> 1739491549 153924 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151895&oldid=151894 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+67) 10
> 1739492195 157428 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151896&oldid=151895 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+145) 10
< 1739493407 830304 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1739493543 153186 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151897&oldid=151545 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+48) 10/* My esolangs */
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> 1739493755 117968 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/List of the users that is also in conwaylife.com14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151898&oldid=151020 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-515) 10Blanked the page
> 1739497645 579857 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151899&oldid=151883 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+0) 10Fixed account
> 1739497808 340925 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151900&oldid=151899 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+22) 10
> 1739498008 922934 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/Draft14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151901&oldid=149690 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-1580) 10stepmania-inspired language concept
> 1739498391 632179 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/PSTF Again 14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151902 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+5994) 10Created page with "1. [[Translated ZhongWen/islptng Zwei|]]Special:Contributions/PrySigneToFry|<span style='font-family:Unifont;color:red;'>You computer has a severe errL$D3h$&% ?' L$H3h(*) ?+ L$L3h,.- ?/ L$P3h021 ?3 ?6$T3h45 ?7 ?:$X3h89 ?; ?p<=? ? F  ?~#?~nD
> 1739498433 476653 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/Mihai Again Chapter XI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151903&oldid=151857 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+43) 10
> 1739498652 453751 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151904&oldid=151896 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+372) 10
> 1739498712 900791 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151905&oldid=151904 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+35) 10
> 1739498821 549457 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151906&oldid=151551 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+596) 10/*  */
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> 1739499382 416729 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151907&oldid=151795 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-1895) 10Blanked the page
> 1739499730 510114 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Game:Nonsense14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151908 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+1927) 10Created page with "I personally think that spaghetti should be mixed with #42 concrete, because the length of screws can easily affect the excavator's torque. When you strike it in, it will instantly produce a large amount of high-energy proteins, known as UFO
> 1739499831 769099 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/islptng Zwei14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151909&oldid=151856 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-1412) 10
> 1739501626 515685 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07List of ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151910&oldid=150727 5* 03Gilbert189 5* (+153) 10/* Partially Silly Ideas */
> 1739502497 937589 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151911&oldid=151064 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+26) 10/* anything else */
> 1739502736 54021 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151912&oldid=151906 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+849) 10
> 1739503144 721390 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/PSTF Again 14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151913&oldid=151902 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+10) 10
> 1739503285 146678 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151914&oldid=151884 5* 03H33T33 5* (+5) 10
> 1739505584 543005 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yunasha Hotora14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151915 5* 03Yunasha Hotora 5* (+145) 10Created page with "Yunash Hotor Ushiyra / Atash Newurashka  16 | 26 Feb 2008  ADHD Stuff: - Conlang - Esolang - Worldbuilding - Architecture - Music - Art"
> 1739505893 798688 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nya~*kwrgsfish+-HQ9`:'"rbtAzxdi814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151916&oldid=151842 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+90) 10
> 1739505905 415869 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yunasha Hotora14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151917&oldid=151915 5* 03Yunasha Hotora 5* (+60) 10
> 1739505968 852210 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yunasha Hotora14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151918&oldid=151917 5* 03Yunasha Hotora 5* (+21) 10
> 1739506011 244011 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151919&oldid=151900 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+28) 10
> 1739506483 168596 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yunasha Hotora/Sandbox14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151920 5* 03Yunasha Hotora 5* (+301) 10Created page with "=Header i guess=  <pre> code (code=code; code++){     code.Code(code["code"]);     code{[code, code - code] -> (         code[code] = code;         code (code == code) {code | code};     )}; } </pre>  {| ! Header 1 !! Header 2 |- | Row 1, Cell 
> 1739506705 245783 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yunasha Hotora/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151921&oldid=151920 5* 03Yunasha Hotora 5* (+9) 10
> 1739506737 760171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151922&oldid=151914 5* 03H33T33 5* (+0) 10
> 1739506797 695057 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151923&oldid=151922 5* 03H33T33 5* (+15) 10
> 1739506891 243824 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yunasha Hotora/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151924&oldid=151921 5* 03Yunasha Hotora 5* (+101) 10
> 1739507025 107697 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151925&oldid=151923 5* 03H33T33 5* (-59) 10
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> 1739507853 25895 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tri-Tru-Eso14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151926 5* 03Yunasha Hotora 5* (+291) 10Created page with "{{Stub}} ''Not to be confused with [[Tri]].''  Tri-Tru-Eso is an esolang created by [[User:Yunasha_Hotora]]. Originaly uploaded to [https://github.com/Yunasha/tri-tru-eso Github] at July, 2024.  [[Category:2025]]  =External Links= * [https://github.com/Yunasha
> 1739509517 958993 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ToArrowScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151927&oldid=151865 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+227) 10/* Examples */
> 1739509593 167561 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ToArrowScript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151928&oldid=151927 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+9) 10/* Calculate 5! */
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< 1739511355 992647 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I'm arguably being a bit snobbish and mincing words... all I can think of is the cooking idiom (an idea has been simmering for a while). And I'd prefer "study" over "research" if it includes learning basics.
