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00:15:01 <Sgeo> Tempted to use JsBP's really, really nice GUI in front of my VM
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00:52:28 <esolangs> [[Amtu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133897&oldid=133896 * TheCanon2 * (+77) corrected stuff
00:54:38 <esolangs> [[Amtu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133898&oldid=133897 * TheCanon2 * (+120) added notes
00:56:33 <esolangs> [[Yee]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133899 * Tommyaweosme * (+578) Created page with "Yee is an esoteric programming language based off of the yee dinasour meme. == Commands == bah - cell 1 bah bah - cell 2 bah bah bah - cell 3 ... baah - before "Ye..." (if no "bah"s are before it, use cell of last command) B(a=0,h=1) - replaces "baah" and sets cur
01:06:08 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/hjhjhj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133900&oldid=132933 * Tommyaweosme * (+816) added more lore
01:06:55 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133901&oldid=133740 * Tommyaweosme * (+10)
01:14:17 <esolangs> [[Nope. without a quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133902&oldid=133208 * PrySigneToFry * (+428)
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01:21:09 <esolangs> [[fuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133904&oldid=133404 * PrySigneToFry * (+114)
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04:31:39 <esolangs> [[Nope. without a quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133905&oldid=133903 * None1 * (-60) /* C++ */ If you don't make it have no copyright you cannot post it here
04:40:59 <esolangs> [[BrainSplited]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133906 * PrySigneToFry * (+6515) Created page with "{{WIP}} {{AKA|title=AsciiTape}} {{AKA|title=Extended Brainfuck Programming Language(EBPL for short)}} BrainSplited is designed by PSTF and his ChatGPT. It is extended Brainfuck. == My question and ChatGPT's answer == Q1: Can you invent an esoteric program
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10:16:35 <esolangs> [[Talk:ISEW2C]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133910&oldid=133831 * PkmnQ * (+231)
10:23:31 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133911&oldid=133859 * PrySigneToFry * (+19)
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10:28:54 <wib_jonas> does anyone happen to understand why https://www.bigmessowires.com/cpu-in-a-cpld/ says there's an STA imm instruction?
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10:29:58 <wib_jonas> ah wait, https://www.bigmessowires.com/cpu-in-a-cpld/#comment-108669 asks that already and there's a reply
10:32:56 <wib_jonas> apparently it was a mistake. now I wonder if any esoteric language has an STA imm instruction deliberately.
10:34:16 <int-e> hnn it would be funny if it modified the immediate field of the instruction...
10:38:03 <int-e> I'm trying to remember whether box-256 actually did that. I don't think so though... (I do remember writing code with instructions that stored into the same instruction's source immediate values though)
10:43:02 <wib_jonas> int-e: um, what's this? so you had an instruction that had like an absolute target and an immediate source operand, and you directed it to write into the immediate? I think most old CPUs don't have such instructions, while in newer CPUs it's not worth because that would mess up the code cache, but maybe the 386 is right on the boundary, where there
10:43:03 <wib_jonas> are such instructions but no code cache other than a small prefetch queue.
10:44:42 <int-e> yeah this isn't exactly a CPU. http://box-256.com/manual/ ...it has three addressing modes, immediate, address, and indirect address.
10:44:56 <int-e> and also three operand instructions
10:45:50 <int-e> and axtually the opcode table answers my question; there's no encoding for destination immediates
10:47:10 <esolangs> [[ISEW2C]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133912&oldid=99488 * PkmnQ * (-57) Not Turing-complete
10:49:52 <int-e> But the thing that makes this a non-CPU are the threads, which are deterministically interleaved. You can have up to about 60 of them so that's up to 360 memory accesses per cycle. And yes, one thread can poke into an instruction of another thread just before that thread gets its turn and the next thread will execute that modified instruction.
10:50:29 <int-e> It did feel nicely esoteric because of that though.
11:06:42 <wib_jonas> you should make a wiki entry for it
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11:17:21 <esolangs> [[Turtle just want to dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133913&oldid=133881 * Gggfr * (+345)
11:22:14 <esolangs> [[Turtle just want to dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133914&oldid=133913 * Gggfr * (+93)
11:24:01 <esolangs> [[Turtle just want to dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133915&oldid=133914 * Gggfr * (-20)
11:24:49 <esolangs> [[Turtle just want to dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133916&oldid=133915 * Gggfr * (-26)
11:56:57 <int-e> oh I failed to account for memory accesses for maintaining each thread's PC (which is stored in memroy)
11:57:31 <int-e> so with that it's up to 540 memory accesses per cycle
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12:02:59 <int-e> 480. arithmetic is hard
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12:08:02 <wib_jonas> int-e: the description says that the MOV instruction can copy more than one byte, it has an argument for the count of bytes
12:08:44 <int-e> yeah that'll bump it up further
12:09:23 <int-e> two orders of magnitude, so it's becoming even more silly
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12:23:32 <fizzie> Redcode (as in Core War) might allow a destination immediate operand, which would change the value of that immediate field in the same instruction? Not sure if it does, but it feels like the kind of thing it would do. And you do modify a lot of instructions in it.
12:24:22 <wib_jonas> I wonder what it does when the source and destination are overlapping
12:27:45 <fizzie> It had those modifiers as well (.a, .b, .ab, .ba, .f, .x, .i) that I can never really keep straight.
12:29:19 <fizzie> https://corewar.co.uk/karonen/guide.htm#deep_imm seems to imply an "immediate" address is just treated as making the effective address 0 (relative to the instruction), plus of course the number specifying the initial contents of that field.
12:58:54 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133917&oldid=133911 * Gggfr * (+30) /* T */
13:04:43 <esolangs> [[Turtle just want to dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133918&oldid=133916 * Gggfr * (-10)
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14:26:55 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133920&oldid=132641 * PrySigneToFry * (+559) /* A+B Problem in BrainSplited */ new section
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14:28:39 <esolangs> [[Deadfsh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133922&oldid=132646 * PrySigneToFry * (+97)
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15:57:06 <korvo> Hm, attribution is tricky.
15:58:15 <korvo> While documenting Turing machines, I deanonymized int-e, and I didn't realize I'd done it until later. Do we have community guidelines for keeping that sort of thing straight?
15:59:24 <korvo> I figure it's not a big deal at the moment, but also I'm fairly certain I know identities of folks here who *do* want their names obscured, and I'm not sure how to ask "Do you want me to withhold your name?" without embarrassing folks or making them worry that I'm going to dox them.
15:59:29 <int-e> In my case I haven't tried too hard to keep those identities separate. I mean, I don't go out of my way to link them. That's it.
16:00:08 <korvo> int-e: Okay, thank you. Let me know if you change your mind.
16:00:16 <int-e> (Go to @int-e on github and you'll find all you need because the real name is, to my knowledge, unique.)
16:04:36 <int-e> It's kind of the cost of using the same nick in many contexts for soon 3 decades.
16:16:37 <korvo> For sure. I worry because I know one regular here is deliberately anonymous and I may have accidentally learned their identity years ago, and while I want to give credit for maths discoveries, they hide their name *because* of the maths community.
16:17:45 <korvo> I want to be more respectful than e.g. Aaronson and company, who repeatedly slander "code golf addict" by insulting their decision to not add their real name to Aaronson et al's Busy Beaver papers.
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16:18:46 <korvo> (If I were Aaronson, I guess I'd be embarrassed too. Aaronson & Yedida gave a BB(1919) result and code golf addidct improved it to something like BB(20).)
16:21:24 <ais523> wib_jonas: I think lots of CPUs have circuitry that would decode an instruction as STA, imm – but the instruction simply isn't documented because it wouldn't be useful
16:21:29 <korvo> ...At any rate, if anybody has any problems with what I've put in https://mostawesomedude.github.io/bb-gauge/ so far, just DM me and I'll redact or pseudonymize you appropriately.
16:21:40 <ais523> that said, I do not know of any concrete examples, so I might be wrong in this suspicion
16:23:10 <ais523> on another topic, something I realised recently is that the operation "take the limit of the behaviour of a program as some parameter that parametrises its behaviour tends to 0/∞" a) is capable of increasing a language's computational class, and b) appears to do so in a well-defined way for various classes
16:23:43 <ais523> e.g. if you do it on TC programs you get a halting oracle (because you can use it to evaluate the result of a beeping computation, and those can be halting oracles), and you don't seem to get anything more than a halting oracle
16:23:58 <ais523> and I am wondering what other computational classes become under the same operation
16:24:28 <ais523> primitive-recursive trivially becomes Turing-hard; is it necessarily going to stay computable?
16:24:29 <int-e> korvo: Hmm tracing that... not really the same thing, though related; the thing that Aaronsen co-authored diagonalized proofs in ZFC. The 27 state TM looks for counterexamples to Goldbach's conjecture.
16:24:57 <int-e> korvo: And the 1919 state number is by Stefan O'Rear.
16:25:43 <korvo> int-e: Yeah, that sounds right. As you can see, my memory sucks.
16:26:10 <int-e> . o O ( things with holes in them )
16:26:19 <int-e> . o O ( for $100 )
16:27:23 <ais523> oh wow, talk about small worlds – I collaborated with Stefan O'Rear on a NetHack-related project
16:27:26 <int-e> korvo: The fact that the 1919 number was accurate helped.
16:27:45 <int-e> (I searched that article for the string "1919")
16:28:05 <wib_jonas> ais523: sure, but in https://www.bigmessowires.com/cpu-in-a-cpld/ it's the documentation that specifically shows STA imm in the opcode table, and note that the part of the table with bit 2 and 5 are unset goes {SUB abs; SUB imm; ADD abs; ADD imm; CMP abs; CMP imm; LDA abs; LDA imm; STA abs; STA imm; LDX abs; LDX imm; STX abs; undocumented} so it
16:28:05 <wib_jonas> looks like STX imm deliberately doesn't exist
16:28:39 <ais523> and the same person worked on an INTERCAL-related project (a syntax highlighter, maybe?) which allowed whitespace in the middle of keywords, which is an interesting and possibly correct interpretation of the specification
16:28:47 <korvo> int-e: Yeah. So, checking my notes, I think that there's a lot of headroom beneath Laconic not yet accessed.
16:30:02 <korvo> Aaronson & Matiyasevich give RH a test with BB(734) and O'Rear gives BB(916). However, it's well-known folklore that Turing did RH tests by hand using some sort of discrete procedure; it was one of his favorite toy problems for computers.
16:31:04 <korvo> So there must be some BB(n,k) where n and k are small enough for humans to work through the machine. I don't have any well-vouched RH for k≠2 yet, so I can't guess Turing's k.
16:31:10 <ais523> <korvo> While documenting Turing machines, I deanonymized int-e, and I didn't realize I'd done it until later. Do we have community guidelines for keeping that sort of thing straight? ← my rule is "if someone has posted the work online under a given name, use that name – otherwise, ask – although if you're writing a serious paper for a journal or the like, it's often good to ask which name you should use in case someone pseudonymous wants to use their
16:31:18 <int-e> wib_jonas: I did wonder about the absence of STX abs,X ... maybe accessing the X register for both reading and writing is too hard?
16:31:50 <wib_jonas> ais523: limit to 0 can increase computational class => that's believable, because the physicists are saying that quantum mechanism limits how much information you can store in a given volume of space and how much computation you can do with a given amount of energy, while in classical physics the information and computation are unlimited
16:32:16 <korvo> ais523: That makes sense. I've tried to only use the names that each author has attached to their work. For example, I think I could go look up who LittlePeng9 is, but I want to reuse their handle so that future searchers will find Googology.
16:33:04 <ais523> I gave two different names for my Netrunner Turing-completeness proof, because I normally use different usernames in the Netrunner and Turing-completeness communities
16:33:11 <ais523> so that I would be recognised either way
16:33:28 <wib_jonas> int-e: the absence of STX abs,X => I assume that's just not very useful, it's not in BMOW 1 either, I think this might be inherited from 6502 which inspired both. either that, or the CPX instructions make it so the opcode wouldn't be decoded correctly.
16:34:57 <wib_jonas> "allowed whitespace in the middle of keywords" => I always assumed INTERCAL allowed that, since the FORTRANs and BASICs of the period did too
16:35:36 <ais523> what, really? I thought the BASICs of the era didn't really have source code, the editor stored an AST directly
16:35:49 <ais523> although I guess then it's a question about whether the editor allowed whitespace inside keywords
16:36:30 <int-e> wib_jonas: Oh, here: http://www.bigmessowires.com/2010/04/18/tiny-cpu-architecture/ ...there's no feedback from X to itself without increment or decreement.
16:38:37 <int-e> But it /could/ do post-increment and post-decrement addressing with abs,X if instruction decoding supported it.
16:38:53 <ais523> korvo: re: your Busy Beaver Gauge, I think this is relevant (although not directly relevant): https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/97004/does-the-code-terminate/
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16:41:03 <korvo> ais523: Yes, exactly. I had to gather a few examples before I could even sketch the point, but I think you see it now.
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16:41:32 <korvo> It will be quite funny if it turns out that everything fits into BB(8,2). But even in that case, I think they'll still be smeared out in BLC or BF.
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16:58:03 <wib_jonas> ais523: afaiu the editors store the text of each source line, except for the line number, close to verbatim, except they replace keywords with abbreviated versions, though there are also older basics where you even have to input the keywords in a different way than from a sequence of letters, they just show up as the pretty letter name on screen as
16:58:04 <wib_jonas> you edit. I don't think they store an AST that's reordered compared to the source code.
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17:05:32 <esolangs> [[4Head/AuthorImplementation.c]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133924&oldid=117447 * 1hals * (-43) use standard isdigit
17:18:35 <esolangs> [[Minimized BF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133925&oldid=133401 * TheCanon2 * (+1029) Added an interpreter
17:21:33 <ais523> apparently fungot is not here
17:27:27 <int-e> I wanted input on making a zero-gravity guillotine. I didn't want to bother a human about it ;-)
17:30:44 <ais523> the guillotines used for cutting paper are normally manually operated, I think (i.e. a human rather than gravity pushes down on the blade)
17:31:08 <esolangs> [[Ruck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133926&oldid=133834 * TheCanon2 * (+1168) Added implementation
17:33:39 <esolangs> [[Ruck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133927&oldid=133926 * TheCanon2 * (-7) rewrote
17:35:34 <int-e> beheading paper sounds a bit weird... but I guess it'll work for letter heads
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18:50:45 <b_jonas> int-e: hmm, someone mentioned recently that they have built a guillotine (not necessarily zero gravity) as some hobby thing. I'd direct you to them but I don't recall who it was. the internet is a strange place.
19:03:51 <int-e> Hmm I saw guillotines mentioned here: https://aus.social/@Unixbigot/112832456291732131
19:04:07 <int-e> But that's fictional.
19:07:00 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133928&oldid=133917 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* T */ Alphabetise
19:13:07 <esolangs> [[User:TheCanon2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133929&oldid=133878 * TheCanon2 * (+25) Added Ruckfish
19:17:35 <esolangs> [[(,!)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133930&oldid=133376 * Gggfr * (+28)
19:18:54 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133931&oldid=133826 * HammyHammerhead * (+81) /* Commands */
19:40:24 <esolangs> [[Ruckfish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=133932 * TheCanon2 * (+1742) Created the article
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20:12:53 <zzo38> I think 6502 has a "store immediate" instruction that does not actually work; the opcode that should mean "store immediate" instead reads its operand and ignores it
20:41:33 <fizzie> Ugh. This time fungot had reconnected, but now it doesn't obey me because my username does *not* have the ~ in it.
20:41:45 <fizzie> I added it in the configuration when there was that identd problem again.
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20:58:14 <esolangs> [[Pylongolf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133933&oldid=50185 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+138) Waybacks, categories
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21:22:08 <esolangs> [[Ruckfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133934&oldid=133932 * TheCanon2 * (+1797) Completed the article.
21:23:00 <esolangs> [[User:TheCanon2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133935&oldid=133929 * TheCanon2 * (-1) changed the number
21:30:56 <esolangs> [[Ruckfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133936&oldid=133934 * TheCanon2 * (+131) added details
21:31:38 <esolangs> [[Ruckfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133937&oldid=133936 * TheCanon2 * (+1) moved a detail
21:58:56 <esolangs> [[Ruckfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133938&oldid=133937 * TheCanon2 * (+384) Articlised my name and added a truth machine
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23:01:46 <esolangs> [[Scratcholang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133939&oldid=123187 * TheCanon2 * (-263) Cleaned the article and added XKCD random number
23:09:19 <esolangs> [[IBC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=133940&oldid=133164 * TheCanon2 * (+123) added NNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN