< 1719793993 911108 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1719794583 706594 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1719797465 57903 :amby!~ambylastn@2a00:23c5:ce05:7801:e9be:3d32:846a:8151 QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement > 1719799364 144280 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131865&oldid=130080 5* 03TwilightSparkle 5* (+229) 10/* About Scratch */ < 1719800997 678124 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would have never guessed before trying to implement it that the most arcane part of the Conedy spec is: "For each uppercase letter, there must be a corresponding lowercase letter (for which both letters case-fold to the same codepoint), and vice versa" < 1719801120 69920 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`unicode ĸ < 1719801124 827295 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :U+0138 LATIN SMALL LETTER KRA \ UTF-8: c4 b8 UTF-16BE: 0138 Decimal: ĸ \ ĸ \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) < 1719801178 54523 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`run python3 -c "print('ĸ'.upper() == 'ĸ'.lower())" < 1719801180 105464 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :True < 1719801599 756682 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this might be a Python3 bug, but it's not especially clear what the meaningful result should be, other than upper() ever returning a result in the Ll category seems wrong. < 1719801662 769697 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1719801685 139366 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1719801950 581432 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://codepoints.net/U+0138?lang=en shows it is lowercase, but explicitly maps its uppercase to itself :shrug: Are there other examples of this? < 1719802056 205137 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sharing because Unicode is a frequent topic of discussion / complaint here. HackEso's `unicode cmd is also very convenient < 1719802549 753146 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : I would have never guessed before trying to implement it that the most arcane part of the Conedy spec is: "For each uppercase letter, there must be a corresponding lowercase letter (for which both letters case-fold to the same codepoint), and vice versa" ← I knew at the time it was difficult, and worded that sentence specifically to at least be unambiguous < 1719802617 119682 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :some languages have a casefold function/method that folds any letter to either its uppercase or lowercase version, consistently for each uppercase/lowercase pair, in a way that makes "same letter with different case" comparisons work – neither uppercase nor lowercase does that consistently IIRC < 1719802686 400694 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if there's an "equals-ignoring-case" method, that would work too – some regex engines can do that < 1719804243 480500 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, python has str.casefold for that < 1719806382 274902 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had made a character code which makes case-folding much more consistent regardless of the languages; no complicated tables are needed, and the I which is normal, with a dot, and without a dot, are three different characters, so it does not have that problem. < 1719806410 34082 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :However, whether or not this is suitable depends on your application; different character codes are suitable for different applications, anyways. < 1719806491 251778 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I happened to star with lowercase Unicode, then tried to find the uppercase other-half of the pair. Starting with Uppercase and using casefold seems like it will have less issues. ty < 1719806572 68990 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm now thinking upper and lower case are very context dependent, and not always consistently meaningful < 1719806802 86362 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Unicode category Ll has 2,155 entries, Lu has 1,791, so that's the limit for pair, and I should have started with Lu! < 1719806854 825547 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : I'm now thinking upper and lower case are very context dependent, and not always consistently meaningful ← indeed! < 1719807018 792726 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, it is very context dependent and not always consistently meaningful, I agree with that. < 1719807050 354645 :JAA!~JAA@user/meow/JAA PRIVMSG #esolangs :A common example for this is the letter i in Turkish. Its uppercase is İ, and the lowercase of I is ı. < 1719807130 330766 :JAA!~JAA@user/meow/JAA PRIVMSG #esolangs :There are also some fun examples where you have two lowercase letters corresponding to one uppercase, e.g. σ and ς for Σ. < 1719807138 695171 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's one example that Unicode libraries don't normally handle by default – you have to request Turkic casefolding with separate methods, if it's even supported < 1719807164 15519 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :JAA: a good one is that the uppercase of ß is SS which is two letters rather than one < 1719807183 770932 :JAA!~JAA@user/meow/JAA PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Except not anymore! There is ẞ now! < 1719807185 928732 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…and although ẞ exists it isn't generally used, but its lowercase version is definitely ß < 1719807189 696531 :JAA!~JAA@user/meow/JAA PRIVMSG #esolangs ::-) < 1719807208 330065 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` perl -E 'say uc "ß"' < 1719807210 836435 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​ß < 1719807222 485481 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, need to turn on Unicode < 1719807231 84882 :JAA!~JAA@user/meow/JAA PRIVMSG #esolangs :Related to that, IDNA 2003 vs 2008. < 1719807245 426074 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`unicode ẞ < 1719807247 439645 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :U+1E9E LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S \ UTF-8: e1 ba 9e UTF-16BE: 1e9e Decimal: ẞ \ ẞ (ß) \ Lowercase: U+00DF \ Category: Lu (Letter, Uppercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) < 1719807272 546209 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` perl -C63 -Mutf8 -E 'say uc "ß"' < 1719807274 113301 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :SS < 1719807278 183141 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there we go < 1719807307 395547 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` perl -C63 -Mutf8 -E 'say lc uc lc "ẞ"' < 1719807308 795134 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ss < 1719807323 147883 :JAA!