00:01:00 <b_jonas> int-e: nice. make sure you test it well when you have the logic.
00:01:14 <b_jonas> how much of the logic do you have already? you say "central" is missing
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00:04:36 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133668&oldid=133667 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+105)
00:04:50 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133669&oldid=133668 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+7) /* quirks */
00:05:04 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133670&oldid=133669 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+0) /* quirks */
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00:34:58 <esolangs> [[User:Gilbert189/Languages in concept]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133671&oldid=133425 * Gilbert189 * (+1883) /* Smalltalk-like version 2 */
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00:46:36 <ais523> <korvo> Trying to decide whether FRACTRAN is an interesting Busy Beaver target or a distraction. Anybody worked with it before? ← it's basically a counter machine and I've worked with those a lot
00:47:07 <ais523> but, Fractran programs generally only behave sensibly when written in factorized form (e.g. instead of 20/9, you would write 2²×5/3²)
00:47:40 <ais523> I suspect The Waterfall Model is a bit more fundamental (because it compiles trivially into Fractran but not vice versa)
00:48:36 <ais523> both languages become TC off pretty small numbers of fractions/waterclocks (7), but at the expense of using large numbers in the triggers
00:49:52 <ais523> <zzo38> Also, I noticed now that the Spiral Rise article links to the nonexistent article called Waterfall Construction Kit ← Waterfall Construction Kit is an esolang I designed to write one program – I then compiled the program by hand, and because I had written the program I needed, the language itself had neither a specification nor an implementation
00:50:02 <korvo> ais523: That makes sense. Well, my followup question applies to Waterfall just as well. What are the sizes of a Waterfall program? Is it the maximum starting clock and the width/height of the matrix?
00:50:04 <ais523> I only designed just enough of the language to make the porgram work
00:50:22 <ais523> korvo: starting clock, trigger entry, matrix size (the matrix is always square)
00:51:06 <ais523> same thing happens with Fractran: starting value, numerator/denominator size, number of fractions (these directly correspond to the Waterfall concepts in my previous line)
00:53:02 <korvo> ais523: Yeah, excellent. Between the two, it sounds like Waterfall would be the better pick for my Busy Beaver doc; I like nats more than rats, I guess.
00:54:31 <esolangs> [[$+-?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133672&oldid=133655 * TheCanon2 * (+197) Added Disan count
01:00:11 <korvo> ...I'm gonna have to write more than a few programs if I want this project to work. I indexed a lot of Brainfuck programs and did not find any that correspond to open maths problems in the right way.
01:00:41 <korvo> I did find a lot of Collatz implementations, which is good, but they're all cycle detectors for a single input. If I want it, I'll probably have to hack it myself.
01:02:30 <korvo> ais523: As long as you're nearby, I know you know tag systems well. It looks like their signature is (nat, set, set), so their size is presumably 3D and using the set cardinalities?
01:04:29 <ais523> so tag systems are based around a skip distance, and a map from symbols to strings: the main relevant "size of the tag system" is based around the number of symbols and the lengths of the strings they map to
01:04:58 <ais523> the skip distance doesn't seem to be a relevant indicator of complexity, in that you need longer strings to make a higher skip distance useful
01:05:26 <ais523> it is probably easiest to fix it at 2; normally I write in 2-tag anyway
01:10:24 <korvo> Hm. So where would complexity be smuggled? Is it string lengths or symbol count?
01:11:23 <ais523> there are TC constructions for both low symbol count (5) and short strings (4)
01:11:56 <ais523> but the strings are incredibly long when the symbol count is 5 (probably in the double- or triple-exponential range), and the short-string construction has 19 symbols
01:13:36 <esolangs> [[$+-?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133673&oldid=133672 * TheCanon2 * (+51) added info about the disan count
01:25:09 <korvo> Okay, thanks. I'll have to think about this more, but it sounds like tag systems could offer another good gauge.
01:35:13 <ais523> korvo: so I haven't managed to implement the halting behaviour yet, but I managed to create the Hydra sequence in The Waterfall Model with 3 waterclocks: [[16,3, 3,3], [ 3,3, 0,6], [ 2,6, 3,0], [ 1,0,15,6]]
01:36:07 <ais523> the values of the first waterclock whenever the third becomes 2 for the first time in a while are 25 46 88 151 235 361 550 844 1285 …
01:36:36 <ais523> for each of those, add 38, divide by 21, and you get 3 4 6 9 13 19 28 42 63 …
01:37:51 <ais523> getting it to halt correctly could be awkward, thogh
01:39:46 <korvo> ais523: Oh wow, that's smaller than I would have expected. Very cool.
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01:49:07 <ais523> this has also made me realise that many simple variations on the Hydra rule (like changing the amount added to 3x when the input is of the form 2x+1) lead to the same sequence of parities, because you can use one rule ro simulate the other via appropriate translation and scaling
01:56:27 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-S)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133674&oldid=131924 * TheCanon2 * (+821) Added Shinda Sakan
01:58:00 <ais523> a useful reference here is https://oeis.org/A061418 which has links to known results about the sequence in question – in particular it seems to have a closed form
01:59:03 <ais523> or, hmm, there's a constant factor which appears hard to calculate
02:00:50 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-S)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133675&oldid=133674 * TheCanon2 * (+41) moved Shinda Sakana
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02:06:04 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (H-M)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133676&oldid=131514 * TheCanon2 * (+345) Added H
02:10:45 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133677&oldid=131927 * TheCanon2 * (+359) Added $! and $+-?
02:10:52 <ais523> apparently Stephen Wolfram did an exhaustive search for nontrivial behaviour in small Minsky machines a while back, and found one that produces the Hydra sequence (although it never halts): https://www.wolframscience.com/nks/p100--register-machines/
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03:10:35 <zzo38> I don't like the new "gift" rule in Magic: the Gathering. I think better would be like "gift--draw a card", "gift--create a Food token", etc, instead. Also, I think it would be better to fix the rules that spell abilities can be used on permanent spells, instead of working differently for permanent spells and other spells.
03:17:36 <ais523> storm works the same way on permanent and non-permanent spells, doesn't it?
03:17:40 <ais523> (although the copies resolve differently)
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03:45:24 <esolangs> [[User:TheCanon2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133678&oldid=133491 * TheCanon2 * (+22) had a new idea
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04:13:18 <esolangs> [[W.W.E]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133679 * TheCanon2 * (+1152) Created page with "'''W.W.E''' (World's Worst Esolang) is a programming language created by [[User:TheCanon2]] that can only do [[Popular problem|popular problems]]. ==Commands== W.W.E programs are read in nibbles. W.W.E has 15 commands. {|class="wikitable" ! Opcode !! Symbol !! Action |
04:37:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck is not turing complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133680&oldid=133651 * None1 * (+178)
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06:49:02 <int-e> b_jonas: "central" is just responsible for controlling the requested shape and the release of items after the shape and color select stage, and delivery to the hub. I've done that with a few buttons for testing.
06:51:20 <int-e> So essentially this https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tree-mam/#hub
06:55:34 <int-e> . o O ( The only air-gapped cloud devices I recognize are balloons, helicopters, and airplances. )
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07:23:34 <esolangs> [[Talk:Chicken]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133681&oldid=114192 * HammyHammerhead * (+51) /* Chicken. */ new section
07:23:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133682&oldid=133576 * Gggfr * (+341) /* Random Observations and Guesses */
07:25:17 <esolangs> [[Talk:Not a brainfuck derivative]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133683&oldid=89057 * HammyHammerhead * (+87) /* Note */ new section
07:25:46 <esolangs> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133684&oldid=133682 * Gggfr * (+23) /* a tape */
07:30:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bring to another]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133685 * Gggfr * (+0) Created blank page
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07:46:02 <esolangs> [[()NEST()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133687&oldid=133686 * Gggfr * (+2) /* examples */
07:46:32 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133688&oldid=133652 * Gggfr * (+12) /* ()NEST() */
07:47:24 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133689&oldid=133688 * Gggfr * (-1) /* REG.TYPE = STR TRUE */
07:47:59 <esolangs> [[REG.TYPE = STR TRUE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133690&oldid=133647 * Gggfr * (-1)
07:52:00 <esolangs> [[MetaGlow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133691&oldid=72959 * Gggfr * (+0)
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08:05:27 <esolangs> [[XUS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133692&oldid=133595 * Gggfr * (+18) /* examples */
08:06:09 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133693&oldid=133689 * Gggfr * (+107)
08:11:01 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Galvandi * New user account
08:28:02 <esolangs> [[Signle]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133694 * Gggfr * (+900) Created page with "'''Signle''' is a esolang with only one function made by [[User:Yayimhere]]. The name comes from a typo of the word single cuz its a single function. == the function == There os a single function. The <code>!</code> function. It tales input as a string. Lets say we pass it
08:29:45 <esolangs> [[Signle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133695&oldid=133694 * Gggfr * (+73)
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09:19:23 <esolangs> [[Signle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133696&oldid=133695 * Gggfr * (+2) /* examples */
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11:11:37 <APic> cpressey: The Sky
11:11:40 <APic> Aaaand the Ceiling
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11:54:24 <esolangs> [[User:HammyHammerhead]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133697&oldid=133575 * HammyHammerhead * (+33) Do I really have to put something here?
11:54:52 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133698&oldid=133573 * HammyHammerhead * (+49) /* hi */ new section
11:55:50 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133699&oldid=133606 * HammyHammerhead * (+4) User link
11:56:41 <esolangs> [[Talk:Assembly]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133700 * PrySigneToFry * (+425) /* WIP */ new section
12:01:51 <esolangs> [[User:HammyHammerhead]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133701&oldid=133697 * HammyHammerhead * (+2) /* My esolangs */ Added a bullet point
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13:05:16 <esolangs> [[Category talk:2024]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133702 * HammyHammerhead * (+0) Created blank page
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14:49:29 <esolangs> [[W.W.E]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133703&oldid=133679 * TheCanon2 * (+2891) Completed the article
15:11:52 <esolangs> [[$+-?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133704&oldid=133673 * TheCanon2 * (+58) redid disan count
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16:51:40 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133705&oldid=133693 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* XUS */ Link
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17:14:50 <esolangs> [[User:HammyHammerhead]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133706&oldid=133701 * HammyHammerhead * (+13) Added section
17:15:03 <esolangs> [[User:HammyHammerhead]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133707&oldid=133706 * HammyHammerhead * (+3) Fixed error
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17:32:06 <esolangs> [[XUS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133708&oldid=133692 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) Category
17:33:52 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133709&oldid=133480 * Unicodes * (+27)
17:35:36 <esolangs> [[User:Unicodes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133710&oldid=133415 * Unicodes * (-354) /* self-repeat */
17:38:53 <esolangs> [[()NEST()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133711&oldid=133687 * Gggfr * (+24)
17:39:45 <esolangs> [[DQ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133712&oldid=127953 * Gggfr * (-5) /* esolang overview */
17:40:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:DQ]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133713 * Gggfr * (+144) Created page with "This begins to look like a [[Minsky machine]] the more i look at it -x-~~~~"
17:42:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:DQ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133714&oldid=133713 * Gggfr * (+49)
17:42:41 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133715&oldid=133543 * Unicodes * (+103)
17:43:08 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133716&oldid=133715 * Unicodes * (+22)
17:45:19 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133717&oldid=133437 * Unicodes * (+55) /* self-repeat */
17:51:38 <esolangs> [[DQ]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133718 * Gggfr * (+537) Created page with "'''DQ''' or NDQ is a extension of [[DQ]] that can simulate a [[minsky machine]]. Its also created by [[User:yayimhere]] === memory === memory is now stored in 2(!) stacks. These works like the registers === additions === These commands has been added {| class="wikitable" |+ Add
17:52:15 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133719&oldid=133670 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+19) /* quirks */
17:52:21 <esolangs> [[DQ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133720&oldid=133718 * Gggfr * (+9)
17:55:36 <esolangs> [[User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133721&oldid=132712 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+33)
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17:59:08 <esolangs> [[$+-?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133722&oldid=133704 * TheCanon2 * (+105) print the latin alphabet
18:05:36 <cpressey> It's a trivial observation but if the only way to create a lambda term in your language is from an AST for a lambda term, then the lambda terms can be assumed to have their variables bound correctly, because your AST->lambda term translation phase is responsible for doing that correctly.
18:10:21 <cpressey> Now, I don't really know how that insight helps me, right now, but there it is. I suppose I need to be more concerned with whether the variable references in the AST make sense. Need to use something like Abstract Binding Trees instead.
18:13:10 <ais523> it's not immediately clear to me what incorrectly bound variables would be
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18:19:37 <korvo> Yeah, this really just raises the binding problem up to the ABT. One still needs a way to designate where the new lambda's variable would go when filled in.
18:20:01 <korvo> So the lambda constructor must take *open* lambda terms and return *closed* terms.
18:20:41 <korvo> And this means that you end up with two flavors of terms, open and closed, all through the AST. The ABT organizes all of this and provides a clean semantics for the substitution that the lambda constructor must perform.
18:21:27 <korvo> Another way of putting this is that we can get UTT with, um, I guess a trivial open term, application of terms, and the standard ABT machinery.
18:21:50 <korvo> *ULC, sheesh. Spending too much time in ##dependent.
18:25:20 <korvo> ...Oh, since ABTs aren't easy to search for: an Abstract Binding Tree is like an AST, but it can have named open holes where other ASTs would go. It can be typed. It's kind of like lambda calculus on AST fragments.
18:25:59 <korvo> A closed ABT is just an AST. An open ABT, plus a map from its open names to ASTs, is also just an AST.
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20:31:24 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133723&oldid=96946 * TheCanon2 * (+715) Added an implementation section since the implementation page doesn't exist
20:35:49 <esolangs> [[PTSL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133724&oldid=66874 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+99) Categories
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20:46:09 <esolangs> [[7 bottles of tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133725&oldid=129775 * TheCanon2 * (+363) Added Python implementation
20:54:09 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/function]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133726&oldid=129770 * TheCanon2 * (+257) Added a section for implementations
21:00:38 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/function]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133727&oldid=133726 * TheCanon2 * (+198) Added other implementation
21:05:50 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/constant]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133728&oldid=129772 * TheCanon2 * (+196) Added an Implementations section
21:07:40 <esolangs> [[Aweosme-complete]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133729&oldid=130284 * TheCanon2 * (+69) info
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22:03:24 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133730&oldid=133523 * TheCanon2 * (+165) Added Sakana and $+-? to the list
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22:20:23 <esolangs> [[Aweosme-complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133731&oldid=133729 * Tommyaweosme * (-69) brainfuck, javascript, every turing-complete language with print capabilities, c++, conways game of life, befunge, and way way more. just python is a very wrong assumption
22:29:20 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck is not turing complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133732&oldid=132819 * Tommyaweosme * (+35) now its not misleading. what do you want next?
22:29:45 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck is not turing complete]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133733&oldid=133732 * Tommyaweosme * (+1) newline spacing
23:15:28 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133734&oldid=133730 * TheCanon2 * (+30) /* wsad */ Added W.W.E to the list in an unconventional way
23:19:34 <esolangs> [[Sakana]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133735&oldid=133640 * TheCanon2 * (+72) Added categories
23:39:17 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133736&oldid=132564 * TheCanon2 * (+87) /* 1 */ Added $+-? to the list in an unconventional manner
23:41:09 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133737&oldid=133736 * TheCanon2 * (+78) /* Headache (lang that compiles to brainfuck) */ Added H with Line Below to the list in an unconventional manner (for my poor internet connection)
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