←2024-01-17 2024-01-18 2024-01-19→ ↑2024 ↑all
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01:21:09 <esolangs> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122126&oldid=122125 * None1 * (+14) /* Do Nothing */
01:29:21 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122127&oldid=121397 * None1 * (+49) /* noisruceR */
01:29:35 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122128&oldid=122127 * None1 * (+1) /* noisruceR */
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02:04:37 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck Python interpreter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122129&oldid=113793 * None1 * (+11) I'm annoyed of this
03:55:40 <esolangs> [[ThreadFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122130&oldid=122106 * None1 * (-10) /* Lock */
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04:20:02 <esolangs> [[ThreadFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122131&oldid=122130 * None1 * (+77) /* Computation class */ Added Python interpreter and category tag
04:25:24 <esolangs> [[ThreadFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122132&oldid=122131 * None1 * (+77) /* Example 1 */
04:25:41 <esolangs> [[ThreadFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122133&oldid=122132 * None1 * (+90) /* Example 2 */
04:46:53 <esolangs> [[ThreadFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122134&oldid=122133 * None1 * (+470) /* Examples */ Added another lock example
04:50:29 <esolangs> [[ThreadFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122135&oldid=122134 * None1 * (+3) /* Lock 2 */
04:56:49 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck extensions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122136&oldid=113723 * None1 * (+58)
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10:59:22 <cpressey> So I recently updated Strelnokoff.  I wrote another implementation.  I'm trying to release it.
11:00:09 <cpressey> This has indirectly caused me to look at open source licensing again, more critically this time.
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11:01:10 <cpressey> It's a mess.  (but I'm sure you already knew that)
11:02:31 <cpressey> It's especially a mess if you just want to put something into the public domain.
11:34:51 <esolangs> [[HashedPoem]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=122137 * None1 * (+1233) Created page with "{{WIP}}{{Lang|a=User:None1|i=[[hash function]]}} ==Hash== HashedPoem programs consists of '''words''' separated by whitespaces (spaces, tabs, linefeeds). Each word has a hash value, the hash of a lowercase string a<sub>0</sub>a<sub>1</sub>a<sub>2</sub>...a<sub>l-1</sub
11:35:30 <esolangs> [[HashedPoem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122138&oldid=122137 * None1 * (+18)
11:37:18 <esolangs> [[HashedPoem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122139&oldid=122138 * None1 * (-1) /* Hash */ Python is uppercase
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11:37:53 <wib_jonas> cpressey: yes it is
11:48:54 <esolangs> [[HashedPoem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122140&oldid=122139 * None1 * (+894)
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11:50:41 <esolangs> [[HashedPoem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122141&oldid=122140 * None1 * (+90) /* Programs */
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11:51:12 <esolangs> [[HashedPoem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122142&oldid=122141 * None1 * (+2)
11:51:42 <esolangs> [[HashedPoem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122143&oldid=122142 * None1 * (+4) /* Programs */
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11:53:59 <cpressey> The Unlicense is OSI approved, but people wail about how it won't work in Germany.  CC0 will work in Germany, but the FSF wails about how it doesn't protect users from patent treachery.
11:58:46 <cpressey> There also seems to be a trend of butchering the licenses themselves.  If I see "License: MIT" I'm just supposed to know that a MIT-style license applies in the absence of the full legal text, even though the full legal text has a specific clause about how "redistribution must include this list of conditions".
12:01:24 <esolangs> [[HashedPoem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122144&oldid=122143 * None1 * (+1328) /* Integer representation */
12:01:25 <cpressey> Some conventions recommend using a license file that starts with "(c) <year> <name>" and putting the actual copyright messge in the source file; even though there is text in the license referring to "the above copyright message".
12:01:25 <wib_jonas> cpressey: what annoys me is that most of the shorter licenses fail to specify time or space limits. they should specifically say that they give you a perpetual worldwide license, or something equivalent to that.
12:01:57 <esolangs> [[HashedPoem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122145&oldid=122144 * None1 * (-9) Finished
12:02:23 <cpressey> (More specifically, I should've said a template license file that start with the *literal* text "(c) <year> <name>")
12:03:20 <wib_jonas> cpressey: why is that a problem if it's a template and the other files distributed have the copyright message filled in? do you want an explicit license to distribute the license?
12:03:25 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122146&oldid=122118 * None1 * (+17) /* H */
12:04:38 <cpressey> wib_jonas: The license template reads like it requires copies to contain the literal text "(c) <year> <name>", rather than the copyright message.  The sane thing would be to update the license to say "the copyright message in the covered file" (or something) rather than "the above copyright message".
12:05:15 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122147&oldid=122103 * None1 * (+98) /* My Esolangs */
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12:06:04 <esolangs> [[HashedPoem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122148&oldid=122145 * None1 * (+105)
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12:08:01 <cpressey> I realize that hardly any of this ever comes to legal action, and when it does, they often base the arguments on the intent of the person releasing the thing, and aren't locked into a literal reading of the text
12:08:03 <cpressey> Still
12:08:09 <cpressey> It bugs me.
12:28:15 <wib_jonas> the python license says world-wide but doesn't say perpetual; the X11 license gives neither a time nor space unless you interpret "without restriction" as that; the BSD licenses don't give either time or space extent and some versions don't even say it's free of money; the Boost license doesn't give either time or space extent. even longer licenses
12:28:16 <wib_jonas> don't always seem to get it right, the GPL is rather implicit about space or time limits.
12:30:15 <wib_jonas> the Apache license is one of those that does get this right, it says "perpetual, worldwide, ..., no-charge, royalty-free"
12:30:25 <wib_jonas> so are the Creative Commons licenses by the way
12:31:43 <esolangs> [[Reprog]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=122149 * Orisphera * (+7747) Created
12:32:46 <esolangs> [[HashedPoem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122150&oldid=122148 * None1 * (+22) /* Commands */
12:33:27 <wib_jonas> or... wait a moment
12:35:33 <esolangs> [[HashedPoem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122151&oldid=122150 * None1 * (+3) /* Programs */ You can't write is is is, because it is invalid
12:36:33 <esolangs> [[HashedPoem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122152&oldid=122151 * None1 * (+88) /* Programs */
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12:37:23 <esolangs> [[User:Kiken/Construction Site/Descriptions/Operation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122153&oldid=122100 * Kiken * (+45) /* Controlling */
12:39:55 <wib_jonas> the CC-0 disclaimer does say perpetual worldwide (not in these words but equivalent), but the CC-BY-4.0 license only says worldwide and doesn't seem to give a time extent
12:42:02 <int-e> the latter says "This Public License applies for the term of the Copyright and Similar Rights licensed here."
12:42:23 <int-e> Which is even more specific than "perpetual" would be.
12:43:21 <int-e> (showing that keyword searches are not adequate for this)
12:43:27 <wib_jonas> oh good, so it does give a time. good.
12:43:41 <wib_jonas> that explains why I thought it gave a time extent. I checked this at some point.
12:46:48 <wib_jonas> what I'd like is a license that gives you the same rights as the CC-BY-4.0, but with the additional license that 70 years after you acquire the licensed work you can redistribute it under the CC-0 disclaimer
12:49:11 <int-e> There's a proper mess here (all depending on jurisdictions). For example, there's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_against_perpetuities (making "perpetual" problematic) and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_lives_clause as a response to that.
12:49:47 <wib_jonas> I want to work around the stupid way how the copyright law incentivizes you to kill creators (make it look like an accident) so that the copyright protections expire earlier. An additional license disclaiming the copyright 70 years after you acquire the work would remove this incentive.
12:50:16 <wib_jonas> well, mostly remove it. technically you could still kill me to get the rights for a yet unpublished work earlier.
12:50:34 <esolangs> [[Another Finite State Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122154&oldid=90796 * Kiken * (+31)
12:52:27 <wib_jonas> int-e: hmm
12:54:24 <esolangs> [[User:Kiken/Construction Site/Descriptions/Operation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122155&oldid=122153 * Kiken * (+314)
12:56:25 <wib_jonas> int-e: wait, that page you linked "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_lives_clause" gives as example "all the lineal descendants of his Majesty King Charles III who have been born before the date of this agreement". isn't that only eight people, all in one family? that sounds a bit too few for run-over-by-a-truck insurance.
12:56:59 <esolangs> [[HashedPoem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122156&oldid=122152 * None1 * (+59) /* Programs */
12:57:11 <wib_jonas> I mean, they probably won't all crash on the same single plane, but still, why would you bet on that when you could just specify more people with not much drawback?
12:57:27 <esolangs> [[HashedPoem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122157&oldid=122156 * None1 * (+6) /* Programs */
12:57:43 <int-e> wib_jonas: sure, you could cast your net wider if you have other people that you hate with a passion ;)
12:58:17 <int-e> since apparently you think that this stuff creates and assassination market
13:04:08 <wib_jonas> no, I think that's backwards. you're saying that the Rule against perpetuities might prohibit a creator to give a perpetual license, or might prohibit the distributor to have such a license, so you use this workaround to write a license that's close enough to perpetual. that encourages them to keep those royalty alive. that's unless perhaps you're
13:04:08 <wib_jonas> an unfriendly heir of the creator who doesn't like that your ancestor gave a perpetual license, or you somehow acquired an alternate license that's more perpetual than what most people have
13:07:24 <int-e> wib_jonas: I'm not saying that you should use that particular workaround. It's noteworthy though that with copyright, the copyright term is longer than those 21 years beyond the life span of the most likely licensor (the author)
13:07:51 <int-e> My main point was really that there's a proper mess out there.
13:08:31 <wib_jonas> sure
13:09:39 <int-e> (And not a mess I understand. I know of a few highlights.)
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13:15:54 <wib_jonas> the unspecified time and place bothers me because the law about copyrights "https://njt.hu/jogszabaly/1999-76-00-00.48#sc1999-76-00-00-672" says that if the space extent is not specified in a copyright license then it applies only to redistribution in Hungary only by default, if the duration is not specified then it applies to the usual duration
13:15:55 <wib_jonas> used for similar types of work by default, and that if the copyright license is ambiguous then it must be interpreted as granting the least rights to the redistributor and the most rights to the creator
13:16:47 <wib_jonas> so if I publish something with a license like the X11 license then I can later claim that I did not allow you to redistribute it outside of Hungary
13:18:55 <wib_jonas> this law was basically originally designed for TV series broadcast on the few government-owned television channels, and for dead-tree publishers to sell author's books through book stores, and it really shows. there are some parts of the law that are good, but some are just moronic
13:22:35 <wib_jonas> like, really, they tried to write it in a forward-thinking way, but the extent of that is that there's like tons of references of satellite television in addition to earth-based broadcast.
14:25:41 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * None1 * uploaded "[[File:Expression.png]]": [[HashedPoem]] hash calculating expression in image form
14:26:31 <esolangs> [[HashedPoem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122159&oldid=122157 * None1 * (-77) /* Programs */ Improved formatting with image
14:27:04 <esolangs> [[HashedPoem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122160&oldid=122159 * None1 * (+6) /* Programs */ image too large
14:28:29 <esolangs> [[File:Expression.png]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122161&oldid=122158 * None1 * (+152) /* Summary */
14:33:44 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * None1 * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Expression.png]]": Fixed expression superscripts and subscripts
14:34:40 <esolangs> [[HashedPoem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122163&oldid=122160 * None1 * (+0) /* Programs */ image too small
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17:00:07 <esolangs> [[GML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122164&oldid=78446 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) Category
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20:57:44 <esolangs> [[HashedPoem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122165&oldid=122163 * Hakerh400 * (+5) Use math tag for math expressions
21:37:48 <esolangs> [[UM8]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122166&oldid=90390 * Olus2000 * (-250) /* Example Programs */ Shorter hello and cat, working truth machine
22:07:41 <esolangs> [[UM8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122167&oldid=122166 * Olus2000 * (-1) Update Matthilde writeup link
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23:22:00 <esolangs> [[HashedPoem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122168&oldid=122165 * None1 * (+100) /* Programs */ I can't see math tags on my side for some reason
23:22:15 <esolangs> [[HashedPoem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122169&oldid=122168 * None1 * (-1) /* Programs */
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23:26:35 <esolangs> [[HashedPoem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=122170&oldid=122169 * None1 * (+25) /* Programs */ for same reason
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