00:00:07 <int-e> oh that *is* visible.
00:00:19 <fizzie> Just because nobody was doing anything to the logs at the time.
00:00:53 <int-e> anyway, this was me catching up all the way back to the freenode debacle
00:01:14 <fizzie> (The logs are also a lot cheaper to serve than the wiki is, in terms of CPU.)
00:02:43 <int-e> korvo: see the paste link above for something closely related *and* tested :)
00:04:14 <int-e> a queue automaton might actually be easier for brainfuck... you can consume characters from the front of a string and append new ones at the end, so there's way less shifting. but this system also has way more rules
00:08:05 <int-e> fizzie: it would've been less visible if I had gone for the monthly logs. but I like `grep` actually spitting out dates from the file names :)
00:11:07 <int-e> too bad the old paste links no longer work, like https://logs.esolangs.org/freenode-esoteric/2018-12-28.html#lVb (this may be my fault; I have this habit of selecting 90d for expiration with few exceptions)
00:37:10 <shachaf> int-e: Did you try Bee Magic?
00:42:47 <korvo> int-e: Oh wow. Thanks.
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01:38:01 <int-e> shachaf: Hmm, I had not tried it. Cute.
01:38:55 <int-e> (And no, I have not finished it.)
01:39:06 <int-e> (In case it came across that way.)
02:10:19 <esolangs> [[0 Bits, 0 Bytes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143803&oldid=143792 * PkmnQ * (+16) In some sense they can be considered the same language?
02:18:52 <int-e> shachaf: oh noes, I finished it once and...
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02:48:53 <korvo> Ooh, that is cute.
04:11:55 <esolangs> [[Replay]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143804 * AndrewBayly * (+20) Created page with "This page is a stub."
04:17:55 <esolangs> [[Replay]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143805&oldid=143804 * AndrewBayly * (+1941) Initial Description
04:19:41 <esolangs> [[Replay]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143806&oldid=143805 * AndrewBayly * (+80) indenting code
04:21:56 <esolangs> [[Replay]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143807&oldid=143806 * AndrewBayly * (+11) re-formatting
04:23:11 <esolangs> [[User:AndrewBayly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143808&oldid=143574 * AndrewBayly * (+136) added Replay
04:24:40 <esolangs> [[Replay]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143809&oldid=143807 * AndrewBayly * (+24) added category "Languages"
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05:01:55 <Sgeo> I'm hooked on Mancala (Kalah)
05:57:07 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143810&oldid=143092 * PrySigneToFry * (+134) /* */ new section
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06:07:38 <esolangs> [[Talk:PokBattle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143811&oldid=134607 * PrySigneToFry * (+612) /* Some pseudo code */
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06:11:17 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143812&oldid=143367 * PrySigneToFry * (+0)
06:14:12 <esolangs> [[Talk:Basilisk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143813&oldid=143599 * PrySigneToFry * (+4) Fixed header file because the megac++.h is not built-in.
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06:57:35 <esolangs> [[Execode/Original implementation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143814&oldid=142342 * Iddi01 * (+5377) Add interpreter for [[Exechars]]
06:57:40 <esolangs> [[Exechars]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143815 * Iddi01 * (+8354) *article modified from [[Execode]]*
07:06:22 <esolangs> [[Exechars]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143816&oldid=143815 * Iddi01 * (+1) As expected, i have forgotten something and need to fix it
07:34:36 <esolangs> [[User:Iddi01]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143817&oldid=143388 * Iddi01 * (+422) Add [[Exechars]], and attempt to make others feel good about my esolangs
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07:38:39 <esolangs> [[Talk:Basilisk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143818&oldid=143813 * PrySigneToFry * (+766)
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07:42:14 <esolangs> [[Execode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143819&oldid=143598 * Iddi01 * (+31) /* See also */ Add [[Exechars]]
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07:57:21 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (D-G)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143820&oldid=142647 * Iddi01 * (+393) ...but mostly to fix something weird
08:09:39 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143821&oldid=142450 * Iddi01 * (+314)
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11:09:18 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143822&oldid=143778 * ATProtogen * (+151)
11:15:30 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143823&oldid=143822 * ATProtogen * (+295)
11:16:12 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143824&oldid=143823 * ATProtogen * (+0)
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11:40:42 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143825&oldid=143824 * ATProtogen * (+4)
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11:49:25 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143826&oldid=143825 * ATProtogen * (+379)
11:55:08 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143827&oldid=143826 * ATProtogen * (+65)
11:57:48 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143828&oldid=143827 * ATProtogen * (+15)
12:20:48 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143829&oldid=143828 * ATProtogen * (+0)
12:24:58 <esolangs> [[Interpret Esolangs Online]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143830&oldid=143278 * None1 * (-2) /* External Resources */ I confirmed that the vercel page works!
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13:05:53 <ais523> there's an Underload interpreter in BF, I haven't checked to see if it potentially needs bignums for big programs, but if it doesn't that should prove TCness (because Underload was proven TC starting from SK combinator calculus, rather than from BF)
13:07:07 <wWwwW> plz what do you think of my theory of burn(WIP): https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Yayimhere/Sandbox (sorry for asking but you didnt seem to see it)
13:07:26 <ais523> it doesn't fit the information that I already released about the language
13:08:46 <wWwwW> it dont? wait wut. what information
13:09:00 <ais523> see the list at the bottom of https://esolangs.org/wiki/Burn
13:10:24 <wWwwW> i dont see the problem
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13:10:58 <ais523> well, your example seems to be based on single digits rather htan pairs
13:11:39 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143831&oldid=143754 * Yayimhere * (-554) /* Burn */
13:12:26 <ais523> "It was possible for the difference in one colour channel to affect what happened in the other colour channel." is the main hint that disallows that
13:16:34 <b_jonas> there's also multiple compilers to brainfuck
13:17:01 <esolangs> [[PokBattle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143832&oldid=134531 * PrySigneToFry * (+469) Simple example added
13:17:30 <esolangs> [[PokBattle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143833&oldid=143832 * PrySigneToFry * (+3)
13:18:03 <b_jonas> and there's a lot written about brainfuck constructions on the internet,
13:18:33 <esolangs> [[PokBattle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143834&oldid=143833 * PrySigneToFry * (+8)
13:19:41 <b_jonas> most importantly you can use a periodic pattern of the tape cells where you alternate cells from multiple tapes in a cycle, and keep track of the head position modulo the number of channels everywhere in the program. you only get one head, but you can burn full channels for nothing but a single 1 among all 0s to mark a position of an extra head to simulate an extra tape.
13:20:36 <b_jonas> it's kind of ugly and I certainly wouldn't want to work with brainfuck, but people have actually written multiple working compilers to it
13:28:43 <ais523> I tried to get gcc to generate brainfuck, once
13:28:55 <ais523> I was using a period-6 periodic pattern
13:29:24 <ais523> I didn't fully succeed, I managed something interesting but don't think I got as far as any working programs
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14:04:28 <esolangs> [[PythOwO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143835&oldid=143559 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+592)
14:30:11 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143836&oldid=143767 * PrySigneToFry * (+664) /* Translated ! */ new section
14:36:38 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143837&oldid=143768 * PrySigneToFry * (+183)
14:37:23 <esolangs> [[PIX]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143838&oldid=140797 * RainbowDash * (+30) I am pretty sure this is a Markup Language
14:38:08 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143839&oldid=143837 * PrySigneToFry * (+98)
14:38:38 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143840&oldid=143829 * ATProtogen * (+16)
14:42:59 <int-e> shachaf: I need one more star... it looks impossible.
14:43:10 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143841&oldid=143839 * PrySigneToFry * (+70)
14:58:09 <esolangs> [[GlyphCode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143842 * CodePhantom * (+1454) Created page with "= GlyphCode = == Overview == GlyphCode is an esoteric programming language that uses an array of unique glyphs to perform operations. The complexity of the glyphs makes deciphering the code a challenge, ensuring a mind-bending coding experience. == Basic Command
15:10:18 <esolangs> [[GimmickLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143843 * CodePhantom * (+1009) Created page with "= GimmickLang = == Overview == GimmickLang is an esoteric programming language where keywords double as variables, and commands are enclosed in curly braces `{}`. Additionally, loops have a 50% chance of sending the program back to the start, making it unpredic
15:11:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[OCBscriptOCBCCBCCB]] to [[PL]]
15:21:24 <esolangs> [[PL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143846&oldid=143844 * Ractangle * (-1057)
15:22:11 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143847&oldid=143375 * Ractangle * (-62) /* Esolangs */
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15:25:53 <int-e> shachaf: orrf pna'g ernq; orrf pna'g syvc fjvguprf... jung tbbq ner gurl?
15:26:41 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143848&oldid=143522 * Ractangle * (-36) /* Non-alphabetic */
15:26:59 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143849&oldid=143821 * Ractangle * (-299) /* (script()) */
15:27:55 <int-e> (it's a spoiler if you haven't found 10 spells (counting the cancel one from the trophy room))
15:35:20 <int-e> And that's still not the end of it.
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15:54:00 <esolangs> [[Talk:Overload]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143850 * B jonas * (+197) Created page with "Not to be confused with [https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2024-09.html#lF3c the Overload language that is Underload's precursor]. ~~~~"
15:57:06 <b_jonas> Ken Iverson died twenty years ago today. We have to thank him for a prompt introduction of computers in education to high school level. He made an interpreter that allowed rapid experiments, so people could get quicker feedback on a terminal than the then typical slower cycle of compiling and running a Fortran program. In some way he contributed to the addictiveness and instant gratification of the
15:57:58 <b_jonas> Ken Iverson (1920–2004) rest in peace, we will always remember
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17:17:11 <esolangs> [[PL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143851&oldid=143846 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+42) Categories
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18:17:43 <esolangs> [[User:PkmnQ/Alternate Universe Underload]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143852 * PkmnQ * (+1005) Created page with "{{WIP}} This is an exploration of what would change if [[Underload]] had its <code>~</code> command was replaced with a different command, which will be represented with <code>-</code>. == Command == ; <TT>-</TT> <nowiki>:</nowiki> (''x'')
18:31:55 <esolangs> [[PL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143853&oldid=143851 * Ractangle * (+64) /* Examples */
18:53:34 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143854&oldid=143802 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+55) /* Instructions */
18:54:27 <esolangs> [[User:PkmnQ/Alternate Universe Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143855&oldid=143852 * PkmnQ * (+557)
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19:36:41 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143856&oldid=143840 * ATProtogen * (+310)
19:37:49 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143857&oldid=143856 * ATProtogen * (+4)
20:16:23 <esolangs> [[PL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143858&oldid=143853 * Ractangle * (-8)
20:17:34 <esolangs> [[Snakel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143859&oldid=143763 * Ractangle * (-47)
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20:24:24 <esolangs> [[Overload/Turing-completeness proof]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143860 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+984) Created page with "This is a proof that [[Overload]] is [[Turing complete]] by ~~~~. This works by showing that a [[Turing complete]] language can be compiled to Overload. == The Turing-complete languag
20:24:40 <esolangs> [[Overload/Turing-completeness proof]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143861&oldid=143860 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-186)
20:24:53 <esolangs> [[User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143862&oldid=142881 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+14)
20:25:23 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143863&oldid=143854 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+74) /* Categories */
20:25:31 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143864&oldid=143863 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+0) /* Categories */
20:27:11 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143865&oldid=143864 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+1) /* Cat program (halts) */
20:27:25 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143866&oldid=143865 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+13) /* Instructions */
20:29:30 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143867&oldid=143866 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+221)
20:34:25 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143868&oldid=143867 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+405) /* Minimization */
20:35:06 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143869&oldid=143868 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+28) /* Categories */
20:51:21 <shachaf> int-e: Hmm, they seem very useful to me!
20:51:40 <shachaf> One more star in what context?
20:52:06 <int-e> shachaf: your puzzle game
20:52:12 <int-e> it turns out there are more though
20:52:25 <int-e> "your" - bee magic
20:56:08 <int-e> And no, I haven't gotten *that* star yet either.
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21:15:14 <salpynx> I agree with zzo38's comment re. Corrado Bohm's P'' being the most formal TC proof for bf. The proof pre-dates bf by decades, and the correspondence was noticed well after bf, and I don't know how formally or when, but it is a trivial subset and feels like an obvious free step to reuse the formal proof.
21:17:23 <salpynx> I haven't looked recently, but I couldn't find a free, easy to access archive copy of Bohm's original journal paper online. I considered getting a photocopy from a University library with physical copies, but I don't have uni connections currently, so it would have been a bit of an effort (and the uni is not even in my city)
21:17:38 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[PL]] to [[MarkupL]]
21:17:38 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Talk:PL/MIX]] to [[Talk:MarkupL/MIX]]
21:18:56 <salpynx> I'm still looking for a copy of Böhm, C.: "On a family of Turing machines and the related programming language", ICC Bull. 3, 185-194, July 1964. , just to link from the Wikipedia article
21:25:02 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143874&oldid=143870 * Ractangle * (+34)
21:25:18 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143875&oldid=143874 * Ractangle * (-70) /* Syntax */
21:27:34 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143876&oldid=143875 * Ractangle * (-62) /* Hello, world */
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21:32:49 <korvo> salpynx: I believe I've found that one in a shadow library, if you're content to read it and verify WP's claims. I don't have notes to share though, sorry.
21:34:03 <b_jonas> right, although you may still want to prove that Brainfuck is also complete in how it can use bytewise interactive input and output.
21:37:02 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143877&oldid=143876 * Ractangle * (+158) /* Syntax */
21:37:34 <salpynx> b_jonas: not sure I follow the extra completeness from IO?
21:39:38 <b_jonas> salpynx: I mean that's a stronger property than just Turing-completeness
21:39:47 <korvo> You need to be able to arbitrarily "beep" the machine by putting it into a designated state. The phrasing on the wiki is in terms of arbitrary effects.
21:40:01 <salpynx> korvo: thanks, I may have found the content somewhere too, but is it a transcription or something? I remember thinking it would still be valuable to have a cleanly obtained copy for proper attribution and linking
21:41:37 <korvo> salpynx: I don't think it's freely available anywhere, no. The original journal hasn't been made open-access, IIUC. When we have access to articles from the 60s, it's usually because they get shared by teachers a lot, and this article doesn't get used (much?) in courses.
21:42:54 <korvo> b_jonas: So, I think we have to fix a convention, but it should be straightforward to show that right-unbounded BF can do arbitrary I/O. We'd reserve the first four cells to use as registers for holding the next character in and out, as well as flags.
21:43:31 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143878&oldid=143869 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-3) /* Minimization */
21:43:47 <korvo> This was how that one BF metainterpreter worked, IIRC: https://github.com/bf-enterprise-solutions/meta.bf
21:45:12 <korvo> Oh, no, that metainterp passes through I/O. So I must be thinking of something else.
21:46:13 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143879&oldid=143877 * Ractangle * (+149) /* MarkupL add-ons */
21:46:30 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143880&oldid=143879 * Ractangle * (+1) /* MarkupL add-ons */
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21:48:28 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * Ractangle * moved [[Talk:MarkupL/MIX]] to [[Talk:PL/MIX]] over redirect
21:48:28 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete_redir * Ractangle * Ractangle deleted redirect [[Talk:PL/MIX]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[Talk:MarkupL/MIX]]"
21:51:33 <salpynx> "phrasing on the wiki is in terms of arbitrary effects" maybe i'm missing some context on what you're trying to prove, but though IO was totally separate from computational ability?
21:51:43 <salpynx> if the result is on the tape, it has been computed. IO could be done with memory mapping, or adding command conventions, or wiring a beeper, but they are all equivalent in terms of computation.
21:56:11 <b_jonas> korvo: what? no, brainfuck has IO built in, using the . and , commands
21:56:19 <korvo> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Arbitrary_effect_at_an_arbitrary_point
21:56:54 <korvo> b_jonas: Sure. I was thinking of performing arbitrary I/O effects, not just having the commands available.
21:57:21 <salpynx> isn't it like asking 'can it play Doom'? The answer is yes, but 'play' isn't formally defined, so you could argue about whether that really counts as 'play' subjectively?
21:57:29 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143883&oldid=143878 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+53)
22:02:14 <salpynx> korvo: i get "Arbitrary effect at an arbitrary point" is required for TCness, but don't see the IO implication? Also, I had to read the last para twice to make sure it wasn't implying some languages can be TC _without_ allowing AEAAP. It's still required, it just doesn't have to be direct or obvious.
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22:09:03 <korvo> salpynx: I/O actions inside the machine correspond to externally-visible states outside the machine.
22:10:22 <korvo> And so if there's some arbitrary barrier preventing the machine from entering some externally-visible state, then that barrier likely prevents the machine from executing the corresponding I/O action. But if there's a legal program expressing that action, then we've found an incompleteness.
22:11:00 <salpynx> as someone who likes writing truth machines for langs with no IO, i though IO was fundamentally a hardware or interpreter implementation detail-- sugar to make things a bit easier, but not required. Conceptually I can look at anything in the system, I don't see why STDOUT is especially priviledged.
22:11:15 <korvo> Because BF has the I/O actions, we also expect that BF is universal over sequences of I/O actions.
22:11:59 <korvo> In languages like E or Monte, one *cannot* look at any part of the system, even with a debugger. You'd need an OS-level debugger or some other abstraction-violator.
22:12:23 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143884&oldid=143857 * ATProtogen * (+88)
22:12:29 <korvo> So I'm used to thinking in terms of observable actions. It also enables us to talk about algorithms vs functions vs programs, which is nice.
22:12:37 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143885&oldid=143884 * ATProtogen * (+0)
22:12:59 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143886&oldid=143885 * ATProtogen * (+1)
22:14:26 <korvo> salpynx: To make this concrete and relevant, see [[Algebraic Brainfuck]]. The monoid I documented there does *not* have I/O, and in fact any I/O will trivialize the theory (IOW prevents us from showing that one program behaves like another).
22:14:53 <korvo> ...Oh, I should say that there.
22:17:52 <salpynx> "Because BF has the I/O actions, we also expect that BF is universal over sequences of I/O actions." ok, I think I understand this is a question... I had assumed that this is necessarily true for all TC langauges that allow arbitrary IO, and it'd have to be true for all TC languages as part of TCness (i,e, not specific to bf). You'd have to add odd restrictions to break it. .. but maybe this does need a proof?
22:20:19 <korvo> Yeah, you've got the idea. It's a straightforward proof to imagine: for each computable sequence of I/O actions, where the program can run a computable function to adapt to each input datum, the corresponding program interleaves I/O action literals with compiled code for those functions.
22:20:56 <korvo> And general recursion is allowed because I/O actions can occur inside those compiled functions.
22:23:15 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143887&oldid=143883 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+152) /* Minimization */
22:23:22 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143888&oldid=143887 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+0) /* Examples */
22:24:08 <esolangs> [[Algebraic Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143889&oldid=142903 * Corbin * (+340) /* As a Monoid */ Note that I/O trivializes the theory. Sad but typical.
22:29:08 <salpynx> i'm skipping a lot of stages in my thoughts here, but "Arb. effect at an arb. point" is using 'effect' to mean an effect 'relevant to computation'. IO adds effects not directly relevant to computation, but you can have them at the same arbitrary points easily... now I'm thinking the only hard part is infinite input --it's seems that might not necessarily be hardcodable and could represent a difference
22:30:11 <korvo> Well, it's also talking about states of an FSM, and the way we represent I/O in an FSM is with states that are reading or writing.
22:30:34 <korvo> More abstractly, we talk about the "beep", which doesn't have to literally make an audio beep but should be an observable state.
22:30:55 <korvo> And the main application is Beeping Busy Beaver: https://www.sligocki.com/2021/03/06/beeping-busy-beaver/
22:31:41 <salpynx> ... i'll read the curernt Algebraic Brainfuck for more context. Infinite input seems like that's the only part of IO that seems like it might make a meaning ful difference, and even then i can conceive of infinte hardcoded input, it's that maybe you'd never be able begin the computation
22:33:35 <salpynx> FSMs read / write states can just be inserted or removed though? They are attached to computational states, that's a good way of conceptualising what I'm talking about (i think?)
22:37:04 <salpynx> for 'beep's being an observable state, i have used monitoring the state of an arbitrary waterclock in TWFM as a conceptual beep for IO, and for BCT i worked out a pattern matching output if any part of the data string matched a pattern, the portion is to be interpreted as output, so i think i have practically implemented pushing the def.n of 'beep' techinques :)
22:38:23 <korvo> Sure. I don't want to get bogged down in definitions as long as you've got the right idea. Consider video-game emulators; it'd be rather weird if an emulator *couldn't* reproduce an arbitrary code-execution (ACE) action, right?
22:39:15 <korvo> We want the emulator to be universal over all of the original observable states of the emulated machine, including the states that aren't typically encountered in normal usage. States that are only reached by highly-incompressible inputs.
22:39:59 <korvo> ...Ignore that last bit, unless you wanna talk probabalistically, I guess.
22:41:26 <salpynx> ooh, 'beeping busy beaver' I'd heard that mentioned a while back and was going to dig into what that meant. i'll do some reading, thx.
22:42:12 <korvo> TC-ness is really just kind of like what happens as our emulated machine goes to infinite time and space. Our emulator has to go infinite, too, and it has to do so in a faithful fashion.
22:43:11 <korvo> ("Faithful" in the category-theoretic sense: if two observable states of the emulator are distinct, then observations of the original machine will distinguish them too.)
22:44:45 <salpynx> i guess my default take is that 'beeps' are irrelevant (for computation), primarily because the def.n of beep is so wide, but i'm also quite interested in exploring / justifying that.
22:46:07 <salpynx> heh, I guess I think beeps are 'free'
22:52:13 <korvo> Well, as long as they're not in control flow, yeah, beeps don't interrupt composition. But looping over a beep, especially conditionally beeping in a big loop, should evoke Rice's theorem.
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23:22:54 <salpynx> korvo: i'm still reading, but it did surprise me that BBB(4) > BB(4) (considerably greater!), and it helps illustrate the difference. I'm still working through what it means. However this statement from SA "Clearly BBB(n) ≥ BB(n) for all n, since we could designate the state from which M halts as its beep state. " seems wrong to me -- beeping on the halt state gives you 1 beep? What am I missing here?
23:27:20 <salpynx> I accept that BBB(4) is greater than BB(4), because i've seen an example (well, trust the statement that one exists), but disagree with the 'clearly', and the stated reason seems trivially false.
23:35:07 <korvo> salpynx: BBB() gives the index of the last beep, not the number of beeps, in this framing.
23:39:03 <shachaf> int-e: Huh, do you mean trophy or something? I think I'm confused.
23:40:03 <salpynx> korvo: aha! that fixes it, i'll reprocess@
23:41:36 <int-e> shachaf: each trophy needs four stars and I got three with what I thought at the time was the last trophy
23:42:21 <int-e> well, with the corresponding combination of spells
23:42:23 <shachaf> Oh, got it, I thought you were saying there were more stars other than those.
23:42:52 <shachaf> I guess you flipped the switch.
23:43:37 <shachaf> Hmm, I don't remember what trophies I did and didn't do, because some of them were on another computer and some were with a friend on their computer.
23:44:38 <shachaf> I think we didn't finish goat+flip+flower. We made a bunch of progress on it but it was tricky.
23:46:14 <int-e> my cheat sheet looks like this; I haven't played since discovering the second animal. https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/bee-magic.png
23:46:25 <int-e> (spoilers obviously)
23:47:17 <shachaf> Oh, maybe I shouldn't have said a spoiler word.
23:48:29 <int-e> (blue centers mark torphys that are done
23:53:02 <int-e> I started assembling that map before I found the maphack... that was a waste of time :P
23:53:51 <b_jonas> where's this bee magic? apparently more than one of you are playing it and discussing it here, so I should add it to https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:B_jonas#Games_that_the_esolangs_community_plays
23:54:34 <int-e> https://epicpikaguy.itch.io/bee-magic
23:54:49 <int-e> windows version works in wine
23:55:35 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143890&oldid=141424 * B jonas * (+52) /* Games that the esolangs community plays */ Bee magic
23:56:01 <zzo38> I could not install Wine in my computer due to package manager conflicts. I don't know if some other people have similar problem.
23:56:01 <b_jonas> added it to the link, thanks
23:56:09 <zzo38> Do they have the DOS version?
23:57:13 <int-e> it works in a browser but my browser would forget all progress
23:57:26 <int-e> and no, not in lynx
23:58:03 <zzo38> If the rules can be written out properly then it would also be possible to make a separate implementation. I made a article also on esolang wiki with some of the games but I also wrote the rules of some of these games. (In some cases they are more complicated than I could mention there directly, such as Pokemon, and Magic: the Gathering.)
23:58:06 <int-e> probably not mosaic either but who knows, maybe they've added WebGL support in the meantime ;-)