< 1721088123 723044 :amby!~ambylastn@2a00:23c5:ce05:7801:c0ba:8a15:19b:b591 QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1721088138 635750 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sakana14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133136&oldid=133135 5* 03TheCanon2 5* (+66) 10Program has a mistake and I dont care to actually fix it
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< 1721088382 167463 :mtm!~textual@c-71-228-84-213.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
< 1721089412 954383 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@83.223.234.98 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale
> 1721089641 471009 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ORK/None1 again14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133137&oldid=132851 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+42) 10
> 1721089667 929749 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ORK/PSTF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133138&oldid=132899 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+33) 10
> 1721090312 162729 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sakana14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133139&oldid=133136 5* 03TheCanon2 5* (-66) 10Undo revision [[Special:Diff/133136|133136]] by [[Special:Contributions/TheCanon2|TheCanon2]] ([[User talk:TheCanon2|talk]])
> 1721091615 343485 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Small14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133140&oldid=132911 5* 03TheCanon2 5* (+221) 10Added another interpreter.
< 1721092438 60165 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Excess Flood
< 1721092764 291786 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
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< 1721096283 928349 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@83.223.234.98 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale
> 1721096902 909685 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07H14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133141 5* 03TheCanon2 5* (+1759) 10Created a new esolang H
> 1721097240 190825 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07H14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133142&oldid=133141 5* 03TheCanon2 5* (+11) 10Fixed formatting error
> 1721097352 245622 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:TheCanon214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133143&oldid=132807 5* 03TheCanon2 5* (+20) 10Added H to my page
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< 1721099693 857380 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in M:tG, can you bound the amount of hidden information revealed to a player at any point of the game, and the amount of hidden information that the player makes in their decisions, with a bound that any other player can compute? ideally a small enough bound? eg. if I look at a card, I learn only as many bits as needed to describe what printing it is, and there are only a few ten thousand available in 
< 1721099699 868885 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :any format. if I search my deck with a Tutor then I learn the order of much more cards, but other players will still know how many cards there are in my deck, so the can bound how much information I learn, and then my decision for which card I pick is a choice from one plus as many possibilities as there are cards in the deck. I'm asking this as a simplified theoretical model for when I play M:tG on 
< 1721099705 874781 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :computer through a trusted third party simulating the game state and rules, can this be designed such that the sizes of (encrypted) messages sent between me and the third party don't leak information in theory.
< 1721100055 178953 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are some tricky cases like
< 1721100061 914891 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name choice of damnations
< 1721100064 750698 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Choice of Damnations \ 5B \ Sorcery -- Arcane \ Target opponent chooses a number. You may have that player lose that much life. If you don't, that player sacrifices all but that many permanents. \ SOK-R
< 1721100206 981952 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name Squee's Revenge
< 1721100208 339275 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Squee's Revenge \ 1UR \ Sorcery \ Choose a number. Flip a coin that many times or until you lose a flip, whichever comes first. If you win all the flips, draw two cards for each flip. \ AP-U
< 1721100285 672222 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wheel of Misfortune is another one
< 1721100371 913652 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, I'm not sure if this is possible in theory then. the practical question is if you can give a small enough upper bound that works in almost all cases except it may fail for some weird ones like these cards when a player makes an unusual choice, rather than in theory having a bound but it requiring messages longer than the size of the universe
< 1721100428 812359 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Some information is going to be known by both players anyways (you could have a separate part of the message, perhaps with a HMAC, in this case), although other than that I don't know.
< 1721100473 403091 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :When searching your library, most effects you will shuffle the library afterward anyways, but the card you pick is just one in however many cards there are; this is also true if you have to select a card from your hand without showing your opponent, etc.
< 1721100553 798520 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or at least, is there a reasonable bound in cases before the simulation breaks down anyway because you've created a huge game state that's hard to track, like an amount of tokens larger than the size of the universe
< 1721100720 879815 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: shuffle after search => yes, but there are cases like Spin into Myth when the opponent may have rearranged your library in an order that they know but you don't, and then you learn that order when you search, before you shuffle
< 1721100846 38372 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and IIRC there were even some weird cases when you do something with your library while there are tokens or copies of spells in it before those tokens evaporate
< 1721101096 240005 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, in fact I should ask, is that possible? 
< 1721101159 211391 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can have the cost of a mana ability sacrifice a token copy of Darksteel Colossus to get a token into your library while you pay for something, but that's not enough
< 1721101316 34285 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can also use Deranged Assistant to mill a card as the cost of a mana ability, and that can mill such a token. 
< 1721101352 229475 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but was there some way to shuffle or reorder your library while there are still tokens in it?
