< 1720829011 84675 :mtm!~textual@c-71-228-84-213.hsd1.fl.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1720829175 613383 :mtm!~textual@c-71-228-84-213.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User < 1720829733 89838 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1720829768 783120 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron < 1720829818 215049 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you were looking at assembly code for a machine you were unfamiliar with, what might "BRG" mean? < 1720829858 487675 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :In context it seems like it puts the value from memory into a register, but I don't see where the register is specified < 1720829883 126011 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo: branch if greater? < 1720829912 711299 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :does it seem to have a branch target label as operand? < 1720829932 554811 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :It has a label as operand < 1720829957 135040 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :BRG SAVERP Restore A < 1720829963 660577 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if it starts with B then it's always a branch, but I'm not sure about the greater part < 1720829972 159352 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :BRG SAVEAR and R Registers < 1720829992 752455 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I wonder if RG stands for "registers" < 1720830022 881390 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :NJP is some sort of conditional procedure call, NZJ is a conditional jump < 1720830035 526567 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19680001402/downloads/19680001402.pdf page 55 of the PDF. Assembly for a General Mills computer. < 1720830041 907783 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Because General Mills made computers for NASA. < 1720830118 768161 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :dunno, old instruction mnemonics are sometimes weird, like in one of those PDP-? machines the load instruction is called clear and accumulate < 1720830124 717646 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1720830420 394067 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron < 1720830621 916776 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :My confusion is mainly about the same op being called and doing different things < 1720830641 929382 :Evylah!~Evylah@syn-096-039-227-031.res.spectrum.com JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Evylah < 1720830672 577882 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1720830703 720230 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@83.223.233.212 QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1720830884 511681 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@83.223.233.212 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale < 1720831056 573017 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron < 1720831137 794547 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :FWIW here's some details: 37-bit words, instructions are always 6 bits op code and 12 bits address < 1720831304 468358 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Vaguely think I've seen "bring" used as the opposite of "store" somewhere. < 1720831426 218648 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The "STA SAVEAP / STR SAVERP" ... "BRG SAVERP / BRG SAVEAR" pair with comments "Save A and R Registers" and "Restore A and R Registers" suggests that sort of thing, except if so then it's odd there isn't an A/R indication in the latter, the same way there is in the former. < 1720832121 165765 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Just ask Eugene? ;) https://www.linkedin.com/in/geneprocknow says he "co-developed a machine language for a General Mills AD/ECS-37A computer system" in the 70s. < 1720832312 718679 :Evylah!~Evylah@syn-096-039-227-031.res.spectrum.com QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1720832577 803351 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie, I emailed earlier today < 1720832585 969221 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, "BRG COUNT / ADD ONE / STA COUNT2 is used to "Increment Count" on PDF-page 58, so I do think it's some sort of a load instruction, though still odd that it doesn't seem to say where to put the loaded value. < 1720832622 819999 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :s/2/"/ < 1720832698 206008 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is it possible that STA/STR store not only the value but also the register identity at the label they target? Do you know how big those registers are? < 1720832755 721727 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@83.223.233.212 QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1720833552 179616 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Each bit had a foot square card and 37 cards for each register (accumulator, etc.)" -- from Eugene Procknow's reply to me > 1720834056 113766 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cantor14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133016&oldid=133013 5* 03Joe 5* (+153) 10 < 1720834123 884162 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Could BRG move A->R and mem->A? < 1720834161 997433 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :It is what I thought at first, too. < 1720834169 849565 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :But, it says SAVEAP for the save but SAVEAR is used for restoring, so it is different but the "SAVERP" is the same in both. < 1720834209 98154 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION blinks.
< 1720834215 905751 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I didn't notice that < 1720834622 200979 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, the brochure would be helpful, derp < 1720834626 709514 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/generalMills/GeneralMillsComputerBrochure_1961.pdf < 1720834658 486467 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Bring (m) to register A" is an instruction < 1720834720 789690 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :What's the difference between m and M. And I don't see how to load R with anything < 1720834932 518103 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Unless R is the I/O connected register? < 1720835104 514514 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know if "M" is a printing error, or if the program shown in there itself has printing errors (although it says "it is not intended as an operational program") < 1720835433 203830 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Nice to have a dedicated "Ring Bell" instruction, don't see that sort of thing in modern computers. < 1720835586 159197 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1720836624 3051 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :What is a "computational mode"? < 1720836649 273152 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suppose it means the most common computation. < 1720838097 510284 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.160.248 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale < 1720842432 913896 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.160.248 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1720842445 480516 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :*.net *.split < 1720842768 18136 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1720845236 691416 :anomalous!~anomalous@46.233.59.218 JOIN #esolangs * :Unknown < 1720848258 368185 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is there a simple short way to use Windows Powershell to send a binary file using a raw TCP socket? < 1720848291 839173 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(that I can then receive on this computer using netcat) > 1720848776 756446 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rizzlang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133017&oldid=132979 5* 03ZachChecksOutEsolangs 5* (+318) 10 > 1720848808 411733 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rizzlang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133018&oldid=133017 5* 03ZachChecksOutEsolangs 5* (+3) 10 < 1720849466 213640 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :There must be, since I think Powershell can call Windows APIs. < 1720851427 255186 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :AD/ECS-37 has a "B" buffer that it can use for output. < 1720851465 353025 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :And a "BI" buffer for input < 1720851657 972983 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :The NASA document has a reference to "SDS- 9 30 and AD/ ECS Interface < 1720851658 57915 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Using HSL" < 1720851665 973310 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I don't think I can find that document < 1720851727 642642 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Command Next PCM/DHE to RA Transfer " so R+A might be a combined register? < 1720852041 421126 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :EXM = 0o61 (in the configuration NASA was using) < 1720853170 836682 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1720855586 812783 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1720857246 781874 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 JOIN #esolangs cpressey :weechat < 1720857453 667236 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown < 1720858347 606162 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1720858367 950421 :dbohdan!~dbohdan@user/dbohdan QUIT :Server closed connection < 1720858387 637268 :dbohdan!~dbohdan@user/dbohdan JOIN #esolangs dbohdan :ZNC - https://znc.in < 1720858752 192245 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 JOIN #esolangs cpressey :weechat < 1720859214 931487 :Franciman!~Franciman@mx1.fracta.dev JOIN #esolangs Franciman :Franciman < 1720859305 727255 :Franciman!~Franciman@mx1.fracta.dev PART :#esolangs < 1720859928 816848 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Where's Waldo?", except it's an audiobook < 1720860284 470169 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you'd need a definition for what Waldo sounds like? < 1720860305 176688 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and try to pick him out among a conversation < 1720860354 881565 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :@pl \x y z -> x (y z) < 1720860354 944034 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :(.) < 1720860366 212273 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :@pl \x y z -> (x y) y < 1720860366 287903 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :(const .) . join < 1720860382 613069 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, maybe Haskell is missing a combinator there < 1720860442 764763 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs ::t join < 1720860443 617852 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :Monad m => m (m a) -> m a < 1720860900 396526 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, I had a conceptual issue with Turing-completeness: suppose we have a language that would otherwise be Turing-complete, but it defines a) provable infinite loops or b) any infinite loop to be undefined behaviour < 1720860924 107607 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :does this negate the Turing-completeness? < 1720860938 581407 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(where "provable" means that the interpreter can prove that an infinite loop exists) < 1720860945 868352 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(but you don't know the interpreter's proof ability) < 1720861079 570015 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Unless the interpreter has an oracle for halting, there will be infinite loops that the interpreter can't prove are infinite. So I guess the interesting case is, the interpreter does have such an oracle. < 1720861116 629839 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, if you can observably trigger the oracle, then the language is then super-Turing, isn't it? but the problem is that undefined behaviour isn't observable < 1720861123 720144 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because it might just do whatever you were expecting < 1720861292 688037 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, if you know the logic that the interpreter is using for proving loops to be infinite, then you can write a program that simultaneously a) runs a program and b) searches for a proof that it will halt < 1720861302 210087 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you