00:16:24 <esolangs> [[Synth]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144489 * Avethenoul * (+3107) Created page with "'''Synth''' is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:Avethenoul]] as a digital synthesizer. It was largely inspired by [[Befunge]]. == Overview == Like Befunge, Synth uses single-byte commands and a stack. In fact, most of the commands are direct translat
00:17:18 <esolangs> [[User:Avethenoul]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144490 * Avethenoul * (+121) Created page with "Hello! I'm Ave, I make weird stuff in (mainly) C/CPP. I made [[Synth]] and Track (haven't made a page for the latter yet)"
00:17:58 <esolangs> [[Synth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144491&oldid=144489 * Avethenoul * (+1)
00:18:16 <esolangs> [[Synth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144492&oldid=144491 * Avethenoul * (-12)
00:20:23 <esolangs> [[Synth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144493&oldid=144492 * Avethenoul * (+64)
00:26:23 <esolangs> [[Synth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144494&oldid=144493 * Avethenoul * (+0)
00:30:00 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144495&oldid=144293 * Avethenoul * (+12) Added Synth to the list
00:40:20 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ShirAko * New user account
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00:45:01 <ais523> zzo38: ISO 2022 (equivalently Ecma-35) allows it to be longer than 2, although the feature is rarely used
00:46:51 <ais523> UTF-1 uses variable-length characters that can be more than 2 bytes long, and was intended to be ISO 2022 compatible, although I'm not sure it actually fits the letter of the standard
00:48:49 <zzo38> Wikipedia says UTF-1 is using "designate other code set with standard return", rather than the ISO 2022 multibyte character selection codes.
00:50:05 <zzo38> (I also think that a "designate other code set with standard return" should be also done for TRON-8 encoding, since the control characters can then be used for the terminal control codes or whatever other control codes you need, since the character codes do not use 0x00 to 0x20 and 0x7F.)
00:53:30 <ais523> I implemented an ISO 2022 decoder just a few days ago, so this is fairly fresh in my mind
00:55:21 <ais523> DOCS-WSR is basically used for any character set that's able to use the sequence 0x1B 0x25 0x40 to specify "switch to ISO 2022"
00:55:37 <ais523> which might be because it decodes to ESC % @ or because it isn't being used for anything else and so is unambiguous
00:56:21 <ais523> character sets that can't do that, like UTF-16, have to be "without standard return" even though they can often in practice switch back by encoding ESC % @
00:58:02 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144496&oldid=144488 * ShirAko * (+221) /* Introductions */
00:58:38 <ais523> note that if a character set doesn't use 0x00 to 0x1F nor 0x80 to 0x9F, and uses a consistent number of bytes per character, it doesn't necessarily have to be an "other character set" as you can fit it into the ISO 2022 framework by splitting it into two halves
00:58:51 <esolangs> [[User:ShirAko]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144497 * ShirAko * (+89) Created page with "Hi! I'm shirAko. I want to contribute here by explaining some unclear parts in some pages"
00:59:25 <zzo38> Yes, I know that too (although I think ISO 2022 also has a standard meaning of 0x20 and 0x7F as well).
00:59:28 <ais523> e.g. Latin-1 is explicitly considered an ISO 2022 character set even though it doesn't use any of the ISO 2022 features
00:59:49 <ais523> you can turn off the standard meanings while staying within ISO 2022
01:00:15 <ais523> …although then you won't be able to encode SPACE and DEL until you switch to a different 94-set
01:00:33 <zzo38> (TRON-8 does use 0x80 to 0x9F though (although not as control characters), but does not use 0x00 to 0x20 and 0x7F)
01:00:37 <ais523> because it supports both 96-sets and 94-sets and you can map either to 0x20-0x7F and 0xA0-0xFF
01:00:55 <ais523> it should be DOCS, then
01:01:11 <zzo38> I thought that 96-sets cannot be designated as G0
01:01:47 <ais523> they can't be designated as G0, but they can be designated as GL by making it point to G1, G2 or G3
01:02:55 <ais523> which causes 0x20 and 0x7F to become characters from the 96-set rather than the usual SPACE and DEL
01:03:11 <zzo38> OK, yes, you can do that (although that does not seem useful when using 8-bit character codes; it may be useful if you need to use 7-bit character codes, though)
01:04:20 <ais523> right, in practice I assume 96-sets are mostly only used in GL because you don't have a GR
01:04:47 <ais523> e.g. the 7-bit version of Latin-1 uses SO and SI to, in effect, switch the high bit on and off
01:08:28 <korvo> https://arxiv.org/abs/2211.11118v4 Cool paper, if a little obvious: combinator algebras of applicative trees each have an operad.
01:08:57 <ais523> I did, however, write tests to make sure that Latin-1 Supplemental still worked if someone mapped it over the ASCII range for whatever reason
01:09:04 <korvo> They propose that this is actually a free-forgetful adjunction, which would be quite cool if true; I'm not fully convinced of it yet.
01:11:07 <ais523> "a" + "free" looks so confusing to me, "free" in category theory normally gets qualified with "the"
01:11:25 <ais523> although I guess the set of generators matters, so there is more than one
01:16:51 <korvo> Oh, it'd be *the* free operad for a given basis. But there are many free-forgetful adjunctions in other domains.
01:17:45 <korvo> Honestly, the idea of forgetting an algebra is the more alluring one. This looks a lot like graph reduction.
01:40:41 <zzo38> I had been implementing a part of ISO 2022 encoder that is applicable for DER
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04:05:26 <esolangs> [[Tixy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144498 * Corbin * (+1150) Stub an interesting art project from a few years ago.
04:07:52 <esolangs> [[FXYT]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144499&oldid=123355 * Corbin * (+2) Bluelink Tixy.
04:57:04 <zzo38> I am making a program to convert a text format into the ASN.1 DER. Currently ISO 2022 is not fully implemented, but I intend to implement this feature later. So, it is why I had asked some of the things relating to it.
04:57:33 <zzo38> (And, I suppose one circumstance where you might not have 8-bit characters is MIDI, so in that case you would use 7-bit characters.)
05:05:20 <zzo38> Do you like this text-bsaed file format?
05:16:52 <esolangs> [[Anything]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144500&oldid=144475 * Unname4798 * (+36) deletion request
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07:27:20 <iddi01> !ztest another_rush_program (>)*8-----<<(+)*23<<(-)*33<<(+)*65>(+)*33<<(-)*44<(-)*21>>[(>)*9(>[+[+[--[-[-[(-[{(+)*26(+[{(+)*92(+.)*24(>(+)*116(+.)*24)*-1}])%25}])%23]]]]]])*25]<<(---+)*-1
07:27:21 <zemhill> iddi01.another_rush_program: points 6.45, score 26.00, rank 10/47 (+3)
07:27:48 <iddi01> !zjoust another_rush_program (>)*8-----<<(+)*23<<(-)*33<<(+)*65>(+)*33<<(-)*44<(-)*21>>[(>)*9(>[+[+[--[-[-[(-[{(+)*26(+[{(+)*92(+.)*24(>(+)*116(+.)*24)*-1}])%25}])%23]]]]]])*25]<<(---+)*-1
07:27:48 <zemhill> iddi01.another_rush_program: points 6.45, score 26.00, rank 10/47 (+3)
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07:28:32 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {ircMsgServer = "libera", ircMsgLBName = "lambdabot", ircMsgPrefix = "iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:8d60:d5b0:dacd:a37a:e880", ircMsgCommand = "PRIVMSG", ircMsgParams = ["#
07:28:32 <lambdabot> esolangs",":@echo test"]} target:#esolangs rest:"test"
07:29:15 <fungot> @echo ^echo @echo ^echo
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07:30:53 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
07:31:07 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search
07:31:07 <lambdabot> seen slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
07:33:53 <iddi01> @bf ,[.>,]<[<]>[.>]!@bf ,[.>,]<[<]>[.>]!
07:36:14 <iddi01> ^bf ,[.>,]<[<]>[.>]!^echo ^bf ,[.>,]<[<]>[.>]!
07:36:14 <fungot> ^echo ^bf ,[.>,]<[<]>[.>]!^echo ^bf ,[.>,]<[<]>[.>]!
07:36:57 <lambdabot> bf <expr>. Evaluate a brainf*ck expression
07:37:51 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {ircMsgServer = "libera", ircMsgLBName = "lambdabot", ircMsgPrefix = "iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:8d60:d5b0:dacd:a37a:e880", ircMsgCommand = "PRIVMSG", ircMsgParams = ["#
07:37:51 <lambdabot> esolangs",":?echo test"]} target:#esolangs rest:"test"
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07:48:15 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {ircMsgServer = "libera", ircMsgLBName = "lambdabot", ircMsgPrefix = "iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:8d60:d5b0:dacd:a37a:e880", ircMsgCommand = "PRIVMSG", ircMsgParams = ["#
07:48:15 <lambdabot> esolangs",":?echo #echo"]} target:#esolangs rest:"#echo"
07:49:33 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {ircMsgServer = "libera", ircMsgLBName = "lambdabot", ircMsgPrefix = "iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:8d60:d5b0:dacd:a37a:e880", ircMsgCommand = "PRIVMSG", ircMsgParams = ["#
07:49:34 <lambdabot> esolangs",":?echo ?echo"]} target:#esolangs rest:"?echo"
07:54:22 <lambdabot> yin says: haskell is nice; sometimes I get annoyed at all its imperfections but then i try another languages and I remember to be grateful
07:55:03 <lambdabot> ion says: @@ @remember lambdabot @quote
07:55:43 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
07:55:59 <lambdabot> bf <expr>. Evaluate a brainf*ck expression
07:58:13 <iddi01> ^echo `echo nope, too few bots to attempt, really giving up this time
07:58:13 <fungot> `echo nope, too few bots to attempt, really giving up this time `echo nope, too few bots to attempt, really giving up this time
07:58:15 <HackEso> nope, too few bots to attempt, really giving up this time `echo nope, too few bots to attempt, really giving up this time
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08:16:30 <b_jonas> yeah, I really should document the basics of how to use perlbot so that you can try with that too
08:16:40 <b_jonas> since it is quite powerful
08:46:07 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144501&oldid=143482 * Iddi01 * (+377) /* Tripwire avoidance */ Added the strategy that is quite effective and used by several programs, most notably atom (i literally copied it here)
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11:26:14 <esolangs> [[Talk:Anything]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144502&oldid=144481 * Baldibacak * (+1)
11:44:36 <baldibacak> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GzB_9dWAME
11:53:28 <esolangs> [[Talk:Anything]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144503&oldid=144502 * Ractangle * (-1) okay why did you do that?
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12:11:47 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Chukharev * New user account
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13:31:18 <esolangs> [[User:Cycwin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144504&oldid=143291 * Cycwin * (+55)
13:31:27 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144505&oldid=142813 * Shriansh * (+52)
13:32:28 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144506&oldid=144505 * Shriansh * (+20)
13:33:36 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144507&oldid=144506 * Shriansh * (+6)
13:44:00 <esolangs> [[Nullthing]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144508 * Shriansh * (+167) Created page with "= Nullthing == This is a programming language created by user:Shriansh === Commands== {| class="wikitable" |- ! Command !! Brainfuck |- |" " or 1 Space |''['' |- |}"
13:45:36 <esolangs> [[Nullthing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144509&oldid=144508 * Shriansh * (-165) Replaced content with "aw"
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14:01:59 <esolangs> [[Ecliptica]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144510&oldid=144485 * Baldibacak * (+138) /* Commands */
14:36:39 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144511&oldid=143812 * Baldibacak * (+67) /* Implementations */
14:37:33 <wWwwW> i want to make a new golflang(my old one is bad)
14:37:43 <wWwwW> send me some operators or suggestion
14:37:49 <wWwwW> and ill try to put it together
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14:45:48 <HackEso> aoc Advent of Code (AoC) is a series of programming puzzles that some regulars enjoy, found at "https://adventofcode.com/about"
14:46:27 <wib_jonas> wWwwW: ^ try to solve some of these, or some of Spoj, and you'll find what kind of primitives are useful for them
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15:00:54 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144512&oldid=144511 * Baldibacak * (+0) /* Ecliptica */
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15:01:22 <wWwwW> AoC is not currently running and spoj is down
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15:04:18 <sprout> wWwwW: you can do the previous years, they're all open
15:10:29 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144513&oldid=144461 * Baldibacak * (+38)
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15:53:38 <wib_jonas> wWwwW: sorry, I think Spoj may have moved to https://www.spoj.com/
15:54:18 <wib_jonas> a similar popular one is ProjectEuler, but I never looked into that one and don't know if it's any good. maybe some of the regulars know.
15:54:33 <wWwwW> i cant even understand that shit
15:54:38 <wib_jonas> I also haven't interacted with Spoj for many years, so I don't know its status long ago\
15:54:50 <wib_jonas> I can definitely recommend Advent of Code though
15:57:52 <int-e> PE problems tend to have background theory (usually in combinatorics or number theory) that enable fast algorithms. The first few problems are misleading if you want to get a taste for what it's like.
15:59:24 <wib_jonas> int-e: ok, so what would you recommend here? just Advent of Code?
16:02:37 <int-e> The first few days of AoC each year to get started? The first few PE problems are probably fine too, if you can digest the formal specifications. I haven't looked at SPOJ in ages, I don't know whether they have discoverable easy problems. (I also don't know whether they reserve the right to train AI on your code submissions these days or whether they're still non-commercial on that front.)
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16:39:31 <fizzie> I think I did the first 100 PE problems, and then no more.
16:42:37 <fizzie> Project Euler, which was just talked about above.
16:43:11 <fizzie> There's also get Code Golf Stack Exchange, I hear it's pretty active, though at least on a cursory glance they don't have a tag or anything for picking a "representative" set of problems.
16:43:21 <fizzie> Doing all 14214 might be a bit much.
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16:43:29 <baldibacak> is there anyone knows how to code in c
16:43:58 <baldibacak> i made an brainfuck like esolang in python but its god damn slow
16:44:06 <fizzie> Oh, golf.shinh.org seems to be still up and running too? For some reason I thought it wasn't.
16:44:13 <baldibacak> prob all those if else elif statements
16:44:54 <wWwwW> you could use a translator(dont)
16:45:09 <wWwwW> why not just make the python ebtter instead of putting it in c
16:45:09 <baldibacak> also a tokenizer process that does that 2 times
16:45:09 <baldibacak> and also translators sucks code is so sucks they cant even understand lel
16:50:38 <esolangs> [[!aBF']] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144514&oldid=103864 * Ractangle * (+11) /* Examples */
16:50:50 <wWwwW> thx for gving me the sources
16:50:58 <wWwwW> my esolang is goin gud
16:52:05 <esolangs> [[!aBF']] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144515&oldid=144514 * Ractangle * (-52) There are no capital numbers
16:52:45 <baldibacak> wWwwW are you planing to make an esolang ?
16:53:48 <baldibacak> oh good can you write an hello world i just want to see the syntax
17:01:57 <baldibacak> wow that looks cool i made an brainfuck clone
17:09:51 <wWwwW> god this is ahrd to make lol
17:13:56 <int-e> . o O ( https://aesopsfables.org/F258_The-Fox-and-the-Grapes.html )
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17:28:24 <wib_jonas> fizzie: if you want a "representative set of problems" then there's https://rosettacode.org , but I think it's kind of broader scope. AoC or Project Euler or Spoj are focused on simple competition style algorithm problems only, while AoC has other types of programs where the focus may be on the IO methods or device access.
17:29:15 <fizzie> I guess the optimal set of problems to use when designing your golflang depends on what exactly you want to golf, anyway.
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17:57:37 <korvo> wWwwW: Project Euler isn't like the other suggestions; it's intended to be solvable on a whiteboard with clever maths, but most programmers use brute-force search over constraints instead.
17:58:00 <wWwwW> have a hard time understanding it lol
17:58:13 <wWwwW> its more for APL and UIUA ect.
17:58:21 <korvo> PE isn't bad but it's not going to help build your technique. Instead, I'd use PE as a challenge for language authors: how easy/hard is it to express those constraints in your language?
17:58:51 <wWwwW> ill be using AoC for now
17:58:58 <korvo> baldibacak: Have you seen RPython? It's the toolkit used to build PyPy. It makes fairly fast interpreters with optional JITs.
17:59:30 <wWwwW> ohno: https://adventofcode.com/2023/day/1 : k[^A`"string"^A(A<"\n"^$~0:>A|k((Ai#)1#)+((Ai#)""#)|i^@=k+
17:59:42 <wWwwW> my golflang is bad:(
17:59:50 <korvo> Here's a fairly serious Brainfuck interpreter in RPython. I don't claim that it's the fastest, but I will claim that it's faster than anything else I've compared it to. https://github.com/rpypkgs/rpypkgs/blob/main/bf/bf.py
18:01:41 <korvo> ...Actually that is not easy to read, huh? It's got algebraic optimizations and hash-consing. I bet that my DIVSPL interp is easier to read. https://github.com/rpypkgs/rpypkgs/blob/main/divspl/divspl.py
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18:24:19 <fizzie> I've been doing (most of) AoC in Burlesque the last couple of years, it's kind of on-topic since it's a language written by a (former) channel regular.
18:24:33 <fizzie> 2023 day 1 part 1 was ln{:><J-]j[~.+ri}ms in Burlesque.
18:25:29 <fizzie> Part 2 was pretty long though: ln{iS{{j~!}j+]"1one2two3three4four5five6six7seven8eight9nine"{><}gBjfi2./+.}m[:nzJ-]j[~_+10ug}ms
18:26:08 <fizzie> (Not that my Burlesque solutions are "fully optimized" or anything.)
18:33:26 <b_jonas> I think there were also some evaluation servers that are more explicity golf-oriented
18:34:03 <b_jonas> http://terje2.frox25.no-ip.org/
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18:43:26 <b_jonas> servers like Spoj or AoC because they can check the correctness of your solution, whereas sites like Code golf SE or Rosetta code rely on the submitter's own diligence to test their own code. So I would recommend the former kind of site to wWwwW
18:44:52 <b_jonas> ah right, fizzie already pointed to anagolf
18:45:04 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah, those golf sites tend to have short lives
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18:51:24 <wWwwW> is my golflang code too long?
18:52:06 <wWwwW> https://adventofcode.com/2023/day/1 : k[^A`"string"^A(A<"\n"^$~0:>A|k((Ai#)1#)+((Ai#)""#)|i^@=k+
18:55:00 <wWwwW> thats just @`"put input here"
18:56:17 <wWwwW> the "put inpout here
18:57:08 <baldibacak> in my esolang cat program looks like this [iO]
18:57:18 <korvo> wWwwW: How did you test your AoC program?
18:57:50 <korvo> baldibacak: adventofcode.com, a series of code challenges.
18:57:55 <wWwwW> korvo: i just hoped its correct tbh. i wont make an interpreter now cuz its in workign stages and itm would be a waste of time cuz maybe i change something
18:58:19 <korvo> wWwwW: You should know the story of the first mathematician to ever program a computer.
18:58:49 <korvo> The mathematician carefully chose the theorem to implement, laid out its tables, and handwrote the machine code. They double-checked all of their work and proved several lemmas.
18:58:58 <korvo> They typed in the machine code... and it didn't work.
18:59:19 <korvo> baldibacak: Cool! Good luck.
18:59:27 <wWwwW> make an interpreter
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19:00:12 <korvo> wWwwW: Imagine where we'd be if that were the case for C++, Java, Rust, Python... Every popular language you rely upon was built iteratively, by alternating design and coding.
19:01:10 <korvo> baldibacak: 2024's challenges aren't published yet. Prior years are available; 2023 starts here: https://adventofcode.com/2023/day/1
19:01:50 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144516&oldid=144327 * B jonas * (+383)
19:02:07 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:B_jonas#Programming_contest_or_golf_problem_sets,_ideally_with_evaluation_server started to take notes
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19:04:37 <baldibacak> i give up i cant solve this in my esolang
19:04:55 <wWwwW> if its TC then ya can
19:05:35 <baldibacak> well it is because every bf code can be rewritten in it just it uses signed 64 bit cells so not every bf code will work in it sadly
19:05:56 <wWwwW> if its has infinite cells yes it will
19:05:59 <korvo> baldibacak: It might help to have a hint about the algorithm. The approach I sketched just now, in Python, is to split the input into lines, duplicate each line, and search for the first and last digit in the line.
19:06:16 <korvo> Then they can be used to build an integer which is added to a running total.
19:08:21 <wWwwW> aaaaaa idk how to implement my golflang
19:09:55 <korvo> wWwwW: You'll need to understand a little bit of parsing theory. Look up "recursive descent parsing" to get started. Ask questions if you have them; it's a notoriously tough subject.
19:10:09 <korvo> You *cannot* write proglangs without parsing theory, though, so you'll have to do it at some point.
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19:34:52 <baldibacak> the best feeling in the world is seing your esolang being used
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20:02:21 <korvo> baldibacak: https://mssun.github.io/rpython-by-example/ Maybe you'll find this interesting. I just found it today.
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20:41:14 <esolangs> [[User:Robotosaurus6502]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144517&oldid=142688 * Robotosaurus6502 * (+9)
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20:55:55 <esolangs> [[Talk:Fuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144518 * Baldibacak * (+32) Created page with "*this is the best esolang no cap"
21:09:26 <esolangs> [[10 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144519&oldid=141718 * Ractangle * (+2) why would you literally put the implemented category if the language DOESN'T HAVE AN INTERPRETER
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21:13:46 <esolangs> [[1 bytes :3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144520&oldid=137478 * Ractangle * (+2) It doesn't work here you think
21:21:42 <esolangs> [[Fuck-brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144521&oldid=139711 * Baldibacak * (+61) /* Interpreters */
21:27:49 <b_jonas> question about CSS. if you have a CSS selector saying `.foo + .bar`, that matches an element with class bar that immediately follows an element with class foo, as in, they're siblings with no other elements between them. do I understand it right that the two elements still count as siblings if there's plain text between them (not just whitespace but other text)?
21:38:20 <int-e> "Non-element nodes (e.g. text between elements) are ignored when considering the adjacency of elements." https://drafts.csswg.org/selectors/#adjacent-sibling-combinators and the older index-based selectors do the same, "Standalone text and other non-element nodes are not counted when calculating the position of an element in its list of siblings; index numbering starts at 1."...
21:38:26 <int-e> ...https://www.w3.org/TR/selectors-3/#structural-pseudos
21:39:31 <esolangs> [[Ecliptica]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144522&oldid=144510 * Baldibacak * (+99)
21:40:49 <int-e> oh, there are comments too.
21:46:30 <b_jonas> this was causing a mysterious bug that I'd been too lazy to debug until today
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22:02:18 <esolangs> [[10 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144523&oldid=144519 * Baldibacak * (+271) /* Interpreters */
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22:04:09 <baldibacak> ractangle i made an interpreter for it
22:04:18 <baldibacak> not exactly interpreter but a converter
22:06:57 <esolangs> [[10 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144524&oldid=144523 * Baldibacak * (+127) /* Hello, World! */
22:09:32 <esolangs> [[Fuck-brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144525&oldid=144521 * Baldibacak * (+75) /* Ecliptica */
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22:12:28 <esolangs> [[User:Superstitionfreeblog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144526&oldid=144459 * Superstitionfreeblog * (+2310)
22:15:14 <esolangs> [[User:Superstitionfreeblog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144527&oldid=144526 * Superstitionfreeblog * (+37) /* Shebang Support */
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23:21:38 <zzo38> I wanted to make up a terminal emulator, two of the significant features being security features (I have some ideas about how to do this, but I don't know everything) and proper support for non-Unicode text (I have some ideas about this too).
23:23:11 <zzo38> About security features, some things might not work for remote programs (e.g. SSH), but some things can be used with local and remote programs.
23:25:55 <zzo38> One thing I had wanted is some kind of "universal escape code" that is recognized anywhere. Another thing is if it can somehow check which programs are running, and also, if the terminal emulator can somehow cancel sending responses that it sent due to a previous request but have not yet been received by the application program.
23:25:59 <zzo38> Is such a thing like that possible?
23:28:29 <zzo38> There had also been mentioning security issues with checksums. I thought that: any escape sequence to select a multi-byte character encoding (even if no characters are then received) disables the checksum capability; this feature is reset by clearing the screen while no multi-byte character encodings are selected (and cannot otherwise be reset).
23:33:47 <b_jonas> zzo38: the program reading the terminal can flush the read queue, but there's a race condition for that, so it's rarely useful.
23:38:03 <zzo38> I mean if the terminal emulator can somehow prevent sending a response that had already been sent.
23:38:41 <zzo38> If the application program is managing it then another way would be to include something to request a response from the terminal, and then the application program ignores everything that comes before that response.
23:39:08 <zzo38> (Although, I don't know if shells such as GNU bash, or other programs, have such capabilities)
23:40:13 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, but the other problem with that is that you don't actually want to discard or ignore everything up to the response to your request, because that will annoy the user if they typed something that you didn't have time to process yet
23:41:47 <zzo38> Yes, there is also that issue too.
23:43:25 <zzo38> Which is, what I thought, to have the terminal emulator to handle this in the other way
23:46:58 <b_jonas> that said, you can already kind of find the identifiable response, it's just somewhat ugly: just repeatedly position the cursor to random locations on the screen then read back the position using that cursor position reading command, and find the sequence where you get matching positions. this is slightly complicated by the fact that the positions are clamped into the screen size, but you can work that
23:47:30 <b_jonas> ais523's library is mostly based around the cursor position read command, though it uses that to figure out the screen size and the character encoding
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23:53:09 <zzo38> There are sometimes when you deliberately don't want to accept user input early. Although, sometimes it might be acceptable if it is only control characters that are not accepted early but for graphic characters to be accepted early; it can avoid executing some things by accident that were not intended to be, but you can still type a part of a command early.
23:54:18 <zzo38> I also don't know what ways involving inspecting the process state (that the terminal is connected to), could achieve anything, although that will not work for remote programs anyways.
23:57:19 <zzo38> For display, I had considered a eight byte format with: 32-bit character code, 8-bit character code, 8-bit colour code, 16-bit extra field.
23:58:46 <zzo38> The extra field can include attributes such as underline, flashy, etc; and can also include width field (normal, left half, right half, or picture), and one bit specifying the format of the 32-bit character code (TRON-32 or stateless-ISO-2022; in the latter case the low 7-bits of the 8-bit character code are also significant). Is it enough or something wrong?
23:59:06 <zzo38> (I think that true colour text is not necessary; sixteen background colours and sixteen foreground colours is good enough.)