~JAA@user/meow/JAA PRIVMSG #esolangs :IDNA 2003 normalises ß to ss, so no domain names with ß are possible in it. IDNA 2008 fixed that, but it leads to incompatibilities in some fun places. Python still only supports 2003, and trying to do TLS certificate validation on a domain containing an ß leads to surprise fireworks. < 1719807323 226641 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` perl -C63 -Mutf8 -E 'say fc "ẞ"' < 1719807324 725747 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ss < 1719807335 553243 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh, that's an interesting casefold normalization < 1719807339 531112 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I guess it makes sense, considering < 1719807435 62054 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, that's how to get perl to do that, I was missing -Mutf8 and switched to python to get HackEso to respond correctly < 1719807439 81877 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, those cases where there are multiple ways to case-fold. < 1719807440 411504 :JAA!~JAA@user/meow/JAA PRIVMSG #esolangs :But yeah, also a very good example for this kind of nonsense. :-) < 1719807458 914404 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: -C is for reading/writing files and argv, -Mutf8 is for the program itself < 1719807521 381658 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I think that the working of international domain names is no good; I had idea how to make a better way. It would involve a code to select a language (a domain component has only one language), which has its own character set that does not distinguish uppercase/lowercase, instead of using Unicode. And then, TLS certificates and most other file formats would use only the ASCII format of the domain name. < 1719807541 623708 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Since the ASCII format is most portable and will be consistent, so it won't cause the problem.) < 1719807613 488200 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :And then, each of these small character sets will have mapping to Extended TRON Code, althogh they would also be possible to use as stand-alone character sets, so a program can use them directly if desired (and in most cases would use them directly) < 1719807707 833291 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :JAA: Thanks for the Greek and Turkish examples, sigma should have been obvious when I was trying to think of one. Intuitively Σ -> σ, and ς is a context dependent version of σ. I hope casefold agrees. < 1719807894 918721 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` perl -C63 -Mutf8 -E 'say fc "Σσς"' < 1719807896 513566 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​σσσ < 1719807902 590237 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it does < 1719808154 684450 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User > 1719808318 896194 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Chef14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131866&oldid=127241 5* 03Indigo 5* (+25) 10Blog seems to no longer be online > 1719808381 825551 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Chef14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131867&oldid=131866 5* 03Indigo 5* (+38) 10 < 1719808831 419122 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :My Conedy "Hello, World!" sketch uses 104 letter pairs (one for each output bit), that's 5% of the available pairs. < 1719808831 689926 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought re-using nets for output would be impractical because every net has only one beacon to head for afterwards. < 1719808831 769403 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But there might be up to 3 distinct exit paths depending on the angle of incidence? > 1719808842 357900 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07*&&^14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131868&oldid=131758 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+25) 10 < 1719808868 321292 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it would be amazing if the outcome of this were "Conedy is almost TC, but there aren't enough letters in Unicode to make it work" < 1719808872 891358 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not totally convinced by that output convention. The input form makes more sense though. Encoding data in decimal places of rationals is what makes the language interesting. < 1719808914 522648 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It'd expand as Unicode does, so it'lll be Unicode version dependent < 1719809345 865248 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :A more satisfying Hello World would be something that aimed and exited the playing field at, say x or y coord < 1719809347 133069 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` python -c "print('10.' + ''.join([str(ord(c)).zfill(3) for c in 'Hello, World!']))" < 1719809349 597578 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :10.072101108108111044032087111114108100033 < 1719809700 740699 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1719810125 77578 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :About the Turkish alphabets, that is why I put a separate code for them: 0x702149 for dotless uppercase I but the 0x702249 for the ordinary uppercase I whose lowercase does have a dot but uppercase doesn't. And then, 0x709149 will mean the uppercase I including a dot. (This is not always useful in all applications, but for some applications this will help significantly.) < 1719810241 521216 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :New versions of a character set ought to not cause programs to change, anyways. < 1719810893 170826 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :These are reasons why I write software to not use Unicode, as much as possible. Other people do not think about the consideration properly, and will say, O, we will put Unicode; that way you can write international text and now the program is international. Well, that won't work, and it might also just get in the way, depending on what exactly your program is doing (it is not same for all programs, though). < 1719811388 729196 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Now if I understand correctly, a Conedy source file could contain either a Ii pair OR a İi pair unambiguously, and the spec is clear. < 1719811396 538172 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was generating a list of valid pairs to compose scripts from. It never occurred to me that some valid pairs would be mutually exclusive. < 1719811456 209552 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Σσ και Σς are other examples of mutually exclusive pairs. < 1719811513 918978 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe, if they should make a non-Unicode variant which can be better. For example, each cell contains an integer; each positive must have a corresponding negative and vice-versa; nonzero integers must be unique within the program; and the sum of all of the numbers in the program must add up to zero. < 1719811617 106055 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that is a lot more clear cut. I think the problem (which I run into frequently with eso-langs) is you want a distinct 1 character symbol for each numeric value < 1719811726 161120 