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02:13:07 <esolangs> [[Talk:Daniel B. Cristofani]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=136204 * None1 * (+657) Created page with "==Brainfuck programs no longer public domain== Several months ago, a note was inserted in the "My brainfuck programs" section in his [[https://brainfuck.org/ brainfuck.org]] website: (Note: I'm licensing all of these under a Creative Commons Attribution-S
02:13:26 <esolangs> [[Talk:Daniel B. Cristofani]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136205&oldid=136204 * None1 * (-2)
02:13:43 <esolangs> [[Talk:Daniel B. Cristofani]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136206&oldid=136205 * None1 * (+13)
02:38:46 <esolangs> [[Dbfi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136207&oldid=120343 * None1 * (-293)
02:39:56 <esolangs> [[Dbfi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136208&oldid=136207 * None1 * (+4) Dbfi is no longer public domain
02:40:16 <esolangs> [[Dbfi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136209&oldid=136208 * None1 * (+4)
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07:10:38 <esolangs> [[Borth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136218&oldid=136193 * Ractangle * (+136) /* Examples */
07:12:02 <esolangs> [[Borth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136219&oldid=136218 * Ractangle * (+113) /* Commands */
07:23:33 <esolangs> [[Borth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136220&oldid=136219 * Ractangle * (+200) /* Logic Gates */
07:26:43 <esolangs> [[Borth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136221&oldid=136220 * Ractangle * (+74) /* Logic Gates */
07:40:40 <esolangs> [[Borth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136222&oldid=136221 * Ractangle * (-410) /* Logic Gates */
07:42:12 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136223&oldid=136190 * Ractangle * (+12) /* Esolangs */
07:47:40 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136224&oldid=136166 * Ractangle * (+102)
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07:48:17 <esolangs> [[I have no absolute idea what do i name this esolang so uhhhh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136227&oldid=136225 * Ractangle * (+13)
08:54:33 <b_jonas> So there's this thing that I find greatly annoying for some reason, which is that sometimes people design esolangs that have built-in integer arithmetic, but only a compare equal or compare to zero instruction, no way to less-than compare numbers or check the sign of a number. (This is fine when brainfuck does it since it doesn't have add or subtract operations anyway, only increment and decrement.)
08:54:39 <b_jonas> Wikiplia is one example – the way to find the sign of a number in it is to take the first character with the substring operation (it implicitly converts numbers to strings using %d format kind of like perl) and check if it's a minus sign.
08:55:33 <b_jonas> But recently I found out something I missed earlier about https://esolangs.org/wiki/Lawrence_J._Krakauer%27s_decimal_computer . It has just a branch if zero instruction, but it gets away with it because the add and subtract instructions are unsigned saturated. I find this very unique. Does any other language or computer, esoteric or not, do that?
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12:33:37 <esolangs> [[Talk:Daniel B. Cristofani]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136228&oldid=136206 * Ais523 * (+253) if we took a copy of it while it was public domain, the copy is till public domain
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12:42:08 <esolangs> [[Talk:Daniel B. Cristofani]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136229&oldid=136228 * Ais523 * (+269) although was it ever public domain in the first place?
12:44:51 <ais523> <b_jonas> But recently I found out something I missed earlier about https://esolangs.org/wiki/Lawrence_J._Krakauer%27s_decimal_computer . It has just a branch if zero instruction, but it gets away with it because the add and subtract instructions are unsigned saturated. I find this very unique. Does any other language or computer, esoteric or not, do that? ← yes, I've seen it at least twice, but am having trouble remembering where
12:46:36 <ais523> NQL has saturating subtraction, but it also has normal < and > operations
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12:46:47 <ais523> maybe that's one of the instances I was thinking of, in which case I've possibly only seen it once
12:56:37 <korvo> Hm. The Cristofani situation seems a little curious. It's clear that dbfi can't both be CC-BY-SA *and* also an academic artifact meant to be included in a paper, and he's got a pre-preprint: http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/08.html
12:58:18 <ais523> it is certainly possible for parts of a paper to be multi-licensed under CC-by-sa and the journal's licensee
12:58:33 <korvo> I don't think off-wiki work should care much, because they're going to be using the educational/academic free-use carveout anyway: intentionally disregarding the license for purposes of teaching.
12:59:35 <korvo> I guess it's possible, but that's not gonna stop folks from copying code out of whitepapers. It's also very rude, in the sense that folks typically feel entitled to do such copying; why would you include example code in a paper and *not* let people use it?
13:01:06 <ais523> the wiki quite possibly *does* hit the educational carveout, which would lead to some interesting consequences for licensing
13:02:16 <int-e> CC-BY-SA does allow you to take code with attribution... it feels quite in line with how academia generally works
13:04:46 <ais523> well, as long as you don't incorporate it into anything that isn't also CC-by-sa (or GPL, IIRC)
13:05:57 <int-e> I'm mostly answering the "why would you" question.
13:06:22 <int-e> I'm still trying to figure out an eloquent way to say that the idea that you can freely copy stuff from whitepapers is fallacious.
13:07:54 <korvo> You can freely copy *anything* from a whitepaper. What you can't do is claim that you wrote it, or republish it in an academic context without attribution.
13:08:10 <ais523> well, if there were a general rule that all of that content were public domain, it might discourage people from posting it in the first place
13:08:41 <ais523> there's a difference between "anyone can look at / learn from this" and "anyone can incorporate this into their own products"
13:09:24 <int-e> https://web.archive.org/web/20210128093207/https://brainfuck.org/ mentions no license at all which would qualify as all rights reserved
13:09:38 <korvo> Oh, *products* are completely different. As soon as money's involved, everybody should be compensated for licenses.
13:09:52 <int-e> korvo: No, you can't. It's copyrighted material; publishing it doesn't make it not copyrighted.
13:10:36 <ais523> <korvo> Oh, *products* are completely different. As soon as money's involved, everybody should be compensated for licenses. ← well the point is that as soon as it becomes pubilc domain, people could do that – so if that restriction exists, it isn't public domain
13:10:46 <int-e> The whole point of copyright is that you can publish something and still benefit from legal protections.
13:10:57 <korvo> int-e: I don't respect copyrights of academic publishers; in general, I don't respect any copyright transferred via working-for-hire. I see your point.
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13:11:12 <int-e> korvo: That's your choice and personal risk.
13:12:38 <int-e> ais523: https://web.archive.org/web/20210128093207/https://brainfuck.org/ mentions no license at all, so the CC-BY-SA is a relaxation. So that would support the idea that code may have been copied illegally in the past.
13:13:10 <korvo> ais523: Ah, as far as what the wiki should do, sure. I'm talking more generally.
13:14:09 <korvo> int-e: I assume you would be horrified to learn that the typical artist *cannot* be trained without infringing copyright, and the typical art school has a thriving underground art-piracy scene.
13:14:42 <int-e> korvo: I'm aware of "Melancholy Elephants"
13:15:09 <int-e> I do have issues with the ever increasing copyright term length.
13:15:40 <ais523> it actually stopped increasing semi-recently
13:16:03 <int-e> I feel that a shorter term copyright would strike a good balance between moral rights and the ability to commercially exploit your work as an author or artist.
13:16:04 <korvo> int-e: Oh, I mean today. Like, every jazz instructor I ever worked with would hand me a burnt CD containing original versions of music, and I would have to learn the parts by ear. I was instructed to infringe.
13:16:27 <ais523> I do think the best balance would be achieved with substantially smaller copyright terms
13:16:53 <korvo> Risk tradeoffs were made. When I was in a pit for "Fiddler on the Roof", we were strictly instructed to not play *any* music during the preshow, in case there was a lawyer in the audience.
13:16:56 <ais523> 10 years, for example, would easily be enough for most media in today's world – if you've made something of value, people aren't going to wait 10 years for it to go out of copyright
13:19:15 <korvo> Copyright today could be 48hrs. Somebody like Ariana Grande could perform a concert by tweeting the first part of a key exchange, requiring every concert-goer to pay and register their own key. At the designated time, Grande's key unlocks and the concert is available; everybody who paid gets a 2hr head start. All the money is made up front, so there's no point in preventing copying.
13:19:42 <korvo> 7yrs seems like a decent first compromise while we wait for the media industry to stop being bad at computers.
13:20:49 <int-e> Even if we accept that idea for live performances... what about other forms of media that don't have live performances? Video games? Books? Paintings?
13:21:44 <korvo> Paintings can't be mechanically copied. Books and video games can also be encrypted in a time-locked box. This might be the start of a dilemma, since anything which can be digitized can be encrypted.
13:22:10 <ais523> video games need a few years, I think – probably more than 1, but a small number
13:22:49 <ais523> although currently video games are often stored partially on the company's servers and stop working when the servers are shut down
13:22:59 <korvo> At least in the USA, there's a concept known as "doctrine of first sale" or "right of first sale" or etc. It means that a copyright holder is only entitled to payment, licensing, etc. on the *first* sale, the sale from the artist to the patron.
13:23:10 <int-e> I do like the 10 year number.
13:23:30 <korvo> So if the holder wants to make money, they need to do so via first sales only.
13:23:59 <int-e> yeah paintings are a flawed example
13:24:03 <ais523> korvo: which they work around by never actually selling anything, they just rent it to you
13:24:26 <korvo> Paintings and scultures are excellent examples! It's worth thinking about how we usually only fund them through patronage.
13:25:33 <ais523> some of them are works for hire, aren't they?
13:25:48 <korvo> ais523: Which isn't free for them. If they are offering leases, then they're obligated to e.g. replace physical media which has become damaged through regular use.
13:26:46 <ais523> korvo: they just put terms in the lease saying they won't do that
13:27:03 <ais523> (in fact, couldn't they theoretically charge the customer for damaging the leased item?)
13:27:35 <int-e> korvo: It's a bad example because the subject is works that can easily be copied without loss of quality.
13:29:32 <korvo> int-e: But it's still art and still must be considered if we want to destroy copyright.
13:30:31 <int-e> Well I don't want to do that.
13:30:34 <korvo> ais523: They can also put terms in contracts saying that they can shoot your dog~ Just because the typical record label isn't operated like Rent-a-Center doesn't mean that they don't have those legal obligations; it merely means that they've paid off lots of legislators.
13:31:21 <korvo> Why not destroy copyright? It only benefits large publishers and it's one of the worst parts of being an artist.
13:32:08 <ais523> there was a news story today where someone died of an allergic reaction in Disneyworld, and Disney argued that her husband couldn't sue them over it because he had had a Disney+ account several years ago and the terms and conditions prevented that
13:32:39 <ais523> unfortunately the argument didn't get tested in court, because the public backlash got them to change their mind
13:32:53 <korvo> As if an arbitrator is going to be nicer to Disney. What a bizarre self-own.
13:33:14 <ais523> (their argument that they didn't own the restaurant is probably more reasonable)
13:35:34 <ais523> korvo: it does benefit small publishers too, e.g. someone who develops a computer game on their own couldn't easily sell it in the absence of copyright
13:35:37 <int-e> This may not have been news at all if they hadn't make that frivolous attempt at forcing the case through arbitration.
13:36:17 <ais523> there are alternative possible models (e.g. the bounty model, which I like in theory but fear might be unworkable in practice), but they have issues of their own
13:36:19 <korvo> ais523: You are so very close to the realization that it doesn't make economic sense to sell software.
13:36:52 <ais523> korvo: you would not get enough people making it to supply enough software to the world if they couldn't get money off it
13:37:49 <korvo> ais523: No, software is one of those things where a relatively small group of authors *can* supply the world. Economically, we say that the marginal cost of copying software goes to zero in the limit.
13:38:13 <int-e> ...that would be a very sad world
13:38:19 <korvo> Not to be confused with goods like LSD, which has non-zero marginal cost but could also meet the world's demand with the supply from a single chemist.
13:38:52 <korvo> int-e: Yes, this Microsoft-dominated world is sad.
13:39:05 <ais523> korvo: you're looking only at the least essential software
13:39:12 <ais523> things like Windows are easily replaced by free alternatives
13:39:13 <int-e> The fact that we have an abundance of different games to choose from is great.
13:39:38 <ais523> but there is a lot of more specialised software in existence, that doesn't get as many people trying to write free replacements
13:39:47 <korvo> ais523: I'm looking at *economics*. The economic problem only exists for things that are scarce, that take human labor to produce, *and* that have non-zero marginal cost despite economics of scale.
13:40:09 <ais523> korvo: I am arguing that the majority of software is such a thing, because it is only useful for a relatively small fraction of people
13:40:45 <int-e> Or heck, take the mega monopolist that is Apple. They have an App store. It's deeply flawed and exploitative but it does pay thousands of independent developers. It's a pretty fair guess that that wouldn't work nearly as well the same way without copyright.
13:41:05 <korvo> ais523: I think you're arguing something else: that people ought to be *compensated* for their labor. And this path leads to UBI, since there's no economic way to get there.
13:41:32 <int-e> It must be great to have firm convictions.
13:41:32 <korvo> int-e: Yes, without copyright, Apple would be moribund. Indeed, *all* fashion companies would collapse somewhat.
13:42:33 <ais523> korvo: I'm arguing the converse of that – that people wouldn't do the labour if they weren't compensated
13:43:02 <ais523> (in general, there are exceptions but they aren't enough to power the world)
13:43:02 <korvo> I don't really like the whole "it's exploitative but it does pay thousands of artists" argument. Jobs' other investment, Pixar, does the same thing as traditional animation studios; the fact that it's digital has not made working conditions better compared to e.g. Disney.
13:43:15 <ais523> and that if you make it impossible to compensate them, then people won't have any way to obtain the product that they would normally buy
13:44:17 <korvo> ais523: Sure, bread before virtue. But we can't do it with old Biblical hate like "those who don't work, don't eat;" we need to ensure a universal baseline of quality living first.
13:44:52 <ais523> universal basic income clearly has a lot of benefits, but I suspect most countries can't afford it
13:45:26 <ais523> the goods that are purchased with the income have to come from somewhere
13:45:59 <ais523> it would be a very positive thing to try to work out how to get the world into a state where a universal basic income is possible
13:46:16 <korvo> Every country can afford *some* UBI just as a matter of tax policy, except places like Somaliland which don't even have taxes. We have something like 3x the labor actually required to produce our needs.
13:46:35 <ais523> but you also need to work out what you're doing in the meantime
13:46:51 <korvo> The USA could instantiate a 1600/mo UBI at any time. The piles of cash are already there. A 2000/mo UBI is workable if tax policy is included.
13:47:01 <ais523> korvo: take the UK as an example – it uses quite a bit of its taxes for social policies like caring for the elderly and paying for universal health care for everyone
13:47:24 <ais523> this is a form of basic income, in a way, because these are things that people would otherwise have to pay for themselves
13:48:16 <korvo> ais523: Universal health care is roughly 5x cheaper than the HMO/ACO route. Also, no, it's not basic income, because it doesn't put cash into pockets.
13:49:09 <ais523> well it stops an effect that would otherwise remove cash from pockets (and/or kill people who didn't have it)
13:49:14 <ais523> economically, that's income
13:49:56 <korvo> The UK's health plan includes letting some folks freeze to death on a seasonal basis. I would look at it skeptically rather than letting memes explain it.
13:50:27 <korvo> And no, reduced costs aren't income. That's the same mistake that the record labels make when they claim that piracy hurts their sales.
13:52:51 <ais523> <korvo> Every country can afford *some* UBI just as a matter of tax policy ← actually this is just mathematically false, thinking about it – you can't possibly give everyone more money than they are paying in taxes, so some people have to get less, those people are not getting basic income in a meaningful sense
13:53:00 <korvo> ais523: I would recommend sitting down and planning a commune. Give it 1000 people, unlimited space, and an open system of trade. How much labor participation is really necessary?
13:53:14 <korvo> I find it's about 85% participation, at about 15 hrs/wk of labor.
13:53:56 <korvo> ais523: Oh noes, the Zuckerdude doesn't get to benefit from UBI! But I don't care about him, I care about the 60% of the country that is food-insecure.
13:53:58 <ais523> the unlimited space would help a lot – that's one thing the world is very short of at the moment
13:54:15 <ais523> korvo: under your assumptions his income would drop a lot and provide less tax income
13:54:47 <ais523> like, didn't he make most of his money from software in the first place?
13:54:54 <korvo> ais523: No, UBI doesn't stop Facebook from contributing to genocide or however they make money.
13:55:14 <ais523> korvo: but removing software copyright might
13:55:31 <ais523> admittedly, at this point it is all mostly network effects
13:55:36 <korvo> ais523: Under ideal reforms, we would remove not only Zuck's copyright but his head as well.
13:56:12 <ais523> calling for the death of people (especially specific people) is beyond a line, I can't condone that behaviour on this channel
13:56:14 <korvo> (Sorry, I'm still digesting the idea that "the world is very short of" livable space. There's so much space!)
13:56:39 <korvo> ais523: Okay, no worries. I hope that you read the backscroll and think about the ethics of your beliefs. Peace.
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14:21:23 <int-e> WTF was that... I guess I wasn't (and am not) prepared to consider a complete rework of society... I think incremental changes are far more realistic.
14:22:08 <ais523> it's OK to have an idealistic end goal that would be a genuine improvement, and try to work out ways to reach it – but getting there incrementally is going to be the only viable way to do that, if indeed there's any viable route
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14:56:17 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Arandomidoitontheinternet * New user account
14:57:17 <esolangs> [[Lalala]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136230&oldid=136000 * Yayimhere * (+25)
14:59:29 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136231&oldid=136074 * Arandomidoitontheinternet * (+224)
15:00:11 <int-e> Back from an errand. korvo's parting line was also super condescending. -1/5 stars.
15:00:13 <esolangs> [[User:Arandomidoitontheinternet]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=136232 * Arandomidoitontheinternet * (+31) Created page with "exactly what it says on the tin"
15:01:52 <esolangs> [[Lalala]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136233&oldid=136230 * Yayimhere * (+109)
15:04:58 <esolangs> [[Pikobrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136234&oldid=100890 * Yayimhere * (-32)
15:13:01 <esolangs> [[Quid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136235&oldid=132956 * Arandomidoitontheinternet * (+217) Started on FizzBuzz
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16:08:59 <esolangs> [[User:Richard565]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=136236 * Richard565 * (+212) Creation
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16:22:17 <esolangs> [[NQL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=136237 * B jonas * (+31) Redirected page to [[Not-Quite-Laconic]]
16:35:56 <b_jonas> I want to register that I do not think the copyright protection term being long is a problem, and I would not like it to be shorter, except possibly in as much that it's harmonized across countries so you don't get tripped up by it being five years longer if the work was first published in Italy or that sort of trap
16:37:16 <b_jonas> and the people who argue for shorter copyright term usually bring up arguments that either don't understand how copyright works or don't understand how business works.
16:37:44 <int-e> (I know it's more nuanced but Steamboat Willy lasted for over 100 years, and is now in a very unclear state because it *does* differ by jurisdiction.)
16:38:14 <int-e> Okay what exactly goes wrong with a 10 year copyright term?
16:39:44 <int-e> (Also this is obviously simplified; different terms may be useful for different categories of products. Books may need longer terms to account for long-running series. Maybe.)
16:41:08 <b_jonas> "a concept known as ‘doctrine of first sale’" => you noticed that "copyright" has "copy" in its name? that means if you buy a book then scan it and distribute the scan to everyone on the internet, or pirated copies of a video game on the internet after you bought it once, etc, you can't try to hide behind the "doctrine of first sale". those kinds of activities, specifically restricted by the
16:41:14 <b_jonas> copyright law, are what people usually want to do when they try to give arguments like this.
16:42:13 <b_jonas> "couldn't they theoretically charge the customer for damaging the leased item" => yes, a library will certainly do that when I borrow a CD, at least if the damage is deliberate or careless rather than normal wear
16:46:58 <int-e> b_jonas: I tried to disengage at that point but yeah, while it's degenerate when it comes to paintings (unless you make prints of that of course), indeed you do not get the right to copy the work; you are allowed to resell your own physical copy (e.g. of a book to take the most standard example)
16:47:41 <fowl> what do I have to learn to understand things like this https://arxiv.org/pdf/1011.0014
16:47:58 <int-e> . o O ( first, learn to link to /abs/ instead )
16:48:14 <b_jonas> "what exactly goes wrong with a 10 year copyright term?" => there would be much fewer film adaptations of books, and fewer *good* books and videogames, unlike the bestseller books that people buy for signaling and never read, good books are still valuable ten years later
16:49:08 <b_jonas> fowl: you linked that earlier but tbh the abstract sounds like nonsense to me and I'd just ignore that paper
16:50:04 <b_jonas> ah, it was korvo who linked the paper: https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2024-08-19.html#lLb
16:50:52 <b_jonas> the abstract dies at the very first sentence, and the body of the article doesn't look less fishy.
16:52:30 <b_jonas> ais523: NQL => thank you. I also have the feeling that I've seen the saturating subtraction in some high-level language once, but don't know where, and I'd still be interested in examples
16:54:31 <fowl> all I want is to write an artificial life simulation I can watch like a loving god. never intervening, the eternal voyeur
16:54:38 <int-e> "we make primitive recursive functions impenetrable by casting it in the language of category theory" - page 8/9
16:59:26 <b_jonas> the other problem that I have with the people who call for shorter copyright term is, if you think that creative works are worthless after ten or twnety years after publication then why do you find it important what the copyright terms for them are? if they really are worthless then you shouldn't care.
17:00:05 <b_jonas> I think the argument is dishonest, they *know* that the works are valuable, they just selfishly argue that they should be able to get them for free. if that's not your motivation then you should somehow explain why the shorter term would be better.
17:01:17 <int-e> I wonder, have you read Melancholy Elephants? It's a short story about indefinite copyright terms.
17:02:07 <b_jonas> and "only benefits the greedy heirs of the artist" makes no economic sense: if I build a good house that people will still be able to live in 70 years from now, then I can sell it for value that accounts for that use 70 years later and spend that money now, I don't need to benefit some mysterious future heirs. publishers generally pay advances to creators before they sell even a single book or movie
17:02:13 <b_jonas> ticket, because creative works work just the same.
17:02:41 <int-e> It's less about using works verbatim and more about the ability to remix. The slogan is "All art is derivative."
17:02:49 <b_jonas> if your heirs get money by selling film rights to your books, that just means you were not smart enough and didn't sell those rights in advance to a publisher.
17:04:27 <int-e> Also there's tons of material that simply disappears because it's not commerically exploited. Which is a cultural loss. Abandonware is a keyword there I think.
17:06:27 <b_jonas> by the way, have I mentioned this esoterical copyright thing yet? suppose there's a photo distributed under the CC-BY license, so I can distribute it freely but only with attribution. in theory, you could paint a mural of that photo onto your house wall, with attribution painted under it, and if it's permanent and in a country with freedom of panorama, then you can later photograph that wall with the
17:06:33 <b_jonas> attribution cropped out and distribute the same photo without attribution. this is expensive because it only works for permanently exhibited works, and weather-proofing a painting to be permanent (or regularly redoing it as the quality deterioriates) costs a lot of money, and the wall space costs money that you can't sell for advertisers too, but I think it's possible in theory.
17:06:42 <esolangs> [[TFMG]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136238&oldid=135558 * KSPAtlas * (+44) Added cat program
17:07:28 <b_jonas> "disappears because it's not commerically exploited." => yes, but most of those disappears because it was only published in pre-digital journals or books. anything published today has a digital form that is much easier to copy and so less likely to disappear.
17:08:21 <b_jonas> the old journals have to be guarded for decades in libraries, and that costs money and also a bit of luck (because of wars or natural catastrophes)
17:08:34 <int-e> fowl: That paper really doesn't really do anything substantial. It's just using unnecessarily complicated language; I feel it strives to obfuscate rather than further the understanding of algorithms and their equivalence (which it claims as its goal).
17:09:25 <int-e> I am prejudiced; I have this feeling about 90% of uses of category theory in computer science.
17:10:56 <int-e> (I'm making an exception for data and codata as initial and final objects in categories of algebras and coalgebras, respectively.)
17:12:02 <int-e> (And I don't know about HoTT; it's too hard for me but it seems to get some actual utility from categorial language.)
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17:21:49 <int-e> (One detailled objection I have to that paper... when you think about equivalence of algorithms, you probably have a relation, maybe expressed as a many-to-one map. It's almost never a bijective map which is what you'd need for the automorphisms that Galois theory talks about at this abstract level.)
17:22:26 <int-e> (And I'm sure that there are better objections.)
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17:30:28 <ais523> <b_jonas> the other problem that I have with the people who call for shorter copyright term is, if you think that creative works are worthless after ten or twnety years after publication then why do you find it important what the copyright terms for them are? if they really are worthless then you shouldn't care. ← I think there is some amount of value to the creators for them being copyright, and some amount of value to the public for being out of
17:30:29 <ais523> copyright – and as time goes on the former becomes smaller relative to the latter
17:30:59 <ais523> so you can get a boost of value to the public without harming the copyright owners much (in particular, without harming them sufficiently that they wouldn't make the work in the first place)
17:34:29 <b_jonas> possibly, but 10 years is ridiculously short in any case
17:37:09 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136239&oldid=135341 * Ractangle * (+86) /* Befunge-93 */
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19:33:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[I have no absolute idea what do i name this esolang so uhhhh]] to [[Kava]]
19:34:09 <esolangs> [[Kava]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136242&oldid=136240 * Ractangle * (-69)
19:57:24 <esolangs> [[Kava]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136243&oldid=136242 * Ractangle * (+165)
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20:55:13 <Noisytoot> b_jonas: what does it mean for a wall painting to be permanent?
20:55:31 <Noisytoot> you can always paint over it or destroy the wall so it can't actually be permanent
21:05:18 <b_jonas> Noisytoot: it's not permanent alone that matters, but that's it's exhibited permanently in a public place, the intention matters
21:07:28 <b_jonas> so these abstract sculputures by Bernar Venet for example, https://commons.wikimedia.org/?curid=44351848 you can't actually publish photographs of without the permission of the sculptor, because they're a traveling exhibition moved to new places like twice a year, and were only in this location for half a year
21:08:12 <b_jonas> but most outdoor sculptures and buildings are there permanently and so I am allowed to publish photos of them without permission from the copyright holder of the sculpture or architect
21:08:51 <b_jonas> this depends on the country of course, this is for Hungary
21:09:09 <b_jonas> permanent doesn't have to mean forever in this context
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21:14:54 <b_jonas> and of course if you want to know for sure you'll have to ask a lawyer, don't trust me
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21:27:26 <fizzie> I remember they were very picky about photographing the Atomium in Brussels.
21:27:52 <fizzie> Hmm https://atomium.be/copyright "Since 15 July 2016 there has also been a Freedom of Panorama" I guess it has changed a little over there.
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21:31:06 <fizzie> (I was there in 2010.)
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22:27:49 <esolangs> [[Huit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136244&oldid=136120 * TheCanon2 * (+92) Added precaution