00:09:34 -!- amby has quit (Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement). 00:21:24 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 00:22:11 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 00:22:47 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 02:20:13 -!- wryl has quit (Quit: Receding.). 02:48:03 -!- Bowserinator_ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 02:48:19 -!- iovoid has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 02:48:31 -!- moony8922 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:28:55 -!- moony892 has joined. 03:33:36 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 03:33:44 -!- iovoid has joined. 03:34:08 -!- iovoid has changed nick to Guest8591. 03:38:18 -!- Guest8591 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:38:35 -!- iovoid has joined. 03:38:59 -!- iovoid has changed nick to Guest8740. 03:40:28 -!- Guest8740 has changed hostmask to iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid. 03:41:59 -!- Guest8740 has changed nick to iovoid. 03:51:15 -!- iovoid has quit (Quit: certfp expired :<). 03:51:35 -!- iovoid has joined. 03:51:59 -!- iovoid has changed nick to Guest8753. 03:53:54 -!- Guest8753 has quit (Client Quit). 03:56:17 -!- iovoid has joined. 03:56:41 -!- iovoid has changed nick to Guest38. 03:58:31 -!- Guest38 has changed hostmask to iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid. 03:59:05 -!- Guest38 has quit (Client Quit). 03:59:25 -!- iovoid has joined. 03:59:50 -!- iovoid has changed nick to Guest4187. 04:01:38 -!- Guest4187 has changed hostmask to iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid. 04:02:33 -!- Guest4187 has changed nick to iovoid. 04:02:37 -!- iovoid has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:02:57 -!- iovoid has joined. 05:18:34 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 05:18:53 -!- tromp has joined. 05:21:41 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:28:48 -!- ais523 has joined. 05:30:06 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:34:58 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 05:58:03 -!- tromp has joined. 06:50:38 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:51:52 -!- ais523 has joined. 07:38:46 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:40:01 -!- ais523 has joined. 08:12:31 [[3 Bits, 1.5 Bytes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=128894 * MihaiEso * (+2816) Created a new esolang! 08:14:12 [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128895&oldid=128265 * MihaiEso * (+75) Added a joke language to the list... 08:15:07 [[User:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128896&oldid=128884 * MihaiEso * (+97) Added a joke language to my list... 08:20:33 [[3 Bits, 1.5 Bytes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128897&oldid=128894 * MihaiEso * (+9) OR, XOR and NAND require 2 values, not 1. 08:28:53 -!- visilii has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:30:43 [[Talk:Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128898&oldid=128872 * MihaiEso * (+113) /* Bitwise XOR OR AND */ 08:34:44 [[Donald Knuth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128899&oldid=63327 * B jonas * (+97) 09:00:00 [[Donald Knuth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128900&oldid=128899 * Ais523 * (-1) fix typo, capitalise INTERCAL 09:36:37 -!- __monty__ has joined. 09:57:23 [[James M. Lyon]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=128901 * None1 * (+88) Created page with "{{Stub}} James M. Lyon is the person who invented [[INTERCAL]] with [[Donald R. Woods]]." 09:58:55 [[James M. Lyon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128902&oldid=128901 * None1 * (+20) 10:00:30 [[INTERCAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128903&oldid=127609 * None1 * (+4) Undo revision 127609 by [[Special:Contributions/None1|None1]] ([[User talk:None1|talk]]) 10:05:31 [[Talk:3 Bits, 1.5 Bytes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=128904 * None1 * (+161) Created page with "You only have 12 bits (4 triple bits) of memory, so how can you ACT 100b? --~~~~" 10:14:05 [[2 Bits, 1 Byte]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128905&oldid=118855 * None1 * (+121) /* Quine */ 10:46:09 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 10:51:37 -!- tromp has joined. 11:19:48 [[Talk:3 Bits, 1.5 Bytes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128906&oldid=128904 * MihaiEso * (+222) 11:26:07 [[Cold Hard Chess]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128907&oldid=128891 * MihaiEso * (+77) Better 11:28:29 [[Windows 1.0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128908&oldid=128879 * MihaiEso * (+15) /* Computational class */ Added Hanzifuck. 11:30:25 [[User talk:Rdebath]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128909&oldid=43703 * MihaiEso * (+198) /* Thanks for giving the Ruby interpreter! */ new section 11:31:51 [[BRaInFUCK]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128910&oldid=127465 * MihaiEso * (+4) Better! 11:35:13 [[3 Bits, 1.5 Bytes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128911&oldid=128897 * MihaiEso * (+2) Oops, it's unimplemented. Interpreters: To do. 11:41:16 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 11:43:19 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * 114514 * New user account 11:47:31 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ENCOUNTE192US * New user account 11:52:14 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jannes * New user account 11:54:31 -!- tromp has joined. 12:26:18 [[MLang (Mihai Popa)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=128912 * MihaiEso * (+2699) Brought mLang back to life! 12:28:19 [[User:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128913&oldid=128896 * MihaiEso * (+155) Added a esolang to my list... 12:29:20 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128914&oldid=128877 * MihaiEso * (+31) Added a esolang to the list... 12:36:35 [[MLang (Mihai Popa)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128915&oldid=128912 * MihaiEso * (+33) Not to be confused with "MLang", a language based on MLA8 citations (quotes). 12:37:39 [[MLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128916&oldid=79407 * MihaiEso * (+46) Not to be confused with "mLang", a simplistic language made by me (Mihai Popa)! 12:42:09 -!- Hooloovoo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:43:22 -!- Hooloovoo has joined. 12:52:31 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128917&oldid=128888 * Jannes * (+230) 12:52:45 [[Metac]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=128918 * Jannes * (+8759) Created page with "{{Stub}} {{infobox proglang |name=MetaC |author=[[User:Jannes|Jannes]] |year=[[:Category:2024|2024]] |dimensions=one-dimensional |class=[[:Category:Meta Turing-complete|Meta Turing-complete]] |influence=[[Brainfuck]], [[MetaGolfScript]] |files=.c }} '''MetaC''' is a family 12:53:38 [[Metac]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128919&oldid=128918 * Jannes * (-8) 12:54:21 [[Metac]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128920&oldid=128919 * Jannes * (+36) 13:04:17 [[Metac]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128921&oldid=128920 * Jannes * (-35) 13:09:39 [[User talk:Jannes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=128922 * MihaiEso * (+185) Created page with "Create your first user page! A user page is a page with some info about yourself, your esolangs, etc... ~~~~" 13:27:49 -!- amby has joined. 13:29:42 -!- wib_jonas has joined. 13:47:40 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 14:01:38 -!- tromp has joined. 14:13:51 [[Metac]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128923&oldid=128921 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+17) Infobox, categories 14:16:32 [[Befreege]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=128924 * PrySigneToFry * (+3036) Created page with "{{WIP}} Befreege is an Esolang invented by PSTF. You're free to edit this Esolang. == Requirements for commands == # No joke commands # No uncomputable commands # Half-width characters only # Must only 1 character == 14:16:58 [[Befreege]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128925&oldid=128924 * PrySigneToFry * (+2) 14:17:34 [[Befreege]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128926&oldid=128925 * PrySigneToFry * (-27) 14:18:14 [[Befreege]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128927&oldid=128926 * PrySigneToFry * (+2) 14:24:45 [[Talk:3 Bits, 1.5 Bytes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128928&oldid=128906 * None1 * (+166) 14:36:25 -!- simcop2387 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:36:25 -!- perlbot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:40:37 -!- simcop2387 has joined. 14:41:04 [[Category:Three-dimensional languages]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=128929 * PrySigneToFry * (+123) Created page with "The 3D programming language uses an IP pointer to sweep through the stereoscopic space to execute code, just like Trefunge." 14:42:11 -!- perlbot has joined. 14:47:47 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128930&oldid=128914 * PrySigneToFry * (+15) 14:50:18 [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128931&oldid=127485 * PrySigneToFry * (+25) 14:53:16 [[Talk:3 Bits, 1.5 Bytes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128932&oldid=128928 * MihaiEso * (+156) 14:59:13 [[Talk:3 Bits, 3 Bytes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128933&oldid=118865 * MihaiEso * (+219) /* Add disassembled version of Output any character. */ new section 15:02:11 [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128934&oldid=128825 * PrySigneToFry * (+1874) 15:14:42 -!- sbak has joined. 15:49:18 [[User talk:EvyLah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128935&oldid=123905 * EvyLah * (+121) /* hi */ new section 16:38:20 -!- sbak has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:42:29 -!- wib_jonas has quit (Quit: Client closed). 17:29:53 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 18:18:01 -!- tromp has joined. 