< 1739511477 81292 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I really mind the total absence of even a single example though, because that would make the details of the code much easier to grasp. The general gist of it is... kind of boring I think. More or less: Meta programming in a language that has an eval builtin.
< 1739511616 271972 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Why do the struct types have to be the same by token by token? I should think that using different tokens should sometimes be acceptable, e.g. if the number of elements in an array is written as 1+1 or as 2 then it should be considered to match, isn't it? (Debugging information might be different maybe (I don't know), but that should not affect the execution of the program.)
< 1739511727 443746 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Oh, I think it's a completely reasonable complaint about English. It had occurred to me that e.g. Lojban has {ru'inai}, a time tense which indicates gaps, pauses, discontinuities. It's a good match for projects which are completed at a rate of weekends/year.
< 1739511741 92647 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :C wants to give compiler writers maximal freedom... so if they want to align each member at a 16 byte boundary, that's fair game.
< 1739511801 294781 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: the "snobbish" part alludes to having been in academia which comes with a fairly narrow idea of "research". The use of the word has become quite a bit wider to the point where reading a news article is included :P
< 1739511855 17918 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Aha.
< 1739511923 715622 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So, I agree that it's boring, but I think metaprogramming is still quite cool in general. What bores me about SectorLisp is that its size limitations ensure that it can't have any interesting codegen. There's no magic wand that will fit all of the complexity of 6502, let alone any of its x86 children, into a single sector.
< 1739511971 844313 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it's valuable to be small, but also valuable to use all of the different parts of the CPU. If a compiler wants to omit part of an ISA, then I think it ought to show that some other part of the ISA dominates it.
< 1739512028 886637 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also am not super-thrilled about Lisp semantics, but that's asking for the argument clinic.
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< 1739512164 661689 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I guess I'm too affected by the fancy word soup used to advertise the mcr* thing. (I haven't looked at sectorlisp, which may be a mistake in that it sounds like a more fleshed out thing)
< 1739512219 651026 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :SectorLisp is literally what it says on the tin: a sector-sized Lisp-like interactive environment. It's a very cool tech demo but not a serious platform for building other stuff.
< 1739512239 534586 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's fine, especially for here.
< 1739512291 956680 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Young me once wrote an exponential time sorting routine unironically (in a code golfing context)
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> 1739513039 946385 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tri-Tru-Eso14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151929&oldid=151926 5* 03Yunasha Hotora 5* (+2537) 10
< 1739513323 340963 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, do I still remember? I think it went like this: https://paste.debian.net/1349933/
< 1739513840 575040 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had to look up `scas`. Is this a bubble sort?
< 1739513925 866101 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :No, it's worse.
< 1739514246 422298 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It carries an extra element and starts swapping that almost blindly with the array elements one by one, as long as the extra element (after the swap) is the largest of all the array elements.  So when sorting 1 2 3 [255], you swap with the 1, 255 2 3 [1], that's out of order; you start over. Swap again, 1 2 3 [255], and again, 1 255 3 [2], that's out of order, start over. A swap, a restart, 3...
