#C b3s23 - b37c8s238 1cpg x = 306, y = 55, rule = B37c8/S238 90bo$90b3o144bo$82bo10bo143b3o$82b3o3b3o2bo2b2o5
< 1731371415 352396 :Galvandi!~Galvandi@190.129.166.248 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Galvandi
> 1731372175 936901 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[073 (islptng)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145301&oldid=145251 5* 03ZCX islptng 5* (+862) 10
< 1731372400 460428 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
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< 1731375923 411360 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :stupid question. there are given N rewards, n kings where n <= N, and for each king, an ordered list of at least one reward (a reward can appear on multiple king's list). when the hero visits a king, the king gives him the first reward from the king's own list that the hero hasn't received yet. the hero visits the kings in some order, each king only once. determine if there's a possible order where a 
< 1731375929 435768 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :king can't give a reward. is it possible to determine this in time polynomial in N? it's possible in nondeterministic polynomial time in N, or exponential time in N.
< 1731375980 648483 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think your definition of "stupid question" is quite different from the usual one :-D
< 1731376168 680894 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's stupid question because I hadn't thought about it too hard before asking
< 1731376183 963616 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1731376204 194606 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's probably either an easy polynomial algorithm or an easy reduction from an NP-complete problem
< 1731376652 981492 :m0ther!~utoneq@user/utoneq JOIN #esolangs zut :utoneq
> 1731377254 573111 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[073 (islptng)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145302&oldid=145301 5* 03ZCX islptng 5* (+34) 10A more powerful interpreter
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> 1731378743 971627 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[073 (islptng)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145303&oldid=145302 5* 03ZCX islptng 5* (+151) 10interpreter update
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> 1731380682 25002 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Community portal14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145304&oldid=144307 5* 03ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries 5* (-117) 10Removed link to locked thread) (----
> 1731380860 533044 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Community portal14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145305&oldid=141711 5* 03ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries 5* (+334) 10Is it possible?) (----
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> 1731382198 726678 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Infinite noise machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145306&oldid=145281 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (-1519) 10/* Example Code */
> 1731382333 670107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Infinite noise machine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145307&oldid=145306 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (-1) 10/* Example Machines */
> 1731382426 396669 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Infinite noise machine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145308&oldid=145307 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+51) 10
> 1731382885 486380 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TWFUNSETDCMFIU14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145309&oldid=140246 5* 03ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries 5* (+8) 10Wrong term) (----
> 1731382887 714771 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Infinite noise automata14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145310 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+2793) 10Rename infinite noise machine to infinite noise automata
> 1731382922 800097 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Infinite noise automata14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145311&oldid=145310 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (-2793) 10Blanked the page
> 1731382972 76685 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03RainbowDash 5*  10moved [[02Infinite noise machine10]] to [[Infinite-noise automata]]: I want to rename it to Infinite noise automata
> 1731383035 657357 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Infinite-noise automata14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145314&oldid=145312 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+140) 10
> 1731383195 503688 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Infinite-noise automata14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145315&oldid=145314 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (-10) 10
> 1731383396 635787 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:No-code esolang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145316&oldid=131177 5* 03ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries 5* (+74) 10
> 1731384509 23514 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RainbowDash14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145317&oldid=145280 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (-601) 10
< 1731385889 730746 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it's NP-complete. https://mathb.in/80141
< 1731388952 351493 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wWwwW
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< 1731397404 77582 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1731397867 663070 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1731397924 34903 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1731398044 707202 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1731398045 275084 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: thank you, I think that works, nice construction
> 1731398218 552313 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145318&oldid=144977 5* 03ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries 5* (+25) 10----) (Fixed user page redirect
< 1731400055 739029 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1731401942 48883 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SML14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145319&oldid=144959 5* 03Froginstarch 5* (+30) 10/* Instructions */
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> 1731404707 431243 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03QuantumV 5*  10New user account
> 1731404923 380618 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145320&oldid=145282 5* 03QuantumV 5* (+147) 10
< 1731408242 981772 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1731408982 829066 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Ractangle 5*  10moved [[02310]] to [[3 (AndrewBayly)]]
> 1731409076 529830 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SML14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145323&oldid=145319 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-12) 10why do you even need a "main" label
< 1731411175 858192 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Heya
< 1731411423 352335 :Guest65!~Guest65@176.76.226.33 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Guest65
< 1731411437 808002 :Guest65!~Guest65@176.76.226.33 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1731412503 200461 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1731412758 758678 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Client Quit
< 1731412815 458413 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1731412820 411494 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1731413556 352042 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:8d60:d5b0:dacd:a37a:e880 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] iddi01
< 1731413578 108118 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:8d60:d5b0:dacd:a37a:e880 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust clock >>>+<-<-(>(-)*128<+[<(---+)*-1]-)*8>+[-((-)*256<+[<(---+)*-1]->)*8(-)*-1](+)*21<(-)*33(>)*11([(-)*106[-.][--+[--+]]>]>)*21
< 1731413579 172114 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :iddi01.clock: points 5.93, score 33.55, rank 4/47
< 1731413608 663713 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:8d60:d5b0:dacd:a37a:e880 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Looks like i'm not so terrible at defense programs ;)
< 1731414639 365229 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:8d60:d5b0:dacd:a37a:e880 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1731419603 364513 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wWwwW
< 1731419710 1438 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hey ais523 i shared this esolang with you: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Final_Word_Of_The_Day
< 1731419710 502070 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you asked: "i wonder if you can specify it down to a single specification"
< 1731419711 2218 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i wanted to rehash this question
< 1731420208 357530 :wWwwW14!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wWwwW
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> 1731420841 585082 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BFBASIC14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145324&oldid=118462 5* 03None1 5* (+13) 10404
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< 1731429075 664577 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anybody?
< 1731429130 840011 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1731430643 593363 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SML14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145325&oldid=145323 5* 03Corbin 5* (+59) 10Not to be confused with Standard ML.
< 1731430702 564850 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: It's not possible to be TC and also only have exactly one quine, I think.
< 1731430727 489613 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :why should that be?
< 1731430728 581129 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The folklore version of this is easy: without loss of generality, programs in TC languages have access to their own source code.
< 1731430749 963835 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1731430865 76212 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Similarly, I think that TC languages will always admit non-narcissist self-interpreters. Certainly they'll have non-narcissist interpreters for *other* TC languages, so that self-interpretation isn't a special case.
< 1731430922 335366 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sad :(
< 1731430997 80545 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Why? They're just numbers. No amount of emotion can change whether something is provable.
< 1731431021 224787 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :true. but i still find it sad
< 1731431023 767906 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :A better approach would be to assume that I'm bullshitting and wrong, and look for more rigorous reasons to support or dismiss my claims.
< 1731431034 168720 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :true
< 1731431037 378012 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well ill try
< 1731431038 377897 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1731431160 815769 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: Consider a language where printing is the main effect, and imagine running two programs in that language, one after the other. If the first program prints "A" and the second program prints "B", then they'll together print "AB", right?
< 1731431203 358906 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :not if somehow you restrict it such that no program can be appended to another one and they function
< 1731431205 400833 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like
< 1731431210 774904 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But now imagine that we have two programs which are quines, say programs A and B. If we run A and then B, we get "AB". So, this means that your language needs to not have a way to combine A and B to make a new program AB.
< 1731431216 644220 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :all prograns are kinda "closed off" from each other
< 1731431234 184460 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also
< 1731431259 73154 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if we say "each quine is one command" then a reduction could happen
< 1731431275 697859 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(cuz one command plugged into another becomes a third)
< 1731431297 592625 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. In general, what you're looking for is called a "prefix-free" system: no program is a prefix of another program.
< 1731431319 391778 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc9:5401:439:26c9:6552:a81e JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic
< 1731431328 318570 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Where "prefix" means what you think it means: A is a prefix of AB because AB can be broken into two pieces and the first piece is equivalent to A.
< 1731431335 251961 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so unless FWOTD cant be preefix free then its just that ig
< 1731431371 430110 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : wWwwW: It's not possible to be TC and also only have exactly one quine, I think. ← I think it's possible in uninteresting ways, e.g. if the *only* program that produces output is a quine
< 1731431391 621842 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, well, imagine any TC language that can't produce output, the only quine is the null program
< 1731431419 917979 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I didn't even think about that. I assumed that we were talking about the ability to print any string whatsoever. Whoops.
< 1731431467 529038 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :true. for all we know it cna have n output(well no cuz narrcicist. unless self interpriting can "produce output". hmmm)
< 1731431484 79519 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nLab has a hilarious page about that: https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/too+simple+to+be+simple
< 1731431537 273416 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: Wait, does this language actually exist, or is your page asking a question about how to build such a language?
< 1731431563 28385 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :latter
< 1731431576 614190 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :last time I thought about generalised versions of this sort of thing, I wound up getting really stuck on the definition of Turing-completeness – for some of the resulting languages there was clearly a program with the same behaviour as any given program in a TC language, but the compilation process was potentially uncomputable, and I think that's enough to *not* actually be TC (otherwise you compile all halting programs into an empty program and all non-
< 1731431578 170439 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :halting programs into an infinite loop)
< 1731431589 616076 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: FWOTD is basically a puzzle "design an esolang with this properties", rather than a language
< 1731431606 733591 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Sure. I suppose I'm wondering what makes those properties interesting.