< 1721101374 212355 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Does "draw a card" skip over anything that isn't a card, or will you draw whatever object is in the top of your library even if it is not a card? Similar with mill; it specifically says cards, but does not specifically say that objects other than cards do not count, so it is unclear
< 1721101441 258765 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess there probably wasn't, because most of the time it would run into the limit that you would have to learn hidden info while the game is in a state that may need to be reverted because a spell can't be cast
< 1721101464 972621 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: I think it still acts on anything in your library that isn't a card
< 1721101530 519048 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not entirely sure
< 1721101629 592143 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: 608.2j would be the relevant rule, but I'm not sure it covers this
< 1721101715 772484 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm no, that rule probably doesn't apply, it only mentions "changed characteristics", being a card or not isn't a characteristics, and it doesn't change here
< 1721101738 245878 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know the answer then
< 1721101748 394058 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`card-by-name darksteel colossus
< 1721101750 334769 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Darksteel Colossus \ 11 \ Artifact Creature -- Golem \ 11/11 \ Trample, indestructible \ If Darksteel Colossus would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, reveal Darksteel Colossus and shuffle it into its owner's library instead. \ DST-R, M10-M
< 1721101791 477705 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: ^ M:tG questions
< 1721102502 998587 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1721102686 523161 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok wait
< 1721102869 616758 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is annoying, apparently rule 121.8, which hides cards while you're in a revertable state trying to cast a spell, is too narrowly worded and doesn't cover Deranged Assistant, so you reveal the milled card. why didn't they amend that rule?
< 1721102994 371979 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it gets worse if that spell is Disentomb which might or might not be possible to cast depending on what you milled
< 1721103269 442305 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what I wanted to ask is, if during casting a spell you pay for it by saccing a token copy of Darksteel Colossus to Phyrexian Tower so it immediately goes into your library, then is it public information what position in the library the token is, but it appears this might not cause an observable difference, because Deranged Assistant reveals the card you milled anyway, and in most other cases the 
< 1721103275 448760 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :position of the token doesn't matter before it evaporates
< 1721103650 932095 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah no! I'm wrong
< 1721103938 268569 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :601.2 says that during casting a spell, you pay costs late enough, after choosing targets and other choices, that what the mill reveals won't be able to influence your choices, you can't target a card in the graveyard that Phy Tower moved there. and I think, but I'm not sure, that if you sac a permanent to Phy Tower that's a target of the spell, you can still finish casting the spell, that the target is 
< 1721103944 277077 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :invalid isn't checked again until the spell resolved
< 1721103949 563026 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :heck, I'm confused by all these rules and I'm probably getting a lot wrong.
> 1721105395 118712 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07H14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133144&oldid=133142 5* 03TheCanon2 5* (+354) 10Added a Hello World program
< 1721105447 621117 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm no that's probably not true and I just confused myself
< 1721105616 569899 :CATS!apic@brezn3.muc.ccc.de QUIT :Server closed connection
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< 1721106844 99126 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
> 1721106848 477148 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated Shakespeare14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133145&oldid=133117 5* 03Unname4798 5* (+18) 10
> 1721106864 943746 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated Shakespeare14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133146&oldid=133145 5* 03Unname4798 5* (+1) 10
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> 1721106986 241216 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated JS14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133147 5* 03Unname4798 5* (+2153) 10Created page with "1. Take [[Arithmetic]] interpreter in JS: <pre> function interpret(a){const e=a.split`\n`;let o="",st=x=p=c=P=C=+o,r,v;for(const n of e){if((!++C)||n==[])continue;if(st==0&&n=="==Begin Exam "+ ++x+"=="&&++st&&!(v={},p=c=P=+!v))continue;if(st==1&&(m=n.match(/^([
< 1721106988 689690 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll have to read 601.2 carefully to see how this works
< 1721106997 602363 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@ec2-52-79-98-81.ap-northeast-2.compute.amazonaws.com JOIN #esolangs lifthrasiir :Kang Seonghoon
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< 1721109944 892192 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
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< 1721117652 40145 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Excess Flood
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> 1721125731 836254 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated Shakespeare14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133148&oldid=133146 5* 03Unname4798 5* (+18) 10
> 1721125988 677919 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated Shakespeare14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133149&oldid=133148 5* 03Unname4798 5* (-18) 10
< 1721126336 892033 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
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> 1721128565 617803 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Laptop-Salad 5*  10New user account
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< 1721129286 24437 :sprout!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-bd3d-b7cf-ad17-1736.fixed6.kpn.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1721129484 729011 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot NICK :Guest7326
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< 1721131528 344091 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1721131583 23714 :mtm!~textual@c-71-228-84-213.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
< 1721131661 73156 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh this is great! in Windows 10, I have a batch file where one line says `>a.txt .\animal.exe` . the batch file executes the right thing and redirects to the right place, but it echoes the command as `.\animal.exe1>a.txt` which is not actually valid cmd syntax
> 1721132316 668919 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133150&oldid=133120 5* 03Xff 5* (+155) 10/* operations/ISA */
< 1721132557 354681 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@83.223.234.98 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
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< 1721133783 328079 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1721133805 179686 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133151&oldid=133150 5* 03Xff 5* (-113) 10
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< 1721135244 670978 :amby!~ambylastn@2a00:23c5:ce05:7801:6c16:b559:7ab2:1178 JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1721135635 768981 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net JOIN #esolangs m5zs7k :m5zs7k
> 1721136310 60111 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:H14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133152&oldid=113660 5* 03Rico040 5* (+168) 10/* Whether this esolang is case sensitive or not */
> 1721136605 303934 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Xff 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:Ascii table-chart.png10]]"
> 1721136784 84895 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133154&oldid=133151 5* 03Xff 5* (+729) 10
< 1721137267 33214 :joast!~rick@syn-098-146-180-036.res.spectrum.com QUIT :Quit: Leaving.
