< 1730279227 274601 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :iddi01.polexchange: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-12)
< 1730279393 74909 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:8d60:d5b0:dacd:a37a:e880 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lymia: does your evolver include any programs from zemhill? would like to see how my another_rush_program does.
< 1730279691 646585 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Nope.
< 1730279698 957419 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :The evolver programs are in a specific format that is not a BFJoust program.
< 1730279795 207923 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:8d60:d5b0:dacd:a37a:e880 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: found out roughly the pattern of the bug: when any change is made to the hill, the previous worst-scoring program will display all losses against anything but the changed (or newly submitted) program, while the games page works correctly.
< 1730279851 547612 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :These programs are a linear list of opcodes that is then translated into a bfjoust format.
< 1730279862 396285 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :No actual recursive structure in the evolver's IR.
< 1730280517 742848 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1730280539 223246 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:8d60:d5b0:dacd:a37a:e880 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1730280710 192782 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Behavior of this evolver is quite interesting.
< 1730280743 355813 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :So far, I see it getting caught in cycles of defense winning and then alternatively offense winning.
< 1730280903 145394 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Trying an adjusted version with tweaked parameters. Seems it got caught in a plateou before it used a lot of the underlying IR features or interesting bots emerged.
< 1730280932 953164 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1730281860 793055 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :isn't the hill 'bug' just the intended behaviour of the 47th slot? I was thinking of the 47th slot as already off the hill. A new program that does better than 47th place always pushes the previous 47th slot out, even if the Markov adjusted scoring might have placed it higher
< 1730281953 542496 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a bit confusing, but i think it it justified. It's what allows 47th to function as a pre-hill slot for _any_ new submission
< 1730282099 753967 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Given how it works, when a change is made, I don't think the "previous worst-scoring program" should show up at all, because it's not even on the hill at that point.
< 1730282232 529666 :ursa-major!114efe6c39@2a03:6000:1812:100::11f3 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1730282252 823293 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the Markov scoring can theoretically allow the previous worst scoring program to score higher than other programs on the hill based on the re-scoring from the new arrival... but it isn't included in the rescoring
< 1730282261 102430 :ManDeJan!3da94070ba@user/mandejan QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
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< 1730282488 544509 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you see that sort of change with the big swing changes +3 / -3, i think there have been shifts of 6 for some warriors when adding a new opponent. If 47th place happened to get a +6 position boost, it would still be viable on the hill (but it's booted before this is calculated (i believe))
< 1730282510 309637 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes. It picks what slot to replace (`replaced = @hill.include?(newprog) ? newprog : @hill.ranking[-1]`) before recomputing the scores.
< 1730282566 142398 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :But that also means the program that got replaced should not show up in breakdown.txt (or the web equivalent) at all.
< 1730282645 543225 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i don't it's a bug, but i understand it can look unfair. I rationalised it by considering a warrior that has dropped to 47th is already off the hill and is merely occupying the staging slot
< 1730282678 456985 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Blargh, may have found a way to infinite-to-indefinite loop gearlance.
< 1730282684 380765 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Evolver keeps crashing in gearlance-derived code.
< 1730282712 359691 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :In particular, it's a dead freeze during hill evaluation on all cores. :c
< 1730282766 119624 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Although I guess if you *update* a program (ratherthan adding a new one), the previous slot 47 program would still be there. But in that case it shouldn't get any special treatment. It might even still rise up in the ranks.
< 1730282861 885845 :ursa-major!114efe6c39@2a03:6000:1812:100::11f3 JOIN #esolangs ursa-major :Bailey Bjornstad
< 1730282876 66093 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, that's hard to use information. There's *some* code usage pattern that hangs gearlance, that my evolver seems to produce fairly often.
< 1730282890 554810 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Will need to add in more insturmentation when I'm awake. I was hoping I could just leave it running overnight. u.u;
< 1730282908 885714 :ManDeJan!3da94070ba@user/mandejan JOIN #esolangs ManDeJan :ManDeJan
< 1730282921 30212 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :For example after that iddi01.polexchange submission, web.test is now technically rank 46; its breakdown shows it losing fully to all, but the game viewer disagrees. Which I think _is_ a bug.
< 1730282980 810336 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Doesn't apply to breakdown.txt, since that's just for the most recent submission.)
< 1730283182 566983 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest best_on_hill ><----->(+++((+)*17-(>>-((-)*14>++++((+((++[>(-)*13>+(+>[(-)*12[+]])*-1]{})*-1{})*-1)*21970)*22252)*-1)*-1)*31493)*-1.(-)*67+<+-+>.(>-(-(-)*165-++(+)*71(+)*227(+)*106[(>->(+)*126+(+)*217+)*549{{}}])*-1)*-1
< 1730283182 812500 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lymia.best_on_hill: points -8.57, score 12.84, rank 46/47
< 1730283185 350993 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ooh, I wonder if it's a shallow-copy problem.
< 1730283204 795738 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh, that is interesting. web.test shows a win against iddi01.polexchange, which must be automatically granted.
< 1730283204 880321 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Best program on the evolver hill, so the thing that crashes gearlance is likely somehow related to its structure.
< 1730283250 199794 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1730283280 816188 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The supposedly non-mutating Results#replace method does a shallow copy of the object (with the `dup` method), which I think might leave the data array being a reference to the same result list.
< 1730283350 125782 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Going to take a close look at `{})` later, looks pretty suspicious for being a potential evaluation killer.
< 1730283528 941936 :dcreager!a9e780c4d1@2a03:6000:1812:100::136b JOIN #esolangs dcreager :Douglas Creager
< 1730283591 693763 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Isn't the behaviour: A new submission always kicks out the 47th slot, before running combat. A updated warrior runs the hill combat on everything but the 47th slot, and potentially boosts 47th by one, or leaves it unchanged at 47th.
