where is my [name]? # define variable  I've forgot where I put [name] for the [number][st/nd/rd/th] time! # name <- number  let me think about it. after I used my [name] the last tim
< 1731174558 656517 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: moslty its(as the names jokes shows) as long away from both langs, but still have derived concept while still beiong nothing like them:]
< 1731174774 514730 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Hmm. How would you capture algebraically that +>+<->-< is a no-op? Not that people are likely to write that kind of code.
> 1731174959 876577 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Algebraic Brainfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145100&oldid=145056 5* 03Int-e 5* (+0) 10pick a nit
< 1731175077 680939 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(My own toy BF intermediate language is  type Offset = Integer, data BF = Add Offset Integer | Input Ofs | Output Ofs | Loop Offset [BF] | ... where ... captures higher level building blocks that may arise from recognizing certain idioms. The Offset in loops is for accounting for things like [>] that shift the pointer on each iteration.)
> 1731175122 240821 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Where is my esolang?14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145101&oldid=145099 5* 03ZCX islptng 5* (+492) 10
< 1731175180 783021 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And the point of tracking offsets is that all Add instructions commute with one another.
< 1731175215 746912 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Good example. The monoid isn't finitely generated, so there will always be new rules that could be added to an optimizer.
< 1731175232 122440 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ISTR that this is a fundamental feature of TC systems, but I have no idea who said it or how they phrased it.
< 1731175249 253452 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :bur korvo other thsn thta detail what do you thinkj?
< 1731175263 756522 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh sure, you run into Rice' theorem sooner or later.
< 1731175284 146582 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: I'm not a fan, but I'm also not a fan of the source languages. They don't really feel rewarding to me.
< 1731175341 389010 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1731175349 901895 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, what's the better possessive? Rice' or Rice's?
< 1731175357 120838 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Amnesiac From Minsk starts out as Minsky-style counter machines. No thank you! The only time I've appreciated those is in the proof that Braid is TC.
< 1731175385 841934 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah Minsky machines are a great target for proving things TC.
< 1731175388 62415 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ha, I've never seen "Rice'" before, but it makes sense phonetically.
< 1731175395 241571 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And an awful target for "real" programming.
< 1731175469 967455 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's a bit like combinatory logic.
< 1731175493 914923 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :true
< 1731175495 226821 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :You generally don't want to write Minsky machines directly. You want to compile to them.
< 1731175501 427961 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it isnt rlly but like kinda is
< 1731175503 621958 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ehwutever
< 1731175553 181255 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Heck, Brainfuck with bounded tape and unbounded cells is a better Minsky machine.
< 1731175565 305507 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :In terms of programmability.
< 1731175649 754083 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :true
< 1731175653 84047 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's something psychological about it. Numberphile is famous for using lots of sheets of paper; I wonder how folks would feel if they instead wrote every theorem and statement with a unique ideogram? That's how counter machines feel to me.
< 1731175682 253949 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you jumped in BF it would just be a minsky machine with infinite registers and a pointer
< 1731175692 278468 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: lol thats funny
< 1731175737 893636 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I don't know what it is tbh. There's something cozy about loops, despite the struggle to make conditionals from them.
< 1731175767 792408 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :This may be Stockholm syndrome. I've spent quite a bit of time of my life actually writing Brainfuck code.
< 1731175827 121474 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(And very little time constructing Minsky machines.)
< 1731175860 94109 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd rather write Brainfuck than LC, CL, or TMs. I think that it's because Brainfuck offers a little more potential for disciplined composition of subprograms.
< 1731175905 818864 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess writing LC or CL isn't too bad given a macro system. And Cammy is basically unbearable without macros, even if I think of a hive as more of an IDE than a ball of macros.
< 1731175914 371022 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: techno stockholm syndrome......... nice lol
< 1731175987 893928 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Oh but LC is actually nice in that it enables abstraction (in the form of higher order functions).
< 1731176027 195507 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The only way I can write CL code is by starting with LC code and then doing abstraction elimination.
< 1731176063 966941 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can write CL directly but I'd prefer a Cammy-like categorical basis instead. Less C, more B.
< 1731176096 511511 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :LC would be nice if it were typed. I can write STLC all day. I hate Elm and OCaml but I can use them.
< 1731176114 227852 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: it's worth noting that tromp's BLC source language actually has `let` syntactic sugar. Oh and support for simple recursion so you don't have to write your own fixed point combinator every time.
< 1731176167 957395 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So pure LC really isn't *that* nice for humans... having bindings (with name and definition in one place) is a huge help.
< 1731176186 232531 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1731176188 465535 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is for me
< 1731176229 842661 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Yeah, I suppose that you're right. Apples-to-apples, I don't want to write TMs with anything less than (Not-Quite-)Laconic. Ditto with Wang tilings or Post correspondence blocks.
< 1731176275 657945 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: Have you found Boehm-Berarducci encoding yet? (Did I actually spell their names right this time?)
< 1731176283 537613 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wahts dat
< 1731176306 141074 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also i hate non LC lambdas. they are stupid in my opiion
< 1731176308 238558 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :You know Church encoding for natural numbers? That can be generalized to any algebraic data type.
> 1731176308 721740 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Where is my esolang?14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145102&oldid=145101 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+96) 10Categories
< 1731176322 796491 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: i had that idea for ages
< 1731176373 629671 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: what do you mean, Lagrange multipliers work great.
< 1731176381 124378 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...
< 1731176382 678373 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...
< 1731176389 31112 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :LAMBDA CALCULUS!!!!!
< 1731176390 853739 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1731176406 566628 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you talked about non-LC lambdas
< 1731176407 215569 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :idek what that is
> 1731176410 536363 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07The nutjob from wellington14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145103&oldid=145066 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+111) 10Categories
< 1731176419 343570 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrange_multiplier -- usually called lambda.
< 1731176426 552823 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: Lambda-abstraction is the same everywhere; any language which calls something else "lambda" can be comfortably named and shamed.
> 1731176451 469554 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07The nutjob from wellington14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145104&oldid=145103 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-1) 10Fix category
< 1731176451 667551 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e that means using lambdas in non lambda calculus just feel out of place for the rest of the lang. unless its haskell ofc
< 1731176465 403591 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's also that weird thing that AWS calls "lambda".
< 1731176490 699863 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: And ultimately it's a Greek letter and that language would be much poorer without it.
< 1731176540 652753 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :true lol
< 1731176596 738462 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: It's not historically accurate, but think of LC as a calculus with *only* lambda-abstractions. At the time, a calculus always had applications and variables, so LC has three forms: application, variable lookup, and lambda-abstraction.
< 1731176674 418168 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway, what languages were you thinking of? Languages like Python, Java, or C++ really do have lambda-abstraction, although it fits within their object models.
< 1731176729 463375 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh yeah this was the last time of me constructing Minksy machines "manually" (it really bootstraps higher-level abstractions like loops immediately to minimize the number of operations that have to be specified manually): https://devel.isa-afp.org/browser_info/current/AFP/Minsky_Machines/Minsky.html
< 1731176784 958878 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Python especially(cuz firts of all ugly, second of all looks weird, and third of all messy ahhh) but bacially everywhere. idk
< 1731176786 961414 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :...I found a typo
< 1731176849 307029 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :...this is why I should never look at things I did years ago.
< 1731176849 972842 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: So, three complaints about syntax? Don't get me wrong, readability matters and Python is sensitive to that critique, but I don't think that that's a good basis for a complaint.
< 1731176876 424257 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :its not a complaiint its more of a personal disliking
< 1731176910 763444 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Partially because Python's `lambda` still does what it's supposed to do, and partially because a readability-first approach eventually degrades into useless goo. My preferred example is Quorum, a lackluster middling language useful only as an example of what not to do.
< 1731176927 283963 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1731176944 803296 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: I think you've overlooked what lambda-abstraction *is*. A lambda is a *hole* in an expression where another expression can go, and when we apply a lambda, we *fill* that hole.
< 1731177018 420901 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`x(y)(z)`...
< 1731177018 896165 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`x y z`...
< 1731177019 405557 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`f(x y) f(z)` how i wish it was
< 1731177022 12229 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :f(x? No such file or directory
< 1731177022 50464 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :x(y)(z)`...? No such file or directory
< 1731177022 508204 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :x? No such file or directory
< 1731177032 856301 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1731177235 653586 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or `f(x) f(y) f(z)` for that matter
< 1731177482 419302 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what about you korvo? how would you like x applied to y applied to z in lambda style to llok like?
> 1731177494 198602 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07614]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145105&oldid=145086 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+0) 10/* Online interpreters */
> 1731177816 103486 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07The nutjob from wellington14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145106&oldid=145104 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+11) 10/* semantics and syntax */
> 1731177953 696109 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07The nutjob from wellington14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145107&oldid=145106 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+62) 10/* semantics and syntax */
> 1731177967 448629 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07The nutjob from wellington14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145108&oldid=145107 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+4) 10/* infinite loop */
< 1731178063 403980 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shoould we have a infinte loop list?