can observably trigger the oracle then I guess the language is super-Turing, but that doesn't seem too surprising, since we said it had access to that oracle and we know the oracle can do something Turing machines can't < 1720861305 357327 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you succed in either, then you halt, so there's no infinite loop < 1720861323 787891 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and if neither is possible, then the program runs forever but the interpreter can't prove that it does < 1720861328 261248 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so no UB < 1720861337 885249 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :as such, it's only the oracle case that matters < 1720861361 168825 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or the case where you don't know how the interpreter is proving things, but that isn't obviously different from an oracle < 1720861409 779977 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If it has an oracle but goes out of its way to hide it and act (as far as anyone can observe) like a TM, then it's not exhibiting super-Turing behaviour - it's indistinguishable from a TM without such an oracle. < 1720861485 547693 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, I'm partly thinking of languages like C++, which defines an infinite loop to be undefined behaviour unless it has some observable side effect < 1720861498 975543 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although you can easily work around that one simply by writing to a volatile variable < 1720861503 176862 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :within the loop < 1720861540 849158 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that problem is easily fixable, but the implications are still pretty amazing < 1720861723 156265 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So the TM has an oracle. The oracle says "This will loop forever." So the TM just spins instead of running the program. If you can detect that the TM is spinning instead of running teh program, then yes. You've caught it out, you can tell it must have an oracle. < 1720861866 155100 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If the TM does something other than "just spin", e.g. maybe it runs some *other* program that it knows will never halt... that becomes harder to detect < 1720861889 708567 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have an interpreter for The Waterfall Model which detects certain infinite loops and deadlocks rather than running at 100% CPU power, that's easily detectable < 1720861894 420480 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, of course it isn't a full oracle < 1720861926 687691 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ooh, what about this: you design the program to, when it halts, print the number of execution steps it took it to halt < 1720861947 759430 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :then, you run the program – if it halts, you run it again with a step limit that's higher than the number it printed < 1720861958 601027 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if the program halts, then both runs halt, and the second run finishes in time < 1720861986 672265 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if the program doesn't halt, then regardless of what the first run does, you discover in the second run that the first run didn't halt properly, so the halt must have been due to UB < 1720862032 32566 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :as long as you can bound the UB to some extent (i.e. have a reliable way to get the interpreter back to a sane state, and don't get killed by the demons that come out of your nose), I think this makes it possible to build a TC system out of the UB-on-infinite-loop interpreter < 1720862050 149442 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, because UB prevents you reasoning about the program's behaviour at all, you need a manual restarting step to clear the UB < 1720862382 472461 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which sounds awfully close to giving a definition for undefined behaviour in your language :) < 1720862644 563818 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, yes < 1720862687 248895 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think bounded UB is quite common in esolang implementations, though – along the lines of "the program could loop forever or hold, and could produce arbitrary output of the form it normally produces, but won't do anything else" < 1720862696 477653 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* or halt < 1720862712 312325 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1720862800 955393 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*poorly* defined behaviour is quite common :) "Not fully defined behaviour" is common too, it's basically what abstraction is. > 1720862860 503549 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133019&oldid=132971 5* 03Ais523 5* (-4) 10/* Delete pages */ fix formatting < 1720862881 681494 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :You Are Reading the Name of this Esolang also requires an interpreter to be able to detect *some* infinite loops. But not all of them. So it doesn't strictly require an oracle. < 1720862935 389018 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :What you're calling UB I guess I'm now trying to think of as an abstraction < 1720862998 289500 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :John Regehr has done a lot of research on the mathematical basis behind compiler optimizations, and UB is formalized as part of that, along the lines of "a program has a set of legal behaviours, an optimization must transform it to a program that has a subset of its original behaviours" < 1720863018 316161 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so UB gives the optimizer license to do anything in a situation where UB would occur > 1720863199 113122 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133020&oldid=133019 5* 03Ais523 5* (+772) 10/* Delete pages */ some thoughts < 1720863597 302944 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.160.248 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale < 1720863781 941852 :X-Scale70!~X-Scale@83.223.249.141 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale < 1720863889 335095 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.160.248 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1720863908 415648 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1720864027 672628 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In conventional mathematics, the result of dividing by zero is undefined. But this is not usually taken as meaning that after I've divided by zero, I can submit any answer I want and carry on :) It's usually more like, we shan't go down that path as we won't get any sensible answers there. < 1720864084 668627 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right – programming language specification designers possibly went too far with that one < 1720864134 208990 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :interestingly, in declarative languages, division by zero can have a sensible definition that's consistent with the rest of the language: Y is X / 0 produces an assertion that X is 0, but no assertions on Y < 1720864143 743207 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, generally they don't seem to use that definition in practice < 1720864194 173028 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1720864841 329469 :X-Scale70!~X-Scale@83.223.249.141 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1720864913 231086 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1720866069 900816 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.146.60 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale < 1720866778 355042 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :many theorem provers agree that x/0 = 0 :P < 1720866844 32743 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And quite a few people take great issue with that. < 1720867159 815839 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 JOIN #esolangs * :weechat < 1720867338 19142 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh there's some pushback about some of the more egregious cases of undefined behavior, nice! https://isocpp.org/files/papers/P2809R3.html < 1720867642 67173 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :TC-ness is an annoyingly informal concept. Which /may/ be unavoidable because you want to leave so many aspects of models of computation open. < 1720867856 331997 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm... what if you run the machine only once? You could output a trace of the execution and then an LBA can verify that (that's almost cheating since the trace by its nature will be padded sufficiently). Can we go below that for verification? < 1720867996 745490 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can verify an appropriately encoded execution trace with two PDAs < 1720868018 616932 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i.e. if they both accept the trace it's valid < 1720868026 226935 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was headed for co-NPDA < 1720868083 854117 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :where co-nondeterministic means that every possible execution has to accept, not just one? < 1720868090 482540 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes. < 1720868104 417221 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes I think that works < 1720868113 126463 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Intersection of just two CFGs, I have to think about that. < 1720868231 380345 :GregorR!~GregorR@71.19.155.102 QUIT :Server closed connection < 1720868244 793571 :GregorR!~GregorR@71.19.155.102 JOIN #esolangs GregorR :Gregor Richards < 1720868257 579437 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The encoding I have in mind is for a single tape TM and records symbols written, symbols read, and moving left and right. Is there more useful information that one can add?) < 1720868297 105024 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh you can target a two-counter machine I guess? So one PDA checks one counter and the other checks the second one. < 1720868371 76079 :anomalous!~anomalous@46.233.59.218 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1720868417 108359 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that makes a nice puzzle actually < 1720868449 514062 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Intersection of two CFGs is undecidable, there's a famous proof of that one < 1720868456 463748 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 4.3.0 > 1720868457 713391 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:!aoQ):14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133021 5* 03Gggfr 5* (+231) 10Created page with "Thos os turing complete right? Like the bf loop is there there is ^ and V which is the same as < and > on a stack {1}+ is + in bf {1}- is - in bf right?? Idk ~~~~" < 1720868468 287215 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, you can do the same thing with a tape because it's two stacks. < 1720868472 881239 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 JOIN #esolangs cpressey :weechat < 1720868487 909504 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :That... could've been quicker :) < 1720868567 643966 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm sorry, I'm not following that closely < 1720868613 745251 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(also the execution trace could record states too for convenience, but the PDAs can keep track of that with ease) < 1720868636 443431 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: I think I went off a tangent anyway. < 1720868784 920179 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the encoding I had in mind is Thue-like: a PDA can check one step of Thue evaluation, if one of the "before" or "after" states is written backwards (but then it forgets what the string is) < 1720868811 954217 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so with two PDAs, one can check the odd steps and the other the even steps < 1720868814 571412 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah < 1720868832 805151 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if every second step is written backwards < 1720868840 176019 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :my two PDAs are deterministic now :) < 1720868859 461233 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :though you can do that for Thue if you leave a few extra markers < 1720868910 44596 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is my favourite way to show "try to prove this grammar ambiguous" to be an interpreter for a TC language < 1720868955 970054 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've not quite followed what we're trying to achieve here, but the relevant thing about the intersection-of-CFGs-proof is (quoting WP here) "the language of non-accepting computation histories of a Turing machine M on input w is a context-free language recognizable by a non-deterministic pushdown automaton." < 1720868978 520092 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 4.3.0 < 1720868993 940193 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 JOIN #esolangs cpressey :weechat < 1720868994 924952 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that was the co-NPDA, more or less < 1720869011 377256 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(but without consulting wikipedia) < 1720869012 20047 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :doesn't help that my connection keeps hiccupping < 1720869036 933130 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: yeah, but we do have logs, as I'm sure you're aware < 1720869047 311692 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Per the Computation histories article on WP, "the language of non-accepting computation histories of a Turing machine M on input w is a context-free language recognizable by a non-deterministic pushdown automaton." < 1720869070 605286 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes that message made it through. < 1720869072 251927 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's the nub of the intersection-of-CFLs-is-undecidable proof < 1720869103 176008 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :How it relates to ais523's idea, I'm less certain < 1720869191 652161 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I didn't intend to consult Wikipedia btw, it was just easier to cite than my original reference, which is a textbook < 1720869203 917235 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Oh do you make one language for even steps, and one for odd steps, add checks for initial and final strings s and t and then the grammar is ambiguous only iff s ->* t in the underlying Thue system? < 1720869223 886876 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :s/only // < 1720869241 251043 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or semi-thue system < 1720869275 177919 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe I should say SRS since that's the terminology I'm actually familiar with :P < 1720869348 2592 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: At the moment I'm basically taking ais523's statements and treating them as puzzles. My computability theory brain is a bit rusty. < 1720869373 162727 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Though nmaybe not as rusty as I thought. < 1720869397 340797 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.146.60 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1720869510 37110 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Things with undefined behaviour" and "things with oracles" are two different categories in my mind, so I find this pretty difficult to think about. < 1720869537 120674 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( things with undefined oracles ) < 1720869628 731508 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :AIUI the oracle was an implementation detail of the infinite-loops-are-undefined-behavior machine. < 1720869645 790302 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So not something you have to worry about to understand the setting. < 1720869741 488463 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not so sure about that (or I don't understand the setting). < 1720869785 330668 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Undefined behaviour" is something that occurs in a specification. What is the specification of this machine? < 1720869803 220321 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"If the program goes into a loop, the behaviour of the machine is undefined"? < 1720869820 270165 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Whenever the behavior on an input is an infinite loop (non-termination) the machine can substitute any other behavior it wants (including maintaining that infinite loop). < 1720869847 300055 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron < 1720869904 898774 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK. I think the question was whether this is "super-Turing behaviour"? I think my answer is the same, it's only super-Turing if it has an oracle that can divine halting, and in that case, it's not surprising < 1720869931 793976 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Otherwise, you have a machine that analyses its program, determines that it's an infinite loop, does whatever it likes if so < 1720869944 329500 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's not necessarily super-Turing because the machine can just maintain the ordinary Turing machine (or another model of computation) behavior. < 1720869970 267395 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But if you can't tell that it's doing that, it's not observably super-Turing < 1720869986 198812 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And if you can, it is. > 1720869989 337597 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:!aoQ):14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133022&oldid=133021 5* 03Gggfr 5* (+1) 10 < 1720869994 504974 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : ais523: Oh do you make one language for even steps, and one for odd steps, add checks for initial and final strings s and t and then the grammar is ambiguous only iff s ->* t in the underlying Thue system? ← right, and have a grammar that can act as either language < 1720870018 549956 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah < 1720870063 346005 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and (on the original topic) I was more interested in if this is sub-Turing due to no infinite loops, but maybe it isn't > 1720870142 232667 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Funciton14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133023&oldid=132494 5* 03Timwi 5* (-286) 10I wish to move away from including pseudocode representations of the function declarations and instead have the comments describe just what the functions do < 1720870199 30023 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe you could ask whether (total) recursive functions are less powerful than partial recursve ones... and the answer is, I think, no, because that would imply that would make recursively enumerable sets recursive. < 1720870290 679780 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(It's a different question.) > 1720870395 606508 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Funciton14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133024&oldid=133023 5* 03Timwi 5* (-18) 10Fix link to Hello world program in esoteric languages < 1720870424 209412 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Different, but also interesting. Is the set of Turing machines that do not have halt states, equivalent to the set of Turing machines that sometimes halt? I would say no. < 1720870585 549357 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well you can always tweak the acceptance condition in your model of computation. < 1720870623 525016 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :You need /some/ discernable observation of course. < 1720870715 107386 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it depends on the definition of "equivalent" < 1720870743 188373 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is under the "tight loop = halt" model that is sometimes used < 1720870770 225917 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(where a tight loop repeats the entire state of the interpreter exactly) > 1720870844 779705 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Funciton/Digital root calculator14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133025&oldid=108709 5* 03Timwi 5* (+132) 10I wish to move away from including pseudocode representations of the function declarations and instead have the comments describe just what the functions do < 1720870941 510652 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Along with "accept if it ever writes $" "accept if it ever moves to the left of the starting point" and many others. There's a vague connection to Rice' theorem here. < 1720871074 475556 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I like the "left of the start" rule because it's even somewhat justifiable < 1720871215 678782 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :You should be able to do silly things like "accept when all states have been entered an odd number of times". < 1720871269 394547 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(that one could be tedious, especially if you work with only two symbols) > 1720871322 542894 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:MihaiEso14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133026&oldid=131165 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+132) 10/* Some bonus stuff */ < 1720871796 471116 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Oh this is also related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computably_inseparable ...if you make a TM that accepts all provable theorems and rejects all disprovable theorems, and leave the other cases undefined but terminating, that will be super-TC. < 1720871831 242255 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(That concept also connects to Rice' theorem, of course.) < 1720872004 929496 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.148.137 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale < 1720872006 245493 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And now for something entirely different... do you think that YT's new "stable volume" feature (aka Dynamic Range Compression) increases the average length of auto-play chains that people subject themselves to? < 1720872078 800334 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(for me it's yet another thing to routinely disable when using YT) < 1720872251 22197 :mtm!~textual@c-71-228-84-213.hsd1.fl.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1720872273 939978 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1720872378 659016 :mtm!~textual@c-71-228-84-213.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User < 1720872390 921049 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 JOIN #esolangs * :weechat < 1720872411 32963 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I would imagine that was their goal in implementing it, yes < 1720872700 678858 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So the way I see Rice's theorem is, it's based on a defined condition, right? "Reaching a certain state that we call a halt state" is one such condition. Many models of computation define such a condition. But there are also models of computation that do not, by themselves, define any such condition. < 1720872886 494274 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If we think up a condition and impose it on such a model, is it the same model? I would say no, you've defined a new model by adding your condition. < 1720872888 899990 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's all. < 1720872948 247079 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1720872967 335333 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.148.137 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1720872972 426191 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1720872999 735602 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well the connection is loose. The thing about Rice is that it's extensional... you look at languages accepted by a machine rather than what it does internally. < 1720873056 509027 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, I'm not sure I agree < 1720873076 405410 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So to apply Rice directly you'll have to define languages that include a description of a Turing machine or other type of program. < 1720873077 697475 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :To even say "this machine accepts a language" you need to refer to defined conditions, like a halt state < 1720873095 413917 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But of course you *can* define such languages. < 1720873189 814243 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hah this literally says "extensional". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice's_theorem#Formal_statement < 1720873231 596491 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I'm more familiar with the index set formulation - which correspond to formal languages.) < 1720874498 933793 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1720874634 773596 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 JOIN #esolangs cpressey :weechat < 1720875126 604271 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1720875252 771792 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 JOIN #esolangs cpressey :weechat < 1720875589 201337 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523 "when it halts, print the number of execution steps it took […] then, you run the program – if it halts, you run it again with a step limit that's higher than the number it printed" => that works if the UB of the first program is sandboxed so it can't do anything worse than print the wrong result. David Madore had a few puzzles related to this recently, let me find them. In practice, that UB < 1720875595 209852 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :can do worse things, like loop infinitely, explode the reactor, give you cancer, or modify what the second run will do. < 1720875617 312332 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2023-12-24.2774.dragon-riddle.html is the puzzle < 1720875630 601883 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1720875734 168348 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sometimes it's useful to define something such that it doesn't give full UB, just, say, puts an arbitrary integer into the output register < 1720875812 68669 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but UB is necessary in practice simply because our computer architectures are such that if your code accesses memory through stray pointers it can usually run arbitrary code < 1720875824 466711 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so if you don't want full UB, you need memory safety < 1720875904 407655 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"many theorem provers agree that x/0 = 0" => yes, I think that's a practical way to define division in many cases, and I wish more libraries or languges defined it that way < 1720876043 479697 :myname!~myname@v2202404221793264578.bestsrv.de QUIT :Server closed connection < 1720876045 493242 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :push-down automata reading the same trace for verifying it => that's an interesting idea < 1720876059 178116 :myname!~myname@v2202404221793264578.bestsrv.de JOIN #esolangs myname :myname < 1720876234 224950 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1720876278 561760 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron < 1720876484 897850 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.144.180 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale < 1720876511 708472 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 JOIN #esolangs cpressey :weechat < 1720876540 734842 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1720876614 875468 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1720876785 595031 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1720876901 249903 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:9b40:237e:e600:89e7:6bc1:54f:170 JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie < 1720878487 880961 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1720878543 333191 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.144.180 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1720879661 497062 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Excess Flood < 1720879755 721852 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1720879765 70304 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: right, I mentioned that the UB has to be bounded somewhat < 1720879793 194837 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron < 1720879803 411022 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a concept of "bounded UB" is useful in many languages, I think – it doesn't really work in C where the consequence of UB can be "runs arbitrary code", which might do anything within the power of the computer it's running on < 1720879816 472893 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but lots of languages will be able to bound the UB to at least some extent < 1720880314 44441 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.144.180 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale < 1720880517 905065 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(reading int-e's link from earlier) huh, C11 also has a forward progress guarantee < 1720880528 112672 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although it's not quite the same as C++'s < 1720880606 935974 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh nice, spam email in czech. I don't get that often somehow. < 1720880803 278307 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've had quite a few foreign-language spam emails but I don't remember any in Czech specifically < 1720880862 769402 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Chinese/Japanese and Arabic seem to be the most common (although I can normally distinguish Chinese from Japanese given sufficient amounts of text and staring at it for a while, I don't generally go to that much effort with spam emails) < 1720881000 711791 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I cleared out my spam recently, and currently have 15 spam emails that got far in enough in the sending process to not be rejected before they were fully sent (although most were caught by a statistical spam filter that runs afterwards); 11 are in English, two in Arabic, one in Polish, and one in German (but that claims to have been sent from Chile) < 1720881025 329397 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.144.180 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1720881054 77697 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess maybe the Chinese/Japanese aren't that common, but I see them more often than most spam because they sort to the end in Unicode order < 1720881333 643925 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :English seems to be the most common for me < 1720881353 634102 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but maybe I just notice it more because it takes more time to recognize it's spam < 1720881411 396091 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :admittedly, I haven't tried translating most of the foreign-language emails in languages I don't know in order to ensure they're not spam < 1720881448 390229 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for some of the Hungarian ones it's even harder to tell if they're spam, but I get fewer of those. < 1720881450 979749 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know at least a small amount (and in some cases almost a medium amount) of most Western European languages, which is normally enough to verify that emails in those are spam < 1720881501 771753 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would expect English to be more common than Hungarian for spam, even sent to a Hungarian address, due to substantially more spammers knowing it and that outweighing the influence of language-based spam targeting < 1720881620 173914 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's a lot of Hungarian spam that are sent from shops or websites that I've actually interacted with, either "newsletters" or personalized reminders to recommend buying the products for which I've opened the description page < 1720881634 636371 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but those are not the ones where it's hard to tell it's spam < 1720881674 439592 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :where it can be hard to tell is email pretending to come from the few banks or telephone companies or similar < 1720881780 164315 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: IMO, spam from people you've interacted with should be categorized differently from randomly targeted spam (although I can see reasons to make both illegal, the arguments are likely different in the two cases) > 1720881933 648209 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07(,!)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133027&oldid=132389 5* 03Gggfr 5* (+312) 10 > 1720882081 794124 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07(,!)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133028&oldid=133027 5* 03Gggfr 5* (+49) 10 < 1720882244 923051 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.144.180 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale > 1720883145 918138 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07(,!)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133029&oldid=133028 5* 03Gggfr 5* (+52) 10 > 1720883312 161013 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:!aoQ):14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133030&oldid=133022 5* 03Ais523 5* (+831) 10r to [[User:Gggfr]] > 1720883706 81112 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10deleted "[[0210]]": Copyright violation: contains a substantial quote from a Chinese song that will not be public domain until 2045 (and I am annoyed that I had to try to figure this one out) > 1720883896 205082 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133031&oldid=132324 5* 03Ais523 5* (+374) 10/* Copyright violations */ new section < 1720883929 775021 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think you know this, but quick double-check: there's also a power *ceiling* on approaching TC via proofs about program properties. < 1720883965 112465 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I'm not fully clear on what you mean < 1720883968 395879 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The most potent version of this is from Conway, who gave FRACTRAN as constructive proof that Collatz-style and Goldbach-style problems are as hard as TC problems to humans. < 1720883978 167550 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah right, yes < 1720884019 977550 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, what Fractran, Tip, etc. prove is just that some generalized Collatz programs are hard – it doesn't necessarily prove that the original Collatz problem is one of them < 1720884022 124223 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can sit anybody down and convince them that the original Collatz is true. We have the numeric evidence. But we don't have *proof*, and so we could very well be hilariously horribly wrong because we were blinded by the hope for beautiful maths. < 1720884074 187427 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I remember a post on one of the mathematics stack exchanges where the author asked whether there were any numbers with a particular property, and if not, why not < 1720884112 900106 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. What's interesting is the nature of the evidence. For *any* given nat, I can show you that it can't possibly be part of a cycle using a templated proof search. So, does that template constitute a proof? Gödel said nope. < 1720884120 21186 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :where the property in question was satisfying two other properties simultaneously < 1720884175 504695 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and they said, effectively, "if you take random properties with the same density in the integers of a given size and check to see whether they're true simultaneously, the expected number of counterexamples is «some small number, IIRC less than 1» so it's possible that your conjecture is true for no reason" < 1720884177 537529 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and that really stuck with me# < 1720884238 852212 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hah, yeah. The nats are weird that way because they're *the* nats, and so facts about them don't really have a basis. < 1720884254 990869 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: do you know about omega-inconsistency? the idea is that a formal system might be able to simultaneously prove the statements "X is true for at least one integer", and, for each specific integer n, "X is false for n" < 1720884285 166160 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :All I really had wanted to point out was that if you had a way to transform TC problems so that we *could* decide Goldbach-style problems, then that would suggest that Goldbach was easy and we were holding it upside-down all along. < 1720884290 982476 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and