< 1730283683 684925 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :For an updated warrior, it should run the hill combat on everything (including the 47th slot), and should be able to potentially boost it by more thann one if the scoring works out that way.
< 1730283705 55228 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The only special thing about the 47th slot should be that it's the program that will get kicked out for a new submission.
< 1730283723 669704 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's not supposed to have any special behavior when an existing program is updated.
< 1730283882 97565 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, that makes sense, but it looks like if web.test were included in the full re-run, it should have done better
< 1730283898 499837 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest web_test >(+)*21[>[-[++[(+)*25[-]>]]>](-)*25]
< 1730283898 705912 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx.web_test: points -7.02, score 14.60, rank 43/47
< 1730284042 388099 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, I was describing the intended behavior, not the actual one. :)
< 1730284069 54484 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i think that's a representative test, even though its going to be drawing with itself so the real results will be slightly off
< 1730284212 246120 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, I get you now, so there is a specific 47th slot bug when warriors are updated, but otherwise the 47th slot behaviour seems correct?
< 1730284244 125349 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes... ish. I haven't checked if there's some other breakdown weirdness on new submissions rather than only on updates.
< 1730284258 119700 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :FWIW it will *never* do a real "full re-run", because only one program at a time can change, so the majority of the O(n^2) results (the ones between two unmodified program) are still valid. So technically what it does is, before doing anything else, the newly submitted code is evaluated against all existing 47 programs.
< 1730284300 432715 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :One of those results, the one between the new submission and whatever it will be replacing, is supposed to then be ignored. But it's easiest to compute it, given the way gearlanced's test function works; it has the entire existing hill already pre-parsed as "left program" entries, and the new code is evaluated as the "right program" to produce the results.
< 1730284312 966727 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :When it isn't crashing, the evolver is producing some awful defense programs.
< 1730284326 332420 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good to see there are some on the hill, and it isn't just pure rusher meta.
< 1730284369 395964 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lymia.hszr-g1423h1n2-remote-job: points -4.02, score 16.14, rank 34/47
< 1730284466 215370 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my synanceia was an attempt at a defense only strategy, use the opponents agression against it, in a tai chi / taoist way. The current iteration is too finely tuned, which explains the -8 drop. The original was more natural, but no longer places
< 1730284481 187900 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :That pushed web.test down to rank 47, and its breakdown is still broken (heh) against all but the new submission.
< 1730284500 527741 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Though I think that might just be "sticky badness" from the fact that it doesn't actually ever recompute the results.
< 1730284564 935894 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :So if web.test somehow got that "all losses" data in the result matrix, it'll stay that way.
< 1730284613 994731 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Can't really tell if/how the shallow copy issue would cause that behavior, but it seems wrong on principle, so I'll adjust it anyway. (Though not now, I'm trying to get to work.)
< 1730284685 503437 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for the record, none of my submissions were trying to exploit bugs, real or imagined. Despite the name, 1337 only aimed to get a score of 13.37, and that Unicode issue in kalb was unintentional -- it was in comments and AFAICT it behaved the same with and w/o comments on every tape length
< 1730284729 82717 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, I don't think the Unicode thing was broken on the hill until I updated it.
< 1730284761 24185 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It was using a line-oriented protocol that didn't care about byte lengths of things.
< 1730284807 990781 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :What broke it was switching to one that uses length-delimited records (and then counting code points rather than bytes).
< 1730284924 394271 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Incidentally, how exactly does it draw a heart? That wasn't quite clear to me.
< 1730285003 330320 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1730285011 106484 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I gtg, but Lymia i'm interested in the results of the evolver and the `{})` investigation. I'll check logs later
< 1730285049 261093 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: yes, the last slot is effectively off the hill, it's shown in the hill so that when you submit a program you can see the results of all its games, including the ones with the program in the last slot, or all its results if the newly submitted program goes into the last slot
< 1730285209 59038 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh, no, fizzie explicitly contradicts that above, so I'm wrong
< 1730285217 676452 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: the heart drawing code is pre-calculated, once it establishes the field width it chooses the best resolution from a set of options
< 1730285248 208590 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :in that case take what I said as how I think this should work
< 1730285305 267688 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: that was along the lines of how I was thinking about it too
< 1730285355 77839 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the heart drawing can be seen in this game browser, unfortunately it's not linked from the matrix to make it obvious: https://zem.fi/bfjoust/game/#joust,web.salpynx_kalb,web.salpynx_kalb,5e7e742
< 1730285465 839836 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hehe, heart drawing program
< 1730285490 146548 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :desing rationale: sufficiently complex behaviour seems to get results, and is hard to defend against, the direction changes required for drawing mimic good decoys found in other bots
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< 1730286135 100920 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1730286680 723905 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :what the heck! the new REPL in python 3.13 doesn't let you enter an EOF with F6. you have to press control-Z or control-D. this is annoying.