18:34:14 [[User talk:EvyLah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128936&oldid=128935 * EvyLah * (+178) adfaesfpoijasefpoijasef 18:40:52 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Coder07 * New user account 18:58:16 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128937&oldid=128917 * Coder07 * (+252) my introduction 19:05:01 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:05:06 -!- Bowserinator_ has joined. 19:05:42 [[GDLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128938&oldid=123584 * EvyLah * (+527) I wrote this on my DS because goguardian blocked like every website on my chromebook 19:08:42 [[Special:Log/move]] move * PythonshellDebugwindow * moved [[Metac]] to [[MetaC]]: Fix capitalisation 19:09:34 [[SnailTrail]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128941&oldid=110902 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+88) Categories 19:13:31 -!- sbak has joined. 19:27:04 Maybe I should somehow fix bystand so that you can display multiple articles in split-screen, so that you can review one or more other articles while you are editing one of them 19:27:41 [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Category:Three-dimensional languages]]": category created without discussion; redundant to the existing [[Category:Multi-dimensional languages]]; description was specific to one language, not generic like a category description should be 19:30:44 [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128942&oldid=127865 * Ais523 * (+441) /* Unapproved categories */ please stop, you were continuing even after being warned, if you continue after this second warning you will quite possibly be blocked 19:31:06 it's only a few years ago that I realised just how badly Esolang needs the category rule 19:39:50 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128943&oldid=128846 * Coder07 * (+279) 19:41:29 good lord that sandbox page 19:43:42 feel free to clean it up 19:43:51 I have been considering doing it myself 19:44:12 but quite a lot of it does look like genuine editing tests 19:44:34 that is true, it looks rather chaotic though 19:44:48 in terms of unfunny jokes 19:46:07 but that's not such a big problem, I mostly thought it was funny 19:51:50 [[Font]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128944&oldid=122801 * Zzo38 * (+73) Remove categories; this is not a programming language and those categories are not applicable for a list of fonts. Also add zzo38 19:52:49 OK, so now this has got me thinking about to what extent you could program using fonts 19:53:12 I think at least TrueType is very complicated, possibly there's computational power there 19:54:00 Yes, I think it is possible (I think I have seen somewhere, a Pokemon game with TrueType) 19:57:26 hmm, I am busy thinking about the weird aspect of copyright law in which bitmap fonts are not copyrightable at all in the US (they all become public domain automatically) 19:59:05 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 19:59:39 ais523: I think there was some esolang or esoimplementation that compiled something to something related to fonts... 20:00:41 I did seriously look into making a custom font for an esolang, at one point, but failed mostly because I couldn't decide on the semantics of the esolang itself (which the font was meant to represent) 20:01:07 also, some aspect of the font toolchain had problems lining up a line that was meant to continue from one character to the next, box-drawing-character style 20:01:28 [[Spin4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128945&oldid=123920 * Michael * (+57) /* Concepts */ 20:02:14 I don't know what is the difference in Canada of that copyright issues 20:03:06 What font toolchain has that problem? 20:03:12 found it 20:03:14 [[Spin4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128946&oldid=128945 * Michael * (+13) /* Rotation for +/2 */ 20:03:28 ais523: it's in Sigbovik 2021 proceedings, called "A full video game in a font: Fontemon!" 20:03:42 zzo38: it was a font generation website 20:03:47 which did all the work itself 20:04:07 [[Stroke]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=128947 * Ttulka * (+12557) init stroke 20:04:15 -!- tromp has joined. 20:05:04 they compiled code to a font by magic 20:06:16 ah no 20:06:32 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128948&oldid=128930 * Ttulka * (+13) /* S */ add Stroke 20:06:33 apparently it's a finite state machine with each of the finitely many states precomputed 20:06:37 sorry, false alarm 20:06:49 I thought it did more than that 20:07:03 b_jonas: well, isn't Pokémon itself a finite state machine? 20:08:12 ais523: yes, but one with much more states than you could list one by one in a font file 20:09:37 Yes, although the number of states in Pokemon is large, although I think the font file is meant to simulate only specific battles so that greatly reduces the number of states 20:10:02 you've suddenly made me think of "choose your own adventure" books as finite state machines 20:10:09 the states are even numbered, usually 20:11:11 ais523: yes, but I think some choose your own adventures books have more state than what they explicitly list in books, as in the instruction after a state could tell you that something happens differently depending on some previous choice. 20:12:06 so they can have "hidden states" 20:14:53 It can also be considered as keeping track of the history as the state (and this is also applicable to some cards in Magic: the Gathering) 20:15:20 zzo38: hmm, I thought Wizards intentionally tried to avoid doing that nowadays, although of course it's possible in the rules 20:15:23 do you have some cards in mind? 20:15:50 (on the other hand, Yu-Gi-Oh! does it frequently and intentionally – even for cards in your graveyard you often have to remember how, and sometimes when, they got there) 20:17:50 Control Win Condition (although that card is not legal in any format) 20:18:26 that sounds like a mystery booster playtest card to me, they often do weird things like that 20:18:34 `card-by-name Control Win Condition 20:18:36 No output. 20:19:09 ah yes: https://scryfall.com/card/cmb2/19/control-win-condition 20:19:16 "Control Win Condition’s power and toughness are each equal to the number of turns you’ve taken this game." 20:20:06 yeah, that's a good example, it makes you look back longer than say https://scryfall.com/card/10e/165/no-rest-for-the-wicked 20:20:52 oh, Monstrosity also has hidden state 20:21:13 `card-by-name Polukranos, World Easter 20:21:15 No output. 20:21:15 `card-by-name Polukranos, World Eater 20:21:17 Polukranos, World Eater \ 2GG \ Legendary Creature -- Hydra \ 5/5 \ {X}{X}{G}: Monstrosity X. (If this creature isn't monstrous, put X +1/+1 counters on it and it becomes monstrous.) \ When Polukranos, World Eater becomes monstrous, it deals X damage divided as you choose among any number of target creatures your opponents control. Each of those creatures deals damage equal to its power to Polukranos. \ THS-M, DDL-M 20:21:37 although, at least you're told about the state at the point where you would first have to track it 20:21:51 It isn't hidden; it is a designation. 20:24:09 (You can figure out by yourself how you wish to keep track of such designations, and how to keep track of other stuff.) 20:29:05 in theory you're told of all the cards with their Oracle texts and all the rules, so you know what you have to remember and what you don't. 20:29:49 IIRC the tournament rules even specifies that only the latest rules at the start of a tournament matter, rules changes published during the tournament don't come into effect, so they can't surprise you that way 20:30:07 though of course you could just remember everything that happened 20:30:40 which is practical for reviews in case you found you made a mistake maintaining the game state, or for later to review the game to improve strategy 20:35:03 there have been problems (recently, even) in which players weren't prepared for a card they stole from the opponents' deck 20:35:43 in fact there was recently a wide-ranging ban in Legacy of a lot of cards that had that sort of problem (one of which was in a top-tier deck and another of which was fringe-playable) 20:35:44 I also wanted to ask about an off-topic thing but now I don't know if I want to interrupt 20:36:03 go for it, most IRC users can hold multiple conversations in parallel 20:37:46 [[Stroke]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128949&oldid=128947 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+52) Categories 20:41:42 this one is about chemistry. so there's this thing taught in old textbooks, which is that in the middle ages alchemists (no doubt inspired by Aristotle) thought that living beings used different rules than the non-living world, and in particular only living beings can create organic compounds from non-organic ones, but then in the 19th century it became clear that this was not so and there's no real 20:41:48 difference between organic and inorganic chemistry. and the deciding discovery that they cite for this is Wöhler synthetizing urea from ammonium-cyanite in 1828. 20:42:48 I think electricity was once also considered specific to living beings 20:42:56 so our teachers supported this and said that organic vs inorganic chemistry is a silly distinction and there's really only one chemistry, and maybe it's like a scam so that chemists can have two univesity departments and more funding or something; regardless whether it was specifically Wöhler's experiment that proved this 20:43:33 also that the old believe that only living beings can create organic compounds from inorganic was called "vitalism" 20:43:40 I think organic vs. inorganic chemistry is possibly silly *names*, but the actual branches of chemistry are somewhat different 20:43:58 but as far as I understand *now*, it seems that those childhood books and teachers were wrong and vitalism is actually stronger than everf 20:44:55 a classic biology experiment is demonstrating just how much more efficient living beings are at breaking down hydrogen peroxide than chemical catalysts are 20:45:14 because even though we found out that creating organic compounds isn't technically specific to living beings, we also found that either capturing carbon from carbon-dioxide (in