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01:40:51 <korvo> BLC lengths are now diagrammed: https://mostawesomedude.github.io/bb-gauge/blc-length.html I'm surprised to see that the search for a period-32 Laver table is slightly shorter than any interpreter I've documented. I suppose that this approach is already paying off by making such facts visible.
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04:41:09 <esolangs> [[Aheui]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135624&oldid=120652 * ProjectEuler * (-147)
04:45:09 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135625&oldid=135013 * ProjectEuler * (+44) /* Aheui */ new section
04:46:06 <esolangs> [[Aheui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135626&oldid=135624 * ProjectEuler * (+51) /* A+B Problem */ new section
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11:34:28 <esolangs> [[Wireless Coolbeans]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135628 * Unname4798 * (+658) Created page with "Wireless Coolbeans is an esolang made by Unname4798. == Help == Signals can move in air in in 4 directions: <pre> ^ up > right v down < left </pre> They get reflected 90 degrees by /'s and \'s. / turns the signal right, while \ turns the signal left: <pre>
11:35:04 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135629&oldid=135153 * Unname4798 * (+39) add Wireless Coolbeans
11:38:39 <esolangs> [[Wireless Coolbeans]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135630&oldid=135628 * Unname4798 * (+201)
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11:46:58 <esolangs> [[Wireless Coolbeans]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135634&oldid=135633 * Unname4798 * (+4)
11:52:13 <esolangs> [[Old Branjunk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135635&oldid=135622 * Ais523 * (+685) don't hide the User: on links to userspace
11:52:32 <esolangs> [[Wireless Coolbeans]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135636&oldid=135634 * Unname4798 * (-3)
11:53:12 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135637&oldid=135447 * Ais523 * (+51)
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11:53:41 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135639&oldid=135638 * Ais523 * (-88) clear sandbox after my tests
11:53:42 <esolangs> [[Wireless Coolbeans]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135640&oldid=135636 * Unname4798 * (+31)
11:54:03 <esolangs> [[Wireless Coolbeans]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135641&oldid=135640 * Unname4798 * (+2)
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11:57:49 <esolangs> [[Wireless Coolbeans]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135643&oldid=135642 * Unname4798 * (+105)
11:58:51 <esolangs> [[Wireless Coolbeans]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135644&oldid=135643 * Unname4798 * (+9)
12:07:18 <esolangs> [[C]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135645&oldid=125961 * MathigonDec * (+14)
12:07:38 <esolangs> [[B sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135646&oldid=125356 * MathigonDec * (+4)
12:07:55 <esolangs> [[CFUCK]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135647&oldid=118472 * MathigonDec * (+4) Cross-reference
12:08:07 <esolangs> [[C++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135648&oldid=125902 * MathigonDec * (+14)
12:09:26 <esolangs> [[MediaWiki:Abusefilter-piped-link-to-userspace]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135649 * Ais523 * (+609) a message warning people about piping links to userspace
12:12:57 <esolangs> [[MediaWiki:Abusefilter-sandbox-clean-reminder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135650&oldid=130894 * Ais523 * (+355) put this in a colored box, like with the other edit filter warnings
12:13:04 <esolangs> [[Rock paper scissors]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135651 * Yayimhere * (+1247) Created page with "'''Rock paper scissors''' or '''RPS''' is a 2d esolang where there are pointers that play rock paper scissors with each other. yea thats it. it was create by [[User:Yayimhere]] == syntax == === pointers === RPS uses [[Befunge]] arrows: >V ^< and this is
12:15:11 <esolangs> [[Rock paper scissors]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135652&oldid=135651 * Yayimhere * (-2) /* other */
12:17:06 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135653&oldid=135552 * Ais523 non-admin * (+294) test to make sure this still works
12:20:31 <esolangs> [[MediaWiki:Abusefilter-sandbox-clean-reminder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135654&oldid=135650 * Ais523 * (+2) fix discussion of the preview apparently it doesn't show when an edit is caught by the filter
12:21:04 <esolangs> [[Rock paper scissors]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135655&oldid=135652 * Yayimhere * (+154) /* other */
12:24:15 <esolangs> [[Rock paper scissors]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135656&oldid=135655 * Yayimhere * (+1547)
12:27:01 <ais523> I realised that there's another busy-beaver-like problem that is interesting on smaller Turing machines: try to produce a halting oracle for (Turing machine, state of tape) pairs
12:27:10 <ais523> what's the simplest Turing machine for which we can't produce an oracle?
