< 1720915383 194017 :mtm!~textual@c-71-228-84-213.hsd1.fl.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1720915544 937146 :mtm!~textual@c-71-228-84-213.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User < 1720916385 367714 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@83.223.232.113 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds > 1720917899 574912 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133062&oldid=133031 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+267) 10 < 1720918606 898088 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.147.41 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale > 1720918972 155042 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sakana14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133063&oldid=132975 5* 03TheCanon2 5* (+484) 10Added a Parity calculator > 1720919153 293543 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sakana14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133064&oldid=133063 5* 03TheCanon2 5* (+39) 10Added detail < 1720919218 554115 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs * :lisbeths > 1720920518 621293 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ALWCIDFEC14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133065&oldid=128968 5* 03Timothytomato 5* (+7) 10link to disambugation page is no good < 1720921232 103871 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds > 1720921353 106135 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:ALWCIDFEC14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133066&oldid=105970 5* 03Timothytomato 5* (+300) 10is it really turing complete bro? > 1720921369 940928 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ALWCIDFEC14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133067&oldid=133065 5* 03Timothytomato 5* (-29) 10 < 1720921805 377048 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 JOIN #esolangs salpynx :realname < 1720922286 76572 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :recent comment on ALWCIDFEC‎‎ about TCness got me thinking about 3 cell bf. I think that's been conclusively proven TC, but maybe that proof is not obviously linked? < 1720922303 158512 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Just looking at the specs, it seems like it's almost trivially TC when compared to 3 register Portable Minsky Machine Notation, which can directly implement a 2 reg Minsky machine. < 1720922314 321628 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :A while back I wanted to prove the 2 register PMMN _wasn't_ TC, but came up with a sketch proof that is was, and then stalled because that didn't seem very interesting.... but wouldn't that be equivalent to proving 2 cell bf Turing complete, which _is_ interesting? < 1720922421 111000 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :... what is the current state of knowledge about 2 cell bf TCness? < 1720922703 916267 :op_4!~tslil@2a01:4f8:c0c:7952::1 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1720922733 877782 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 JOIN #esolangs op_4 :op_4 < 1720923055 696321 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the complicated bit was that with only two registers and while loops you wouldn't neccesarily be able to exit all loops, but there seems to be a way to rearrange things so that you keep going deeoer into loops, and can just hang there once all computation is complete, with that kind of halt-on-tight-loop convention mentioned here recently < 1720923709 394916 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :clarification: you can't necessarily exit the current loop without losing current data, but you can still enter loops, so different halt conditions can be distinguished by different tight inner loops > 1720924018 947179 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07List of ideas14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133068&oldid=132883 5* 03Timothytomato 5* (+62) 10BCT is basically godel numbering < 1720924315 902455 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca JOIN #esolangs zzo38 :zzo38 < 1720926173 518298 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I proved that the stationary distribution of Hydra and Antihydra is not just 50/50 even/odd, but evenly distributed mod 4, mod 8, etc. This makes it even more probvious to me that they don't halt. < 1720927592 476775 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1720931093 936103 :andyatalligin!sid586669@id-586669.tinside.irccloud.com QUIT :Server closed connection < 1720931102 813111 :andyatalligin!sid586669@2a03:5180:f::8:f3ad JOIN #esolangs * :Andy Turner < 1720933232 937943 :yuu!sid267332@id-267332.ilkley.irccloud.com QUIT :Server closed connection < 1720933241 227583 :yuu!sid267332@id-267332.ilkley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs * :yuu < 1720933701 91317 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1720934059 390758 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org JOIN #esolangs hooloovoo :ZNC - https://znc.in < 1720936480 963182 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1720937981 442429 :Argorok!sid195487@id-195487.hampstead.irccloud.com QUIT :Server closed connection < 1720937992 930570 :Argorok!sid195487@id-195487.hampstead.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs Argorok :Argorok < 1720938639 751715 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1720938819 986450 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1720939376 432969 :Lymia!~lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe QUIT :Server closed connection > 1720939388 685498 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fun 2 code14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133069&oldid=133039 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+159) 10Categories < 1720939388 901695 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe JOIN #esolangs Lymia :Lymia Aluysia < 1720939554 835106 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown < 1720941570 845131 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1720944783 80255 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1720945235 378497 :dnm!sid401311@id-401311.lymington.irccloud.com QUIT :Server closed connection < 1720945247 353119 :dnm!sid401311@id-401311.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs dnm :dnm < 1720946059 843178 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 JOIN #esolangs cpressey :weechat < 1720946694 368142 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1720946717 547124 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 JOIN #esolangs salpynx :realname < 1720946816 439593 :mich181189!sid268336@londonhackspace/mich181189 QUIT :Server closed connection < 1720946827 889859 :mich181189!sid268336@londonhackspace/mich181189 JOIN #esolangs mich181189 :Michael < 1720949714 352460 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl PRIVMSG #esolangs :BF can be made prefix-free by adding an unmatched ] to end the program < 1720950683 817582 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1720950908 379158 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl QUIT :Server closed connection < 1720950919 925812 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl JOIN #esolangs Wryl :Wryl < 1720952052 203607 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Excess Flood < 1720952130 973835 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron < 1720952452 828837 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1720952819 346611 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron < 1720952945 873267 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1720952979 195850 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 JOIN #esolangs cpressey :weechat < 1720955542 509071 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1720956267 331976 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.147.41 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1720957468 490002 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1720957831 680329 :jjrubes!~JJRubes@1.147.58.99 JOIN #esolangs * :realname < 1720958120 435553 :jjrubes!~JJRubes@1.147.58.99 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh hey, i'm looking for an admin for esolangs.org < 1720958648 937835 :mtm!~textual@c-71-228-84-213.hsd1.fl.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1720958805 964840 :mtm!~textual@c-71-228-84-213.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User < 1720959743 306710 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is it about the wiki or something else? < 1720959862 786124 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I'm not an admin, but I'm trying to figure out whom to possibly ping :) ) < 1720959889 764176 :jjrubes!~JJRubes@1.147.58.99 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's about getting something removed from a wiki page and its history < 1720959928 420174 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay ais523 helps the most with that. And has a tendency to pop in here if his name is mentioned, so maybe that works this time too. < 1720960208 381184 :pikhq!sid394595@user/meow/pikhq QUIT :Server closed connection < 1720960209 725639 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :tromp: yes, that works too < 1720960220 126695 :pikhq!sid394595@user/meow/pikhq JOIN #esolangs pikhq :Ada Worcester < 1720960261 512608 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl PRIVMSG #esolangs :what else makes it prefix free? < 1720960307 511673 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl PRIVMSG #esolangs :i think only ] can serve as endmarker < 1720960350 164083 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can add a dedicated end symbol... which is of course more expensive if you count bits < 1720960497 974898 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :That extra ] is the simplest choice. < 1720960589 369819 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I've written at least one BF interpreter that used that trick for terminating the program; it had a recursive function that executed everything from right after a [ to the matching ] once. < 1720960644 955949 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(It's that, or I saw it in somebody else's interpreter. Quite possibly both.) < 1720960715 887522 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But for making things prefix-free there's always the generic encoded length + string apprach with its many different encodings of natural numbers. < 1720961164 926057 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.160.28 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale < 1720962947 333491 :jjrubes!~JJRubes@1.147.58.99 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1720964048 142688 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1720964296 193816 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1720964519 69662 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1720964739 910438 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron < 1720964858 379851 :MizMahem!sid296354@user/mizmahem QUIT :Server closed connection < 1720964869 982166 :MizMahem!sid296354@user/mizmahem JOIN #esolangs MizMahem :🐍🐔 < 1720965481 337975 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.160.28 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1720965640 917433 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org JOIN #esolangs leah2 :Leah Neukirchen < 1720966573 149155 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1720967011 879578 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1720968247 956334 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org JOIN #esolangs leah2 :Leah Neukirchen < 1720969507 826219 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 JOIN #esolangs * :weechat < 1720969550 944911 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@83.223.249.115 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale < 1720969910 818702 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1720970345 452312 :slavfox!~slavfox@93.158.232.111 QUIT :Server closed connection < 1720970366 950066 :slavfox!~slavfox@93.158.232.111 JOIN #esolangs slavfox :slavfox < 1720971159 324246 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@83.223.249.115 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1720971615 898790 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.161.175 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale < 1720971651 883224 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 JOIN #esolangs cpressey :weechat < 1720972825 326172 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.161.175 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1720973059 858114 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1720973693 894454 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 JOIN #esolangs cpressey :weechat < 1720973910 983799 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.146.125 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale < 1720974643 859412 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1720975341 325496 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.146.125 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1720976817 725859 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: help > 1720976862 952692 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133070&oldid=132093 5* 03Ais523 5* (+6) 10/* Tests */ just making sure the wiki is still working, we haven't had any edits for a while < 1720976892 739156 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it's a Sunday < 1720977508 884420 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 JOIN #esolangs * :weechat < 1720978027 910960 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1720979231 234166 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca JOIN #esolangs zzo38 :zzo38 < 1720980212 759211 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anybody have any literature revolving around encoding labeled, directed graphs in unlabeled, undirected graphs? < 1720980288 237948 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wryl: are the former vertex-labeled? < 1720980306 397009 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. < 1720980317 496709 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl PRIVMSG #esolangs :Can either be vertex or edge labeled. < 1720980332 900593 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I'm working with vertex labeled. < 1720980368 767681 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hajnal Péter's book explains encoding unlabelled digraphs into labelled digraphs, for the purpose of showing that graph isomorphism is equally hard for them, but I don't think it has labelled < 1720980388 661222 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perhaps the esowiki's article on Eodermdrone gives a hint? < 1720980433 804552 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been rolling it around in my head for a bit. The criteria is that it needs to be able to be pattern-matched on. < 1720980496 703143 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl PRIVMSG #esolangs :So I give you a list of variables, like `a b, b c, c d, d a`, and that defines a pattern that detects rings of 4 vertices. < 1720980556 964763 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl PRIVMSG #esolangs :I imagine you could form vertex labels via taking complete graphs and using them in place of a labeled vertex. < 1720980649 767051 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl PRIVMSG #esolangs :So `a b, a c, a d, b c, b d, c d`. < 1720980670 115574 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl PRIVMSG #esolangs :Would match a complete graph of 4. < 1720980674 919336 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what I would recommend is to turn each vertex of the old graph into a wheel, and each arc to a 3-path from an outer node of the wheel to an outer node of the second, plus an extra edge dangling from the middle node of that 3-path going to a 1-degree node, and with no outer node of the wheels reused. to decode, you find all the triangles in the new graph, these can only occurr inside the wheels, and get < 1720980680 924653 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the connected components of these triangles which give the wheels. to encode the vertex labeling, make the wheel have more nodes than necessary. < 1720980732 384503 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm. < 1720980790 878832 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this should let you pattern-match on the new graph locally, since any two triangles that share a node must be in the same wheel and there's always two of these connecting any two outer nodes of the wheel, and also any node with degree 2 must be part of what an arc got turned to < 1720980893 15295 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl PRIVMSG #esolangs :Need to chew on that.. thanks! That's certainly different than what I was thinking, trying to visualize it. < 1720980940 40470 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's not the only possible metho < 1720980974 381080 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can devise different ones depending on your requirements < 1720981025 381711 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yours is pretty interesting, though. < 1720981071 615868 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, jjrubes isn't here < 1720981079 623003 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can help with that, but not if I don't know what the requested action is > 1720981407 685699 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:ALWCIDFEC14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133071&oldid=133066 5* 03Ais523 5* (+343) 10proved TC via 3-cell brainfuck < 1720981411 900643 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1720981411 950365 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord > 1720981415 758509 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[073-cell brainfuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133072 5* 03Ais523 5* (+60) 10Redirected page to [[Collatz function#Reduction to 3-cell brainfuck]] < 1720981493 319226 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life > 1720981663 354184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ALWCIDFEC14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133073&oldid=133067 5* 03Ais523 5* (+429) 10TCness proof, because one was requested in chat < 1720981673 944928 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1720981970 376899 :esolangs!~esolangs@techne.zem.fi QUIT :Server closed connection < 1720982008 909851 :esolangs!~esolangs@techne.zem.fi JOIN #esolangs esolangs :esolangs.org < 1720982009 8802 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services.libera.chat MODE #esolangs +v :esolangs < 1720982635 945424 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org JOIN #esolangs leah2 :Leah Neukirchen < 1720983085 8758 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1720983159 927777 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1720983719 84781 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@83.223.250.142 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale < 1720984098 918386 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1720984827 331858 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@83.223.250.142 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1720984860 906620 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1720984903 872953 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1720984971 234140 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org JOIN #esolangs leah2 :Leah Neukirchen < 1720986066 235424 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 JOIN #esolangs * :realname < 1720986539 425437 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1720986714 886888 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 JOIN #esolangs cpressey :weechat < 1720986765 723204 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Client Quit > 1720986803 157071 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ractangle14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133074&oldid=132990 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+42) 10/* Programlangs that i know how to program in them */ < 1720986841 312153 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1720987221 908878 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.203.120 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale < 1720987367 909950 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname > 1720987923 96776 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sakana14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133075&oldid=133064 5* 03TheCanon2 5* (-6) 10Found shorter way to write XKCD Random Number > 1720987988 332727 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fun 2 code14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133076&oldid=133069 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+666) 10 > 1720988032 554266 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fun 2 code14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133077&oldid=133076 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (-33) 10/* Python interpreter */ tiny fixes > 1720988048 147041 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fun 2 code14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133078&oldid=133077 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (-2) 10it was implemented thank you > 1720988211 421873 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133079&oldid=133070 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+42) 10not related to esolangs < 1720988428 188788 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1720988481 452557 :mtm_!~textual@2600:381:f22d:2ca8:707f:cd91:e925:fa80 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1720988515 181345 :mtm!~textual@c-71-228-84-213.hsd1.fl.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1720988895 934650 :mtm!~textual@c-71-228-84-213.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User < 1720989007 887943 :mtm_!~textual@2600:381:f22d:2ca8:707f:cd91:e925:fa80 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1720990530 982694 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1720990866 877542 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1720991196 826134 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1720991671 309128 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is 2 cell bf known to be TC or not? < 1720991837 759205 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1720991913 827872 :mtm!~textual@c-71-228-84-213.hsd1.fl.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1720991942 839166 :mtm!~textual@c-71-228-84-213.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1720992055 924724 :lynndotpy!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 QUIT :Quit: bye bye < 1720992065 616637 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I've picked up this project again... it kind of works (it can make arbitrary shapes, but it still produces some garbage after switching between them... probably need to redo some of the synchronization logic): https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/true-mam-wip.png https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/true-mam-wip-wire.png (proportioned a bit like an iceberg) < 1720992111 837344 :lynndotpy!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 JOIN #esolangs lynndotpy :lynn < 1720992262 351768 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"arbitrary shapes" -- I have not tested this exhaustively. I made a rocket and two other tricky shapes, along with some simple ones. I mostly rely on the fact that the data in the huge ROM is machine generated. < 1720992386 560955 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: you want this true MAM to be strictly synchronized too? that'll be hard < 1720992428 391259 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at what nominal and effective fps does it run? < 1720992469 392112 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :60 for both, it's still below 10ms per tick for me < 1720992512 35350 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nice < 1720992643 839903 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: It's not as bad as you may think; the recipes are fairly uniform < 1720992656 401190 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :true < 1720992741 167807 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: What is this? < 1720992747 375730 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was surprised to find all the resources nearby < 1720992785 558313 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wryl: a shapez.io factory, more or less automated to produce any possible shape that can be made in the game. < 1720992790 163712 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh hell yeah. < 1720992843 229040 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: 2-counter automata are TC provided the counters are unbounded, so if your cells are unbounded, then most likely. < 1720992849 858637 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :something I've been thinking about off and on for a year now I guess... it's tedious to finish these things. < 1720992971 478772 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :2 cell brainfuck is certainly not TC, as it effectively has only one counter because a cell need to be zero to exit a loop. < 1720993011 49799 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, I forgot about that, you'd need 3 cells.. < 1720993040 1227 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :IIRC oerjan actually proved 3 cell BF to be TC? I may be misremembering. < 1720993212 813963 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It only becomes easy at 4 cells I think, since then you have a cell that can be zero, another cell that can manage a program state for control flow, plus two counters. < 1720993266 361798 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"easy" < 1720993276 576620 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah < 1720993312 257990 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl PRIVMSG #esolangs :"We gave you a rock hammer instead of a toothpick." < 1720993332 540555 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :here's a brain to perform surgery on < 1720993592 110776 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's a TCness proof for 3 cell brainfuck on the wiki, although it's in the article about Collatz functions < 1720993658 981155 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah < 1720993704 755274 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I added a redirect to it at https://esolangs.org/wiki/3_cell_brainfuck recently to make it easier to find < 1720993709 74526 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, wrong URL < 1720993717 68049 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :[[e:3-cell brainfuck]] < 1720993719 375228 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err < 1720993723 577903 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/3-cell_brainfuck < 1720993750 147950 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Heh does "e:" work on the wiki? < 1720993766 224903 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think so, it's something I set up for my IRC client < 1720993770 990413 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah < 1720993782 564741 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I link to Esolang often enough that I've had it set up for ages < 1720993787 985981 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that would've been my second guess. < 1720993824 655100 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I don't use it often enough to motivate me to fix the bug where it doesn't work if you type space rather than underscore :-) < 1720993892 807482 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And... that reduction was added by oerjan in 2011. :) < 1720993897 195586 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :proving that 2-cell BF is nontrivial – Minsky machines can be written to exit loops only when the cell is zero – but the problem is that to read the remainder of a divmod instruction you need multiple places where the loop can end < 1720993909 366162 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* proving that 2-cell BF is Turing-incomplete < 1720993931 915878 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it'd work if the loops terminated if the cell was less than some fixed integer, for fairly small integers (I think 3 might work) < 1720993941 968598 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even if the cells weren't allowed to go negative < 1720994238 541161 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can believe 3, yeah. Possibly even 2, just enough to maintain 2 counters n, m, as 4^n 3^m and enable division by 2 and by 3 (noting that 4^n = 1 (mod 3)), but I'm not too sure about the control flow afterwards. < 1720994258 786616 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, I meant 3 as in loop halts on 0, 1, 2 < 1720994267 920044 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :same < 1720994274 848504 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thus letting you divide by 2 and 3 and still remember the remainder < 1720994276 601986 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks ais523 for adding that link, I knew 3cell bf was TC, but the proof was hard to find. I now see it _is_ linked from the bf article, but it's a big article < 1720994293 455835 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but you're right, there are tricks to ensure the remainder is always 0 or 1 < 1720994295 4792 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: what I'm saying is that you don't necessarily need all the remainders < 1720994323 694995 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know I've thought about that for TCness proofs before, but can't remember the last time I used it < 1720994330 224468 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :was it in the Netrunner TCness proof? or did that not need it? < 1720994349 299714 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was thinking that you don't neccesarily need to exit all your loops to perform arbitrary computation, so 2 cell bf could be TC, with that caveat. < 1720994381 886072 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was trying to show that 2 register PMMN wasn't TC back in 2022, but decided it was TC, with that trick < 1720994399 17781 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a loop either gets exited eventually or only affects a finite portion of the program at the start < 1720994430 899646 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so in a language that can initialize itself to an arbitrary state without loops (like BF can), a loop either gets exited or it doesn't contribute to the program's TCness < 1720994434 549358 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl PRIVMSG #esolangs :PMMN? < 1720994443 79710 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Portable_Minsky_Machine_Notation < 1720994447 77969 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah. < 1720994457 608711 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's Minsky machines but with while rather than goto < 1720994463 887993 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if all possible end states are some internal loop you can have some finite number of end state classes, and one register can be unbounded at the 'end' < 1720994538 898533 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :PMMN has richer control flow than brainfuck < 1720994538 968540 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl PRIVMSG #esolangs :Interesting. < 1720994539 643832 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess 2-cell BF might be TC if you allowed an infinite program < 1720994548 326704 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523, My hypothesis is either 2 reg PMMN is not TC, or 2 cell bf is TC. One of those is true. And I think they are both TC, with a trick. < 1720994550 123744 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the ({})%-1 notation from BF Joust might be interesting < 1720994633 987819 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: so the fundamental problem in proving 2-cell BF TC is that if you have a division loop, you need to know the remainder in advance, otherwise you can go past 0 by mistake if you get the remainder wrong < 1720994661 115057 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that doesn't quite disprove the TCness of the language but it makes it seem unlikely < 1720994714 29749 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this is assuming that you need to record the result of the division somewhere, so you can't use the other cell as a way to escape an inner loop) < 1720994823 238300 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have some code that decrements virtual prime encoded registers in one of the two registers, which I think works correctly, IIRC the only problem was exiting loops (as int-e mentioned) < 1720994871 737400 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll have to dust the code off and check whether it handles that division loop problem < 1720994875 575652 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, 2-reg PMMN is TC, it can simulate a 2-reg Minsky machine with arbitrary state transitions. < 1720994913 697052 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :PMMN has if statements, which I think help in this situation? < 1720994925 548954 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :They do. < 1720994967 327255 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :They allow you to structure your program as one while loop with a big switch() inside. < 1720994971 448259 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The point I wanted to make was that n reg PMMN can simulate n-1 Minsky Machines trivially, < 1720995015 471554 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :One PMMN reg is needed to basically convert the while loops to arbitrary jumps. The if/else doesn't really help < 1720995037 943890 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1720995056 970881 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm. Maybe I'm missing something, let me think. < 1720995063 941618 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm.. int-e we seem to be disagreeing on that. < 1720995158 312740 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It was a while ago that I was working on this, I'm just picking it back up, so I could be mistaken also. Maybe I do need to formalise my idea < 1720995183 17754 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh! I think 2-register PMMN can do Spiral Rise < 1720995224 316840 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because you can, when dividing one counter, conditionally add to the other < 1720995235 996946 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, maybe it can't because Spiral Rise needs to track two pieces of information between states < 1720995240 803662 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, between times things go zero < 1720995276 772597 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I remember you working on this, salpynx. < 1720995299 137624 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think it does Spiral Rise, exactly – but it can do the "add the remainder of x onto y" trick < 1720995327 657036 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh you have to add another level of the same trick. A single register can store both the counters and the state as well, say 2^a * 3^b * N + s, a and b being the counters and s being the state. Then your main loop can divide by N with remainder (tracked in control flow), then inside you can divide the counter by 2 or 3 if you're decrementing, and then you can make another look to multiply by N... < 1720995333 667946 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :...and add the next state, and still exit the division loop. And then copy the new register back and repeat from the start. < 1720995413 650595 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so my problem is that I can see how you can track the state in the remainder, and I can see how you can track the state in the control flow, but I can't easily see a way to take a state that's encoded in the remainder and use it to affect the control flow (rather than the remainder) < 1720995458 448984 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can nest the conditionals < 1720995466 224423 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because, at the point where you leave a while loop, the tested counter is 0 and the control flow is always in the same place, so the only place you have to store data is the remainder of the other counter < 1720995479 596780 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and the counter itself, obviously) < 1720995504 822853 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh right, you just get the inner conditional to multiply/divide the other counter < 1720995666 493088 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have this comment in my code: The only way to break out of the outer while() which contains inner while()s acting as v.reg if()s is to have both physical registers zeroed. One register must be 0 to break out of the last inner while (testing a v.reg), and the other must be zero to break out of the main program loop, indicating a HALT condition has been reached. < 1720995725 103991 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suspect the pattern that makes PMMN work is along the lines of an outer while that contains if/else statements, and all the inner whiles are inside else blocks < 1720995752 404017 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The not being able to break out of the outher while seemed like a problem, but it seems like you can just branch inwards, and never leave the other loops, but still complete useful computation < 1720995805 560641 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if the program is finitely long there's a limit to how much you can branch inwards < 1720995814 698968 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh < 1720995921 913478 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523, I was worried about that, there are only finite many of these internal looped end states that can be in the source... I thought the saving aspect would be the remaining required state could be encoded in virtual registers, which is unbounded. < 1720995986 399753 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, so the idea is that you branch inwards to some extent and encode state into the other register while you're doing it < 1720996028 446070 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the problem there is the control flow while registers have large valeus < 1720996029 792076 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well this has convinced that I should probably keep going and clarify things, at least make my ideas clear, or show I've missed something < 1720996061 326698 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, in any TC calculation there will be a point where both registers have values much larger than the length of your program < 1720996103 794955 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and once such a point is reached, you end up funneling into an innermost loop and getting stuck there until one register has entirely drained into the other – which usually means knowing what the remainders are at that point < 1720996135 398593 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I guess the innermost loop has to be a simple "add (an integer multiple of) one register to the other, without dividing"? < 1720996135 426472 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was using prime encoded virtual registers, so you get a finite number of those that you encode into your program, and each is unbounded. < 1720996159 1040 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am not convinced the registers are readable < 1720996237 599236 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This is some of my old code which tests vreg incs and decs using 2 reg PMMN: https://github.com/hornc/py_program_machine/blob/master/tests/test_2register.py < 1720996331 348947 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm going to go through and create some more usable vreg helpers... I thought implementing the Ackermann function would force me to make sure everything works. (That might be stupidly ambitious) < 1720996419 214578 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, so the idea is that you are purely doing inc and dec, not inc and dec-and-test, so you do know the remainder because you know you aren't decrementing 0 < 1720996479 15017 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I cannot see a way to run this conditionally < 1720996491 449385 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :.. I'm hoping there is a way to do dec-and-test, looking at it a fresh I noticed that wasn't demonstrated clearly, so I need to do that < 1720996507 464673 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :based on the value of a vreg < 1720996553 147407 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the test is the hard part < 1720996590 654170 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suspect that if it's possible at all, it will involve a loop that swaps the value between the two counters on every iteration < 1720996602 966673 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think L243 is supposed to show a virtual test occurring... but I agree it's not clear, so I need to double check it < 1720996630 948489 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, you are using if statements < 1720996653 206458 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was thinking about 2-cell BF rather than PMMN in the discussion above < 1720996667 952595 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :with if statements (and particularly else statements) it's much easier < 1720996727 733487 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, the loop that swaps the value between two counters doesn't work because it would have nowhere to store the quotient < 1720996750 755578 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe I am mixing my 2 cell bf and PMMN now, I wasn't when I wrote this code originally. The similarity between 2 cell bf and PMMN only just struck me recently. < 1720997072 602988 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Thanks all for the comments, it's given me the inspiration to think on this more and I'll try to clarify my work with some examples < 1720997289 148998 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :My summary: Conventional take is that 2 reg PMMN is TC, and that 2 cell bf is not (primarily because it can't do if/else?). < 1720997365 181705 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if I think it's more complicated than that, I need to be clear about what I'm saying, and an explicit 2 reg PMMN TC proof wouldn't hurt regardless. < 1720997366 793389 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right < 1720998181 660225 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Here's a prototype; it simulates a simple loop that moves one register to another, and you can see that it successfully converts 2^7 (7 in first register) to 3^7 (7 in second register): https://paste.debian.net/1323292/ < 1720998269 931140 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ooh, postdecrement operator < 1720998641 173590 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1720998729 426669 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's relatively easy to modify this such that it can actually terminate; just move the final inc(a) to where the new a is computed. It's not obvious to me whether you can exfiltrate more than finitely many values from such a computation. < 1720998835 332528 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.203.120 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1720999087 998565 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 JOIN #esolangs cpressey :weechat < 1721000672 938066 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway that PMMN construction makes heavy use of if-then-else, and 2-cell BF doesn't give you an `else`; it hardly even gives you an 'if' (since you can only exit blocks when the current cell is 0)