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01:19:08 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * .k *  New user account
01:23:44 <esolangs> [[+++]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148918&oldid=145142 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+75) 
04:29:55 <b_jonas> Matt parker tried to arrange a secret Santa among Youtuber mathematicians, the present buying assignment decided by a cryptographical protocol with no central authority: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqOb5n3BIn0
04:32:59 <b_jonas> just like most such cryptography, I consider this esoteric, because it would be easier for them to find a trusted third party
04:33:22 <korvo> It's a great example of "secure multiparty computation" also called "SMPC". Interestingly, this particular example, computing a cycle, is not in the Red Book.
04:34:28 <b_jonas> yes, it's certainly an interesting enough problem to be worth the research
04:34:31 <korvo> b_jonas: Indeed. The Red Book's relevant chapter is called "Esoteric Protocols" and also includes topics that are definitely relevant to mainstream practice: secure elections, anonymous broadcasting, and digital cash!
04:35:12 <b_jonas> agreed, such protocols are worth to research because they can have non-esoteric applications
04:35:57 <korvo> The trusted third party doesn't even have to be that trusted; they don't have to know who folks are. Trent can pick random permutations; these almost always embed at least one derangement, and everybody in that derangement can be assigned a temporary partner while another, smaller random permutation is picked recursively.
04:36:21 <korvo> Then any cycle-like properties can be statistically built using random-permutation theory.
04:40:14 <b_jonas> "they don't have to know who folks are" => that's also esoteric, but the secret third party could get a list of public keys, one for each participant, shuffle a gift-giving cycle, for each participant encrypt with their public key who they're giving a gift to, then publish the encoded names. but that's also a rather esoteric optimization, since all 18 participants know who the other 17 are, and they're 
04:40:20 <b_jonas> all already Youtubers so somewhat publicly known people.
04:42:21 <b_jonas> you need a bit more complicated algorithm if you also want each gift giver to get the mail address of the recipient, but nobody learn unnecessary mail addresses
04:43:55 <korvo> Yep. That part of the protocol *is* in the Red Book; it's the same technique used to verify the eligibility of voters in a secure election. It would be possible to confirm that exactly one person has accessed each address.
04:44:19 <korvo> (Because each access has to leave behind a pubkey which can be used to audit that access.)
04:47:13 <b_jonas> which red book is this? I assume it's not the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry (IUPAC) Nomenclature of Inorganic Chemistry 
04:56:32 <zzo38> I also don't know what red book it is; I was going to ask too
04:58:09 <zzo38> (I would think also that it is probably not the red book of IUPAC and also that it is not the red book of audio CDs, but there are probably other red books)
04:58:26 <zzo38> I have some books written by Matt Parker but not the videos.
05:03:10 <korvo> "Applied Cryptography" by Schneier. It's a standard cryptography overview; I have it on my shelf mostly as a demonstration of the underlying First/Second Amendment rights it embodies.
05:06:57 <b_jonas> thanks
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06:02:09 <korvo> Huh. Maybe the theory of attitudes is just the type-level theory of jets.
06:02:55 <korvo> In Cammy, I formalized jets; a jet is merely a replacement for an expression in terms of other expressions, partially ordered with respect to occurrence in other jets.
06:05:13 <korvo> Perhaps an attitude is a type alias which is partially ordered WRT other attitudes. The partial order serves the same purpose as for jets: it prevents users defining systems which aren't well-founded.
06:34:48 <esolangs> [[11]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=148919 * DifferentDance8 * (+803) Created page with "11 is an esolang made by [[User:DifferentDance8]], approximately 2 days after christmas :P I named it as such because 11 was the first number to not have an article here, and because 11 is a cool number (as such, EVERY SINGLE COMMAND is 11-themed in some way)  {| clas
09:27:24 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148920&oldid=147949 * PkmnQ * (+631) /* List of candidates */ Thought [[FALSE]] would have been one of the previously featured languages, but apparently not.
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11:06:11 <esolangs> [[UserEdited]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148921&oldid=148817 * PrySigneToFry * (+925) 
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11:12:33 <esolangs> [[(PSTF)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148922&oldid=148470 * PrySigneToFry * (+112) 
11:14:57 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/BRING BACK THE OLD SANDBOX]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148923&oldid=141827 * PrySigneToFry * (+104) 
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11:40:43 <ais523> !zjoust backstop http://nethack4.org/pastebin/backstop.bfjoust
11:40:43 <zemhill> ais523.backstop: points 9.98, score 34.04, rank 3/47
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11:46:17 <ais523> !zjoust backstop http://nethack4.org/pastebin/backstop.bfjoust
11:46:18 <zemhill> ais523.backstop: points 9.98, score 34.04, rank 3/47 (--)
11:46:26 <ais523> forgot to add the generation script
11:48:16 <ais523> !zjoust backstop http://nethack4.org/pastebin/backstop.bfjoust
11:48:16 <zemhill> ais523.backstop: points 9.98, score 34.04, rank 3/47 (--)
11:48:26 <ais523> and golfed a bit
11:50:53 <APic> o/
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12:03:33 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Gian07 *  New user account
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12:08:18 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148924&oldid=148750 * Gian07 * (+136) 
12:08:26 <ais523> so, there seems to be another rock-paper-scissors-like cycle in BF Joust, in addition to the antishudder/triplock cycle: setting decoys early loses to tape length estimators, whereas setting decoys late loses to fast rush
12:08:50 <ais523> and to pokes
12:09:35 <ais523> but there isn't much fast rush or poke on the hill at the moment, which is why backstop does well (and yet there is enough that I can't easily get the strategy into first place)
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12:51:08 <esolangs> [[true]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148925&oldid=148847 * 47 * (-149) fuck true.js, i can't code in js
12:51:37 <esolangs> [[true]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148926&oldid=148925 * 47 * (-9) /* Unimplemented */
12:51:59 <esolangs> [[true]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148927&oldid=148926 * 47 * (-62) /* Unimplemented */
12:52:14 <esolangs> [[true]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148928&oldid=148927 * 47 * (+1) /* Unimplemented */
12:54:12 <esolangs> [[5D Deadfish with Multiverse Time Travel]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=148929 * Gian07 * (+2035) Created page with "{{stub}}  '''5D Deadfish with Multiverse Time Travel''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] invented by Gianluca Rainis in 2024. It was inspired by the [[5D Brainfuck With Multiverse Time Travel]], the [[5D 5D Brainfuck With Multiverse
12:54:45 <esolangs> [[true]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148930&oldid=148928 * 47 * (+1) /* Infinite loop */
12:56:12 <isabella> i've been writing a 3d engine thingy in a language that's not really very esoteric but still pretty limited for the task at hand
12:58:09 <isabella> it's been pretty fun but i'm constantly hitting a performance ceiling where i can't do as much as i would like to
12:58:13 <isabella> or at least not fast enough
13:00:25 <isabella> and i've never written a game engine before so i don't really know what i'm doing
13:01:00 <isabella> the 3d maths is a pain and my movement feels weird
13:13:43 <esolangs> [[5D Deadfish with Multiverse Time Travel]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148931&oldid=148929 * Gian07 * (+747) 
13:16:20 <esolangs> [[5D Deadfish with Multiverse Time Travel]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148932&oldid=148931 * Gian07 * (+0) 
13:22:58 <esolangs> [[true]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148933&oldid=148930 * 47 * (-56) /* Unimplemented */
13:25:21 <esolangs> [[true]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148934&oldid=148933 * 47 * (+47) /* Implemented */
13:27:47 <esolangs> [[5D Deadfish with Multiverse Time Travel]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148935&oldid=148932 * Gian07 * (+907) 
13:31:00 <esolangs> [[5D Deadfish with Multiverse Time Travel]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148936&oldid=148935 * Gian07 * (+21) /* Examples */
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14:05:57 <ais523> CPUs are generally bad at doing 3D graphics calculations quickly, that's why GPUs were invented
14:07:12 <int-e> But that didn't stop anybody from trying. :)
14:08:10 <ais523> if the language is inappropriate it means you may not be able to vectorise either, which would make the calculations even slower
14:08:13 <int-e> (False as written. But enough people tried to give us a bunch of 3D games before the advent of GPUs)
14:09:29 <ais523> I think some early games had the bulk of the calculations precalculated
14:10:08 <isabella> i don't even have floats lol
14:10:13 <isabella> let alone vectors
14:10:54 <ais523> I think this definitely counts as esoprogramming even if it's in a non-eso language :-D
14:11:00 <isabella> nice lol
14:12:02 <isabella> i can show a short demo in a bit, i'm trying to debug what's causing me to drop frames despite my code drawing them in time
14:12:36 <isabella> there's so many moving pieces outside of my control and i know nothing about 90% of them
14:14:40 <int-e> With GPUs we instantly got higher resolutions and more polygons.
14:14:57 <ais523> one thing that annoys me about modern programming is how many layers there are that are all trying to build something on the layer directly below, which is often inefficient compared to going down an additional layer or two
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14:16:46 <int-e> but can you justify the extra programming effort to management :P
14:18:30 <ais523> sometimes the extra effort is negative :-P
14:19:05 <ais523> makefiles are a good example, it is normally easier to reimplement the relevant parts of make for your project than it is to write a makefile generator that handles all the possible corner cases
14:20:49 <ais523> (I guess a pithy way to express that is "make is easier to write than makefiles are"
14:20:51 <ais523> )
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14:21:29 <int-e> I kind of like the make eso?lang
14:21:57 <int-e> but the sweet spot is probably medium sized projects that don't need to be portable
14:24:00 <int-e> Plus the world has moved to a place where every new language has its own build tool.
14:24:23 <ais523> I've been using actual POSIX make for some things semi-recently
14:24:55 <ais523> it is a weird environment to write for, especially if you want to be compatible with extensions like VPATH
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14:26:37 <int-e> probably my most silly use of `make` is parallelizing certain computations (split computation into chunks, have a single-threaded program that can process a chunk, write a makefile rule that produces an output file per chunk)
14:27:32 <int-e> it's also totally wrong in that it doesn't scale to multiple compute nodes :)
14:28:23 <int-e> so this is strictly for personal use
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15:09:06 <isabella> i now think i'm missing frames because my video drivers are fucked
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15:30:41 <isabella> doesn't happen in i3 so it's a gnome thing
15:30:48 <isabella> anyway i can now record the video
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15:38:31 <isabella> https://streamable.com/3wgjbq   short demo
15:39:30 <isabella> not particularly exciting
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15:54:12 <esolangs> [[(ch34t) c0d3]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148937&oldid=144410 * Gggfr * (+23) /* Computational class */
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16:22:58 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148938&oldid=147420 * Yayimhere * (+74) /* things about me */
16:31:14 <korvo> isabella: Nice! Very cool.
16:31:41 <isabella> ty!
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17:43:54 <esolangs> [[Jive]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148939&oldid=148906 * 47 * (+60) 
18:07:45 <esolangs> [[Jive]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148940&oldid=148939 * 47 * (+25) /* Syntax */
18:08:12 <esolangs> [[Jive]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148941&oldid=148940 * 47 * (+21) 
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18:24:25 <esolangs> [[COPY WITH @]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148942&oldid=135609 * 47 * (+2) 
18:48:30 <esolangs> [[COPY WITH @]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148943&oldid=148942 * 47 * (+41) /* Examples */
18:50:11 <esolangs> [[COPY WITH @]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148944&oldid=148943 * 47 * (+134) /* External resources */
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19:31:31 <esolangs> [[User talk:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148945&oldid=147509 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+78) 
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20:48:42 <esolangs> [[User:TheCanon2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148946&oldid=140150 * TheCanon2 * (+26) Added Hito
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21:11:02 <esolangs> [[Hito]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=148947 * TheCanon2 * (+1286) Created page with "Hito means 'one' in Japanese. Hito is a [[OISC|one-instruction]] [[#Computational class|Turing-complete]] esoteric programming language created by [[User:TheCanon2]].  Hito was designed because of a critical the way its sister language [[Ichi]] handles input. In [[Ichi#C
21:13:46 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148948&oldid=148924 * .k * (+187) :3
21:25:14 <esolangs> [[Hito]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148949&oldid=148947 * TheCanon2 * (+748) 
21:31:13 <wryl> Multisets suck.
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21:44:14 <esolangs> [[Hito]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148950&oldid=148949 * TheCanon2 * (+1686) Completed article
21:50:17 <esolangs> [[Hito]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148951&oldid=148950 * TheCanon2 * (+36) categories
21:51:34 <esolangs> [[Hito]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148952&oldid=148951 * TheCanon2 * (-36) 
21:52:18 <esolangs> [[Ichi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148953&oldid=148598 * TheCanon2 * (+62) 
21:54:07 <esolangs> [[OISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148954&oldid=148800 * TheCanon2 * (+9) 
22:10:26 <esolangs> [[Hito]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148955&oldid=148952 * TheCanon2 * (+7) 
22:10:46 <esolangs> [[Hito]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148956&oldid=148955 * TheCanon2 * (-9) grammar
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22:18:20 <int-e> huh
22:18:26 <int-e> wryl: what is the issue?
22:20:32 <wryl> Access without a mechanism for constant time lookup necessitates search.
22:21:16 <int-e> sounds like your issue is with a particular implementation of multisets as a data structure
22:21:28 <int-e> (and here I was thinking about the mathematical concept)
22:21:33 <wryl> That'd be it, yeah.
22:24:07 <int-e> maybe you can roll your own starting with a hash map from items to an unsigned int
22:25:44 <wryl> The mapping gets murky once you get pattern matching involved.
22:26:18 <wryl> Tuple spaces are awkward as fuck.
22:26:38 <wryl> You bend some way or another, sacrifice memory for time, it's all the same.
22:27:51 <wryl> You get into SPARQL like pattern matching, you get into backtracking search.
22:28:09 <wryl> Complexity explodes.
22:30:08 <wryl> Forget doing it real-time.
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23:27:29 <esolangs> [[StackSwap]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=148957 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+1993) Created page with "'''StackSwap''' is an esolang by [[User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] designed around function calls.  == Syntax == A StackSwap program is a series of function definiti
23:28:02 <esolangs> [[User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148958&oldid=148788 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+61) 
23:32:20 <wryl> We will never escape the trap of these sequential machines.