< 1731178070 420257 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe ill make one
< 1731178246 826831 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Eh I'm still happy with the economy of that Minsky machine formalization. (It establishes that all recursively enumerable sets can be recognized by Minsky machines. It's just the Minsky machine part, the definition of recursively enumerable = computably enumerable sets is elsewhere.)
< 1731178295 117865 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :?
< 1731178320 386297 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(that's enough of me admiring my past self)
< 1731178463 792441 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wahtwahtwahtwaht
< 1731178466 769633 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :im very confused
< 1731178470 657912 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :eh wutever
< 1731178570 42558 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: I literally don't care what it looks like. I care about how easy it is to machine-parse and how easy it is to enter on a keyboard.
< 1731178600 67039 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I am *tired* of caring about S-expressions vs JSON vs YAML vs etc.
< 1731178696 234766 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1731178707 151126 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(looks can come to typing)
< 1731178712 247607 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"what lambda-abstraction is" -- LC and CL both formalize substitution. CL is arguably simpler (it's a first-order term rewriting system), but also more awkward to use.
< 1731179094 534991 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I sometimes wish Bob Harper's ABTs were more popular. An abstract binding tree (ABT) is an abstract syntax tree (AST) with generic lambda-abstraction. ABTs are ASTs with (typed) holes.
< 1731179156 369953 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: FWIW I'm a former professional pianist and my fingers are physically tired. I use an ergonomic keyboard, I stretch constantly, and I want languages that are shorter so that I don't have to type as much.
< 1731179210 422905 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Cammy's canonical form is S-expressions because (pr t not) is shorter and easier than ["pr", "t", "not"]. Otherwise I'd use JSON, and a predecessor of Cammy was implemented in jq.
< 1731179222 492671 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: What is the jq language?
< 1731179339 10486 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok
< 1731179377 858260 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: this is starting to intimidate me: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/Mintech.png (Mindustry)
< 1731179382 147073 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(here you talk about pianist as a job right? i find a pianist anybody who can play stuff and make good stuff on piano personally)
< 1731179509 229112 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: Yes, I was paid money to play jazz piano in restaurants and clubs. It's not lucrative.
> 1731179548 333277 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: [500 Internal Server Error] generating response: context deadline exceeded [#6267f9299c89c]
< 1731179570 262500 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: err what?
< 1731179586 430336 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh.
< 1731179607 821900 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION outprompts the bot

> 1731179619 206776 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: "err what?" is a common phrase used in programming to indicate an error or unexpected behavior. It's a way to ask "What's wrong?" or "What went wrong?" when encountering an error message or unexpected output. It's a casual way to express confusion and seek clarification about the error.
< 1731179638 123582 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hahahaha
< 1731179707 196670 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is this real?
< 1731179710 166201 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: What's an example of hard-to-parse JSON?
< 1731179717 45541 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if not we need to make it
< 1731179743 758297 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: idk. i dont actually look much into JSON. for all i know its just a bunch of dictionaries
> 1731179747 998924 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: There's no single "hard-to-parse JSON" example, as it depends on the specific criteria for "hard". However, here's a common issue: **Nested objects with deeply nested arrays:** ```json { "nested_object": { "inner_array": [ { "nested_object": { "inner_array": [ "item" ] } }, "item" ] } } ``` This structure can be difficult to parse due to the depth...
> 1731179747 999237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :of nesting.
< 1731179773 390643 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fuck how did i misread esolangs as wWwwW????
< 1731179793 665407 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :> fix show
< 1731179795 22496 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\...
< 1731179833 828518 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...
< 1731179834 856549 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...
< 1731179835 830027 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...
< 1731179836 856387 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...
< 1731179840 421843 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :WAHTTF
< 1731179844 796291 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err what
< 1731179853 287780 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :> fix error
< 1731179854 701220 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : "*Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Ex...
< 1731179864 93320 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION shrugs

< 1731179865 871173 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: how did you come up with "err what"
< 1731179871 765354 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: one "..." is more than enough
< 1731179877 984984 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure is
< 1731179880 426040 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: I asked
< 1731179885 593488 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ooh, to the tune of "Sound of Silence". ♪ It's not hard to parse JSON ♩ but here's a hint to help along ♪ when nesting objects very deep ♩ the stack pointer you should always keep ♩
< 1731179906 591864 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1731179919 81166 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i just made a fricking train noise with my mouth
< 1731179922 361099 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nice:]
< 1731179924 931409 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :♪ for the nesting! can overflow your stack ♪ with a lack ♩ of allocated space, due to the depth … of nesting ♩
> 1731179960 717803 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: The prompt doesn't provide information about how "err what" came about. It's likely a humorous or nonsensical phrase, perhaps referencing the absurdity of esoteric programming languages and their often cryptic error messages.