> 1730286990 895688 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pyfuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144562 5* 03ShirAko 5* (+20714) 10Created Pyfuck programming language
> 1730287089 58756 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07JSfuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144563 5* 03ShirAko 5* (+20) 10redirected to JSFuck
< 1730287185 817221 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, but it also uses bash readline-like keys rather than ones similar to the windows terminal ones, so it won't be a problem
< 1730287195 652284 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :those are distinct enough that I probably won't confuse them
< 1730288131 557244 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1730288186 328452 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07JSFuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144564&oldid=142829 5* 03ShirAko 5* (-35) 10JSFuck doesn't seem to be a BrainFuck derivative
> 1730288458 632106 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sucks14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144565 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+816) 10Created page with "'''Sucks''' is a derivative of [[Suc]] by [[User:ChuckEsoteric08]] ==Description== It's syntax is very similar to Suc, but with following additions: IN x Would input a number and store it in register x CIN x Would input byte x and store it's value in reigster x
> 1730288677 419212 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pyfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144566&oldid=144562 5* 03ShirAko 5* (-20694) 10Created redirect to PyFuck
> 1730288765 588299 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PyFuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144567 5* 03ShirAko 5* (+20848) 10Created page (from Pyfuck, just renaming)
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> 1730289093 271448 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0710 114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144568&oldid=144524 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-2) 10Shout out to the person who implemented this
> 1730289247 496939 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PyChr14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144569 5* 03ShirAko 5* (+17644) 10Created PyChr page
< 1730289260 994745 :dcreager!a9e780c4d1@2a03:6000:1812:100::136b JOIN #esolangs dcreager :Douglas Creager
< 1730289264 513415 :ManDeJan!3da94070ba@user/mandejan JOIN #esolangs ManDeJan :ManDeJan
< 1730289269 492921 :ursa-major!114efe6c39@2a03:6000:1812:100::11f3 JOIN #esolangs ursa-major :Bailey Bjornstad
> 1730289340 238524 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144570&oldid=144561 5* 03ShirAko 5* (+25) 10Added PyChr and PyFuck
> 1730289761 949816 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:-25 bytes (O o)14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144571 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+342) 10Created page with " :The implementation must has -25 bytes. So YOU CAN NEVER IMPLEMENT THIS!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
WHO THE GIVES A LIVING FUCK ABOUT YOUR RESTRICTIONS?~~~"
> 1730290268 621137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* 10moved [[02Stakc10]] to [[Stakc/Old]]
> 1730290305 226295 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:ChuckEsoteric0814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144574&oldid=142456 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+27) 10/* Things I made */
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< 1730291537 730731 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
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< 1730291600 365023 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Addressed that deep-copy thing, which may or may not fix the game breakdowns.
< 1730291626 925236 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Simply *restarting* it has fixed the breakdown for web.test, but that's to be expected, there *is* a full recomputation of all scores at startup.)
< 1730291660 533630 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also just as a reminder, the rank deltas will be nonsense until the next submission.
< 1730292374 339026 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1730292537 824124 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07..:14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144575 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+39) 10Redirected page to [[Colon period period colon]]
< 1730292557 320280 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wWwwW
< 1730292689 787348 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :helllllo
> 1730293256 507582 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:FROSTWIRE-66614]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144576&oldid=144560 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+174) 10/* complete basis? */
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< 1730295206 675022 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services.libera.chat MODE #esolangs +v :esolangs
> 1730295228 662379 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stakc14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144577&oldid=144573 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+1190) 10Removed redirect to [[Stakc/Old]]
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> 1730295263 253280 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:ChuckEsoteric0814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144578&oldid=144574 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+11) 10/* 2024 */
< 1730295273 436839 :riv!river@tilde.team/user/river JOIN #esolangs river :My real name
> 1730295368 441570 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stakc14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144579&oldid=144577 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+23) 10
< 1730295371 412489 :m5zs7k_!aquares@web10.mydevil.net NICK :m5zs7k
> 1730295411 203922 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stakc14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144580&oldid=144579 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+14) 10/* Documentation */
> 1730295850 788029 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PyFuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144581&oldid=144567 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* Variants */. is ambiguous
> 1730296415 981792 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sickfrog14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144582&oldid=98757 5* 03Qawtykit 5* (+7) 10fixed examples
< 1730297121 350656 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1730297474 21691 :user3456!user3456@user/user3456 JOIN #esolangs user3456 :user3456
> 1730297664 139486 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Xuki14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144583&oldid=142031 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+30) 10/* Syntax */
> 1730297689 887595 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Xuki14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144584&oldid=144583 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-30) 10
> 1730297742 53087 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Xuki14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144585&oldid=144584 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+25) 10
< 1730297851 757872 :user3456!user3456@user/user3456 QUIT :Quit: I use ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1730297939 386490 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wWwwW
< 1730297987 417298 :user3456!user3456@user/user3456 JOIN #esolangs user3456 :user3456
> 1730298138 150038 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Xuki14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144586&oldid=144585 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-14) 10/* Syntax */
> 1730299159 178848 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0725614]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144587&oldid=136683 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+83) 10/* Commands */
> 1730299408 321680 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0725614]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144588&oldid=144587 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-83) 10/* Commands */
< 1730299773 448405 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1730300511 691800 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1730301824 453132 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@46.50.4.44 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale
< 1730302256 375710 :baldibacak!~baldibaca@151.250.10.250 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] baldibacak
< 1730302262 436947 :baldibacak!~baldibaca@151.250.10.250 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi
< 1730302275 910291 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :helllllllllooooooo
< 1730302317 12303 :baldibacak!~baldibaca@151.250.10.250 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i made an converter for my esolang took me 3 hours to do now any code written in my esolang can be translated to c code
< 1730302317 558950 :baldibacak!~baldibaca@151.250.10.250 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i hope s o
> 1730302467 299904 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stakc14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144589&oldid=144580 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+77) 10/* Documentation */
> 1730302497 592100 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stakc14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144590&oldid=144589 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+26) 10
< 1730302502 465428 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 JOIN #esolangs Corbin :korvo
< 1730303137 525790 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1730304304 614668 :baldibacak!~baldibaca@151.250.10.250 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1730304389 38404 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 033cxpy 5* 10New user account
> 1730304709 255227 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144591&oldid=144496 5* 033cxpy 5* (+173) 10Introducing myself
< 1730304967 572110 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1730307046 471203 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1730307685 774840 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :b_jonas
< 1730307920 968758 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@46.50.4.44 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1730308112 532153 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stakc14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144592&oldid=144590 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+13) 10/* Documentation */
< 1730309055 401971 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1730309155 396104 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wWwwW
< 1730309223 136254 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmmmmmm
< 1730309228 108843 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :any good esolangs to learn?