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :.. an idea I am working on involves extending utf8 to enable infinite codepoints to work with an alphabet with one symbol for every natural number < 1719811760 562224 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :There is extensions like that of UTF-8, I think. < 1719811804 690062 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Instead of positive / negative pairs, would adjacent odd/even codepoints work? They wouldn't neccesarily look related, which is the advantage case has < 1719811825 130496 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :However, UTF-8 is not the only character encoding (nor is Unicode the only character set, although an extension of UTF-8 beyond U+10FFFF is already not Unicode anyways) < 1719811848 191173 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, odd/even like that would work, and is sometimes the way of converting integers into natural numbers by a 1:1 correspondence. < 1719811861 480455 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would be super interested in knowing of a UTF-8 extension like that, the encoding to extend it is pretty obvious, the question is why anyone would bother :) < 1719812006 118170 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I did look, but there's enough confusion around UTF-8, I don't know what terms to search for to find a hypothetical infinite alphabet solution. < 1719812013 325488 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know, but I think it is unnecessary and not helpful in this case anyways. Anyways, even without such an extension, UTF-8 can encode any unsigned 31-bit number. (This technically allows encoding TRON characters (up to 128 volumes) in UTF-8 without ambiguity, but it isn't a very good way of doing it anyways.) < 1719812038 127224 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have seen the infinite variant of UTF-8 called "UTF-8-infinity", although I could not find it recently. < 1719812108 115600 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's possible it's something I wrote on the esolangs wiki, that would be funny. I have at least two works in progress of the idea (but I keep getting sidetracked) < 1719812327 146819 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :recently I realised that not only do I need to write the codec, I need to rewrite 'String' to work with it too, which is actually the more complex part, and figure out some intermediate representations that don't clash with existing ones < 1719812526 274578 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Just looking at TRON now. I have always liked Unicode, but suspected that if I had more experience or requirement for Chinese I'd change my mind pretty quickly. It seems a weak point, and TBH I avoid looking into the details, as some sort of cognitive dissonance avoidance. < 1719812638 337406 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zz038: when you say "0x702149 for dotless uppercase " is that TRON, or a custom encoding? < 1719812698 147853 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :It is an unofficial "Extended TRON Code". So, it can be used with TRON code (it is a different plane number, so it does not overlap the existing codes) < 1719812752 429156 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Does TRON have an upper limit? < 1719812754 167071 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Officially, you can use 0x212349 for the JIS character English uppercase I, though, which still is available in the Extended TRON Code, too) < 1719812825 613244 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :TRON does not have an upper limit, although some encodings may have limits, and computer programs may have practical limits. There is a limit of 10648000 characters per volume, although the number of volumes is unlimited. TRON-32 encoding supports up to 256 volumes; TRON-8 and TRON-16 are theoretically unlimited.) < 1719812901 262118 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The names "TRON-8", "TRON-16", and "TRON-32" are my own names for the encodings; as far as I know there are no official names for them, although the Ruby programming language uses "TADTextBE" for what I call "TRON-16BE", and "stateless-TADTextBE" for what I call "TRON-32BE". As far as I can tell, usually "TRON code" refers to the TRON-16 encoding (like how in the past, "Unicode" often referred to UTF-16).) < 1719812972 141995 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wrote a article on Just Solve The File Format Problem Wiki about TRON character code, although there is a lot of stuff I could not figure out, so I could not include. < 1719813063 934070 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(My use of the word "volume" here is also my own; I don't know what (if any) official terminology exists for the concept that I am refering to, since most of the information is in Japanese and even that is difficult to find.) < 1719813326 456717 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1719813466 853010 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Thanks, this is interesting, I'll have to read more. I have not encountered TRON before, but it seems like it's been around for a while. Knowing there is Ruby support is good, and makes sense. < 1719813711 821259 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1719813782 685344 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have made a bitmap font for the first TRON plane, which is based on combining several other fonts, and then I added the braille by myself. (Actually, the list of fonts in esolang wiki (the article called "Font") does list this font.) Later, I would hope that bitmap fonts for the other planes can also be made up, including the unofficial Extended planes. < 1719813983 864962 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I had also found TrueType fonts for the second and third TRON planes; however, they are split across fourteen fonts, with Unicode mappings that have no relation to TRON code nor Unicode, with PDF files describing the mappings. It seems difficult to actually make them useful; I have tried to parse data from the PDF automatically but could not get it to work, so it would have to be entered manually.) > 1719815111 884742 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Input only14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=131869 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+0) 10Created blank page > 1719816202 86182 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131870&oldid=131829 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+24) 10 > 1719816213 58805 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131871&oldid=131870 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+10) 10 > 1719816222 181438 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131872&oldid=131871 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (-1) 10 > 1719816298 458999 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131873&oldid=131872 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+37) 10 > 1719816409 239510 