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01:34:57 <esolangs> [[Spider solitaire]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=121883&oldid=96975 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) Category
02:27:55 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Loganz * New user account
02:30:34 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=121884&oldid=121877 * Loganz * (+125) /* Introductions */
02:32:37 <esolangs> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=121885&oldid=121048 * Loganz * (+57) Add a shorter non-reversed hello world example
03:01:48 <esolangs> [[User:PinkysWorld/]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=121886 * PinkysWorld * (+95) Created page with "You decided to type a slash in front of my username to see if anything would happen. <br/> Why?"
03:02:09 <esolangs> [[User:PinkysWorld]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=121887&oldid=96254 * PinkysWorld * (-4)
07:24:50 <int-e> `le//rn schwartzian//In 1987, Yogurt introduced a better way to rank Schwartz users: Rather than holding an annual tournament, users would take a series of standardized tests adminstered by official Schwartz centers, and would then be ranked according to the results. This lead to the Schwartzian transform because it allowed many more users to be ranked.
07:24:55 <HackEso> Learned 'schwartzian': In 1987, Yogurt introduced a better way to rank Schwartz users: Rather than holding an annual tournament, users would take a series of standardized tests adminstered by official Schwartz centers, and would then be ranked according to the results. This lead to the Schwartzian transform because it allowed many more users to be ranked.
07:28:03 <int-e> `"
07:28:05 <HackEso> 1/1:1028) <Bike> I'm glad I quit programming to take up listening to numbers stations \ 19) <ehird> so i can only conclude that it is flawed, or the world is utterly bonkers
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09:25:43 <esolangs> [[Strelnokoff]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=121888&oldid=121858 * Chris Pressey * (+4) Update links
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09:39:12 <esolangs> [[Strelnokoff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=121889&oldid=121888 * Chris Pressey * (+730) Add "interlock flag" idea, giving more hope that a Minsky machine could be built in Strelnokoff
09:58:35 <esolangs> [[Strelnokoff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=121890&oldid=121889 * Chris Pressey * (+144) Better info on division and relational operators.
09:59:23 <esolangs> [[Braindrunk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=121891&oldid=121864 * None1 * (+13) /* Python interpreter */
09:59:32 <esolangs> [[Braindrunk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=121892&oldid=121891 * None1 * (+1) /* Python interpreter */
10:29:12 <int-e> . o O ( Brainduck is like Ook! but with s/oOk/Quack/g )
10:29:40 <int-e> Ook, not oOk.
10:39:30 <esolangs> [[Strelnokoff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=121893&oldid=121890 * Chris Pressey * (-165) Re-explain the complications of building a Minsky machine now that I'm more optimistic about it
10:44:23 <esolangs> [[Impossible Script]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=121894&oldid=121882 * LEOMOK * (+6) Fixed mistakes
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12:07:34 <esolangs> [[EA Script, It's in the code.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=121895&oldid=121833 * None1 * (+20) /* Computational class */
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14:24:09 <esolangs> [[Implicit loop brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=121896&oldid=111179 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+133) Categories
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14:56:06 <esolangs> [[User talk:Graue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=121897&oldid=86306 * None1 * (+283) /* The Esoteric File Archive */ new section
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15:44:07 <cpressey> Ah hmm, I just found out about a complexity class I hadn't heard of before - TOWER
15:45:06 <cpressey> Normalizing a term in STLC is TOWER-complete
15:45:19 <cpressey> and, ELEMENTARY ⊊ TOWER ⊊ PR
15:46:39 <cpressey> reference: https://cstheory.stackexchange.com/a/52113
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15:51:31 <wib_jonas> cpressey: is that the same as https://complexityzoo.net/Complexity_Zoo:T#tower ?
15:56:55 <esolangs> [[User:Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=121898&oldid=80199 * PaxtonPenguin * (+25)
15:57:47 <cpressey> wib_jonas: They look like they're referring to the same thing to me
15:58:42 <esolangs> [[EA Script, It's in the code.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=121899&oldid=121895 * LEOMOK * (+0)
15:59:54 <cpressey> "Unlike ELEMENTARY and PR, which have no complete problems..." wait what?  How is evaluating a primitive recursive function not PR-complete?
16:02:03 <cpressey> Ehhmm... "technical reasons that make my brain hurt".
16:02:10 <wib_jonas> crpessey: a primitive recursive function has a runtime of O(n↑↑c) for some constant c where n is the input length. if you want to evaluate any primitive recursive function then you need to handle arbitrarily high c, which no primitive recursive program can do, so evaulating a primitive recursive program isn't primitive recursive.
16:03:07 <wib_jonas> mind you, you would think the same about P, since a program in P has runtime bounded by O(n↑c) for some constant c, so that's not a valid argument
16:03:09 <cpressey> OK, but, a polynomial time function has a runtime of O(n^c) for some constant c, which can also be arbitrarily high -- but there IS such a thing as P-completeness.
16:03:17 <cpressey> jinx.
16:03:26 <wib_jonas> yeah, I don't know
16:03:38 <wib_jonas> guess you'll have to ask ais523, he knows how this works
16:03:46 <esolangs> [[User talk:PaxtonPenguin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=121900&oldid=121852 * PaxtonPenguin * (+6019)
16:05:21 <cpressey> I think it has something more to do with the fact that completeness relies on reductions and what kind of reductions are allowable depends on the class you're targetting.  (e.g. logspace reductions for P, polytime reductions for NP).  I'm given to understand that PR is "closed under reductions that belong to ELEMENTARY" and the absence of
16:05:22 <cpressey> completeness has something to do with that.
16:09:55 <wib_jonas> I don't really know how P-complete is defined as in what reductions are allowed
16:10:34 <wib_jonas> NP-completeness just works out very fortunate with the definition where you always reduce one boolean output problem to one boolean output problem with the output not processed
16:11:26 <wib_jonas> but multiple kind of reductions could make sense for some class and it might not be clear which one you want
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16:15:35 <cpressey> More complexity fun: instead of scoffing at the thought that P=NP, you can (thanks to descriptive complexity theory) scoff at the thought that first-order logic with a least fixed point operator can express just as many provable statements as existential second-order logic can.
16:21:52 <wib_jonas> what
16:22:23 <wib_jonas> is that like express if you can choose any language, or express with some specific underlying language like integers with addition and multiplication and exponentiation or something like that
16:22:33 <wib_jonas> also that statement is more opaque and so less scoffworthy
16:30:29 <wib_jonas> I mean the question isn't just about what language, but about express as in have an axiom system and what to decide if it's consistent, or just express as in whether the statement is true for the natural numbers with those operations
16:33:51 <cpressey> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descriptive_complexity_theory can probably explain it better than I can.  And yes, the logic version is harder to think about and thus less scoffworthy, but I think the more you're used to logic the easier it is to see it that way.  It's not hard to see that plain SO logic is much more expressive than plain FO logic,
16:33:52 <cpressey> for example. And then it's just trying to figure out what those add-ons add.
16:38:08 <cpressey> Also, the difficult-to-see-the-scoffworthiness was supposed to be humourous.
16:40:02 <wib_jonas> yeah, in reality neither is scuffworthy because P!=NP is hard to prove
16:41:07 <wib_jonas> also scuffing at it would mean you scuff at the work of cryptographers who try to come up with trap functions that are hard to reverse, at least the part of their work that isn't about side-channels
16:41:20 <wib_jonas> (easy to compute forward and hard to reverse, obviously)
16:43:06 <cpressey> P!=NP may be hard to prove, but it's easy to rely on, apparently.
16:45:44 <wib_jonas> ok, I think that's technically not equivalent, the implication only goes backwards, if you scoff at the cryptographers then you scoff at P!=NP too, but not backwards, because the cryptographers want better bounds on how slow the function is to revers than just asymptotic non-polynomial
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17:08:57 <esolangs> [[Category:No set computational class]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=121901&oldid=121826 * LEOMOK * (+12)
17:09:21 <esolangs> [[Category:Usability not set]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=121902&oldid=121825 * LEOMOK * (+12)
17:11:31 <cpressey> <cpressey> How is evaluating a primitive recursive function not PR-complete?  <--- bahhhh!!!  Evaluating a PR function isn't even in PR, so how could it be PR-complete?
17:11:43 <cpressey> My brain, it is out of practice on this stuff
17:12:30 <cpressey> I'm not even sure what I'm interested in anymore.
17:13:03 <esolangs> [[Impossible Script]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=121903&oldid=121894 * LEOMOK * (-2)
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18:08:14 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MaksPV * New user account
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19:09:56 <b_jonas> cpressey: "Evaluating a PR function isn't even in PR" => yes, that's what I said, but also evaluating a polynomial time function isn't even in polynomial time
19:10:14 <b_jonas> no matter how you encode the functions
19:10:53 <b_jonas> and yet there is such a thing as P-complete
21:00:32 <esolangs> [[!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=121904&oldid=120983 * BoundedBeans * (+0) FIXED TABLE HEADERS TO BE UPPERCASE
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21:40:12 <esolangs> [[Freestajlo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=121905 * LEOMOK * (+5330) Created page with "'''Freestajlo''' is a Turing-complete programming language made by [[User:LEOMOK]]. Its name comes from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EygTFFhVBf8, which is the first video uploaded by the music YouTuber Waterflame. It is inspired by other stack-based programming lan
21:40:37 <esolangs> [[Freestajlo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=121906&oldid=121905 * LEOMOK * (+1) Fixed category section
21:40:55 <esolangs> [[Freestajlo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=121907&oldid=121906 * LEOMOK * (+1) Another
21:46:46 <esolangs> [[Freestajlo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=121908&oldid=121907 * LEOMOK * (+1)
21:47:42 <esolangs> [[Freestajlo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=121909&oldid=121908 * LEOMOK * (+52)
21:48:03 <esolangs> [[Threi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=121910&oldid=120676 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+325) Completed the Hello, World! example in order to replicate the respective message in binary form.
21:48:27 <esolangs> [[Freestajlo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=121911&oldid=121909 * LEOMOK * (+30)
21:49:53 <esolangs> [[Threi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=121912&oldid=121910 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+6681) Added an interpreter implementation in Common Lisp.
21:56:37 <esolangs> [[Threi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=121913&oldid=121912 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+289) Supplemented an apostille concerning the deviation from Smallfuck on its memory boundaries, as suggested by the truth-machine example, and reformatted the command table.
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