←2024-06-07 2024-06-08 2024-06-09→ ↑2024 ↑all
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00:23:42 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * New user account
00:26:05 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129711&oldid=129710 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+302) /* Introductions */
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01:30:41 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ThatGreenLED * New user account
02:19:14 <esolangs> [[Coolbeans]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=129712 * Tommyaweosme * (+1221) Created page with "Coolbeans is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:Tommyaweosme]] and Unname4798 (on lifewiki). == Stuff == - path | path \ turn / turn + intersection (they keep going the same way) > signal going right < signal going left ^ signal going up
02:30:03 <esolangs> [[Beefydie]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=129713 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+8178) Created page with "'''Beefydie''' is an esolang made by [[User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] which is inspired by [[ArnoldC]]. It is stack-based, but has 3 other forms of memory. They are
02:31:06 <esolangs> [[Beefydie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129714&oldid=129713 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+41)
02:33:01 <esolangs> [[Beefydie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129715&oldid=129714 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+198)
02:33:20 <esolangs> [[Beefydie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129716&oldid=129715 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+14)
02:33:27 <esolangs> [[Beefydie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129717&oldid=129716 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-1) /* Commands= */
02:34:08 <esolangs> [[Beefydie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129718&oldid=129717 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+39)
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05:25:25 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129719&oldid=129651 * EvyLah * (+106)
05:41:29 <esolangs> [[ErrorFull]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129720&oldid=118994 * PrySigneToFry * (+194)
05:52:55 <esolangs> [[Sushi Conveyor]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=129721 * EvyLah * (+1793) finish this later
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05:54:22 <esolangs> [[Sushi Conveyor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129722&oldid=129721 * EvyLah * (+51) someone add the 2d category I forgot what it was
05:55:16 <esolangs> [[User:EvyLah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129723&oldid=128959 * EvyLah * (+169)
06:02:56 <esolangs> [[ErrorFull]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=129724 * PrySigneToFry * (+2404) Created page with "ErrorFull(Or ErrorFullZ++) is invented by PSTF. == Error raise == {| class="wikitable" |+ Caption text |- ! If !! Error message |- | <code><nowiki>You includes any library</nowiki></code> || <code><nowiki></nowiki></code> *Delete all import command and then cop
06:04:45 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129725&oldid=129585 * PrySigneToFry * (+22)
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06:51:48 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[\$]] to [[FlipFlop]]
06:55:05 <cpressey> Good morning. Or if it's not morning where you are, then, hi.
06:56:01 <cpressey> Seen in a topic in another channel: "Expect long latency (i.e. don't join, say "hi", and quit after one minute of no response!)"
06:56:27 <cpressey> IRC has become something very not-IRC.
06:58:07 <cpressey> The "C" stands for "chat", you see.
06:58:16 <cpressey> The TLD of libera.chat is also "chat".
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07:00:08 <esolangs> [[FlipFlop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129728&oldid=129726 * Ractangle * (+461)
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07:01:23 <cpressey> I'm not sure what I think of "long latency chat", I'm not sure I can accept it as a form of "chat".
07:01:34 <cpressey> Might as well be on a mailing list, you know?
07:03:14 <esolangs> [[FlipFlop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129729&oldid=129728 * Ractangle * (-7)
07:04:44 <esolangs> [[FlipFlop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129730&oldid=129729 * Ractangle * (+31)
07:05:03 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129731&oldid=129699 * Ractangle * (-27) /* Esolangs */
07:05:22 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129732&oldid=129731 * Ractangle * (-21) /* Esolangs */
07:09:23 <esolangs> [[FlipFlop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129733&oldid=129730 * Ractangle * (+8)
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07:12:16 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129734&oldid=129666 * Ractangle * (-5) /* Cat program */
07:12:36 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129735&oldid=129734 * Ractangle * (-30) /* Cat program */
07:14:04 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129736&oldid=129735 * Ractangle * (-44) /* Text Engine */
07:15:02 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129737&oldid=129736 * Ractangle * (-46) /* 99 bottles of beer */
07:16:00 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129738&oldid=129737 * Ractangle * (-6) /* Truth-machine */
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07:16:40 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129739&oldid=129738 * Ractangle * (-41) /* Truth-machine */
07:17:02 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129740&oldid=129739 * Ractangle * (-33) /* Hello World */
07:25:01 <cpressey> Social media wounded IRC, encrypted messaging apps killed it, and now LLMs are puuting the nails in the coffin. (Because why ask another human when you could just ask ChatGPT. Less embarrassing that way, you don't have to admit there's something you don't know.)
