00:41:44 <esolangs> [[Vroom]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118947 * Rignchen * (+4053) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Vroom |author=Rignchen |year=[[:Category:2023|2023]] |memsys=stack |dimensions=[[:Category:Multi-dimensional_languages|Three-dimensional languages]] |class=[[:Category:Turing complete|Turing complete]] |refimpl=[https://github.com/Rignchen/Vroom_
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05:27:22 <esolangs> [[Vroom]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118948&oldid=118947 * CreeperBomb * (+46) Edited punctuation, diction, and grammar/spelling
05:30:37 <esolangs> [[Imperator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118949&oldid=118203 * CreeperBomb * (+12) /* Syntax */
05:34:33 <esolangs> [[User:CreeperBomb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118950&oldid=116944 * CreeperBomb * (+13)
05:35:03 <zzo38_> If you have a set of i.i.d. random variables, and you have the probability distribution of one of them, what is the resulting probability distribution of one of them once the random variables have been sorted, and how to calculate it from the arbitrary starting probability distribution and how many they are?
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05:38:21 <zzo38_> (For example, if the probability distribution is zero 50% of the time and one 50% of the time, and there is two of them, then the probability distribution of the lowest one is zero 75% of the time and one 25% of the time. But, that is a simple case and is easy to calculate, since there is only two i.i.d. random variables.)
05:39:11 <zzo38_> (Is there a simple way to do more generally, e.g. if you roll 4d6 drop lowest ten times, what is the probability distribution of the second highest result? That is just an example, of course.)
05:45:50 <b_jonas> zzo38_: I think if the distribution of each variable has a continuous PDF of f(x) = P(X<x), and you have n of these that you sort than the one at position k will have a PDF of q_k(x) = f(x)↑(n-k) * (1-f(x))↑k * binom(n,k). if the distribution (i.e. its PDF) isn't continuous then I think it gets somewhat more complicated beacuse of ties.
05:50:08 <b_jonas> Beta nonsense, I don't think I really understand hnw it works.
05:50:38 <b_jonas> which is sad because I'm probably the one on this channel who should.
05:57:46 <b_jonas> zzo38: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_statistic may be relevant
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08:18:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:Whitespace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118951&oldid=118548 * HaleyHalcyon * (+260) /* I made a Python thing to make it easier to edit Whitespace code */
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09:42:13 <int-e> what a bothersome question... apparently
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10:34:30 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * LTHCTheMaster * New user account
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10:40:06 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118952&oldid=118879 * LTHCTheMaster * (+328)
10:40:57 <example99> btw i use 'elite' theme a darkmode that i loooooooove
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11:04:04 <esolangs> [[Vroom]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118953&oldid=118948 * Rignchen * (+0)
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12:17:02 <esolangs> [[LRL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118954&oldid=102077 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+0)
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13:14:01 <esolangs> [[Talk:!English]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118957&oldid=118946 * None1 * (+121)
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14:19:09 <esolangs> [[OISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118958&oldid=114586 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (-1) /* List of OISCs */
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14:40:30 <esolangs> [[Vroom]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118959&oldid=118953 * Rignchen * (-6) /* Cat program */
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14:59:37 <esolangs> [[Vroom]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118960&oldid=118959 * Rignchen * (+112)
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15:20:38 <int-e> I prefer to have none of that mircy business.
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15:29:56 <ais523> example99: you are mostly just annoying the ops with this sort of thing
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16:22:00 <b_jonas> https://www.righto.com/2023/11/reverse-engineering-intel-386.html => whoa, he's tackling the 80386 now? but that is a huge chip, much more complicated than the 8086 and other small chips that he's examined earlier. it has associative caches and a lot of othe magic.
16:25:55 <b_jonas> incidentally, even if you don't care about most of that blog, https://www.righto.com/2023/08/datapoint-to-8086.html is a very useful resource that specifically explains how the originalal 8086 instruction set got its historical baggage from the z80 and even earlier cpus
16:27:22 <b_jonas> retrocomputing is just weird
16:28:00 <b_jonas> and sure, I know we have this kind of decade-long transitive compatibility historical baggage not just in hardware but software
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16:30:44 <example99> Scientific papers about thought experiments with several participants often used letters to identify them, A, B, and C, etc.
16:30:44 <example99> The first mention of Alice and Bob in the context of cryptography was in Rivest, Shamir, and Adleman's 1978 article "A method for obtaining digital signatures and public-key cryptosystems."[2] They wrote, "For our scenarios we suppose that A and B (also known as Alice and Bob) are two users of a public-key cryptosystem".[2]: 121 Previous to
16:30:44 <example99> this article, cryptographers typically referred to message senders and receivers as A and B, or other simple symbols. In fact, in the two previous articles by Rivest, Shamir, and Adleman, introducing the RSA cryptosystem, there is no mention of Alice and Bob.[4][5] Possibly the choice of the first three names came from the film Bob & Carol & Ted &
16:30:44 <example99> Within a few years, however, references to Alice and Bob in cryptological literature became a common trope. Cryptographers would often begin their academic papers with reference to Alice and Bob. For instance, Michael Rabin began his 1981 paper, "Bob and Alice each have a secret, SB and SA, respectively, which they want to exchange."[7] Early on,
16:30:44 <example99> Alice and Bob were starting to appear in other domains, such as in Manuel Blum's 1981 article, "Coin Flipping by Telephone: A Protocol for Solving Impossible Problems," which begins, "Alice and Bob want to flip a coin by telephone."[8]
16:30:45 <example99> Although Alice and Bob were invented with no reference to their personality, authors soon began adding colorful descriptions. In 1983, Blum invented a backstory about a troubled relationship between Alice and Bob, writing, "Alice and Bob, recently divorced, mutually distrustful, still do business together. They live on opposite coasts, communicate
16:30:45 <example99> mainly by telephone, and use their computers to transact business over the telephone."[9] In 1984, John Gordon delivered his famous[10] "After Dinner Speech" about Alice and Bob, which he imagines to be the first "definitive biography of Alice and Bob."[11]
16:30:46 <example99> In addition to adding backstories and personalities to Alice and Bob, authors soon added other characters, with their own personalities. The first to be added was Eve, the "eavesdropper." Eve was invented in 1988 by Charles Bennet, Gilles Brassard, and Jean-Marc Robert, in their paper, "Privacy Amplification by Public Discussion."[12] In Bruce
16:30:46 <example99> Schneier's book Applied Cryptography, other characters are listed.[13]
16:30:48 <example99> Scientific papers about thought experiments with several participants often used letters to identify them, A, B, and C, etc.
16:30:48 <example99> The first mention of Alice and Bob in the context of cryptography was in Rivest, Shamir, and Adleman's 1978 article "A method for obtaining digital signatures and public-key cryptosystems."[2] They wrote, "For our scenarios we suppose that A and B (also known as Alice and Bob) are two users of a public-key cryptosystem".[2]: 121 Previous to
16:30:49 <example99> this article, cryptographers typically referred to message senders and receivers as A and B, or other simple symbols. In fact, in the two previous articles by Rivest, Shamir, and Adleman, introducing the RSA cryptosystem, there is no mention of Alice and Bob.[4][5] Possibly the choice of the first three names came from the film Bob & Carol & Ted &
16:30:50 <example99> Within a few years, however, references to Alice and Bob in cryptological literature became a common trope. Cryptographers would often begin their academic papers with reference to Alice and Bob. For instance, Michael Rabin began his 1981 paper, "Bob and Alice each have a secret, SB and SA, respectively, which they want to exchange."[7] Early on,
16:30:50 <example99> Alice and Bob were starting to appear in other domains, such as in Manuel Blum's 1981 article, "Coin Flipping by Telephone: A Protocol for Solving Impossible Problems," which begins, "Alice and Bob want to flip a coin by telephone."[8]
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16:32:05 <b_jonas> eh, like leave it on quiet
16:32:10 <int-e> "<example99> hi! pls unquiet me that was just a test for huge messages"
16:33:33 <int-e> they've played around with /cycle earlier and +q doesn't prevent that
16:33:54 <b_jonas> some of the historical quirks are annoying. like a very long time ago, C or unix, I don't know which, decided that it's OK if divison by zero or overflow in integer division raises a trap that might kill the process. I don't know if this comes from a hardware implementation of divison. it's inconvenient, it would be much better for everyone if integer division never raised a trap, but we can't get rid
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16:34:16 <b_jonas> int-e: oh, I didn't notice that. then fine.
16:35:31 <b_jonas> and now, because of that stupid legacy, I can crash our production system by just computing &H80000000&\-1 in the badly implemented VBS interpreter.
16:37:12 <b_jonas> VBS raises an error for divison by zero, but for some reason not in that case. why would they program it like that? probably originally because the whole giant industrial software was put together by cheap intern code monkeys, and then for the next three decades they don't dare to modify any part of it in later releases, only add new things, because they fear breaking compatibility with existing code.
16:37:52 <b_jonas> because https://xkcd.com/1172/ , every change is an incompatible change
16:38:25 <b_jonas> and my dayjob is to try to work around this stupid huge software that crashes all the time and I have no way to know why
16:39:12 <b_jonas> I don't think the VBS divison overflow has come up in the actual system, that was just something I discovered when experimenting, the crashes are much less reproducable and so much harder to isolate sadly.
16:44:46 <b_jonas> ... or maybe the 386 doesn't actually have an associative cache for general data/code, only for paging and segmenting. oops
16:44:56 <b_jonas> for some reason I thought it had general data cache.
16:45:14 <int-e> FWIW the IP isn't stable so I suppose they'll be back tomorrow.
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17:29:19 <esolangs> [[Simplier]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118961&oldid=118885 * Rignchen * (+483) /* Examples */
17:51:24 <zzo38_> What do you think would be better for division by zero? (I had been writing my own ideas about operating system design, that it can be one differently if it is possible with the instruction set, although note that different instruction sets are possible.)
17:58:04 <esolangs> [[Vroom]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118962&oldid=118960 * Rignchen * (+6)
17:59:35 <zzo38_> (This is, if the program is still written in C; although, I am not sure there is a better way in C)
18:01:16 <zzo38_> (since if the program continues from where the error occurs, then that can also be a problem as well as not knowing what the result of a division by zero is (although uxn defines division by zero to be zero))
18:13:39 <esolangs> [[User:Quito0567]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118963&oldid=118483 * Quito0567 * (+30)
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18:21:48 <b_jonas> https://www.righto.com/2023/10/intel-386-die-versions.html is explicit about the no data/code cache
18:23:18 <int-e> yeah you just had the prefetch queue
18:24:53 <int-e> Which was like 16 bytes long? You could actually measure it with self-modifying code because memory writes would not invalidate the prefetched data
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18:34:16 <b_jonas> zzo38: if you were to design it anew, then in a C-like language it would be better if integer division by zero or division overflow just gave some integer result. it would be nontrivial to do this now, because on existing systems, a program can actually rely on the division trap, eg. catch the unix signal and handle it in a definte way. it might still be possible with some library stack unrolling magic
18:34:22 <b_jonas> in the signal handler, but might not be worth. in a new high-level interpreted language, I think the best would still be to return some integer, but raising a high-level exception would also work. for the VBS implementation that I complained about, probably just change it to raise a division by zero error, it's much better than a crash.
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18:38:48 <zzo38_> Uxn (which is not a C-like language) does define division by zero to result in zero; it is defined like that so that error traps are not possible.
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18:53:36 <esolangs> [[GotoScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118964 * Quito0567 * (+2874) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=GotoScript |author=[[User:Quito0567]] |year=[[:Category:2023|2023]] |files=<code>.goto</code> }} '''GotoScript''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] devised by [[User:Quito0567]] in early November 2023. Its control flow consists of o
18:54:19 <esolangs> [[GotoScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118965&oldid=118964 * Quito0567 * (+39)
19:00:05 <ais523> declarative languages have a very good solution to division by zero: division of a nonzero number by zero fails, division of zero by zero produces an unbound variable
19:00:24 <ais523> (and presumably dividing an unbound variable by zero binds that variable to 0, although I don't think I've ever tested that case)
19:01:00 <esolangs> [[GotoScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118966&oldid=118965 * Quito0567 * (+2)
19:22:49 <esolangs> [[Simplier]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118967&oldid=118961 * Rignchen * (+166) /* Examples */
19:26:01 <esolangs> [[GotoScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118968&oldid=118966 * Quito0567 * (+412)
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19:48:52 <zzo38_> What programming language does that? (I can understand the sense of doing that, but I don't know what programming language that is?)
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19:56:45 <b_jonas> ais523: that sounds great in theory, until you try to write a prolog program that does a conditional on a numeric comparison like (B, C < D -> E ; F), some unrelated code before the comparison fails to match unexpectedly, and your program now silently behaves as if that numeric comparison gave false, and you hunt the bug for hours. this is one of several reasons why my Olvashato transpiler gives such
19:56:51 <b_jonas> ugly prolog code: it tries to avoid that failure mode really hard, and add an abort after every =/2 match or arithmetic comparison, and since it's a very simple transpiler, it can basically never prove that the abort can be eliminated.
19:57:41 <b_jonas> It can't prove deconsing matches irrefutable because that would require implementing an algebraic type system.
19:59:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: prolog mostly, also languages that inherit prolog failure semantics, namely Oz and Brachylog
19:59:56 <b_jonas> for Brachylog there'd be no problem because it's a golf language so unexpected silent weird semantics for errors is acceptible
20:00:10 <b_jonas> but Prolog is used for serious programming too, and there it's not
20:04:37 <b_jonas> there might be also a language that inherits prolog's failure and retries semantics but doesn't have prolog's recursive term unification, but I haven't seen such a language
20:05:56 <b_jonas> it'd still need prolog-like variable that are single-assignment but unassigned on a rollback from failure
20:06:35 <b_jonas> just, like, without such variables appearing in any slot argument of a term
20:10:47 <b_jonas> https://www.righto.com/2023/10/intel-386-die-versions.html => OH! that explains a lot about the 386 SX versus 386 DX. I assumed they were the same thing except that one had the equivalent of the 80287 coprocessor built in, but they are actually much more different.
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20:14:19 <int-e> No. The SX and DX that were almost the same were the 486DX and the 486SX that lacked coprocessor support. Oh and early 487 coprocessors were also essentially full 486DX, IIRC. Also IIRC the 486SX were 486DX whose FPU was faulty (didn't pass quality control).
20:20:32 <int-e> But I didn't know that their primary reason for the 386 SX was chip packaging... that's wild.
20:20:34 <esolangs> [[GotoScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118975&oldid=118973 * Quito0567 * (-92)
20:20:54 <int-e> Then again so is the thought of a 64 bit RAM for $99.
20:23:13 <esolangs> [[GotoScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118976&oldid=118975 * Quito0567 * (+27)
20:26:49 <b_jonas> ah, so apparently the 486 DX is the ones that has a 80287-equivalent coprocessor built into it, whereas the 487 SX doesn't
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20:27:37 <b_jonas> "early 487 coprocessors" => did those exist? I assumed that by that time the coprocessor is either built-in or software-emulated, no point to have it as a separate chip.
20:31:01 <esolangs> [[GotoScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118977&oldid=118976 * Quito0567 * (+301)
20:32:10 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X87#80487
20:32:22 <esolangs> [[GotoScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118978&oldid=118977 * Quito0567 * (+0)
20:32:31 <int-e> b_jonas: You're not wrong: "When installed into an i486SX system, the i487 disabled the main CPU and took over all CPU operations." :-P
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21:04:59 <esolangs> [[A very minimal esolang with a very few amount of instructions]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118985 * 0ptr * (+24443) Created page with "'''A very minimal esolang with a very few amount of instructions''' is a very minimal esolang with a very few amount of instructions. '''A very minimal esolang with a very few amount of instructions''' has: - An array
21:05:54 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118986&oldid=118370 * Quito0567 * (+127)
21:06:12 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118987&oldid=118986 * Quito0567 * (+2)
21:06:39 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118988&oldid=118927 * 0ptr * (+68)
21:08:31 <esolangs> [[A very minimal esolang with a very few amount of instructions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118989&oldid=118985 * 0ptr * (+0)
21:08:58 <esolangs> [[Factorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118990&oldid=116311 * Quito0567 * (+193)
21:11:24 <esolangs> [[User:Quito0567/InDev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118991&oldid=116800 * Quito0567 * (-148)
21:12:53 <esolangs> [[ErrorFull]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118992&oldid=114920 * Quito0567 * (+1)
21:12:57 <esolangs> [[A very minimal esolang with a very few amount of instructions]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118993&oldid=118989 * 0ptr * (-47) remove the \uFFFF instruction
21:13:08 <esolangs> [[ErrorFull]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118994&oldid=118992 * Quito0567 * (+3)
21:15:52 <esolangs> [[Super Yellow]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=118995 * LTHCTheMaster * (+7016) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Super Yellow |author=LTHCTheMaster |year=[[:Category:2023|2023]] |memsys=variables |dimensions=One-dimensional languages |refimpl=[https://github.com/LTHCTheMaster/Super-Yellow Super Yellow] |files=<code>.redgreen</code> }} '''Super Y
21:18:48 <esolangs> [[Super Yellow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118996&oldid=118995 * LTHCTheMaster * (+0) /* Fibonacci Sequence */
21:19:04 <esolangs> [[Super Yellow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118997&oldid=118996 * LTHCTheMaster * (+0) /* 99 Bottles Of Beer */
21:19:07 <esolangs> [[A very minimal esolang with a very few amount of instructions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118998&oldid=118993 * Quito0567 * (+171)
21:19:28 <esolangs> [[A very minimal esolang with a very few amount of instructions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=118999&oldid=118998 * Quito0567 * (+0)
21:22:27 <esolangs> [[Super Yellow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=119000&oldid=118997 * LTHCTheMaster * (+142) /* Commands */
21:23:57 <esolangs> [[Super Yellow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=119001&oldid=119000 * LTHCTheMaster * (-138) /* Commands */
21:24:48 <esolangs> [[Super Yellow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=119002&oldid=119001 * LTHCTheMaster * (+2) /* Commands */
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22:43:11 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * PiggyPig * New user account
22:47:52 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=119003&oldid=118952 * PiggyPig * (+109) /* Introductions */
22:48:54 <esolangs> [[User:PiggyPig]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=119004 * PiggyPig * (+19) Created page with "Hello, i'm a Groink"
23:01:36 <esolangs> [[Super Yellow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=119005&oldid=119002 * LTHCTheMaster * (+18)
23:10:26 <esolangs> [[GotoScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=119006&oldid=118984 * Quito0567 * (+78)
23:11:06 <esolangs> [[GotoScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=119007&oldid=119006 * Quito0567 * (+6)
23:11:36 <esolangs> [[GotoScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=119008&oldid=119007 * Quito0567 * (+4)
23:13:36 <esolangs> [[GotoScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=119009&oldid=119008 * Quito0567 * (-23)
23:14:09 <esolangs> [[GotoScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=119010&oldid=119009 * Quito0567 * (+18)
23:18:24 <esolangs> [[GotoScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=119011&oldid=119010 * Quito0567 * (-2)
23:19:29 <esolangs> [[Super Yellow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=119012&oldid=119005 * LTHCTheMaster * (+296)
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23:26:25 -!- int-e has set channel mode: -bo *!*@2001:9e8:e1c9:cf00:* int-e.
23:27:48 <esolangs> [[Linecode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=119013 * PiggyPig * (+5507) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Linecode |author=PiggyPig |year=[[:Category:2023|2023]] |memsys=variable |dimensions=One-dimensional languages |refimpl=[https://github.com/PiggyPigCute/linecode] |files=<code>.linecode</code> }} The '''LineCode''' is the project of programin
23:30:43 <esolangs> [[Linecode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=119014&oldid=119013 * PiggyPig * (-3) small formating changes
23:32:02 <esolangs> [[Linecode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=119015&oldid=119014 * PiggyPig * (-26) small formating changes
23:32:34 <esolangs> [[Linecode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=119016&oldid=119015 * PiggyPig * (+0) small formating changes
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23:37:19 <esolangs> [[Linecode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=119017&oldid=119016 * PiggyPig * (+275) small formating changes
23:42:44 <esolangs> [[GotoScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=119018&oldid=119011 * Quito0567 * (-1)
23:44:41 <esolangs> [[User:Quito0567]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=119019&oldid=118963 * Quito0567 * (-51)
23:47:17 <esolangs> [[User:Quito0567]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=119020&oldid=119019 * Quito0567 * (+43)
23:47:49 <esolangs> [[User:Quito0567]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=119021&oldid=119020 * Quito0567 * (-14)
23:48:07 <esolangs> [[User:Quito0567]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=119022&oldid=119021 * Quito0567 * (-1)
23:48:44 <esolangs> [[User:Quito0567]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=119023&oldid=119022 * Quito0567 * (+1)
23:50:03 <esolangs> [[User:Quito0567]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=119024&oldid=119023 * Quito0567 * (+0)
23:50:07 <esolangs> [[Super Yellow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=119025&oldid=119012 * LTHCTheMaster * (+129)
23:50:23 <esolangs> [[User:Quito0567]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=119026&oldid=119024 * Quito0567 * (+0)
23:50:39 <esolangs> [[GotoScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=119027&oldid=119018 * Quito0567 * (-6)