< 1730309749 380236 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1730310300 351567 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wWwwW
< 1730311265 350688 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1730313581 350312 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wWwwW
< 1730313607 530981 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :plz tell me
< 1730314134 997855 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1730314227 788874 :shikhin!~shikhin@ahti.space CHGHOST ~shikhin :offtopia/offtopian
< 1730314515 350955 :baldibacak!~baldibaca@151.250.10.250 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] baldibacak
< 1730314532 350492 :baldibacak22!~baldibaca@151.250.10.250 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] baldibacak
< 1730314548 870895 :baldibacak22!~baldibaca@151.250.10.250 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1730314565 350748 :baldibacak70!~baldibaca@151.250.10.250 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] baldibacak
< 1730314602 678617 :baldibacak70!~baldibaca@151.250.10.250 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1730314607 835545 :baldibacak!~baldibaca@151.250.10.250 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi
< 1730314696 974706 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1730314699 390964 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1730316139 9752 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1730317677 116991 :baldibacak!~baldibaca@151.250.10.250 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a,
> 1730318998 346128 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[076 bytes of useless element14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144593&oldid=142321 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+52) 10/* Interpreters */
> 1730319088 618713 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[076 bytes of useless element14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144594&oldid=144593 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+81) 10/* Interpreters */
< 1730319125 226397 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :stupid question, if you have an execution environment that runs programs compiled from eg. C or C++, and its behavior is that if you read memory that isn't mapped you read zeros but if you write memory that isn't mapped it raises a fatal signal, is that for some reason worse or more stupid than if both reading and writing unmapped memory succeeds and automatically maps a new page initially filled with
< 1730319131 242634 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zeros?
> 1730319196 295213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07667384677014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144595&oldid=88392 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-95) 10/* Example */
< 1730320781 855846 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: Did find one crashing case in gearlance so far: `((((.)*0)*10000)*10000)*10000`
< 1730320938 705893 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :The check that disables redundant loops only checks that the instruction exists, not that it's executed.
< 1730320938 842172 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :> 10000^3 `mod` 2^32
< 1730320940 249891 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : 3567587328
< 1730320957 735824 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :> 10000^3 :: Int32
< 1730320959 202112 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : -727379968
< 1730321024 62957 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(just a thought, not even an idea because I don't know whether gearlance actually does (()a)b = ()n with n = a*b
< 1730321254 506404 :earend1!uid657395@user/utoneq JOIN #esolangs zut :zut
< 1730321674 424179 :baldibacak!~baldibaca@151.250.10.250 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1730322642 749694 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: memory that's readable but not writable is common in modern OSes, so that behaviour doesn't seem like something programs should be inherently incapable of handling
< 1730322692 75010 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I've used an execution environment where you could read zeros from NULL, which strikes me as potentially being a dubious idea but it is after all UB, so programs shouldn't be doing that?
< 1730322748 554879 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :makes sense
< 1730322750 418774 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(that said, I can't remember what language I was using – it was a long time ago)
< 1730322769 438416 :Everything!~Everythin@46.211.127.161 JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
< 1730322781 606182 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest hszr-g1870h5n2-willing-ride-2 https://dl.rimin.moe/paste/lymia/hszr-g1870h5n2-willi_14f1w9zcabmvvam4m2h1964xwm3d0q5c7g7raac4f6j3yps72kvy.bfjoust
< 1730322784 16028 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lymia.hszr-g1870h5n2-willing-ride-2: points -2.10, score 17.81, rank 27/47
< 1730322799 301910 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lymia: your evolver's [(-)*103] clear loop had me in stitches
< 1730322821 594667 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess that is technically a clear loop?
< 1730322881 435353 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't much care about which language as long as it allows unsafe low-level memory access by either use-after-free or indexing out of an array
< 1730322897 532426 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's a basic instruction for "adjust cell".
< 1730322903 89063 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's supposed to be used for decoys, but.
< 1730322904 226356 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Um.
< 1730322909 229039 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, isn't that program's first movement instruction a sure, because you might not want to support allocating at byte granularity, so if the user asks for a 127 byte long array you might actually give them a 128 byte long one
< 1730323563 125124 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it surprises me how many of the programs on the current hill are at least partially defensive
< 1730323601 223126 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I was thinking more along the lines of "you can unconditionally copy 16 bytes out of a string without first verifying that it's at least that long, without anything bad happening"
< 1730323623 51461 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, that's possible as well
< 1730323634 662965 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :operations like strlen() are very hard to implement efficiently without knowledge of the processor because you can't read even one byte beyond the terminating NUL, in case the next byte traps
< 1730323683 572128 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(an implementation in asm, or in C-with-extensions, can normally exploit the fact that if one address on a page doesn't trap the others won't either, but standard C doesn't let you do that and compilers will optimise on the assumption that you aren't)
< 1730323701 220106 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"where reading a memory address that […] is currently mutably/uniquely referenced reads garbage" => would that work regardless of the data type that that memory is referenced as? as in, not just on a special atomic type (whether an existing one or a new one)?
< 1730323711 881050 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been considering adding the fixed hill (random programs from every bfjoust hill ever) to the actual fitness evaluation in the evolver, but I'm worried that rather pushing it to innovate new strategies, it'll just make it only generate defense programs ever.
< 1730323713 991609 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yes
< 1730323745 872844 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Since defensive programs in general (even very basic and braindead ones) will get a higher score to begin with than a basic offensive program. But it's also a dead end.
< 1730323747 669679 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is easy to implement – you compile it into an asm instruction to perform a memory read, that is opaque to the compiler backend (and thus doesn't know it is a memory read instruction)
< 1730323774 999781 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder if some variant of markov scoring would be approprate here, though. Set it up so that the more programs beat a particular bot, the less valuable beating it is.
< 1730323812 268650 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :heh, your evolved vibrator beats nyuroki
< 1730323831 382145 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Linux doesn't allow non-root users to map readable memory over NULL" => wait, really? even on x86_32? I thought it was allowed on x86_32, though only in some unusual way, i.e. you need some specific syscall or option rather than just a normal mmap
< 1730323835 642077 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my guess is that it wins short tapes due to the lack of decoys, and a large enough fraction of the long ones to get a win
< 1730323847 282001 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: there's a procfile that allows it
< 1730323857 472793 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, only root can write the procfile
< 1730323861 533328 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"if the *kernel* does a NULL dereference" => ah, that makes sense
< 1730323923 441315 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought x86_32 allows it specifically so that the program can use the v8086 mode to emulate an x86_16 real mode machine
< 1730323937 759836 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1730323958 347894 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :The best attacker on the hill (that I can detect) so far is this thing:
< 1730323960 889011 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest test >(+)*6+(>((-)*3->(-)*10->-->+>(++++[>(>>(+>[+[(-)*23[+]]])*1490{})*-1]{})*-1)*23560)*64623
< 1730323961 169562 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lymia.test: points -7.90, score 13.15, rank 47/47
< 1730323982 722424 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :not that this matters now that everyone is running x86_64 (or arm64) rather than x86_32
< 1730324013 468000 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lymia: I'd expect that to beat or at least tie with all the defenders, unless there's a true flag-to-0 vibration program
< 1730324037 332664 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's not actually higher on the champions hill; but that could be because that one's slow to change by design.
< 1730324068 809317 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest evo >(>((-)*3->(-)*9+(--->+(>(+++(>(+>+>[-((>[-[(-)*9[+]]])*82339{})*-1]{})*-1{})*-1{})*-1{})*-1)*-1)*8036)*82245<(+)*67.+(+(+((+(-(+)*100++(+->>((-)*14+-+{})*-1{})*-1)*-1{})*-1{})*-1)*-1)*-1
< 1730324068 949230 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lymia.evo: points -8.31, score 14.85, rank 39/47
< 1730324071 339275 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, I think if {} appears at one end of a ()% loop, you can just delete it and change it to a ()* loop
< 1730324072 357424 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Here's a random top of hill.
< 1730324085 431282 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, just can't really do it in the current code structure.
< 1730324102 409704 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd need a seperate parse+simplify pass.
< 1730324105 40933 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know why it happens.
< 1730324136 764397 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the tricky part is that the libc function mmap returns the address of the mapped area or nullptr to indicate an error, so if you try to map specifically at address 0 it becomes hard to use, and you can't work this around by mapping from a slightly smaller address because that's conventionally kernel address space on linux
< 1730324166 685619 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :The actual internal IR structure for (X{})*Y is something like "ComplexRepeat(Y) X End End End"
< 1730324175 246908 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :And if any of the Ends are omitted, the IR just dumps it at the end of the block.
< 1730324193 642238 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :(This way, the evolver only needs to work with linear segments of instructions, not any complex branching structure)
< 1730324216 869249 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :So all the {}) is just the evolver arbitarily picking the complex repeat, and not closing it.
< 1730324274 888172 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: hmm, you think of pointers as signed?
< 1730324300 888516 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I hadn't even considered that an mmap of, say, -4096 for 8192 bytes would ever be possible, to me that's an overflow rather than a wrap
< 1730324328 871308 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :quite separately from the "high bit of address set = kernel address" rule
< 1730324494 486885 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1730324508 740244 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: that is kind of ambiguous on x86_32, or in userspace x86_64 where negative pointers are always invalid. on x86_64 they're clearly signed becuase the current versions of the architecture only pointers with small magnitude as a signed number, though in a way that the address space can be extended easily in future cpus. but I think of pointers more as wrapping modulo 2**32 or 2**64, with wrapping
< 1730324514 778035 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :addition and subtraction, and it usually doesn't matter whether they're signed, unless you for some reason want to less-than compare two pointers that needn't point into (or at the end of) the same object.
< 1730324562 370010 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the address part of x86_16 real mode or protected mode pointers is clearly unsigned though
< 1730324605 958378 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and on x86_64 too you may have to consider whether a 16-bit or 32-bit offset that you add to the pointer is signed or unsigned extended to 64 bits.
< 1730324621 277338 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure it's "clearly signed", I think of a userspace section at the bottom of the address space and a kernelspace section at the top
< 1730324625 207658 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that's for when the offset is shorter than the full pointer, which is why it matters.
< 1730324648 415210 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :those are next to each other from a wrapping point of view, which makes me think a non-wrapping point of view makes more sense because it gives the most possible space in between
< 1730324657 936759 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, kernelspace at top probably makes more sense for x86_32
< 1730324673 705867 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :x86_32 commonly uses 3GiB of userspace and 1GiB of kernelspace, doesn't it?
< 1730324694 264699 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :leaving as much room as possible in between means you can expand them asymmetrically if you have to
< 1730324702 194397 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :on x86_32 there's a configurable setting for that when you compile the kernel, I don't know what the most commonly used value is
< 1730324731 301758 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, I was thinking of Windows when I said that, which I think uses the 3/1 split, not totally sure though
< 1730324749 213201 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, x86_32 windows! I don't know then
< 1730324896 613251 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, imma end this at generation 10000.
< 1730324900 145732 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :And throw the best hits onto the hill.
< 1730324906 509505 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Looks to be stagnating.
< 1730324934 109161 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust hszr-g1423h1n2-remote-job <
< 1730324934 273973 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lymia.hszr-g1423h1n2-remote-job: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-13)
< 1730324977 244294 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The evolver uses small generations with few new bots each generation, because of the computational costs of BF Joust hills)
< 1730325159 353624 :Everythi1g!~Everythin@195.138.86.118 JOIN #esolangs * :Everything
< 1730325189 395184 :Everything!~Everythin@46.211.127.161 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
> 1730325599 495764 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0710 114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144596&oldid=144568 5* 03Ais523 5* (-37) 10/* Implementations */ compilers and interpreters are both valid ways to implement a language but it doesn't make sense to label a compiler as an interpreter, so rename the section to the more general "implementations" and adjust contents to match
< 1730326480 535371 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1730326603 345582 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07S.B.M.F.B14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144597&oldid=140530 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+579) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the S.B.M.F.B programming language on GitHub and altered the Unimplemented category tag to Implemented.