07:26:29 <int-e> aha
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07:36:16 <esolangs> [[I am selfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129741&oldid=129705 * Ttulka * (+293) /* Examples */ add fibonacci example
07:36:54 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129742&oldid=129719 * Unicodes * (+26)
07:37:02 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129743&oldid=129742 * Unicodes * (-13)
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07:44:50 <b_jonas> high latency chat? as in, there are people on IRC who sometimes sleep? no way
07:46:50 <b_jonas> fungot, do you ever sleep?
07:57:17 <int-e> I think that's a yes.
08:06:02 <esolangs> [[Cantonese]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129744&oldid=112682 * Indigo * (+27) Add Pseudonatural category
08:10:40 <esolangs> [[User:Indigo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=129745 * Indigo * (+52) Created page with "Hello, I'm Indigo. == My Esolangs == [[Cantonese]]"
08:10:45 <esolangs> [[BytePusher]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129746&oldid=126260 * AnyPuter * (+159)
08:36:09 <fizzie> I'm embarrassed by the low availability of fungot. I should define an SLO.
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08:46:37 <fizzie> fungot: Could you export a metric or something for Prometheus so that I could add an alert when you're not on channel?
08:46:37 <fungot> fizzie: i see how it makes a lot of them who are behind the curve in innovation. :p fnord/ fnord/ search?q=
08:50:47 <int-e> . o O ( make it spawn 100 child processes and then watch for a drop in the number of processes on the server )
08:52:40 <fizzie> The current primary reliability problem is that it's usually still running, the TCP connection has just died but it doesn't notice because it never tries to proactively send anything, it's just blocked in the read call. It's running under OpenRC's supervise-daemon(8), so it would get restarted if it actually terminated.
08:53:47 <int-e> ah
08:54:09 <fizzie> I could fix that by turning on that TCP keepalive thing, but it doesn't have an autojoin thing so it still wouldn't get to the channel.
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08:54:44 <b_jonas> fizzie: this seems to be a common problem with IRC bots. my jevalbot was even trying to send pings periodically, and was supposed to give up if the server doesn't answer in a while, but even so it sometimes didn't notice that the connection died, and I could never figure out the reason of that bug.
08:54:45 <int-e> Been there, solved it by sending regular IRC PINGs. But that was in Haskell, not Befunge.
08:55:35 <int-e> It should work, hmm. Except in the rare case where you end up on an isolated node in a netsplit.
08:55:46 <fizzie> Also I'd need to make the ignore list part of the persisted state, currently I just always set it up manually before doing `^raw JOIN #esolangs`.
08:55:52 <b_jonas> you don't even need to send pings for that, at least you didn't need to on freenode: the server regularly sends you pings, so if you don't read anything from the server in ten minutes you can tell it's disconnected. though it's often still a good idea to send pings anyway.
08:55:58 <int-e> TCP keepalive might do the trick too, yeah.
08:56:52 <int-e> b_jonas: No, the scenario is when the server *has* closed the connection but the TCP connection is still open on the IRC bot side.
08:57:24 <int-e> Which can happen with a single lost packet, because TCP connections can stay alive forever without any packets sent.
08:57:24 <fizzie> "If you don't read anything in X minutes" would presumably catch that too.
08:57:53 <int-e> But true, you could check that those server-side pings actually arrived. I never thought of doing it that way.
08:58:34 <int-e> b_jonas: Sorry, I replied without reading your full message. A bad habit...
09:00:06 <fizzie> The problem with implementing either "send something periodically" or "timeout on receive" in Befunge is that the SOCK fingerprint's R operation will just block the interpreter forever. Even if I spawn a second IP, the threading is synchronous so that won't advance either.
09:00:41 <int-e> does Befunge expose select()?
09:01:01 <fizzie> I faintly recall Vorpal (was that their last nickname?), the cfunge author, was also drafting an async threading fingerprint, but I don't think that ever happened.