the atmosphere, or in carbonates) into organic compounds is HARD, and living beings do it much better than any way we can, 20:45:20 although, it doesn't need actual life to do, just an enzyme that doesn't need to be part of a living creature (but it is much more complicated than the catalysts would be) 20:46:04 I am not sure that this is offtopic – DNA/RNA are basically programming languages 20:46:37 which make it possible to synthesize proteins that can act in much more specific ways than "enumerate simple compounds and hope that one of them does what you want" 20:47:02 and *also* sequestering nitrogen from nitrogen gas to organic compounds is HARD, and living beings do it much more efficiently 20:47:33 and I used to think that these (carbon sequestration and nitrogen fixation) are two different vitalisms, but it turns out they are just one and a half: 20:48:40 because it turns out that we (as in our civilization) do large-scale industrial nitrogen capture to make ammonia, it's kind of energy intensive, but it actually uses hydrogen that's made from organic sources and so consumes carbon sequestration, and doing it without that would be even more difficult and energy intensive 20:49:17 so basically we still use living beings to capture the carbon, but then we use an abiological process to trade that carbon capture to nitrogen fixation 20:49:53 but even then just one vitalism, capturing carbon *or* nitrogen from the air seems like is close to the domain of living beings only, and is very hard to fake 20:49:57 b_jonas: well, the hydrogen peroxide experiment makes me think that it isn't about organic versus inorganic compounds, but rather protein-based versus simple-molecule catalysts 20:50:03 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 20:51:22 I also find the Wöhler experiment as a supposed milestone very suspicious, because it uses both ammonium and cyanite, and while we may regard those as inorganic, you do need nitrogen fixation and carbon capture to actually make it, so it's more like the alchemists just determined what's organic and inorganic a bit inaccurately 20:52:31 -!- tromp has joined. 20:53:02 so you could actually draw the boundary in multiple places, it might be better to consider ammonia inorgnaic and only count carbon sequestration as the magic of living beings; or you could count carbon or nitrogen capture in which case ammonia is organic 20:58:43 though there's at least one part that I still don't understand. as far as I understand if you really want to build organic compounds without living beings then the route is this: (1) first you make hydrogen by electrolyzing water, (2) then you mix carbon dioxide with that hydrogen and get very angry with it and use some metal catalysts until it gives up and turns into carbon monoxide, then (3) you 20:58:49 separate the carbon monoxide and mix it with more hydrogen and again get very angry with it and use metal catalysts until it gives up and turns into methanol. my question is, how much of the magic that living beings do much better is in each of the three steps? obviously they don't use this specific routes, and you can use other routes too, but I mean if you give me (1) free hydrogen or (2) free 20:58:55 hydrogen and free carbon monoxide then how much closer does that get me to generating organic compounds without the help of living beings? 20:59:13 is one of those three steps the key to vitalism, and which one, or is it more than one of those steps? 21:01:10 2) seems very hard to me without starting from something that was once living 21:02:54 all of those steps sound quite costly in terms of energy 21:03:11 I see 21:03:26 (layman's perspective) 21:07:15 another confusing part is Titan the moon, which has lots of methane and ammonia that was created without biology. 21:07:48 could be similar processes 21:11:42 [[Stroke]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128950&oldid=128949 * Ttulka * (+12) empty program 21:15:31 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 21:16:13 @ pokemon being an FSM I'm trying to think of a mechanic in pokemon that needs something like a pushdown stack to simulate but coming up short 21:16:47 ridiculous amount of states though 21:17:50 as there are gas giants like Jupiter that are mostly hydrogen out there, maybe how this works is that planets can spawn with captured carbon (eg. methane) or captured nitrogen (eg. ammonia), it's just that once they turn to carbon dioxide or nitrogen gas, it's hard to recapture them from those forms. this happened on Earth too, because life had to bootstrap somehow, and it had to use those precaptured 21:17:56 forms of carbon and nitrogen to get created, it can't arise when those aren't available 21:18:29 -!- tromp has joined. 21:18:39 Pokemon does not use a stack, I think. 21:19:26 in the card game there would be no point because you can't respond to things 21:19:49 except possibly for the equivalent of triggered abilities 21:19:58 not talking about a literal stack to be clear just something that requires more than a simple state machine to simulate 21:20:21 (but Netrunner has lots of triggered abilities but does not have a stack, although interrupt windows end up acting in a stack-like way if they become nested somehow) 21:21:03 the video game has some response-like things such as Pursuit and Stealth Rock, but the number of relevant combinations is small enough that hardcoding them all would be reasonable 21:21:36 yes persistent state can just be encoded by multiplying the number of states by however many of those there are 21:21:39 (and there have been some bugs that are weird enough to make me wonder if they were all coded individually) 21:22:07 bugs in which video game? 21:23:11 the funny thing about this is the The Pokemon Regular Expression exists 21:23:29 s/is the/is that 21:24:32 b_jonas: various Pokémon games 21:26:25 I think gen 4's are most infamous: there is a glitch commonly known as "acid rain" which activates when Pursuit KOs a switching Pokémon during non-rain weather, and a glitch which permanently changes a Pokémon's moveset if it cancels using Rage while transformed 21:26:54 gen 1 has a ton of infamous bugs too, many involving data read from beyond the end of relevant buffers 21:27:24 I meant, in terms of combinations of moves in battle having weird, apparently unrelated effects 21:27:34 gotcha 21:28:33 the rage/transform one, at least, was eventually figured out (it was a reversed assignment which meant that the code that was meant to cancel rage instead turned off all the flags except rage, one of which is the flag to restore the original moveset of a transformed Pokémon as the battle ends) 21:28:47 Pokemon Regular Expression? I have not heard of that 21:29:34 just saying that if pokemon combat can be encoded by a finite state machine, there is a corresponding regular expression (if we say accepting states are those where the battle is over) 21:30:38 it would be a hilarious monster of a regular expression obviously 21:31:43 Yes, that is possible (although there might not be enough memory in the computer to do it that way) 21:32:14 -!- __monty__ has quit (Quit: leaving). 21:32:17 with the amount of state-based mechanics in the game I'm fairly sure the exponential amount of states reaches googological amounts 21:33:27 I don't think so – it runs on a games console, and so will be limited to double-exponential numbers of states at most (because games consoles have only single-exponential amounts of memory) 21:33:55 I'm considering things like googolplex to be googological here 21:34:13 which is a very broad meaning of the word, granted 21:34:31 Pokemon game does have hidden information and random stuff too, including players must enter commands simultaneously, and then order by priority and speed and are executed. State will involve non-volatile states (HP, PP, sleep, etc), stuff entered before battle is started (moves/abilities, effort values, etc), volatile effects, field effects (weather, entry hazards, etc), delayed effects, and more 21:35:10 damage dealt is random in a range as well 21:36:04 ais523: okay but wait, doesn't turning a deterministic finite state machine to a regular expression sometimes result in a regular expression of size exponential in the number of states? 21:36:58 and in fact don't we expect that would happen if you consider the whole memory of something like a pokémon game as the state machine? 21:37:33 so a double-exponential number of states, and a triple-exponential size of regular expression? 21:37:44 b_jonas: I'm not sure – the other direction is exponential, that direction might be too I guess? 21:38:09 even then, I tend to think of the smallest googological numbers as being decently-large exponent towers 21:38:23 ais523: the other direction is exponential if you go to DFA but not if you go to NFA, right 21:38:39 basically, anything that's beyond a viable computational complexity for an esolang :-) 21:38:50 b_jonas: right, was thinking about DFAs 21:38:52 a moment 21:42:09 Yes, damage is also random, and there is also accuracy, and attacking yourself due to confusion, sometimes you cannot attack due to paralysis, random chance of secondary effects, etc. It is not only the damage that is random. 21:43:04 the damage randomization is comparatively minor compared to secondary effect randomness and status randomness 21:43:40 competitively, if a particular KO is important to your team, you normally choose effort values so that you manage it even with a minimum damage roll 21:44:06 or, quite frequently you would be doing well over 100% anyway so the randomness doesn't matter 21:44:23 damage ranges can be relevant, but the other major randomness sources are more relevant 21:44:40 (I think damage ranges are more important for speedrunners, who don't have as much control over their Pokémon's stats) 21:46:20 found it, http://perso.enst.fr/~madore/inf105/notes-inf105.pdf 3.4.8 (on page 41) is where it explicitly states that the regular expression size can be exponential 22:06:25 [[C flat --]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=128951 * Coder07 * (+2202) Make page 22:09:05 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. 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