< 1731179960 766299 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I honestly think that there is no hard to parse JSON value. The trouble is mostly character encodings.
< 1731179994 206930 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hey korvo as a pianist whats the most annoying thing you have to do?
< 1731180004 419922 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I was hoping that the response would trip up at least one component somewhere along the line. But yeah, I've parsed JSON like four or five times, and it's not hard given a parser library.
< 1731180008 145524 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And why is \u limited to 4 hex digits. :P
< 1731180027 510899 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: Hip-hop on a piano or harpsichord.
> 1731180037 983791 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TxeT14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145109&oldid=144976 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+1) 10/* Python */
< 1731180038 345192 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And a recursive descent parser will also do just fine.
> 1731180078 262603 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TxeT14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145110&oldid=145109 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+31) 10/* Examples */
< 1731180080 508910 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :What else is weird... JavaScript has NaN but JSON doesn't.
< 1731180095 321409 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And it's annoying that you have to encode 64 bit integers as strings.
< 1731180103 730653 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: personally as a /producer/(take that lightly i make music on the internet for no reason for no money and its prop terrible) i say breakcore beats. but umm i can see why
< 1731180159 294005 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But those are shortcomings of the format and its origin rather than difficulties with parsing.
< 1731180202 225713 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: Gigging musicians have to be able to improvise when people ask. I can fake most styles, but hip-hop's a common request that I can't really work with. Sometimes I wish I were a drummer.
< 1731180263 372821 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs : -- argh, specify a maximum width *please*
< 1731180271 695472 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(from https://www.json.org/json-en.html )
< 1731180308 671713 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: trust me. you wont want to be a drummer. as my dad says(as a drummer), "if i started with drums i wouldve never played the piano". e explained its cuz its hard mto do both
< 1731180310 579105 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :idk lol
< 1731180317 609838 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(100% is particularly obnoxious because scaling doesn't work. Gotta make the viewport thinner instead.)
< 1731180327 750880 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: It might reassure you that Data-E, the subset of E which eventually became JSON, *did* distinguish between `double` and `int` types with syntax. They were mixed to appeal to EMCAScript-first folks.
< 1731180393 320835 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: I can play most percussion instruments just fine. A professional drummer is much better at it than me, that's all. I did something called "drumline" that's fairly popular for folks your age in the USA.
< 1731180417 645233 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :drumline?
< 1731180422 48280 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Your dad might know what I mean when I say "I used to play quints, which are like quads with a gonk in the middle."
< 1731180422 371132 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wahts that
< 1731180443 245589 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also note im not amarican
< 1731180448 821240 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*ame
< 1731180455 209353 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenor_drum#Multi_tenor_drums_(United_States_and_Latin_America)
< 1731180505 925490 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also do you know what a tonewheel organ is? sounds rlly cool
< 1731180521 649868 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the only ooold instrument i know that shounds cool
< 1731180530 678693 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*sounds
< 1731180531 608792 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've not seen one in person, but I've heard of them.
< 1731180568 19496 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :its like house + air + organ basically
< 1731180569 63054 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1731180591 553131 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :back in like idk i think the 00's(?) they used thi as a base in house music
< 1731180593 836418 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*bass
< 1731180599 407991 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I specialize in electric pianos, including the Hammond sound, which is modeled after tonewheels. I also play the Rhodes sound.
< 1731180687 701337 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nice
> 1731180966 357446 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145111&oldid=144768 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+218) 10/* What the hell is HQ9t? */ new section
> 1731180973 491648 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145112&oldid=145111 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+161) 10/* What the hell is HQ9t? */
> 1731181022 550276 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145113&oldid=145112 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+425) 10/* What the hell is HQ9t? */
> 1731181032 766106 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145114&oldid=145113 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+4) 10/* What the hell is HQ9t? */
> 1731181039 191818 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145115&oldid=145114 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+2) 10/* What the hell is HQ9t? */
> 1731181046 129901 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145116&oldid=145115 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+0) 10/* What the hell is HQ9t? */
> 1731181113 183276 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145117&oldid=145116 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+84) 10/* What the hell is HQ9t? */
> 1731181127 44975 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145118&oldid=145117 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (-29) 10/* What the hell is HQ9t? */
< 1731181187 326336 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuu-
< 1731181193 532231 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :😉
< 1731181323 502743 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1731181359 391495 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :> length "Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff"
< 1731181361 114278 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : 67
< 1731181373 542361 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nice
> 1731181384 535043 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145119&oldid=145118 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+188) 10/* What the hell is HQ9t? */
> 1731181399 713301 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145120&oldid=145119 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+20) 10/* What the hell is HQ9t? */
< 1731181839 971730 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1731182020 108570 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :whats the craziest esolang?
< 1731182047 944771 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1731182224 408434 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0725614]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145121&oldid=144588 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+13) 10/* 256.js */
> 1731182433 828526 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:B jonas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145122&oldid=144516 5* 03B jonas 5* (+12) 10/* Games that the esolangs community plays */
> 1731182458 116839 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:B jonas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145123&oldid=145122 5* 03B jonas 5* (+34) 10/* Games that the esolangs community plays */
> 1731182472 108132 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:B jonas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145124&oldid=145123 5* 03B jonas 5* (+0) 10/* Games that the esolangs community plays */
< 1731182583 392318 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1731183095 111392 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: for Mindustry, I'm still using the savefile that I started with Mindustry v6, so it has a lot of existing sectors that I visited before upgrading to v7 and so keep the old map. I'm scared of starting over without all the fancy tools and my existing setups.
< 1731184585 378499 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wWwwW
> 1731184724 528896 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07The nutjob from wellington14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145125&oldid=145108 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+1) 10/* semantics and syntax */
> 1731184738 514647 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07The nutjob from wellington14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145126&oldid=145125 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+0) 10/* infinite loop */
> 1731184773 312429 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07The nutjob from wellington14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145127&oldid=145126 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+30) 10/* semantics and syntax */
> 1731184852 88651 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07The nutjob from wellington14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145128&oldid=145127 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+41) 10/* infinite loop */
< 1731185391 919076 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1731186712 351668 :Guest31!~Guest@161.29.22.222 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Guest
< 1731186756 227142 :Guest31!~Guest@161.29.22.222 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1731187533 476835 :Everything!~Everythin@46.211.124.209 JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
< 1731187928 262016 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca JOIN #esolangs zzo38 :zzo38
< 1731188145 858809 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :About JSON, I think it has some problems and the ones you mentioned are some of them. I think its use of Unicode is also a problem, and that it doesn't store binary data directly, doesn't have optional trailing commas, comments, etc. But there are other possibilities, e.g. a subset of PostScript, or a binary format.
< 1731188319 667372 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : Hmm, what's the better possessive? Rice' or Rice's? the "prescriptive grammar" rule is to use ' only on words that a) end with an "s" sound and b) are plural; "Rice" ends with the correct sound but isn't plural, so it's "Rice's"
< 1731188358 173348 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this does lead to weird-sounding possessives sometimes on singular words that happen to end in an s, such as "grass's" (as opposed to "grasses'")
< 1731188630 292624 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : And why is \u limited to 4 hex digits. :P ← some languages use \x with 2 digits, \u with 4, \U with 8; others use a delimiter, along the lines of \u{12345}, then they can use the same prefix for hex character literals of any length
< 1731188663 266131 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I had been making my own text-based format which can be converted to DER. However, ASN.1 doesn't have a key/vlue list type, but I made up ASN.1X which adds a few types including a key/value list type, so ASN.1X has all of the types necessary for JSON.)
< 1731188690 532633 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :About those, in some programming languages/formats, \x means one byte and \u means a Unicode character so the meaning is not always the same anyways.
< 1731188807 641741 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(My own format allows \x in most string types; Unicode strings can also have \u with four hex digits, and \U with any number of hex digits followed by a semicolon, e.g. UTF8:(\U12345;) for a UTF-8 string with the single character U+12345.)
< 1731188875 80209 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, JavaScript does have a integer type now, although it did not have a integer type at the time that JSON was invented.
< 1731189771 305190 :lynndotpy!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 QUIT :Quit: bye bye
< 1731189824 668403 :lynndotpy!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 JOIN #esolangs lynndotpy :lynn
> 1731190328 283629 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145129&oldid=145120 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+243) 10/* What the hell is HQ9t? */
< 1731192861 468802 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by zzo38_))
< 1731192878 778408 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca JOIN #esolangs zzo38 :zzo38
< 1731192908 744423 :Everything!~Everythin@46.211.124.209 QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1731194416 351178 :baldibacak!~baldibaca@ip199.ip-188-165-135.eu JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] baldibacak
< 1731194466 127349 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Yeah it's a slow game if you capture each base and then try to maximize resource gain from that base and learn how all the new tech fits together.
< 1731195757 393502 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Haskell allows any length without the {}. You can use the zero-length \& to terminate the escape sequence if it's ambiguous.
< 1731196057 243036 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, although I think it might be better to not have ambiguous escape sequences like that