> 1721137828 579345 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133155&oldid=133154 5* 03Xff 5* (+326) 10
> 1721137929 227742 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133156&oldid=133155 5* 03Xff 5* (+7) 10/* idea 3 */
< 1721139187 972920 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1721139213 102627 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: there are people working on a deck that can do busy beaver amounts of damage, but not infinite damage – and Wheel of Fortune can be comboed with Pact of Intervention to gain an arbitrary amount of life
< 1721139224 865049 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which means that, theoretically, if you're doing that combo it's optimal to name a busy beaver number
< 1721139269 926472 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(also that ping of me was pointless, I don't get pinged in the logs so I will notice the conversation before I notice the ping)
< 1721139346 457070 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1721139353 794300 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133157&oldid=133121 5* 03Ais523 5* (-256) 10Undo revision [[Special:Diff/133121|133121]] by [[Special:Contributions/Tommyaweosme|Tommyaweosme]] ([[User talk:Tommyaweosme|talk]])  please don't confuse new users
< 1721139383 167121 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
< 1721139533 323804 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I didn't think it would ping you... but my impression is that it sometimes catches your eyes when reading logs
< 1721139647 59729 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I more commonly read the content of the messages than the pings
< 1721139679 118064 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I think there is one way to make an arbitrary amount of secret information in Magic: make arbitrarily many token copies of A Killer Among Us
< 1721139776 897110 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that card was printed pretty recently, so there may have been a limit on secret information until this year (I don't know the exact release date offhand but the card is copyright 2024)
< 1721140161 973416 :X-Scale49!~X-Scale@31.22.148.65 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale
< 1721140207 401303 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@83.223.248.147 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1721140316 491052 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: interesting, but that isn't a counterexample to what I was asking. it will be public information how many of those tokens I create, so from just public information you can compute an upper bound on the amount of secret information.
< 1721140324 663197 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, I see
< 1721140331 357612 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :also... when did they rename tribal to kindred?
< 1721140343 149678 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :MH3, the most recently printed set
< 1721140343 983359 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1721140358 840859 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's unrelated to this question, I'm just wondering. I had heard that battle is now a card type, but this is new
< 1721140362 88966 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
< 1721140363 547309 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :thank you
< 1721140385 529464 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :totem armor was also renamed to umbra armor at the same time
< 1721140391 130691 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(possibly related)
< 1721140606 957766 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see
< 1721140722 339957 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is still very awkward that "tribal" (formerly) / "kindred" (nowadays) is technically a noun in M:tG grammar despite being an adjective in English
< 1721140886 14676 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :meanwhile, I'm writing a program to count how many different polyminos there are. for ordinary polyminos, depending on what rotations or mirrorings you distinguish, you have https://oeis.org/A000105 https://oeis.org/A000988 https://oeis.org/A056780 https://oeis.org/A056783 https://oeis.org/A151522 https://oeis.org/A151525 https://oeis.org/A182645 .
< 1721140886 495821 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :confusingly the listings in OEIS for first two show the number of polyminos made of 0 cells, the listings for the rest don't, or something like that.
< 1721140921 378898 :X-Scale49!~X-Scale@31.22.148.65 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
> 1721141030 634264 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[072dL14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133158 5* 03Xff 5* (+3033) 10Created page with "'''2dL''' is a 2d representation of lambda calculus.its no exactly lambda calculus but.. also it was created by [[User:Yayimhere]] == overview == memory is stored in two stacks. on stack holds functions(the '''function stack''') and another holds the input of these function(the
< 1721141083 368296 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think M:tG uses those words (and most other words meaning a characteristic) as both noun and adjective in rules text: "creature" as noun when it means a permanent, or "creature card" or "creature spell" as noun phrase (so "creature" in that is an adjective) when it's an object in another zone
< 1721141108 336487 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, not most other words meaning a characteristic, "red" isn't used as a noun to mean red permanents
< 1721141137 335530 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so "red" is only adjective,
< 1721141290 548947 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but many subtypes are used as both: https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/8/benalish-commander "number of Soldiers you control" vs https://scryfall.com/card/apc/9/enlistment-officer "all Soldier cards revealed this way"
< 1721141352 48388 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and they do this even when the word for the type name is usually an adjective in ordinary English, see Boldwyr Imitator
> 1721141620 285358 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[072dL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133159&oldid=133158 5* 03Gggfr 5* (+46) 10
> 1721141732 500003 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[072dL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133160&oldid=133159 5* 03Gggfr 5* (+0) 10
> 1721141748 146620 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Markov algorithm14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133161 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+676) 10Created page with "{{stub}} A '''markov algorithm''' (or markov chain) is a form of artificial intelligence used in various fields of science, including programming. == How it works == One term has a chance to go to other terms, but the chances are different, and the path it 
> 1721141808 731791 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Markov algorithm14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133162&oldid=133161 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+6) 10listify
> 1721141845 985337 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133163&oldid=132948 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+90) 10
< 1721142101 59189 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: I am not 100% sure on the name that people who study grammar give to it, but a noun can be used like an adjective in some circumstances and I think that's one of them
< 1721142118 200753 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :as in "Soldier creature" / "Soldier card"
< 1721142213 78731 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or indeed "Magic card", when referring to the game of Magic: the Gathering (which is a noun) – it doesn't mean "a card that is magic" but "a card that is part of the game Magic"
< 1721142949 793553 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1721142968 926817 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or like the Soldier Ant inside the epic NetHack4     ♥
< 1721142970 593635 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :+s
< 1721143356 74284 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is a surprising amount of overlap between NetHack players and esoprogrammers
< 1721143366 758957 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(to the extent that I am mildly upset that NetHack isn't, AFAICT, Turing-complete)
< 1721143388 574332 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would probably make it TC if I could think of a way to do it without arousing suspicions
< 1721143577 432059 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Nice
< 1721143595 755970 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: As a DevTeam-Member, You could easily make it so.     😌
< 1721143667 785073 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it would have to make sense with the rest of the game
< 1721143789 254521 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Really?
< 1721143807 303352 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Then You could at least add a small Toering-Branch   😉
< 1721143859 980715 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder if the Sokoban branch counts as being enough to make it PSPACE-complete – my guess is no, the PSPACE-completeness is the complexity for a Sokoban *solver*, not the program that enforces the ruels
> 1721143892 273889 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IBC14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133164&oldid=77563 5* 03TheCanon2 5* (+250) 10Added a Hello, World! program
< 1721143928 837386 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION would really, really like a Sokoban-Solver inside the Game   😉
< 1721143936 868418 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe as a Reward for killing Vlad or something
< 1721143952 563803 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Without the Wiki-Spoiler, i totally suck at Sokoban
< 1721144090 868524 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, vanilla NetHack has only 8 Sokoban levels
< 1721144103 978473 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it isn't too bad to just memorize all of them
< 1721144137 23220 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm actually fairly good at Sokoban – about 10 years ago I was seriously ill and took a few months to recover, and one of the things I did to pass the time was to play Sokoban levels
< 1721144153 772559 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but they still quite frequently stumped me for ages
< 1721144251 490949 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION has almost no Brain-Memory left
< 1721144274 311297 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :But i have my electronic Devices with me almost all the Time, so i can live with that very fine.
< 1721144551 621531 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Something's very quirky about Sokoban. I think it's the necessary backwards reasoning; one has to maintain a list of partial goals at all times. Rush Hour's got the same issue.
< 1721144603 538117 :korvo!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Makes me wonder if there's a lesson about PSPACE-complete puzzles. Chess also comes apart this way, with "endgame" analysis.
< 1721145262 336960 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :A program that takes a Sokoban configuration, and a list of moves, as input, and outputs T if the moves solve the puzzle, or F otherwise.
< 1721145270 803632 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Doesn't sound PSPACE to me
< 1721145375 333180 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sokoban solvability is in PSPACE though.
< 1721145383 212824 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Err PSPACE-complete.
< 1721145404 208374 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The game logic itself is firmly in P.
< 1721145497 12190 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION probably has more hours in Sokoban than in any other game. Though most of that was spent optimizing known solutions instead of solving new puzzles.
< 1721145549 780671 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah sorry
< 1721145558 87582 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I meant PSPACE-complete
< 1721145567 612770 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Obviously it is /in/ PSPACE
< 1721145681 597394 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(This means that optimal solutions can have exponential length. Which changes the meaning of P between verifier (input includes a solution) and solver)
< 1721146016 253308 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you believe nethack is not yet Turing-complete, and would make it Turing-complete if it made sense in the game. that's reasonable, yes.
< 1721146056 191528 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1721146163 397338 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I could get back into Sokoban too if I tried... managed to untangle this one first try: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/soko.png
< 1721146211 16043 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION tries to imagine a Sokoban board where the optimal solution has length exponential in the size of the board
< 1721146275 281649 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can't see it but I'm not immediately skeptical of it either
< 1721146313 488770 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I used to have a Sokoban game on a candybar phone. I solved all the levels except one. I've been meaning to find that phone (or that level), write a Sokoban solver, have it tell me what the solution is
> 1721147140 995556 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Theoretica14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133165&oldid=52549 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+75) 10Categories
> 1721147336 541476 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Braingolf14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133166&oldid=51911 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+53) 10Categories
< 1721147430 309092 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :The mazzoo once suggested me to install Pixel Dungeon on my Phone.
< 1721147441 106506 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :But i still liked and like NetHack4 much, much better.
< 1721147449 228151 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Pixel Dungeon even has multiple different Keys.
< 1721147459 185130 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :We really, really do not need moar Keys than Skeleton Keys.
< 1721148027 927363 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1721149966 780040 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :APic: you could play Spelunky 2, it only has three kinds of keys (ordinary key, gold key, skeleton key). 
< 1721149974 697777 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Nope.
< 1721150103 556908 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :In NetHack, we have Credit Cards, Skeleton Keys and Lockpicks.
< 1721150334 895747 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :APic: and the MKOT, and you STILL can't reliably disarm chest traps unless you're a rogue with the MKOT because the formula is stupid, even though this could be fixed with a one-line patch
< 1721150376 781764 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm still really annoyed about that
< 1721150390 19309 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION loved always getting blasted when i used it.   😉
< 1721150638 762437 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1721151431 149223 :joast!~rick@syn-098-146-180-036.res.spectrum.com JOIN #esolangs joast :purple
< 1721151642 881315 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1721152696 270142 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:B jonas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133167&oldid=132001 5* 03B jonas 5* (+10) 10/* Games that the esolangs community plays */ ais523 has a point
< 1721153440 299828 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay this was fun to reconstruct (I have read the Sokoban is PSPACE paper but that was ages ago.) IIRC they bootstrapped everything from 2, (maybe 3) simple gadgets. 2 are enough to do binary counting: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/sokoban-1-bit-counter.png
< 1721153521 261505 :SGautam!uid286066@id-286066.ilkley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs SGautam :Siddharth Gautam
< 1721153542 681353 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the point here is that you have to use the entry (where the agent is) twice in order to exit below once; the first time you have to use the left path instead to prepare the right path to become usable)
< 1721153562 509880 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey left of course
< 1721153590 884460 :DHeadshot!~DHeadshot@cpc82623-woki8-2-0-cust106.6-2.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs DHeadshot :Deadly Headshot
< 1721153627 627561 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So you can stack several of those and force an exponential solution length
< 1721153759 15439 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The two basic gadgets here are the usual one-way gadget (this has four of those) and a weird back-and-forth gadget (that can be used in one direction and reset by going back; but you can also add extra reset paths if you protect that by its own back-and-forth gadget)
< 1721153857 226142 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, so back to polyminos. for ordinary polyminos, depending on what rotations and mirrorings count as the same polymino: none => https://oeis.org/A001168 (2,6,19,63), central => https://oeis.org/A151522 (2,4,13,35,120), horz => https://oeis.org/A151525 (2,4,12,35,116), diag => https://oeis.org/A182645 (1,4,10,34), rect => https://oeis.org/A056780 (2,3,9,21), diamond => https://oeis.org/A056783 
< 1721153863 584885 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(1,3,7,20), rotate => https://oeis.org/A000988 (1,2,7,18), square => https://oeis.org/A000105 (1,2,5,12,35,108). 
< 1721153875 842590 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :35 shows up in three of these sequences, but that's probably just a co-incidence
< 1721154174 423669 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :why have I done that relatively recently (without considering symmetries)... oh because of https://research.ibm.com/haifa/ponderthis/challenges/June2022.html
< 1721154258 782320 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1721154343 697983 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now weighted polyminos aka polyminos with multiplicity, that is, the same square can be used multiple times. none => https://oeis.org/A113174 (3,11,44,184), central => (3,7,28,98,422,1768,7912,35489,162809,751789), horz => (3,8,29,106,433,1821,7998,35818,163398,753770), diag => (2,7,24,98,405,1768,7837,35488,162468,751776), rect => (3,6,21,63,248,963,4158,18190,82522,378409,1759438), diamond => 
< 1721154350 69629 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(2,5,16,55,220,910,3997,17860,81592,376415,1754071), rotate => (2,4,15,50,212,885,3959,17747,81407,375897,1753218), square => https://oeis.org/A331621 (2,4,12,35).
< 1721154356 190018 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1721154359 769929 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :interestingly most of these aren't in OEIS
< 1721154494 785960 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :next I want to do polykings, which is an easy modification of the current program, as well as polyminos with the squares coming in two or three distinct colors. then polyamonds, polyhexes, 3-d polyminos, and perhaps 4-d polyminos: these are harder both because the shapes are not so easy to show in a dumb terminal for debugging, and also I need to find all the symmetry groups.
< 1721154772 548608 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1721154790 232632 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1721154898 323577 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll also compute a few more terms of these, though not as many as there are already in the OEIS
< 1721154978 857091 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Excess Flood
< 1721155127 270292 :Bowserinator_!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1721155138 9254 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I might also want to compute the polyshapes on the 4D densest sphere packing grid, you know the one
< 1721155149 920970 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator JOIN #esolangs Bowserinator :No VPS :(
< 1721155178 508923 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1721155470 71785 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 JOIN #esolangs cpressey :weechat
> 1721155741 633045 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Markov algorithm14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133168&oldid=133162 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+80) 10Capitalisation, external resources, category
< 1721155980 933185 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1721156286 292499 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
> 1721158182 403002 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Portable Minsky Machine Notation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133169&oldid=100705 5* 03Int-e 5* (+2646) 10/* Computational class */
< 1721158243 71913 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: whoops, forgot the message; it's about the 2 counter case
> 1721158397 446105 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[072dL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133170&oldid=133160 5* 03Xff 5* (+84) 10
> 1721158641 142497 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[072dL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133171&oldid=133170 5* 03Xff 5* (+89) 10
< 1721158641 296986 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :does Smalltalk have a comment syntax?
< 1721158665 907275 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :most examples I've seen have no comments – and one example I just looked at is setting properties on objects that are never read, to have somewhere to put comments
< 1721158745 15129 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://riptutorial.com/smalltalk/example/19305/literals-and-comments "Comments are enclosed in double quotes. BEWARE: This is NOT a string!"
< 1721158824 102561 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh dear
< 1721158876 767250 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :isn't that Forth?
< 1721158904 681938 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess they're kind of related so that makes sense
< 1721158973 356730 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh wow
< 1721159048 478153 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :( This is a comment in Forth. )
< 1721159098 991876 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and yes, you do need the spaces)
> 1721159120 263908 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[072dL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133172&oldid=133171 5* 03Xff 5* (+338) 10
> 1721159153 921931 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[072dL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133173&oldid=133172 5* 03Xff 5* (+0) 10
< 1721159158 331617 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :parentheses for comments makes sense if your syntax is more inspired by English than maths
< 1721159165 415260 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although I guess square brackets might work even better
< 1721159175 624335 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :needing the spaces intuitively makes sense to me, at least
> 1721159182 90423 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[072dL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133174&oldid=133173 5* 03Xff 5* (+4) 10/* examples */
< 1721159217 706028 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Forth has a pretty primitive concept of "word" and if you want to start a word with a parenthesis Forth is totally fine with that
< 1721159242 158601 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I never understood Forth... it just felt arcane and annoyingly low level and that's basically where I lost interest since it was supposedly high level.
< 1721159306 916999 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also think that it's fair to say that it never really caught on.
< 1721159317 402688 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Forth is supposed to be high level? 
< 1721159443 870199 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's possible that this claim was just one article from an enthusiast in some computer magazine
< 1721159451 257439 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :in the 90s
< 1721159483 743187 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Compared to assembly language, which is what Chuck Moore was trying to do better than, Forth is high level.
< 1721159518 491799 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's some amount of churn where the high-level language of today is the low-level language of one or two decades from now, but I don't understand why Forth would have counted as high-level even back then. Smalltalk is high-level, that I can understand.
< 1721159554 288499 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's some kind of quote about how he "wanted to write more than 5 programs in his life", or something, but it's possibly aprocyphal.
< 1721159576 809874 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpressey: oh you returned, you may find https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2024-07-16.html#lee ff. interesting. maybe.
< 1721159618 183424 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sorry https://www.forth.com/resources/forth-programming-language/ says "My original goal was to write more than 40 programs in my life." But anyway.
< 1721159669 218712 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :40!
< 1721159849 192293 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: yes, it's interesting, thanks.  PSPACE is always interesting to me.
< 1721160059 678636 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :RPN is great but I agree that Forth-per-se-Forth has some weird snags in it that I have never cottoned to. They always drag things down to the implementation level. Threaded code, the dictionary, ...
< 1721160483 777189 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, but "40 programs in my life" made more sense in the 1970s, when people didn't have a computer or even terminal at home, but just had occasional access to it at the university, and wrote their programs on paper and possibly a card punching typewriter
< 1721160535 864279 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(typing your own program on a card punching typewriter would make it 1970s; in the 1960s typing from the gridded paper on the keyboard was a low-payed female secretary's job, not the programmer's)
< 1721160740 940883 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1721160893 584728 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1721160994 860096 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :To be fair, I've never cottoned to Smalltalk either. For some reason it fails to have any appeal to me.
< 1721161147 287315 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I understand that, I'm just saying that while they are similar in some other ways, Smalltalk is high-level in a way that Forth isn't, eg. heap-allocated instances of classes
< 1721161481 524859 :A_Dragon!A_D@libera/staff/dragon QUIT :Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1721161496 3766 :A_Dragon!A_D@libera/staff/dragon JOIN #esolangs ad :Roy Mustang, The Flame Alchemist
< 1721161522 781722 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't see Forth and Smalltalk as very similar at all, fwiw.  My distates for both of them seem largely unrelated.
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< 1721161641 358749 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1721161653 635175 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*distastes
< 1721161663 202458 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Not a word I usually find myself pluralizing
< 1721161713 695309 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Once, I had access to a university library, and I remember borrowing a Forth book and a book on the Mouse programming language, for weekend reading.
< 1721161862 113974 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I borrowed a Java book from my university library once, very long ago. It was only available in French, but since it was all programming reference documentation there was not much perceptible difference from it being in English.
< 1721161887 876348 :SGautam!uid286066@id-286066.ilkley.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1721162605 497633 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Arguably Forth gets less inconvenient to use if you use one of the locals syntaxes -- for example, mirroring the way you usually put in a stack effect comment in `: foo ( a b -- x ) ... ;`, in Gforth (I think it's an ANS Forth feature?) you can do `: foo { a b -- x } ... ;` and then while the `-- x` bit remains a comment, the first bit will actually pop a and b off the stack and allow you to
< 1721162607 800524 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :refer to them by name.
< 1721162609 800298 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I've been informed that's "doing it wrong", and instead you're supposed to just write so short word definitions that there's no inconvenience to just using the data stack without such modern embellishments.
< 1721162622 610098 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :But it never seems to work out that way in practice.
< 1721162719 271394 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do think it's a little charming how Open Firmware / OpenBoot is a Forth environment.
< 1721162795 815664 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've got more terms for these sequences. I wonder where I should put them on the internet.
< 1721162994 99699 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1721163051 730473 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: I like GML's method. you can use real named local variables, they aren't on the data stack, but the compiler could put them onto the C stack together with return addresses.
< 1721163106 166445 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't necessarily like how GML handles arrays, mind you, just how it handles the data stack, local variables, and true closure lambdas
< 1721163148 830021 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a nice mixture between a stack-based language (like postscript) and a lambda-based language (like Haskell)
> 1721163234 291288 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07The Code of the Seven14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133175&oldid=107278 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+842) 10Introduced an examples section which embraces as its two incipial members a repeating cat program and a Hello, World! printer.
> 1721163364 106066 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07The Code of the Seven14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133176&oldid=133175 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+245) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the The Code of the Seven programming language on GitHub and supplemented two page category tags.
< 1721164535 657818 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I dislike the way that Smalltalk programs don't have a traditional notion of source code – in particular, the program and the data it's operating on tend to get mixed together
< 1721164562 987526 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also I dislike the way the names work for methods that take 2+ arguments – I don't mind the named arguments but I dislike the way the method name and first argument name get mixed together
< 1721164640 942128 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :as for Forth, I never really understood it well enough to develop a dislike of it
< 1721164684 446553 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I can just put the numbers onto the esowiki for now, they're not creative expression anyway so they're not protectable by copyright
< 1721164697 708718 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even though this is technically off-topic because it's not esoteric enough
< 1721164725 357477 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but maybe if I later compute a weird enough variant they do become esoteric
< 1721164732 39245 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you could design an esolang where it matters (fundamentally enough that it isn't just "I have a builtin that prints this long text so I'll post the text on the wiki" – that's one of my more common copyright-related deletions)
< 1721164781 178872 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, but I'm deliberately trying to compute natural sequences here, natural enough that I expect many of them will be on the OEIS
< 1721164809 797460 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :who knows, maybe they'll end up TC :-D
< 1721164832 820268 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have been thinking about Antihydra and friends a bit recently – they can be seen as defining a programming language, and it is not completely obvious that the language is sub-TC
< 1721164847 12925 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although it probably is)
< 1721164900 851550 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can imagine PSPACE-complete or some such smaller class more easily than Turing-complete
< 1721164923 319575 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but even that's a scratch
< 1721164929 792886 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it doesn't seem to be exactly the same as the Conedy computational class, although they seem pretty related
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< 1721165902 178821 :salpynx!~salpynx@101.53.216.116 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1721165984 374547 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It is of course possible to imagine some combination of Forth and Smalltalk where (oh I don't know) words are sent messages consisting of the stack, and they return a new stack, and etc. Working this out is left as an exercise for the reader.
< 1721165991 193947 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :of the logs.
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> 1721166590 754340 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07H14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133177&oldid=133144 5* 03TheCanon2 5* (+28) 10Disambiguated.
< 1721166826 190008 :salpynx!~salpynx@101.53.216.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Thanks for the PMMN article update re. 2 reg PMMN. For Halt, are you saying the program can halt with one of a finite range of (non zero) values in one register?
< 1721166841 82568 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1721166924 520442 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :You can insert a bunch of  if (dec(0)) { inc(1); }  at the end of the main loop to accomplish that, and adjust the operations to add an extra constant correspondingly.
< 1721166944 790300 :salpynx!~salpynx@101.53.216.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :TC on decision problems only is interesting. ... that seems like what I was trying to say but I hadn't clarified it my own head.
< 1721167255 845475 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Turing-completeness is usually defined for decision problems. But computing functions is useful and something Minsky machines can do but this simulation can't, so I thought it should be mentioned.
> 1721167273 304303 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:B jonas/Polyminoes14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133178 5* 03B jonas 5* (+4846) 10Created page with "This page records the result of enumerating polyminoes (polyminos) and various similar animals, modulo different symmetries.    The first types of animals live on the square grid.  A polymino is a set of points on the square grid that is connected throug
< 1721167326 578953 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it's usually spelled poly*o*mino.
< 1721167348 149572 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh... that makes no sense, but I'll include that spelling then
< 1721167376 883290 :salpynx!~salpynx@101.53.216.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wanted to tackle this because I thought there were too many 'because 2 reg MM is TC' statements that overlooked the range of 2 reg MMs and how the construction was quite particular. 
< 1721167450 456476 :salpynx!~salpynx@101.53.216.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm glad it is mentioned now on the article.
< 1721167472 965335 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1721167479 403839 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I've never really questioned the grammar of that... it is a weird term. But it's standard :/
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< 1721167648 688255 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1721167691 468970 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:B jonas/Polyminoes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133179&oldid=133178 5* 03B jonas 5* (+82) 10
> 1721167765 334060 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:B jonas/Polyminoes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133180&oldid=133179 5* 03B jonas 5* (+15) 10
< 1721167814 150527 :salpynx!~salpynx@101.53.216.116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I need to fix the https://esolangs.org/wiki/Minsky_Swap article, I had a 'proof' that corrected a mistake in the spec. I think the spec needs to be corrected to match, since it it's meant to be a proper MM, given the title. 
> 1721167861 939530 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133181&oldid=127208 5* 03TheCanon2 5* (+396) 10Added interpreters in two languages.
< 1721168005 488563 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: if we wanted to know the canonical spelling, we'd probably have to check either Martin Gardner's writings or the Blue book (Nomenclature of Organic Chemistry, IUPAC Recommendations and Preferred Names, by the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry Division VIII Chemical Nomenclature and Structure Representation Division)
< 1721168056 517360 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Gardner presumably writes about polyminos, while the IUPAC gives rules about when to drop vowels from their various numeric prefixes
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> 1721168458 395610 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133182&oldid=133181 5* 03TheCanon2 5* (+100) 10Added a note
< 1721168729 817457 :DHeadshot!~DHeadshot@cpc82623-woki8-2-0-cust106.6-2.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1721169213 118093 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/markovfuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133183 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+636) 10Created page with "markov chain when trained on brainfuck article:  CONFUSED WITH 8BITS NEWLINES THE COMMON IMPLEMENTATIONS OF CORE WAR BRAINFUCK TINYBF AND SO STANDARD SCORING WOULD GIVE IT TO SEPARATE CODE R S BRAINFUCKPC RELAY COMPUTER THE GOAL OF CELL BASED OP
< 1721169444 374951 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh... I guess enumerating the multi versions isn't too interesting because you can get the sequence of counts from the orignal sequence with some linear transformation
< 1721169487 377818 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and some of the other variants that was thinking of with labels on the point are like that too
< 1721169560 406559 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I should probably compute the numbers for 3-d polyminos that fit in a distinguished two block thick plane
< 1721169635 2364 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably just polyhexes and polyamonds first though
< 1721170183 522542 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :here are the small polykings by the way: https://dpaste.com/7FXTBD6JD.txt
< 1721170360 25424 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and here are all the small polyminos: https://dpaste.com/5GBXKHMNJ.txt
< 1721170572 629291 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :btw, Erich Friedman spells it "polyomino", that's at least kind of authoritive
< 1721171118 645931 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, and I should count the animials made of *edges* of the square grid. don't know off hand what fancy name those have.
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< 1721173104 5423 :Noisytoot_!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot NICK :Noisytoot
< 1721173345 607363 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot NICK :Guest911
< 1721173345 858893 :Guest911!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Killed (calcium.libera.chat (Nickname regained by services))
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