00:02:34 -!- mtm has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:06:05 -!- mtm has joined. 00:44:09 -!- craigo has joined. 00:49:36 `? cdop 00:49:39 CDOP is OCPD, except with the letters in the *proper* order. 01:38:26 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:44:56 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:25:07 https://lykaina.sdf.org/esolangs/catline.b93 02:26:30 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:29:10 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:54:29 [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151047&oldid=151022 * I am islptng * (-1660) I don't want to leave my real name here anymore. 02:55:34 [[Free Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151048&oldid=151031 * PrySigneToFry * (+118) 02:55:39 [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151049&oldid=151047 * I am islptng * (-86) /* Soft redirect */ 02:58:06 [[SLet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151050&oldid=150476 * I am islptng * (+1) 02:58:41 [[TripletNOR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151051&oldid=123297 * I am islptng * (+1) 02:59:15 [[StackBBQ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151052&oldid=144161 * I am islptng * (+1) 02:59:37 [[Alivehyperfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151053&oldid=144452 * I am islptng * (+1) 03:00:07 [[JSFlak]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151054&oldid=144966 * I am islptng * (+1) 03:01:19 [[Talk:Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151055&oldid=137748 * PrySigneToFry * (+902) 03:02:16 [[User:Tommyaweosmalt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151056&oldid=149472 * PrySigneToFry * (+5) Wouldn't "The admin" will better? 03:04:41 [[Gift]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151057&oldid=144126 * PrySigneToFry * (+141) 03:04:42 [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151058&oldid=150954 * I am islptng * (+588) /* Any interests on joining our Esolang Tencent QQ group? */ 03:09:26 [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151059&oldid=151058 * PrySigneToFry * (+941) 03:19:24 [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151060&oldid=151059 * I am islptng * (+606) /* */ 03:25:50 [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151061&oldid=151060 * PrySigneToFry * (+878) 03:49:48 [[User:Aadenboy/00=0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151062&oldid=149925 * Aadenboy * (-3431) blanking in preparation of eventual move 03:50:13 [[User:Aadenboy/Ultimate warsides]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151063&oldid=150218 * Aadenboy * (-6081) blanking 03:50:31 night all 03:50:43 -!- Lykaina has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:50:44 [[User:Aadenboy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151064&oldid=150566 * Aadenboy * (-65) /* anything else */ 04:23:19 -!- ais523 has joined. 04:23:49 FireFly: ```unefunge #define AAAA __TIME__ $$$$$$$$"!dlrow ,olleH"zzzzzzz ← I like the way it has a backwards "Hello, world!", that must be the Unefunge influence on the output 05:09:29 -!- craigo has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:21:35 [[Zyxonia/Common Command List]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151065 * PrySigneToFry * (+2175) Created page with "{{Back|Zyxonia}} Here are more analyzation for every command. = System command control = 
 do SubroutineName Indicates the beginning of a subroutine (or function). end Indicates the end of a subroutine (or function). CLS Clear the screen.
06:22:26  [[Zyxonia]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151066&oldid=150975 * PrySigneToFry * (+60) 
06:34:33  Why is the object identifiers for BLAKE2 only the number of hash bits which is divisible by thirty-two, as far as I can tell? I thought BLAKE2 uses number of hash bits which is divisible by eight?
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07:12:22  [[Stackfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151067&oldid=151038 * Cycwin * (+43) 
07:13:14  [[Stackfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151068&oldid=151067 * Cycwin * (+2) 
07:27:08  [[Stackfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151069&oldid=151068 * I am islptng * (+740) 
08:55:29  [[Stackfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151070&oldid=151069 * Cycwin * (-1) 
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09:33:30  [[Stackfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151071&oldid=151070 * Cycwin * (+53) 
10:29:04  zzo38: I don't know what object identifiers you're talking of
10:40:24  are you familiar with how we link to nontrivial brainfuck projects from the wiki? I'm not much into brainfuck so I'm not sure. I want to add https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmFmsn6VZSM which is about a large brainfuck program https://github.com/mitxela/bf-tic-tac-toe with some popular introduction to brainfuck.
10:42:07  also the video links to https://www.linusakesson.net/programming/brainfuck/index.php which I somehow wasn't aware of, presumably I just don't click on links that say "Brainfuck" 
10:42:57  do I just put these under https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck#External_resources or is there a better place?
