5* 03DivergentClouds 5* (-16) 10fixed error in shift operator description
< 1698028081 19023 :Wryl-o-the-wisp!sid553797@user/wryl JOIN #esolangs Wryl :Wryl
> 1698030446 771053 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Minsky machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118242&oldid=118237 5* 03Ais523 5* (+736) 10/* Question */ r to None1
> 1698034636 783675 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fun Video Game14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118243&oldid=112305 5* 03Quito0567 5* (-4) 10
< 1698036687 259654 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1698036936 363366 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :b_jonas
< 1698037926 188065 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1698038550 717913 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dosctrign14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118244&oldid=118240 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-9) 10/* Flow */ Use pre tag
> 1698038873 759960 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esoteric Topics in Computer Programming14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118245&oldid=108739 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+9) 10Stub
> 1698039134 890660 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cornflower (PCD)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118246&oldid=91255 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+26) 10Category
> 1698039199 107192 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Surreal Numbers14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118247&oldid=58024 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+23) 10Category
< 1698039516 434991 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1698040920 467272 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1698043188 960997 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1698044460 43557 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1698045399 227713 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1698045532 891671 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1698048517 441879 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1698048561 648735 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1698049266 839057 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-21-192-30.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1698054616 457331 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1698054922 829169 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
< 1698055467 271762 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
> 1698058033 622704 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Minsky machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118248&oldid=118242 5* 03None1 5* (+87) 10/* Question */
< 1698058445 104388 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-21-192-30.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1698059214 81602 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118249&oldid=118004 5* 03None1 5* (+127) 10
> 1698059343 69068 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118250&oldid=118249 5* 03None1 5* (+156) 10
> 1698059360 855080 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118251&oldid=118250 5* 03None1 5* (+1) 10
> 1698059571 89221 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118252&oldid=118251 5* 03None1 5* (+316) 10/* Commands */
> 1698059639 447201 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118253&oldid=118252 5* 03None1 5* (+4) 10/* Commands */  Escape vertical bar
> 1698059651 935957 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118254&oldid=118253 5* 03None1 5* (+1) 10/* Commands */
> 1698059771 487247 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118255&oldid=118254 5* 03None1 5* (+118) 10/* Commands */
> 1698059846 144714 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118256&oldid=118255 5* 03None1 5* (-690) 10
> 1698059912 469604 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Directional14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118257 5* 03None1 5* (+725) 10Created page with "'''Directional''' is an esolang invented by [[User:None1]] and inspired by [[TinyBF]], it is actually a 2D version of TinyBF. ==Data Storage== A tape and a pointer is used to execute the TinyBF commands. ==Commands== {| class="wikitable" ! Command !! Meaning |- |  || S
> 1698059965 897724 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Directional14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118258&oldid=118257 5* 03None1 5* (+56) 10
> 1698059975 644990 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Directional14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118259&oldid=118258 5* 03None1 5* (-1) 10/* Increament current cell */
> 1698060049 181321 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118260&oldid=118224 5* 03None1 5* (+18) 10/* D */
> 1698060128 451180 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118261&oldid=118225 5* 03None1 5* (+74) 10/* My Esolangs */
> 1698060171 387261 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Directional14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118262&oldid=118259 5* 03None1 5* (+59) 10/* Example programs */
> 1698060204 355302 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Directional14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118263&oldid=118262 5* 03None1 5* (+29) 10
> 1698060318 318432 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Directional14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118264&oldid=118263 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* Increment current cell */
> 1698062133 26452 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118265&oldid=81065 5* 03None1 5* (+48) 10/* Implementations */
> 1698062188 160859 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118266&oldid=118261 5* 03None1 5* (+31) 10/* My Implementations */
> 1698062228 731716 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118267&oldid=118265 5* 03None1 5* (+25) 10
> 1698062258 800418 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118268&oldid=118266 5* 03None1 5* (+13) 10/* My Implementations */
> 1698062312 15947 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118269&oldid=118267 5* 03None1 5* (+24) 10/* Implementations */
> 1698062336 559040 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118270&oldid=118268 5* 03None1 5* (+14) 10/* My Implementations */
> 1698062395 676222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dosctrign14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118271&oldid=118244 5* 03Zaydiscool777 5* (+679) 10more pre & more minor & more commands
< 1698062398 636093 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1698062438 114954 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07=14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118272&oldid=65116 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10
< 1698062451 672918 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu JOIN #esolangs int-e :Bertram
< 1698062625 382050 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1698062719 661427 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot JOIN #esolangs lambdabot :Lambda_Robots:_100%_Loyal
> 1698064270 281758 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:XKCD Random Number14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118273&oldid=118223 5* 03None1 5* (+20) 10/* 8xn */
> 1698064347 786435 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07=14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118274&oldid=118272 5* 03None1 5* (+73) 10
> 1698064363 134758 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07=14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118275&oldid=118274 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* Examples */
< 1698064691 642865 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1698064719 397625 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:XKCD Random Number14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118276&oldid=118273 5* 03None1 5* (+175) 10/* Braincopter */
> 1698066303 82422 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07=14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118277&oldid=118275 5* 03None1 5* (+958) 10Added Python interpreter and implemented category tag
> 1698066318 447302 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07=14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118278&oldid=118277 5* 03None1 5* (+25) 10
< 1698066418 278351 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
> 1698066457 148986 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118279&oldid=118270 5* 03None1 5* (+21) 10/* My Implementations */
< 1698066457 346624 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1698066502 970979 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
> 1698068072 464298 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118280&oldid=118232 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+358) 10/* The ultimate content box */ more recursion
< 1698070076 837338 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-21-192-30.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1698070517 795918 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-21-192-30.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1698071976 836308 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-21-192-30.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1698075331 554843 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1698075473 272486 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
> 1698075814 55733 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ie14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118281&oldid=108736 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+157) 10Categories
< 1698075859 109136 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
> 1698077937 195628 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:TheBigH14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118282&oldid=105143 5* 03TheBigH 5* (+96) 10Added truth machine for ??? (not the esolang)
< 1698078603 584380 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1698078807 115988 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1698078913 295313 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1698082244 122950 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1698082955 887565 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[072 Bits, 1 Byte14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118283&oldid=118103 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+5036) 10Add interpreter; add all possible examples
< 1698084365 322021 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie
> 1698086335 49492 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:3 Bits, 3 Bytes14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118284 5* 03TheBigH 5* (+207) 10Created page with "=Truth machine?= I don't think a truth machine is possible in this language because of the limited amount of instructions. --~~~~"
< 1698089915 899249 :craigo_!~craigo@2403:5815:da48:0:a1aa:83b:a8a5:bab4 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1698090172 841091 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1698091989 539598 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Quit: gone too far
> 1698092271 936044 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfunc14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118285&oldid=78545 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+264) 10Add examples, update link to interpreter, misc.
> 1698092453 951438 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfunc14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118286&oldid=118285 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+19) 10/* Commands */ fi
< 1698092454 874801 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1698093687 775720 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dosctrign14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118287&oldid=118271 5* 03Zaydiscool777 5* (+85) 10command part of table finished
> 1698093768 298604 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cubed14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118288&oldid=110942 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+136) 10Infobox, categories
> 1698093817 669062 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lbj14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118289&oldid=110005 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+0) 10Category
> 1698093865 4577 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07390014]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118290&oldid=110097 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-6) 10Stub, WIP, categories
> 1698093909 409587 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0710D Deadfish 7 with Time Travel and a Multiverse14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118291&oldid=110041 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+12) 10Category
> 1698094015 307806 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Munching Squares.pushem14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118292&oldid=35104 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+30) 10Category
< 1698095359 194181 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1698095762 838090 :example99!~example99@2800:810:496:9a32::1000 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] example99
< 1698095832 840119 :example99-alt!~example99@2800:810:496:9a32::1000 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] example99-alt
< 1698095861 116148 :example99!~example99@2800:810:496:9a32::1000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :whatever.
< 1698096018 368651 :example99!~example99@2800:810:496:9a32::1000 PART :#esolangs
< 1698096128 189500 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1698096175 64698 :example99-alt!~example99@2800:810:496:9a32::1000 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1698096391 836142 :example99!~example99@2800:810:496:9a32::1000 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] example99
< 1698096396 427781 :example99!~example99@2800:810:496:9a32::1000 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1698098376 685706 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-21-192-30.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1698099252 441633 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1698101155 281727 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:3 Bits, 3 Bytes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118293&oldid=118284 5* 03None1 5* (+94) 10
< 1698103070 836814 :example99!~example99@2800:810:496:9a32::1000 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] example99
> 1698103727 156002 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[074 bits, 8 bytes14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118294 5* 03TheBigH 5* (+3175) 10Page created.
> 1698103970 807566 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118295&oldid=118130 5* 03TheBigH 5* (+61) 10Added 4 bits, 8 bytes.
> 1698104006 927830 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118296&oldid=118295 5* 03TheBigH 5* (+0) 10Fixed capitalization error.
< 1698104591 834959 :example99!~example99@2800:810:496:9a32::1000 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
> 1698105111 97110 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[072 Bits, 1 Byte14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118297&oldid=118283 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+414) 10/* Example codes */ limited IO truth-machine
< 1698106508 876974 :craigo_!~craigo@2403:5815:da48:0:a1aa:83b:a8a5:bab4 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
> 1698107431 411257 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:3 Bits, 3 Bytes14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118298&oldid=118293 5* 03TheBigH 5* (+263) 10More on possible truth machine
< 1698109054 320015 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in
< 1698109084 398558 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1698109260 516359 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1698109269 892354 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Client Quit
< 1698109287 146422 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
> 1698109307 623708 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Lungecrunch 5*  10New user account
< 1698109344 995712 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1698109478 770860 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
> 1698109549 543072 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118299&oldid=118180 5* 03Lungecrunch 5* (+269) 10
< 1698110091 269262 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/inst/ag-ki/rojas_home/documents/1997/Universal_Computer.pdf
< 1698110179 498260 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :That describes how to make Zuse's Z3 into a bounded universal turing machine
< 1698110190 6603 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :But " The Z3 is therefore not a universal computer in the sense of Turing." by the same author in https://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/Zuse_Z1_and_Z3.pdf
> 1698112055 797414 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Lungecrunch/Q+9H test14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118300 5* 03Lungecrunch 5* (+1772) 10Created page with "'''Q+9H''' is a derivative of [[HQ9+]] created by [[User:Lungecrunch]]. All of the instructions are completely randomized, meaning that you will get a different result each time you run a program. For example, + may either output "Hello, world!", 
> 1698112141 887781 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Lungecrunch14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118301 5* 03Lungecrunch 5* (+32) 10Created page with "stuff  [[user:Lungecrunch/Q+9H]]"
> 1698112156 146296 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Lungecrunch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118302&oldid=118301 5* 03Lungecrunch 5* (+5) 10
< 1698114889 359039 :GregorR8!~GregorR@71.19.155.102 JOIN #esolangs GregorR :Gregor Richards
< 1698114980 444258 :GregorR!~GregorR@71.19.155.102 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1698114980 661744 :GregorR8!~GregorR@71.19.155.102 NICK :GregorR
> 1698115537 425662 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Quito056714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118303&oldid=114681 5* 03Quito0567 5* (+8) 10
> 1698115606 964168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Quito056714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118304&oldid=118303 5* 03Quito0567 5* (+46) 10
> 1698117502 926395 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118305&oldid=110161 5* 03Zzo38 5* (+1957) 10
< 1698118185 98091 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1698119456 879661 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1698120637 884142 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1698120638 936407 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[074 bits, 8 bytes14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118306&oldid=118294 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+58) 10Categories
< 1698120693 128566 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1698120868 945628 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1698120968 416341 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1698121634 169413 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1698121658 58011 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1698122355 640312 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1698122384 908371 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1698129604 276865 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1698134223 839831 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-21-192-30.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1698135782 836297 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1698137366 650107 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1698137771 204654 :example99!~example99@2800:810:496:9a32::1000 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] example99
< 1698137788 210324 :example99!~example99@2800:810:496:9a32::1000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cAlE
< 1698137797 604339 :example99!~example99@2800:810:496:9a32::1000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :apic
< 1698137813 454058 :example99!~example99@2800:810:496:9a32::1000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cat_s
< 1698137819 978279 :example99!~example99@2800:810:496:9a32::1000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :^[
< 1698137824 824411 :example99!~example99@2800:810:496:9a32::1000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :^[12345]
< 1698137828 172086 :example99!~example99@2800:810:496:9a32::1000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :^[ 12345]
< 1698138409 345250 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-21-192-30.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :?SYNTAX ERROR
< 1698138409 647514 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :Unknown command, try @list
< 1698138807 21715 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :example99: Just because a channel is quiet doesn't mean you need to fill that silence with random noise.
< 1698138846 429127 :example99!~example99@2800:810:496:9a32::1000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e:yes
< 1698138854 602808 :example99!~example99@2800:810:496:9a32::1000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: yes
< 1698138880 596411 :example99!~example99@2800:810:496:9a32::1000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry the 1st ine was'nt color-coded
< 1698139479 388317 :example99!~example99@2800:810:496:9a32::1000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :excuse me my internet i a little floppy#
< 1698139511 231335 :example99!~example99@2800:810:496:9a32::1000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :CORRECTION:excuse me my internet is a bit floppy
> 1698142118 623904 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[074 bits, 8 bytes14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118307&oldid=118306 5* 03TheBigH 5* (+180) 10New program
< 1698142148 107605 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.149.238.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1698142287 836769 :example99!~example99@2800:810:496:9a32::1000 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1698142380 568033 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1698142789 831416 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
> 1698144399 806636 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:3 Bits, 3 Bytes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118308&oldid=118298 5* 03None1 5* (+121) 10
> 1698145638 295979 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:3 Bits, 3 Bytes14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118309&oldid=118308 5* 03TheBigH 5* (+225) 10More on possible truth machine
> 1698146180 409395 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:3 Bits, 3 Bytes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118310&oldid=118309 5* 03None1 5* (+211) 10
> 1698146419 475209 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[073 Bits, 3 Bytes14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118311&oldid=118133 5* 03None1 5* (+28) 10
> 1698146980 352849 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[073 Bits, 3 Bytes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118312&oldid=118311 5* 03None1 5* (+114) 10Added quine
> 1698146997 354365 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[073 Bits, 3 Bytes14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118313&oldid=118312 5* 03None1 5* (+1) 10/* Quine */
> 1698148138 282261 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Obfuscated14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118314&oldid=115528 5* 03None1 5* (+372) 10/* Request for a JavaScript interpreter */ new section
> 1698149105 382036 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Lungecrunch/Q+9H test14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118315&oldid=118300 5* 03None1 5* (+25) 10
> 1698152558 431950 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118316&oldid=117866 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+151) 10a new command
> 1698152786 35283 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07H14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118317&oldid=85477 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+15) 10Lowercasing the title
> 1698153157 38840 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BFInfinity14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118318&oldid=117590 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+144) 10/* Commands */ 
> 1698153243 560672 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BFInfinity14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118319&oldid=118318 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+78) 10forgot the author
> 1698153678 612650 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BFInfinity14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118320&oldid=118319 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+144) 10/* Commands */  and 
> 1698154110 132431 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BFInfinity14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118321&oldid=118320 5* 03Lilchiky 5* (+69) 10/* Examples */
< 1698155923 887064 :example99!~example99@2800:810:496:844a::1001 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] example99
< 1698156027 629663 :example99!~example99@2800:810:496:844a::1001 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1698156058 840510 :example99!~example99@2800:810:496:844a::1001 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] example99
< 1698156060 843022 :example99!~example99@2800:810:496:844a::1001 QUIT :Client Quit
> 1698156762 142892 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:4 bits, 8 bytes14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118322 5* 03TheBigH 5* (+152) 10Created page.