12:32:59 <esolangs> [[Rock paper scissors]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135657&oldid=135656 * Yayimhere * (+128)
12:33:36 <esolangs> [[Violation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135658&oldid=135627 * Tommyaweosme * (+192) deleting this is like deleting half of [[errorfuck]]
12:34:44 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135659&oldid=135566 * Yayimhere * (+67)
12:35:18 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135660&oldid=135507 * Tommyaweosme * (+281)
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12:46:45 <ais523> korvo: correction to your busy beaver gauge "future directions": it's known that there are universal tag machines with maximum word length 3 because any tag machine can be compiled to have maximum word length 3 by adding extra symbols
12:47:31 <ais523> (and maximum word length 2 is known to not be universal because it has bounded memory)
12:48:59 <ais523> actually I'm not entirely sure how the compilation to word length 3 works, maybe it isn't general, but it probably is
12:49:04 <ais523> I do know it's been proven universal
12:49:18 <ais523> 4 is much much easier to work with, though
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13:05:18 <b_jonas> ais523: “a halting oracle for (Turing machine, state of tape) pairs” => I don't understand this. what's the input to this oracle?
13:06:21 <esolangs> [[Mornington Crescent]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135661&oldid=76618 * MathigonDec * (+32)
13:08:36 <esolangs> [[Sclipting]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135662&oldid=133360 * MathigonDec * (+32)
13:09:22 <esolangs> [[Deoxyribose]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135663 * MathigonDec * (+284) Created page with "'''Deoxyribose''' is a DNA-themed language created by "georgewatson" on Github. Input is not interactive, while output is. == See also == * [[DNA]] * [[DNA-Sharp|DNA#]] * [[Codon]] [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:Stack-based]] [[Category:Non-interactive IO]]
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13:21:16 <esolangs> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135664&oldid=118305 * MathigonDec * (+27) /* C++ */ new section
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13:26:41 <esolangs> [[Codd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135666&oldid=64181 * MathigonDec * (+77)
13:27:50 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Codd * New user account
13:28:31 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135667&oldid=135653 * Codd * (+156)
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14:05:06 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135669&oldid=135659 * Yayimhere * (-11) /* Rock paper scissors */
14:23:39 <ais523> <b_jonas> ais523: “a halting oracle for (Turing machine, state of tape) pairs” => I don't understand this. what's the input to this oracle? ← a Turing machine and a state/tape pair, with a finitely initialised tape
14:26:29 <ais523> hmm, this doesn't really fit anywhere, so I'm going to put it in the #esoteric logs: http://matwbn.icm.edu.pl/ksiazki/aa/aa70/aa7023.pdf proves a statement about the sequence x_n = a*(b**n) with real a and rational b, which I think proves something about the behaviour of consistent Collatz sequences like Hydra and Antihydra
14:26:44 <ais523> but unfortunately the result is too weak to be of that much use
14:26:54 <esolangs> [[Fun Video Game]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135670&oldid=135303 * Qawtykit * (+211) added akdrfsbathnede knem
14:27:32 <esolangs> [[Fun Video Game]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135671&oldid=135670 * Qawtykit * (+2)
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14:34:31 <esolangs> [[Rock paper scissors]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135674&oldid=135673 * Yayimhere * (-11)
14:36:59 <esolangs> [[Akdrfsbathnede knem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135675&oldid=135454 * Qawtykit * (+204) Finished Fun Video Game, added computational class section
14:39:23 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135676&oldid=135584 * Qawtykit * (+26) added akdrfsbathnede knem
14:40:56 <esolangs> [[Akdrfsbathnede knem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135677&oldid=135675 * Qawtykit * (+116)
14:45:58 <b_jonas> ok, but then I don't understand the question “what's the simplest Turing machine for which we can't produce an oracle” since the Turing machine is part of the input
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14:48:45 <esolangs> [[EDE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135679&oldid=135678 * Tommyaweosme * (-2) /* Truth machine interpreter */
14:48:54 <esolangs> [[EDE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135680&oldid=135679 * Tommyaweosme * (+0) /* Truth machine interpreter */
14:52:22 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135681&oldid=135669 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Implementations */ Sort
14:53:02 <esolangs> [[Rock paper scissors]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135682&oldid=135674 * Yayimhere * (+25)
14:53:51 <esolangs> [[RPS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135683 * Yayimhere * (+33) Redirected page to [[Rock paper scissors]]
14:54:09 <esolangs> [[EDE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135684&oldid=135680 * Tommyaweosme * (+150)
14:58:39 <ais523> b_jonas: oh, I mean to pick a different oracle for each specific Turing machine
14:58:42 <ais523> so the input is just the state of the tape
14:59:15 <esolangs> [[Rock paper scissors]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135685&oldid=135682 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+126) Categories
15:02:07 <esolangs> [[Violation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135686&oldid=135658 * Unname4798 * (-160) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/135658|135658]] by [[Special:Contributions/Tommyaweosme|Tommyaweosme]] ([[User talk:Tommyaweosme|talk]]) (this program always violates rules)
15:02:26 <esolangs> [[Violation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135687&oldid=135686 * Unname4798 * (+6)
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15:07:02 <b_jonas> ok, that's better. and are you asking for the simplest Turing-machine for which there's no computable halting test, or for which we humans can't find one?
15:08:54 <ais523> I guess the former is an interesting problem too, but it's mostly just theoretical because it's hard to prove that an oracle doesn't exist
15:10:26 <esolangs> [[EDE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135688&oldid=135684 * Unname4798 * (+202) add my-new-esolang.txt interpreter
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15:20:47 <esolangs> [[EDE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135698&oldid=135697 * Unname4798 * (+4)
15:21:53 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, that reminds me of a question about Turing-machines that came up some days ago. I know if you have a Turing-machine, you can always translate it to one that uses just two tape symbols, by making the number of states much larger as a tradeoff. But is there an easy reduction the other way, translating to a Turing-machine with just two states but a large number of symbols? Or some other small
15:23:54 <int-e> ais523: BLC does that fairly naturally: you can ask for prefixes for which halting cannot be determined (each bit stream defines a lambda term, and the rest of the stream is passed as an argument; for a given prefix you can distinguish between halting, non-halting, and the program using input beyond the prefix)
15:24:29 <b_jonas> presumably it's possible because there are known small turing machines that are universal, so you interpret through them, but I wonder if there's an easier reduction
15:25:12 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135699&oldid=135502 * Unname4798 * (+25)
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15:25:57 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135701&oldid=135700 * Unname4798 * (+32)
15:27:39 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135702&oldid=135701 * Unname4798 * (+45)
15:28:51 <ais523> b_jonas: I think there is a fairly easy reduction: the basic idea is to have all the symbols on the tape (except for the untouched area at the sides) represent a (state, symbol) pair (with the state being the same for all of them), plus also representing whether the tape head is to the left or right of the cell (allowing you to determine which direction it last moved in) – the two states of the new Turing machine then become "cycle the state of the entire
15:28:53 <ais523> tape" and "act normally", and you can use extra symbols to remember what you were doing as you cycle the state of the entire tape
15:30:06 <ais523> that's basically what I did to implement Grill Tag in a Turing machine
15:31:02 <int-e> in fact, most of the ape will just remember a symbol and whether the head is to the left or right, but there'll usually be a pair of symbols that each hold a part of a state being copied from one to the next one bit at a time
15:31:04 <ais523> you probably need to maintain one buffer cell between the touched and untouched area of the tape to make it work, but it doesn't seem too conceptually difficult
15:31:35 <ais523> int-e: oh, I think that's a different construction from mine, it probably also works though
15:32:31 <int-e> and I guess you could even have a protocol where the first bit signals whether the head is moving head or right so most of the tape can just carry plain symbols
15:33:34 <ais523> ah, I see – we have "idle symbols" that represent the tape of the original machine, and the current symbol which represents a symbol/state pair; when we move off it we move onto an idle symbol and first tell it whether it's receiving information from the left or right, then which state it should be in
15:34:16 <ais523> I like that construction, it's more efficient than mine in terms of execution time
15:34:42 <ais523> and I think it uses fewer symbols, too
15:37:17 <ais523> oh, anyway, I had an idea for a Turing machine variant a while ago: there is only the one state, but tape elements change from being near the tape pointer (i.e. either under it or adjacent to it) rather than only when the pointer is pointing to them
15:37:54 <ais523> I didn't fix the details of exactly how it worked – probably you have a separate map for "under" and "near"
15:38:05 <ais523> I don't know whether or not this can be TC
15:38:11 <int-e> hmm. a 1D CA with "focus"?
15:39:09 <ais523> cells don't read the adjacent cell to see how to change, just the location of the tape head
15:39:13 <int-e> I guess you'll have to say how the neighbouring states change.
15:39:50 <int-e> So you have a few symbol -> symbol maps plus a symbol -> direction map?
15:42:02 <int-e> that's awkward but surely it must be TC if you can modify to both sides of the head :P
15:42:11 <ais523> I think you might be able to set up a protocol where if you alternate between sending the tape head left and right, the adjacent cells cycle their state and push the tape head back each time, and sending it the same direction twice is how you "officially" move onto the next cell
15:42:49 <int-e> (the awkward bit is that any communication between cells must be realized through a left/right dance)
15:43:36 <ais523> if that turns out to be TC, the followup question is, what if only one side can detect a nearby tape head? I feel like that might be able to do AORS but am not sure
15:49:33 <ais523> ooh, I think it's TC like this: have a protocol where if you immediately send the tape head back the way it came, it always bounces, then you can communicate to the next cell in the direction it was moving via bouncing backwards a given number of times
15:49:54 <ais523> and if you want to communicate back the way you came, communicate "please bounce me" to the cell beyond and then bounce off it
15:50:19 <ais523> this will lead to some amount of spurious "nearby" signals to the cells beyond the cells you're bouncing from – but they can remember how many times they were bounced on and compensate for it
15:51:27 <ais523> actually I guess this would be a lot more elegant if it had "don't move" as an option in addition to left and right
15:51:35 <ais523> even if it isn't strictly required
15:52:04 <int-e> Ah each cell can detect whether the head is coming from the left or right even if it can only peek to one side.
15:52:30 <ais523> yes, it can record the direction in which the head last moved away from that cell
15:52:58 <ais523> because the head can't teleport, it has to arrive back on the same side
15:54:20 <ais523> oh, with a "don't move" option and affecting only the cell on one side, you can do AORS directly, can't you? just stay in place once to show oddness and don't do that to show evenness
15:55:37 <ais523> in fact it is much more powerful than AORS because you can communicate both the total parity of all the cells so far, and the parity of the cell immediately to the left
15:56:06 <ais523> which probably is enough power to dodge the exponential slowdown
15:57:08 <int-e> I'm not sure how you deal with expanding rules in AORS
15:57:50 <ais523> is there enough power for 2C?
15:58:14 <esolangs> [[0010]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135703 * Yayimhere * (+308) Created page with "'''0010''' is a esolang with 3 commands, created by [[User:Yayimhere]] === syntax === 0010 has these 3 commands: * <code>1</code> flip the end of the code. if its # however it will go back ten chars * <code>0</code> add the following command to the end of the code * <code
15:58:46 <ais523> yep, I think 2C is doable
16:00:04 <esolangs> [[0010]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135704&oldid=135703 * Yayimhere * (-308) Blanked the page
16:01:15 <esolangs> [[0134]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135705 * Yayimhere * (+398) Created page with "'''0134''' is a esolang with 4 commands, created by [[User:Yayimhere]] === syntax === 0010 has these 4 commands: * <code>1</code> flip the end of the code. * <code>0</code> add the following command to the end of the code * <code>3</code> skip the following command * <cod
16:06:12 <esolangs> [[EDE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135706&oldid=135698 * Tommyaweosme * (+8) /* my-new-esolang.txt interpreter */ fixed
16:06:28 <esolangs> [[0134]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135707&oldid=135705 * Unname4798 * (+0)
16:06:52 <ais523> also, I just realised that the two-sided version can trivially emulate the one-sided version by just not reacting if the pointer last moved away in a particular direction
16:08:10 <HackEso> [U+003E GREATER-THAN SIGN]
16:08:17 <ais523> ah good, I thought those were consecutive but wanted to make sure
16:08:40 <int-e> You can probably control spurious upodates by using blocks of multiple cells to simulate a single cell of something-like-a-TM.
16:10:01 <esolangs> [[0134]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135708&oldid=135707 * Yayimhere * (+286)
16:10:35 <esolangs> [[EDE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135709&oldid=135706 * Unname4798 * (-1) fix my-new-esolang.txt interpreter
16:11:08 <int-e> . o O ( up-oh!-dates? )
16:12:56 <esolangs> [[0134]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135710&oldid=135708 * Unname4798 * (+0) This esolang is already called 0134.
16:14:52 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135711&oldid=135396 * Ractangle * (+12) /* Esolangs */
16:15:56 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135712&oldid=135711 * Ractangle * (+17) /* Esolangs */
16:20:56 <ais523> `unicode LOWERCASE GREEK LETTER SIGMA
16:21:28 <ais523> `unicode GREEK SMALL LETTER SIGMA
16:21:34 <ais523> seriously, Unicode Consortium, "small"?
16:27:41 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135713&oldid=135575 * Ractangle * (+27) /* Errors */
16:28:10 <esolangs> [[0134]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135714&oldid=135710 * Yayimhere * (+630)
16:30:37 <esolangs> [[0134]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135715&oldid=135714 * Yayimhere * (+118) /* computational class */
16:32:17 <esolangs> [[0134]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135716&oldid=135715 * Unname4798 * (+0) correct number of commands
16:40:34 <ais523> `unicode GREEK SMALL LETTER TAU
17:04:44 <esolangs> [[EDE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135717&oldid=135709 * Tommyaweosme * (-7) minimalization
17:07:26 <esolangs> [[Near-Turing machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135718 * Ais523 * (+7100) a Turing-machine-like thing I've been thinking about recently
17:08:34 <esolangs> [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135719&oldid=126376 * Ais523 * (+54) +[[Near-Turing machine]]
17:11:37 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135720&oldid=135713 * Ractangle * (+50) /* Errors */
17:13:55 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135721&oldid=135720 * Ractangle * (+174) /* Cat program */
17:15:03 <int-e> ais523: okay, baby steps for me. Here's something explicit for the case of +/-1 context length and optional moves: https://paste.debian.net/1326181/ ...the idea is that cells contain two "glue" values that are synchronized between cells which are used to communicate the successor state
17:15:59 <int-e> why am I writing ([ ... ]). Oh well.
17:17:59 <int-e> but maybe that's clumsy
17:23:32 <korvo> ais523: Your oracle problem is, to me, very similar to the problem of initial tape setups: what's the minimum number of *additional* states required to augment a TM with a given initial tape? It would be a very good natural BB setup, although I think it's on the same level of difficulty as BB itself.
17:24:29 <int-e> I see. Yeah that looks like a great target for the one-sided context case. Couplet 2C in particular.
17:26:13 <int-e> you'll have to mark the unused part of the tape but that's pretty normal
17:28:50 <b_jonas> ais523: actually I think your question is equivalent to asking, what's the simplest machine for which there's an input which doesn't halt but that's not provable. if there's no such state then the universal algorithm that just brute force looks for proofs that the machine (on the input starting state) halts or doesn't halt works as the oracle.
17:29:07 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135722&oldid=135721 * Ractangle * (+57) /* Truth-machine */
17:30:31 <int-e> b_jonas: there's a spectrum there... I mean what if the input needs to be super long and complicated?
17:32:37 <b_jonas> hmm, I'm not entirely sure of this equivalence.
17:32:46 <b_jonas> int-e: why is that a problem?
17:33:18 <b_jonas> you don't need to present the input explicitly
17:33:35 <korvo> There should be a Kolmogorov cutoff, and that should establish the non-triviality of the oracle (since the lookup table it would store would then not be wholly computable, but only computable up to the cutoff.)
17:33:36 <int-e> b_jonas: Well the input is part of the problem in ais523's version so it'd be measured by its simplicity metric.
17:34:10 <int-e> b_jonas: While you only measure the TM, so you made a narrower choice. It's not a problem, but it is a difference.
17:34:58 <int-e> I'm sure Kolmogorov and Chaitin would look at a joint encoding of TM and initial tape for this.
17:38:52 <korvo> You gotta. For what if the initial tape is easy to generate from the TM's existing states? In some sense, that initial tape is only hard to encode when its information is not closely related to the computation being performed.
17:39:42 <korvo> For example, Collatz is sensitive to powers of two and three; you can deliberately wind it up by giving it lots of powers of two. But nothing in Collatz *multiplies* by two; it's all division by two, so such an initial tape is more Kolmogorov-expensive than others.
17:40:00 <int-e> if it's easy to generate it should be encoded as a program :)
17:40:17 <int-e> which is really what Kolmogorov complexity is all about
17:40:40 <b_jonas> as for my question for two-state turing machines, I think I know the simple answer
17:41:17 <b_jonas> give me a moment, I'm reading the backlog for what you answered
17:41:34 <b_jonas> ok, I'm not just duplicating the answer
17:42:25 <int-e> I have a weakness for directly simulating Turing machines.
17:42:53 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135723&oldid=135722 * Ractangle * (+352)
17:49:21 <b_jonas> so you have a turing machine that you want to simulate. the simulating machine simulates each cell on the old tape with the corresponding one cell on the new tape. the idea is to write to the tape the simulated state one bit by one bit, taking two steps for each of those bits, carrying the bit in the state of your simulating machine. a tape call is either inert, or you're moving away from it in the
17:49:27 <b_jonas> simulated machine, or you're moving to it in the simulated machine, or it's just on the boundary when you just did the last thing to move onto it and you can start the next simualted move. the tape symbol always stores at least the simulated tape symbol. if you're moving away from that tape cell then it stores the old state of the simulated machine plus how many bits you've copied so far. if you're
17:49:33 <b_jonas> moving onto the cell then it stores an incomplete prefix of the binary encoding of the new state of the simulated machine.
17:49:58 <b_jonas> (I probably should have been able to solve this without asking.)
17:50:45 <int-e> Hmm that sounds very similar to what I did.
17:52:13 <b_jonas> oh yeah, the new tape cell also has to store the direction you're moving in the simulated machine.
17:52:15 <int-e> You can optimize a bit (but it's just a small constant factor on the number of symbols); instead of storing the old state, store what remains to be copied of the new state plus the direction you're copying to.
18:00:58 <int-e> oh you don't even need the direction bit there; you can once again communicate that in the state
18:01:23 <int-e> (as usual there are many small tweaks)
18:02:58 <b_jonas> ais523 “seriously, Unicode Consortium, ‘small’?” => it's "small" because "lower case" is an anachronistic name of the "carriage return" kind, it was named that for pre-digital typography, and even of a mostly obsolete version of that that required a lot of manual labor, where instances of the individual glyph template (types) for printing were stored in an open top box with lots of compartments,
18:03:04 <b_jonas> usually one compartment for each possible glyph, and the typesetter person manually hunted for each glyph in sequence to assemble to a page. "upper case" and "lower case" were called that because the lower case letters were in compartments closer to the typesetter person, so lower, since the box is slanted. when unicode was invented, this form of typesetting was mostly obsolete anyway in favor of
18:03:10 <b_jonas> machines that automated most of the job of the typesetter, and it was clear enough that if unicode (and by extension digital computers for character data) would be successful then that kind of typesetting will be completely obsolete. it doesn't help that the traditional typesetting also involved poisoning the typesetter with lead.
18:03:56 <b_jonas> int-e: I think you need the direction bit in the simulated cell that you're moving to, since the direction is decided by the tape symbol and old state of the cell you're moving away from.
18:04:27 <b_jonas> also "small" is just shorter than "lower case"
18:04:47 <b_jonas> or "lowercase" as you called it
18:04:50 <esolangs> [[Near-Turing machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135724&oldid=135718 * Ais523 * (+404) /* Computational class */ explain the startup state
18:05:27 <int-e> But "fifth" and "filth" are tall words despite being all lower case :P
18:05:27 <ais523> "uppercase" and "lowercase" are indeed anachronisms, but lowercase letters are not always small
18:05:37 <ais523> so that name is a misdescription
18:06:14 <ais523> hmm, what direction does the shift button move the levers in typewriters?
18:06:30 <ais523> it wouldn't surprise me if it were upwards, so maybe typewriters have an effective upper case and lower case too
18:08:27 <int-e> well on the mechanical typewriter I once played with, the levers shifted upwards so the lower row would be aligned with the ribbon
18:09:06 <b_jonas> ais523: admittedly there are a few exceptions like þ and f and ф where the lowercase letter might be larger than the uppercase in some fonts, but generally the lowercase is smaller than the uppercase so I think that's a fine name
18:09:08 <int-e> so there are quite a few changes of directions :)
18:11:00 <int-e> (lifting the levers means that gravity can push them down when you release the shift key)
18:12:07 <int-e> (neither of these words properly describes sliding down the gravity well :P)
18:14:10 <b_jonas> maybe it has a lower and upper, but I don't think any of those are called "case"
18:14:35 <int-e> the "case" is of course a proper type setting thing
18:15:10 <int-e> also I got lost in the changes of directions myself
18:15:28 <int-e> the lower case letters are the default and thus end up on top in the type writer
18:17:40 <ais523> hmm, the lowercase letters get struck when the case is in its low position, and the uppercase letters get struck when the case is in its high position, but that means that the lowercase letters are physically above the uppercase letters
18:19:00 <int-e> It's funny how I said how easy it is to get lost without realizing that I was lost...
18:19:42 <ais523> it crosses my mind that incremental near-Turing machines might be interesting for busy beaver experiments, as a) they have few symmetries, so you don't have to try hard to eliminate redundant programs, b) they only have one dimension of complexity (the number of states)
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18:22:34 <int-e> why does YT sometimes randomly give me a layout with the comments to the right...
19:18:01 <b_jonas> int-e: does it depend only on (1) whether the video is a shorts, (2) on the aspect ratio of the video, (3) whether the video is a livestream with comments enabled?
19:18:13 <b_jonas> also whether you're in theater mode and the browser window size
19:18:59 <int-e> b_jonas: I reloaded and got the other layout with recommended videos on the right
19:19:30 <int-e> and it's an ordinary on demand video, long, 16:9, with comments enabled
19:27:50 <b_jonas> int-e: for me on a small proportion of random videos youtube is broken in a way where it starts to play the video but stops after a few minutes, can continue if I reload the page but always stops playing soon again. which videos they are seems to be consistent. might be related to ISP, Firefox, plugins and settings, google account etc. I don't know
19:29:11 <int-e> Maybe related to them inserting ads mid-stream? Who knows.
19:29:50 <int-e> I have the occasional experience that a video won't start at all (or, rather, play for half a second and stop). Which is fixable by reloading.
19:30:31 <int-e> at some point they'll figure out how to force ads on me and I'll stop using the service :P
19:31:31 <int-e> This shapez.io blueprint speedrun is so refined... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qh9zRg12Tg ...note how he builds some extra stuff so that the final two shapes finish around the same time.
19:31:44 <int-e> or she, shouldn't assume
19:33:00 <b_jonas> int-e: is that set seed or unseen random seed?
19:33:23 <b_jonas> probably doesn't change too much for just blueprint%
19:34:14 <b_jonas> seed only matters for finding enough nice shapes containing star or windmill for when you want to set up lots of production, like for a MAM
19:34:46 <int-e> set seed I think since he loads a savegame
19:36:11 <int-e> they delete a save game and then click "new game" so random seed
19:39:04 <b_jonas> wow. that speedrun builds a short tunnel under the hub at one point.
19:39:36 <b_jonas> I know in theory that in just a blueprint% speedrun you won't be using all 16 inputs of the hub, but it still looks so wrong
20:00:20 <esolangs> [[Old Branjunk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135725&oldid=135635 * Ractangle * (-685) oh
20:03:47 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135726&oldid=135723 * Ractangle * (+13) /* 99 bottles of beer */
20:04:19 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135727&oldid=135726 * Ractangle * (-6) /* Commands */
20:41:42 <esolangs> [[Meta-meta-meta-meta-meta]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135728 * Tommyaweosme * (+470) Created page with "== layers == === layer 1 === state * alive become dead on 4 alive become dead on 7 dead state dead become alive on 3 alive and 5 dead === layer 2 === s turns to state b turns to become o turns to on a turns to and === layer 3 === before
20:44:04 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/alpaca flavor]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135729 * Tommyaweosme * (+176) Created page with "alpaca tommyaweosme flavor state n m: turns to y on 4 b state a b: turns to m on 4 y state x y: turns to b on 4 m and 2 y you probably have a good feel on my flavor now"
20:47:50 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/alpaca scripts]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135730 * Tommyaweosme * (+299) Created page with "== rock paper scissors == state * rock: turns to paper on 1 paper state O paper: turns to scissors on 1 scissors state v scissors: turns to paper on 1 paper == replicator == number odd: exactly 2or4or6or8 state * alive: turns to de
21:03:25 <esolangs> [[Meta-meta-meta-meta-meta]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135731&oldid=135728 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) Stub, category
21:05:35 <esolangs> [[Deoxyribose]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135732&oldid=135663 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+114) Stub, external resource
21:07:46 <esolangs> [[Wireless Coolbeans]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135733&oldid=135644 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+129) See also, categories
21:08:56 <esolangs> [[Coolbeans]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135734&oldid=132668 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+138) See also, categories
21:09:37 <esolangs> [[Games i made up with triangle magnets that i turned into brainfuck encodings]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135735 * Tommyaweosme * (+960) Created page with "= Twin triangles = Twin triangles is a way to encode [[brainfuck]]. == How it works == You stack two stacks of 3 brainfuck commands. >< +[ -] Then, you can preform these actions on it: === TS -
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22:50:05 <korvo> https://zyme.dev/ New language designed for genetic programming. Is the author here, by chance?
23:22:11 <esolangs> [[ELBOG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135736&oldid=135388 * CPNK * (+12150) add deadfish interpreter and web interpreter
23:31:21 <esolangs> [[ELBOG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135737&oldid=135736 * CPNK * (+97) add cat program
23:47:38 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * PoptartPlungerBoi * uploaded "[[File:Ifthenelsediagram.png]]": diagram
23:48:00 <esolangs> [[Nice]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135739&oldid=131394 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+8) /* If Then Else */
23:50:32 <esolangs> [[Nice]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135740&oldid=135739 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (-251) /* If Then Else */
23:53:12 <esolangs> [[Nice]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135741&oldid=135740 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (-9) /* Brief History */
23:53:32 <esolangs> [[Nice]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135742&oldid=135741 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (-140) /* Introduction */