09:02:02 <fizzie> No, there's just accept (A), bind (B), connect (C), inet_aton (I), close (K), listen (L), setsockopt (O), recv (R), socket (S) and write (W).
09:02:51 <fizzie> I wonder if it's customized results to me, but we (as in the wiki) are the #1 result for the query "befunge SOCK extension", which I'm sure millions of people do daily.
09:04:10 <b_jonas> ok wait, technically what I said is wrong. I think the IRC server sends you pings only if you're silent, so that it can detect and purge dead connections, so technically an IRC client could send privmsgs, and as the server isn't expected to reply to them, the client might not notice that the server is dead.
09:04:42 <b_jonas> but I don't think that can happen to fungot, or to most clients
09:04:42 <fungot> b_jonas: not quite that similar. one can use scheme to transform it into character representation, and that using set!
09:05:10 <fizzie> Top queries (by impressions rather than clicks, since nothing has more than 1 click) for the last 3 months for the wiki, in case anyone's curious: https://zem.fi/tmp/wikiq.png
09:07:50 <int-e> . o O ( Not impressed )
09:11:51 <b_jonas> it's good practice for IRC clients to send a ping (or any other command for which the server sends a local reply that the client can identify as a reply) once every 4000 bytes or so of data sent, for flow control purposes, but 4000 bytes can be a lot of very short messages with no reply expected sent, so in general you may need a timed mechanism too.
09:12:19 <b_jonas> I'll have to remember this for the next time I write an IRC client
09:14:41 <b_jonas> huh? the top query is "Uniquode"?
09:15:06 <int-e> it's a company apparently
09:15:15 <b_jonas> for "olleh" I'm not surprised it's a frequent search, but I didn't know we'd be a top hit for it
09:15:28 <b_jonas> "universal turing machine" makes sense
09:15:47 <b_jonas> "frums" I don't know why we're a top hit for that either
09:16:19 <b_jonas> are those numbers for a month?
09:16:31 <int-e> Does it have to be a top hit? People might go deep into search results when considering hiring a consulting company (I think that's what they are).
09:16:43 <int-e> Or, possibly, applying at that company.
09:17:01 <b_jonas> sure
09:17:07 <int-e> I have not checked the actual Google results :P
09:18:23 <b_jonas> you can't, they're customized for you, google search isn't pure functional
09:18:42 <int-e> well they aren't really customized for me.
09:21:31 <int-e> (They're still customized based on IP of course. I mostly use DDG (a slightly less creepy version of Bing) and only resort to Google's search as a fallback.)
09:22:33 <fizzie> I think the numbers were for the last 3 months.
09:22:54 <fizzie> There's usually a total of 5-20 impressions per day.
09:25:33 <fizzie> In the last 3 months, we've never appeared on anyone's Discover feed. :/
09:26:43 <int-e> wtf even is that
09:28:15 <int-e> The best thing Google^WAlphabet has done for me recently is this: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/bliss.png
09:28:53 <fizzie> Not sure how to answer that. It's an infinitely scrollable list of cards (mostly articles, sometimes videos) of things you might be interested in, not specific to any query, that shows up on a few surfaces (the Android and iOS search apps, I think Chrome as well, maybe some others).
09:29:24 <int-e> So basically the same thing that YT did on its front page but for searches?
09:29:49 <fizzie> I guess more or less.
09:38:46 <fizzie> Oh, and on the earlier question, no, it counts as an impression even if it's not the top position. Our average position is 25.7, which I imagine very few people even reach.
09:39:59 <b_jonas> yeah, sorry, when I said "top result" I didn't mean the very first non-payed link
09:40:07 <b_jonas> I just mean in the first page
09:41:16 <fizzie> "Impressions are counted when the user visits that page of results, even if the result was not scrolled into view. However, if a user views only page 1 but the result is on page 2, the impression is not counted."
09:41:22 <fizzie> Says the help text on the metric.
09:41:57 <b_jonas> but yeah, the first page is no longer just 10 results
09:42:01 <b_jonas> google delivers like 30 now
09:42:36 <b_jonas> so it's quite possible that the people who search never see it most of the time
09:44:33 <fizzie> For me, "uniquode" returns: 1) the Uniqode "QR code management platform", which rings a faint bell, so might be relatively popular; 2) Uniquode Application Specialists LLP, that company; 3) LinkedIn page for that company; 4) Crunchbase (some sort of company info thing) page for that company; 5) https://esolangs.org/wiki/Uniquode
09:53:15 <b_jonas> hmm, so maybe we should look for some up-and-coming IT consultant companies, with fashionable words like "deep learning" and "blockchain" and "SEO" in their profile, and a stupid-sounding but unique name, and then make an esolang with that name, then we can get more views?
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12:43:04 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129747&oldid=129584 * Tommyaweosme * (+44) /* esolangs i made */
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13:46:13 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * XxXaXxX * New user account
14:03:06 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129748&oldid=129711 * XxXaXxX * (+53) Introduced myself
14:03:21 <esolangs> [[Ratt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=129749 * XxXaXxX * (+387) An esolang named Ratt
14:04:39 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129750&oldid=129725 * XxXaXxX * (+9) Added Ratt
14:05:24 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129751&oldid=129750 * XxXaXxX * (+2) Made into Bullet list
14:18:32 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129752&oldid=129573 * PrySigneToFry * (+369)
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14:44:00 <esolangs> [[Ratt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129753&oldid=129749 * XxXaXxX * (+8) Fixed something
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14:44:14 <esolangs> [[Ratt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129754&oldid=129753 * XxXaXxX * (+1) Fixed something
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15:05:14 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129755&oldid=129752 * Ais523 * (+391) /* Do you readed my essay About more Categories? */ no real benefit in doing that, and there are costs
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18:05:38 <esolangs> [[BFBWW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129756&oldid=108759 * Ractangle * (-20)
18:07:02 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129757&oldid=129747 * Tommyaweosme * (+41)
18:09:06 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129758&oldid=129743 * Tommyaweosme * (+206)
18:11:03 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129759&oldid=129758 * Tommyaweosme * (+120) /* brainbreak */
18:11:29 <esolangs> [[BFInfinity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129760&oldid=127468 * Ractangle * (+284) /* Commands */
18:16:45 <esolangs> [[Vfl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129761&oldid=127545 * Viba1 * (+104) add prime number henerator
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18:22:57 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Tommyaweosme * uploaded "[[File:Tommyaweosme profile.png]]": the profile icon for tommyaweosme
18:23:19 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Tommyaweosme * uploaded "[[File:Tommyaweosme talk.png]]": the talk icon for tommyaweosme
18:25:52 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129764&oldid=129759 * Tommyaweosme * (+38)
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18:32:58 <esolangs> [[Uyjhmn--]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129765&oldid=129485 * Ractangle * (+48) /* Commands */
18:34:09 <esolangs> [[Uyjhmn--]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129766&oldid=129765 * Ractangle * (-42) /* Computational class */
18:41:09 <esolangs> [[7 bottles of tommyaweosme]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=129767 * Tommyaweosme * (+561) Created page with "7 bottles of tommyaweosme is a programming challenge designed to be like [[99 bottles of beer on the wall]] but different. == Lyrics == 7 bottles of tommyaweosme on the wall 7 bottles of tommyaweosme take one down get +100 health 6 bottles of
18:41:31 <esolangs> [[7 bottles of tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129768&oldid=129767 * Tommyaweosme * (+61)
18:42:33 <esolangs> [[Aweosme-complete]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=129769 * Tommyaweosme * (+131) Created page with "{{Lowercase}} Unfinished computing level. == List of requirements (unfinished) == * Be able to print [[7 bottles of tommyaweosme]]."
18:45:24 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/function]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=129770 * Tommyaweosme * (+251) Created page with "The tommyaweosme function goes like this: * Take any input (can be predetermined numbers for no input languages) * Add 5 * Multiply by 2 * Subtract 10 repeatedly until below 10 * If answer is 0, output 87 once. * Otherwise, repeatedly output
18:45:47 <esolangs> [[Aweosme-complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129771&oldid=129769 * Tommyaweosme * (+75)
18:50:17 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/constant]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=129772 * Tommyaweosme * (+304) Created page with "The tommyaweosme constant goes: 568756568756565687... == How it works == Pseudocode ensues: 10 make var n 20 print "56" n times 30 print "87" once 40 n is n+1 50 go to 20 == How it relates to esolangs == If your programming language can't do
18:51:26 <esolangs> [[Aweosme-complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129773&oldid=129771 * Tommyaweosme * (+114) finished article
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18:59:00 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Tommyaweosme * uploaded "[[File:7 bottles of tommyaweosme in pseudocode.png]]": dont ask how i got those custom blocks (its penguinmod)
18:59:25 <esolangs> [[7 bottles of tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129775&oldid=129768 * Tommyaweosme * (+101)
19:04:45 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129776&oldid=129757 * Tommyaweosme * (+37)
19:05:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Tommyaweosme * uploaded "[[File:Lines are cool start.png]]"
19:05:41 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Tommyaweosme * uploaded "[[File:Lines are cool end.png]]"
19:07:00 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Tommyaweosme * uploaded "[[File:Lines are cool print.png]]"
19:09:24 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Tommyaweosme * uploaded "[[File:Lines are cool variable 1.png]]"
19:11:51 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Tommyaweosme * uploaded "[[File:Lines are cool variable 2.png]]"
19:13:33 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Tommyaweosme * uploaded "[[File:Lines are cool hello world.png]]"
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19:15:56 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Tommyaweosme * uploaded "[[File:Lines are cool if statement.png]]"
19:19:25 <esolangs> [[User:Ttulka]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129784&oldid=129674 * Ttulka * (+2) /* Stroke+- */ typo
19:20:40 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Tommyaweosme * uploaded "[[File:Lines are cool truth-machine.png]]"
19:20:51 <esolangs> [[Lines are cool]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=129786 * Tommyaweosme * (+1410) Created page with "Lines are cool is an esolang made by [[File:Tommyaweosme profile.png|75px|link=User:Tommyaweosme]]. == Commands == Note that the boxes do not need to be exact. They can be different. Lines can have arrows at the end of them, but they are not needed. Mainly
19:21:39 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129787&oldid=129776 * Tommyaweosme * (+45)
19:21:50 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129788&oldid=129787 * Tommyaweosme * (-5) /* other stuff */ error fix
19:23:30 <esolangs> [[Lines are cool]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129789&oldid=129786 * Tommyaweosme * (+2) /* User input = */ more error fixing
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19:33:16 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Tommyaweosme * uploaded "[[File:Lines are cool 7 bottles.png]]"
19:34:03 <esolangs> [[Lines are cool]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129791&oldid=129789 * Tommyaweosme * (+76)
19:35:16 <esolangs> [[Lines are cool]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129792&oldid=129791 * Tommyaweosme * (+39) /* 7 bottles of tommyaweosme */
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19:36:04 <ais523> hi cpressey
19:36:23 <ais523> someone posted the entire Befunge-97 spec on the wiki – are they allowed to do that copyright-wise?
19:44:14 <cpressey> hi ais523
19:46:26 <ais523> I haven't been doing much wrt esolangs recently, although I have been doing more wiki moderation than normal
19:46:54 <b_jonas> ping fizzie, he might know something about this
19:47:09 <ais523> b_jonas: well I assume cpressey owns the copyright
19:47:41 <cpressey> I would also assume that I own the copyright
19:48:28 <cpressey> That doesn't mean it might not be a good idea for me to dedicate it to the public domain, however, that's not something I want to decide at this very moment
19:48:41 <b_jonas> isn't that for a different version of Befunge
19:48:44 <ais523> fair enough
19:49:13 <ais523> I think you have admin powers on the wiki, so my current plan is to let you decide what (if anything) to do about it, then either do it yourself or tell me
19:49:19 <ais523> but I thought you ought to know what had happene
19:49:47 <cpressey> In general people should not be copying random stuff from the Internet Archive onto a wiki that as one of its terms says your contriution must be placed in the public domain. So on principle, I dislike this act.
19:50:42 <cpressey> ais523: yes, thank you for mentioning it, I'm not monitoring the wiki very closely
19:51:13 <ais523> I'm not monitoring it as closely as I used to, it moves too quickly to keep up with nowadays
19:51:29 <ais523> I used to read every edit, but there are about 10 times as many as there were
19:51:55 <b_jonas> Piet Mondrian died in 1944, so the programs that he painted are now in public domain
19:52:40 <ais523> I do get disappointed at the number of syntax substitutions that get posted as esolangs – syntax is part of the esolang experience, but is normally one of the less interesting parts
19:52:56 <ais523> the base language varies, although BF and Deadfish are both very common
19:53:27 <ais523> there are also a lot of "random list of funny commands that don't go together to form a coherent language" esolangs
19:54:23 <ais523> I guess this has always been the case to some extent
19:54:25 <b_jonas> that reminds me of the upside-down program I mentioned in https://esolangs.org/wiki/Piet#Notes
19:54:42 <esolangs> [[Piet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129793&oldid=126319 * B jonas * (+1) /* Notes */ formatting was broken
19:55:01 <ais523> hmm, do we have an article on asciipiet?
19:55:08 <ais523> I should probably write that at some point
19:55:40 <ais523> (it is just a syntax substitution of Piet which uses a 2D grid of characters rather than an image file, primarily to make file sizes smaller, although it likely also makes it easier to write)
19:56:21 <b_jonas> that makes file sizes *smaller*? I thought typical Piet programs compress well in PNG
19:56:42 <ais523> b_jonas: at least for small programs it does, because PNG headers can be quite large
19:57:04 <b_jonas> I see
19:58:54 <ais523> also asciipiet doesn't need to specify the palette, whereas in PNG you would need to do that either in the header, or by writing out the colors every time and having the compression program do the equivalent of a palette when compressing it
19:59:50 <ais523> in terms of more interesting languages, there has been a spate of Nopfunge derivatives recently, first by Keymaker and then by me
20:01:23 <ais523> (where the original basic idea is that you just have Befunge's movement instructions < ^ > v, but it's Turing complete because the program is infinitely large, and the details come down to how the program is infinitely repeated and what if any edge cases exist)
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20:06:20 <cpressey> So it's possibly not healthy, but my inclination right now, is to ask User:BoundedBeans (on the talk page) what legal theory they were acting under when they dedicated something I wrote in 1997 into the public domain.
20:06:42 <cpressey> This will not have the effect I would like it to have, I know that.
20:08:09 <ais523> fwiw I don't think they did so successfully
20:11:55 <b_jonas> ais523: true. PNG doesn't support low bit-depth true color, and even if it would, Piet is specified in an annoying way where it expects colors exactly equal to the standard ones and considers any other color as white or black (though this is implementation-defined so you could have an implementation that rounds colors better).
20:12:29 <ais523> hmm, now I'm wondering what an analog Piet would be like
20:12:35 <b_jonas> ais523: how does that differ from Nopfunge?
20:12:58 <ais523> b_jonas: I was describing Nopfunge
20:13:01 <b_jonas> oh good\
20:13:09 <b_jonas> yeah, you did say that, sorry
20:13:19 <b_jonas> that's the language that I am proposing as featured on the wiki by the way
20:13:25 <b_jonas> you'll have to decide on that very soon
20:13:50 <ais523> there are two styles of Nopfunge derivatives: one style keeps (or only slightly modifies) the ^ < v > but simplifies the way the program is used to tile the plane
20:14:11 <ais523> and the other makes use of turning instructions rather than four arrows
20:14:43 <ais523> in my derivative https://esolangs.org/wiki/Nopstacle the only instructions are empty space and obstacles, and the IP moves forwards until it encounters an obstacle, and turns left rather than moving into an obstacle square
20:15:11 <ais523> and the program is quarter-infinite (it repeats infinitely downwards and rightwards, but the space to the left and above is filled with obstacles)
20:15:17 <ais523> that's enough for TCness
20:17:14 <b_jonas> don't obstacles bi-translate to normal nopfunge locally, if you blow up the grid to a few times larger so each square is replaced by like 7x7 squares or so?
20:17:31 <b_jonas> the tiling pattern does differ from nopfunge though
20:17:48 <ais523> b_jonas: yes
20:18:10 <ais523> can simple translate to a nopfunge derivative that has the same tiling pattern, like Nopfunge Solid or Nopfunge Intanglble
20:18:24 <b_jonas> for fixed size the obstacle thing does show up in some puzzles like Portalsnake
20:18:47 <ais523> yes, although Portal Snake's obstacles are a bit more complicated
20:18:56 <ais523> in that the snake will turn right if it is blocked in front and to its left
20:19:05 <ais523> (whereas Nopstacle turns left twice and goes back the way it came)
20:19:14 <b_jonas> I didn't know Nopfunge derivatives was a genre now. Do we need a category on the wiki for it? And does Conedy count as one?
20:19:29 <b_jonas> besides the existing 2D category
20:19:40 <ais523> I am not sure if there are enough for a category
20:19:50 <ais523> the see also lists to a good job of tying them together
20:19:55 <ais523> maybe Conedy should be mentioned
20:19:57 <b_jonas> I see
20:20:02 <ais523> (although, I am still not sure whether Conedy is TC)
20:20:13 <ais523> it was supposed to be but I think I might have messed up
20:21:24 <esolangs> [[Nopfunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129794&oldid=121801 * B jonas * (+13) /* See also */
20:21:54 <b_jonas> that's fine, it's still a derivative interesting to mention even if it turns out to be not TC
20:22:10 <b_jonas> and if it's not, there's probably some modified version that is TC
20:23:20 <ais523> being questionably TC is more interesting
20:23:34 <ais523> it is known to be more powerful than a push-down automaton (it can implement all PDAs and some programs that are provably not PDAs)
20:23:38 <ais523> but isn't obviously TC
20:25:29 <b_jonas> how useful would it be to be at least as powerful to implement a PDA if it can't get any input?
20:26:03 <ais523> well it has an I/O extension
20:26:41 <ais523> but there are some PDA languages where you can encode input into the source in a reasonable way, like Splinter
20:27:04 <ais523> anyway, AFK for a while
20:27:29 <b_jonas> hmm, yeah, if you can encode input in the source code in a cheap enough way then that might make it interesting, yes
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20:28:46 <b_jonas> like with TC you can have a fixed program whose behavior is undecidable, but with just a one-stack machine I think that's not possible
20:30:10 <b_jonas> are one-stack machine programs decidable with an algorithm that gets the program as in input? I don't remember
20:30:32 <b_jonas> I expect that they are
20:30:48 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Chris Pressey * deleted "[[Befunge/96 and 97]]": Copyright violation: content was: " Through some obscure corner of the Wayback Machine, I ([[User:BoundedBeans]]) managed to find the original Funge-97 and Befunge-96 spec (not Funge-98, but its much more elusive parent). I've copied the specs here (sorry for the loss of formatti
20:34:07 <cpressey> First I've heard of Nopfunge, I'll have to ... read ... this
20:34:49 <cpressey> I did have an idea for another esolang, today or yesterday, but it's slightly lame
20:34:55 <cpressey> But maybe it's not
20:35:53 <cpressey> But maybe it's not ... if the programs are infinitely long
20:36:36 <cpressey> So basically, what if there was a programming language, where "This sentence is false." is a meaningful program.
20:37:14 <cpressey> The simplest semantics would be to keep revisiting the truth value of the sentence, right. So that program keeps flipping between truw and false.
20:37:36 <cpressey> But then, let a program consist of more than one sentence, and they can refer to other sentences as well as themselves.
20:38:26 <cpressey> But that reduces to SAT (I think).
20:39:23 <cpressey> But what if a program consists of an infinite number of such sentences, with the usual constraints on that from the cellular automata world.
20:40:55 <cpressey> "This sentence is true iff the sentence 3 sentences before this sentence is false and the next sentence is true." as an example of how it could be extended.
20:42:08 <ais523> back
20:42:43 <cpressey> For lack of a better working title, I've been thinking of calling it "Cretan Breakfast Club"
20:42:59 <ais523> it's basically an iterated Boolean circuit, I think
20:43:04 <ais523> which is how electronics work in real life
20:43:05 <cpressey> yes
20:43:56 <cpressey> which is why I consider it slightly lame. it's partly just so to have a language where the Liar Paradox sentence, is a valid program.
