< 1719879688 431665 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The wiki needs a page for BQN, it seems to be a popular current APL-like, and is referenced a few times from some articles already. https://mlochbaum.github.io/BQN/ < 1719881981 614020 :Koen_!~Koen@2a04:cec0:102d:e2f5:c534:72f3:4385:bb94 QUIT :Quit: Leaving... > 1719883761 789412 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:ImTooLazyToMakeAnActuallyGoodEsolang14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=131935 5* 03EvyLah 5* (+194) 10Created page with "it would be really funny if I changed , to / so you could create "morse code". ~~~~" > 1719883881 917986 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BQN14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=131936 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+221) 10I know nothing about this, just found a series of 'inspired by BQN' references and was surprised there was no article yet > 1719884092 9464 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Empty14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131937&oldid=131670 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+268) 10/* Programs */ > 1719884141 424430 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Empty14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131938&oldid=131937 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+8) 10/* Calculator */ > 1719884150 338959 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zirconium14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131939&oldid=106986 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+4) 10/* External links */ link to BQN > 1719884172 924892 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Empty14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131940&oldid=131938 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+7) 10/* 99 bottles of beer */ > 1719884296 643122 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Quiner14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131941&oldid=124422 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+4) 10/* Interpreters */ link to BQN > 1719885892 919013 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=131942 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+1601) 10Created page with "''' 'Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.''' is made by ~~~~ === > 1719885919 115513 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131943&oldid=131942 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+17) 10 > 1719885965 726446 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131944&oldid=131943 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+29) 10 > 1719885975 286470 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131945&oldid=131944 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+1) 10/* truthmachine */ > 1719886039 180647 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131946&oldid=131945 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+0) 10/* truth-machine */ > 1719886328 439808 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131947&oldid=131946 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+59) 10 > 1719886353 269996 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131948&oldid=131947 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (-157) 10 > 1719886370 336934 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131949&oldid=131543 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+100) 10 > 1719886407 806019 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131950&oldid=131948 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+29) 10 > 1719886478 865188 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131951&oldid=131950 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (-2) 10/* quine= = */ > 1719886494 927170 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131952&oldid=131951 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+8) 10/* program */ > 1719886551 777904 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131953&oldid=131952 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+114) 10/* program */ > 1719886596 736809 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131954&oldid=131953 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+62) 10/* commands */ < 1719886640 799703 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is there a reference for what "Audio Test" is supposed to sound like? My attempt to make a reference doesn't quite sound like what I've heard > 1719886760 969230 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131955&oldid=131954 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+113) 10/* program */ > 1719886907 571914 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131956&oldid=131955 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+62) 10 > 1719886928 701752 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131957&oldid=131956 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+9) 10/* /// program */ > 1719887006 141253 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131958&oldid=131957 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (-36) 10/* Slashes program */ > 1719887025 133161 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131959&oldid=131958 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+7) 10/* \ */ > 1719887110 922152 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Maybe14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131960&oldid=126816 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (-2) 10 < 1719888271 448357 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have no intuition for how ByteByteJump can do calculations < 1719889091 251092 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think you would have to use lookup tables to make calculation < 1719889301 371177 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, do the addresses have to be larger than a byte? That... makes it make more sense, you could.. modify a part of a destination address? < 1719890080 525549 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.163.176 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale < 1719892380 905639 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh < 1719892382 79118 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Well, since we have no ALU, arithmetic/logic operations have to be performed by way of table lookups, which requires X to be ≥ 2 for the machine to function at all." < 1719893686 75499 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.163.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nice quote, fizzie > 1719895115 456219 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:BytePusher14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131961&oldid=88581 5* 03Sgeo 5* (+338) 10/* Audio from "Audio Test" */ new section > 1719896354 456291 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:BytePusher14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131962&oldid=131961 5* 03Sgeo 5* (+2) 10Fix typo in repo name < 1719898216 785560 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer > 1719899926 963332 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Conedy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131963&oldid=57016 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+160) 10It's a little hard to confirm this interpreter is totally correct, it might need tuning. Bug reports more than welcome! < 1719901728 13041 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.163.176 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1719902181 145487 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1719906644 859942 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1719908056 812485 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1719909055 433862 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo: so BytePusher uses 3-byte long addresses and copies one byte at a time. The easy way to do calculations would be to have full 64k sized lookup tables for an arithmetic operation, which you may be able to afford if you have lots of RAM or ROM, or cheat by simulating ROM with hardware or software that computes the result from the lookup table on the fly. But it turns out you don't actually need full < 1719909061 469921 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :64k lookup tables, you can get away with just some 4k sized ones. Eg. have a 4k sized lookup table with hex address FE0uxy with value uy to get the low nybble of a byte xy, then one at hex address FE1uxy with value ux to isolate the high nybble, then a 4k sized table at FE2yzw with value zw+0y to add the a nybble, and a 4k sized table at FE3xzw with value zw+x0 to add a high nybble, and then to do the < 1719909067 453172 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :addition zw+xy you first use the first table at FE02xy to get 2y and then you use that 2y to look up FE2yzw to get the intermediate result zw+0y, let's call that st, then look up FE13xy to get 3x, then use that to look up FE3xst to get the final result st+x0 of the addition. You can do subtraction and bitwise ops in a similar way, and even multiplication with an extra addition step using a table to < 1719909073 457275 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :multiply with low nybble and another table to multiply with high nybble. Then you can use a few more helper tables to get comparisons and the carry of addition so that you can build multi-byte integer arithmetic too. < 1719909077 464767 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I admit I don't like this model of computation, but it is workable. < 1719911053 498781 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and of course since basic arithmetic is such a common need, you'd put a bunch of tables and common subroutines like this into your ROM or KERNAL or operating system or standard library to share them among most programs ran on the computer < 1719911598 676204 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`mediatype:texts AND language:(ukr OR Ukrainian) AND scanningcenter:*` is what I used with the ia client tool. Yes, I was hoping for more too :( < 1719911600 577031 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :mediatype:texts? No such file or directory > 1719914210 178714 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Welcome to Esolang, the esoteric programming languages wiki!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131964&oldid=114186 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+33) 10/* Example */ > 1719914224 945973 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Welcome to Esolang, the esoteric programming languages wiki!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131965&oldid=131964 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+17) 10/* Quine */ > 1719914300 406810 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Welcome to Esolang, the esoteric programming languages wiki!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131966&oldid=131965 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-10) 10/* Quine */ < 1719914472 364246 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1719914500 467427 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas < 1719916417 146365 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown > 1719917120 5634 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Ractangle 5* 10moved [[02User:Ractangle/Inded10]] to [[User:Ractangle/None,]] > 1719917613 890095 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ractangle/None,14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131969&oldid=131967 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+300) 10 > 1719917625 790174 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Ractangle 5* 10moved [[02User:Ractangle/None,10]] to [[Ractangle/None,]] > 1719917642 107975 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move_redir10 02 5* 03Ractangle 5* 10moved [[02Ractangle/None,10]] to [[User:Ractangle/None,]] over redirect > 1719917642 125459 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete_redir10 02 5* 03Ractangle 5* 10Ractangle deleted redirect [[02User:Ractangle/None,10]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[Ractangle/None,]]" < 1719917681 516515 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.144.110 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale > 1719917856 335560 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ractangle/None,14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131974&oldid=131972 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+135) 10 > 1719918062 864725 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ractangle/None,14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131975&oldid=131974 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+13) 10/* Commands */ > 1719918093 190813 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ractangle/None,14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131976&oldid=131975 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+148) 10/* Hello, world! */ > 1719918217 529656 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ractangle/None,14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131977&oldid=131976 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+45) 10/* Commands */ > 1719918276 605253 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ractangle/None,14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131978&oldid=131977 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+37) 10/* Commands */ > 1719918368 84368 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ractangle/None,14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131979&oldid=131978 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+67) 10/* Commands */ > 1719918586 193668 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ractangle/None,14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131980&oldid=131979 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+245) 10/* Examples */ > 1719918595 413850 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ractangle/None,14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131981&oldid=131980 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-11) 10/* Deadfish implementation */ > 1719918604 392350 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ractangle/None,14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131982&oldid=131981 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+0) 10/* Deadfish implementation */ > 1719918621 322095 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Ractangle 5* 10moved [[02User:Ractangle/None,10]] to [[None,]] > 1719918653 361234 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ractangle14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131985&oldid=131787 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+36) 10 > 1719918663 655828 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ractangle14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131986&oldid=131985 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+4) 10 > 1719918741 886185 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nope.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131987&oldid=127051 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+1) 10prints Nopf. for somereason < 1719920883 39441 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… > 1719921707 978660 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131988&oldid=131916 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (-5) 10 > 1719921788 349911 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131989&oldid=131988 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (-67) 10/* A AND B */ < 1719922454 504452 :X-Scale71!~X-Scale@31.22.144.110 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale < 1719922501 958630 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.144.110 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds > 1719923273 722043 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131990&oldid=131922 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+304) 10/* Truth-machine (kinda) */ > 1719923542 837310 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131991&oldid=131990 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+89) 10/* Truth-machine (kinda) */ > 1719923819 657996 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131992&oldid=131991 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+44) 10/* Truth-machine (kinda) */ < 1719924158 933366 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Raoof < 1719924347 896368 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` thank fizzie # I see HackEso is working again. < 1719924348 819986 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :bash: thank: command not found < 1719924367 253694 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :uh < 1719924372 777613 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` thanks fizzie < 1719924373 700620 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Thanks, fizzie. Thizzie. < 1719924808 919373 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hello all, I have a very simple idea about a language inspired by Z3 and Blindfolded Arithmetic, that I conjecture to be total and turing complete, anybody interested ? should I create a page myself ? would you create one for me ? I conjecture that composition of these four function (the syntax is in javascript) < 1719924809 377418 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :sub = (a,b) => { if(a.v) return a; if(b.v) return b; return a-b-0n; } < 1719924809 877570 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :mul = (a,b) => { if(a.v) return a; if(b.v) return b; return a*b*1n; } < 1719924810 377700 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :div = (a,b) => { try{ if(a.v) return a; if(b.v) return b; return a/b*1n; }catch(e){ if(e.name==="RangeError") return {v:a,toString(){return this.v.toString();},[util.inspect.custom](){return this.v;}}; else throw e; } } < 1719924810 887364 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :inc = (a) => { if(a.v) return a; return a+1n; } < 1719924811 377320 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :are turing complete < 1719924833 371883 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Tarski => isn't this just underload without S and with the primitives renamed? < 1719924875 171875 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know, let me read it < 1719925002 525983 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: I don't understand, how would you get any loop from that? it looks like all those functions just finish quickly. also there's no nullary function so I'm not sure how you start building anything, or how this language is supposed to work. < 1719925003 225867 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, it was just a network configuration problem as far as the bot was concerned. Although I may still need to figure out why an interactive shell with a terminal in the container isn't working, since sometimes having one of those might be convenient. < 1719925118 907620 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas that is my conjecture, it does not have any loops, it is a non-recursive language < 1719925182 900493 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: if there are no loops then how can it be Turing-complete? < 1719925326 864147 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas my conjecture is that there is a non-recursive universal function for all functions in this language < 1719925350 459075 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't understand your statement then < 1719925424 661413 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :here are a few example how to program with it, you can see that all function from integer to integer are computable in the limit (meaning unbounded program length) < 1719925425 159247 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :zero = (a) => sub(a,a) < 1719925425 659408 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :one = (a) => inc(zero(a)) < 1719925426 159934 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :two = (a) => inc(one(a)) < 1719925426 659371 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :three = (a) => inc(two(a)) < 1719925427 159380 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :negate = (a) => sub(zero(a),a) < 1719925427 659231 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :add = (a,b) => sub(a,negate(b)) < 1719925428 185926 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :rem = (a,b) => sub(a,mul(b,div(a,b))) < 1719925428 660019 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :square = (a) => mul(a,a) < 1719925429 159419 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :isNonZero = (a) => div(square(sub(square(a),one(a))),square(add(square(a),one(a)))) < 1719925429 659045 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :isZero = (a) => isNonZero(isNonZero(a)) < 1719925430 162670 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :not = (a) => isNonZero(a) < 1719925430 659835 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :and = (a,b) => isZero(add(isZero(a),isZero(b))) < 1719925431 159384 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :or = (a,b) => isZero(mul(a,b)) < 1719925431 659949 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :eq = (a,b) => isZero(sub(a,b)) < 1719925432 159971 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :notEq = (a,b) => not(eq(a,b)) < 1719925432 660008 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :divz = (a,b) => div(a,add(b,isNonZero(b))) < 1719925433 159796 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :If = (a,b,c) => add(mul(isNonZero(a),b),mul(isZero(a),c)) < 1719925516 390011 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :now if you can find a non-recursive universal function then it shows that the language is turing complete < 1719925532 887870 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1719925583 141286 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but these building block functions and their compositions are computable. if you can't make an infinite loop from them then they can't be turing-complete, right? < 1719925750 140160 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :no it is logically possible that there is a non-recursive universal function but to find it I need a breakthrough in my understanding < 1719925750 230807 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or more concretely, it looks as if whatever you compose from these building blocks will be a function that can't grow faster than a polynomial in its outputs < 1719925752 769339 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :in its inputs < 1719925775 539030 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm no, that's probably not true < 1719925784 108475 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but something like that probably is < 1719925850 658684 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :when you program a turing machine you have to encode the input similarly if you want to compute 2^n for example you have to encode the input as a unary number for example 2^11 = 4 < 1719926163 717798 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen JOIN #esolangs sbak :realname < 1719926253 546296 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: I saw what you were saying in the logs. I don't think it works that way. Your functions are always-terminating, and turing completeness requires non-terminating programs < 1719926429 273437 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :sbak I'm not convinced, can you explain why we need non-terminating programs ? < 1719926566 579252 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: I still don't understand what you start with, like what domain of values at least; and if if's just integers, then how do you get a function that grows faster than a polynomial < 1719926583 941296 :X-Scale71!~X-Scale@31.22.144.110 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1719926698 417038 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: simple argument is that any Turing complete language needs to be able to simulate arbitrary Turing machines. An always-terminating Turing complete language would therefore solve the Halting Problem < 1719926714 904277 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is proven to be impossible < 1719926834 892710 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, Turing completeness is not the be all end all of what makes a language useful or powerful. In practice, most programs don't really need it < 1719926895 933133 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1719926918 932979 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Raoof < 1719927026 984967 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've got disconnect for a few minutes, did I missed any messages ? < 1719927054 33009 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :possibly. Let me copy them for you < 1719927068 872764 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs : Raoof: simple argument is that any Turing complete language needs to be able to simulate arbitrary Turing machines. An always-terminating Turing complete language would therefore solve the Halting Problem < 1719927073 544764 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs : which is proven to be impossible < 1719927077 667958 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs : that said, Turing completeness is not the be all end all of what makes a language useful or powerful. In practice, most programs don't really need it < 1719927246 658684 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :sbak thanks. halting function is non-computable (because Turing-Machine is a non-computable language) even if this language turn out to be turing complete < 1719927295 42891 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :sbak in my understanding non-recursive is different than non-computable < 1719927332 590411 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :by the definition of Turing-completeness, a Turing-complete language needs to be able to simulate _any_ Turing machine. Including non-terminating ones. < 1719927344 881526 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :therefore a Turing-complete language has non-terminating programs < 1719927451 1568 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought that Turing-completeness means to be able to compute all total computable function, I change my conjecture this language can compute all total computable functions < 1719927478 760621 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: how do you get a power function, like a function f such that for any nonnegative integer x, f(x) is equal to 2 to the power of x ? < 1719927661 922922 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas if you want to compute an exponential function you have to encode the input as a unary number for example 4 in unary is 1111 or we can use 9 as the unary symbol and use 9999 so f(9999) = 16 < 1719927781 544867 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: er no, now you're inputting in unary but outputting in binary, that's cheating. or if you insist then compute a double exponential with that encoding. < 1719928157 602881 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas I don't understand why that is cheating, can you explain ? I don't think double exponential makes a difference but I have to think about that < 1719928292 338685 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: you're using a different encoding for the input than for the output, and since the input is encoded in a way that's exponentially larger then sure, then you can get one exponential. but if you want to implement all total functions from integers to integers then you need to implement arbitrarily fast growing functions, just one or two or < 1719928292 838507 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :three exponential doesn't cut it, you need to be able to implement ackermann too. but these building blocks look like they can't grow any faster than just a polynomial, which is why I asked for an exponential. < 1719929045 559948 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas if you have a universal function then you can define ack(m,n) = u(g(m,n),m,n) , where g(m,n) is a substitution function for ack < 1719929182 335406 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas do you think that doesn't work ? < 1719929203 669638 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: I don't understand what you're saying or how this is related to what you were saying earlier about those sub and mul and div and inc functions < 1719929299 843162 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you defined g and u then you can define ack < 1719929362 248302 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :what is g and u and how do you get them from composing those earlier functions? < 1719929567 560892 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas that is the breakthrough that I need in my understanding, it is not obvious to me that they don't exist < 1719929674 288230 :amby!~ambylastn@2a00:23c5:ce05:7801:50c1:c6ef:17ef:c2d9 JOIN #esolangs amby :realname < 1719930141 793677 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, then either you'll need to prove that any multi-variate function that you compose from those building blocks is bound in magnitude by a polynomial of the magnitudes of its inputs; or, if you get past that by modifying the building blocks to avoid that problem, then I'd need to figure out how the diagonal argument works to prove why this kind of < 1719930142 259691 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :thing with just total functions as building blocks, and I'm not ready for that right now < 1719931011 305898 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :basically, consider a reasonable numbering of all the compositions of your building blocks. consider S, a function such that S(p) is one plus the result of the composition numbered p called on the integer p. Since your building blocks are total and computable, S is also computable and total. you claim that you can get any computable total function < 1719931011 801720 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :as a composition of your building blocks. so let s be the numbering of the composition that computes S. then you get S(s) = 1 + S(s) a contradiction. normally you avoid this problem because you use at least one non-total building block, and S(s) will just be an infinite loop or other error. < 1719931120 223006 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas you can't use diagonal argument, diagonal argument is blocked by div operation < 1719931149 501310 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: what do you mean by blocked? didn't you define div as a total function too? < 1719931192 205137 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas yes n/0 = gapped n < 1719931244 641700 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :then what do you mean by "blocked"? < 1719931372 320306 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :because n/0 returns a gapped value you can't define a diagonal function < 1719932886 67509 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas if you send a message in the pass 25 minutes I didn't get it < 1719933596 545187 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: if it's the "one plus" in the definition of S above that is your problem, because it's not defined for the kind of value that div(1, 0) returns, then let's just say S(p) gives 500 instead if calling the composition numbered p on the integer p returns a non-integer value. < 1719933884 828263 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas not you can define S but you can NOT diagonalize it, because S(s) returns s+1 but there is no contradiction because s+1 is a gapped value < 1719933970 865211 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :the definition of S is such that when you give it the input s it divide by zero and returns s+1 < 1719934135 445714 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean it could returns any gapped value < 1719934359 625399 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I must have said "gap value" instead of "gapped value" I don't know why I wrote "gapped" < 1719934454 468449 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I still don't understand what you're saying about why the diagonal argument wouldn't work. < 1719935007 135503 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas you defined S as S(p) = 1+u(p,p) and you get a contradiction by calling S on s but that does not work because u(p,p) returns a gap value < 1719935111 276951 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :1+a gap value = a gap value so no contradiction < 1719935358 19440 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :you defined S(p) = 1 + u(p,p) to get a contradiction but S(s) = u(s,s) because u(s,s) is a gap value < 1719935427 718797 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1719935565 28572 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Not about the above, https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8088 about the 2 symbol 5 state Turing machine busy beaver < 1719936181 413692 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1719936181 461712 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen JOIN #esolangs sbak :realname < 1719936219 516394 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot JOIN #esolangs lambdabot :Lambda_Robots:_100%_Loyal < 1719936226 233372 :Koen!~Koen@2a04:cec0:1165:c260:f0:f37b:1ee0:ffca JOIN #esolangs * :Koen < 1719936285 294158 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1719936362 98335 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :@bot < 1719936362 184874 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs ::) < 1719936368 637057 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :> [1..] < 1719936369 988510 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,... > 1719938388 83925 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07List of ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131993&oldid=131884 5* 03Gggfr 5* (+50) 10/* Looks Like */ > 1719938646 465884 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07List of ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131994&oldid=131993 5* 03Gggfr 5* (+122) 10/* General Ideas */ > 1719938711 936963 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07List of ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131995&oldid=131994 5* 03Gggfr 5* (+0) 10/* General Ideas */ > 1719939484 504650 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Billiards14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131996&oldid=74319 5* 03Gggfr 5* (-9) 10 < 1719940401 23246 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1719941485 787122 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1719941526 571319 :Koen!~Koen@2a04:cec0:1165:c260:f0:f37b:1ee0:ffca QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1719942134 702276 :Koen!~Koen@2a04:cec0:1165:c260:4dda:4e44:1691:4fd2 JOIN #esolangs * :Koen < 1719942514 958982 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1719942533 931516 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Raoof < 1719942628 941621 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fbd:8001:614a:ffc8:bf24:a0c1 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic < 1719942660 607747 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1719942832 153906 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: there is a computational class called ELEMENTARY, which has inspired various esolangs that don't seem to be documented on the wiki < 1719942832 273156 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELEMENTARY#Basis_for_ELEMENTARY < 1719942832 289566 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Client Quit < 1719942846 827918 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1719942857 500095 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: I suspect your language is ELEMENTARY: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELEMENTARY < 1719942898 97911 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, hmm, ELEMENTARY requires some sort of exponentiation to exist (even if it's just 2**x) < 1719942968 318407 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been meaning to write up (some concrete version of) ELEMENTARY on the wiki for a while, it's a fun language < 1719942975 107356 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sub-TC but can do things like primality checking < 1719943007 787016 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523 does it have a universal function ? < 1719943075 781092 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :not within itself – because it's computable, there are universal functions for it but you have to define them in some other language < 1719943103 449797 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, hmm, I am not 100% certain that it doesn't have a self-interpreter – more like 90% < 1719943185 354637 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ELEMENTARY cannot do a tetration, that might be enough to be able to prove it unable to self-interpret given reasonable program encodings < 1719943272 236927 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, given a reasonable program encoding, you can start with x and y and use ELEMENTARY to generate an encoding of x**(x**(x**(x**…))) with y xs – that's just producing a repeating string which is pretty easy with this level of power < 1719943302 944606 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so a self-interpreter can't exist because it wouldn't be able to evaluate that string – if it could, it would let you do a tetration in ELEMENTARY which is known to be impossible < 1719943365 574296 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, I am not sure your language is even as powerful as ELEMENTARY – it can't obviously do an exponentiation < 1719943391 526441 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: so this is a smaaler class than primitive recursive functions? < 1719943413 215243 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yes < 1719943469 530892 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think of the power of primitive recursive as "this actually can't do all total programs – but if you think of a total program off the top of your head rather than trying to construct it as a counterexample, it can probably implement it" < 1719943495 822382 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and ELEMENTARY is like that too, people thinking of an arbitrary total function probably aren't going to think of the Ackermann function or a tetration < 1719943607 362236 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ELEMENTARY contains EXPTIME, so it can solve any problem that doesn't need more than exponential time to solve (thus it also contains PSPACE and NP) < 1719943680 586613 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see < 1719943702 694880 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it can also solve any problem that needs double exponential time, right? because that does come up often < 1719943790 342016 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523 in this language (let's call it Ar) all function from Z to Z including non-computable functions are computable in the limit, that's makes it special I think, I also not convince that it can't compute the ackermann function because Ar blocks digonalization argument I don't know how to convince myself that it does not have a universal function < 1719943790 841470 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :or ack < 1719943810 3202 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I would expect it to, but don't have a reference/proof to hand < 1719943860 243218 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: assuming a finitely long program (i.e. not in the limit), it can't compute the Ackermann function because it can be implemented using a primitive recursive interpreter < 1719943914 386048 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the "in the limit" argument is interesting, if you are taking an infinitely long sequence of finite programs and then taking the limit of the results they evaluate to, you are effectively adding loops to the language < 1719944001 888428 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I would definitely expect it to be TC then, assuming a reasonable definition of the way in which programs are allowed to grow from one sequeence element to the next < 1719944011 653962 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, it's probably unnecessarily complicated for that purpose < 1719944089 722850 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah right, multiplication + division + modulo + an infinite loop is enough to implement https://esolangs.org/wiki/Tip (and modulo is trivial to implement in terms of the operations you already have) < 1719944157 772373 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523 why do you think it's complicated ? you can easily define "if then else" "not" == < > <= >= < 1719944206 190914 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: that's why the language is unnecessarily complicated – it's too easy to define things in it < 1719944213 112323 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it could probably be simpler whilst still being TC < 1719944246 976305 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1719944253 313033 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1719944253 674339 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for example, you have special handling for division by zero that needs special-casing in all your primitives – but it's TC even if division by zero is considered undefined behaviour < 1719944281 679964 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's a tradeoff between "language is complicated but allows simple programs" and "language is simple, so the programs have to be complicated" < 1719944332 725408 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so if the programs are too simple, it leaves me concerned that the language might be too complicated < 1719944383 244690 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523 I still don't understand why do you think it's complicated, my idea with Ar is that it is just arithmetic < 1719944428 593524 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1719944551 784529 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523 I have special-casing in my primitive in order to block the diagonalization argument so to leave it an open question whether the language has a universal function or not < 1719944771 267236 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523 you can remove all special-casing and return the empty string when division by zero occur that does not change the fact that it is in the limit super-TC < 1719945255 725171 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523 in your idea of primitive recursive interpreter, is the input in unary base or is it an integer ? < 1719945286 239436 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine > 1719945326 148570 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ADxc14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131997&oldid=72962 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+156) 10Introduced an examples section which embraces as its incipial member a partial geometric series generator. < 1719945336 113278 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord > 1719945372 807116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ADxc14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131998&oldid=131997 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+185) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the ADxc programming language on GitHub and supplemented the Implemented category tag. < 1719945444 816410 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: I think the normal definition of primitive recursive can only take integers as input, but it doesn't really matter – primitive recursive is enough power to change between bases, including unary < 1719945621 117350 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"multiplication + division + modulo + an infinite loop is enough to implement https://esolangs.org/wiki/Tip" => you also need some kind of conditional to dispatch on the IP, but you can make that from multiply and divide if you also have an add constant operation, right? then you can simulate Tip or Fractran. > 1719945652 152355 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ADxc14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=131999&oldid=131998 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+254) 10Improved the code fragments' formatting and reformatted the example steps in a tabular form. < 1719945669 464934 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: you don't need a conditional, what you do is use a modulo chain to reduce the number to 0 or 1 and then multiply by it < 1719945684 101995 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, but that needs addition < 1719945692 490463 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe I am missing an operation > 1719945733 471580 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ADxc14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132000&oldid=131999 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (-13) 10Removed the duplicate Examples header erroneously introduced by myself. < 1719945759 55546 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523 assuming the input and ouput are integer and you write a function assuming that the input is in unary form, does that make the interpreter more powerful ? < 1719945765 932962 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1719946742 206631 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh, the idea of the limit of a sequence of finite programs is a very neat idea for an esolang actually < 1719946747 40142 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :sounds like a pain to implement though < 1719946776 255712 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1719946852 950823 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sbak: maybe look at the https://esolangs.org/wiki/(0) family of languages then < 1719946852 997621 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1719946952 93921 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: it can depend on the language, but usually no for languages that aren't very restricted in terms of space or time < 1719947299 669218 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523 I have a hunch that it makes a difference because a universal function is a meta program ( it takes source code as input ) < 1719947370 643275 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1719947955 884430 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523 if you have a magical universal function u(f) := f(0) and a magical substitution function g(f,n) := "substitute n in f" then you can define f(n) := u(g(f,n)) < 1719948511 488516 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: I don't think g is well defined < 1719948527 452059 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and even if it were, it wouldn't work – there might be a different 0 somewhere that gets substituted by mistake < 1719948646 436889 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523 g is well defined I just don't know how to make it non-recursive < 1719948868 18935 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Did you know that the throughput of tunnels in Shapez (if "super-charged") depends on their length? https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-tunnel-throughput-x8.png < 1719948945 21978 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523 did you noticed that Ar is just your language Blindfold-Arithmetic just unrolled ? < 1719949058 519260 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: that's cursed < 1719949101 652428 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shikhin: note that the nominal speed here is 16/s, and the readings are divided by 2, so it's above that. < 1719949106 398509 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry, shak: < 1719949124 553558 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: what the heck? is that a true long-term throughput, or just some starting artifact possibly combined with imprecision of those meters?:w < 1719949126 970495 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no idea why irssi decided to complete to that. < 1719949136 470090 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it's long term at 8x speedup < 1719949185 492140 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well this is odd < 1719949193 782543 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought they'd all limit the throughput to 16 < 1719949206 518672 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the tunnels that is < 1719949215 239080 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also this is with 60 ticks per second, which undoubtedly is also relevant. < 1719949234 12855 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :can this be used to send high throughput to the core? < 1719949250 590542 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought the same; in fact I thought that the tunnels are belts under the hood, and belts are the one thing in this game that tries to be accurate when it comes to throughput. < 1719949264 280928 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's wacky that miner -> splitter gives 10/s in each output of the splitter, while simply a belt is 16/s < 1719949264 617303 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I agree with sbak that this is cursed < 1719949278 650619 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, the hub accepts items at any rate < 1719949301 670966 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, it's sb. < 1719949316 194357 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been thinking about making a factory game for fun, I will definitely endeavor to make it more consistent than this < 1719949357 133400 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: sure, but I'm not sure you can feed the tunnels fast enough. here you're feeding them from extractors, but that's very specialized, you won't have the right shapes extractable close to the hub. < 1719949360 140963 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sbak: Right, but it's fairly well-known that balancers (what you called a splitter) are faster than there nominal speed. < 1719949402 306965 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: right but you can feed them with a balancer that takes one belt and a bit extra. < 1719949418 305019 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :sbak have you played opus magnum ? are you interested in creating something like that using something like Ar as the base mechanic ? < 1719949438 371194 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :not interested in collaborations < 1719949448 793310 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I have not done the pertinent experiment... namely what happens if you chain several short tunnels < 1719949449 410752 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :but yes opus magnum is good < 1719949505 110963 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :sbak no collaborations just I give you feedback you give me the game :D < 1719949516 215504 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :nope that just sounds like doing work for free < 1719949594 298569 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :sbak you can monetize it as your own game, I think Ar is a theory of everything so it would be cool if somebody make a game around it < 1719949610 258639 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a hard no < 1719949623 382378 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: but (as I would expect) that works fine: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-tunnel-throughput-chained.png < 1719949651 282030 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I took the screenshot a bit too soon so the numbers are a bit lower than they should be) < 1719949663 818750 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well this is odd < 1719949712 951964 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so how much throughput into the core can you get from this? do you get more than the 20 belts throughput that the balancer setup has (though I haven't been able to reproduce that supposed throughput myself) < 1719949756 637436 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: you get the usual up to 25% < 1719949780 395162 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"usual" - the same number people get from using balancers for that purpose < 1719949823 363822 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, I think. I have not actually understood how belts work internally. < 1719949826 963364 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Err, tunnels. > 1719949829 418366 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:B jonas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132001&oldid=131914 5* 03B jonas 5* (+15) 10 < 1719949849 471097 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thank you < 1719950073 959929 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :At the root of all this is that some parts of the game effectively have a discrete throughput (an integer number of ticks per item). At 8x speedup, that number is 6 ticks per item. It stays at that value all the way to 11.93 (IIRC) speedup. < 1719950125 121241 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Err, it's 3. < 1719950129 82770 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: sorry for being rude there. what I meant is, I'm not a game developer and I'm not super interested in Ar. I want to make a game for myself to learn some new skills, but I don't think I'd be able to make what you're envisioning in a reasonable amount of time and I am not invested. < 1719950129 771254 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which incidentally means that between 10 and ~11.93, you can only feed belts 20 items per second. < 1719950157 919878 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Even though the nominal throughput ranges from 20 to ~23.86. < 1719950207 412104 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shapez.io continues to be such an odd game < 1719950231 231993 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it's written in an esolang though so I appreciate that about it < 1719950232 222608 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :@sbak that's okay, no hard feelings. < 1719950232 356736 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe you meant: smack slap < 1719950261 188253 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I still like the game though... but yeah it has quite a few implementation quirks. Not sure whether this is because the developer(s?) didn't try to be more precise or because they consciously traded precision for performance. < 1719950284 279269 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :Shapez 2 is shaping up to be pretty nice < 1719950291 715075 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :pun not intended actually < 1719950312 552495 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway, let me try to get a handle on the real odditity I was trying to look into. https://old.reddit.com/r/shapezio/comments/1dto2zq/why_does_this_cause_gaps/ can be minimized to https://int-e.eu/~bf3/r/shapez-quarterbelt-speed.png < 1719950363 96950 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(where the top part "leaks" items at speedups between 8 and 9, and 9 and 10 (excluding the bounds)). < 1719950553 279052 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So it looks like there's some artifact in handling that one extremely short belt. < 1719950630 436189 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :corner belts and throughput issues makes me think of the corner belt throughput issue factorio used to have < 1719950642 397675 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :where the items had hitboxes and collision was wacky in corners > 1719952425 643074 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132002&oldid=131992 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+108) 10/* Python interpreters */ > 1719952564 115287 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Ractangle 5* 10moved [[02Opening square bracket10]] to [[User:Ractangle/Opening square bracket]] > 1719952741 4366 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Shape-Machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132005&oldid=131928 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+18) 10 > 1719952834 558945 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Shape-Machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132006&oldid=132005 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+45) 10/* > */ > 1719952849 830951 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Shape-Machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132007&oldid=132006 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-100) 10/* > */ > 1719953009 226285 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Shape-Machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132008&oldid=132007 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+31) 10 > 1719953081 839637 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Shape-Machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132009&oldid=132008 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+27) 10 < 1719953155 931501 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1719954418 225462 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 JOIN #esolangs salpynx :realname < 1719955327 458244 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1719955831 321563 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User > 1719956374 67706 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Salpynx14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=132010&oldid=131149 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+398) 10/* TODO: Esolang projects I'd like to finish or start (not necessarily complete, or in order) */ < 1719956432 681537 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: fwiw I think Countercall was proven sub-TC at some point, but I forget the details, and it wasn't me who proved it < 1719956568 608720 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh ok, I saw Keymaker had looked into it and developed Vein, but there seemed to be no final conclusion about Countercall. < 1719956638 793466 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel like a similar thing happened with Footsteps -- I know I was looking to it, then got other ideas and parked it. < 1719956654 130672 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1719956829 713382 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I might be misremembering though < 1719956834 530183 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have what seems to be a working Conedy interpreter, it can output and accepts input (clumsily atm). I now need to figure out how to do basic things with it. < 1719956888 607883 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :A truth machine would be a good first step, and I notice Trajedy has a lot of helpful guidance. I don't know how much will apply to Conedy though. < 1719956965 144328 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In comparison, Countercall looks more straightforward and was tempting for that reason :) < 1719957007 652820 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Countercall starts out looking easy and then gets amazingly confusing to think about < 1719957033 795128 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because when you try to store things on the call stack you end up stuck in a lot of nested loops with various iteration counts that you can't control very well < 1719957068 541908 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had a feeling there would be a trick... my first first thought was it did look very easy... but suspiciously so < 1719957423 718541 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :interesting, is it actually more powerful than a pushdown automaton? < 1719957481 483242 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :A bracket matching algorithm in Conedy would be satisfying. It wouldn't prove anything (other than confirm PDA), but it'd be a nice illustration of something practical. I can't yet think how to begin, but it should be an 'easy' example. < 1719957585 320836 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought I coudl squeeze bracket matching out of the Doors language recently, but that is only FSA-equivalent, despite having an infinte counter. < 1719957609 840459 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"language that has an infinite counter but you can't use it" is possibly an esolang genre < 1719957646 661325 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. you can count up infinitely in BuzzFizz, but can only read the value of the counters modulo constants so there are only finitely many distinguishable states < 1719957669 983443 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and this same general principle is the reason why Three Star Programmer needs three stars rather than two < 1719957761 431650 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I did get quite interested in that aspect, I wasn't sure if that fits the computational class + a bit extra. I concluded that it was 'extensionally equal' to a FSA, so it's not really extra power. < 1719957786 749451 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and, yes, it seems FSA + infinte counter is common < 1719957911 534186 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually thinking about it, are there systems that are more powerful than PDAs but less powerful than Turing machines? (without using silly contrivances like "it's a PDA but it has one specific program that accepts the language of squares") < 1719958020 381082 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sbak: LBAs are semi-common < 1719958048 276362 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh yes I see, I forgot about those < 1719958099 816772 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sbak: That's the current claim about Conedy on the article < 1719958180 693745 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a PDA, plus a few things that PDAs clearly can't do but aren't obviously useful for climbing up into higher computational classes < 1719958507 517691 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This discussion has me thinking there is value in clearly demonstrating basic FSA, then PDA equivalence for tarpit languages that are hard to reason about, before tackling TCness. < 1719958509 814172 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :so in Conedy, if there are two adjacent nets "pointing" toward each other, does the IP just get stuck in an infinite loop? like in the case aBcbCA < 1719958568 57594 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even if the FSA proof is trivial, just having a concrete touch point will help ground further work < 1719958586 955955 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sbak: aBc bCa is an infinite loop, yes < 1719958616 888246 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also "Hitting the boundary of two nets simultaneously is undefined behaviour." < 1719958619 190552 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :without the space, it's UB because there's a point at which the IP is in two nets simultaneously < 1719958718 110429 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh yes I see. that didn't register to me because I was envisioning "hitting the boundary of two nets simultaneously" as _entering_ two nets simultaneously < 1719958722 612993 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :not exiting one and entering the other < 1719958751 807443 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I didn't code anything specific for that to shortcut calculations, or validate that nets are separated. If practical problems arise from running examples, I'll perhaps add something < 1719958767 974316 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is undefined behavior after all < 1719959136 837639 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do wonder how many 'implemented' esolangs on the wiki have fundamentally broken interpreters which will never be noticed. Confirming I haven't just written one is going to be quite hard :) < 1719959167 689076 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's quite easy to make such a mistake < 1719959170 320351 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :so probably a lot < 1719959228 867685 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think Underload gets a special reward for this – there is part of the spec that nobody implements, not even the original interpreter < 1719959236 512509 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1719959236 837412 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and so it's arguably whether it's actually part of the spec or not at this point < 1719959241 827740 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :bye fungot < 1719959260 224789 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Rebooting the fungot box after finally going to Debian 12.) < 1719959285 488652 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: what part of the spec is that? < 1719959307 750674 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sbak: " as an escape character to escape itself and <>[], which can't be used unescaped < 1719959331 357606 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's kind-of pointless because a) none of those characters are special-cased otherwise and b) it can't escape () which are the characters you'd really care about < 1719959361 396687 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's not a particularly hard thing to implement, I was expecting something more silly :p < 1719959366 5391 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also discovered that some people have written Underload interpreters to ignore (rather than crash on) unrecognised characters < 1719959385 203711 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sbak: if you want something silly, HOMESPRING defines the character strings " . " and ". ." to cause temporal paradoxes < 1719959393 116655 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :very good < 1719959407 535400 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a JOIN #esolangs fungot :fungot-0.1 < 1719959420 980935 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :welcome back fungot < 1719959421 943686 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: food is for mortals... oh wait... i think that's great, too. pity that's the following week. i'm not really sure whether i will yet. < 1719959506 478304 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh, in my client, everyone who's spoken recently has a nick in the cyan-purple range, except lambdabot who is gray and still fits within the range, and fungot, whose green nick came as a bit of a surprise because it disturbed the color-coordination < 1719959506 761494 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: taking a stack-based approach. let me find the list of his children < 1719959508 890426 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot has realized its own mortality it seems < 1719959509 483323 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :sbak: " always prefer the probable impossible to the the bytecoded implementations?' < 1719959566 625240 :SGautam!uid286066@id-286066.ilkley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs SGautam :Siddharth Gautam < 1719959617 6395 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://zem.fi/tmp/colors.png <- also all pretty similar, hue-wise. < 1719959629 112698 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been working on a funge-98 interpreter actually. planning to implement TRDS next, that's gonna be fun < 1719959659 873480 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :how does it do on Mycology? < 1719959682 858480 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :passes everything except BADs on the >128 ASCII character because I haven't fiddled with character encodings yet < 1719959710 683619 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's supposed to be 0xDE but ends up as 0xFFDE < 1719959723 92257 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname < 1719959837 139890 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've done all the fingerprints defined in the official spec too, except for TURT and PERL which I don't know if I'm even gonna do < 1719959845 731786 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Looks like there've been a handful of cfunge commits since the version 'got is running on, too. < 1719959847 118603 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :some of the fingerprints seem, dare I say, "too serious" < 1719959956 865805 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :though I noticed FPSP and FPDP don't have any greater-than comparison, making comparison absolutely silly for floating point numbers. wonder if that's on purpose to make them more silly < 1719960012 89512 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it was possibly an oversight < 1719960027 267022 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :esoteric libraries are commonly designed and implemented without actually being used much < 1719960039 501266 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :that is true < 1719960041 999857 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so obvious oversights can exist without people noticing for a while < 1719960086 566245 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been thinking about defining an FPCP fingerprint (floating point comparison) just to fix that lol < 1719960127 28035 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you could have options for how to handle NaN and negative zero in the comparisons < 1719960147 517248 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and whether infinities are equal to themselves < 1719960164 240532 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm it would be kind of funny if it had an absurd amount of instructions just so it's inconvenient to use in conjunction with FP(S/D)P < 1719960225 914070 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually, not an absurd amount, just enough to cover the same letters as FP(S/D)P's basic arithmetic < 1719960227 830312 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"this fingerprint might be badly designed, but it's badly designed for a reason!" < 1719960244 911377 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :and that reason is being funny < 1719960257 824938 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot uses the STRN, FILE, FING, SOCK, REXP, TOYS and SUBR fingerprints (with the last two only used for ^reload and ^code, respectively). < 1719960258 88185 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: you may pick one of two function pointers. :) < 1719960270 477256 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: Okay, I'll pick the second one. < 1719960271 6563 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: however, it tends not to be the same for scheme48 as for anything else than stand up. < 1719960361 258530 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :^code < 1719960367 587597 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :^help code < 1719960367 648527 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool < 1719960378 857625 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's an admin-only command that runs the line using SUBR as Funge-98 code. < 1719960384 55054 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, I see < 1719960391 828923 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The idea being that I could use it to fix issues without having to restart. < 1719960400 706645 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think I've ever managed to fix anything without breaking it more. < 1719960501 626046 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :but yeah my implementation is decently fast I think but probably takes more memory than necessary and isn't really optimized for performance either < 1719960538 268185 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :but hey at least I gave some thought to the time complexity of my funge-space :p < 1719960545 341405 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's not an n-D array! < 1719960691 73176 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which bot here can evaluate funge-98 code in IRC msgs? I'm sure there is one, but I can't remember the command < 1719960739 495601 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :bf != BeFunge obviously, but I don't know how to abbreviate funge-98 < 1719960754 287813 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :b98 probably? < 1719960761 122658 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :HackEso/HackEgo has inherited the functionality of EgoBot, which included a bunch of interpreters, but they're quite hard to use. < 1719960800 574620 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :bytepusher.wat:3:6: error: only one memory block allowed < 1719960800 919724 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs : (memory $video 4) ;; Video data in ImageData format < 1719960818 338807 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Need to update the tools I guess? argh < 1719960825 99198 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :`! befunge98 "dlrow ,olleh">:#,_@ < 1719960826 222800 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :hello, world < 1719960840 406471 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It used some sort of pretty obscure interpreter, as I recall. < 1719960852 593795 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also the repository browser is apparently borked. < 1719960866 393566 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :`! help < 1719960867 438552 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The ! or interp command calls various language interpreters transfered from old EgoBot. Try `url /hackenv/ibin/ for a list. < 1719960879 785959 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The recommended `url command gives a 502. < 1719960895 345784 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` ls /hackenv/ibin/ < 1719960896 397736 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :1l \ 2l \ 7 \ adjust \ asm \ asmbf \ axo \ bch \ befunge \ befunge98 \ bf \ bf16 \ bf32 \ bf8 \ bf_txtgen \ boolfuck \ brachylog \ c \ cintercal \ clcintercal \ cxx \ dimensifuck \ forth \ glass \ glypho \ haskell \ help \ java \ k \ kipple \ lambda \ lazyk \ linguine \ lua \ malbolge \ pbrain \ perl \ qbf \ rail \ rhotor \ sadol \ sceql \ sh \ slashes \ trigger \ udage01 \ underload \ unlambda \ whirl < 1719960913 523505 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway, those would be the things you can use with `! except I'm sure some of them won't work. < 1719960953 400522 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`! cintercal DO :1 <- #123$#456 DO READ OUT :1 PLEASE GIVE UP < 1719960956 670172 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​/usr/bin/ld: /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/inst/bin/../lib/libick.a(cesspool.o): relocation R_X86_64_PC32 against symbol `strcmp@@GLIBC_2.2.5' can not be used when making a PIE object; recompile with -fPIC \ /usr/bin/ld: /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/inst/bin/../lib/libick.a(ick_lose.o): relocation R_X86_64_PC32 against symbol `fflush@@GLIBC_2.2.5' can not be used when making a PIE object; recompile with -fPIC \ /usr/bin/ld: /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/inst < 1719960982 602823 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :case in point < 1719961000 898193 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :forced PIE has caused problems for me in the past in other contexts < 1719961059 317893 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not particularly annoyed with OSes forcing it on, but I am annoyed with there not being enough care to prevent bad side effects < 1719961091 975535 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in this case, the problem is just that libick.a was built non-PIC and can't be linked into a PIE < 1719961100 670184 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, well, I think that's what it is < 1719961182 822594 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have absolutely no recollection how the repo browser is configured, it's using hgweb and there's uWSGI involved but that's about it. < 1719961201 287448 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1719961233 773428 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Looks like it's trying to load /usr/lib/uwsgi/plugins/python_plugin.so and there's only a python3_plugin.so in there, so I guess it's that. < 1719961301 412186 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :hey btw I've come across mentions of some elusive Funge-108 or Funge-109 < 1719961305 734338 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :it seems to not quite really exist < 1719961372 578047 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel like that was an effort from the cfunge author that sort of died off. < 1719961407 165527 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there was definitely work on it but I'm not sure if that work ever finished < 1719961416 692809 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Around 2008/2009, as you might guess from the name. < 1719961430 826315 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see, makes sense < 1719961736 993597 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`🌱 3 4351329 < 1719961737 985786 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ty! < 1719961818 172661 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Huh, there's a pretty heavy traffic to /repo paths from all kinds of crawlers, wouldn't have expected that. < 1719961822 520040 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's Seed, I added that ages ago, but the output is funge-98. There is a way to pipe it back into HackEso, but it's kinda horrible < 1719961867 269338 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anthropic's ClaudeBot/1.0 was interested in /repo/rev/02ea44c6f666?revcount=7 and Amazonbot/0.1 wanted to see /repo/file/1281dde9cef7/paste/paste.29626, for example. < 1719961873 138385 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: the linalg boxes want their training data < 1719962096 7248 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`! lazyk `ik < 1719962097 37250 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​/hackenv/ibin/lazyk: 28: /hackenv/ibin/lazyk: /hackenv/interps/lazyk/lazy.bin: not found < 1719962114 672753 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot is possibly not good training data for anything other than Befunge programs (and I don't think generative AI would do very well with Befunge) < 1719962115 458786 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: http://schemers.org/ documents/ standards/ r5rs/ html/ r5rs-z-h-9.html%_idx_438 or something with black bg and a dark green grid < 1719962154 950891 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :github copilot tried to help me implement Funge operations when I started writing my interpreter < 1719962163 807950 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :it wasn't very good at it though < 1719962192 150033 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :it seemed vaguely aware of what Funge is though < 1719962254 456389 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/ibin works again. < 1719962264 735228 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :And seems like I misremembered and `befunge98` just uses cfunge. < 1719962287 823181 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` /hackenv/interps/cfunge/cfunge -v < 1719962288 826911 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :cfunge 0.9.0 [+con -trace +exact-bounds -ncurses p:64 c:32] \ \ Platform: x86_64 \ OS: Linux \ Compiler path: /usr/bin/gcc \ Compiler: GCC 4.7.2 (or compatible) \ Build type: Release \ Compiled on: Linux 3.1-5.slh.2-aptosid-amd64 (x86_64) \ \ CFLAGS=" -O3 -DNDEBUG" \ LDFLAGS=" " < 1719962302 206843 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Not even an incredibly old one. < 1719962501 637676 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.204.27.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1719962637 83413 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.195.157.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull < 1719962665 514507 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot, write a program in bf that outputs your name < 1719962666 206154 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: thanks all. :) ( even if you used a 4-ary operator in prefix but a binary operator in infix. all expressions appear in between parenthesis. if you want < 1719962720 94651 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :the main thing I optimized for in writing my funge implementation is making it as easy as possible for me to write new instructions for fingerprints, which was a fun little puzzle < 1719962724 188179 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :generative ai will be about as successful as that, but a bit more convincing at first glance < 1719962746 106976 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :it looks a bit like this https://i.postimg.cc/SKXrRTxs/image.png < 1719962829 910346 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: "not very good, but convincing at first glance" describes generative AI perfectly honestly < 1719963237 272681 :sbak!~sbak@user/sbaksteen QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1719963439 801957 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :^bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>. < 1719963439 861672 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hello World!. < 1719963499 735264 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Per ChatGPT, that was supposed to output "ChatGPT". It even explained how: https://chatgpt.com/share/d8df2bc6-2d6f-46c7-b54c-2699dd64fc04 < 1719963531 170762 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol, I was about to joke that's a best case scenario of how an ai would respond to that prompt! < 1719963555 816224 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought you were just testing f_ngot's bf ability! < 1719963648 937946 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also asked for a Befunge program -- updated at the same link. < 1719963675 389456 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It wrote one with a rolled-out print loop and for some reason it outputs "ChaTGPt", which is an interesting capitalization. < 1719963684 954464 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had similar interactions with chatGPT quite some time ago, if you were lucky it'd copy and paste exact working code from somewhere, unlucking it would modify it with totall incorrect symbols or layout < 1719963752 154570 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Asked it to use a loop instead, and now it prints "Hello, World!" again. Heh. < 1719963781 756198 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Except the loop's misaligned by one column so it actually just immediately exits after pushing the string to stack. < 1719963838 277121 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Besides, even a junior Befunge programmer should know the linear >:#,_ print loop is superior. < 1719963863 291690 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I like using k for print loops < 1719963886 681831 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it's because I've basically only used Befunge in cod golfing competitions and k is shortest < 1719963949 413706 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, I somehow suspect that there are so many BF hello worlds around that it finds it hard to write other things < 1719963960 302442 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had a funny one with quantum circuits, it was surprisingly convincing, but it was getting something wrong. I simplified it down to two non-interacting qubits < 1719963980 497259 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :turns out the ai could not imagine a 2 qubit cicuit where entanglement wasn't invloved < 1719964048 133402 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it could explain how the qubits did not interact, but them would go into detail about the resulting superposition. Apparently no one posts non-interacting qubit examples online < 1719964097 996438 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, an interesting BF-string-printing-related problem: suppose you can initialise the tape arbitrarily, then need to print a given string in the fewest characters possible, but don't know what the string is when you're initialising the tape < 1719964124 439678 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you're trying to initialise it to make arbitrary strings as tersely printable as possible < 1719964144 496687 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are almost certainly initialisations that are much better than all-zeroes < 1719964165 749022 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this isn't a precisely defined problem, just a general area of thought) < 1719964205 628839 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :some kind of QWERTY cell layout (but for letter frequency not typewriter concerns)? < 1719964219 917123 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perhaps < 1719964234 868781 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :BF string printing generally eventually comes down to adjusting multiple counters < 1719964256 236626 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although there was one hello world program, that was the record holder for length at the time, which had a [>.] to print four characters < 1719964264 156893 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, [.>] < 1719964319 314494 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you'd want to just use ><. mainly, hmmm. I think I've done this before and sometimes for uncommon characters +- _is_ quicker than moving cells < 1719964361 889004 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have the impression that they use quite a lot of +-, <> are also used but to a lesser extent < 1719964385 276114 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe the perfect tape initialisation would lead to programs where the <> were balanced with the +- < 1719964508 976317 :Koen!~Koen@2a04:cec0:1165:c260:4dda:4e44:1691:4fd2 QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1719964525 669459 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I remember now, I was using bf to generate bf symbols, and had to optimise for this on a limited alphabet +-.,[]<> < 1719964573 198779 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :... that's the same problem, but with a reduced alphabet < 1719964583 922326 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :`! bf_txtgen ChatGPT < 1719964587 417563 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :85 +++++++++++++[>+++++>++++++++>+++++++++><<<<-]>++.>.-------.>-.<<++++.+++++++++.++++. [268] < 1719964592 270014 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :`! bf +++++++++++++[>+++++>++++++++>+++++++++><<<<-]>++.>.-------.>-.<<++++.+++++++++.++++. < 1719964593 351812 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ChatGPT < 1719964605 458017 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good old >< in there. < 1719964617 588053 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow, did you just add that, or was it always there? < 1719964620 913164 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :bf_txtgen has a very rigid template that it wants to fit all its programs into < 1719964624 760231 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's been there for a very long time < 1719964638 119763 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it dates back to the HackEgo days? < 1719964643 939885 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, the other one < 1719964646 200324 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :EgoBot < 1719964658 406998 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, that's why it's under `! like that. < 1719964699 138893 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's an option to set the number of cells used in the initialization, but it has to be set /a priori/, so to say.