> 1698156863 200435 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[074 bits, 8 bytes14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118323&oldid=118307 5* 03TheBigH 5* (+0) 10Fixed an error.
> 1698157618 156874 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[074 bits, 8 bytes14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118324&oldid=118323 5* 03TheBigH 5* (+1) 10Fixed another small mistake.
< 1698158931 722794 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1698159320 964827 :craigo_!~craigo@2403:5815:da48:0:a1aa:83b:a8a5:bab4 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1698159946 480991 :craigo_!~craigo@2403:5815:da48:0:a1aa:83b:a8a5:bab4 QUIT :Quit: Leaving
> 1698159991 380263 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[074 bits, 8 bytes14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118325&oldid=118324 5* 03TheBigH 5* (+0) 10Fixing a minor mistake #3
< 1698160253 146621 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1698161429 274585 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
> 1698161498 899023 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NewFuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118326&oldid=96882 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+92) 10Stub, categories
> 1698162404 188921 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Redivider/Brainfuck Interpreter14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118327&oldid=12709 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+34) 10Link, category
> 1698162467 2377 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Impossible.14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118328&oldid=92049 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+9) 10Stub
> 1698164257 939779 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wise14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118329&oldid=118241 5* 03DivergentClouds 5* (+298) 10added digit count operator
> 1698164870 174354 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wise14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118330&oldid=118329 5* 03DivergentClouds 5* (+53) 10added implementation :D
< 1698165096 964879 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1698165508 678606 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[074 bits, 8 bytes14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118331&oldid=118325 5* 03TheBigH 5* (+48) 10More information on quines.
< 1698169128 98452 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1698172853 530918 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1698172871 590415 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CDILOI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118332&oldid=109476 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+208) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the CDILOI programming language on GitHub and supplemented two category tags.
> 1698173048 599980 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CDILOI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118333&oldid=118332 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+277) 10Completed the unary counter example, the same suffered from the destitution of an output command, and added a truth-machine program.
> 1698173293 41485 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CDILOI14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118334&oldid=118333 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+113) 10Rectified the orthography.
< 1698173863 558034 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1698174680 284414 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1698175901 892585 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.149.238.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Quit: gone too far
< 1698177298 389199 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1698178071 162008 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1698178121 267206 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-92-21-192-30.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1698178433 24291 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CFRS14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118335 5* 03Susam 5* (+2057) 10Create page for CFRS[]
> 1698178564 97739 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CFR14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118336&oldid=118152 5* 03Susam 5* (+423) 10Mention CFRS[]
< 1698179097 498014 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1698179826 643777 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1698179892 567998 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1698179916 880733 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1698180014 955940 :sprout_!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-7c82-aea-f2ae-942.fixed6.kpn.net JOIN #esolangs * :sprout
< 1698180204 514792 :sprout!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-a518-4d18-54ef-95d2.fixed6.kpn.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1698180706 766307 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1698182623 131731 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is there the version control with each files handling the versions of each files separately?
< 1698182669 37694 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: you mean like cvs?
< 1698182691 717851 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure I understand your question right
< 1698182777 79911 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :afaik cvs doesn't handle commits or tags of multiple files as an important concept, it stores the version history of each file separately, though you can check out a directory with each file as it was at a particular timestamp, or at a particular tag if the files have a version with that tag
< 1698182821 597460 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I don't really follow cvs these days, I think it's mostly abandonned because svn does all that cvs can do better, except for communicating with existing cvs clients of course
< 1698183043 37921 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know much about the working of cvs and svn, so maybe it is similar than what I meant
< 1698183340 308272 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1698183768 477446 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1698183810 668944 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :It look that RCS may be similar than what I meant.
> 1698183837 153312 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rhymolang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118337&oldid=109998 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+101) 10Categories
< 1698183845 617066 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :rcs is before my time so I know very little about it
> 1698183918 705604 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07VarStack14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118338&oldid=109809 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+25) 10Category
< 1698184932 484022 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1698185757 808097 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1698186463 825512 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving
> 1698188269 467452 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[074 bits, 8 bytes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118339&oldid=118331 5* 03TheBigH 5* (+149) 10There's an interpreter now
> 1698188792 389612 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[073 Bits, 3 Bytes14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118340&oldid=118313 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* Examples */  Fixed a very stupid mistake
< 1698188840 241902 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1698188981 971573 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1698190403 844683 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1698190503 896775 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1698195610 485487 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1698195687 864477 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1698195715 683343 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03TempTempai 5*  10New user account
> 1698195937 850751 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118341&oldid=118299 5* 03TempTempai 5* (+256) 10/* Introductions */
> 1698196074 932579 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118342&oldid=118260 5* 03TempTempai 5* (+13) 10/* A */
> 1698197175 70413 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[074 bits, 8 bytes14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118343&oldid=118339 5* 03TheBigH 5* (+72) 10New program
< 1698198247 318427 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
> 1698201719 22509 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AWA5.014]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118344 5* 03TempTempai 5* (+2847) 10Created the AWA5.0 page
> 1698205076 640259 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03WeCantRelate 5*  10New user account
< 1698205310 704229 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wrote a program to calculate probability distribution of dice and the stuff like that. Currently there is not implementation of two-dimensional probability distributions, which I might expect might be suitable if you want to calculate e.g. "4d6 drop lowest".
< 1698205462 860914 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org JOIN #esolangs leah2 :Leah Neukirchen
< 1698205475 340749 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net QUIT :Quit: m5zs7k
< 1698205620 156676 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net JOIN #esolangs m5zs7k :m5zs7k
> 1698206259 804179 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118345&oldid=118280 5* 03Esolanger12345 5* (+73) 10
> 1698206346 349320 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118346&oldid=118345 5* 03Esolanger12345 5* (+60) 10
> 1698206452 816832 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118347&oldid=118346 5* 03Esolanger12345 5* (+21) 10
< 1698206476 874627 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
> 1698206530 126284 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118348&oldid=118341 5* 03WeCantRelate 5* (+149) 10
> 1698206573 11432 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118349&oldid=118296 5* 03WeCantRelate 5* (+41) 10/* General languages */
> 1698206938 203613 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CFRS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118350&oldid=118335 5* 03Susam 5* (+5344) 10Add full description of the language
> 1698207104 969839 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CFR14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118351&oldid=118336 5* 03Susam 5* (-5393) 10Avoid duplication of content by pointing to CFRS[]
> 1698207178 729879 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CFRS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118352&oldid=118350 5* 03Susam 5* (+2) 10Fix language name in image captions
< 1698207315 13687 :sprout_!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-7c82-aea-f2ae-942.fixed6.kpn.net NICK :sprout
> 1698207347 62590 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07KYS14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118353 5* 03WeCantRelate 5* (+1372) 10made my esolang page yaaaaay
> 1698207419 534600 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WeCantRelate14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118354 5* 03WeCantRelate 5* (+2) 10Created page with "yo"
< 1698207703 883090 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(since, I would expect, you could use one dimension to keep track of which is the lowest number that has been rolled so far)
> 1698207779 650761 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AWA5.014]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118355&oldid=118344 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+71) 10Categories
> 1698207832 120632 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PartehTheEsolangDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118356&oldid=107276 5* 03WeCantRelate 5* (+4) 10
< 1698208253 799049 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :What kind of functions do you think would be good, in your opinion?
> 1698208427 560997 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07KYS14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118357&oldid=118353 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+196) 10Formatting, add categories
< 1698209500 376314 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: well if you know how to (efficiently and accurately) compute the CDF of a two-dimensional gaussian distribution whose two coefficients may be correlated, that would be interesting, because I'm not sure I've seen that anywhere
< 1698209748 440622 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, this program is meant for calculating discrete distributions, so I think that doesn't count. Furthermore, it is currently limited to finite discrete distributions, but allowing infinite discrete distributions (e.g. if you roll a 6 then you most roll again until it is not 6, and add them together) would not be out of scope of the intention of this software, I think.
< 1698209866 516998 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know about the CDF of multidimensional Gaussian distributions, and would not know how to be calculated, unfortunately.
< 1698209915 609697 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(My program also internally does all calculations with integer arithmetic, using floating point only for the final purpose of displaying the results.)
> 1698209926 126486 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[074 bits, 8 bytes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118358&oldid=118343 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+50) 10/* Quine */ a Quine
< 1698210608 29431 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :You can write dice such as "3d6+1" etc, or dice with your own numbers such as "4(-1,0,1)", or you can write "3d6.d20/h" to mean roll three six-sided dice and one twenty-sided dice, and the result is the total of the six-sided if that is higher than the twenty-sided, or the twenty-sided if that is higher. You can also write such things as "3(1,2,3,4,5,d6+5)".
< 1698213038 178341 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :You can see the program and documentation http://zzo38computer.org/diceprob/ so that you may make a suggestion based on its working, I suppose.
< 1698213726 693197 :SGautam!uid286066@id-286066.ilkley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs SGautam :Siddharth Gautam
< 1698217053 411913 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1698219645 962172 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1698219646 116778 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1698219970 853889 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1698220004 319228 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1698220461 175911 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.176 QUIT :Quit: leaving
> 1698222407 559510 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AGSPL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118359&oldid=116310 5* 03Xi-816 5* (-1) 10
> 1698222666 336495 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nope.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118360&oldid=118011 5* 03Xi-816 5* (+177) 10
> 1698222822 316581 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Qui14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118361 5* 03Xi-816 5* (+139) 10Created page with "{{stub}} Qui is the esolang made by [[User:Xi-816]]. It is stack-based, and transpiles to C.  Github Page: [[https://github.com/xi816/Qui]]"
< 1698222845 271440 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1698223576 689502 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
< 1698224678 904037 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1698225096 507608 :SGautam!uid286066@id-286066.ilkley.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1698226621 411930 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1698226977 204940 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Hanemile 5*  10New user account
> 1698227605 557726 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118362&oldid=118348 5* 03Hanemile 5* (+193) 10added myself
> 1698227610 220361 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mexico14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118363 5* 03Hanemile 5* (+8281) 10initial commit
< 1698227661 695070 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1698227715 503660 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
> 1698227727 33948 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mexico14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118364&oldid=118363 5* 03Hanemile 5* (+139) 10
> 1698230394 736411 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[074 bits, 8 bytes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118365&oldid=118358 5* 03None1 5* (+37) 10/* Programs */
> 1698231157 333713 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[073 Bits, 3 Bytes14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118366&oldid=118340 5* 03None1 5* (+3) 10/* Commands */
< 1698231312 937360 :picto!~picto@193.19.203.71 JOIN #esolangs * :picto
< 1698231317 569386 :picto!~picto@193.19.203.71 PART :#esolangs
< 1698231335 440624 :picto!~picto@193.19.203.71 JOIN #esolangs * :picto
< 1698231337 559753 :picto!~picto@193.19.203.71 PART :#esolangs
< 1698231361 553829 :picto!~picto@193.19.203.71 JOIN #esolangs * :picto
< 1698231365 553682 :picto!~picto@193.19.203.71 PART :#esolangs
< 1698231401 483216 :kwii!~kwii@193.19.203.71 JOIN #esolangs * :picto
< 1698231428 784100 :kwii!~kwii@193.19.203.71 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yay 
< 1698231432 554200 :kwii!~kwii@193.19.203.71 PRIVMSG #esolangs :finally got irc :3c
> 1698231508 394045 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[073 Bits, 3 Bytes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118367&oldid=118366 5* 03None1 5* (+360) 10Added a partial [[Truth Machine]]
> 1698231587 118059 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:3 Bits, 3 Bytes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118368&oldid=118310 5* 03None1 5* (+174) 10
> 1698231696 707296 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118369&oldid=118221 5* 03None1 5* (+108) 10/* 2KWLang */
> 1698231756 951349 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118370&oldid=118369 5* 03None1 5* (+87) 10/* 3 Bits, 3 Bytes */
> 1698231814 863893 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:3 Bits, 3 Bytes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118371&oldid=118368 5* 03None1 5* (+89) 10
< 1698232506 545635 :kwii!~kwii@193.19.203.71 PART :#esolangs
< 1698232524 547721 :kwii!~kwii@193.19.203.71 JOIN #esolangs kwii :picto
< 1698232668 751931 :kwii!~kwii@193.19.203.71 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1698234095 785689 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Minicoder 5*  10New user account
> 1698234251 180315 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118372&oldid=118362 5* 03Minicoder 5* (+145) 10
> 1698234269 567057 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Minicoder14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118373 5* 03Minicoder 5* (+5) 10Created page with "Hello"
> 1698234362 878780 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UndeadFish14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118374 5* 03None1 5* (+626) 10Created page with "'''UndeadFish''' is a [[Deadfish]] derivative, it is the same as [[Deadfish]], but the commands are different: {| class="wikitable" |+ Commands |- ! [[Deadfish]] !! [[UndeadFish]] |- | i || Don't run the Deadfish i command |- | d || Don't run the Deadfish d command |- |
> 1698234392 717074 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118375&oldid=118342 5* 03None1 5* (+17) 10/* U */
> 1698234393 301600 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Graphical Output14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118376&oldid=106322 5* 03Minicoder 5* (+18) 10
> 1698234426 603445 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118377&oldid=118279 5* 03None1 5* (+79) 10/* My Esolangs */
> 1698234777 659165 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[074 bits, 8 bytes14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118378&oldid=118365 5* 03TheBigH 5* (+16) 10Fixed some programs.
> 1698235991 729938 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:202314]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118379&oldid=105868 5* 03Minicoder 5* (+1) 10
> 1698236002 412369 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:202314]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118380&oldid=118379 5* 03Minicoder 5* (-1) 10
> 1698236159 465615 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Total14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118381&oldid=111377 5* 03Minicoder 5* (+0) 10sorted categories alphabetically
> 1698236389 893254 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mexico14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118382&oldid=118364 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+97) 10Categories
> 1698236411 578466 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mexico14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118383&oldid=118382 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+0) 10/* License */ Category
> 1698236436 817511 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mexico14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118384&oldid=118383 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+1) 10
< 1698236690 171241 :kwii!~kwii@193.19.203.71 JOIN #esolangs * :kwii
< 1698236716 163911 :kwii!~kwii@193.19.203.71 PART :#esolangs
< 1698236735 834079 :kwii37!~kwii@193.19.203.71 JOIN #esolangs kwii :[https://web.libera.chat] kwii
< 1698236796 338689 :kwii37!~kwii@193.19.203.71 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1698241832 870132 :mcfrdy!~mcfrdy@user/mcfrdy QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1698241852 894156 :mcfrdy!~mcfrdy@user/mcfrdy JOIN #esolangs mcfrdy :mcfrdy
> 1698242739 244344 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[074 bits, 8 bytes14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118385&oldid=118378 5* 03TheBigH 5* (+19) 10new program (again)
> 1698242762 182498 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[074 bits, 8 bytes14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118386&oldid=118385 5* 03TheBigH 5* (+0) 10
< 1698243038 625241 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1698243058 787878 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1698248673 80940 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1698252152 781937 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1698253179 392759 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1698253301 75439 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 JOIN #esolangs * :b_jonas
> 1698253350 887768 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PaxtonPenguin/Redirect14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118387 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+40) 10Redirected page to [[User:PaxtonPenguin/Redirect]]
> 1698253424 651977 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PaxtonPenguin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118388&oldid=117856 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+38) 10
> 1698253428 180895 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Infinitehexagon14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118389&oldid=118041 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+9) 10/* Other */
> 1698253661 757269 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118390&oldid=118316 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+110) 10
< 1698253965 461451 :Thelie!~Thelie@tmo-066-169.customers.d1-online.com JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie
> 1698254031 824867 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PaxtonPenguin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118391&oldid=117740 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+628) 10/* H */ new section
> 1698254350 231791 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Arraything14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118392&oldid=117883 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+76) 10
> 1698254818 251579 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Arraything14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118393&oldid=118392 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+81) 10
> 1698254921 16381 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Infinitehexagon14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118394&oldid=118389 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+14) 10/* My Esolangs (chronological order) */
> 1698255012 42566 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Arraything14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118395&oldid=118393 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+76) 10
< 1698255208 835026 :Guest35!~Guest35@2a02:a03f:e959:f300:60a1:168f:835a:54bf JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Guest35
< 1698255232 799261 :Guest35!~Guest35@2a02:a03f:e959:f300:60a1:168f:835a:54bf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hello
> 1698255402 916854 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lightswitch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118396&oldid=116926 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (-12) 10/* Built-In Keywords */
> 1698255442 351486 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CFRS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118397&oldid=118352 5* 03Susam 5* (+1) 10Fix extension name
> 1698255497 303065 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lightswitch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118398&oldid=118396 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+116) 10/* Cat program */
> 1698255539 431251 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lightswitch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118399&oldid=118398 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+2) 10/* Cat program */
> 1698255549 40888 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Punktuation14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118400 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+441) 10Created page with "Punktuation is a 2d programming language, that uses '''every''' punctuation symbol.  {| class="wikitable" |+  |- ! Symbols || and where to use them |- | + || add the top of the stack, to the second to the top |- | - || subtract |- | * || multiply |- | / || divi
> 1698255608 35985 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lightswitch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118401&oldid=118399 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+31) 10/* Cat program */
> 1698255622 784202 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lightswitch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118402&oldid=118401 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (-32) 10/* Cat program */
> 1698255707 439260 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lightswitch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118403&oldid=118402 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+42) 10/* Cat program */
< 1698255755 317882 :Guest35!~Guest35@2a02:a03f:e959:f300:60a1:168f:835a:54bf QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1698255820 247131 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lightswitch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118404&oldid=118403 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (-51) 10/* Cat program */
< 1698256443 220832 :Thelie!~Thelie@tmo-066-169.customers.d1-online.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1698256863 887313 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Len214]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118405 5* 03Infinitehexagon 5* (+963) 10Created page with "'''Len2''' is an esolang created by [[User:Infinitehexagon | Infinite Hexagon]]. Len2 is Infinite Hexagon's first pseudonatural esolang and his first esolang that uses hexadecimal.  [[Category:Cell-based]][[Category:2023]][[Category:Pseudonatural]][[Category: Works-
< 1698257174 606298 :Thelie!~Thelie@185.66.193.31 JOIN #esolangs * :Thelie
> 1698258805 253715 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ITERATE14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118406 5* 03Star651 5* (+637) 10You asked for it in the video description Truttle1
< 1698259110 121595 :we11en!~we11en@user/utoneq JOIN #esolangs zut :we11en
< 1698260158 668371 :fellow!~fellow@user/fellow JOIN #esolangs fellow :fellow
< 1698260203 466009 :fellow!~fellow@user/fellow PRIVMSG #esolangs :hello
< 1698260612 837547 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] FortyTwoBB
< 1698261487 648636 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :After much headache, I think I understand the FWC TC-ness. I still feel a real dissonance with my intuition, but I've dealt with that before.  Really, thank you for the work ais523. I've started again on the writeup and will post it in here when its done.
< 1698262243 657390 :fellow!~fellow@user/fellow PRIVMSG #esolangs :FortyTwoBB: what exactly is FWC and TC?
< 1698262256 399152 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :TC is Turing complete
< 1698262275 902191 :fellow!~fellow@user/fellow PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks. and FWC?
< 1698262282 717599 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :FWC is flooding waterclocks a variant on the waterfall model
< 1698262299 972984 :fellow!~fellow@user/fellow PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh don't know anything about that. need to look that up.
< 1698262313 797107 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's truly esoteric in the channel name's sense
< 1698262318 639656 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Flooding_Waterfall_Model
< 1698262345 349530 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Unlike TC which is a standard computer science concept.
< 1698262351 955312 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Notable for being possible to implement in Magic the Gathering
< 1698262394 784623 :fellow!~fellow@user/fellow PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks
< 1698262430 186330 :fellow!~fellow@user/fellow PRIVMSG #esolangs :I found this channel only today while learning about CFRS[] which I've been playing with for the last 2 days
< 1698262456 849800 :fellow!~fellow@user/fellow PRIVMSG #esolangs :the esolangs wiki is vast. I never knew there are so many esolangs
< 1698262475 618855 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which allows a MTG deck to do Busy Beaver computations without allowing it to do unbounded damage.
< 1698262500 863108 :fellow!~fellow@user/fellow PRIVMSG #esolangs :I even found one that does not take any user input and compiles based on current time. so many clever ideas.
< 1698262531 847033 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah turns out you don't actually need all that much to be TC
< 1698262570 850094 :fellow!~fellow@user/fellow PRIVMSG #esolangs :CFRS[] is described as total. what would it take to make it TC?
< 1698262611 973403 :fellow!~fellow@user/fellow PRIVMSG #esolangs :and is TC always a desirable quality? I read somewhere that TC means Turing Halting Problem exists. and total means the halting problem does not exist. is that right?
< 1698262693 315856 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, it gives a sane upper bound for how long an arbitrary input takes to finish.
< 1698262744 221747 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fellow: It's definitely not always desirable.
< 1698262771 525525 :fellow!~fellow@user/fellow PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks
< 1698262787 755583 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it looks like CFRS would need some sort of branching instruction, IE a way to read what color it is currently looking at and either turn right or left or something like that.
< 1698262796 239528 :fellow!~fellow@user/fellow PRIVMSG #esolangs :must esolang always execute something? can esolang simply be a markup language?
< 1698262833 771080 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(as well as being unrestricted by the 256x256 canvas)
< 1698262887 241843 :fellow!~fellow@user/fellow PRIVMSG #esolangs :isn't it true that these days bounded memory is not considered a problem for Turing Completeness as long as we can show that the language is TC if there is a hypothetical unbounded memory?
< 1698262893 242205 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fellow: It's really about programming languages for us (not just speaking for myself, see also the topic and the main page of the wiki.)
< 1698262958 383481 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, infinite memory is a practical problem
< 1698263006 264674 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but in theory we can use as much memory as we want
< 1698263055 407449 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :TC-ness is a property of languages in the abstract (as models of computation), not of implementations.
< 1698263093 65637 :fellow!~fellow@user/fellow PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks. that makes more sense than what I said.
< 1698263099 622076 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :We all know that in practice we'll often run out of memory or time before a computation ever finishes.
< 1698263246 404328 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, a bunch of esolangs are not efficient at all for real problems
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> 1698270252 750998 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07$14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118407&oldid=109178 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+154) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the $ programming language on GitHub and changed the category tag Unimplemented to Implemented.
> 1698270498 299253 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07$14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118408&oldid=118407 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+447) 10Introduced an examples section comprehending two initial members: one furnishing a Hello, World!, the other an infinitely repeating cat program.
< 1698270950 577242 :Thelie!~Thelie@185.66.193.31 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
> 1698275421 654097 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Punktuation14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118409 5* 03None1 5* (+171) 10Created page with "The pipe symbol | can be used in tables using HTML escape character ({{cd|&#124;}}) --~~~~"
< 1698275464 982664 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1698282151 848795 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1698282157 38332 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1698282238 128804 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
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< 1698283859 351835 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1698285211 911324 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
< 1698287323 363820 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1698287353 322021 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :<fellow> and is TC always a desirable quality? ← the most interesting esolangs are normally those for which either a) it isn't obvious whether they're TC or not, or b) they fail to be TC in an interesting or unusual way
< 1698287372 301523 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, that are TC despite being extremely simple
< 1698287418 686848 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :<int-e> We all know that in practice we'll often run out of memory or time before a computation ever finishes. ← although in practice it is often possible to write an optimising interpreter that can implement the very slow programs in reasonable time
< 1698287509 640200 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :<FortyTwoBB> After much headache, I think I understand the FWC TC-ness. I still feel a real dissonance with my intuition, but I've dealt with that before.  Really, thank you for the work ais523. I've started again on the writeup and will post it in here when its done. ← I'm looking forward to it; I've been looking at the M:tG BB construction myself and have been making progress on understanding it, although I still don't have a a grasp of how the whole 
< 1698287511 173931 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thing hangs together
< 1698287572 861465 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :<fellow> must esolang always execute something? can esolang simply be a markup language? ← esoteric non-programming languages are less popular than esoteric programming languages, but do get discussed on IRC sometimes – I'm not sure if people put them on the wiki
< 1698288173 288504 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1698288246 107802 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1698290365 95472 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I really had problems in mind that exceed our computing facilities... solving chess would be a very likely example.
< 1698291293 722799 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: ah right, but that sort of computation isn't any better in practical languages than in esolangs
< 1698291321 140445 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes. It wasn't about esolangs at all.
< 1698291434 743448 :wpa!uid568065@id-568065.helmsley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs WeepingAngel :wpa
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< 1698295123 178167 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
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< 1698302681 865274 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
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< 1698307475 886883 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1698308849 370544 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Kant2002 5*  10New user account
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> 1698309138 27192 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118410&oldid=118372 5* 03Kant2002 5* (+128) 10
> 1698309678 238694 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GAXT14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118411&oldid=106770 5* 03Kant2002 5* (+0) 10
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< 1698312836 792072 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie
> 1698314317 738326 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Idea14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118412&oldid=102917 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (-4) 10a is just a literal, I think?
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< 1698316678 365501 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
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< 1698318320 879847 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
> 1698322935 826546 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GAXT14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118413&oldid=118411 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+63) 10/* Grammar */ Categories
> 1698323006 152062 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Homespring14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118414&oldid=55494 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+9) 10Stub
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> 1698332699 53453 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Vertica Smile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118415&oldid=25366 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+24) 10Category
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> 1698339490 378114 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PaxtonPenguin/Sandbox14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118416 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+102) 10Created page with "Welcome to Hell This is where i put my stupid ideas Enjoy. ;)  =1= ==2== ===3=== ====4==== =====5====="
> 1698339686 933210 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PaxtonPenguin/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118417&oldid=118416 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+59) 10
> 1698339783 783798 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PaxtonPenguin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118418&oldid=118388 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+44) 10
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> 1698342862 717371 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snek14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118419&oldid=108910 5* 03KingJellyfish 5* (+11) 10
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< 1698345935 834381 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] FortyTwoBB
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< 1698346299 431539 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523 yeah I understand being confused by the rest of the structure. Probably the most mechanically difficult bits are the transitions before/after worldfire and spite. I'm trying to be overly detailed with those explanations to make sure it all works. Conceptually hardest is definitely understanding how higher tier stages even work (well that and
< 1698346299 931230 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :FWC TC, but you obviously know that already lol)
< 1698346496 910222 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, our particular construction has computation in an awkward spot that makes the structure even more confusing when you consider where we actually benefit from the output.
< 1698346618 791319 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :output=BB zombies -> starlight life -> lingering souls casts -> TYS storm count is finally something preserved through worldfires.
< 1698346959 228782 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1698346989 211325 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but if you have specific questions I'm happy to provide whatever answers I can
< 1698347014 710796 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1698347085 69394 :kwii!~kwii@193.19.203.71 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what's the context of this topic/what is this esolang?
< 1698347172 384844 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is the most damage without going infinite in magic the gathering. the strategy involves implementing https://esolangs.org/wiki/Flooding_Waterfall_Model which was recently proven to be TC
< 1698347232 821546 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thus the computation produces busy beaver numbers as output
< 1698347288 271422 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The rest of the deck focuses on iterating the computation as many times as possible to get 'higher order' busy beaver numbers
< 1698347357 743685 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :FortyTwoBB: it took me a while to work out what the lowest-level output was that's the multiplier for the highest stages
< 1698347369 884653 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I realised it had to be storm, because it's a resource that can't be spent, only used
< 1698347378 618337 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :BB_0(X)=BB(X) BB_n+1(X)=BB^N(X)
< 1698347398 838417 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err no
< 1698347440 672325 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :BB_n+1(X)=BB_N^(BB_N(X))(X)
< 1698347514 910445 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :does this mean that you don't have busy beaver factors in the lowest stages?