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131874&oldid=131873 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+93) 10 > 1719817503 289713 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131875&oldid=131874 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+344) 10 > 1719817519 891876 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131876&oldid=131875 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+5) 10/* not */ > 1719817932 311397 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131877&oldid=131876 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+82) 10 < 1719818565 722404 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1719818743 624717 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron < 1719819084 378104 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: yes, the complications of the turkish i, the vietnamese i, and the russian vs serbian i/p and š/t force tradeoffs on us, they mean there's no single way to deal with letter case differences that's the best for all applications, sadly. < 1719819152 270750 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Unicode category Ll has 2,155 entries, Lu has 1,791" => that's mostly because of letters that are used only in various IPA-like phonetic transcriptions though < 1719819256 229346 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"trying to do TLS certificate validation on a domain containing an ß leads to surprise fireworks" => hehe < 1719819541 206597 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: "extension of UTF-8 beyond U+10FFFF" => https://ucsx.org/ < 1719819993 181451 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx, ais523: if you're running low on letter for a Conedy program, you could use characters composed from multiple code points as a cell, like и́И́, and hope that the interpreter handles them properly < 1719820176 190007 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` datei # we need a new password, right? < 1719820178 894909 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :2024-07-01 07:49:37.558 +0000 UTC July 1 Monday 2024-W27-1 < 1719820614 592543 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also this years ICFP contest names its associated esoteric language ICFP, which will result in an even weirder entry on the esowiki than the languages called GCC and GHC did < 1719821206 143426 :riv!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :i started icfp < 1719821212 611346 :riv!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :but i didn't understand how strings are not terminated < 1719821291 773322 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :riv: in the source code, every token is terminated by a space < 1719821374 232233 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :riv: note that the source code character set differs from the character set in which you read the strings, so this is ASCII space terminator, while space in the string is represented by ascii right bracket or something like that < 1719821394 670643 :riv!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh that explains it haha < 1719821522 279985 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown < 1719821543 36124 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: UCS-∞ is perfect, thank you! The encoding seems... more thoughtful than what I came up with, they have thought about practical performance issues for very large code points. < 1719821863 805878 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: "use characters composed from multiple code points as a cell, like и́И́" Good idea, that does seem an intuitive extension. I'll consider adding it, it probably won't happen by default. < 1719822497 492322 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Heh, I totally overlooked "Yet another useful property of one-to-six-byte UTF-8 is that the leading byte indicates the length of a code." < 1719822640 89259 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not saying that this is necessary, it's quite possible that the few thousand available upper-lower case pairs are sufficient for TCness < 1719823029 415998 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is kind of like the M:tG creature types thing < 1719823131 475675 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was about to agree, but limiting the pairs in Conedy is like limiting the length of the source code. I that same same role M:tG creatures play? < 1719823259 532095 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like how the number of waterclocks in The Waterfall Model are not the same as number of registers in a Minsky machine < 1719823334 530824 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs * :lisbeths < 1719823407 464312 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: the creature types thing comes up when we examine the eso-question of how we can do universal computations in M:tG. (there are multiple variants of what question you want answered.) the constructions that we have use creature types as a resource, so we compile from some intermediate language and how much of something the source program uses turns into how many creature types there are. the < 1719823413 441250 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :number of creature types is around 279, but this number increases at most rules changes, because the new expansion set has cards that are of new creature types or mention new creature types (usually because they have rules for creating a token of that type, but there are exceptions like Coward). except I think the number of creature types decreased at the Lorwyn update. < 1719823420 224711 :Koen!~Koen@2a04:cec0:103e:763b:cfb:b9ad:6c8f:e412 JOIN #esolangs * :Koen < 1719823499 824524 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder if you could design a programming language that deliberately uses some such list as a resource, and such that the limit is near some computational power jump. like a language where the source code is a list of countries, and it's TC iff Kosovo is a country < 1719823552 676941 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or maybe it depends on the scrabble word list, and whether QI and ZA are words changes the power < 1719823687 950584 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol, that could probably be contrived somehow, by forcing elements to have to work together. Aren't most TC limits 1,2, or 3 (2-reg Minsky) (3 cell bf) < 1719823712 773128 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@83.223.235.74 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale < 1719823881 968058 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see creatures are explicitly equivalent to waterclocks in the flooding waterfall model. They represent source code and data, Conedy letter pairs just represent source code... they seem similar though < 1719823972 235666 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :an efghij-style language where you need smartphones with different brands of operating systems for loops, so whether you can find two non-Android non-Apple phones decides if you can be TC < 1719824049 213193 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if