< 1731431641 158318 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it might just be a randomly generated puzzle, with some amount of human insight that aims to make it not trivially easy or trivially impossible
< 1731431649 179176 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :We don't even have a hint about uniqueness or universe. I guess I should assume that languages have symbols, words, grammar, etc.?
< 1731431657 777983 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :don't underestimate the interest that comes from randomly generated puzzles, I have dealt with those a lot in the past
< 1731431670 366113 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: I sent you a private message
< 1731431713 39512 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, I love jigsaw puzzles! But that doesn't mean that it's easy to learn how to use a jigsaw, and I really don't want wWwwW to think that jigsaw puzzles are jigsaws.
> 1731431768 341900 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SML14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145326&oldid=145325 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+30) 10make external link
> 1731431781 739989 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SML14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145327&oldid=145326 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+0) 10pipe fumble
> 1731431948 993072 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SML14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145328&oldid=145327 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+3) 10also some adjustments
< 1731432018 118434 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: waht. sorry if im stupid but umm
< 1731432023 123999 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :arent they the same???
> 1731432077 642975 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Memoryleek14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145329 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+24) 10redirect
< 1731432087 315459 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: nowadays "jigsaw" is often used as an abbreviation for "jigsaw puzzle", but there is a type of saw called a "jigsaw" which used to be used to make the puzzels
< 1731432100 413474 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh ok
< 1731432147 723018 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :when I search "jigsaw" in Wikipedia, I get a disambiguation page between "Jigsaw puzzle" and "Jigsaw (tool)"
< 1731432152 649117 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is what I expected
> 1731432160 446213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07The nutjob from wellington14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145330&oldid=145145 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (-3042) 10Blanked the page
< 1731432174 608736 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :makes sense
> 1731432209 601305 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MEMORYLEEK14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145331&oldid=145064 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+2) 10changing the file extension because ''apparently'' there's a language called ML which uses the file extension ML! absolutely ballistic!
> 1731432310 330609 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10deleted "[[02The nutjob from wellington10]]": Author request: blanked by author, recently created and only trivial edits by other users
< 1731432510 103120 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway umm frick
< 1731432662 886836 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh no
< 1731432673 392776 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well
< 1731432677 870154 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :im keeping a list now
< 1731432685 356952 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* pre-fix free
< 1731432719 504502 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I think to make FWOTD work, lots and lots of programs have to be a narcissist due to the difficulty of working out whether a program is a self-interpreter or not
< 1731432730 853617 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeas
< 1731432750 224185 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe there is a "standard"/"command" for self interpreting
< 1731432764 336613 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it is going to depend somewhat on how you define self-interpreters in the presence of I/O
< 1731432800 569470 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1731432803 747807 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in arbitrarily languages, a program normally takes some number of inputs (usually 0 or 1) – to write a self-interpreter that handles I/O, it needs one more input, because it needs all the inputs to the program it's interpreting plus the program itself
< 1731432805 961404 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :WHICH is important
< 1731432839 459039 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this came up in, e.g., Advance The Wheel! where I defined a way for programs to take arbitrarily many inputs, that was important to make the self-interpreter simpler
< 1731432865 431493 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow i got somebody interested in ma esolang
< 1731432870 535544 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is new
< 1731432920 191031 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: A jigsaw is a very dangerous power tool. They can remove fingers easily. Similarly, I have an ethical duty to discourage folks from creating the next PHP; language authors need to learn security at some point.
< 1731432944 327013 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, because self-interpreters have to also be narcissists, it's like they have an extra *output* compared to the program they're interpreting
< 1731432968 356575 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :as such, I think you bypass the narcissist problem entirely by giving every program an additional output, that states whether the source code and input are the same
< 1731432988 40766 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it cn be defined as "a program that takes at least two inputs, and returns atleast one"?
< 1731433002 611380 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(well no but like its a place to start)
< 1731433040 246922 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :when designing esolangs you have a lot of flexibility to define the inputs and outputs
< 1731433089 760901 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Another option, taking a page from Futamura, is to require two typed inputs: the normal input data, and also a FWOTD program as source code! This requires you to have a FWOTD program which copies input data to output and ignores the input program, so that you can ignore the input program in general.
< 1731433119 47334 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION wonders about designing a joke esolang where the inputs are really awkward, e.g. real-life, life-sized statues

< 1731433132 81157 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow that sentence confused my brain
< 1731433205 665104 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Futamura projections seem to confuse everybody. But you don't have to go that deep; just recognize that there's a difference between input data (as like text or whatever) and input programs (as ASTs or other abstract syntax).
< 1731433220 41230 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :k
< 1731433301 789376 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think ais523's point about additional outputs could be combined with my point. So each program would get two inputs (some data and a program) and two outputs (the normal output, and also whether the interpreter thinks that the input data matches the input program)
< 1731433562 261313 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess that the narcissism is a property of the interpreter, not the programs? Or it's a property of programs which is verified by the interpreter?
< 1731433598 710169 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i originally thought former
< 1731433600 516554 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so
< 1731433603 976684 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea
< 1731433767 10871 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :**warning i may leave soon*
< 1731433880 426048 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :No worries. I need to go get breakfast. Take it easy.
< 1731433901 914568 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and i cant come back cuz idk stupid rules)
< 1731434007 323543 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"It's not possible to be TC and also only have exactly one quine" => that's mostly true, but technically only if the TC part can also write output arbitrarily. You could easily define a language that is TC but can only output ascii consonants and the program source code needs vowels, or something like that.
< 1731434070 169709 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we have talked a lot about this
< 1731434100 46561 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, I'm still reading the backlog
< 1731434125 104916 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nice lol
< 1731434235 579149 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i hvae 2 min left guys lol
< 1731434249 161893 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(ill check logs if you want to talk after i leave
< 1731434366 862081 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah right, ais523 already mentioned what I said
> 1731434719 205346 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SML14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145332&oldid=145328 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-1) 10
< 1731434919 152388 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm confused, does https://sleef.org/ have release tarballs hidden somewhere, or am I supposed to just checkout a release tag in its git repository?
< 1731435242 726390 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know some software libraries these days only provide a git repo, most notably mpir
< 1731435361 585109 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1731436312 609475 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1731436813 657545 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"where the inputs are really awkward" => I work in industry where all our inputs come from sensors (such as pressure and temperature meters or switches) of which the hardware is expensive. this is partly because they are brand name stuff where the vendor does not put an "for recrational purposes, no warranties" sticker on them, and partly because some of them have to work in a corrosive or high 
< 1731436819 647375 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :temperature or low temperature or flammable environment, and many of them can't be replaced without stopping production which is expensive. some of this applies not only to the sensors themselves but also the hardware connecting them to the computers, and to the output devices. 
< 1731437057 907013 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"real-life, life-sized statues" => no statues as such, but this involves ten meter tall tanks that must not leak under a large pressure, also two meter tall tanks that must tolerate high temperature, with an expensive use-once emergency exit that breaks exactly in the right safe way at a specific pressure. 
< 1731437091 783768 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I think some of the equipment counts as larger than life-sized
< 1731437368 960528 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I'd guess you're supposed to grab the sleef code from https://github.com/shibatch/sleef/releases
< 1731437491 6624 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: indeed, thank you
< 1731437937 558908 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I once worked for a manufacturing startup and one of my research projects took machined metal parts as inputs. I might summarize that project as: But Is It a Developable Surface?
< 1731439108 617403 :callforjudgement!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1731439112 973499 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by callforjudgement))
< 1731439115 375076 :callforjudgement!~ais523@user/ais523 NICK :ais523
< 1731439341 188976 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1731439415 208968 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MEMORYLEEK14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145333&oldid=145331 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-26) 10
< 1731439792 392940 :callforjudgement!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1731439803 69949 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by callforjudgement))
< 1731439806 176404 :callforjudgement!~ais523@user/ais523 NICK :ais523
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< 1731440224 736877 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1731445212 710660 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc9:5401:439:26c9:6552:a81e QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1731445469 623800 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Aadenboy 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:BoxDrawingDemo1.gif10]]"
> 1731445595 47409 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145335&oldid=144989 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+488) 10promotion I guess
< 1731447284 984378 :Everything!~Everythin@94.153.19.2 JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
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< 1731450351 10631 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :How to tell ITU or ISO a proposal of a OID arc, which will not require registration and will have a number of days since some epoch, and a type of identification, the identification by that type, and then any extra parts that you want to assign?
< 1731453053 371127 :Everything!~Everythin@178-133-145-205.mobile.vf-ua.net JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
< 1731453340 837043 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`unidecode 𒀱
< 1731453343 94172 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​[U+12031 CUNEIFORM SIGN AN PLUS NAGA SQUARED]
< 1731454965 602692 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Night
< 1731455256 595327 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1731455820 666833 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds