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00:52:32 <esolangs> [[Talk:Jumpy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144772&oldid=144771 * Ais523 * (+476) programs are infinitely long
01:39:05 <esolangs> [[User:Hakerh400/Conjectures]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144773&oldid=144751 * Hakerh400 * (-2) /* Conjecture 4 */
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02:30:44 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Arsonist * New user account
02:42:25 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144774&oldid=144591 * Arsonist * (+431) /* Introductions */
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05:25:49 <Guest60> how to kindoff integrate monads(programming monads) into LC
05:32:53 <esolangs> [[Black Pentagon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144775&oldid=126176 * Gggfr * (-1) /* Introduction */ changed to right word
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10:16:07 <esolangs> [[PyFuck (kuangkzh)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144776&oldid=144717 * None1 * (+16) Real name from his github page
10:21:36 <esolangs> [[B2C]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144777&oldid=120138 * None1 * (+2) /* External resources */ change to GitHub Pages site
10:24:41 <esolangs> [[User:ChuckEsoteric08/Interpreters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144778&oldid=144736 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+430) Added CT in CDILOI
10:25:46 <esolangs> [[Remove Line Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144779&oldid=134363 * None1 * (-99) Remove down replit link
10:26:49 <esolangs> [[Preserve Line Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144780&oldid=144770 * None1 * (-99) /* C++ as Windows executable (64bit) (faster link) */ remove down replit link
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10:31:51 <esolangs> [[OOo CODE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144781&oldid=144767 * None1 * (+1) /* External resources */
10:38:11 <esolangs> [[OOo CODE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144782&oldid=144781 * None1 * (-23) /* External resources */ probably dead
10:40:23 <esolangs> [[ChuckEsoteric08/Interpreters]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144783 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+47) Redirected page to [[User:ChuckEsoteric08/Interpreters]]
10:44:55 <esolangs> [[EsoInterpreters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144784&oldid=144746 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+61) Added CT in CDILOI
10:49:39 <esolangs> [[CDILOI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144785&oldid=144744 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (-6) /* Computational class */
11:02:12 <esolangs> [[DOG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144786&oldid=144747 * None1 * (+28) /* External resources */
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11:47:20 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144787&oldid=144501 * Iddi01 * (+117) lots of minor fixes
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14:28:59 <esolangs> [[1 bytes :3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144788&oldid=144520 * Ractangle * (-2) I take that back
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14:37:13 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144789&oldid=144787 * Ais523 * (+61) /* The rule of nine */ partial rv the rule of nine is about attacking from the tenth cell, and although some slow rush programs do attack from further away, this is generally considered to be a rule of nine violation rather than part of the rule
14:39:48 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144790&oldid=144789 * Ais523 * (+40) /* Poke */ partial rv the point isn't the number of decoys but the distance from the flag, which "advanced" reflected but "additional" doesn't write it out more clearly
14:40:29 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144791&oldid=144790 * Ais523 * (-20) /* Reverse tripwire avoidance */ partial rv what makes you think the program was untested?
14:42:36 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144792&oldid=144791 * Ais523 * (-12) /* Defense */ reword/clarify
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14:44:34 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144793&oldid=144792 * Ais523 * (-8) /* Probabilistic lock */ partial rv "usually" doesn't really make sense given that we are talking about probabilities here the possibility of a good or bad timing matchup is included in the proportion of the time that the lock is gained
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15:37:26 <esolangs> [[1 bytes :3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144794&oldid=144788 * Ractangle * (+56) /* interpreter */
15:37:53 <esolangs> [[1 bytes :3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144795&oldid=144794 * Ractangle * (+30) /* interpreters */
15:42:12 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144796&oldid=144793 * Iddi01 * (+104) /* Reverse tripwire avoidance */ Look at the history, the author said it was untested
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16:11:56 <esolangs> [[1 bytes :3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144797&oldid=144795 * Ractangle * (-5) /* interpreters */
16:13:49 <wWwwW> can anybody aswer Guest60(it was me)
16:13:53 <esolangs> [[1 bytes :3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144798&oldid=144797 * Ractangle * (-26) /* print */
16:14:40 <esolangs> [[Hello world!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144799 * Ractangle * (+27) Redirected page to [[Hello, world!]]
16:15:21 <esolangs> [[1 bytes :3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144800&oldid=144798 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Hello world */
16:20:59 <esolangs> [[JAGL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144801&oldid=144762 * Ractangle * (+50) /* Syntax */
16:21:14 <esolangs> [[JAGL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144802&oldid=144801 * Ractangle * (-30) /* Syntax */
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16:38:40 <Guest67> I have a programming question, can I get information about esoteric languages from the site https://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page using sparql as I would for wikidata (ex: SELECT ?propertyLabel ?valueLabel WHERE {
16:38:41 <Guest67> wd:Q244627 ?property ?value .
16:38:41 <Guest67> SERVICE wikibase:label { bd:serviceParam wikibase:language "[AUTO_LANGUAGE],en". }
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16:41:25 <korvo> Guest67: IIUC there aren't SPARQL endpoints builtin for MediaWiki; we'd need to add an extension of some sort.
16:41:47 <korvo> Note that most pages on the wiki are *not* sufficiently annotated to allow for useful queries anyway. The wiki isn't a relational database at all.
16:42:27 <wWwwW> why is it so rare we change featured lang?
16:42:46 <korvo> wWwwW: It still doesn't make sense to "integrate monads" into lambda calculus; are you thinking of Kleisli categories or something else?
16:43:19 <korvo> Featured pages usually have to meet some minimum standard, and most pages on the wiki are clearly one-person vanity stubs.
16:43:21 <wWwwW> im thinking of like
16:43:48 <wWwwW> the programming monads with like functions and classes
16:44:47 <Guest67> so the only way to retrieve info from <https://esolangs.org/> is using requests, BeautifulSoup or something like these?
16:53:08 <wWwwW> also idk why but im trygint o get like a ps1 or 2 onto a fucking spynet smartwatch style thing
16:54:02 <korvo> wWwwW: Monads in programming are merely a special case of monads in category theory.
16:54:29 <korvo> Guest67: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Wiki_dumps
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16:57:44 <korvo> wWwwW: Maybe let's take a step back. What *is* a programming monad?
16:58:47 <wWwwW> im actually not sure
16:58:51 <wWwwW> ik what a monad is
16:58:58 <wWwwW> but not a proglang one
17:00:24 <korvo> Pretend that each language has a category given by its types. Most languages don't actually have categories this way, but we can pretend. Then a proglang monad is just a monad on that category of types.
17:02:10 <korvo> wWwwW: Does that make sense? We can go with an example if you like. What's your favorite monad?
17:03:01 <wWwwW> cant any function be turned into a monad but making it like a class or smth
17:04:14 <korvo> No. Recall that a monad is always carried by a functor.
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17:08:56 <korvo> wWwwW: So, what's your favorite monad?
17:09:10 <wWwwW> i dont rlly have one tbh
17:09:20 <wWwwW> maybe the infinite monad
17:09:30 <wWwwW> the monad of x where x is the monad of x
17:09:32 <korvo> I don't know that one. What's its type signature?
17:09:46 <wWwwW> i like kinda just made it up
17:09:50 <korvo> Okay, so you *don't* know what a monad is, then.
17:10:15 <wWwwW> its a monoid of the endofuctors of x
17:10:21 <korvo> Okay, and what is a functor?
17:10:53 <wWwwW> the like morphism(kinda) between categories whích maps elements of one category to another
17:11:56 <korvo> Okay, I think I see the confusion. Think of an individual category as its own universe, its own world, separate from all of the others. A morphism *inside* a category doesn't have any meaning *outside* the category. Functors aren't morphisms in that sense.
17:12:49 <korvo> Instead, a functor is a map from one universe to another. To keep it rigid, a functor must map identity morphisms to identity morphisms, and all diagrams must commute. If something is true before applying the functor, then it is still true after applying the functor.
17:13:23 <korvo> So a monad is a monoid on this universe-to-universe mapping setup, not a monoid of ordinary functions.