< 1698347578 453284 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well storm turns into everything else via fated infatuation
< 1698347603 574351 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one thing I realised is that if you're using an iterated busy beaver function, the first few iterations don't need to be large enough to be TC, just to create a number larger than themselves
< 1698347635 452399 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then the TCness can start showing up after a few iterations
< 1698347655 846512 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, numbers being too small for the first computation is not really an issue anymore
< 1698347713 362841 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.149.238.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1698347747 920800 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what resource is spent to cast Fated Infatuation?
< 1698347748 984285 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Older versions had to prove they could break out with like 70 permanents, this version will have more like 70^^^70 permanents at least
< 1698347766 376711 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :life to pay lingering souls flashback
< 1698347777 447912 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :triggers spellweaver volute
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< 1698347795 28622 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh right, there was some discussion in-thread about rulings on Spellweaver Helix
< 1698347815 721856 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you have a choice about whether or not to copy the spell, and if you do, you have a choice about whether or not to cast the copy (you can just let the copy fizzle without casting it)
< 1698347833 342812 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so if the Spellweaver Helix trigger gets copied, you can cast the spell from some copies and not others
< 1698347842 936048 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah apparently even if the copy is not something that can normally fizzle like worldfire
< 1698347868 15418 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, even if you can't fizzle due to lack of targets you can just not put it on the stack in the first place
< 1698347882 621912 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is not how I expected the card to work, but its certainly convenient
< 1698347886 19164 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's weird for the card to give you two choices
< 1698347903 850262 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name Spellweaver Helix
< 1698347905 989446 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Spellweaver Helix \ 3 \ Artifact \ Imprint -- When Spellweaver Helix enters the battlefield, you may exile two target sorcery cards from a single graveyard. \ Whenever a player casts a card, if it has the same name as one of the cards exiled with Spellweaver Helix, you may copy the other. If you do, you may cast the copy without paying its mana cost. \ MRD-R
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< 1698347911 209101 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :3/1/2005 The creation of the copy and then the casting of the copy are both optional. 
< 1698347986 163244 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wording weird enough that they had to write a ruling to say that the card actually does what it says it does
< 1698348052 607414 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also if it has 3 or more cards imprinted on it you cast them from the same trigger.
< 1698348096 432075 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so we imprint worldfire, starlight, and the only sorcery we have two copies of
< 1698348100 709427 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am a little more concerned about that one because IIRC the rules for copying imprint triggers changed recently-ish, so there are some formerly correct rulings floating around online that are no longer correct
< 1698348109 935054 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but maybe I'm thinking about something else
< 1698348127 97299 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we double checked that when it changed
< 1698348185 985235 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the main difference was with split/double faced cards but it doesn't effect us
< 1698348210 937232 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd expect it to work because imprint doesn't have rules text any more, so it doesn't notionally function any differently from, say, Dauthi Voidwalker
< 1698348308 334265 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :607.3. If, within a pair of linked abilities, one ability refers to a single object as “the exiled card,” “a card exiled with [this card],” or a similar phrase, and the other ability has exiled multiple cards (usually because it was copied), the ability refers to each of the exiled cards. If that ability asks for any information about the exiled card, such as a characteristic or mana value, it gets multiple answers. If these answers are used to 
< 1698348308 594706 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah its just cards linked to an ability, there are a few odd corner cases where you can get multiple different linked abilities that don't interact
< 1698348309 921544 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :determine the value of a variable, the sum of the answers is used. If that ability performs any actions on “the” card, it performs that action on each exiled card. If that ability creates a token that is a copy of “the” card, then for each exiled card, it creates a token that is a copy of that card. If that ability performs any actions on “a” card, the controller of the ability chooses which card is affected.
< 1698348316 225281 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(from the rules dated October 13 2013)
< 1698348322 423178 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a very clear answer
< 1698348366 682165 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…although I'd hate having to rule that in languages other than English, which don't make a distinction between "a" and "the"
< 1698348378 546511 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the official ruling is presumably "look at the English card text")
< 1698348546 460017 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Constricting sliver can be artificial evolution-d to grant another linked exile ability to say dauthi voidwalker. you can't use the voidwalker's natural ability to cast the card it exiled due to the sliver's ability
< 1698348564 812774 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name Constricting sliver
< 1698348565 896862 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Constricting Sliver \ 5W \ Creature -- Sliver \ 3/3 \ Sliver creatures you control have "When this creature enters the battlefield, you may exile target creature an opponent controls until this creature leaves the battlefield." \ M15-U
< 1698348610 617714 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :dauthi voidwalker is a bad example, it uses counters to know which cards it can cast
< 1698348652 462647 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, right
< 1698348660 714152 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but even if it didnt
< 1698348813 892103 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :intellect devourer then
< 1698348823 639119 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.149.238.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Quit: gone too far
< 1698348945 947257 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Jacob Hauken, inspector even has two ways for it to exile cards for it to cast, but couldnt cast something it exiled thanks to the sliver
< 1698349025 877688 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess my key question at the moment is: say the volute hyperstage is locked (it has created a whole load of martyr triggers that are currently in use, and can't be reused without destroying them)
< 1698349036 382785 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* martyr tokens
< 1698349049 116095 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is it possible to run a computation for each martyr token? or do we have to unlock the volute first?
< 1698349416 783764 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :have to unlock
< 1698349446 645843 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this makes me wonder if the foundry stage is worth it at all, then
< 1698349470 34356 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because it's basically increasing things by an Ackermann function factor, but the busy beaver function grows so fast as to make that factor irrelevant
< 1698349502 737729 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, but thats only the 'topmost' foundry stage
< 1698349527 804908 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lower foundry stages power the transitions for more computations
< 1698349559 588285 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :couldn't you do that with a layer instead, and save a lot of card slots?
< 1698349613 296891 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :No, a stage powers many more transitions than a layer would
< 1698349648 606949 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the number of transitions you get is already a busy beaver number
< 1698349663 556776 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :applying any computable function to that doesn't significantly change its size
< 1698349688 319381 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because you could just implement the same computable function inside the Flooding Waterfall Model program instead, using a very slightly larger starting state
< 1698349902 827679 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :basically because the higher order stage structure is recursive, we can lose some efficiency at the top for more efficiency on the overall structure
< 1698350030 208901 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can think of the martyr/soul foundry stage just below the topmost volute stage as powering a computation per martyr
< 1698350069 84256 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that, if you replaced the foundry stage with a layer, and used the card slots saved by that to give you even one more starting token for the first computation, it would produce a larger output – but I don't fully understand the construction so may well be wrong
< 1698350146 761519 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because while the volute stage is locked, you don't run computations, so you're creating some function of the amount of life you have – this is a fast-growing function but it's still computable, and thus an irrelevant part of the overall construction
< 1698350175 282800 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and what's actually needed is to save as many card slots as possible for it, rather than making it grow as fast as possible
< 1698350201 486056 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, not of the amount of life, of the amount of martyr tokens
< 1698350252 22817 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because you could just get the Flooding Waterfall Model program to compute the same function before outputting, with a constant-sized amount of overhead
< 1698350482 676669 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but a layer at the top of a stage doesn't do anything. just go into the stage with 2 more life or one more
< 1698350483 884361 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :R
< 1698350541 634285 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :exactly – my point is that even that does more than putting a stage below the computation
< 1698350612 164335 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but its also still a stage for rebuilding the rest of the stack, the real work it does is in providing transitions
< 1698350716 281453 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel like a stage is necessarily either too large or not large enough for that
< 1698350733 224818 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it isn't large enough to handle BB levels of output, but a layer would be large enough to handle anything smaller
< 1698350763 307309 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :consider after we have run out of life for computations above the first worldfire, we run through the awaiting transition triggers to get back into a state to cast worldfire again
< 1698350823 384350 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :when we cast worldfire, the stack is the same as it was but we are down some fraction of the martyr stage below those transitions
< 1698351042 39988 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, so you're casting worldfire at instant speed with a whole load of martyr triggers on the stack below it, and the number of martyr triggers determines how many times you can cast worldfire at that particular stack state
< 1698351052 575747 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1698351084 179501 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the topmost martyr stages are worthless yes
< 1698351101 561101 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but in the middle of the stack they get rebuild with updated BB heights
< 1698351107 810147 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which a layer could not no
< 1698351115 910022 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :not do
< 1698351175 879969 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :most of the time we will be at the top of the stack and BB computations dominate.
< 1698351194 836216 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we want to iterate those as much as possible
< 1698351206 848888 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but in any given batch of consecutive martyr triggers, there's no way to increase the size of the batch based on a computation once the batch has already been created
< 1698351220 268111 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the initial size of the batch is based on a BB output
< 1698351271 73862 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, hmm, maybe not? this is really confusing
< 1698351289 172714 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the number of BB iterations we get is the important thing
< 1698351343 102629 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what I am wondering about is whether we can just make the batches of triggers larger, rather than using them more efficiently
< 1698351380 730512 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they get larger as the combo goes
< 1698351391 581056 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, of course
< 1698351450 622849 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so when we reach the bottom of the stack, we remake the stack with more layers and stages
< 1698351521 389344 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because BB_N(X+1)<BB_N+1(X)
< 1698351591 746035 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I think the point where the problem is (if there is a problem) is that in the foundry stage, in between creating and using the transition, no computations run, you are just taking tokens and very efficiently converting them to storm
< 1698351655 113592 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, not tokens, triggers
< 1698351667 255449 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :only at the very top of the stack, we can leave all of those triggers on the stack and do computations above them,
< 1698351692 453551 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :not while the foundry stage is locked
< 1698351695 147682 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :storm does get converted into computations as well
< 1698351730 663359 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, the whole batch of ashnod-triggers has to be converted into storm all at once
< 1698351740 991540 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can't do computations in the middle of converting the batch
< 1698351767 280595 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that particular conversion might actually already be as simple as possible
< 1698351770 832918 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in terms of card slots
< 1698351793 848196 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so maybe there isn't an inefficiency
< 1698351906 952188 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :brb
< 1698351908 213373 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we can leave ashnod triggers on the stack and retarget the martys when the ashnods resolve
< 1698352508 159176 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, you *iterate* the busy beaver function. so that's why you need to capture the output of the busy beaver in a usable form! that's what I didn't understand the last time
< 1698352669 305386 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :FortyTwoBB: back
< 1698352671 360014 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I was wrong
< 1698352684 81213 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I think the reason is that I didn't understand the difference between a hyperstage and two stages
< 1698352723 486082 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah converting the output into the next bb computation input is easy
< 1698352821 315165 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :technically we might only be able to make BB(BB(X)-1) when we iterate but that -1 is pretty irrelevant
< 1698352873 104247 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it's not just iterating it, it's an Ackermann-like function that has a busy beaver in rather than a multiplication
< 1698352874 317171 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah higher order stages are kind of crazy
< 1698352883 198504 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and that's just a single stage
< 1698352898 87028 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the higher order stages are somewhat hard to comprehend, as this conversation indicates
< 1698352966 632448 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1698352978 816869 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cyclic Amplification System14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118420&oldid=68232 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+17) 10/* Another example for a computation that does many executions finitely */ Rectwrap
< 1698353238 949434 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :“<ais523> (the official ruling is presumably ‘look at the English card text’)” => it always is, because the other language texts are not generally updated when the oracle text is changed, unless the card is reprinted.  also because the comp. rules doesn't have translations, and I don't think there's even an easy way to find the english word from a magic-specific word (eg. keyword or type or 
< 1698353244 959042 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :subtype) in a foreign language, there are no translation tables published.  as far as the rules go, nothing but the current oracle text matters, and that exists only in English.
< 1698353270 164543 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also the translations often have major errors in
< 1698353290 737270 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think as recently as this year, there was a translated card printed with the wrong mana cost for an ability
< 1698353294 348165 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1698353368 839635 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah they have gotten better, but mistackes still happen
< 1698353404 723537 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hasnt been another 'card-by-name walking atlas in english for a while
< 1698353419 528442 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :'card-by-name walking atlas
< 1698353440 384662 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name walking atlas
< 1698353441 755586 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Walking Atlas \ 2 \ Artifact Creature -- Construct \ 1/1 \ {T}: You may put a land card from your hand onto the battlefield. \ WWK-C
< 1698353457 448421 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(backtick, not quote)
< 1698353493 386902 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah thats the oracle text, the printed card is not an artifact
< 1698353516 815268 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they just left that word off
< 1698353649 549976 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :“<ais523> … in languages other than English, which don't make a distinction between ‘a’ and ‘the’” => since last year they stopped printing new sets in korean, russian, and chinese traditional, so there's at most two of those standing, but there are of course lots of other reasons why it can be hard to figure out the rules from the translated text
< 1698353697 710923 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But oracle text is almost always good enough to define how the card works within the rules
< 1698353702 489267 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I expect "an exiled card" would be used only on cards that normally exile multiple, and on those the translated text is likely clear that the second ability affects only one of them
< 1698353811 985150 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name dominating licid
< 1698353813 15724 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Dominating Licid \ 1UU \ Creature -- Licid \ 1/1 \ {1}{U}{U}, {T}: Dominating Licid loses this ability and becomes an Aura enchantment with enchant creature. Attach it to target creature. You may pay {U} to end this effect. \ You control enchanted creature. \ EX-R
< 1698353828 55591 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :does not work because of layers
< 1698353842 649716 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :does nowadays, they finally errata'd it and/or changed the rules so that it would work
< 1698353851 832169 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :after a small but vocal minority complained for years
< 1698353861 483062 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :♥
< 1698353862 546182 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh? what changed?
< 1698353883 591503 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can't remember
< 1698353939 355829 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, I think the bot may have brought up the post-errata version
< 1698353961 644675 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"You control enchanted creature" is now part of its text even as a creature, so there isn't a layers issue with whether that ability exists or not
< 1698353994 844319 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah thats a clever change
> 1698354172 608860 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Trigational Pseudoomninumitype14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118421&oldid=108921 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+24) 10Category
< 1698354172 882038 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, it's mostly just the oracle text that matters, except (1) you have to find the version of the oracle text as it was at the start of a tournament if it's been updated during the tournament, and (2) between a set releases and the comp. rules is updated you have to use the set FAQ / release notes to determine how any new functionality like new keywords work.
< 1698354173 384297 :Thelie1!~Thelie@185.66.193.31 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
> 1698354183 813724 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Trigational Pseudoomninumitype14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118422&oldid=118421 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+0) 10/* Examples */
< 1698354321 448490 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the numbers go higher than I can imagine then, if your construction really works
< 1698354358 197572 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even one iteration of the busy beaver function goes higher than anyone can imagine, if it's starting from a sufficiently large number (which could be quite small)
< 1698354368 962276 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1698354447 842395 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so roughly the stack structure is some layers at the bottom, then three stages, then worldfire transitions for each red, each worldfire has a spite transition for each 2 life, then each of those has a martyr stage in between.