< 1739514252 381651 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :...swaps, a restart, 1 swap, a restart, 2 swaps, a restart, and 3 more swaps and you're done.
< 1739514368 342417 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Interesting. I guess that makes it a sort of slow sort. Not literally related to slowsort, which is pessimal quicksort, but more like a pessimal bubble sort.
< 1739514462 749929 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :If my analysis back then is correct it's Theta(2^n) worst case (easy to verify), Theta(2^n/n) average case and Theta(n^2) worst case if all sorted elements are distinct. You only get down further with equal elements. I suspect that also means it's O(n^256) or maybe O(n^255) if you use it on bytes.
< 1739514503 765537 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :A simplexity theorist (somebody who tries to waste time/space) would be proud.
< 1739514506 124631 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway. It's really designed around `scasb` being a one-byte instruction at the time.
< 1739514542 798093 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And, I can't stress this enough, it's useless.
< 1739514578 499164 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Except for entertainment purposes of course :)
< 1739514625 685224 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's less artificial than bogosort :)
< 1739514665 961088 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Did I say "worst case" twice... meh.
< 1739514668 134918 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, sure. Pessimal algorithms are very natural. Who hasn't seen a warehouse employee performing a slow search, checking every place where something isn't?
< 1739514686 522061 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The best case is starting with a reverse sorted array.
< 1739514721 722072 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Ah the Sherlock Holmes method.
< 1739514764 281486 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Probably the most objectionable part of that franchise... the idea that you could actually exhaust all possible explanations for a phenomenon.)
< 1739514847 24850 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :IIRC slowsort guarantees Omega(n^3) in the "best" case. It does this via the dual of divide-and-conquer, which IIRC is called multiply-and-give-up; it sets up a very large number of recursive calls regardless of whether the input array is sorted.
< 1739515202 215277 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: The thing that this does that isn't bubble-sort like is this... you can think of the extra element at sitting in the gap between the last seen array element and the next one. Then the combination of xchg and scasb does nothing to the list (the next array element becomes the extra element and vice versa, but then the extra element moves to the right). In this view the update happens on...
< 1739515208 205800 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :...restarts, when all the initial array elements are moved to the right as the extra element is moved to the very front.
< 1739515217 655881 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :at sitting -> as sitting
< 1739515291 508424 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hm. `scasb` isn't `rep scasb`, is it? `loop` is decrementing, so the outer loop should be leaving sorted elements at the end...
< 1739515296 886559 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The inspiration certainly came from bubble sort though.
> 1739515304 923614 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tri-Tru-Eso14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151930&oldid=151929 5* 03Yunasha Hotora 5* (+1503) 10
< 1739515306 396312 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The more I look at this, the worse it gets. I think I'm going to have dreams about this.
< 1739515315 804916 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe I 
< 1739515337 165302 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...Maybe I should type slower and let SSH catch up.
< 1739515367 949283 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: `scasb` is a single iteration of what `rep scasb` does. It still increments the di register, but the `rep` prefix is what decrements the counter, which in this code is done by `loop` instead.
< 1739515388 601995 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :where counter = cx register
< 1739515408 158793 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :x86 is weird.
< 1739515418 902634 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(other people say CISC ;-) )
< 1739515506 602460 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But this was the assembly language that I grew up with so I'm used to this particular weirdness. It's cozy, up to a point. I never really got into all the vector instructions, and those are growing more crazy with each generation.
< 1739515693 678733 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have an intuition for like `rep stosb` but I've never had to generalize it. First and last time I wrote for this sort of arch was undergrad.
< 1739515770 2551 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm kind of seeing it. Thanks for explaining.
> 1739515956 598897 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tri-Tru-Eso14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151931&oldid=151930 5* 03Yunasha Hotora 5* (+3) 10
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< 1739520198 609509 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
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< 1739520637 207348 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: I think the idea of the people who wrote the standard is that if you want to use the definition in multiple compilation units then you'll put it into a header file that you #include in both compilation units, to avoid stupid mistakes where you change the definition in one place but not the other, and so token by token match isn't hard. 