10:54:06  [[Brainfuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151072&oldid=149332 * B jonas * (+286) /* External resources */
10:55:49  [[Brainfuck implementations]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151073&oldid=150818 * B jonas * (+96) Infrabuck, a Brainfuck compiler for Win32 by mitxela
11:19:40  [[User:I am islptng]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151074&oldid=150045 * I am islptng * (-19) 
11:21:14  [[User:I am islptng]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151075&oldid=151074 * I am islptng * (-120) 
11:51:18  [[Cav]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151076&oldid=80555 * Calculus is fun * (+0) Incorrect homophone fixed
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12:18:45  [[User:MihaiEso]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151077&oldid=147596 * MihaiEso * (-7) 
12:33:44  [[MoreMathRPN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151078&oldid=150896 * Calculus is fun * (+8) /* Leaping back */ changed inconsistent plurals
12:39:13  [[Funciton]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151079&oldid=150564 * Timwi * (-210) Update the example factorial function, which has changed a fair bit
12:44:30  [[MoreMathRPN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151080&oldid=151078 * Calculus is fun * (-44) Changed condition example
12:55:53  [[MoreMathRPN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151081&oldid=151080 * Calculus is fun * (+0) /* Creating conditions */
12:59:38  [[MoreMathRPN]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151082&oldid=151081 * Calculus is fun * (+11) minor formatting
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14:24:55  b_jonas: you can link any relevant external page from External resources, although if the list gets long it males sense to sort it with subheadings (that doesn't happen for most esolangs though) – there's an exception for the BF page in particular where most implementations got moved to a subpage for length reasons
14:25:31  ok
14:38:11  [[SeedFuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151083&oldid=151043 * None1 * (+5) 
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14:55:23  [[User talk:MihaiEso]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151084&oldid=150928 * PrySigneToFry * (+95) /* 0x1F609 */ new section
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17:16:14  is esolangs.org offline?
17:18:35  Probably.
17:19:18  i got: 504 Gateway Time-out
17:24:03  ais523: esolangs.org is not working
17:24:58  Ah, you want something to be done about it.
17:25:52  Lykaina: I am the wrong person to ping for that, you want to ping fizzie
17:26:03  I moderate the site, but I don't own it
17:26:18  fizzie: esolangs.org is not working
17:26:33  it does appear to be down, though
17:26:53  logs.esolangs.org is still up, that might help narrow down the issues somewhat
17:27:46  Hmm.
17:27:56  I was just about to head out for groceries.
17:29:46  Pursue work-life balance. The server can wait.
17:30:20  i need a sample "hello world" in befunge
17:31:07  Lykaina: give me a moment
17:31:10  25*"!dlrow ,olleH">:#,_@   is what my memory suggests as the canonical one.
17:31:28  here: https://tio.run/##S0pNK81LT/3/X0kxJacoP1xBJz8nJ9VDyc5KWSfe4f9/AA
17:31:48  Mine's got an extra newline in it, otherwise it's the same.
17:32:01  ah, fizzie's has a newline, I got mine from a codegolf collection so they leave newlines out whenever they can get away with it :-)
17:32:17  https://zem.fi/tmp/cpu.png <- that doesn't look great.
17:32:39  I'll see if just restarting nginx or something fixes it, otherwise it'll have to wait until after shopping.
17:36:08  FTR, there's been some pretty aggressive "clearly crawling without a crawler UA" crawling going on for the last couple of weeks again.
17:38:49  Or else a number of people are *really* interested in old article versions and diff pages, and also always follow the link to Special:CreateAccount from constantly but don't actually make accounts.
17:38:57  Which sounds somewhat unlikely.
17:39:45  I wonder whether we could put some sort of invisible trap link on the page that blocks your IP if you visit it, robots.txt'd out and not visible to normal browsers
17:41:22  It might end up with a pretty long blocklist, the rate is roughly 5-10 qps but only one request every 15 minutes or so from any single IP.
17:41:38  It can be done wholly with nginx but it's a bit of a pain. First, identify possible crawlers based on high request rate. Second, serve invisible trap links to possible crawlers. Third, put anybody who clicks the trap link into a 24hr slow-loris jail.
17:41:39  Which are all regular consumer ISPs.
17:41:57  Do *not* block crawlers. It only burns their IPs, which are no longer as expensive as they used to be.
17:42:23  It's not that easy to distinguish these requests from legitimate ones TBH.
17:42:53  It can't be done per-request. It requires a context that associates each request with a likelihood of crawling.
17:43:28  And serving invisible trap links can't be done anymore; crawlers use browser heads to prune out links that humans can't see.
17:43:50  korvo: these ones might not – they're disregarding robots.txt, which most crawling frameworks wouldn't
17:43:59  ...Sorry, I'm in "free advice" mode. I'll fuck off and find breakfast.
17:44:27  ais523: robots.txt is for humans, not bots; it can't possibly protect a site.
17:45:53  korvo: well, it's for well-behaved bots, which a) gives the well-behaved bots more useful information in most cases where it's used (because it helps them avoid pages that wouldn't be useful for them) and b) makes well-behaved bot behaviour easier to identify, which in turn makes badly-behaved bot behaviour easier to identify
17:46:53  intentionally ignoring robots.txt is weird, that normally a) makes life worse for the bot as it gets lots of irrelevant pages, b) makes life worse for the site owner as they have to handle lots of irrelevant requests, thus c) increases the incentive of the site owner to block the bot, potentially meaning it gets no results at all
17:46:58  Well, it's... sluggish, but sort of back up.
17:47:53  there is very little advantage to doing that, so whoever has not programmed their bots to respect it either a) doesn't know it exists, in which case the crawler is probably very primitive, or b) is intentionally ignoring it, in which case there is something weird about the operation that might affect the crawler in other ways
17:48:21  looks like either this is miscoded, or my interpreter got something backwards: 25*"!dlroW ,olleH">:#,_@
17:48:57  I've been assuming they're intentionally trying to appear as non-bots, given that the user agents are those of regular browsers, and all the traffic is originating from a big set of (spot-checking a handful) just regular consumer ISPs (so, a botnet?).
17:48:58  is your interpreter filling the stack with infinitely many implicit 0s at the start of the program?
17:49:19  fizzie: botnet is quite possible
17:49:37  have you tried putting some of the ISPs into one of those sites which records known botnets?
17:49:43  err, IPs, not ISPs
17:51:14  I tried one, and it says it's not a bot, but it *is* a VPN, with a "84% - Abusive IP" status, whatever that means.
17:51:19  found the problem: my interpreter has the '_' backwards
17:51:34  So I guess that's another option, VPN providers would presumably want to make their connections look "regular" as well.
17:52:22  oh right, VPN would make a lot of sense for that
17:53:05  I may need to do look into something like limiting old page revisions and diffs to logged-in users only.
17:53:09  But now off to the shoppe.
17:56:06  also had '|' backwards
17:56:25  Lykaina: do you know of Mycology?
17:56:39  no
17:56:45  admittedly it might not be usable if your playfield is smaller than usual
17:56:49  it is a Befunge interpreter testsuite
17:56:59  mostly aimed at Befunge-98 but it does have a Befunge-93 section
17:57:32  my playfield is 80x25 atm
17:57:42  oh, that's the standard size I think
17:58:45  ais523: I appreciate your perspective. I wasn't spitballing, but distilling serious lessons learned from working at large companies with lots of incoming requests. One important concept is Hyrum's Law, which has one phrasing of "clients can send servers any well-typed message".
17:59:15  robots.txt is a political tool with which to pressure e.g. Google to be better-behaved, sure, but it is fundamentally useless against adverse scrapers.
17:59:54  korvo: I have an interesting viewpoint on Hyrum's Law – it's basically "if you change any API endpoint that anyone could potentially be using (even if they aren't supposed to), even in a way that shouldn't theoretically matter, it will probably break something for someone – it's up to you to decide whether you think that breakage is acceptable"
18:00:40  but in many cases, the breakage can be acceptable (or sometimes even intentional)
18:05:03  Lykaina: ah, found the link, https://deewiant.iki.fi/projects/mycology/
18:05:25  ais523: My viewpoint is that Hyrum is a valued former coworker with a valuable insight. I once spent about a quarter-year of my Google employment performing per-request analysis on *internal* RPCs that were overwhelming an internal service.
18:06:10  I am not convinced that these viewpoints contradict each other
18:06:43  Oh, of course not.
18:08:54  fixed this: https://lykaina.sdf.org/esolangs/catline.b93
18:09:47  renaming it to echoline.b93 in a few minutes
18:11:07  there: https://lykaina.sdf.org/esolangs/echoline.b93
18:13:48  korvo: there is a microcontroller manufacturer named Microchip who attempted (maybe still attempts, I haven't checked on them in a while) to document the entirety of the behaviour of their microcontrollers, including behaviour that might seem useless or invariant-breaking; I think this may have been intended for demoscene-like eking out of the entire power of the chips, but it also works quite well as an attempt to avoid Hyrum's Law
18:14:38  (the main thing that had to be left undefined was behaviour in undervoltage situations, but even then the chips had optional undervoltage detection that would turn them off when undervolted and reboot them when they had enough voltage to operate again)
18:15:42  ais523: I wonder if they include the radio topology! I'll let you know if I find the paper; there's a great peer-reviewed writeup of learning an FPGA circuit according to its inputs and outputs, and the learned circuits display radio self-interference which appears to be essential to their correctness.