17:14:09 <wWwwW> waht does is identity morphism
17:15:23 <korvo> Well, remember how identity and composition work? Let X, Y, and Z be objects in a category C, let f : X -> Y and g : Y -> Z be arrows, and let F be a functor from C to some other category D.
17:16:13 <korvo> We want F(f) : F(X) -> F(Y) and F(g) : F(Y) -> F(Z) to compose in D to give F(f;g) : F(X) -> F(Z). And that's the same first building f;g : X -> Z in C, and then applying F.
17:16:59 <korvo> That's all that I mean by "commute". It's a fairly classic diagram; check out nLab's version: https://ncatlab.org/nlab/files/functor.jpg
17:17:17 <korvo> In that picture, h = f;g.
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17:19:12 <korvo> Guest9: No worries. Thanks for asking and not just scraping.
17:19:36 <korvo> With requests or BeautifulSoup or etc.
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17:21:59 <Guest9> i have a esolang concept
17:22:14 <Guest9> and i rlly need to know if its gud cuz its going to take lots of time
17:25:38 <ais523> you're unlikely to get advice unless you tell people what it is
17:25:53 <Guest9> i just wanted to knwo if ppl would want to hear it
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17:26:23 <Guest9> ehrre younhave a single(or 2) commands to change x y of pointer and thats it
17:26:33 <Guest9> maybe theres like a tape with instructions on it but idk
17:27:02 <ais523> Guest9: have you seen https://esolangs.org/wiki/Nopfunge and its derivatives (e.g. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Turn_Left)? those change the direction of the pointer, not its position, but it's similar
17:27:50 <Guest9> im going for a jolverine style esolang
17:28:17 <Guest9> also i havent read them but like
17:31:06 <Guest9> also my goal is to teatch myself to work eith 2d compilers
17:31:14 <Guest9> like how to compile 2d langs
17:31:33 <ais523> I think the main challenge of that language will be coming up with a command that works
17:31:46 <ais523> in the early days of esolangs.org, there were a lot of failed attempts at 1Ls
17:32:23 <Guest9> it would prop be conditinal
17:32:28 <ais523> if you're interested in the "tape with instructions idea" on it, look at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Turning_tarpit; Wunnel is an example of a 1L turning-tarpit, but you might want to take innovations from some of the others
17:32:32 <korvo> FWIW there's no meaningful difference between 1D and 2D bytecode when it comes to writing a compiler. The dimensionality of bytecode is usually 1D for sanity and to map to hardware.
17:33:19 <korvo> I suppose I should write a JIT for one of the popular 2D languages to show this off. Not sure which one to pick though.
17:33:20 <Guest9> ais523 im not sure bout that part
17:33:28 <ais523> korvo: bytecode doesn't map to hardware anyway, it's always interpreted
17:33:35 <Guest9> and yes ik bout turning tarpits
17:34:11 <ais523> also, Befunge was designed to be basically impossible to compile, this is why it has things like the put command, and (in Funge-98) flying instruction pointer movement
17:34:32 <int-e> https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/monoid ...this concept has way too many different definitions.
17:34:38 <korvo> ais523: The original insight of JIT is that we can homomorphically map bytecode to *sequences* of machine code. From there, an online incremental compiler is mostly an engineering challenge. Check out Self's original eight-instruction VM for an example.
17:34:48 <korvo> But yeah, I agree.
17:35:41 <ais523> the `k` command is also something of an obstacle: when writing a post on codegolf stack exchange I eventually gave up trying to describe what "kr" does, only describing the more easily defined cases
17:36:45 <korvo> Guest9: Yes, you should always be willing to try to write an interpreter.
17:37:26 <ais523> fwiw, Advance The Wheel! is by far my favourite turning tarpit – it gives the turningness a reason to exist rather than just being syntax
17:37:48 <Guest9> you made it i think right?
17:37:57 <Guest9> then ofc you would like it
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17:38:21 <ais523> well, yes – I have lots of esolang ideas but don't usually make them into languages unless they're good
17:38:55 <korvo> I actually dislike most of what I've made. But I suppose that that is not typical.
17:39:23 <ais523> I dislike many of my early languages, I got better over time
17:39:40 <ais523> Burn wouldn't be interesting if not for the whole "I forgot the spec and wrote about it anyway" thing, I think
17:42:15 <korvo> Many folks have told me that Monte's syntax is terribly ugly. I wish to tell them that it's not only ugly, but irritating to read when writing large pattern-matches.
17:43:03 <korvo> Also it has a bunch of bad ergonomics from blending Python and E syntax. In particular, it supports *both* indentation and braces for nesting and scoping.
17:43:26 <ais523> Haskell does that too, and it isn't disastrous there
17:43:36 <wWwwW> ok can i get an actual answer...like im just not sure
17:43:38 <ais523> although Haskell's indentation rules are different from Pyhton's
17:44:12 <ais523> wWwwW: writing the interpreter will probably do you good, but it'll take a lot of thought to get the language itself right
17:44:26 <ais523> the nice thing is, even if you get it wrong, you can probably easily modify the interpreter to process different commands
17:44:35 <ais523> so you can start that before the language is fully designed
17:45:23 <korvo> wWwwW: An actual answer includes the Command Pattern, which is not only a fair bit ahead of your current knowledge but usually not taught due to controversy over design patterns.
17:45:46 <wWwwW> it will only have one command anyway(other than NOP
17:45:47 <ais523> korvo: which one is that?
17:45:56 <ais523> generally speaking, I know patterns but not what they're called
17:46:05 <korvo> Basically, a language is a way to *instruct* a system. So, designing a language can be done by designing the system first, and then writing down the instructions based on the things that the system can do.
17:46:36 <korvo> ais523: It's got a couple names. It's the realization that a sequence of method calls against an API object is equivalent to a straight-line bytecode sequence for a machine.
17:47:44 <ais523> NetHack4 uses what's basically a command pattern to communicate from windowport to engine
17:47:47 <korvo> At a past job, we used this insight to design an instrumentation/monitoring tool. Users could write a string describing what they wanted to measure, and the string was interpreted as a command for a system which controls probes and gathers data.
17:48:10 <ais523> although, it allows parameters to be "ask me using a callback" rather than containing specific values (although, specific values are also allowed)
17:48:25 <korvo> Yep, GUIs and TUIs do commands all the time. There's an old ADT called "wid" for this; Monte's got an implementation, although the best-known one is certainly Python's Urwid.
17:51:08 <korvo> Looking at 1L, is it known whether a 3D workspace suffices for TCness?
17:51:23 <wWwwW> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
17:51:25 <ais523> korvo: what 1L do you mean?
17:51:31 <ais523> 1L is a general term crossing a range of languages
17:52:40 <ais523> huh, I just had an idea – 0L, it's a playfield full of NOPs, but you can somehow program by choosing what shape it is (it's not just a rectangle), not sure how to make that TC but it seems like an interesting idea
17:53:23 <ais523> I'll have to spend a few days thinking about it before it becomes something coherent
17:53:49 <wWwwW> if oyu get that done
17:53:54 <korvo> Yeah, similarly I'm not sure how to answer your question but now I'm thinking of different 3D crystal structures.
17:55:07 <ais523> I think it'd pretty much have to be called 0L to keep the pattern going
17:56:00 <korvo> I think I convinced myself that the crystal-structure approach is useless. The wallpaper group (and friends) are finite and I genuinely can't imagine an un- or semidecidable problem on them s.t. there's a meaningful computational problem behind it.
17:56:39 <korvo> It'd end up like Seventeen or Bust, where the question is sufficiently concrete and arithmetic to be reduced to searching for solutions of polynomials.
17:57:06 <korvo> This was important because otherwise I was ready to use the language name "But Is It Wallpaper?"
17:59:21 <ais523> I'm reminded of one of my old esolang ideas that I gave up on because I couldn't find a way to make it interesting
17:59:51 <korvo> Yeah. If anybody comes up with a good intersection of But Is It Art? and the wallpaper group, go for it. I'm not seeing one, though; the finiteness of this group is extremely geometric.
18:00:01 <wWwwW> for an array how was it now agian
18:00:06 <ais523> there is a infinite, procedurally generated with fixed seed (so it's always the same) 3D space that contains a number of reflective objects, and the program is a laser where you can choose exactly where it starts and where it's pointing, then it bounces off the objects forever
18:00:10 <wWwwW> you indexed it like x and y
18:00:14 <esolangs> [[String-rewriting paradigm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144803&oldid=72234 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+405) Interpreter, categories
18:00:32 <ais523> but I ended up having to make the 3D space too uninterestingly "artificial" to get close to TCness
18:00:48 <esolangs> [[SWCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144804&oldid=144707 * Ractangle * (+135) /* Charecter table */
18:01:19 <esolangs> [[Binary-encoded Minsky machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144805&oldid=140122 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+1) /* Encoding */
18:01:33 <korvo> Er, I should say, the finiteness of the set of wallpaper groups, combined with the simple procedures for determining which group describes the given observations, is extremely geometric. There's an entire discipline, crystallography, where people look at a picture and then tell you the corresponding group.
18:02:07 <wWwwW> korvo you told be what the array index was so what was it?
18:02:09 <ais523> I am reminded of the way that the entire set of Archimedean solids is known
18:02:26 <ais523> with a couple of infinite families and then a finite number of others
18:02:38 <korvo> wWwwW: Take your rectangle grid and slice it into rows. Line up the rows to make a 1D array.
18:06:12 <esolangs> [[Conditional Bee]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144806&oldid=144743 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+69) Categories
18:06:34 <korvo> wWwwW: Suppose each row has s items. If you want to access row i and column j, then you'd want to access index (j * s + i) in the 1D array. Why is that?
18:06:48 <esolangs> [[Conditional brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144807&oldid=74791 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) /* See also */ Link
18:07:22 <wWwwW> the j(y) will be moved by one row every time and then we add i(x)
18:07:37 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Ractangle * uploaded "[[File:SWCE Charecter s.png]]"
18:07:44 <korvo> Great! Sounds like you understand.
18:08:00 <wWwwW> i just needed to make sure
18:08:14 <esolangs> [[SWCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144809&oldid=144804 * Ractangle * (+88) /* Making a charecter */
18:08:20 <esolangs> [[InPro]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144810&oldid=144740 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+53) Categories
18:08:36 <korvo> This is the typical way of implementing large multidimensional arrays. As long as you know the depth/width/height of most of the dimensions (except one, for rows) then you can always do this same arithmetic.
18:08:40 <esolangs> [[SWCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144811&oldid=144809 * Ractangle * (+49) /* Making a charecter */
18:09:10 <esolangs> [[Conditional Bee]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144812&oldid=144806 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+92) Categories
18:11:02 <korvo> wWwwW: Try it! Suppose that I have a 4D array, sometimes called a "tensor". I know that the strides (depth/width/height/etc.) are s, t, and u. How would I compute the index at the address i, j, k, l?
18:11:25 <wWwwW> plz not rn im making the compiler
18:11:27 * korvo maybe going too fast
18:11:34 <ais523> korvo: I've seen "tensor" used to name two unrelated things and neither is a 4D array :-D
18:11:37 <korvo> Oh, cool. Have fun!
18:11:43 <wWwwW> * korvo is going too fast lol
18:12:03 <wWwwW> my command will just move the pointer diagonally
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18:13:53 <korvo> ais523: I think the tensors in General Relativity are 4D? But yeah, usually folks mean a 2D or 3D array destined for matrix multiplication, I guess.
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18:26:56 <esolangs> [[Pointer-based Minsky machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144813&oldid=142459 * Ractangle * (+198) /* Implementations */
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18:45:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Tougne]] to [[Pycone]]
19:06:47 <esolangs> [[Pycone]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144816&oldid=144814 * Ractangle * (+259)
19:07:48 <esolangs> [[Pycone]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144817&oldid=144816 * Ractangle * (-10) /* Truth-machine */
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23:58:08 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Yuroyumachi * New user account