the basic construction could be TC (maybe it is, maybe it isn't) it probably has the same kind of leeway that future specs could have more letters (/ creatures) ... so it's potentially unlimited < 1719824170 107623 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@83.223.235.74 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1719824248 760232 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a language where parts of the source code are read from the internet in such a way that you need to have access to domain names under different top-level domains to be able to write a program < 1719824345 669441 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :having it conditional on useful discoveries (drugs, planets, mathematical proofs), maybe a Minsky machine with registers addressable by the names of planetary bodies which have independently evolved life? < 1719824421 266732 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd like to try running an Earth, Enceladus pair to see if that compiles... < 1719824595 318516 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@83.223.235.74 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale < 1719824853 84777 :jix_!~jix@user/jix QUIT :Quit: quit < 1719825653 105335 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Could someone please produce a chart showing the number of M:tG creatures vs. number of Conedy compliant Unicode character pairs over time, to indicate likely future trends? <== isn't there an esolang where asking in IRC is valid code? (trying my luck) < 1719825856 935922 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/IRP is a thing, yes. < 1719826210 657826 :Koen_!~Koen@2a04:cec0:102d:e2f5:c534:72f3:4385:bb94 JOIN #esolangs * :Koen < 1719826425 660502 :Koen!~Koen@2a04:cec0:103e:763b:cfb:b9ad:6c8f:e412 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1719826432 98875 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@83.223.235.74 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1719826904 380504 :jix!~jix@user/jix JOIN #esolangs jix :Jannis Harder < 1719827209 543710 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas < 1719827494 877696 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :an esolang where the source code is a person or team, and the program is ran by transforming this person's or teams achievements in some sport to source code for a simpler esolang. if you want the program whose source code you are to do something interesting, then you have to bat/throw/swim/climb specific sequences in multiple ranked matches. > 1719828412 373527 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ICFP14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=131878 5* 03B jonas 5* (+363) 10Created page with "'''IFCP''' is an esoteric programming language involved in the tasks for [[:Category:ICFP contest|]] 2024. (No description given here yet because the contest is still ongoing for a few hours.) == External links == * [https://icfpcontest2024.github.io/ ICFP 2024 contest > 1719828511 706422 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:B jonas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131879&oldid=128843 5* 03B jonas 5* (+33) 10/* Todo */ > 1719829247 196124 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Gilbert189/Languages in concept14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131880&oldid=131195 5* 03Gilbert189 5* (+7951) 10It's an esolang! It's a conlang! No, it's... whatever this is. < 1719829264 641802 :Reinhilde!ellenor@invictus.wa.us.umbrellix.net PART #esolangs :Now, I'm the vixen with a knife, and I want blood. < 1719829556 197782 :amby!~ambylastn@2a00:23c5:ce05:7801:dbc8:76a0:71b7:76f9 JOIN #esolangs * :realname > 1719829761 83756 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131881&oldid=131877 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+41) 10/* examples */ > 1719829771 395431 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131882&oldid=131881 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+0) 10/* nand */ > 1719830438 116049 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131883&oldid=131882 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+1) 10 > 1719830793 747190 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07List of ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131884&oldid=131515 5* 03Gilbert189 5* (+146) 10/* General Ideas */ > 1719831296 901694 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131885&oldid=131883 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+83) 10 > 1719831297 76990 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131886&oldid=131483 5* 03Unicodes 5* (+75) 10added 4 words :/ > 1719831948 654696 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ICFP14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131887&oldid=131878 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10ICFP or IFCP? < 1719832298 477604 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity > 1719832784 965553 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131888&oldid=131885 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+4) 10/* not */ > 1719832847 215466 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131889&oldid=131888 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+9) 10/* examples */ > 1719833326 49801 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131890&oldid=131889 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+269) 10 > 1719833383 972854 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131891&oldid=131890 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (-74) 10/* examples */ > 1719833470 871529 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131892&oldid=131891 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+2) 10/* A OR B */ > 1719833491 430065 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131893&oldid=131892 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+0) 10/* nand */ > 1719833503 108890 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131894&oldid=131893 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+4) 10/* nand */ > 1719835443 135505 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03DorIsch 5* 10New user account > 1719835546 686111 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ICFP14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131895&oldid=131887 5* 03B jonas 5* (+119) 10 > 1719837463 56082 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ulsl14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131896&oldid=129535 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+14) 10 > 1719837612 862901 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131897&oldid=131886 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+45) 10u p s i d e d o w n > 1719837700 154026 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131898&oldid=131897 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+8) 10t o c > 1719838654 865910 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Galveston14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131899&oldid=101437 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+145) 10/* External resources */ Link to UCS- Specification < 1719838706 268141 :amby!