18:15:43  I do like the approach of "if you were considering relying on undocumented behaviour, we documented it so you can rely on it safely", although of course that approach generally works only because microcontrollers aren't really updated at all
18:16:26  korvo: if that's the paper I'm thinking of, the machine-learning had been set a task that was impossible under normal invariants (distinguishing between two square waves of different frequencies with no other timing source)
18:16:37  There's an entire part of machine learning, "specification gaming", which studies the edge of the specification at its implementation. Closely related to weird machines, as you might guess. I had to learn this stuff at Google just to manage Web traffic.
18:16:51  so it's not surprising that it evolved something invariant-breaking to solve the task
18:17:26  I suspect that if the task were possible with normal digital logic, the evolver would have solved it that way
18:18:12  (that said, I imagine the researchers were expecting it to evolve a timing source, like the "seven NOT gates connected in a cycle" example that I was taught at university)
18:18:40  Only if "normal" also means "simple", "cheap", or some other concrete metric which admits a comparison. Evolution just...doesn't care about "normal", "readable", "debuggable", etc. (I know you know this. But Secunda has to say certain things so that Prima has a path.)
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18:21:47  korvo: well, in this case I would define normal digital logic as a circuit that damps analog effects, in order to prevent analog variations having any long-term effect on the state of the circuit (i.e. if you change the voltage of a wire at a given point in time by, say, 1V, then after waiting sufficiently many seconds all wires will be within, say, 0.1V of where they would have been without the change) – when designing digital circuits engineers normally 
18:21:49  design them like that because it makes them much easier to reason about
18:22:07  and thus an approach that amplifies the analog effects rather than damping them is the "abnormal" approach to circuit design
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18:23:21  intuitively, you would think that evolutionary algorithms might be more likely to find easier-to-reason-about circuits because it would mean that mutations have smaller effects, increasing the chance of converging on nearby solutions rather than diverging; but I don't know whether that's actually the case in practice or not
18:24:43  (the other reason why engineers prefer solutions that damp analog effects and are easy to reason about is that they are more likely to be reusable in other contexts, where the analog situation might be different)
18:27:36  my befunge-93 interpreter does I/O over a serial interface. the REPL interface instead outputs a ton of debug data.
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18:29:42  ais523: The other day I watched a video which credited you with realizing that certain NES games have intra-frame logic which can be provoked with unreasonably fast inputs. The other day I also showed my friends a video with very long clarinets, demonstrating how pitches smoothly become beats at low Hz.
18:30:22  korvo: yes, it was me who realised that, although it was other people who made use of that fact to do interesting things like completing SMB3 in less than a second
18:30:38  I think that if we try to establish a sense of normality or expectation, we inadvertently set up implicit domains (in Hz, in these cases) which leave us blind to the full capabilities of the machine.
18:30:57  it is a fun feeling to reason out the existence of a glitch in a game, without anyoen actually encountering it
18:32:16  I used to play drums. Some drums, despite being *played* at low Hz, will *resonate* at high Hz, and thus they sometimes must be tuned. In extreme cases, like kettledrums/timpani, both frequencies are changing simultaneously.
18:32:52  I think it usually makes engineering sense to not use the full capabilities of the machine, especially if there are any chances the same code might need to be reused on other machines – generally speaking being able to reuse code is an advantage, both for maintainability and for development cost
18:33:12  but it can be fun to do the things that don't make engineering sense, sometimes
18:33:33  I am disappointed at how few NES games beam-race, for example
18:34:17  ever hear of the NES port of Elite?
18:34:21  Sure! But it does raise something of a dilemma. Knowing that weird machines exist, we must either say that the code changes behavior from one machine to another (to prevent weirdness) or that the code is invariant over some abstract machine. But in the latter case, we now have weirdness from the embedding of the abstract machine into each particular target, and the embeddings can't have the same (lack of?) weirdness since we assumed that we're por
18:34:21  ting.
18:35:14  So if we insist that our code is portable then we doom ourselves to an eternal parade of weird implementations of it.
18:37:04  one project that I am slowly not working on (I would like to work on it, but don't have the mental energy) is a greatest-common-divisor of practical programming languages – the aim being that everything it supports maps either directly or via monomorphisation into a very large range of practical programming languages, even those which have limitations
18:37:39  part of the idea being to improve the compiler's idea of what the program is doing, allowing for better optimisations
18:37:52  Or, rephrasing for the initial problem, if we insist that requests to esolangs.org are always adhering to portable standards-compliant HTTP, then we doom ourselves to an eternal parade of weird scrapers who will do everything they can to exploit that portability and compliance.
18:38:10  but the main interest to me is to see which language features I can omit and still have a usable language
18:38:30  e.g. how much of an obstacle to the programmer is it if data can't be moved (in the C++/Rust sense) at all?
18:38:58  korvo: I am not sure what sense of "insist" you mean there?
18:39:23  is it along the lines of "assume that" or along the lines of "reject if not"?