> 1739520734 104801 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nya~*kwrgsfish+-HQ9`:'"rbtAzxdi814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151932&oldid=151916 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+140) 10
> 1739520785 663912 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nya~*kwrgsfish+-HQ9`:'"rbtAzxdi814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151933&oldid=151932 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+98) 10
< 1739520785 779729 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also this applies to a struct/class/union definition, it does not apply to a typedef or a type synonym defined by using, nor to importing a symbol to another namespace with using, those type aliases and symbol aliases are still compilation unit local and don't need to match at all 
< 1739521275 560735 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok so this mcr(){ while read -r i; do eval "$( printf "%s" "$i" | awk "$1" ; )" ; done ; } ; is mcr
< 1739521308 225372 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :mcr allows you to change the syntax of your terminal at will if it is a posix terminal
< 1739521365 59084 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the syntax is at your terminal prompt you type: mcr 'some_awk_program'
< 1739521437 906324 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: so this sorts only arrays of bytes? because that makes it useless not only because of the slowness but because you ... oh wait, I can't say that, I just sorted the bytes of tens of thousands of words to find anagrams, never mind then
< 1739521458 261174 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so an implementation of gnu cat is: mcr '{print $0}'
< 1739521545 151740 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the idea is mcr is not safe enough to use in a production environment but mcr4 is  being developed to be safer for those systems
< 1739521578 817369 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :mcr likely cannot be used in production becuase of its use of eval
< 1739521597 664007 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Well it's easy to adjust this to sort larger words, as long as there's a scas variant for it. So... I don't think that's the main issue :)
< 1739521635 201583 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the context in which I wrote this was asking to sort bytes
< 1739521675 559557 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, that's better then
< 1739521698 442069 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: well you claim this is a macro system, so an example that does some actual macro expansion would go a long way to support that claim and also force you to do something at least moderately nontrivial with mcr
< 1739521724 758511 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah so that example of gnu cat is an example let me show you another example
< 1739521750 998347 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: and I think I added enough disclaimers about lack of usefulness above :)
< 1739521886 34446 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: and I can't even think of a place other than this channel where I would bring this, hmm, creation up at all
< 1739521904 377162 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :eh my example I was thinking of tunred out to be a harder macro than I thought
< 1739521918 559075 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :let me show you some simple postfix but this isnt going to be a useful macro
< 1739521952 552831 :moony4!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony JOIN #esolangs moony :Kaylie! (she/her)
< 1739521955 16626 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I used a custom macro system to preprocess my source code into C source code at one point. The custom macro system used a simple sed script to preprocess my source code into an intermediate ed script, such that everything except specially marked ed directives were just appended to the output, and then I ran that intermediate code through ed to get the C source code. Then in my source file I had 
< 1739521961 277475 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :directives to put some bookmarks to mark a region, copy that region to another place, and do some string substitution on the copied version of the lines, or something like that. Fortunately I probably don't have a copy of that one anymore, so it's hard to definitely prove that this was a stupid way to write that code and that it wouldn't have been trivial to just write a C program the normal way.
< 1739521970 742088 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :mcr '{if(substr($0,1,1)=="+"){print ($2 + $3)}else{print}'
< 1739521971 774830 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: yeah
< 1739521982 437763 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so this macro should implemnet a very basic not so useful prefix addition in bash
< 1739522065 968571 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1739522066 68841 :moony4!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony NICK :moony
< 1739522174 781337 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :mcr '{if(substr($0,length($0),1)=="+"){print ($(NF - 2) - $(NF - 1))}else{print}}'
< 1739522190 570137 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :if this doesnt work I think length($0) must be changed to length($0)-1
< 1739522208 205793 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :this should implement a very crued postfix addition in the shell
< 1739522230 624697 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :don't you want to work with $1 instead
< 1739522245 498320 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm?