> 1730326693 699956 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07S.B.M.F.B14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144598&oldid=144597 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+508) 10Introduced an examples section which embraces as its two incipial members a Hello, World! printer and a repeating cat program.
< 1730326797 83369 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :No more evolver freezes.
< 1730326806 9418 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :So I'm reasonably sure the bug I caught in chainlance is the issue.
> 1730327120 519014 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07C-fuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144599 5* 03Baldibacak 5* (+878) 10Created page with "C-fuck is an esoteric programming language design by ~~~ C-fuck is 1+1 copy of c but it doesnt have variables instead it uses a single array called memory C-fuck is not implemented yet or there is any plan of implementing it if it did existed here are some pro
> 1730327154 484476 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07C-fuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144600&oldid=144599 5* 03Baldibacak 5* (-14) 10
< 1730327224 941461 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1730327594 144538 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1730327917 504777 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 JOIN #esolangs salpynx :realname
> 1730328225 361276 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PyChr14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144601&oldid=144569 5* 03ShirAko 5* (+57) 10
< 1730328234 123468 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1730328822 58199 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest hszr-g1904h5n7-rowdy-mate-simplified .-((+)*9(-)*4+++)*-1
< 1730328822 890064 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lymia.hszr-g1904h5n7-rowdy-mate-simplified: points -0.40, score 21.18, rank 21/47
< 1730328852 775045 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Can someone explain to me how a completely primitive vibration program is not dead on this hill. XD
< 1730328923 603592 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :What the heck is special about this specific combination of vibrations.
< 1730328960 741929 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust hszr-g1904h5n7-rowdy-mate https://dl.rimin.moe/paste/lymia/hszr-g1904h5n7-rowdy_0x1vw1r2pf474ws36b4xzy6pqmndiqsj8dba340v7zyzsj5s3v42.bfjoust
< 1730328963 114536 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lymia.hszr-g1904h5n7-rowdy-mate: points -0.40, score 21.18, rank 21/47
> 1730329154 265068 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PyFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144602&oldid=144581 5* 03ShirAko 5* (+224) 10
< 1730329216 504529 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lymia: lots of programs sacrifice win rate against vibrators to beat other things – it's rare for vibrators to be totally dead
< 1730329231 743776 :Everythi1g!~Everythin@195.138.86.118 QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1730329238 868767 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, that's a shudder program, not a vibrator
< 1730329274 803029 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Any little adjustment to the shudder pattern there makes the score shoot down.
< 1730329302 936209 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which is surprising, given no bots on esohill contributed to the fitness/internal hills at all.
< 1730329303 318406 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in fact, with the current knowledge of BF Joust strategies, shudder programs should in theory form part of an equilibrium
< 1730329333 501960 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :So something about that specific shudder pattern generalizes across hills.
< 1730329335 943373 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it may be impossible to reliably simultaneously beat both ash with randomized constants, and a shudder program with randomized constants
< 1730329450 630099 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the breakdown is interesting, it reliably loses against all my programs except the original margins (which seems reasonable) and impatience (which intentionally sacrifices winrate against programs that actively defend their own flag)
< 1730329464 561322 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it beats lots of programs by other authors
< 1730329564 594349 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know an approach like Nyuroki's clear loop probabilistically solves that conundrum, at least.
< 1730329586 77482 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Probably something about that specific pattern abuses the probabilistic solutions somehow.
< 1730329597 868605 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes – although you probably need to test more than twice to get the probability high enough against a sufficiently advanced shudder program
< 1730329639 820147 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :There has to be some probablistic anti-shudder on the evolver's hill, I think.
< 1730329649 281344 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or else no reason something this effective would A) emerge, B) top the internal hill.
< 1730329676 408182 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh wait, this pattern simplifies (+)*12(-)*4, that adjusts by 8 every 16 cycles (thus locking a 2-cycle clear going downwards), and it is very likely to push a 2-cycle clear going upwards past 0
< 1730329698 435932 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* simplifies to
< 1730329707 472797 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest hszr-g1904h5n7-rowdy-mate-simplified ((+)*12(-)*4)*-1
< 1730329708 231693 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so this is a very strong probabilistic lock in addition to being a shudder program
< 1730329708 271784 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lymia.hszr-g1904h5n7-rowdy-mate-simplified: points -2.52, score 17.81, rank 28/47
< 1730329717 633586 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest hszr-g1904h5n7-rowdy-mate-simplified .-((+)*12(-)*4)*-1
< 1730329718 458894 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lymia.hszr-g1904h5n7-rowdy-mate-simplified: points -0.14, score 21.27, rank 21/47
< 1730329726 579921 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right.
< 1730329735 866668 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest hszr-g1904h5n7-rowdy-mate-simplified -((+)*12(-)*4)*-1
< 1730329736 633623 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lymia.hszr-g1904h5n7-rowdy-mate-simplified: points -4.52, score 15.10, rank 38/47
< 1730329742 850576 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if I asked an evolver to come up with a pattern to defend its own flag I would expect it to come up with something like that
< 1730329753 581239 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest hszr-g1904h5n7-rowdy-mate-simplified ..((+)*12(-)*4)*-1
< 1730329754 385135 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lymia.hszr-g1904h5n7-rowdy-mate-simplified: points -4.67, score 14.90, rank 39/47
< 1730329773 540573 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :The extra-confusing part to me is that the initial - and the initial 2-cycle delay are both important
< 1730329773 818875 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :combine that with setting no decoys, and the idea is to win short tapes via overshoot and draw long ones
< 1730329866 792561 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in theory the delay and offset should be based on the details of the opposing programs, e.g. imagine if the opposing programs got there 1 cycle later (e.g. due to making one of their decoys 1 higher), now you'd need a 2-cycle delay to synchronise
< 1730329870 987994 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I suspect the delay is just chance
< 1730329880 300870 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel like the offset helping is also just chance but am less certain on that one
< 1730329885 414852 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :What's weird is that the delay's working on an unrelated hill to its origin hill.
> 1730329902 197036 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PyFuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144603&oldid=144602 5* 03ShirAko 5* (+0) 10For some reason the '' empty string didn't seem to work so changed it to ""
< 1730329907 280425 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lymia: I know it's not a satisfying answer, but I suspect that the target hills just aren't large enough for the biodiversity y'all desire.
< 1730329949 301608 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I haven't actually defined entropy for jousters or anything like that, so I don't know how diverse the hill currently is, but 47 just seems like a small number to me.
< 1730330015 330997 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: well, we haven't identified all that many basic strategies
< 1730330036 668212 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :47 is large enough to usually have each basic strategy represented by multiple bots
< 1730330062 874156 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd personally like to see it increased to help compensate for the instability that markov scoring induces.
< 1730330086 848683 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :except that fast rush, vibration and shudder are all known to struggle sometimes (fast rush and shudder are doing fine right now but vibration seems dead)
< 1730330125 759172 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: So, my prior for this sort of thing is that perhaps only 1-2% of the ecosystem is going to be worth studying. 47 isn't even 50, which would give us one interesting candidate per hill on average.
< 1730330144 267300 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: oh, you mean from an evolver?
< 1730330155 154560 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought you were talking about the human hill
< 1730330159 67424 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure, or from any evolutionary process, like having humans chat on IRC.
< 1730330187 602774 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION having trouble distinguishing humans from the rest of thermodynamics today
< 1730330206 937019 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, I think the majority of the hill is interesting, and has been for a while
< 1730330224 214917 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the less interesting programs tend to fall off quickly, because being boring = being predictable = being exploitable
< 1730330245 938151 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the majority of programs in the top half of the hill do at least one thing that no other program on the hill does
< 1730330273 104623 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm using 10 hills of 50 bots.
< 1730330283 232545 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ash's triplock, impatience's stupidly fast timer, nyuroki's very pure reverse decoy setup…
< 1730330349 781096 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh wow, I think there's an interesting meta emerging with reverse tripwires, too
< 1730330367 995005 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lots of programs use size-1 reverse tripwires, you can avoid triggering those half the time by leaving a size-1 trail
< 1730330386 224680 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Found one of the attackers from the hill that vibrator's from: .>(+)*26>-->(-)*4-(>-(+)*17>->-()*-1-->((-->(+>[(-)*3[+]])*5)*72464{})*-1)*15108
< 1730330386 900744 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and defenders are exploiting that with size-*0* reverse tripwires – leave a cell empty and see if you can detect a trail there
< 1730330412 108224 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait, what does ()*-1 mean
< 1730330424 370722 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Nothing.
< 1730330424 654566 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's a fun syntax corner case
< 1730330430 561520 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's a true noop.
< 1730330432 48898 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, but it's infinite amounts of nothing
< 1730330444 541865 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it runs ∞×0 commands
< 1730330446 465641 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lymia, did you say say you had a 100% winning evolved bot, with a Markov score of 46 (i think that's max, but wanted to confirm / see it)?
< 1730330457 394642 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :That one wasn't evolved.
< 1730330477 758621 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :was it 100% winning as in beating all other programs, or as in beating them all on all tape lengths and polarities?
< 1730330485 293048 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Beating all tape lengths and polarities.
< 1730330499 48189 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it was generated / calculated though?
< 1730330501 997962 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, so someone finally figured out how to do that
< 1730330507 870958 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we went back and forth on how difficult that would be
< 1730330512 969962 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :It used a custom bfjoust evalulator that ran the matches in parallel rather than serial: So at any time, it could examine the state it would be in vs every other opposing program and generate a "silver bullet" program.
< 1730330530 56606 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Was on the hill at one point, then took it off because it fucked up the hill. XD
< 1730330556 438205 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the only way something like that would fail would be if there were two incredibly similar programs on the hill
< 1730330563 763927 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nice, i had thought about how hard that would be, and whether a max score was possible. Nice.
< 1730330565 491847 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :making them difficult to tell apart
< 1730330583 538064 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :("we" = BF joust players in its early history)
< 1730330605 323686 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :very early versions of BF Joust kept program source secret to stop people doing that, although it mostly hasn't been a problem in practice
< 1730330661 307128 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :The issue is that the output of that program is unintresting.
< 1730330665 125533 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Only the generator itself is interesting.
< 1730330706 517608 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the really interesting part would be how stable you can make something like that
< 1730330709 781688 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :to new programs arriving
< 1730330725 966972 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I like the idea of a separate hill for anything goes, machine generated bots, so it becomes a meta-game of coding bots to make bots that play well against similar automated strategies
< 1730330738 588704 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :another thing I've been considering is an abbrevation for slightly randomized constants, to stop people special-casing against you
< 1730330802 331787 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that has some obvious logistical problems
< 1730330829 112523 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :wtf I seem to have a memory leak in the evolver.
< 1730330844 854865 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: the abberviation could be seeded on the hill, but the exact seed is hidden.
< 1730330858 861947 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :So a compromise between secret source and such.
< 1730330954 480179 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :web.ais523_ash: points 7.81, score 41.98, rank 1/47 (--)
< 1730330963 171571 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thank you for helping to debug ash :-)
< 1730330985 362413 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Pffffff
< 1730330998 204802 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :urgh, time for MISERY
< 1730331001 842414 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have a memory leak.
> 1730331026 84617 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BF Joust champions14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144604&oldid=143984 5* 03Ais523 5* (+0) 10/* 2024 */ ash was bugfixed, link to the latest version
< 1730331062 78786 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is surprising how often, when designing BF Joust warriors, that I can't count to 10
< 1730331073 252983 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, rather, count past it
< 1730331108 406929 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :(nvm, it's not misery, just code I forgot to add in.)
< 1730331143 445029 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :web.ais523_ash: points 7.81, score 41.98, rank 1/47 (--)
< 1730331159 51710 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…except that I somehow submitted the old version by mistake
< 1730331170 662378 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's better
< 1730331193 702090 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :(My 96GB of RAM hid a memory leak from me, lol.)
> 1730331203 456169 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BF Joust champions14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144605&oldid=144604 5* 03Ais523 5* (+0) 10/* 2024 */ correct link
< 1730331210 283713 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that is a lot of RAM
< 1730331262 909001 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :impatience still seems to have the decoy-zero-flag bug, although it doesn't trigger in as many circumstances
< 1730331273 352338 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the control flow of flexible timer clears is hard to reason about
< 1730331306 206340 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :I completely forgot to free the opcode list and compiled programs.
< 1730331311 313095 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :So it wasn't even a subtle leak.
< 1730331417 320793 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :This is why I shouldn't write C...
< 1730331486 748343 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lymia: oh wow, so I decided to swap the handwritten shudder loop from ash out for the one you evolved, and it does even better – significantly more better
< 1730331493 490403 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but now I am not sure whether I should submit it or not
< 1730331512 451100 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my changes to Lymia's Nyuroki still do well, its score has been fluctuating, recent changes have put it back over 50. I guess i should analyse what the changes from the original _mean_
< 1730331565 559977 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest experiment_optinyuroki https://raw.githubusercontent.com/hornc/JoustExt/897620ad597db89b3378aa7881023c354fe887af/examples/nyuroki-opti.bf
< 1730331565 959103 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx.experiment_optinyuroki: points 19.55, score 51.02, rank 1/47
< 1730331716 829683 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :mostly this is minor changes – significant changes are -24 to -8 against lugh and -12 to -31 against stealth4, both of which may be timing randomness
< 1730331745 763127 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh and +0 to +7 against XspeedX – a smaller increase but one that changes the match result
< 1730331778 876179 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are also a lot of +1/+2/+3 improvements – most of those are likely to be cases where the better shudder helps but isn't usually used
< 1730331909 152319 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust hszr-g9953h5n3-sizzling-distance https://dl.rimin.moe/paste/lymia/hszr-g9953h5n3-sizzl_099zcq37p3cyf7wwaps4ibas6y1gqpfcn96c6s18kzcxv52njh7f.bfjoust
< 1730331909 949094 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lymia.hszr-g9953h5n3-sizzling-distance: points -3.98, score 16.90, rank 32/47
< 1730331918 296797 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Best offensive program I could find on the internal hills.
< 1730331950 748727 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :It kinda sucks.
< 1730331999 777194 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's less innovative than good evolved programs usually are
< 1730332039 175053 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the reason it doesn't do very well is that this is the sort of program that everyone is starting out by optimising against
< 1730332150 260155 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i.e. if your warrior isn't designed to beat programs like sizzling-distance, what sort of programs *is* it defined to beat?
< 1730332157 879631 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's almost definitely better on that hill, but I lack the means to find them.
< 1730332202 484809 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there was that one program ages ago that was designed primarily to beat turtles rather than medium rushes, but that was a significant exception
< 1730332246 663539 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :()*-1 is a NOP right? it seems like there are multiple possible ways to interpret the spec tho
< 1730332286 266031 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"giving a repeat count of -1 indicates that the enclosed section of code should be repeated until the match is over." I'd assume it would hang and do nothing until the match is over, and never reach the subsequent code
< 1730332297 748767 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes. But that's bad for the hill. :)
< 1730332300 957533 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :to me, it's invalid code
< 1730332314 224124 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :In practical bfjoust implementations, ()*-1 is a true nop.
< 1730332317 984798 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest wtf https://dl.rimin.moe/paste/lymia/hszr-g12235h6n6-slee_1pb6xy776sbf2xp82sknmfajk4kpz4cxhvl3vg7jn8ivl6n3dyij.bfjoust
< 1730332320 571275 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lymia.wtf: points -0.95, score 19.37, rank 26/47
< 1730332323 479320 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm going to need to reverse engineer this thing.
< 1730332326 550850 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but my interpreter is stricter than many and I sometimes have to modify programs to make them work with it
< 1730332333 317142 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Last interesting program I found on the hill in the current version (before I continue on)
< 1730332370 525973 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hszr-g9953h5n3-sizzling-distance.bfjoust has a ()*-1 in it, which is why I'm mentioning it :)
< 1730332390 116517 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow that's a big program
< 1730332425 395425 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think most of it is dead code
< 1730332431 708199 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it's hard to even match the parens
< 1730332445 979772 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, it's just the same vibrator.
< 1730332451 869534 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :But with a mess of dead code.
< 1730332461 552396 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm writing an optimizer pass for a reason, lol.
< 1730332469 619870 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :The core warrior generation code can explode in code length.
< 1730332473 342270 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Without regard for whether it's dead.
< 1730332515 515658 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe you should do it like real-life evolution, where dead code can have an influence on how likely the surrounding code is to mutate
< 1730332542 281414 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(live code too, but dead code is only useful for that and for absorbing damage)
< 1730332545 384706 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's a thought.
> 1730332638 33159 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-S)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144606&oldid=144215 5* 03ShirAko 5* (+22564) 10Added for PyFuck and PyChr
> 1730332704 330168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PyChr14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144607&oldid=144601 5* 03ShirAko 5* (+27) 10Added rectwarp for better readability