18:39:50  ais523: In the assumptive sense. My entire point is that, when we sit down at the machine, any sort of expectations we set up are going to fundamentally limit our view so that we aren't seeing the machine's full range of behaviors.
18:40:51  korvo: ah right – my view was more along the lines of "we can assume that legitimate connections are probably going to be portable standards-compliant HTTP, so noticing the ones that aren't may be a way to discover the illegitimate ones"
18:41:03  I first learned this via reading Pirsig, a philosopher from the USA who talked about the way that humans make judgments about reality. He once was employed to document a Fortran implementation, and found that folks had the whole monks-and-elephant experience when working with machines.
18:42:14  ais523: Ah, okay, I see. Yeah, I think working at Google ruined me on that; I don't really expect good behavior on port 80 even from well-meaning folks who just want to GET an HTML page. But otherwise I think we're pretty well-aligned.
18:43:30  it is basically impossible to run a mailserver without being fully aware of the sort of nonsense that is likely to come from malicious actors, and occasionally well-meaning actors too
18:44:13  Oh meatballs, operating email is awful. Truly the worst task out there. I've outsourced it for decades and refuse to do it. At this point email is more like a cultural institution than a technical standard.
18:44:25  there is a check that some mailservers use, that any email they receive must be from an IP address whose forward and reverse DNS are consistent with each other – but those servers have discovered that it occasionally somehow rejects legitimate emails they want to receive
18:44:30  Although I did think that JMAP was pretty cool, and I hear that it's gaining traction.
18:44:48  in my opinion, http nonsense is partly why gemini (not google gemini) exists and gopher still exists.
18:45:43  my mailserver does have a check that the reverse DNS is set to something, and will reject emails from IPs with no reverse DNS at all
18:45:54  somehow this manages to block around 50% of spam by itself
18:46:20  my guess is that spammers often don't have much choice about what IP they're using
18:46:31  Lykaina: Yeah, for sure. It's interesting to me to see the differences in design between Gopher, which predated HTTP and was purpose-built to serve university students, vs Gemini's reactionary approach.
18:46:48  (that said, it is probably redundant with "known not to be a mailserver" DNSBL checks, although it does save effort in making the check in the first place)
18:47:44  the other surprising thing is just how much trivially blockable spam there is – the spam that even gets as far as the spam filter is a very small fraction of the total
18:47:53  it is unclear who those spammers are targeting, if anyone
18:52:13  Some of it is just lowest-tier spamming in certain parts of the world where IT culture isn't as developed but email access is common. My personal theory is that DAOs started manifesting in the late 1990s, not the late 2010s, and some spammers are literally Perl scripts running on forgotten compute in a basement with no accounting.
18:53:53  I think it may just be that the cost-benefit equation falls on the side of "the cost is effectively zero, and the benefit is ???"
18:54:00  cost-benefit to the spammers, that is
18:54:53  Youngsters might like looking up the story of Morris' Worm, possibly the first email worm, or the later I Love You Worm, which both were very cheap to execute and relied on "living off the land" (often LOTL) by reusing tools on the infected machines instead of bundling them.
18:56:10  It doesn't have to have any benefit. Evolution isn't really "survival of the fittest". It's more like "survival of whatever fits" or "the better it fits, the likelier it is to survive".
18:56:44  Niches are merely the current metagames.
18:57:32  hmm, I think it's a matter of semantics whether or not the Morris Worm was an email worm, but also think that that's neatly covered by the "possibly"
18:57:32  korvo: i thought evolution was survival of whatever survives to reproduce and reproduces the most
18:58:24  Lykaina: Once we're in an autocatalytic environment, yes. Abiogenesis, the part of chemistry that studies how life evolved, turns out to have a fairly rich theory *before* the development of autocatalytic DNA, the so-called "RNA World".
18:58:51  This isn't just hypothesis, BTW; we just found "obelisks", RNA fragments that appear to have some proto-life behaviors, in humans. By accident, mostly, by analyzing existing data.
18:59:18  cool
18:59:45  Lykaina: You know how, when we implement genetic algorithms, we have all of those hyperparameters that control rates of reproduction and etc.? There's evolution with fixed hyperparameters, and evolution where the hyperparameters also evolve.
19:01:26  So "survives to reproduce" might actually be "survives longer than some hyperparameter", which might actually be "survives longer than some statistic derived from all existing survivors", which allows for meta.
19:02:59  ais523: Huh, that's an interesting quibble. I suppose that we call it a "worm" as a definition rather than a description?
19:05:00  korvo: oh, I was quibbling over the "email" part – it attacked sendmail, but IIRC not in a way that involved actually sending email
19:06:04  ais523: Oh, that's fair. And is sendmail really even email? Like, I'm not even joking: was what people did before IMAP and POP3 actually email, or a sort of proto-email that looked more like remote-shell?
19:07:22  I still think it's interesting, although I could agree that it's not directly making the point as well as I Love You.
19:09:40  I think that at the time, sending email happened in a way that's recognisable even nowadays, but receiving email didn't (it functioned more like "people are expected to have a shell account directly on the mailserver and read their email like that")
19:12:58  For email, I have my own server only for receiving, but the ISP's server is used for sending, and I had not had a problem with that so far, as far as I can tell. I do not have a matching forward and reverse DNS, and there are other reasons also why it might not match
19:18:34  the interpreter crashed while running the 'p' command when running the befunge-93 part of mycology
19:20:24  'p' can be a hard command to get right, so that seems like a plausible sort of error
19:21:12  How can I add comments to GitHub issues, now? They changed something and now it is not working, although I could get the existing comments to be displayed, I could not add a new one. Will the API have to be used for this purpose, now? (I have got the API to work before, at least to create a new repository, so it might still work, but then a separate program must be used for display or adding new comments.)
19:21:28  (Also, I get a 502 error when accessing esolang wiki, now)
19:25:25  the only thing that mycology said that wasn't good this time is: UNDEF: edge # skips column 80
19:26:58  it continued with another GOOD after
19:27:10  Lykaina: UNDEF means that the specification has multiple reasonable interpretations
19:27:19  " Pursue work-life balance." => out of the groceries and esolangs, which one is work?
19:27:30  if you get UNDEF rather than BAD it means that you are following a reasonable interpretation of the specification, but it is not the only reasonable interpretation of the specification
19:27:55  there is no way to get a GOOD in such cases, so don't worry about it as long as there is no BAD
19:28:03  i think it works
19:29:35  Lykaina: https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Hello_world/Text#Befunge or https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Hello_world/Newbie#Befunge
19:31:11  b_jonas: I've had to make some groceries-or-esolangs decisions semi-recently, I considered the groceries as work
19:31:29  fortunately there is usually enough time for boht
19:34:06  b_jonas: Sysadmin responsibilities are labor, and oftentimes toil as well. It's okay to put off labor sometimes.
19:39:26  well, one of the main reasons to work is to put food on the table – the more difficult part of that is obtaining the money to buy groceries with, but actually buying the groceries is also part of that
19:39:33  my main conclusion is that, in this case, both are work
19:52:13  Ah, sure. I was raised with that sort of Biblical hate, and I try not to bring it into communities, particularly communities which aren't moving around any money.
20:01:07  " limiting old page revisions and diffs to logged-in users only." => if you do that, please put an exception for the Befunge page so that if that page is maliciously changed people can still find out how to pass the captcha
20:09:28  korvo: that must be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk_6NrDsiHM
20:11:48  b_jonas: Yep. Guess it's going around.
20:14:23  re: the very low clarinet note, I've done something similar myself using an oscillator that could be set to very low frequencies and a speaker, although it's less fun than doing it with an actual wind instrument
20:36:13  It's still pegged at 100% CPU, and most requests are timing out at 60s. I wonder if there's something more going on than just the number of diff requests.
20:37:45  I see a lot of references to the Esolang:Introduce_yourself and Esolang:Sandbox pages, which are pretty gigantic (well, at least for some old versions) and probably the most expensive single requests there are.
20:39:04  Maybe I'll try quickly blocking URLs that involve diffing two versions of those two pages, since it seems unlikely anyone would _really_ need to do that particular thing.
20:44:25  I think I have diffed Introduce Yourself, but it's true that I don't really need it, I could download the source codes and diff locally
20:48:26  It's also possible there's something more wrong going on, since there isn't *that* much traffic that it should generally be quite this overloaded.
20:49:31   Maybe I'll try quickly blocking URLs that involve diffing two versions of those two pages, since it seems unlikely anyone would _really_ need to do that particular thing. ← those are actually some of the pages I diff most often, precisely because they're so large – it's helpful to get an idea of just what changed, when someone edits them
20:49:59  but I can find a workaround if needed
20:50:39  Well, if the block seems to help, I can try to fine-tune it to be for logged-out users only.
20:55:18  [[How dare you fuck the brain]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151085&oldid=150769 * Ractangle * (+240) /* computational class */
20:57:51  if the wiki becomes healthy enough to actually perform admin actions, I could try revision-hiding the old revisions to prevent them being diffed
20:58:03  [[Stackfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151086&oldid=151071 * Calculus is fun * (+2027) /* Interpreter */
20:58:06  (Though I'm not 100% sure how to manage that. I don't think nginx is aware if someone's logged-in or not, unless it's implied by cookies in an easy-to-parse way. MediaWiki itself is, of course, but I don't know if it has settings on that level, I suspect it's all grouped under the "read" right.)
20:58:42  Judging from those edits, it may be at least somewhat working again.
20:59:19  [[User:Ractangle/Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151087&oldid=150898 * Ractangle * (-25) /* Stuff to continue */  I ain't putting this into the list of done esolangs nor will i try to make the syntax better
20:59:34  [[Special:Log/delete]] revision  * Ais523 *  Ais523 changed visibility of 245 revisions on page [[Esolang:Sandbox]]: content hidden: hide page content to prevent crawlers diffing it, placing immense load on the server
21:00:00  [[Special:Log/delete]] revision  * Ais523 *  Ais523 changed visibility of 250 revisions on page [[Esolang:Sandbox]]: content hidden: hide page content to prevent crawlers diffing it, placing immense load on the server
21:00:07 -!- chomwitt has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:00:14  I hope that doesn't spark the sandbox wars again. :/
21:01:15  I was worried about that too, but I'm adding a clear reason for hiding
21:01:39  [[Special:Log/delete]] revision  * Ais523 *  Ais523 changed visibility of 249 revisions on page [[Esolang:Sandbox]]: content hidden: hide page content to prevent crawlers diffing it, placing immense load on the server
21:01:45  [[Stackfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151088&oldid=151086 * Calculus is fun * (+2) Fixed A+B example
21:02:40  [[Special:Log/delete]] revision  * Ais523 *  Ais523 changed visibility of 250 revisions on page [[Esolang:Sandbox]]: content hidden: hide page content to prevent crawlers diffing it, placing immense load on the server
21:03:01  [[Special:Log/delete]] revision  * Ais523 *  Ais523 changed visibility of 192 revisions on page [[Esolang:Sandbox]]: content hidden: hide page content to prevent crawlers diffing it, placing immense load on the server
21:03:56  FTR, my quick little fix was to start returning a 503 for anything where the CGI params match /diff=.*title=Esolang:(?:Sandbox|Introduce_yourself)/ so if you happen to run across that, an almost-trivial probable workaround will be to just reorder the `title=` parameter to come before the `diff=` one in the URL.
21:04:02  [[Special:Log/delete]] revision  * Ais523 *  Ais523 changed visibility of 241 revisions on page [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]: content hidden: hide page content to prevent crawlers diffing it, placing immense load on the server
21:04:16  [[Special:Log/delete]] revision  * Ais523 *  Ais523 changed visibility of 250 revisions on page [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]: content hidden: hide page content to prevent crawlers diffing it, placing immense load on the server
21:04:32  [[Special:Log/delete]] revision  * Ais523 *  Ais523 changed visibility of 250 revisions on page [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]: content hidden: hide page content to prevent crawlers diffing it, placing immense load on the server
21:04:45  [[Special:Log/delete]] revision  * Ais523 *  Ais523 changed visibility of 250 revisions on page [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]: content hidden: hide page content to prevent crawlers diffing it, placing immense load on the server
21:05:00  [[Special:Log/delete]] revision  * Ais523 *  Ais523 changed visibility of 250 revisions on page [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]: content hidden: hide page content to prevent crawlers diffing it, placing immense load on the server
21:05:22  [[Special:Log/delete]] revision  * Ais523 *  Ais523 changed visibility of 250 revisions on page [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]: content hidden: hide page content to prevent crawlers diffing it, placing immense load on the server
21:05:36  [[Special:Log/delete]] revision  * Ais523 *  Ais523 changed visibility of 250 revisions on page [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]: content hidden: hide page content to prevent crawlers diffing it, placing immense load on the server
21:05:50  [[Special:Log/delete]] revision  * Ais523 *  Ais523 changed visibility of 250 revisions on page [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]: content hidden: hide page content to prevent crawlers diffing it, placing immense load on the server
21:06:00  [[Stackfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151089&oldid=151088 * Ractangle * (-161) /* Interpreter */  minified the python interpreter
21:06:04  [[Special:Log/delete]] revision  * Ais523 *  Ais523 changed visibility of 250 revisions on page [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]: content hidden: hide page content to prevent crawlers diffing it, placing immense load on the server
21:06:21  [[Special:Log/delete]] revision  * Ais523 *  Ais523 changed visibility of 250 revisions on page [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]: content hidden: hide page content to prevent crawlers diffing it, placing immense load on the server
21:06:37  [[Special:Log/delete]] revision  * Ais523 *  Ais523 changed visibility of 250 revisions on page [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]: content hidden: hide page content to prevent crawlers diffing it, placing immense load on the server
21:07:14  [[Special:Log/delete]] revision  * Ais523 *  Ais523 changed visibility of 76 revisions on page [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]: content hidden: hide page content to prevent crawlers diffing it, placing immense load on the server
21:07:57  the quick fix might not be needed after all those revision hides – MediaWiki will reject an attempt to diff if either revision is hidden
21:08:32  but it'll probably be a faster way to reject the requests
21:09:05  that said, the hides also cause the diff buttons to be unlinked, so this may cause the crawler to stop even attempting the requests
21:10:11  I'll comment it out and see if it breaks again.
21:11:23  [[Esolang talk:Community portal]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151090&oldid=145305 * Ais523 * (+433) /* 429 Too Many Requests */ an update
21:11:25  Yep, now the URL I was using for testing returns: "You cannot view this diff because one of the revisions has been deleted."
21:13:04  [[User:Ractangle/Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151091&oldid=151087 * Ractangle * (+24) /* Yayimhere/4kOWO */
21:13:57  fizzie: while logged out, I suppose? (you're an admin, I think admins can diff even through the sort of revision hide I used)
21:16:58  Yeah, I was just curl'ing one of the URLs in the logs.
21:19:00  [[User:Blashyrkh/A+B-brainfuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151092&oldid=150994 * Blashyrkh * (-352) Shortened by 6 bytes (316 bytes in stripped form)
21:19:14  [[User:Blashyrkh]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151093&oldid=150998 * Blashyrkh * (+0) 
21:20:48  [[A+B Problem/brainfuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151094&oldid=151016 * Blashyrkh * (-6) /* Arbitrary integers with reasonably low memory consumption (by User:Blashyrkh) */ Shortened by 6 bytes
21:31:20  [[User:Ractangle/Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151095&oldid=151091 * Ractangle * (-15) /* Stuff to continue */
21:32:36  [[User:Ractangle]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151096&oldid=150900 * Ractangle * (+57) /* Esolangs */
21:35:03  fizzie: if the crawlers switch to a different page, you can either hide the history yourself, or let me know so that I can do it
21:35:23  [[MarkupL]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151097&oldid=150258 * Ractangle * (-61) /* Hello, world! */  Who needs paragraphs
21:36:55  [[Special:Log/move]] move  * Ractangle *  moved [[BrainofGolf]] to [[Blainbuk]]
21:37:35  [[Blainbuk]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151100&oldid=151098 * Ractangle * (-15) 
21:38:03  [[User:Ractangle]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151101&oldid=151096 * Ractangle * (-3) /* Esolangs */
21:42:45  [[Blainbuk]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151102&oldid=151100 * Ractangle * (-237) /* Commands */
21:43:06  [[Blainbuk]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151103&oldid=151102 * Ractangle * (-2) /* Hello, world! */
21:43:21  [[User:Lykaina]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151104&oldid=107658 * Lykaina * (+41) 
21:45:35  [[Fungeball]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151105&oldid=107660 * Lykaina * (+62) 
22:00:50  [[Stackfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151106&oldid=151089 * Calculus is fun * (+130) Added hello world
22:33:01  i think my befunge-93 interpreter now works
22:33:37  i mean, the CPython version
22:40:06 * Lykaina makes hot pockets for everyone to celebrate...
22:45:30  ooh, what are they filled with?
22:46:40  trefunge instructions I guess
22:47:01  cheese pizza
22:48:08  good. but mix in a few trefunge arrows and trampolines too
22:52:25 * Lykaina considers changing the name of the program file to 'v'.
22:54:16  that way, a befunge file can self-execute if it starts with: #!v
23:10:39  i wonder if that would actually work
23:27:07  Lykaina: you could give it a longer name that starts with v at least
23:28:10  [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (H-M)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151107&oldid=150770 * Calculus is fun * (+47) /* MoreMathRPN */
23:30:21  (or of course you could use a befunge variant that skips the first line)
23:32:34  [[Factorial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151108&oldid=150575 * Calculus is fun * (+108) /* MoreMathRPN*/
23:40:16  I think there might even be "Befunge interpreter whose name starts with 'v'" on the list of ideas
23:40:19  at least, I know I've seen that before
23:42:12  [[Factorial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151109&oldid=151108 * Calculus is fun * (+47) /* FALSE */
23:42:35  [[Factorial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151110&oldid=151109 * Calculus is fun * (+2) /* FALSE */
23:42:50  [[Factorial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151111&oldid=151110 * Calculus is fun * (+2) /* MoreMathRPN */
23:45:03  didn't work
23:45:38  if only / was a mirror instruction that could turn your instruction pointer up you could just use that
23:50:57  >~:,25*-#v_@
23:50:58  ^        <  
23:55:21  how do i put that on one line?
23:59:06  does unefunge even have loops?