~ambylastn@2a00:23c5:ce05:7801:dbc8:76a0:71b7:76f9 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds > 1719838742 557345 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GHost CPU14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=131900 5* 03B jonas 5* (+2255) 10Created page with "'''GHost CPU''' (GHC) is one of the languages used in the [[:Category:ICFP contest|]] 2014. GHC is designed to resemble an 1980s 8-bit microcontroller. It has a read-only code memory made of 256 instructions, a read-write data memory made of 256 bytes, 8 general-p > 1719838766 467457 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GHC14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=131901 5* 03B jonas 5* (+23) 10Redirected page to [[GHost CPU]] < 1719840612 506560 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1719841410 687241 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.206.217.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1719841492 643743 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.204.27.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull < 1719841518 904114 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the C standard says that in struct tm, the normal range of the tm_mon field is 0 to 11 inclusive, and, in the docs of the asctime function, even specifies the abbreviated names of the 12 months in normative text. This means the standard library could use the Julian calendar, the Gregorian calendar, a combination of the two with the transition < 1719841519 403172 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :date dependent on the local timezone, or even a different 12-month calendar with the same month names; but it can't use a lunisolar calendar, since that would need 13 different month indexes in some years. that's a pity. if we do a calendar reform, gmtime/localtime/mktime might have to return the broken down date in the old Gregorian calendar for < 1719841519 905547 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :compatibility with the C standard. > 1719841945 396525 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131902&oldid=131894 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+79) 10 > 1719842171 625972 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131903&oldid=131902 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+116) 10/* examples */ < 1719842303 192539 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.161.136 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale > 1719842336 373220 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131904&oldid=131903 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+111) 10 > 1719842449 750934 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131905&oldid=131904 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+41) 10 < 1719842468 770204 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's a land type, not a creature type. > 1719842895 650354 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131906&oldid=131905 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+173) 10/* A OR B */ > 1719842910 520907 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131907&oldid=131906 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+6) 10/* A NOR B */ < 1719843037 742532 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.161.136 QUIT :Quit: Client closed > 1719843174 827971 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131908&oldid=131907 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+127) 10/* examples */ < 1719843510 815855 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) > 1719843688 756071 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131909&oldid=131908 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+77) 10/* A AND B */ > 1719844090 72698 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131910&oldid=131909 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+295) 10/* examples */ > 1719844103 15339 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131911&oldid=131910 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+2) 10/* A > B */ < 1719845511 301708 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3.1 - https://znc.in < 1719845511 445379 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3.1 - https://znc.in < 1719846318 336628 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in < 1719846407 362443 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in < 1719848897 662492 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.161.82 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale > 1719850292 262252 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General Compute Coprocessor14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=131912 5* 03B jonas 5* (+1482) 10Created page with "'''General Compute Coprocessor''' (GCC) is one of the languages used in the [[:Category:ICFP contest|ICFP contest]] 2014. GCC is a virtual machine intended for running a lisp-like untyped functional language compiled to it. There are built-in ins > 1719850316 448588 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GCC14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=131913 5* 03B jonas 5* (+41) 10Redirected page to [[General Compute Coprocessor]] > 1719850454 572989 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:B jonas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131914&oldid=131879 5* 03B jonas 5* (-45) 10/* Todo */ < 1719851047 507382 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: re: C restricting its time functions to 12 months: Java actually has constants for 13 months in order to work around that problem (the constants are normatively named JANUARY, FEBRUARY, etc., with the 13th being UNDECIMBER) < 1719851451 971868 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1719851526 372097 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1719851746 259163 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1719852067 976470 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1719852141 946489 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1719852564 43778 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1719852638 669590 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1719854339 697057 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Looks like that's the case for the old java.util.Calendar, but not for the new java.time.Month enumeration, which just has the usual 12 constants. < 1719854460 40335 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.161.82 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1719856005 737965 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1719856754 618883 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :In operating system designs I had considered the calendar also with i18n, as well as text and other stuff. A calendar does not even necessarily have months/weeks/etc; so strftime and that stuff is not used mainly but for international calendars you will have a different function, and won't use the locales like C and POSIX are using. < 1719856792 124434 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :For general