< 1698354455 50847 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, because the BB of a sufficiently large number will very likely be not determined by ZFC, and even in an esoteric model like this, a few exponentials of code size should be more than enough to reach that stage
< 1698354460 117544 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and at the top of the stack is computation
< 1698354521 570153 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unless I made a mistake calculating the complexity class, we're definitely within three exponentials of a Turing machine and probably within two
< 1698354522 386016 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :isn't the bound down to like bb(700) to break out of ZFC?
< 1698354540 989349 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :last time I looked it was a four-digit number, but I haven't been paying that much attention
< 1698354591 335579 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :FortyTwo: not here, because we're using flooding waterfall, and with the matrix entries encoded in unary (eg. you need as many token copies as the sum of matrix entries), that's much less efficient than turing machines or anything like that
< 1698354623 172788 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah so we need like BB(700^^^700)
< 1698354651 799212 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I'm hoping that you can generate a large enough number with the parts of the deck outside of the waterfall thing to take off, and that there are enough creature types available
< 1698354666 255487 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: fwiw it wouldn't surprise me if one exponential were possible, via using a fixed-size interpreter that decodes the program to interpret from a constant
> 1698354700 68209 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Yoob14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118423&oldid=42296 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-6) 10/* External resources */ Update link
< 1698354701 636246 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are definitely enough creature types available, the original waterfall model can be done in 7 counters, flooding waterfall model can be done in less than 100
< 1698354725 394961 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the waterfall thing can take off with hardly any tokens because you don't need to be TC on the first iteration, just generate an output larger than the input
< 1698354765 152979 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and flooding waterfall model can do an exponentiation on incredibly limited resources, as long as you want to output the result rather than doing further computations with it
< 1698354857 360514 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you need just one creature type per clock, plus a constant overhead, right?
< 1698354884 5873 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for flooding waterfall model, it's one creature type per flooding waterclock
< 1698354895 855912 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :good
< 1698354899 716428 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, so we can have 250+ clocks
< 1698354919 523764 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are about 280 creature types in Magic these days
< 1698354946 778677 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(of course the reality is probably even bigger than what we can prove)
< 1698354983 147935 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Its still on the order of BB(X)
< 1698355030 922870 :fellow!~fellow@user/fellow PRIVMSG #esolangs :what is the best way to prove that a language is Turing Complete?
< 1698355035 687708 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.213.213.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl QUIT :
< 1698355041 940971 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry, I mean the reality for how small code size you need to start to take off is likely lower than what we can prove is enough
< 1698355081 389282 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fellow: there's a range of languages designed for proving things TC; you have to either write a compiler from one of those into your language, or to write an interpreter for one of those in your language
< 1698355087 679181 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fellow: compile an existing simple computational model to it, such as two-stack machines, two-counter Minsky machines
< 1698355103 250108 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one of my big esolang projects has been trying to work out the best languages to use as the source
< 1698355109 744453 :fellow!~fellow@user/fellow PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: but then how are those languages proven to be Turing Complete?
< 1698355128 204285 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fellow: normally with a chain of progressively simpler languages implementing each other
< 1698355129 904526 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :When You really want to prove something, You will find Ways.
< 1698355142 405653 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fellow: the same way, just with a few simulation layers until you get to whatever language you take as the definition of Turing-complete
< 1698355154 80606 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, most of the chain has been proven already, so you only need to do the bit at the end of the chain
< 1698355190 765552 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what is relevant here in Minsky machines, which you prove Turing-complete by simulating a finite control multi-stack machine on one
< 1698355194 117033 :fellow!~fellow@user/fellow PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: sounds circular to me. if Turing completeness is always defined in terms of another language, how can we ever be sure which language is turing complete. somewhere we need to break the cycle, no?
< 1698355205 133258 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for what it's worth, I currently believe that the easiest languages to compile from are either simple queue-based tarpits or simple counter-based tarpits, and which is simpler depends on the nature of data storage in your target language
< 1698355212 51858 :fellow!~fellow@user/fellow PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks. minsky machine. need to learn about it.
< 1698355218 272181 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fellow: it's rooted at Turing machines, which are Turing-complete by definition
< 1698355222 143533 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it eventually comes back down to a turing maching
< 1698355233 383909 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fellow: no, you define Turing-completeness in terms of one specific language, and then you take a chain of simulations to that one language
< 1698355260 344686 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you could pick any other TC language as the example that defines the whole set, but Turing machines were picked early and the choice stuck (I guess it doesn't really matter)
< 1698355315 803695 :fellow!~fellow@user/fellow PRIVMSG #esolangs :so Brainfuck without the two I/O commands is still turing complete if given infinite memory cells?
< 1698355322 186542 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :different people can have different preferences of the definition, it doesn't matter as long as we can prove them equivalent using simulations
< 1698355341 962609 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fellow: yes, Brainfuck without IO on an infinite tape is Turing-complete
< 1698355349 512665 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fellow: for what it's worth, my current "simplest picks" for counter-based languages are https://esolangs.org/wiki/The_Waterfall_Model and https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainpocalypse_II, and for queue-based languages are the various simplified tag machines, https://esolangs.org/wiki/Cyclic_tag_system or https://esolangs.org/wiki/Tag_system are probably the most commonly used there
< 1698355370 206573 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fellow: I/O isn't needed for Turing-completeness, the definition doesn't consider IO at all
< 1698355375 980264 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the Church-Turing thesis showed the computational class all being equivalently powerful for computation/work/simulation/etc
< 1698355382 960195 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so we sometimes talk about, e.g., BF-completeness when we care about I/O working
< 1698355433 493331 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for the two Magic: the Gathering constructions, M:tG is simulating Flooding Waterfall, which is simualting The Waterfall Machine, which is simulating a Minsky machine, which is simulating a multi-stack machine
< 1698355488 259254 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it's simulating Flooding Waterfall Model, which is compiled to from The Waterfall Model, which is interpreting Spiral Rise, which is interpreting a tag system (and Turing machines can be compiled into tag systems)
< 1698355491 264118 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :except that the Flooding Waterfall, Waterfall, and Minsky machine stages are strictly limited in how many clocks or counter they can have, because of the limit of 280 or so creature types
< 1698355507 181259 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the Spiral Rise interpreter is known to fit within the required number of creature types, which is the reason to do it that way
< 1698355507 926936 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, it goes through tag systems instead of Minsky machines?
< 1698355511 464661 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see
< 1698355528 855801 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, what ais523 says then
< 1698355564 709111 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one weird observation I've had recently, which feels like it might be more than a coincidence, is that it's easiest to compile counter machines into counter machines and queue automata into queue automata (unsurprisingly), but also to interpret counter machines with queue automata and queue automata with counter machines
< 1698355566 890601 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah 7 clocks is enough for a UTM in waterfall, so like 50 clocks is enough to simulate that in flooding
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< 1698355591 449814 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :50 would be enough if you could start up with damage marked on the tokens
< 1698355607 603492 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in practice you need a few more because that isn't a valid startup state
< 1698355686 907780 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: um, I don't understand. Minsky machines should be able to interpret multi-stack machines more directly than Minsky machines can interpret queue automata
< 1698355688 148530 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah i dont think we can start predamaged
< 1698355727 78179 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :FortyTwoBB: it's fine, there's already a construction to compute a predamaged state rather than starting in it
< 1698355735 857835 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's just, that computation needs extra counters to work
< 1698355748 878923 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :how do queue automata come into this if you start from counter machines (as opposed to if you start from M:tG or Waterfall)?
< 1698355768 679789 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: so the basic idea is that a stack is encoded in counters using the digits of a number
< 1698355794 189210 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and a queue can be encoded the same way, you just need to know where the back of the queue is in order to push onto it (via addition)
< 1698355835 453116 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but if you don't track the end of the queue and instead just move the push position a set number of place values each time, the resulting language is still generally TC anyway
< 1698355857 625327 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, and Minsky machines can only access the lowest digits, like a stack; as opposed to eg. blindfolded arithmetic which could use a number as a deque of digits directly by using an extra counter that stores the unit of the highest digit
< 1698355866 965325 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(in fact it is possible to design simple TC queue automata where every cycle pushes a constant amount onto the queue, so the position of the back of the queue moves linearly)
< 1698355880 993192 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh! 
< 1698355885 380081 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: they can only *read* the lowest digits
< 1698355899 740675 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :writing at the most significant end is not particularly difficult, though
< 1698355937 459417 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so in Minsky machine you can have an unshift-push-pop queue (which can't shift) directly
< 1698355943 531240 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's nice, I haven't realized that
< 1698355945 709494 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right
< 1698355970 954736 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is basically the data structure I used in Esimpl, although I didn't realise at the time how well it mapped onto counter machines
< 1698355991 216693 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :how many counters do you need for that to start to work? four?
< 1698356007 690328 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe three is enough
< 1698356038 837558 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :two counters can implement any number of counters, so the answer to that depends on the extent to which you're allowed to cheat, which is hard to objectively define
< 1698356047 948003 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah
< 1698356049 154741 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1698356130 159262 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe I didn't realize this because I don't usually *want* to simulate queues instead of stacks
< 1698356138 867856 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1698356143 850141 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, Spiral Rise can be implemented with (6 + 1 halt) Waterfall Model counters or (5 + 1 halt) tag system states
< 1698356164 908390 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which gets around the lack-of-objective-definition problem by charging for the control flow in addition to the data storage
< 1698356181 188133 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, tag system symbols, not states
< 1698356272 478927 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and this matters because the translation from Waterfall to Flooding Waterfall is somewhat inefficient in the number of clocks, right?
< 1698356318 943325 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yes – it's linear but the constant factor is fairly bad
< 1698356328 647538 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :its like 7 clocks per clock plus some overhead
< 1698356347 324789 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok
< 1698356513 881252 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it's 6 clocks per clock, + constant overhead, + startup overhead, but the startup overhead is linear in the number of clocks
< 1698356524 479908 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least with the way ais523 found to do it. its possible that theres a better way, but that's not super relevant
< 1698356565 922856 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is almost certainly a better way, but not much incentive to find it at this point
< 1698356612 383385 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right
< 1698356635 953603 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah this works comfortably and isn't massively more inefficient than necessary
< 1698356681 926695 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because as long as you fit in the 280 or so creature types, the actual number of creature types is unlikely to matter for the M:tG construction
< 1698356689 872137 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :exactly
< 1698356862 326373 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if we were more limited and adding clocks to keep the necromancers alive and a clock or two to keep the output nice was starting to run into the limits of the namespace id be worried, but its nowhere close
< 1698357006 766322 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is so theoretical, in real games I think three is the largest number of different tokens that I've produced, perhaps four if I forgot something
< 1698357033 239412 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :absolutely
< 1698357095 994910 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this deck is unlikely to win any normal game of vintage
< 1698357168 212227 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a single force of will or force of vigor or force of negation in the wrong spot kills us
< 1698357183 708308 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or not drawing the correct starting hand
< 1698357218 684024 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the correct top like 19 cards
< 1698357290 285489 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I mean even in those 1/60! games we still force the opponent to draw, and nearly every deck has some 0 mana interaction on the draw.
< 1698357294 170311 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my competitive version of the deck (which just aims to do a computation, not to do anything with the output) is now only six sideboard slots away from a real Legacy deck (Legacy rather than Vintage so that there's less disruption to fight through), although that deck cares a lot about its sideboard space
< 1698357321 318649 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, it's ais's deck that tries to win games, but the part where the Flooding Waterfall program should fit in the 280 or so creature types applies just as much to ais's dekc
< 1698357349 880695 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :FortyTwoBB: one of the top Vintage decks at the moment is mono-white initiative, I don't think it has zero mana interaction pre-board other than start-of-game actions
< 1698357363 560540 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so drawing it extra cards is not necessarily going to ruin your chances
< 1698357386 495954 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :solitude
< 1698357406 742449 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah yes
< 1698357487 538221 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :really its just the non-blue shops decks that might just have a mental misstep preboard
< 1698357509 825879 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :colorless shops doesn't even run that, apparently (I just checked a list of the top vintage decks)
< 1698357540 508567 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although it has mindbreak traps in the sideboard, in case it goes up against a turn 1 combo deck
< 1698357575 516033 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and we don't care about mental misstep
< 1698357592 743789 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, the deck might potentially be able to combo through a solitude?
< 1698357633 190913 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no solitude can interrupt computations
< 1698357670 333290 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that makes the deck go cooperatively infinite, and the opponent in this situation presumably isn't cooperating
< 1698357706 230780 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well then the exile our riftsweeper and fizzle us
< 1698357761 352998 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah right, that's the chokepoint
< 1698357812 412612 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the infinite in my competitive deck is *really* janky, it involves using a set of copies of Fractured Identity to transfer a Riftsweeper token back and forth between the players, while there are relevant cards in exile
< 1698357812 983986 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think we can still kill them, but its not nearly as impressive
< 1698357834 793094 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but enough of them so that the opponent can't unexile enough to stop the combo
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< 1698357889 630814 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah trying to make SB cards do double duty as actually reasonable magic cards is tricky
< 1698358022 942496 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway i g2g soon any thing else i can answer in the next few mins?
< 1698358037 835613 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think there's any pressing issues remaining
< 1698358049 396273 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least, not that I can think of right now
< 1698358061 911847 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is fun watching the progress of the construction in the thread
< 1698358078 61309 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ill still logcheck if you think of something
< 1698358094 988319 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: you should still summarize or at least link your Netrunner construction from the wiki
< 1698358108 297572 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I did on my user page, didn't I?
< 1698358113 60879 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unless you are ok with me just reformatting the whole thing to wiki
< 1698358122 99380 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah yes, your user page links to it
< 1698358131 132420 :FortyTwoBB!~FortyTwoB@155.190.3.6 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1698358135 48931 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but even so, it should have a link from the main namespace too
< 1698358150 912945 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so that it's found in normal searches
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< 1698368615 324649 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1698374721 890828 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sharp14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118424&oldid=103545 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+17) 10/* Concepts */ Nowiki
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< 1698382981 661329 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had mention before about "scalar monad" of category of matrices, which would be a identity matrix multiplied and divided by the nonzero scalar number (unless, it is a mistake), and that the Kleisli category is just as good as the original, and that it could also be a comonad just as good as the monad.
< 1698383041 963916 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :But, I guess that identity monad of any category is a kind of scalar monad, and that a scalar monad is also possible by multiplying any category by any abelian group (such as a group of only one element). Is it?
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> 1698384338 185148 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Four14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118425&oldid=77876 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+118) 10Categories
< 1698384399 443991 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.6.47 JOIN #esolangs * :b_jonas
< 1698384626 920271 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sometimes a bold 2 is used in category theory to mean a category with two objects and the arrow only one way. But, I think it would be consistent with usual mathematical notation for non-bold numbers to denote discrete categories.
< 1698384716 947419 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :What is your opinion?
< 1698389209 376642 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1698393906 468757 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
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> 1698404124 64807 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[073 Bits, 3 Bytes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118426&oldid=118367 5* 03None1 5* (+124) 10Added Python interpreter and implemented category tag
> 1698404422 595994 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Drawfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118427&oldid=105205 5* 03None1 5* (+50) 10
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> 1698410076 694443 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118434&oldid=118377 5* 03None1 5* (+28) 10/* My Implementations */
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> 1698414637 493950 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Huywall 5*  10New user account
< 1698416932 839124 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-6-160.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1698417468 338759 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-6-160.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: my opinion is that you could probably make it consistent, but I don't see that it gets you anything really interesting
< 1698417496 499996 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-6-160.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :5+9=14 except 5, 9, and 14 are categories and + is some special operation that takes pairs of categories and yields another category
< 1698417557 42857 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-6-160.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Other than forcing you to come up with the definition of + in this context that handles the extra structure
< 1698417638 840967 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-6-160.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :But then, I'm heavily biased away from category theory, so don't trust anything I say about it.
< 1698418145 903103 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-6-160.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :For that matter, don't trust anything I say about anything.
< 1698418479 368430 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1698418693 478452 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-6-160.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm trying to get my brain to do something productive but I'm having no luck.
< 1698419201 857574 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl PRIVMSG #esolangs :there seems to be no decent statement of the halting problem for lambda calculus online....
< 1698419307 456058 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl PRIVMSG #esolangs :but several wrong one, that ask if there is a function that given argument x will produce true or false depending on whether x has a normal form
< 1698419320 843853 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :try "weak normalization"
< 1698419378 79443 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(There's also solvability which is related and important for semantics (it characterizes non-bottom values) but quite different.)
< 1698419432 518120 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl PRIVMSG #esolangs :a decent statement would ask for a function that is given a *description* of a term, rather than just the term
< 1698419446 745447 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The "normalization" terminology is a bit overloaded though.
< 1698419485 567418 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :tromp: How's that different as long as you don't do infinitary lambda calculus?
< 1698419490 686390 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-6-160.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :The untyped lambda calculus isn't even weakly normalizing
< 1698419502 668860 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-6-160.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Some terms don't have a normal form
< 1698419537 817027 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you're just given the term, then the function would have to be strict, and obviously can't yield true or false when given omega
< 1698419569 916226 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl PRIVMSG #esolangs :but given a description of omega, it could at least recognize that
< 1698419581 87753 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: Those notions have a term-level meaning too. A term can be weakly normalizing and if you use left-most outermost reduction then that will reach a normal form.
< 1698419652 888356 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. here's a bad statement : https://boarders.github.io/posts/halting1.html
< 1698419702 479309 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well I think omega is non-terminating, even though it kind of never makes any progress when reducing it.
< 1698419705 913544 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-6-160.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Halting problem" feels like "There is no effective algorithm to say whether or not a given term has a normal form"
< 1698419729 862512 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl PRIVMSG #esolangs :but you must be given a *description* of the term
< 1698419752 998102 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh.
< 1698419772 137380 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sorry, I was focussed on defining halting.
< 1698419781 449167 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl PRIVMSG #esolangs :i noticed:)
< 1698419789 318197 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure, you need an encoding of terms to use them as inputs to something else.
> 1698419806 974516 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PaxtonPenguin/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118435&oldid=118417 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+16) 10
< 1698419821 516393 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl PRIVMSG #esolangs :but i couldn't find  any such proper statement of the lambda calculus halting problem
< 1698419831 339378 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-6-160.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Encoding TM's on TM tapes is old hat, encoding lambda terms in lambda terms is less well trodden
< 1698419845 474826 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which is the kind of thing computability theory is usually very sketchy on, because the details are interchangeable.
< 1698419871 647364 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Whether you use BLC-like lists of bools, or an actual tree type... they can be transcoded.
> 1698419933 687583 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PaxtonPenguin/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118436&oldid=118435 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+74) 10
< 1698419943 938103 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And yeah that definition is bad because it foregoes the encoding step.
> 1698419955 115856 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PaxtonPenguin/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118437&oldid=118436 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+4) 10
< 1698420004 37701 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-6-160.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've seen attempts to add quoting to the lambda calculus, and thought that I'm sure you can also do that with Church-type encodings of some kind, so the quoting doesn't really add anything except convenience.
< 1698420006 943039 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( Maybe the last person who was precise about encodings was Gödel. ;-) )
< 1698420041 758932 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I know that to be false but I think it makes a nice piece of shittalk)
> 1698420057 763044 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PaxtonPenguin/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118438&oldid=118437 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+80) 10
> 1698420152 588468 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PaxtonPenguin/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118439&oldid=118438 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+51) 10
> 1698420165 751817 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PaxtonPenguin/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118440&oldid=118439 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+2) 10
< 1698420183 431370 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :tromp: In any case, for you (and also me) BLC is the natural choice I think. You just have to decide whether to use bare lambda terms or the full convention with input.
< 1698420224 866050 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl PRIVMSG #esolangs :here's a proper proof of impossibility of halting  probnlem in lambda calcu;us:
< 1698420246 213369 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl PRIVMSG #esolangs :Denote by "T" some encoding of lambda term T,
< 1698420246 290464 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl PRIVMSG #esolangs :and let decode be a corresponding decoder, i.e.
< 1698420246 306517 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl PRIVMSG #esolangs :decode "T" = T
< 1698420246 319269 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl PRIVMSG #esolangs :Suppose there exist a lambda term hasNF which,
< 1698420246 325266 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl PRIVMSG #esolangs :when applied to "T" for some lambda term T,
< 1698420246 927124 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl PRIVMSG #esolangs :results in True when T has a normal form,
< 1698420247 5614 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl PRIVMSG #esolangs :and in False when T has none.
< 1698420247 931285 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl PRIVMSG #esolangs :Let P = \p. hasNF (decode p p) Omega Id
< 1698420248 4508 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl PRIVMSG #esolangs :P "P" = hasNF (int "P" "P") Omega Id
< 1698420248 936946 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl PRIVMSG #esolangs :      = hasNF (     P  "P") Omega Id
< 1698420248 971740 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl PRIVMSG #esolangs :      = Omega iff P "P" has a normal form
< 1698420249 927160 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl PRIVMSG #esolangs :Contradiction
< 1698420302 173377 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry for spamming:(
< 1698420304 532719 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( s/decode/uni/ )
< 1698420332 41633 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or int, I guess.
< 1698420341 538388 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah no
< 1698420411 406988 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :tromp: Per the previous discussion you should pass a description of P "P" to `hasNF`. So more of a hasNF (apply p (quote p))
> 1698420510 943729 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PaxtonPenguin/ExtremelyLongNameThatNoOneWillGuess14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118441 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+4) 10Created page with "Test"
< 1698420529 707089 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, right. thanks for noticing! this is subtle indeed
< 1698420532 389821 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
< 1698420910 327454 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm. Something like quote [] = "010110", quote (0:xs) = "01000010010110" ++ quote xs, quote (1:xs) = "010000100101110" ++ quote xs, and apply xs ys = "01" ++ xs ++ ys.
< 1698420932 31665 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :BLC is too simple ;-)
< 1698420980 827576 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The most likely mistake here is that I may have swapped the 0 and 1 in the input of quote)
< 1698421028 811164 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and of course those two digits are bools)
< 1698421149 154073 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :<cpressey> Other than forcing you to come up with the definition of + in this context that handles the extra structure => I think disjoint union suffices: objects(C + D) = objects(C) ⊔ objects(D); morphisms are copied as well. No new ones are added
< 1698421206 708810 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Err, and of course `apply` should be using "00" instead of "01". Tsk.
< 1698421298 982539 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :such a + should ideally satisfy the coproduct definition if taken to a suitable category of categories (e. g. Cat, of all small categories). Probably works for 2-categories and so on, I don’t see anything that needs to be added in those cases
< 1698421423 607402 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl PRIVMSG #esolangs :so my proof should have these lines instead:
< 1698421425 663976 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl PRIVMSG #esolangs :Given "T", we can compute the encoding of T applied to "T", denoted "T "T" ".
< 1698421431 483194 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl PRIVMSG #esolangs :Let P "T" = hasNF "T "T" " Omega Id
< 1698421599 283675 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( ⌜T ⌜T⌝⌝ )
< 1698421646 181156 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-6-160.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: I'm slightly suspicious of this "disjoint union" of which you speak.  But I don't remember my reasons for that suspicion.  Anyway, what you say seems plausible.
< 1698421655 333149 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sadly that looks ugly in the fixed font. But that notation can actually be nested :)
< 1698421792 591000 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: I think what I saw denoted as 0, 1, 2, 3, … somewhere was indeed discrete categories. Though one could easily see why ordinals as preorder categories can be useful to many people. This is essentially cardinal arithmetic vs. ordinal arithmetic, I suspect at 95%
< 1698421887 213733 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: I’d be interested to know if you remember what it was!
< 1698421910 302004 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :btw I think disjoint union doesn’t have enough love in math popularization and even just in some math courses
< 1698421950 125362 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it’s always cartesian this cartesian that
< 1698421984 236953 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( Do they also give out cartesian hats? )
< 1698422005 69069 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also I embraced universal properties with all my heart when I finally started cracking them one after another
< 1698422026 660350 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-6-160.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: something about how algebraic data types are a luxury; you can do it all with pairs and Either; and Either could be replaced by Kuratowski pairs...?
< 1698422127 82448 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-6-160.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Of course I guess disjoint union is disjoint union even if you do it with something like Kuratowski pairs
< 1698422162 975106 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: in lambda calculus, sure it all can be encoded, by Scott, some other guy or them jointly, I forget which way is which but it differs in what we recurse to
< 1698422181 777233 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean more generally, it has so much use in e. g. even examples of structures
< 1698422237 108146 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-6-160.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wikipedia is making me think there is no such thing as a Kuratowski pair now.  Have I got the name wrong or have I ASCII-ized the letters in it or something
< 1698422278 620002 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anecdote: I think I even saw disjoint union in disguise, encoded in its usual way via (0, x) and (1, x), with no calling it by its name. I guess that can be warranted if one doesn’t want to add distractions to the reader but still
< 1698422296 160096 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-6-160.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh I was accidentally searching wiktionary.  OK then!
< 1698422313 451462 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: it should be. At first I didn’t remember about them but then I remembered it’s {{x}, {x, y}}
< 1698422339 59663 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :initially I thought it somehow relates to λ heehee
< 1698422559 993713 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-6-160.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess my suspicion was more about tags -- was trying to see if it's possible to escape that concept.  0 and 1 would still be tags.  Kuratowski pair isn't quite right, but it's close.  Something like {x} and {{x}}, with the union being {x, {x}}?  The "tag" is still there I guess, it's just represented by an extra level of nesting
< 1698422786 357459 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-6-160.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1698423278 965034 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: yeah, I don’t know any representation with no tags, that is if we define disjoint union by concrete implementation
< 1698423304 259321 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and don’t have any equivalent concept before that
< 1698423355 555458 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like Either and algebraic data types you mentioned
< 1698423775 417879 :sprout_!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-c48d-b712-9bab-12f5.fixed6.kpn.net JOIN #esolangs * :sprout
< 1698423822 376669 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one can say implementation with tags is due to A + A ≅ 2 × A and similar equations. Though that requires union to be here because otherwise we can’t inject different operands of + into the same A on rhs not having disjoint union beforehand. So I guess that’s why type theories tend to have disjoint union as a primitive (or algebraic types or inductive types)
< 1698423866 37346 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because union as a primitive might not be ideal
< 1698423992 582728 :sprout!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-a140-dd2-1bda-8a59.fixed6.kpn.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1698424095 465075 :sprout_!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-c48d-b712-9bab-12f5.fixed6.kpn.net NICK :sprout
< 1698424130 951797 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because union has universal property based on subtyping A <: B and not functions A → B, in a type system with no explicit subtyping involved, especially no user-definable one, it’s somewhat unhinged; that’s how I get it
< 1698424158 4856 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :disjoint union has the same property but wrt A → B
< 1698424186 523491 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( set theory with subtyping )
< 1698424199 756259 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm wait it’s the usual one probably
> 1698424414 606721 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wise14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118442&oldid=118330 5* 03DivergentClouds 5* (+119) 10changed branching operators to only check <code>C</code> digits
> 1698425536 21937 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Philiquaz 5*  10New user account
> 1698425820 203583 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118443&oldid=118410 5* 03Philiquaz 5* (+179) 10
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> 1698431958 655472 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07A-SCP-M14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118445 5* 03Philiquaz 5* (+6013) 10Created page with "'''A-SCP-M''' is an assembly language in the same vein as the SCP project. As a result, it must be contained to being an esoteric joke language, and must not under any circumstances actually be implemented or used. If you feel the vague urge to implement it, or you se
< 1698432935 834123 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :“algebraic data types are a luxury; you can do it all with pairs and Either” => standard ML goes halfway there: you can define your own algebraic data types, that gives you a disjoint union, but each variant constructor can take only zero or one arguments, so you need tuples to make a product
< 1698432971 215904 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though I might be misremembering this
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> 1698434004 257879 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07A-SCP-M14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118446&oldid=118445 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+52) 10Categories
> 1698434131 983362 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118447&oldid=118375 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+14) 10/* A */ add
< 1698438401 641189 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yeah I saw that in code though haven’t read exactly ML docs/definitions. I think each constructor takes exactly one argument and you use `unit` (IIRC) in case there are effectively none, like Haskell’s ()
< 1698438429 557991 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :having 0 or 1 looks unsystematic enough to be eschewed
< 1698438437 736713 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :than having 1
< 1698438724 421947 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: might be unsysthematic but no argument constructor is real, see the fieldnum type in view-source:http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/olvashato/aknakereso.sml for exmaple
< 1698438774 127248 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: quirky. Then I don’t know how it happened to ML
< 1698438837 279870 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but of course that doesn't prove that there aren't curry-style multi-argument constructors too, even if I don't have them in my code
< 1698438938 822526 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though in all examples I have seen in articles and such, I never encountered that either
< 1698439001 102432 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it looks like a feature of ML languages but maybe some of them added syntax?
< 1698439170 125972 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Quit: gone too far
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< 1698455049 158288 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1698459694 468707 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
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> 1698470878 100863 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fetus14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118448&oldid=116274 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+9) 10Stub
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< 1698500201 796649 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1698500360 664864 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Technical restrictions 5*  10New user account
> 1698500727 135992 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118449&oldid=118444 5* 03Technical restrictions 5* (+412) 10
< 1698500771 707531 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1698500847 838038 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-6-160.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
< 1698502015 890727 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1698502470 313858 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Excess Flood
< 1698503631 835966 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-6-160.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1698504524 846127 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-6-160.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs cpressey :[https://web.libera.chat] cpressey
> 1698504625 872012 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03CodeSpoof 5*  10New user account
< 1698504803 740659 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-6-160.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :<arseniiv> btw I think disjoint union doesn’t have enough love in math popularization and even just in some math courses <--- I agree, fwiw: disjoint union is underrated.  My reservations about it aren't serious ones.
< 1698504976 288197 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-6-160.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Some problem spaces seem to lead towards (AND, OR), others seem to have a better fit with (AND, XOR), but don't make me explain what I mean by that
> 1698505007 567511 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118450&oldid=118449 5* 03CodeSpoof 5* (+178) 10
< 1698505421 445867 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1698506665 873978 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Quit: Go back to your cringe 9 to 5. I'll be gaming.
< 1698507850 673603 :cpressey!~cpressey@host-80-47-6-160.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1698509585 472215 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1698510231 261777 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1698511305 866152 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1698511395 937847 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Excess Flood
< 1698511576 642260 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1698511594 178233 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1698512236 883790 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1698512503 263491 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1698512861 796956 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Excess Flood
< 1698512943 453747 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1698513504 958611 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1698514070 475913 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1698515166 601445 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:3 Bits, 3 Bytes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118451&oldid=118371 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+512) 10/* Longest running program */ new section
> 1698515175 390315 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:3 Bits, 3 Bytes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118452&oldid=118451 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+1) 10/* Longest running program */
> 1698515198 836436 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:3 Bits, 3 Bytes14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118453&oldid=118452 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+11) 10i should have used Show preview
> 1698516567 647617 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:3 Bits, 3 Bytes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118454&oldid=118453 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+5197) 10/* Longest running program */ 73 instructions
< 1698516596 7331 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1698519321 834805 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1698519335 809078 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1698519648 291198 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Trigational Pseudoomninumitype14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118455&oldid=118422 5* 03CreeperBomb 5* (+728) 10
> 1698519717 904014 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[074 bits, 8 bytes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118456&oldid=118386 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+3) 10/* Quine */ I hadn't realized space wasn't a valid character and the interpreter was silently ignoring it. This modification terminates (unlike the _ replacement)
< 1698519744 602118 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1698519817 442515 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1698520101 39089 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1698520115 444990 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1698520622 724229 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AI-Generated Esolang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118457&oldid=111094 5* 03CreeperBomb 5* (+17) 10
< 1698521205 942718 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :<cpressey> but don't make me explain what I mean by that => I guess I feel in a way what you had in mind
< 1698521294 540574 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like even boolean algebras being semirings under (or, and) but also truly rings over (xor, and), and both structures are used
< 1698521682 880405 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Quit: gone too far
> 1698523430 261036 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:A-SCP-M14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118458 5* 03CreeperBomb 5* (+435) 10Created page with "==Compiler== I made a compiler that takes in a program from the user and converts it into another language: https://xcreeperbombx.github.io/A-SCP-M%20compiler.html ~~~~"
< 1698525227 771694 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1698527584 811054 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1698528286 951581 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1698528710 658245 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Too14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118459&oldid=107968 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+200) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the Too programming language on GitHub and supplemented two page category tags.
> 1698529253 642452 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Too14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118460&oldid=118459 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+691) 10Reformulated and reformatted the documentation and amended a few orthographic mistakes.
> 1698529567 909270 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Too14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118461&oldid=118460 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+370) 10Introduced an examples section comprehending two initial members.
< 1698534390 3565 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1698534414 440961 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1698534818 218429 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1698534818 769122 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1698535139 835390 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1698535212 523472 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1698539500 457830 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BFBASIC14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118462&oldid=112419 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+9) 10Stub
> 1698541263 198346 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mirror-machine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118463&oldid=113051 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+105) 10Fix pseudocode
< 1698541429 524164 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1698541553 594836 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1698542010 271122 :awewsomegamer!~awewsomeg@S0106484bd46b6d3d.vn.shawcable.net JOIN #esolangs * :awewsomegamer
< 1698544217 65588 :awewsomegamer!~awewsomeg@S0106484bd46b6d3d.vn.shawcable.net QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 4.1.0
> 1698545181 183821 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Wonkanese 5*  10New user account
< 1698545427 293833 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1698545456 472942 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Client Quit
> 1698547163 640507 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118464&oldid=118450 5* 03Wonkanese 5* (+246) 10/* Introductions */
< 1698557297 438688 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :But categories can be, in addition to addition (which would be the disjoint union like you mentioned), there can also be multiplication, and exponentiation (X to the power of Y is the category of functors of Y to X and the natural transformations between them). I think if you use the discrete categories like natural numbers then these work like ordinary addition, multiplication, exponentiation, even if a non-discrete by a discrete cate
< 1698562828 363007 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1698562843 958732 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Client Quit
< 1698564018 471190 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1698565941 491298 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
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< 1698570079 670116 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1698570235 815708 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1698571569 107942 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1698571635 740918 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie
< 1698572009 370536 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1698572164 185015 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:3 Bits, 3 Bytes14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118465&oldid=118454 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+8) 10/* Longest running program */
< 1698573690 193143 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1698578059 128297 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1698578790 345211 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
< 1698581192 510763 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
> 1698582091 535900 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03NameGoesThere 5*  10New user account
> 1698582213 172169 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118466&oldid=118464 5* 03NameGoesThere 5* (+157) 10/* Introductions */
< 1698582815 519705 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1698582844 273500 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1698582923 878128 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Carriage14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118467&oldid=46418 5* 03Pro465 5* (+298) 10/* Concatenativeness */ very late question
< 1698583121 953537 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1698584154 511822 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1698585854 54983 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
> 1698586010 956682 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:3 Bits, 3 Bytes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118468&oldid=118465 5* 03None1 5* (+88) 10/* Longest running program */
> 1698586755 516158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:3 Bits, 3 Bytes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118469&oldid=118468 5* 03None1 5* (+83) 10/* Longest running program */
> 1698586938 947673 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:3 Bits, 3 Bytes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118470&oldid=118469 5* 03None1 5* (+124) 10/* Longest running program */
> 1698587087 238213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:3 Bits, 3 Bytes14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118471&oldid=118470 5* 03None1 5* (+1) 10/* Longest running program */
> 1698587490 867515 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CFUCK14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118472&oldid=56948 5* 03None1 5* (+28) 10
> 1698587612 709152 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07B sharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118473&oldid=117919 5* 03None1 5* (+11) 10
< 1698588010 276463 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Excess Flood
< 1698588026 814856 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
> 1698588353 859221 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CFuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118474 5* 03None1 5* (+1289) 10Created page with "CFuck is, like its name, a C extension to [[brainfuck]]. It is invented by [[User:None1]]. ==Data structure== It also has a byte queue. ==Commands== All the original commands are the same, but there are extra commands: {| class="wikitable" |+ Extra commands |- ! Command !! 
> 1698588549 767867 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118475&oldid=118474 5* 03None1 5* (+420) 10
> 1698588593 149843 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118476&oldid=118475 5* 03None1 5* (-3) 10
> 1698588614 972991 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CFuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118477&oldid=118476 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10
> 1698588645 357173 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118478&oldid=118434 5* 03None1 5* (+47) 10/* My Esolangs */
> 1698588681 683433 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118479&oldid=118447 5* 03None1 5* (+12) 10/* C */
> 1698588937 865448 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118480&oldid=118477 5* 03None1 5* (+171) 10
< 1698592653 988807 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1698595140 345985 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1698596551 624772 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1698597719 415849 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1698602892 137796 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The notation for a functor category is already like that, anyways, I think.)
< 1698604668 872789 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1698604692 991008 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Quit: gone too far
> 1698607439 695468 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainwang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118481&oldid=54954 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+23) 10Category
< 1698608179 809353 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1698609368 25379 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1698609442 426477 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1698610445 810834 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: Who killed the dead end?
< 1698610446 16825 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: with that, i will. my hon. and learned friend the minister for what he is doing.
< 1698610476 46753 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: that was underwhelming, can you try again?
< 1698610476 690182 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: of the data, and the right, deal, across kent, and the right, deal and no deal, will the minister work to overturn the will, respect the 62% who his counterparts in the eu.
< 1698610496 767586 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(much better)
< 1698610526 389755 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`"
< 1698610529 161972 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :1/1:1262) <coca-cola> bite the wax tadpole \ 157) <ais523> fizzie: 50kB is quite a lot
< 1698613531 834592 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Europe2048
< 1698613549 206427 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi everyone!
> 1698616691 992526 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cammy/Consistency14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118482 5* 03Corbin 5* (+2599) 10Build out a basic notion of consistency for Cammy. (Part 1: prose)
> 1698617301 900944 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Quito056714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118483&oldid=118304 5* 03Quito0567 5* (+26) 10
< 1698617587 342088 :Europe2048!~Europe204@fableness-hydrant.volia.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1698618379 71736 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1698619990 714918 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cammy/Consistency14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118484&oldid=118482 5* 03Corbin 5* (+2610) 10Part 2: The details. Some details have been left as exercises.
> 1698620111 321477 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CFuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118485&oldid=118480 5* 03None1 5* (+1) 10/* Message box */
> 1698620145 245699 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cammy/Consistency14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118486&oldid=118484 5* 03Corbin 5* (-53) 10Improve readability, maybe.
< 1698627872 511533 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1698627874 573557 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1698627956 611801 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1698629251 457947 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:ProfNinja14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118487&oldid=104449 5* 03ProfNinja 5* (+37) 10
> 1698630550 603493 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Blue Hens14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118488 5* 03ProfNinja 5* (+7993) 10Blue Hens Language
> 1698630623 700386 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Blue Hens14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118489&oldid=118488 5* 03ProfNinja 5* (-34) 10/* The OPCODEs */
> 1698630753 621082 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Blue Hens14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118490&oldid=118489 5* 03ProfNinja 5* (-133) 10/* Classification */
> 1698630794 623217 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Blue Hens14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118491&oldid=118490 5* 03ProfNinja 5* (-32) 10
> 1698633610 810926 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Brodyfmaddox 5*  10New user account
> 1698633948 258864 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118492&oldid=118466 5* 03Brodyfmaddox 5* (+167) 10/* Introductions */
> 1698634031 614776 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118493&oldid=118492 5* 03Brodyfmaddox 5* (+98) 10/* Introductions */
> 1698636029 228268 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118494&oldid=118479 5* 03ProfNinja 5* (+16) 10/* B */
< 1698643191 219316 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
< 1698646147 459749 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1698647833 898002 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1698649651 987805 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1698650344 262055 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Whitespace14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118495&oldid=111183 5* 03HaleyHalcyon 5* (+2080) 10visible whitespace
< 1698651256 36861 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1698652183 173820 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
< 1698653799 417654 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot, is a "weatherspoon" the propeller thing under a weathercock that spins to show how fast the wind is?
< 1698653800 13312 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: my hon., and the other, and, noting the work to the cheaper. shifting the cost. it is not. that is the only way, of the brexit for which the hon. and learned friend the minister for what he is doing.
< 1698653816 593014 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I should have asked someone other than a politician for this
> 1698653991 441970 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:HaleyHalcyon14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118496&oldid=83181 5* 03HaleyHalcyon 5* (+4526) 10
< 1698654802 165471 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1698658183 43492 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1698658288 235418 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
< 1698660202 294977 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1698660227 443142 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
> 1698660262 61684 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:3 Bits, 3 Bytes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118497&oldid=118471 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+12217) 10
> 1698660516 941660 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:3 Bits, 3 Bytes14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118498&oldid=118497 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+1188) 10i have not learned
> 1698662683 437953 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:3 Bits, 3 Bytes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118499&oldid=118498 5* 03None1 5* (+146) 10
> 1698662700 861142 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:3 Bits, 3 Bytes14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118500&oldid=118499 5* 03None1 5* (+1) 10/* Longest running program */
< 1698663455 384033 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1698663480 383867 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
> 1698666054 606739 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/ToDo14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118501&oldid=117560 5* 03None1 5* (+63) 10/* Content */
> 1698666072 105805 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/ToDo14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118502&oldid=118501 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* Content */
> 1698669403 577131 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Whitespace14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118503&oldid=118495 5* 03None1 5* (+227) 10/* Question */ new section
< 1698671062 61687 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1698671086 181052 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
< 1698671559 112975 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1698672057 403388 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
> 1698672804 968647 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PaxtonPenguin/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118504&oldid=118440 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+62) 10
> 1698673412 844212 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[074est14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118505&oldid=111089 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+1) 10Added missing period to calculator
< 1698673573 593335 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1698673598 690753 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
> 1698673938 152785 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[074est14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118506&oldid=118505 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+842) 10Clarified some things, added compound ordinals where simple numbers are required
< 1698674651 598818 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1698675441 828826 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118507&oldid=117322 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+5) 10Fixed vertical bar formatting problem for bitwise NOR
< 1698676435 307045 :Everything!~Everythin@static.208.206.21.65.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1698676477 986414 :Everything!~Everythin@static.208.206.21.65.clients.your-server.de JOIN #esolangs * :Everything
< 1698676601 15153 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw JOIN #esolangs razetime :realname
< 1698677465 220625 :razetime!~razetime@sd202148.hung.ab.nthu.edu.tw QUIT :Quit: Go back to your cringe 9 to 5. I'll be gaming.
> 1698677794 65465 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Olie 5*  10New user account
> 1698678216 713921 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118508&oldid=118493 5* 03Olie 5* (+164) 10Meow~
> 1698678225 586287 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07///14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118509&oldid=105549 5* 03Olie 5* (+196) 10added a shorter Unary->decimal converter (i've not experimented much with this idea, it may be possible to shorten it even more
< 1698678540 406570 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1698679034 133879 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118510&oldid=76687 5* 03EvyLah 5* (+153) 10/* How do I add an esolang? */ new section
> 1698679073 416961 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:EvyLah14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118511 5* 03EvyLah 5* (+45) 10Created page with "== talk == make a subheading or something idk"
< 1698680176 296215 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving
> 1698680579 946076 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118512&oldid=118510 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+279) 10/* How do I add an esolang? */
> 1698681128 870111 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Whitespace14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118513&oldid=118503 5* 03HaleyHalcyon 5* (+687) 10/* Question */
< 1698681774 790874 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
< 1698681894 170888 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Client Quit
> 1698682047 638450 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Danicb14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118514&oldid=109123 5* 03Squidmanescape 5* (+297) 10/* Example Code */
> 1698682059 898647 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Whitespace14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118515&oldid=118513 5* 03HaleyHalcyon 5* (+1083) 10/* Question */
> 1698682105 630666 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Danicb14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118516&oldid=118514 5* 03Squidmanescape 5* (-70) 10/* Cat Program */
> 1698682513 571489 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:HaleyHalcyon14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118517&oldid=118496 5* 03HaleyHalcyon 5* (+94) 10/* Commands */
> 1698682997 702703 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:HaleyHalcyon14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118518&oldid=118517 5* 03HaleyHalcyon 5* (+356) 10/* Visible Whitespace (draft) */
< 1698684178 508742 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1698685312 745511 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1698685955 824012 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1698687073 70357 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PaxtonPenguin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118519&oldid=118418 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+17) 10
> 1698687108 629522 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Punktuation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118520&oldid=118400 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (-6) 10
> 1698687122 706453 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Punktuation14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118521&oldid=118520 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+6) 10
> 1698687141 122429 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Punktuation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118522&oldid=118521 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (-2) 10
> 1698687156 31600 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Punktuation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118523&oldid=118522 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (-2) 10
> 1698687171 405477 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Punktuation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118524&oldid=118523 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+0) 10
> 1698687499 942501 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Punktuation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118525&oldid=118524 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+169) 10
< 1698687781 139541 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
> 1698687849 718236 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Punktuation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118526&oldid=118525 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+344) 10
> 1698687929 219998 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Punktuation14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118527&oldid=118526 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+42) 10Whats the 2d category
> 1698687965 990609 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Punktuation14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118528&oldid=118527 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (-30) 10
< 1698689199 252980 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1698689483 908414 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118529&oldid=117649 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+8) 10
> 1698689496 187285 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118530&oldid=118529 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+4) 10
> 1698689516 316308 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118531&oldid=118530 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-3) 10
< 1698689635 558795 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1698690340 580002 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GangLang14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118532 5* 03Wonkanese 5* (+3111) 10Created page with "'''GangLang''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] by Wonkanese, is a simple programming language in which the keywords are gang terms or gang related.  ==Language overview==  GangLang can be written and ran on https://wonkanese.github.io/GangLang/  GangLang is a
> 1698690640 870536 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118533&oldid=118494 5* 03Wonkanese 5* (+15) 10/* G */
< 1698691706 637796 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1698692408 32903 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 4.0.5
< 1698692432 578270 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
< 1698692488 314061 :riv!river@tilde.team/user/river JOIN #esolangs river :My real name
< 1698692496 524149 :riv!river@tilde.team/user/river NICK :river
< 1698693944 873137 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Quit: gone too far
< 1698702075 37226 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm hmm. Another shapez puzzle mystery... https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-jyyg.png (I can cheese this to solve the puzzle, but is there a solution that keeps producing the shape?)
< 1698702199 426295 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And unfortunately I've seen a few puzzles that I'm 99% sure only have a cheesy solution (where you buffer some intermediate products and then reconfigure the buildings to finish off the level) so I'm never sure...
< 1698702429 776513 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(This is only a problem once you're past the most popular "hard" puzzles... most, maybe all, of the easy and medium difficulty puzzles are fine.)
> 1698702757 801607 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pepp*erdine14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118534 5* 03Brodyfmaddox 5* (+3794) 10Wrote Page
< 1698702759 301975 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving
> 1698702883 120977 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118535&oldid=118533 5* 03Brodyfmaddox 5* (+18) 10/* P */
< 1698703293 415132 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I don't undesrstand, how does that stacker building help at all, if its output goes right into an unmovable wall?
< 1698703340 825329 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it doesn't
< 1698703680 282426 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: that's how far I got without cheesing. The cheese goes something like this: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-jyyg-cheese1.png (I had a trash can at the cutter before that) and then this: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-jyyg-cheese2.png
< 1698703712 66034 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(It turns out that three splitters hold enough items to finish a level.)
< 1698703758 924979 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And it's so unsatisfying to do that and never be sure whether there's a proper solution.
< 1698703856 186045 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I *did* try to use two cutters (plus a rotator) instead of one but couldn't make it fit.)
< 1698705224 242927 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1698705325 859401 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03MihaiEso 5*  10New user account
> 1698705434 627845 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118536&oldid=118508 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+172) 10
> 1698705705 559192 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118537&oldid=118535 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+14) 10
> 1698706479 635764 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Punktuation14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118538&oldid=118528 5* 03None1 5* (+39) 10
< 1698707532 133933 :pikhq_!sid394595@user/pikhq JOIN #esolangs pikhq :Ada Worcester
< 1698707681 523200 :riv!river@tilde.team/user/river JOIN #esolangs river :My real name
< 1698707681 865836 :slavfox_!~slavfox@93.158.232.111 JOIN #esolangs slavfox :slavfox
< 1698707723 146737 :pikhq!sid394595@user/pikhq QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1698707723 313425 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1698707724 32799 :slavfox!~slavfox@93.158.232.111 QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in
< 1698707726 421563 :pikhq_!sid394595@user/pikhq NICK :pikhq
< 1698707729 923571 :slavfox_!~slavfox@93.158.232.111 NICK :slavfox
> 1698710619 239977 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck implementations14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118539&oldid=116006 5* 03Mayedl10 5* (+137) 10/* Normal implementations */
> 1698711925 830715 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07!English14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118540 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+5199) 10Maked my own esolang based on English syntax!
> 1698711954 942469 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118541&oldid=118537 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+15) 10
> 1698711994 254251 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07!English14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118542&oldid=118540 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+13) 10/* Quine */ Oops, used code syntax for code.
> 1698712027 264737 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07!English14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118543&oldid=118542 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+13) 10/* Shell */ Still a bug in my brain, fixed, used the code syntax for code.
< 1698712220 567434 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1698714204 522676 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1698714338 843455 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1698714599 60973 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1698723588 37127 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org NICK :Hoolooboo
> 1698723611 720873 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:MihaiEso14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118544 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+422) 10Created page with "Hi! This is a userpage of me, Mihai Popa, age ~13!  Hi! I really like esolangs, and I can create one!  The esolang I created is called "!English" and available on this link: [[!English]]  Is like ~English (Not English) and [[English]] in syntax, but it's like Engl
> 1698723644 150490 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:MihaiEso14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118545 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+93) 10Created page with "== Welcome! ==  Hi! This is my talk page! You can write on this section, or on a new section!"
> 1698723773 987448 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:MihaiEso/Sandbox14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118546 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+264) 10Created page with "This ''is'' a '''sandbox'''!  You can have fun trying with edits on this page. Even the keylogger, written in Python, can capture ALL the keystrokes I pressed and hackers and even me (for useful text, like search queries and written text) can view what's c
> 1698730224 222863 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Punktuation14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118547&oldid=118538 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+25) 10Category
< 1698733363 918121 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1698733389 600309 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
< 1698735542 274062 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-002-200-068-007.002.200.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1698736194 831590 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1698736688 537648 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1698736703 582928 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
< 1698739478 915091 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1698739860 11714 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :maeve (she/her)
< 1698740093 400277 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1698741630 872724 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org JOIN #esolangs leah2 :Leah Neukirchen
< 1698743162 453763 :Hoolooboo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1698743209 438472 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org JOIN #esolangs hooloovoo :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1698745274 863347 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e0a:2a7:97a0:2055:6b1c:42e9:fbe0 JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
> 1698747692 333851 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Whitespace14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118548&oldid=118515 5* 03None1 5* (+127) 10/* Question */
> 1698747711 322077 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:HaleyHalcyon14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118549&oldid=118518 5* 03HaleyHalcyon 5* (+75) 10/* Commands */
> 1698751218 227587 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07^14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118550 5* 03None1 5* (+545) 10Created page with "^ is an esolang by [[User:None1]]. It is the smallest esolang that is impossible to solve the [[halting problem]]. ==Commands== The only command  ^ performs an infinite loop if this program halts  otherwise it does nothing. ==Uncomputability proof== If this esolang in computable
> 1698751308 455995 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118551&oldid=118541 5* 03None1 5* (+8) 10/* Non-alphabetic */  Add new esolang
> 1698751451 668711 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118552&oldid=118478 5* 03None1 5* (+53) 10/* My Esolangs */
> 1698752062 205399 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07^14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118553&oldid=118550 5* 03None1 5* (+10) 10/* Interpreter */
< 1698752451 378109 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
> 1698755181 306064 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Defined behvaior14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118554 5* 03None1 5* (+898) 10Created page with "'''Defined behavior''' is the opposite of [[Undefined behavior (language)]], and it is also inspired by [[Undefined behavior (language)]]. This esolang is invented by [[User:None1]].  The behavior in this esolang is defined, but determined by the implementation, t
> 1698755315 120086 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118555&oldid=118349 5* 03None1 5* (+77) 10/* General languages */
> 1698755334 93212 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118556&oldid=118552 5* 03None1 5* (+77) 10/* My Esolangs */
> 1698755381 882231 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03None1 5*  10moved [[02Defined behvaior10]] to [[Defined behavior]]: typo
< 1698755825 313990 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e0a:2a7:97a0:2055:6b1c:42e9:fbe0 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1698757757 649798 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118559&oldid=118556 5* 03None1 5* (+79) 10/* My Accounts */
< 1698758060 366596 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e0a:2a7:97a0:e188:997f:62d7:6867 JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
< 1698758086 355630 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1698759744 547870 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e0a:2a7:97a0:e188:997f:62d7:6867 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1698759828 628568 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e0a:2a7:97a0:c836:c51e:9483:bd59 JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
< 1698760121 596069 :Koen!~Koen@2a01:e0a:2a7:97a0:c836:c51e:9483:bd59 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1698761187 325799 :Koen!~Koen@91-170-158-94.subs.proxad.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
> 1698761280 182721 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07!English14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118560&oldid=118543 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (-28) 10Oops, changed the command.
> 1698761446 584636 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:MihaiEso14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118561&oldid=118544 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (-10) 10Fixed grammar.
> 1698761574 90710 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07English14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118562&oldid=116562 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+96) 10Added a line about not to be confusing with "!English", which also bases on English syntax.
< 1698762471 951026 :Koen!~Koen@91-170-158-94.subs.proxad.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1698762887 656353 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1698764966 307802 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1698766464 375340 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1698766622 158350 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :in HTML, does it have some specific meaning when an a tag has a rel attribute with no value, like <a href="https://example.com" rel> , or is this just some weird thing that Wordpress or some of its plugins emits?
< 1698766640 751900 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean it's probably harmless, I just saw it by accident and find it weird
< 1698766891 340180 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1698768357 85448 :Thelie!~Thelie@tmo-101-8.customers.d1-online.com JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie
> 1698769041 307821 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PaxtonPenguin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118563&oldid=118519 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+87) 10
> 1698769112 563320 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PaxtonPenguin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118564&oldid=118391 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+7) 10
> 1698769123 973492 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PaxtonPenguin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118565&oldid=118564 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+1) 10
> 1698771070 141304 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pep & Chz14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118566 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+273) 10Created page with "{{bf}} Pep & Chz is a brainflakes version that includes the names of my stuffed penguins  {| class="wikitable" |+  |- ! Pep & Chz !! Brian |- | peep || + |- | chaz || - |- | rebeca || > |- | petey || < |- | peeper || [ |- | twins || ] |- | gery || . |- | cristal 
> 1698771194 347354 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pep & Chz14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118567&oldid=118566 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+59) 10
< 1698771203 885858 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: I think I agree with your assessment here
> 1698771221 41472 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pep & Chz14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118568&oldid=118567 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+0) 10
< 1698771279 114918 :Thelie!~Thelie@tmo-101-8.customers.d1-online.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
> 1698771325 589527 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Punktuation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118569&oldid=118547 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+78) 10
> 1698771631 243095 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PaxtonPenguin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118570&oldid=118563 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+15) 10
< 1698771707 358032 :Thelie!~Thelie@185.66.193.31 JOIN #esolangs * :Thelie
< 1698772685 173562 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-002-200-068-007.002.200.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN #esolangs Melvar :melvar
< 1698772779 455436 :Thelie!~Thelie@185.66.193.31 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1698772803 364810 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.213.213.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1698772913 564713 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1698773030 254422 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1698773733 371019 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1698774271 176837 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Punktuation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118571&oldid=118569 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+128) 10
> 1698774306 184795 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Punktuation14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118572&oldid=118571 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+1) 10
< 1698776029 967008 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1698776209 657995 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1698776226 808584 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1698776432 162630 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1698780632 312836 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GangLang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118573&oldid=118532 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+208) 10Wikitext, categories
< 1698780787 450306 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.149.238.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN #esolangs arseniiv :the chaotic arseniiv
> 1698780834 44354 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07English14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118574&oldid=118562 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+1) 10
< 1698780844 365045 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.149.238.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Client Quit
< 1698780945 551087 :SGautam!uid286066@id-286066.ilkley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs SGautam :Siddharth Gautam
< 1698780981 597416 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@188.64.15.98 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1698781215 512284 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GP14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118575 5* 03Slendi 5* (+1481) 10Initial creation of the page
> 1698782426 199385 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PaxtonPenguin/Temp14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118576 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+208) 10Created page with "This is used for find and replace, for different things  ([[[[[[[[[<)[[[[[[[[(]>),([[[[[[<)[[[[[(]>)],[[[[[[[,,[[[,(( [[[[[[[<)[[[[[[(]>)[[,]]]]]]]]]]]],)[[[[[[[[,]]]]]]]],[[[,]]]]]],]]]]]]]], ([,([[[[[[[[,"
> 1698782537 475302 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Arraything14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118577&oldid=118395 5* 03PaxtonPenguin 5* (+245) 10
< 1698789314 39183 :SGautam!uid286066@id-286066.ilkley.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1698789768 125036 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1698789859 932144 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.28.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Taneb: I was wrong in one part though: the webpage isn't actually based on Wordpress
< 1698791458 917173 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1698792425 757030 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GangLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118578&oldid=118573 5* 03Wonkanese 5* (+443) 10
> 1698793327 22077 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dead fish14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118579&oldid=116898 5* 03None1 5* (+16) 10/* C++ */
> 1698794028 591274 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Blue Hens14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118580&oldid=118491 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+27) 10/* Classification */ Category
< 1698795553 833515 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving
> 1698796107 836356 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03H3h3h0h0 5*  10New user account
> 1698796348 192882 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118581&oldid=118536 5* 03H3h3h0h0 5* (+182) 10/* Introductions */