yet, if the proofs aren't constructive, this might not necessarily be an inconsistency in the system because you haven't actually proved both a statement and its negation < 1720884313 757967 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which, from what we know of NP-completeness, is just not very likely. It's more likely that TC is a hard-edged ceiling with nothing dangling down from it. < 1720884348 968752 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :NP-completeness is weird because it applies to so many problems, *but* there are higher complexity classes < 1720884359 638566 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Yes! Exactly. That's the Gödelian machinery I was thinking of. Same situation. We have a proof of Collatz but no omega-proof. < 1720884363 126078 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Turing-completeness being the highest practically realisable computability class at least makes some sort of sense < 1720884440 38338 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :NPC and TC make a lot of sense as *categories* with poly- and computable reductions respectively as their arrows. From that perspective P=NP is ridiculous; the entirety of PH should manifest. < 1720884492 144961 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh no – I know a lot of category theory, I have used it at work –but I find it so hard to reason about in my head because there are so many different relevant levels of abstraction < 1720884505 821994 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:9b40:237e:e600:89e7:6bc1:54f:170 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1720884515 585888 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is very easy to get multiple levels of abstraction confused, and having something new to put on the arrows makes it so much harder < 1720884523 937528 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.205.65.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sokoban is PSPACE-complete < 1720884571 188640 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is a good intuition for this sort of puzzle/game – if it is possible to do a move, and later to do the inverse of the same move, and accomplish something in the process, it is probably PSPACE-complete; otherwise, it is probably NP-complete < 1720884598 838041 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in cases where it isn't, it normally isn't too hard to find a fast general solution < 1720884612 178635 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Whoa, that's a big statement. Sounds kind of like finding a group. < 1720884623 363668 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think there was one which turned out to be EXPSPACE-complete but that was a bit of an anomaly < 1720884632 780611 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.205.65.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl PRIVMSG #esolangs :On the other hand, integer factorisation might be easier than NP, we don't know < 1720884656 637720 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I remember when primality testing was discovered to be possible in polynomial time < 1720884666 465736 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Think of factorizing as in BQP, and think of BQP vs NP as the open question. < 1720884741 877561 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, interestingly we don't actually know the order of polynomial for certain even for some of the existing algorithms < 1720884751 999074 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: So, with all this out there, one thought I've had about both NPC and TC is: what if Rice's logic only applies to uniform encodings? < 1720884769 600534 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's along the lines of "best case O(n^6), worst case O(n^12), but we don't know whether any values actually hit the worst case" > 1720884793 728801 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133032&oldid=132559 5* 03Gggfr 5* (+617) 10/* Idea 3 */ < 1720884798 784395 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :My running example is Traveling Salesman in NPC. There's a really nice heuristic approach that runs fairly fast, and it's what actual logistics firms use around the world. < 1720884855 48398 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :On one hand, this heuristic fails as Salesman approaches the limiting cases of Hamiltonian cycles, and that's the standard way of showing it's NPC. On the other hand, some other problems might be well-optimized by the Salesman heuristic. < 1720884914 568417 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for Travelling Salesman, IIRC there's an algorithm that's guaranteed to be within 150% of optimal < 1720884924 139235 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe this applies to TC too. Like, sure, we can't prove Collatz in The Waterfall Model directly because the matrix will just grow without bound, but maybe we can prove it in some other TC language. < 1720884926 878313 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, well, I know the algorithm is correct but forget whether the 150% is the correct factor < 1720884937 296908 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.205.65.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is there a name for problems that can be solved in faster than linear time? < 1720884946 577280 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably just "sublinear"? < 1720884978 405572 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :such problems are rare because you don't actually get to read the entire input, you have to skip parts of it < 1720884984 875867 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.205.65.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl PRIVMSG #esolangs :What about "faster than any non-constant polynomial"? < 1720884990 515983 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Our current techniques for migrating within TC are all compiler-oriented. We add a bunch of interpretative overhead ("managed runtime") to the compiler outputs, and so we end up emulating the original Rice logic. < 1720885031 321331 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So we'd need some new way of transforming within TC which genuinely exposes the underlying objects of a computation. I have no idea how to think about this. < 1720885053 109598 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's not quite the same thing, but one of my favourite computer performance results is based on the hashing algorithm MD4 – it is faster to find a collision in MD4 than it is to actually calculate the hash of a given string < 1720885092 25364 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is not surprising that some hashing algorithms are broken, but it is surprising that some hashing algorithms that were used seriously are *that* broken < 1720885100 466212 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :FreeFull: Like ais523 says, we usually care about log space, rather than log time. That class is often called L in literature. < 1720885145 901484 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, we haven't even proven that one-way functions exist. We're still guessing what a hash looks like. < 1720885182 172083 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.205.65.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right, proving that one-way functions exist would be a huge result < 1720885202 637562 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that mostly doesn't matter – what's practically relevant is not whether the inverse function exists but whether anyone find sit < 1720885209 507302 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* finds it < 1720885257 852837 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:9b40:237e:e600:89e7:6bc1:54f:170 JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie < 1720885308 397440 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.205.65.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you prove it doesn't exist, then you don't have to worry about people finding it, assuming you can actually construct the one-way function < 1720885372 515426 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, the problem there is that most practically defined hashing algorithms produce finite-length output < 1720885408 376515 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so we *know* that the inverse function exists (assuming that "no inverse" is a possible output), if only as an arbitrary list of cases that would take impossibly long to find < 1720885621 367166 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I assume the "one-way functions exist" conjecture has some way to define them precisely in a way that avoids the attack, perhaps by using an infinite domain and codomain < 1720885699 985302 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais"I remember when primality testing was discovered to be possible in polynomial time" => I remember I heard of this when it was still kind of a new result, you know, with the internet not spreading every news instantly, and math papers not becoming obsolete in half a year like biology papers do, so it still counted as new a few years later. but the result was from 2002, so I don't think I ever knew < 1720885705 996210 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this as an open question, wuth deterministic composite testing and proven good random prime testing available. < 1720885793 220644 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :kind of like the strong perfect graph theorem < 1720885896 549718 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"faster than any non-constant polynomial" => you mean like sorting variable-length strings? < 1720885900 779347 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: The modern definition is in terms of the smallest circuit that computes the inverse. < 1720885932 135220 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or, non-uniformly, the family of circuits, one for each size of input and output. < 1720885984 867815 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:9b40:237e:e600:89e7:6bc1:54f:170 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1720886005 829884 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: ah, I see – the inverse is allowed to exist, it just has to be "much" more complicated < 1720886031 69313 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"it is faster to find a collision in MD4 than it is to actually calculate the hash of a given string" => oh, is that why https://valerieaurora.org/hash.html has a "Collisions generated by hand / Expert reaction: Memorize as fun party trick for next faculty mixer" as a status for cryptgraphgic hash functions? < 1720886084 254961 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.144.180 QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1720886098 775011 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: possibly? < 1720886104 257550 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Right. It also doesn't say too much about interactive approaches, like the family of WEP-cracking algorithms. < 1720886130 77555 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: randomized I hope < 1720886294 131153 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Yeah, although at this level of detail, we start to need definitions of randomness. IIRC the current definition of one-way uses pseudorandomness in terms of Kolmogorov complexity? < 1720886594 155333 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I strongly suspect that calculating Kolmogorov complexity precisely is uncomputable < 1720886604 777334 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although it is trivial to get an upper and lower bound) < 1720886618 158724 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess that probably doesn't matter for the conjecture, though < 1720886672 819347 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, it's interesting that I can't trivially *prove* it's uncomputable < 1720886690 877834 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:9b40:237e:e600:7eb5:5482:f421:a7de JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie < 1720886714 584152 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are lots of programs for which we can't compute/prove whether they produce a specific output or not – but are there any such programs for which there isn't a shorter program that also produces that output? < 1720886755 805917 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.205.65.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl PRIVMSG #esolangs :To prove that a shorter program doesn't produce the same output, you have to prove that it halts < 1720886759 247072 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :intuitively, it feels like "do something of unprovable halting status + produce this output" should lead to a longer program than just printing the output < 1720886793 399963 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :FreeFull: no, the conjecture is "program X halts and produces Y, and no shorter program halts and produces Y" – you can disprove that by finding a shorter program that halts and produces Y even if you can't prove that X halts < 1720886839 962659 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.205.65.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not talking about X but about the shorter program < 1720886858 446048 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah right, there might be a shorter program that we also can't prove whether that one halts < 1720886865 788341 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but then the same argument can be applied recursively < 1720886888 776008 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, suppose there's an odd perfect number – a program that brute-forces the smallest odd perfect number probably is the shortest way to represent it < 1720886915 783411 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because we know that any odd perfect numbers must be incredibly large, and it'd be very surprising if there were a shorter way to encode it < 1720886931 554562 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.205.65.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl PRIVMSG #esolangs :The busy beaver numbers are related < 1720887033 642184 :sprout!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-b42c-a95b-6a4b-b4d1.fixed6.kpn.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1720887050 229218 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah right, because for busy beaver candidates there might be some that do in fact halt, and the numbers those programs output are going to be extremely large and those programs are going to be the shortest way to encode them, but also hard to prove they halt < 1720887136 109439 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh wow! the busy beaver number for 2-color 5-state Turing machines has been discovered (on July 2, so very recently) < 1720887142 76629 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is 47,176,870 < 1720887158 852597 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://discuss.bbchallenge.org/t/july-2nd-2024-we-have-proved-bb-5-47-176-870/237 (requires JavaScript) < 1720887362 639075 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"we know that any odd perfect numbers must be incredibly large" => wait, do we know that? how large? < 1720887409 267989 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8088 ...hmm somehow it didn't register with me how recent that was when I saw it < 1720887431 930177 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, I did mention that in the channel when I saw it at https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8088 < 1720887450 381239 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm considering to use it as the next month's password < 1720887461 45651 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Wikipedia mentions N > 10^1500 as a lower bound. < 1720887486 571632 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :which may or may not be "incredibly large" by your standards :) < 1720887544 769977 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, that's large but not really incredibly large < 1720887557 56464 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I agree – I misremembered < 1720887561 143469 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is not up to googology levels < 1720887571 172682 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so just "large" < 1720887579 830017 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, googol is 10^100. < 1720887581 974729 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought the known bound was larger, but apparently not < 1720887585 647001 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's not googol-plexy < 1720887624 970192 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that bound is from 2012, people may have pushed it further < 1720887690 262679 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:9b40:237e:e600:7eb5:5482:f421:a7de PRIVMSG #esolangs :Nockiro, versuch mal ssh bei 2a03:9b40:237e:e600:82d:451e:f104:833e < 1720887705 891452 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.144.180 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale < 1720887717 275853 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:9b40:237e:e600:7eb5:5482:f421:a7de PRIVMSG #esolangs :whoops wrong channel, sorry 😬 < 1720887718 194239 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Thelie: wrong channel? there isn't a Nockiro in this channel < 1720887732 857592 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :compare this to the next Fermat prime, which must be at least 2**(2**33) < 1720887736 524791 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and now that IP is permanently logged, yay < 1720887762 574689 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also I love the use of "bei" with an IP address – it makes sense now that I've seen it but it was a little surprising < 1720887777 351804 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :still not googology large, but at least significantly larger < 1720887783 697930 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: isn't that cheating, because it's fairly early in the *sequence* of Fermat primes < 1720887784 246928 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:9b40:237e:e600:7eb5:5482:f421:a7de PRIVMSG #esolangs :Eh not that bad it's a public server anyways < 1720887789 592052 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, well, Fermat numbers < 1720887793 246761 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:9b40:237e:e600:7eb5:5482:f421:a7de PRIVMSG #esolangs :but still a bit of a fuckup < 1720887809 247461 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:9b40:237e:e600:7eb5:5482:f421:a7de PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyways, sorry for the interruption! < 1720887810 890367 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :eh it's amusing to us :) < 1720887814 805848 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, but that's kind of the point, if there's a next Fermat prime, I expect it to have the form 2**(2**k) where k is small, so the smallest program generating it will likely just hard-code k < 1720887820 699110 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(pretty sure it's not just me) < 1720887832 547942 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, not certain, because a slow trial division algorithm might be faster < 1720887835 907608 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :um < 1720887836 724896 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :smaller < 1720887846 910908 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but still, the one that hard-codes k might be competitive < 1720887874 722797 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :whereas the odd perfect numbers don't have such a restricted form, so you might have to search for some random ass-pull combination to find it for all we know < 1720887886 450003 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I guess the problem there is that the 2**(2**…) bit is likely to be hardcoded in both the search program and the hardcode-the-value program < 1720887886 832451 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but then maybe it does have a nice special form, we just can't prove that < 1720887897 43691 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the real question is whether the k is smaller than the search algorithm < 1720887920 574214 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah < 1720887925 518851 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well < 1720887936 207015 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :not really, if you write the general search program then hard-coding 2**k+1 is enough < 1720887945 301541 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm no wait < 1720887952 743825 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess there's also the separate problem of "if we are given an odd perfect number / a large Fermat prime and tasked with discovering the shortest program to find it, we would probably notice that it has the required unusual form" < 1720887979 944082 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, determining whether a program that finds the smallest N ever halts is much easier if you have an example of an N < 1720887988 409036 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah < 1720888021 300120 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the project that pushed this bound is defunct https://web.archive.org/web/20181106015226/http://oddperfect.org/ ... they got from 10^300 to 10^1500 which feels substantial to me. < 1720888165 961587 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the reason why the existence of odd perfect numbers is such a famous open question is mostly because of how old it is. the others postdate year 1600, but this one is from before year 1 < 1720888234 443435 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it must be one of the oldest open problems in mathematics < 1720888293 881001 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's old, and it's elementary (you can explain the problem in full to a highschool student.) < 1720888345 581245 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Plus there's some nice theory for the even number case... so there's something you can teach along with it :) < 1720888348 713638 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it's particularly infuriating because the even perfect numbers are so easy to characterize < 1720888360 29412 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah. we have lots of elementary open problems, but not many that are so old. < 1720888453 952661 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, we don't even know that there are infinitely many even perfect numbers, right? < 1720888485 894708 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, apparently we don't < 1720888593 523121 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well it's tied to Mersenne primes. < 1720888699 961304 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :apparently there are 51 Mersenne primes known at the moment < 1720888715 557308 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, each even perfect number as a corresponding Mersenne prime and vice versa < 1720888718 584835 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* has a < 1720888787 306707 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Oh! Okay, I thought you'd heard this news already. Sorry! Let me start again. Determining BB(6) will require solving a Collatz-style problem and BB(7) a Goldbach variant that the community calls "Bigfoot". < 1720888805 57499 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://wiki.bbchallenge.org/wiki/Cryptids is the full list. The BB(6) machine is "Antihydra". I've had a go at it and it is much tougher than it looks. < 1720888809 802615 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: it's recent and I don't check busy-beaver-related news that often < 1720888822 869500 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I already opened the Cryptids page in a browser, but have not read it yet < 1720888867 57435 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So yes, your intuition is spot-on, *and* it turns out that we just reached the last stair-step before the ceiling. < 1720888909 650299 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, maybe it isn't actually that old < 1720888958 531536 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the definition of perfect numbers is that old, but I don't think they asked whether there were odd perfect numbers until like some time between 1400 and 1800 < 1720888987 487013 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry then < 1720889183 619105 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1720889195 345559 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, Bigfoot reminds me a lot of the sort of things Conedy can calculate < 1720889243 238387 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it isn't a Collatz function in the traditional sense because b clearly and obviously grows forever – it just causes a to change along the way, and the question is whether that ever gets down to 0 < 1720889326 134147 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh dang, they have a page for Conway's approach: https://wiki.bbchallenge.org/wiki/Probviously < 1720889351 701514 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which I guess we might call "omega-obviously" from earlier. < 1720889416 471078 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, Bigfoot's weird. One approach from Collatz which helps a little is to consider *when* Bigfoot could have a lot of decreasing alpha. < 1720889470 266968 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :We can see that -- probviously -- any Bigfoot position which tends towards zero is going to be wound up like a capacitor. < 1720889491 330418 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.144.180 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1720889494 290620 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And trivially, such capacitors are always finite by construction. If only it were that easy~ < 1720889726 383852 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one thing that interests me in the cryptids is that the small ones also seem easy to implement on counter machines < 1720889800 971881 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can directly implement Hydra in The Waterfall Model on seven clocks, I think (not completely sure as I haven't tried to do it yet), and it wouldn't surprise me if fewer are possible < 1720889816 743860 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(that said, seven clocks is sufficient to implement a TC language, so…) < 1720889860 960797 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wait, Waterfall's not TC with fewer than seven? This is new to me. < 1720889883 949441 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it might be < 1720889893 386564 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :just, it gets hard to write UTMs in very few clocks < 1720889912 991229 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, it's still open. Okay. Sorry, I was ready to be excited for progress on mortal-matrix. Matrices are really hard. < 1720889951 544019 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :seven is the smallest number that's probably been proven ("probably" in that a proof exists but hasn't yet been thoroughly checked for mistakes) < 1720890007 397549 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :any Spiral Rise program compiles both into a 7-clock Waterfall Model program (thus a 7-fraction FRACTRAN program), and a 5-symbol tag system < 1720890031 464750 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(which in turn implies that there's a 5-symbol universal tag system, although the production rules with that construction are exceedingly long) < 1720890159 819391 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, hmm, did I get the Waterfall→FRACTRAN compilation upside-down? < 1720890164 808458 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :will have to think more about this < 1720890168 733522 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for the tag system, do you get to choose some large variable starting state besides the 5 symbols? < 1720890186 786552 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, just put the steady decrement at the start :-) < 1720890198 800879 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yes < 1720890225 375557 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wish I had a proper database for these sorts of facts. Like, I want a database that stores a poset and labels the ways that we can reduce one language to another. Maybe a graph DB? < 1720890227 953573 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :with the universality coming from an "any program maps to some starting state" (with the map being calculable primitive-recursively in order to prevent cheating with a complex map) < 1720890230 773300 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1720890267 525916 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: there's https://esolangs.org/wiki/EsoInterpreters but it isn't very well updated < 1720890349 643352 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Yeah. There's also a couple one-off diagrams drawn for Complexity Zoo and nLab by that one guy. They're fine, but they're also bespoke DOT. < 1720890392 28564 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have a really long-standing goal that I haven't had much time to work on, of choosing a "central" esolang and writing interpreters between it and lots of other interesting esolangs both ways < 1720890411 43348 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :to make it possible to generate an interpreter for any of them in any other, or a compiler from any of them to any other < 1720890413 992026 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've made two attempts at this, klesi and zaha, and neither is good. zaha can represent functors between posets, but can't label arrows. < 1720890454 631815 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean, there's always BLC, but I think that instead of centrality, we should have a central esolang-building system. Like a Nix flake or something else, like a Nix flake. < 1720890458 487992 :errilaz_!~errilaz@static.157.80.99.88.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Server closed connection < 1720890464 938970 :errilaz!~errilaz@static.157.80.99.88.clients.your-server.de JOIN #esolangs * :errilaz < 1720890465 383749 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my plan for a long time was to use an Underload variant, although more recently I decided that I'd prefer a bespoke language and came up with https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esimpl < 1720890488 26022 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That'd make it easier to study stuff like Busy Beaver or your earlier semi-halting stuff. > 1720890493 732473 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rizzlang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133033&oldid=133018 5* 03ZachChecksOutEsolangs 5* (-318) 10 < 1720890507 788494 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although Esimpl is primarily designed to allow efficient implementations of other languages whilst being very easy to interpret and compile > 1720890517 710365 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rizzlang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133034&oldid=133033 5* 03ZachChecksOutEsolangs 5* (-1) 10 < 1720890577 775392 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, nifty, TIL. < 1720890675 696869 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wrote a BF interpreter in Esimpl already < 1720890686 257592 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(it's in the same tarball as the interpreter linked from the article) < 1720890734 192663 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although I haven't written Esimpl impls in any esolangs yet (including itself) < 1720890909 765430 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one of the big early goals would be a self-interpreter, because that makes it possible to use compilers as interpreters (by compiling into Esimpl and then self-interpreting it) – after that point it would be possible to work entirely with compilers < 1720890927 690086 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(which would make the BF interpreter redundant, but it was mostly there as a test of the language anyway rather than something to practically use) < 1720890935 242160 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, like a Futamura specializer? < 1720891115 388341 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1720891437 367031 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think a minimal set of inputs required to be able to write a compiler from esolang A to esolang B in esolang C for any A, B, C is to have compilers to and from each esolang we care about to a common esolang, and one self-interpreter for that common esolang < 1720891477 226659 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :where the compilers themselves are written in the common esolang < 1720891484 673690 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, I guess they don't all have to be – just enough to bootstrap < 1720891563 412488 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Aha. And that's the other part: they have to have a uniform sense of I/O, then. < 1720891618 411527 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, a Waterfall Model program is a matrix of nats, right? But Brainfuck can't emit that directly. So there's also gotta be some sense of common encoding. < 1720891676 139294 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1720891690 286812 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, or at least a decided convention for each language to represent a common encoding (but the way in which each language interprets the encoding doesn't have to match the other languages) < 1720891714 180371 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in practice almost all esolangs have a defined way to represent programs as a sequence of bytes < 1720891764 963216 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are a few that intentionally leave the details open or consider them to be irrelevant, and have ended up with more than one commonly used encoding (e.g. FRACTRAN), but there are various solutions to that (e.g. by considering different encodings to be different variants of the language) < 1720891821 355218 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron < 1720891937 926932 :sprout!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-bd3d-b7cf-ad17-1736.fixed6.kpn.net JOIN #esolangs sprout :sprout < 1720892275 897794 :sprout!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-bd3d-b7cf-ad17-1736.fixed6.kpn.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1720892384 431987 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That works. What do we do for binary lambda calculi or other bitwise encodings? I figure we just define another convention for padding. < 1720892398 468492 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1720892619 10209 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, or even just use a series of '0' and '1' characters < 1720893144 628921 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION quietly chuckling to death
< 1720893167 882465 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, I guess. Whatever works. < 1720893202 926127 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was amused the first time I saw that, too (this is not the first time the problem has come up…) > 1720893284 361788 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Xff14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133035 5* 03Xff 5* (+36) 10Created page with "this is a alt for [[User:Yayimhere]]" > 1720893307 215810 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133036&oldid=133032 5* 03Xff 5* (+17) 10 < 1720893341 707350 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the "convention for padding" could be as simple as a single 1 bit followed by any number of 0 bits at the end, once you define bit order of course < 1720893409 621926 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, I'm gonna stick to what I originally wanted to do, which is to contextualize the various BB results by automatically computing them and putting them up on a ruler. < 1720893443 26029 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Compiling all the esolangs into each other can wait for another day. It's a fun thought, but sounds like a lot of work involving a lot of uninterested stakeholders. < 1720893631 548867 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, I think that's why it hasn't happened yet < 1720893667 74037 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :few people are interested, and most (probably all) of them have enough higher-priority things to do that they can't spent much time on it < 1720893676 286998 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* spend much time on it < 1720893751 560010 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: sometimes a better padding convention can be created, depending on the language, e.g. binary lambda calculus is self-delimiting, and 7 pads with trailing 1 bits (because a 111 at the end of the program is a no-op and 11 and 1 are incomplete commands that can be ignored at the end of the program) > 1720893884 858586 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Titled14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133037&oldid=122556 5* 03EvyLah 5* (+6) 10minor changes > 1720893952 126585 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck+214]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133038&oldid=126003 