20:44:41 <cpressey> I had a name for that kind of language but it escapes me at the moment
20:45:01 <b_jonas> lol
20:45:32 <ais523> my brain is going towards "so what if you run the sentences in sequence and there's an infinite loop" but I don't think that's any more interesting
20:45:43 <cpressey> "pastiche language", that's the term
20:46:29 <b_jonas> (I'm laughing on how you first explain about a language of "A: B is a knave; B: A is a knight" puzzles, and then "I had a name ... but it escapes me at the moment" is such a funny Smullyan reference.)
20:47:56 <cpressey> I recently found a paper on a generalized account of these paradoxes and the author was able to apply it to a number of them; but there was an example of a Richard sentence he wasn't able to immediately generalize; which seems interesting. One sec and I can try to find it
20:49:00 <cpressey> https://arxiv.org/abs/math/0305282 -- page 11 of the PDF, "For reasons that are beyond the author, this paradox remains."
20:51:38 <cpressey> (Chef is probably the quintessential pastiche language. Others abound.)
20:51:42 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Tommyaweosme * uploaded "[[File:Lines are cool a+b.png]]"
20:52:00 <ais523> isn't the resolution here that it's impossible to tell whether a given sentence describes a real number between 0 and 1 or not?
20:52:49 <ais523> e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richardson%27s_theorem
20:53:03 <ais523> so talking about the nth such sentence is not well-defined
21:01:52 <esolangs> [[Befunge/96 and 97]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=129796 * Chris Pressey * (+1260) Restore the CC0 portions of the deleted version of this page.
21:02:49 <esolangs> [[Befunge/96 and 97]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129797&oldid=129796 * Chris Pressey * (+17) passive voice
21:02:59 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Tommyaweosme * uploaded "[[File:Lines are cool looping counter.png]]"
21:04:34 <cpressey> I have no idea. Probably. Mainly mentioning it as a possible way of taking a language designed on these principles, further. Possibly too far...
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21:12:45 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Tommyaweosme * uploaded "[[File:Lines are cool functions.png]]"
21:13:44 <esolangs> [[Lines are cool]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129800&oldid=129792 * Tommyaweosme * (+674)
21:13:57 <esolangs> [[Lines are cool]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129801&oldid=129800 * Tommyaweosme * (+2) /* Functions */
21:14:27 <esolangs> [[Lines are cool]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129802&oldid=129801 * Tommyaweosme * (+3) /* Merger */
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21:42:23 <esolangs> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129803&oldid=121456 * Tommyaweosme * (+632)
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22:47:18 <zzo38> How to make factorial of a square matrix?
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23:01:27 <b_jonas> zzo38: is the matrix hermitian?
23:05:55 <zzo38> I don't know? Is it only defined for a Hermitian matrix (I may have some idea about why it might)?
23:06:40 <b_jonas> zzo38: afaiu, in general, if you want to apply a complex->complex analytic function onto a matrix, you either take the integer powers of that matrix and then substitute it into a taylor series, or you compute the eigendecomposition of the matrix, hope that it's diagonal (it is in if the matrix is hermitian or if its coefficients are randomly chosen), apply the function to the eigenvalues, then multiply
23:06:46 <b_jonas> back with the eigenvector. the problem with the taylor series thing is that it will often diverge.
23:08:03 <b_jonas> even if the eigendecomposition is diagonal, you can have the factorial diverge, because it already does so at negative integers and some other complex numbers, but there's not much you can do about that
23:08:54 <b_jonas> but I think there's some reason why this only works out well for hermitian matrices. I don't really remember how this works
23:09:35 <b_jonas> the easy case is if you only want to substitute the matrix into a polynomial, but you asked about factorial which clearly isn't one
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23:27:49 <esolangs> [[Doors]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129804&oldid=129479 * BestCoder * (+95) /* Truth machine */
23:42:02 <esolangs> [[Doors]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129805&oldid=129804 * BestCoder * (+17) /* Info */
23:42:52 <esolangs> [[Doors]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129806&oldid=129805 * BestCoder * (+10) /* Commands/Entities */
23:43:37 <esolangs> [[Doors]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129807&oldid=129806 * BestCoder * (+53) /* Examples */
23:47:50 <esolangs> [[Doors]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129808&oldid=129807 * BestCoder * (+80) /* Truth machine */
23:48:24 <esolangs> [[Doors]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=129809&oldid=129808 * BestCoder * (+4) /* Commands/Entities */
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