timekeeping, there are four kind of timestamps: SI relative, SI absolute, UTC relative, UTC absolute. These can be converted into whatever kind of calendars you want to use, but these four kind are independent of the calendars in use. < 1719856911 895447 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Distinguishing SI and UTC is necessary in order to deal with leap seconds. Furthermore, they use the number of seconds and nanoseconds; UTC timestamps may have a number of nanoseconds exceeding one billion in some cases. Furthermore, arithmetic on such timestamps may sometimes result in missing fields, which is just something that you will have to deal with.) < 1719857022 999180 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de JOIN #esolangs * :rodgort < 1719857041 598821 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :This way would also avoid the confusion involving Julian vs Gregorian calendar, hopefully. < 1719857103 510819 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1719857524 511107 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, neither Unicode nor TRON code nor any other character set solves all of the problems. Some people expect to solve it by just putting in Unicode, but that won't help and neither will TRON code. TRON code has many advantages over Unicode in my opinion, but what a program or file format should need is not something that is solved merely by putting in some kind of universal character set. < 1719857556 881995 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1719857641 38445 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :What I had consider with operating system design though, is it can handle "long character sets" and "short character sets". The long character set is Extended TRON Code. Short character sets always use 8-bit codse. (Individual programs can do what they need to do, although these are the general uses by what is handled and interchanged by most things in the operating system that need to deal with text.) < 1719857651 625243 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Not everything does need to deal with text, of course.) < 1719857783 641923 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1719858212 965149 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1719858243 366177 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :UCS-G is something that would make sense for some programs to support, if they deal with Unicode-based encodings such as UTF-8 and UTF-32 (although perhaps not UTF-16, since that is more complicated and is not the simple obvious thing to do which can be done directly and easily). < 1719858833 564539 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… > 1719859690 763117 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131915&oldid=131911 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+1) 10/* XOR */ > 1719859746 472356 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131916&oldid=131915 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+0) 10/* A OR B */ < 1719860423 909971 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1719860588 429073 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs * :lisbeths > 1719862556 197977 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Shape-Machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131917&oldid=131864 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+2) 10 > 1719862607 326639 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Shape-Machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131918&oldid=131917 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-29) 10/* Python3 */ > 1719862630 69325 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Shape-Machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131919&oldid=131918 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-101) 10 > 1719863136 137712 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Shape-Machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131920&oldid=131919 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+120) 10/* Implementations */ < 1719863816 4045 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`learn The password of the month is making the garbage collector hard to implement with its unpredictable lifetime. < 1719863820 782860 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Relearned 'password': The password of the month is making the garbage collector hard to implement with its unpredictable lifetime. > 1719864147 30735 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131921&oldid=130126 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+43) 10/* Looping counter */ > 1719864161 646134 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131922&oldid=131921 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+43) 10/* Looping counter */ > 1719866157 329732 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SPIKE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131923&oldid=131853 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-82) 10/* Commands */ > 1719866303 506008 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-S)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131924&oldid=129200 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+39) 10/* Spin */ > 1719866341 470758 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131925&oldid=130114 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-217) 10/* */ > 1719866380 845830 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131926&oldid=131925 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-105) 10/* */ > 1719866403 534224 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131927&oldid=131926 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+104) 10/* */ < 1719866557 955069 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.144.6 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale < 1719867005 766040 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1719868101 357712 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 JOIN #esolangs salpynx :realname < 1719868469 548990 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1719868576 538269 :esolangs!~esolangs@techne.zem.fi JOIN #esolangs esolangs :esolangs.org < 1719868576 635578 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services.libera.chat MODE #esolangs +v :esolangs > 1719868863 535021 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Shape-Machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131928&oldid=131920 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+121) 10/* Implementations */ I don't quite understand what this is, but here's an interactive graph. < 1719868931 638631 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.144.6 QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1719869345 648920 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.144.6 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale < 1719869396 762942 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.144.6 QUIT :Client Quit < 1719869553 456221 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1719869597 722786 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Bah, `apt full-upgrade` (from Debian 11 to 12) wants to install apache2 for some reason. < 1719869775 796033 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Can't really tell why. As it stands, `aptitude why apache2` just says certbot (installed) suggests python3-certbot-apache, which depends on apache2, but that's just a 'suggests', and it's not planning to install python3-certbot-apache, I think `aptitude why` just tries to explain why it might currently be needed, not what might eventually need it after the upgrade. < 1719869858 697296 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It is planning to install libapache2-mod-php8.2, which might be the reason why it's planning to install apache2, so maybe it's something to do with the PHP upgrade. < 1719869859 531558 :JAA!~JAA@user/meow/JAA PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, it's a bit of a pain to debug that kind of thing. < 1719869875 777022 :JAA!~JAA@user/meow/JAA PRIVMSG #esolangs :You could do `apt-cache rdepends apache2` and then compare that to what is being installed. < 1719869925 401403 :JAA!~JAA@user/meow/JAA PRIVMSG #esolangs :Another thing to try would be to disable recommended packages, but that might not be desirable in all cases. < 1719870007 356421 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It is going to install php8.2, which depends on "libapache2-mod-php8.2 | php8.2-fpm | php8.2-cgi, php8.2-common", but it's installing php8.2-fpm so it shouldn't also need to install libapache2-mod-php8.2 too. But I'm still guessing it's a PHP thing. < 1719870065 247738 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's also going to use "986 MB of additional disk space" which is _slightly_ concerning because the wiki-machine is already using 66% (17G) of the available 25G of disk. < 1719870146 37308 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :`apt full-upgrade --no-install-recommends` doesn't want apache2, so I guess it is a recommended package somewhere indeed. Maybe I'll diff what it's planning, and if nothing important seems to be left out I'll go with that. < 1719871092 408090 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :why is php installed in first... never mind, it's for MediaWiki obviously < 1719871139 200456 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname < 1719871926 963437 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1719872332 948522 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I just went with the default full-upgrade and then uninstalled apache2 after the fact. < 1719872355 638302 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The nginx metrics powering my fancy dashboard were broken by the upgrade though. < 1719872542 373344 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Just one more reboot, hopefully. < 1719872646 296758 :esolangs!~esolangs@techne.zem.fi JOIN #esolangs esolangs :esolangs.org < 1719872646 333082 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services.libera.chat MODE #esolangs +v :esolangs < 1719873012 422511 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I really should have some sort of a staging environment set up for this thing. > 1719873032 455502 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Main Page14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131929&oldid=130462 5* 03Rdococ 5* (+196) 10/* Fix the name */ new section < 1719873427 969633 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Things seem to be mostly working, except the HackEso container doesn't. < 1719873496 895893 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's set up in a systemd-nspawn thing, in which the UML stuff runs, but now `machinectl shell ...` just immediately exits. > 1719873588 508875 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfish/Implementations (M-Z)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131930&oldid=131602 5* 03Zzo38 5* (+286) 10Super ZZ Zero (assembly) < 1719873789 757693 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wonder what's wrong with that. `machinectl login ...` does give me a getty "in" it (well, the hostname looks right and so on), but I can't log in because there are no users with passwords in there. > 1719873952 373638 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:One Time Cat14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=131931 5* 03EvyLah 5* (+212) 10/* How does the program actually work? */ new section > 1719873961 534589 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:One Time Cat14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131932&oldid=131931 5* 03EvyLah 5* (+90) 10forgot signature > 1719873998 135327 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:One Time Cat14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131933&oldid=131932 5* 03EvyLah 5* (+0) 10 < 1719874640 576544 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh < 1719874745 540431 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm. `systemd-run -M ... -P` seems to work for running things in the container. I think it must be some sort of pty and/or permissions problem. < 1719874985 543716 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Managed to dig down the error for the bot, which seems to be something networking-related. < 1719875476 84926 :esolangs!~esolangs@techne.zem.fi JOIN #esolangs esolangs :esolangs.org < 1719875476 150001 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services.libera.chat MODE #esolangs +v :esolangs < 1719875524 855407 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.144.6 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale < 1719875931 355512 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Would a computer architecture that performs addition using a lookup table in memory be considered esoteric? > 1719875932 395044 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General Compute Coprocessor14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131934&oldid=131912 5* 03B jonas 5* (+301) 10 < 1719876061 879778 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo: likely, and I think there's such a machine somewhere though I don't remember the name < 1719876083 51263 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :"The 1620 was announced in 1959 and targetted at the small scientific market. Its internal code name CADET was jokingly said to mean "Can't Add, Doesn't Even Try", referring to the use of addition tables in memory rather than dedicated addition circuitry." < 1719876155 520984 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I haven't found documentation for how the tables are meant to be loaded in memory. One reference to maybe loading the tables being part of the programs? < 1719876156 356279 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo: https://esolangs.org/wiki/BytePusher < 1719877036 44043 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh god now I want to add audio to that JS implementation < 1719877313 938650 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.144.6 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1719877720 859674 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org QUIT :Quit: I seem to have stopped.