5* 03EvyLah 5* (+48) 10you should see these too > 1720893965 708209 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fun 2 code14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133039 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+508) 10Created page with "Fun 2 code is a modification of [[Python]] where its like Fun 2 rhyme, a trendy song by Howard Moody. == How it works == First, you think up a swear word the first letter of the python command. Then, you write down 3 words that rhyme with it, seperated by new lin > 1720894064 110708 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Code your own instructions, lazyass14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133040&oldid=124226 5* 03EvyLah 5* (-428) 10/* Categories */ why is this here? < 1720894121 171539 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1720894123 455730 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. I guess we should call that Tromp BLC? And then there's e.g. Iota and Jot, which both need padding. < 1720894141 473043 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron > 1720894227 644938 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133041&oldid=133036 5* 03Xff 5* (+548) 10 > 1720894249 757891 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Anything14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133042&oldid=123134 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+25) 10 > 1720894276 705650 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Burgercamp+/burgercamp+-14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133043&oldid=130681 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+23) 10 > 1720894305 764172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wikipedia is stupid and dumb14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133044&oldid=130086 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+23) 10 > 1720894579 410476 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133045&oldid=133041 5* 03Xff 5* (+218) 10/* hexadecimal triangle */ > 1720894579 801865 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/ESOLANG TOURNAMENT!!!14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133046 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+341) 10Created page with "PARTICIPANTS!!!: [[brainfuck]] - 01 [[befunge]] - 02 [[slashes]] - 03 [[thue]] - 04 [[2 Bits, 1 Byte]] - 05 [[3 Bits, 3 Bytes]] - 06 [[5 Bits, 20 Bytes]] - 07 [[0 Bits, 0 Bytes]] - 08 [[malbolge]] - 09 [[FIFTH]] - 10 [[HQ9+ > 1720894634 551293 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/ESOLANG TOURNAMENT!!!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133047&oldid=133046 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (-2) 10 > 1720894812 419242 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Vague14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133048&oldid=90571 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+9) 10more info please < 1720895039 132747 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1720895057 539612 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes < 1720895083 908771 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for brainfuck you can just pad with > at the start or end < 1720895124 902950 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord > 1720895125 29400 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133049&oldid=133045 5* 03Xff 5* (+350) 10/* CPU computer idea thing */ > 1720895205 123682 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133050&oldid=133049 5* 03Xff 5* (+92) 10 > 1720895356 488532 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133051&oldid=133050 5* 03Xff 5* (+127) 10/* CPU computer idea thing */ < 1720895450 464107 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I hate that those are equivalent < 1720895454 464855 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they conceptually feel so different > 1720895540 882057 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133052&oldid=133051 5* 03Xff 5* (+66) 10/* CPU computer idea thing */ < 1720895547 913462 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname > 1720895618 542648 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133053&oldid=133052 5* 03Xff 5* (+41) 10 < 1720895728 778139 :anomalous!~anomalous@46.233.59.218 JOIN #esolangs * :Unknown < 1720896208 898460 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.144.180 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale < 1720896432 907599 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 JOIN #esolangs cpressey :weechat < 1720897018 853028 :sprout!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-bd3d-b7cf-ad17-1736.fixed6.kpn.net JOIN #esolangs sprout :sprout < 1720897345 329284 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.144.180 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1720897434 870561 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1720897624 304797 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Random stat: looking at last full week, out of the 3670822 HTTP requests to the wiki server, 1432542 (39.0%) were by Claudebot, 554884 (15.1%) by Bytespider, 151555 (4.1%) by Amazonbot, 85642 (2.3%) by GPTBot and 49429 (1.3%) by FriendlyCrawler; together those 5 AI trainers made up 2274052 (61.9%) requests. < 1720897641 61754 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Didn't count the 59635 (1.6%) and 25233 (0.7%) requests from Bingbot and Googlebot, respectively, since it's harder to split out AI and "traditional" crawling from those. < 1720897686 438501 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Trying to ingest nginx logs into Loki, for graphing, to figure out that once-every-two-hours traffic spike, but got distracted.) < 1720898064 267517 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's also an interesting user agent of "NotLoggedIn/MediaWiki::Butt", which is apparently a Ruby framework for MediaWiki API access, which -- once per day, exactly at UTC midnight -- does ~190 requests to /w/api.php from a random Yandex Cloud IP. < 1720898575 861214 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1720898686 716817 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have a suspicion that training from the Esolang wiki may end up decreasing the quality of AIs rather than increasing it :-D < 1720899017 239475 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Actually, out of the 2269646 AI training requests with easily classifiable URLs (I didn't used to record the vhost), 2161186 (95.2%) were from hack.esolangs.org/repo aka the HackEso repository; 98237 (4.3%) were from the wiki, and the remaining 10223 (0.5%) from this channel's logs. < 1720899032 741027 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Not that training on the HackEso repository is going to help any more than training on the wiki would. < 1720899300 195474 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 JOIN #esolangs cpressey :weechat < 1720899758 484470 :V!~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V QUIT :Server closed connection < 1720899777 936382 :V!~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V JOIN #esolangs V :Wie? < 1720900126 146455 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds > 1720900413 697237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133054&oldid=132682 5* 03Ais523 5* (+298) 10/* Tacit programming */ concatenative? < 1720901734 778503 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 JOIN #esolangs cpressey :weechat > 1720902310 712802 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck+214]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133055&oldid=133038 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-1) 10/* External Resources */ Remove s < 1720902468 764839 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1720902531 74261 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in < 1720902538 389480 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User > 1720902663 333865 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Eod14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133056&oldid=116048 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+67) 10Lowercase, grammar, categories > 1720902770 782878 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FakeScript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133057&oldid=108076 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+63) 10Categories < 1720902773 325134 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron > 1720902804 801017 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FakeScript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133058&oldid=133057 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+30) 10See also > 1720902840 461546 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07XGCC14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133059&oldid=132996 5* 03Zzo38 5* (+1864) 10 > 1720902916 279563 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Extension14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133060&oldid=119875 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+27) 10Category < 1720902953 830045 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 JOIN #esolangs * :weechat < 1720903181 859632 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:9b40:237e:e600:7eb5:5482:f421:a7de QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1720903790 817936 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1720903946 838489 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:9b40:237e:e600:89e7:6bc1:54f:170 JOIN #esolangs * :Thelie < 1720904307 937140 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@83.223.232.113 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale < 1720904335 455927 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in < 1720904383 890490 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron < 1720905060 774853 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:9b40:237e:e600:89e7:6bc1:54f:170 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1720905077 941940 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 JOIN #esolangs cpressey :weechat < 1720905119 758838 :anomalous!~anomalous@46.233.59.218 QUIT :Quit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKfS5zVfGBc < 1720905794 363044 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1720905923 918856 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1720906250 31723 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@83.223.232.113 QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1720906309 863050 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1720907706 303209 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1720908099 853476 :DHeadshot!~DHeadshot@cpc82623-woki8-2-0-cust106.6-2.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs DHeadshot :Deadly Headshot < 1720908201 374980 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Now that's just real bizarre... got one of those hack.esolangs.org traffic spikes again, but it didn't get attributed to any known bot. So went to check the logs by manual inspection, and the user agents are like just a collection of "normal" browser except they're 100% lowercase, unlike what actual browsers do. < 1720908580 59005 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :And the traffic is from 175 different addresses, belonging to random hosting companies (EGIHosting, Neptune-Networks-LLC, SpdNet, Bite Lietuva, 20 Point Networks, Intelligence Network Online), and the pages are just random /repo/file, /repo/comparison, /repo/shortlog, /repo/annotate paths. < 1720908768 978987 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Doesn't really feel like a DOS attempt because it's still pretty modest traffic (~10 qps). I guess it could be an AI scraper that just doesn't want to advertise what they're doing. But pretty weird. < 1720908941 356625 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Besides if they _really_ didn't want to look obvious, presumably they wouldn't do that all-lowercase weirdness. < 1720909130 618217 :DHeadshot!~DHeadshot@cpc82623-woki8-2-0-cust106.6-2.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1720912745 913060 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@83.223.232.113 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale > 1720914495 779636 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07XGCC14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133061&oldid=133059 5* 03Zzo38 5* (+749) 10 < 1720914695 47779 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@83.223.232.113 QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1720914993 914397 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@83.223.232.113 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale