< 1708566750 367046 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
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< 1708566973 223910 :amby!~ambylastn@31.205.89.228 QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1708567745 618216 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Macro14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=123795 5* 03BestCoder 5* (+333) 10Created page with "Macro is a programming language that uses macros to do computation = Macro = == Stuff to know == === Macro ===  a -> b #turn a to b === Selector ===  ~a ~b ~a -> ~b ~a ~b #turns something1 something2 something1 to something2 something1 something2 === Parenthesis ===  5(4
> 1708567807 917625 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Macro14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=123796&oldid=123795 5* 03BestCoder 5* (+58) 10
> 1708567865 80390 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck+214]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=123797&oldid=122777 5* 03EvyLah 5* (+60) 10Brainfuck+3 was taken
> 1708580472 830594 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mode Spam14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=123798&oldid=123714 5* 03EvyLah 5* (+0) 10hold on I forgot to change from I to O
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< 1708581006 580114 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Excess Flood
> 1708581177 149475 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mode Spam14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=123800&oldid=123799 5* 03EvyLah 5* (-36) 10.
< 1708582402 805359 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
> 1708592558 442834 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck+314]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=123801&oldid=90631 5* 03None1 5* (+4) 10/* Implementations */
< 1708594146 261065 :Koen_!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:b41f:a66c:9955:eb84 JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
> 1708596782 933089 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Artyxa 5*  10New user account
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> 1708597014 727249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=123804&oldid=123803 5* 03Artyxa 5* (+14) 10
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> 1708597615 404985 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=123809&oldid=123808 5* 03None1 5* (+1) 10/* My Esolangs */
> 1708599994 920144 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03KalDima 5*  10New user account
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< 1708600854 44384 :amby!~ambylastn@31.205.89.228 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
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< 1708601004 482238 :amby!~ambylastn@31.205.89.228 JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1708601281 230583 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1708601439 66052 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you know there's this famous algorithm that you can use to detect if a linked list is looping, without using extra storage: have two iterators traversing the list, but one of them at double speed by stepping it twice each time you step the slow one, compare them after each step, if they ever become equal again after the start then there's a
< 1708601439 481826 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :loop.
< 1708601483 951959 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but yesterday I learned that there's a more complete version of this, which you can use to find the first element that's part of the loop, and this one seems magical to me, it sounds like there's no way it should work.
< 1708601662 354567 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you just traverse with two pointers from the start, stepping the second one twice each time, like { x = y = begin; do { x++; y++; y++; } while (x != y); } then once they're equal start stepping them slow but also step a third pointer from the start, and compare after each step, like { z = begin; while (x != z) { x++; z++; } } and when they're
< 1708601662 848162 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :first equal they'll magically point to the first element of the loop.
< 1708601691 530353 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :have you heard of this algorithm? I expect some of you have. do you find it magical, like a weird coincidence that this happens to work?
< 1708602790 96745 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
< 1708602962 195861 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.205.212.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
> 1708606886 785179 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07"quote14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=123810 5* 03Cleverxia 5* (+8591) 10Created page with "<nowiki>"quote is an esolang that can only do inputs, prints and repetition.  </nowiki> ==Commands== <code>"..."</code> prints the quoted things.  <code>q</code> does the escaping (<code>q"</code> is character <code>"</code>, <code>qn</code> is newline).  <code>u</code
> 1708607015 206729 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Cleverxia14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=123811&oldid=123525 5* 03Cleverxia 5* (+36) 10/* Current Esolangs I've created */
> 1708607064 27053 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07"quote14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=123812&oldid=123810 5* 03Cleverxia 5* (+66) 10
< 1708608833 51646 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1708611559 848409 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1708612216 391535 :GregorR!~GregorR@71.19.155.102 QUIT :Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)
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< 1708612983 737250 :GregorR!~GregorR@71.19.155.102 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
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> 1708614652 46574 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Buttons14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=123813 5* 03AnotherUser05 5* (+72) 10Created page with "{{WIP}} '''Buttons''' is a 2D esolang created by [[User:AnotherUser05]]."
< 1708614895 699702 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1708617767 976040 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Buttons14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=123814&oldid=123813 5* 03AnotherUser05 5* (+1148) 10
> 1708617793 659444 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:AnotherUser0514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=123815&oldid=123772 5* 03AnotherUser05 5* (+14) 10/* B */
> 1708617818 62155 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GolfSpace14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=123816&oldid=68257 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+83) 10Categories
< 1708617841 838524 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
> 1708618641 357387 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[074est14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=123817&oldid=118833 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+3) 10Fixed example of ^Preprocess
> 1708618934 317944 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[074est14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=123818&oldid=123817 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+131) 10Added NLEscapeDelayStart(,->,<-), renamed NLEscapeDelayStart to NLEscapeDelayStart<->
< 1708619399 198073 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
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< 1708621732 33099 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1708622126 70723 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:2260:300c:400:61bd:fe2e:1f3c:b90a JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie
< 1708622366 811109 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
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< 1708627034 874541 :Joao[3]!~Joao003@190.108.99.207 JOIN #esolangs Joao003 :realname
< 1708627155 464757 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1708627914 261442 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=123819&oldid=123804 5* 03Artyxa 5* (+3) 10
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> 1708628131 153992 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=123820&oldid=123819 5* 03Artyxa 5* (+130) 10
< 1708628348 264258 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
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> 1708632305 444745 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Buttons14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=123821&oldid=123814 5* 03AnotherUser05 5* (+1) 10/* Syntax */
> 1708632366 50555 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Buttons14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=123822&oldid=123821 5* 03AnotherUser05 5* (+5) 10/* Syntax */
< 1708632442 585403 :Thelie!~Thelie@185.66.193.31 JOIN #esolangs * :Thelie
> 1708632621 969483 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Buttons14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=123823&oldid=123822 5* 03AnotherUser05 5* (-68) 10/* Cat Program */
> 1708632900 966431 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Buttons14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=123824&oldid=123823 5* 03AnotherUser05 5* (+60) 10/* Syntax */
> 1708632938 572167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Buttons14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=123825&oldid=123824 5* 03AnotherUser05 5* (+20) 10/* Cat Program */
< 1708633592 175613 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1708633601 921904 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I'd heard of it but couldn't remember the details
< 1708633646 97972 :amby!~ambylastn@31.205.89.228 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1708633702 341935 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it isn't very surprising that it works: the distance that each of the first two pointers move before they meet has to be a multiple of the cycle length, so starting another pointer at that time puts the pointer a multiple of cycle lengths apart, and thus they'll always be at the same place whenever they're both on the cycle
< 1708633735 46153 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because they obviously can't be in the same place when they aren't on the cycle, that means that the instant they first meet will be the instant the cycle starts
< 1708633761 569801 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :when a cycle is detected, slow is at index n, and fast is at index 2n, and the cycle length divides n... so you're starting at 0 again and at will check ahead by a multiple of the cycle length.
< 1708633772 913912 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :as for names... tortoise and hare?
< 1708633795 217801 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the same algorithm has more than one common name
< 1708633801 430476 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :tortoise and hare algorithm is one of them
< 1708633979 954817 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I used it at work once, because I needed to test some code that had a special case when there was a hash collision in the first 64 bits of a cryptographic hash
< 1708634007 269920 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I remember someone used this algorithm to find hash collisions and it surprised me for a bit at first.
> 1708634008 281053 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Spin414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=123826&oldid=123605 5* 03Michael 5* (+20) 10
< 1708634031 693381 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I needed a test case for that, i.e. a 64-bit collision against a sound hash function – that means trying around 4 billion possibilities and that's within range for brute force on a modern computer
< 1708634036 957243 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :So you have f^n(0) = f^2n(0)
< 1708634045 597181 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the memory-efficient way to do it is to just iterate hashes until you find a repeat
< 1708634051 407620 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :But the latter is also f^n(f^n(0))
< 1708634069 467373 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that's the core of it maybe?
< 1708634093 465723 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yep, the idea is that you start with something that isn't a valid output from the hash function (but is a valid input)
< 1708634106 817492 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you take n steps from 0 you'll reach the same point as if you take n steps from f^n(0)
< 1708634118 419571 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :So you can do it one at a time until you see the collision.
< 1708634122 95206 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so once you see the same hash twice, it's guaranteed that at least two copies of it came from different preimages
< 1708634153 825419 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :In practice I think the distinguished point method is usually much better.
< 1708634169 631253 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also typing all this on a phone keyboard is awful
< 1708634173 64279 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, it worked (and the search didn't even take that long)
< 1708634178 764232 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: sure, mostly because it can be parallelized
< 1708634218 606750 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Right, though it also doesn't require as many computations of the function.
< 1708634226 765046 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(it's for collisions, of course... not cycles) lambdas vs. rhos...
< 1708634241 725826 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1708634261 390488 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right, if you want a cycle I guess it's harder to parallelize!
< 1708634266 909263 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: right but that's a small constant factor. the parallelization is the more important win.
< 1708634359 84528 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway I suspect we discussed all this at length a few years ago in the context of maybe breaking Data.Typeable? But 2^64 hashes just isn't a casual project, and the fast differential attacks don't seem to apply.
< 1708634388 269320 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :For sure
< 1708634434 546159 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Man, how expensive are 2^64 hashes on modern GPUs?
< 1708634577 30750 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :dunno, here's a data point: https://gist.github.com/Chick3nman/e1417339accfbb0b040bcd0a0a9c6d54#file-h100_pcie_v6-2-6-benchmark-L33
< 1708634607 362297 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :6.7 years of that... enjoy
< 1708634866 907941 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Apparently that GPU only costs a few tens of thousands of dollars.
< 1708634878 554916 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :That seems too slow actually... my 1060 reports 13147 MH/s.
< 1708635177 414623 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*nod* yes, all those things you say above
< 1708635198 509485 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or maybe the H100 just sucks for integer arithmetic
< 1708635233 334569 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see a report for 3080 where it's 54940.5 MH/s
< 1708635303 545169 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway... even if it were 10 times faster it still wouldn't quite be a hobby project :P
< 1708635388 249165 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think my friend has a few 3090s he's not really using right now.
< 1708635436 567716 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I guess that's not really enough.
< 1708635560 979581 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :How much does a 3080 year cost?
< 1708635623 627009 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Not going to compute it on my phone, but it sounds like you'd need ~10 of them?
< 1708635660 971097 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :To do this in a year? Yeah it's in that ballpark. There's a lot of uncertainty of course because hashcat is not looking for collisions.
< 1708635684 488396 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :You'd need 10 GPU years, I mean.
< 1708635714 863774 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes.
< 1708635730 274356 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But it can easily be off by a factor of 2, maybe even 3.
< 1708635773 113293 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right.
< 1708635784 621324 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Our f() has to re-encode a hash as UTF-32 made up of identifier friendly letters somehow. And probably has to hash 2 blocks...)
< 1708635818 155790 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sounds like a 5-figure project probably?
< 1708635835 886180 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah
< 1708635868 963926 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's a bit much just to be able to comment on my bug report telling them to switch to another hash.
< 1708635874 48187 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is this something that can just be changed in a later ghc version? or does ghc come with some strong cross-version binary compatibility guarantees that make that hard?
< 1708635893 746472 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nah they can just change this
< 1708635915 64823 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ghc doesn't even have ABI guarantees for the same library compiled twice by the same compiler
< 1708636010 749204 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: ok, but maybe they also have some kind of serialization thing for writing data into a file and the format for that needs to stay compatible, at least in the sense that it can read back existing files
< 1708636026 692089 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :On the previous topic, there's also another algorithm for finding cycles that's supposed to be better, right?
< 1708636051 982650 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Better than the tortoise and hare one, I mean.
< 1708636083 445338 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: there's a version that uses exponential backup, checking f(2^n) = f(2^n + k) for 0 < k < 2^n. (different f)
< 1708636085 257135 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: sure, if the stepping is expensive then store some or all the elements that you encounter in a hash table and look the new ones you meet
< 1708636103 196595 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but even that can only save time by a constant factor
< 1708636114 11486 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Right, that one.
< 1708636375 188528 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's kind of funny that people call the distinguished point algorithm "Pollard's Rho", given that it doesn't find a Rho, and that Pollard's original algorithm isn't able to use distinguished points.
< 1708636434 644655 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: I've seen the letter lambda being used (the picture being that you have two strands of iterated f-s that merge together)
< 1708636616 494440 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, I think that's better.
< 1708639942 275817 :PoserKiller!~PoserKill@2a00:23c7:e40a:4f01:2de6:16e9:6a45:7c0f JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] PoserKiller
< 1708640301 774252 :Koen_!~Koen@2a01:e34:ec7c:30:746a:6c40:b6b8:43bd JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
< 1708640840 104323 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1708641928 991638 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1708643024 835963 :hppavilion[1]!~hppavilio@33-21-178-69.gci.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1708643426 568278 :Thelie!~Thelie@185.66.193.31 QUIT :Quit: Leaving.
> 1708643799 982361 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Macro14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=123827&oldid=123796 5* 03None1 5* (+23) 10
< 1708643909 586642 :PoserKiller!~PoserKill@2a00:23c7:e40a:4f01:2de6:16e9:6a45:7c0f QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1708644232 763882 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=123828&oldid=123561 5* 03None1 5* (+34) 10/* Exp */
> 1708645828 898687 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Kleinesfilmrllchen 5*  10New user account
> 1708646329 633848 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Velato14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=123829&oldid=123692 5* 03Rottytooth 5* (+55) 10/* Commands */
> 1708646369 507089 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Velato14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=123830&oldid=123829 5* 03Rottytooth 5* (-1) 10/* Commands */