←2024-05-27 2024-05-28 2024-05-29→ ↑2024 ↑all
00:09:34 -!- amby has quit (Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement).
00:21:24 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
00:22:11 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
00:22:47 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
02:20:13 -!- wryl has quit (Quit: Receding.).
02:48:03 -!- Bowserinator_ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
02:48:19 -!- iovoid has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
02:48:31 -!- moony8922 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
03:28:55 -!- moony892 has joined.
03:33:36 -!- Bowserinator has joined.
03:33:44 -!- iovoid has joined.
03:34:08 -!- iovoid has changed nick to Guest8591.
03:38:18 -!- Guest8591 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:38:35 -!- iovoid has joined.
03:38:59 -!- iovoid has changed nick to Guest8740.
03:40:28 -!- Guest8740 has changed hostmask to iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid.
03:41:59 -!- Guest8740 has changed nick to iovoid.
03:51:15 -!- iovoid has quit (Quit: certfp expired :<).
03:51:35 -!- iovoid has joined.
03:51:59 -!- iovoid has changed nick to Guest8753.
03:53:54 -!- Guest8753 has quit (Client Quit).
03:56:17 -!- iovoid has joined.
03:56:41 -!- iovoid has changed nick to Guest38.
03:58:31 -!- Guest38 has changed hostmask to iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid.
03:59:05 -!- Guest38 has quit (Client Quit).
03:59:25 -!- iovoid has joined.
03:59:50 -!- iovoid has changed nick to Guest4187.
04:01:38 -!- Guest4187 has changed hostmask to iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid.
04:02:33 -!- Guest4187 has changed nick to iovoid.
04:02:37 -!- iovoid has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:02:57 -!- iovoid has joined.
05:18:34 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
05:18:53 -!- tromp has joined.
05:21:41 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
05:28:48 -!- ais523 has joined.
05:30:06 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:34:58 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
05:58:03 -!- tromp has joined.
06:50:38 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:51:52 -!- ais523 has joined.
07:38:46 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:40:01 -!- ais523 has joined.
08:12:31 <esolangs> [[3 Bits, 1.5 Bytes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=128894 * MihaiEso * (+2816) Created a new esolang!
08:14:12 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128895&oldid=128265 * MihaiEso * (+75) Added a joke language to the list...
08:15:07 <esolangs> [[User:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128896&oldid=128884 * MihaiEso * (+97) Added a joke language to my list...
08:20:33 <esolangs> [[3 Bits, 1.5 Bytes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128897&oldid=128894 * MihaiEso * (+9) OR, XOR and NAND require 2 values, not 1.
08:28:53 -!- visilii has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
08:30:43 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128898&oldid=128872 * MihaiEso * (+113) /* Bitwise XOR OR AND */
08:34:44 <esolangs> [[Donald Knuth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128899&oldid=63327 * B jonas * (+97)
09:00:00 <esolangs> [[Donald Knuth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128900&oldid=128899 * Ais523 * (-1) fix typo, capitalise INTERCAL
09:36:37 -!- __monty__ has joined.
09:57:23 <esolangs> [[James M. Lyon]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=128901 * None1 * (+88) Created page with "{{Stub}} James M. Lyon is the person who invented [[INTERCAL]] with [[Donald R. Woods]]."
09:58:55 <esolangs> [[James M. Lyon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128902&oldid=128901 * None1 * (+20)
10:00:30 <esolangs> [[INTERCAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128903&oldid=127609 * None1 * (+4) Undo revision 127609 by [[Special:Contributions/None1|None1]] ([[User talk:None1|talk]])
10:05:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:3 Bits, 1.5 Bytes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=128904 * None1 * (+161) Created page with "You only have 12 bits (4 triple bits) of memory, so how can you <code>ACT 100b</code>? --~~~~"
10:14:05 <esolangs> [[2 Bits, 1 Byte]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128905&oldid=118855 * None1 * (+121) /* Quine */
10:46:09 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
10:51:37 -!- tromp has joined.
11:19:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:3 Bits, 1.5 Bytes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128906&oldid=128904 * MihaiEso * (+222)
11:26:07 <esolangs> [[Cold Hard Chess]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128907&oldid=128891 * MihaiEso * (+77) Better
11:28:29 <esolangs> [[Windows 1.0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128908&oldid=128879 * MihaiEso * (+15) /* Computational class */ Added Hanzifuck.
11:30:25 <esolangs> [[User talk:Rdebath]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128909&oldid=43703 * MihaiEso * (+198) /* Thanks for giving the Ruby interpreter! */ new section
11:31:51 <esolangs> [[BRaInFUCK]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128910&oldid=127465 * MihaiEso * (+4) Better!
11:35:13 <esolangs> [[3 Bits, 1.5 Bytes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128911&oldid=128897 * MihaiEso * (+2) Oops, it's unimplemented. Interpreters: To do.
11:41:16 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
11:43:19 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * 114514 * New user account
11:47:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ENCOUNTE192US * New user account
11:52:14 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jannes * New user account
11:54:31 -!- tromp has joined.
12:26:18 <esolangs> [[MLang (Mihai Popa)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=128912 * MihaiEso * (+2699) Brought mLang back to life!
12:28:19 <esolangs> [[User:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128913&oldid=128896 * MihaiEso * (+155) Added a esolang to my list...
12:29:20 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128914&oldid=128877 * MihaiEso * (+31) Added a esolang to the list...
12:36:35 <esolangs> [[MLang (Mihai Popa)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128915&oldid=128912 * MihaiEso * (+33) Not to be confused with "MLang", a language based on MLA8 citations (quotes).
12:37:39 <esolangs> [[MLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128916&oldid=79407 * MihaiEso * (+46) Not to be confused with "mLang", a simplistic language made by me (Mihai Popa)!
12:42:09 -!- Hooloovoo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
12:43:22 -!- Hooloovoo has joined.
12:52:31 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128917&oldid=128888 * Jannes * (+230)
12:52:45 <esolangs> [[Metac]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=128918 * Jannes * (+8759) Created page with "{{Stub}} {{infobox proglang |name=MetaC |author=[[User:Jannes|Jannes]] |year=[[:Category:2024|2024]] |dimensions=one-dimensional |class=[[:Category:Meta Turing-complete|Meta Turing-complete]] |influence=[[Brainfuck]], [[MetaGolfScript]] |files=.c }} '''MetaC''' is a family
12:53:38 <esolangs> [[Metac]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128919&oldid=128918 * Jannes * (-8)
12:54:21 <esolangs> [[Metac]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128920&oldid=128919 * Jannes * (+36)
13:04:17 <esolangs> [[Metac]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128921&oldid=128920 * Jannes * (-35)
13:09:39 <esolangs> [[User talk:Jannes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=128922 * MihaiEso * (+185) Created page with "Create your first user page! A user page is a page with some info about yourself, your esolangs, etc... ~~~~"
13:27:49 -!- amby has joined.
13:29:42 -!- wib_jonas has joined.
13:47:40 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
14:01:38 -!- tromp has joined.
14:13:51 <esolangs> [[Metac]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128923&oldid=128921 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+17) Infobox, categories
14:16:32 <esolangs> [[Befreege]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=128924 * PrySigneToFry * (+3036) Created page with "{{WIP}} Befreege is an Esolang invented by PSTF. You're free to edit this Esolang. == Requirements for commands == # No joke commands # No uncomputable commands # <big><big>Half-width characters only</big></big> # <big><big>Must only 1 character</big></big> ==
14:16:58 <esolangs> [[Befreege]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128925&oldid=128924 * PrySigneToFry * (+2)
14:17:34 <esolangs> [[Befreege]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128926&oldid=128925 * PrySigneToFry * (-27)
14:18:14 <esolangs> [[Befreege]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128927&oldid=128926 * PrySigneToFry * (+2)
14:24:45 <esolangs> [[Talk:3 Bits, 1.5 Bytes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128928&oldid=128906 * None1 * (+166)
14:36:25 -!- simcop2387 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
14:36:25 -!- perlbot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
14:40:37 -!- simcop2387 has joined.
14:41:04 <esolangs> [[Category:Three-dimensional languages]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=128929 * PrySigneToFry * (+123) Created page with "The 3D programming language uses an IP pointer to sweep through the stereoscopic space to execute code, just like Trefunge."
14:42:11 -!- perlbot has joined.
14:47:47 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128930&oldid=128914 * PrySigneToFry * (+15)
14:50:18 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128931&oldid=127485 * PrySigneToFry * (+25)
14:53:16 <esolangs> [[Talk:3 Bits, 1.5 Bytes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128932&oldid=128928 * MihaiEso * (+156)
14:59:13 <esolangs> [[Talk:3 Bits, 3 Bytes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128933&oldid=118865 * MihaiEso * (+219) /* Add disassembled version of Output any character. */ new section
15:02:11 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128934&oldid=128825 * PrySigneToFry * (+1874)
15:14:42 -!- sbak has joined.
15:49:18 <esolangs> [[User talk:EvyLah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128935&oldid=123905 * EvyLah * (+121) /* hi */ new section
16:38:20 -!- sbak has quit (Quit: Leaving).
16:42:29 -!- wib_jonas has quit (Quit: Client closed).
17:29:53 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
18:18:01 -!- tromp has joined.
18:34:14 <esolangs> [[User talk:EvyLah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128936&oldid=128935 * EvyLah * (+178) adfaesfpoijasefpoijasef
18:40:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Coder07 * New user account
18:58:16 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128937&oldid=128917 * Coder07 * (+252) my introduction
19:05:01 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
19:05:06 -!- Bowserinator_ has joined.
19:05:42 <esolangs> [[GDLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128938&oldid=123584 * EvyLah * (+527) I wrote this on my DS because goguardian blocked like every website on my chromebook
19:08:42 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * PythonshellDebugwindow * moved [[Metac]] to [[MetaC]]: Fix capitalisation
19:09:34 <esolangs> [[SnailTrail]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128941&oldid=110902 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+88) Categories
19:13:31 -!- sbak has joined.
19:27:04 <zzo38> Maybe I should somehow fix bystand so that you can display multiple articles in split-screen, so that you can review one or more other articles while you are editing one of them
19:27:41 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Category:Three-dimensional languages]]": category created without discussion; redundant to the existing [[Category:Multi-dimensional languages]]; description was specific to one language, not generic like a category description should be
19:30:44 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128942&oldid=127865 * Ais523 * (+441) /* Unapproved categories */ please stop, you were continuing even after being warned, if you continue after this second warning you will quite possibly be blocked
19:31:06 <ais523> it's only a few years ago that I realised just how badly Esolang needs the category rule
19:39:50 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128943&oldid=128846 * Coder07 * (+279)
19:41:29 <sbak> good lord that sandbox page
19:43:42 <ais523> feel free to clean it up
19:43:51 <ais523> I have been considering doing it myself
19:44:12 <ais523> but quite a lot of it does look like genuine editing tests
19:44:34 <sbak> that is true, it looks rather chaotic though
19:44:48 <sbak> in terms of unfunny jokes
19:46:07 <sbak> but that's not such a big problem, I mostly thought it was funny
19:51:50 <esolangs> [[Font]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128944&oldid=122801 * Zzo38 * (+73) Remove categories; this is not a programming language and those categories are not applicable for a list of fonts. Also add zzo38
19:52:49 <ais523> OK, so now this has got me thinking about to what extent you could program using fonts
19:53:12 <ais523> I think at least TrueType is very complicated, possibly there's computational power there
19:54:00 <zzo38> Yes, I think it is possible (I think I have seen somewhere, a Pokemon game with TrueType)
19:57:26 <ais523> hmm, I am busy thinking about the weird aspect of copyright law in which bitmap fonts are not copyrightable at all in the US (they all become public domain automatically)
19:59:05 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
19:59:39 <b_jonas> ais523: I think there was some esolang or esoimplementation that compiled something to something related to fonts...
20:00:41 <ais523> I did seriously look into making a custom font for an esolang, at one point, but failed mostly because I couldn't decide on the semantics of the esolang itself (which the font was meant to represent)
20:01:07 <ais523> also, some aspect of the font toolchain had problems lining up a line that was meant to continue from one character to the next, box-drawing-character style
20:01:28 <esolangs> [[Spin4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128945&oldid=123920 * Michael * (+57) /* Concepts */
20:02:14 <zzo38> I don't know what is the difference in Canada of that copyright issues
20:03:06 <zzo38> What font toolchain has that problem?
20:03:12 <b_jonas> found it
20:03:14 <esolangs> [[Spin4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128946&oldid=128945 * Michael * (+13) /* Rotation for +/2 */
20:03:28 <b_jonas> ais523: it's in Sigbovik 2021 proceedings, called "A full video game in a font: Fontemon!"
20:03:42 <ais523> zzo38: it was a font generation website
20:03:47 <ais523> which did all the work itself
20:04:07 <esolangs> [[Stroke]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=128947 * Ttulka * (+12557) init stroke
20:04:15 -!- tromp has joined.
20:05:04 <b_jonas> they compiled code to a font by magic
20:06:16 <b_jonas> ah no
20:06:32 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128948&oldid=128930 * Ttulka * (+13) /* S */ add Stroke
20:06:33 <b_jonas> apparently it's a finite state machine with each of the finitely many states precomputed
20:06:37 <b_jonas> sorry, false alarm
20:06:49 <b_jonas> I thought it did more than that
20:07:03 <ais523> b_jonas: well, isn't Pokémon itself a finite state machine?
20:08:12 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but one with much more states than you could list one by one in a font file
20:09:37 <zzo38> Yes, although the number of states in Pokemon is large, although I think the font file is meant to simulate only specific battles so that greatly reduces the number of states
20:10:02 <ais523> you've suddenly made me think of "choose your own adventure" books as finite state machines
20:10:09 <ais523> the states are even numbered, usually
20:11:11 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but I think some choose your own adventures books have more state than what they explicitly list in books, as in the instruction after a state could tell you that something happens differently depending on some previous choice.
20:12:06 <b_jonas> so they can have "hidden states"
20:14:53 <zzo38> It can also be considered as keeping track of the history as the state (and this is also applicable to some cards in Magic: the Gathering)
20:15:20 <ais523> zzo38: hmm, I thought Wizards intentionally tried to avoid doing that nowadays, although of course it's possible in the rules
20:15:23 <ais523> do you have some cards in mind?
20:15:50 <ais523> (on the other hand, Yu-Gi-Oh! does it frequently and intentionally – even for cards in your graveyard you often have to remember how, and sometimes when, they got there)
20:17:50 <zzo38> Control Win Condition (although that card is not legal in any format)
20:18:26 <ais523> that sounds like a mystery booster playtest card to me, they often do weird things like that
20:18:34 <ais523> `card-by-name Control Win Condition
20:18:36 <HackEso> No output.
20:19:09 <ais523> ah yes: https://scryfall.com/card/cmb2/19/control-win-condition
20:19:16 <ais523> "Control Win Condition’s power and toughness are each equal to the number of turns you’ve taken this game."
20:20:06 <b_jonas> yeah, that's a good example, it makes you look back longer than say https://scryfall.com/card/10e/165/no-rest-for-the-wicked
20:20:52 <ais523> oh, Monstrosity also has hidden state
20:21:13 <ais523> `card-by-name Polukranos, World Easter
20:21:15 <HackEso> No output.
20:21:15 <ais523> `card-by-name Polukranos, World Eater
20:21:17 <HackEso> Polukranos, World Eater \ 2GG \ Legendary Creature -- Hydra \ 5/5 \ {X}{X}{G}: Monstrosity X. (If this creature isn't monstrous, put X +1/+1 counters on it and it becomes monstrous.) \ When Polukranos, World Eater becomes monstrous, it deals X damage divided as you choose among any number of target creatures your opponents control. Each of those creatures deals damage equal to its power to Polukranos. \ THS-M, DDL-M
20:21:37 <ais523> although, at least you're told about the state at the point where you would first have to track it
20:21:51 <zzo38> It isn't hidden; it is a designation.
20:24:09 <zzo38> (You can figure out by yourself how you wish to keep track of such designations, and how to keep track of other stuff.)
20:29:05 <b_jonas> in theory you're told of all the cards with their Oracle texts and all the rules, so you know what you have to remember and what you don't.
20:29:49 <b_jonas> IIRC the tournament rules even specifies that only the latest rules at the start of a tournament matter, rules changes published during the tournament don't come into effect, so they can't surprise you that way
20:30:07 <b_jonas> though of course you could just remember everything that happened
20:30:40 <b_jonas> which is practical for reviews in case you found you made a mistake maintaining the game state, or for later to review the game to improve strategy
20:35:03 <ais523> there have been problems (recently, even) in which players weren't prepared for a card they stole from the opponents' deck
20:35:43 <ais523> in fact there was recently a wide-ranging ban in Legacy of a lot of cards that had that sort of problem (one of which was in a top-tier deck and another of which was fringe-playable)
20:35:44 <b_jonas> I also wanted to ask about an off-topic thing but now I don't know if I want to interrupt
20:36:03 <ais523> go for it, most IRC users can hold multiple conversations in parallel
20:37:46 <esolangs> [[Stroke]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128949&oldid=128947 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+52) Categories
20:41:42 <b_jonas> this one is about chemistry. so there's this thing taught in old textbooks, which is that in the middle ages alchemists (no doubt inspired by Aristotle) thought that living beings used different rules than the non-living world, and in particular only living beings can create organic compounds from non-organic ones, but then in the 19th century it became clear that this was not so and there's no real
20:41:48 <b_jonas> difference between organic and inorganic chemistry. and the deciding discovery that they cite for this is Wöhler synthetizing urea from ammonium-cyanite in 1828.
20:42:48 <ais523> I think electricity was once also considered specific to living beings
20:42:56 <b_jonas> so our teachers supported this and said that organic vs inorganic chemistry is a silly distinction and there's really only one chemistry, and maybe it's like a scam so that chemists can have two univesity departments and more funding or something; regardless whether it was specifically Wöhler's experiment that proved this
20:43:33 <b_jonas> also that the old believe that only living beings can create organic compounds from inorganic was called "vitalism"
20:43:40 <ais523> I think organic vs. inorganic chemistry is possibly silly *names*, but the actual branches of chemistry are somewhat different
20:43:58 <b_jonas> but as far as I understand *now*, it seems that those childhood books and teachers were wrong and vitalism is actually stronger than everf
20:44:55 <ais523> a classic biology experiment is demonstrating just how much more efficient living beings are at breaking down hydrogen peroxide than chemical catalysts are
20:45:14 <b_jonas> because even though we found out that creating organic compounds isn't technically specific to living beings, we also found that either capturing carbon from carbon-dioxide (in the atmosphere, or in carbonates) into organic compounds is HARD, and living beings do it much better than any way we can,
20:45:20 <ais523> although, it doesn't need actual life to do, just an enzyme that doesn't need to be part of a living creature (but it is much more complicated than the catalysts would be)
20:46:04 <ais523> I am not sure that this is offtopic – DNA/RNA are basically programming languages
20:46:37 <ais523> which make it possible to synthesize proteins that can act in much more specific ways than "enumerate simple compounds and hope that one of them does what you want"
20:47:02 <b_jonas> and *also* sequestering nitrogen from nitrogen gas to organic compounds is HARD, and living beings do it much more efficiently
20:47:33 <b_jonas> and I used to think that these (carbon sequestration and nitrogen fixation) are two different vitalisms, but it turns out they are just one and a half:
20:48:40 <b_jonas> because it turns out that we (as in our civilization) do large-scale industrial nitrogen capture to make ammonia, it's kind of energy intensive, but it actually uses hydrogen that's made from organic sources and so consumes carbon sequestration, and doing it without that would be even more difficult and energy intensive
20:49:17 <b_jonas> so basically we still use living beings to capture the carbon, but then we use an abiological process to trade that carbon capture to nitrogen fixation
20:49:53 <b_jonas> but even then just one vitalism, capturing carbon *or* nitrogen from the air seems like is close to the domain of living beings only, and is very hard to fake
20:49:57 <ais523> b_jonas: well, the hydrogen peroxide experiment makes me think that it isn't about organic versus inorganic compounds, but rather protein-based versus simple-molecule catalysts
20:50:03 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
20:51:22 <b_jonas> I also find the Wöhler experiment as a supposed milestone very suspicious, because it uses both ammonium and cyanite, and while we may regard those as inorganic, you do need nitrogen fixation and carbon capture to actually make it, so it's more like the alchemists just determined what's organic and inorganic a bit inaccurately
20:52:31 -!- tromp has joined.
20:53:02 <b_jonas> so you could actually draw the boundary in multiple places, it might be better to consider ammonia inorgnaic and only count carbon sequestration as the magic of living beings; or you could count carbon or nitrogen capture in which case ammonia is organic
20:58:43 <b_jonas> though there's at least one part that I still don't understand. as far as I understand if you really want to build organic compounds without living beings then the route is this: (1) first you make hydrogen by electrolyzing water, (2) then you mix carbon dioxide with that hydrogen and get very angry with it and use some metal catalysts until it gives up and turns into carbon monoxide, then (3) you
20:58:49 <b_jonas> separate the carbon monoxide and mix it with more hydrogen and again get very angry with it and use metal catalysts until it gives up and turns into methanol. my question is, how much of the magic that living beings do much better is in each of the three steps? obviously they don't use this specific routes, and you can use other routes too, but I mean if you give me (1) free hydrogen or (2) free
20:58:55 <b_jonas> hydrogen and free carbon monoxide then how much closer does that get me to generating organic compounds without the help of living beings?
20:59:13 <b_jonas> is one of those three steps the key to vitalism, and which one, or is it more than one of those steps?
21:01:10 <ais523> 2) seems very hard to me without starting from something that was once living
21:02:54 <sbak> all of those steps sound quite costly in terms of energy
21:03:11 <b_jonas> I see
21:03:26 <sbak> (layman's perspective)
21:07:15 <b_jonas> another confusing part is Titan the moon, which has lots of methane and ammonia that was created without biology.
21:07:48 <sbak> could be similar processes
21:11:42 <esolangs> [[Stroke]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128950&oldid=128949 * Ttulka * (+12) empty program
21:15:31 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
21:16:13 <sbak> @ pokemon being an FSM I'm trying to think of a mechanic in pokemon that needs something like a pushdown stack to simulate but coming up short
21:16:47 <sbak> ridiculous amount of states though
21:17:50 <b_jonas> as there are gas giants like Jupiter that are mostly hydrogen out there, maybe how this works is that planets can spawn with captured carbon (eg. methane) or captured nitrogen (eg. ammonia), it's just that once they turn to carbon dioxide or nitrogen gas, it's hard to recapture them from those forms. this happened on Earth too, because life had to bootstrap somehow, and it had to use those precaptured
21:17:56 <b_jonas> forms of carbon and nitrogen to get created, it can't arise when those aren't available
21:18:29 -!- tromp has joined.
21:18:39 <zzo38> Pokemon does not use a stack, I think.
21:19:26 <ais523> in the card game there would be no point because you can't respond to things
21:19:49 <ais523> except possibly for the equivalent of triggered abilities
21:19:58 <sbak> not talking about a literal stack to be clear just something that requires more than a simple state machine to simulate
21:20:21 <ais523> (but Netrunner has lots of triggered abilities but does not have a stack, although interrupt windows end up acting in a stack-like way if they become nested somehow)
21:21:03 <ais523> the video game has some response-like things such as Pursuit and Stealth Rock, but the number of relevant combinations is small enough that hardcoding them all would be reasonable
21:21:36 <sbak> yes persistent state can just be encoded by multiplying the number of states by however many of those there are
21:21:39 <ais523> (and there have been some bugs that are weird enough to make me wonder if they were all coded individually)
21:22:07 <b_jonas> bugs in which video game?
21:23:11 <sbak> the funny thing about this is the The Pokemon Regular Expression exists
21:23:29 <sbak> s/is the/is that
21:24:32 <ais523> b_jonas: various Pokémon games
21:26:25 <ais523> I think gen 4's are most infamous: there is a glitch commonly known as "acid rain" which activates when Pursuit KOs a switching Pokémon during non-rain weather, and a glitch which permanently changes a Pokémon's moveset if it cancels using Rage while transformed
21:26:54 <sbak> gen 1 has a ton of infamous bugs too, many involving data read from beyond the end of relevant buffers
21:27:24 <ais523> I meant, in terms of combinations of moves in battle having weird, apparently unrelated effects
21:27:34 <sbak> gotcha
21:28:33 <ais523> the rage/transform one, at least, was eventually figured out (it was a reversed assignment which meant that the code that was meant to cancel rage instead turned off all the flags except rage, one of which is the flag to restore the original moveset of a transformed Pokémon as the battle ends)
21:28:47 <zzo38> Pokemon Regular Expression? I have not heard of that
21:29:34 <sbak> just saying that if pokemon combat can be encoded by a finite state machine, there is a corresponding regular expression (if we say accepting states are those where the battle is over)
21:30:38 <sbak> it would be a hilarious monster of a regular expression obviously
21:31:43 <zzo38> Yes, that is possible (although there might not be enough memory in the computer to do it that way)
21:32:14 -!- __monty__ has quit (Quit: leaving).
21:32:17 <sbak> with the amount of state-based mechanics in the game I'm fairly sure the exponential amount of states reaches googological amounts
21:33:27 <ais523> I don't think so – it runs on a games console, and so will be limited to double-exponential numbers of states at most (because games consoles have only single-exponential amounts of memory)
21:33:55 <sbak> I'm considering things like googolplex to be googological here
21:34:13 <sbak> which is a very broad meaning of the word, granted
21:34:31 <zzo38> Pokemon game does have hidden information and random stuff too, including players must enter commands simultaneously, and then order by priority and speed and are executed. State will involve non-volatile states (HP, PP, sleep, etc), stuff entered before battle is started (moves/abilities, effort values, etc), volatile effects, field effects (weather, entry hazards, etc), delayed effects, and more
21:35:10 <sbak> damage dealt is random in a range as well
21:36:04 <b_jonas> ais523: okay but wait, doesn't turning a deterministic finite state machine to a regular expression sometimes result in a regular expression of size exponential in the number of states?
21:36:58 <b_jonas> and in fact don't we expect that would happen if you consider the whole memory of something like a pokémon game as the state machine?
21:37:33 <sbak> so a double-exponential number of states, and a triple-exponential size of regular expression?
21:37:44 <ais523> b_jonas: I'm not sure – the other direction is exponential, that direction might be too I guess?
21:38:09 <ais523> even then, I tend to think of the smallest googological numbers as being decently-large exponent towers
21:38:23 <b_jonas> ais523: the other direction is exponential if you go to DFA but not if you go to NFA, right
21:38:39 <ais523> basically, anything that's beyond a viable computational complexity for an esolang :-)
21:38:50 <ais523> b_jonas: right, was thinking about DFAs
21:38:52 <b_jonas> a moment
21:42:09 <zzo38> Yes, damage is also random, and there is also accuracy, and attacking yourself due to confusion, sometimes you cannot attack due to paralysis, random chance of secondary effects, etc. It is not only the damage that is random.
21:43:04 <ais523> the damage randomization is comparatively minor compared to secondary effect randomness and status randomness
21:43:40 <ais523> competitively, if a particular KO is important to your team, you normally choose effort values so that you manage it even with a minimum damage roll
21:44:06 <ais523> or, quite frequently you would be doing well over 100% anyway so the randomness doesn't matter
21:44:23 <ais523> damage ranges can be relevant, but the other major randomness sources are more relevant
21:44:40 <ais523> (I think damage ranges are more important for speedrunners, who don't have as much control over their Pokémon's stats)
21:46:20 <b_jonas> found it, http://perso.enst.fr/~madore/inf105/notes-inf105.pdf 3.4.8 (on page 41) is where it explicitly states that the regular expression size can be exponential
22:06:25 <esolangs> [[C flat --]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=128951 * Coder07 * (+2202) Make page
22:09:05 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
22:28:38 -!- sbak has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:31:46 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:32:59 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Chuckling2 * New user account
22:37:21 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128952&oldid=128937 * Chuckling2 * (+117) /* Introductions */
22:42:28 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit).
22:51:50 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128953&oldid=128948 * Coder07 * (+16) /* C */ flat --
22:52:31 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128954&oldid=128943 * Chuckling2 * (-3)
23:23:33 <esolangs> [[Talk:3 Bits, 1.5 Bytes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128955&oldid=128932 * None1 * (+151)
23:27:44 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128956&oldid=128942 * None1 * (+263) /* Unapproved categories */
23:29:27 <esolangs> [[Befreege]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128957&oldid=128927 * None1 * (-42) /* Categories */ Remove
←2024-05-27 2024-05-28 2024-05-29→ ↑2024 ↑all