< 1739522271 684037 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` awk '{if($1=="+"){print ($2 + $3)}else{print}}' <<<"+ 1 2"
< 1739522273 389079 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :3
< 1739522276 754917 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :$1 is not mcr
< 1739522317 446327 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :how cat being used
< 1739522319 527352 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :show
< 1739522394 38431 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh thats similar to how mcr works
< 1739522458 235263 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :```mcr(){ while read -r i; do eval "$( printf "%s" "$i" | awk "$1" ; )" ; done ; } ; mcr '{print $0}'; fosdijfodsjfi
< 1739522459 225212 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​``mcr(){? No such file or directory
< 1739522473 229756 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :mcr doesnt work on the bot
< 1739522510 254688 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder if I should recreate that sed|ed abomination some day, but I can't really think of an esoteric application where I'd want to make repeating but modified text that way, I don't want to do it in a serious non-esoteric context, and if I want such repetition in an esoteric way I have several other choices of preprocessor now.
< 1739522533 380849 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But maybe I'll want to generate some repetitive SVG file where the repetition can't just be handled with symbol elements
< 1739522547 36468 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or repetitive html or something
< 1739522555 947297 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: sometimes, whitespace matters
< 1739522585 293805 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :```echo "mcr(){ while read -r i; do eval \"\$( printf \"%s\" \"\$i\" | awk \"\$1\" ; )\" ; done ; } ; mcr '{print \$0}'; fosdijfodsjfi" | sh
< 1739522586 257365 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​``echo? No such file or directory
< 1739522605 488549 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :indeed
< 1739522632 313511 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :do you have a bash bot?
< 1739522658 219741 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` echo $SHELL
< 1739522659 256740 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​/bin/sh
< 1739522666 364043 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm
< 1739522669 460035 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` echo $BASH
< 1739522670 349206 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​/bin/bash
< 1739522672 18485 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` echo $BASH_VERSION
< 1739522672 829190 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :5.0.3(1)-release
< 1739522694 418859 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` help [[
< 1739522695 273268 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​[[ ... ]]: [[ expression ]] \     Execute conditional command. \      \     Returns a status of 0 or 1 depending on the evaluation of the conditional \     expression EXPRESSION.  Expressions are composed of the same primaries used \     by the `test' builtin, and may be combined using the following operators: \      \       ( EXPRESSION )	Returns the value of EXPRESSION \       ! EXPRESSION		True if EXPRESSION is false; else false \       EXPR1 && EXPR
< 1739522701 290976 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :^ it is bash, don't worry
< 1739522707 421335 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it said for me that echo was not found
< 1739522712 782439 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :```echo hello
< 1739522714 872 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​``echo? No such file or directory
< 1739522722 882375 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes because you are not adding the essential space
< 1739522740 994134 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` echo "mcr(){ while read -r i; do eval \"\$( printf \"%s\" \"\$i\" | awk \"\$1\" ; )\" ; done ; } ; mcr '{print \$0}'; fosdijfodsjfi" | sh
< 1739522742 25204 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :sh: 1: fosdijfodsjfi: not found
< 1739522750 120904 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: there is some documentation at https://esolangs.org/wiki/HackEso though there's a lot missing too
< 1739522787 748485 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh... that's not even useful there, I never bothered to document the commands ` and ``, probably because I hate their nooodl
< 1739522809 61172 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :```echo "mcr(){ while read -r i; do eval \"\$( printf \"%s\" \"\$i\" | awk \"\$1\" ; )\" ; done ; } ; \nmcr '{print \$0}';\nfosdijfodsjfi" | sh
< 1739522809 921006 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​``echo? No such file or directory
< 1739522822 21930 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` echo "mcr(){ while read -r i; do eval \"\$( printf \"%s\" \"\$i\" | awk \"\$1\" ; )\" ; done ; } ; \nmcr '{print \$0}';\nfosdijfodsjfi" | sh
< 1739522823 77016 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :sh: 1: nmcr: not found \ sh: 1: nfosdijfodsjfi: not found
< 1739522841 101451 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah
< 1739522860 332984 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the whole echo "" | shell part isn't needed either
< 1739522869 393480 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :err sh, not shell
< 1739522885 812738 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` echo "mcr(){ while read -r i; do eval \"\$( printf \"%s\" \"\$i\" | awk \"\$1\" ; )\" ; done ; } ; \nmcr '{print \"echo \" \$0}';\nfosdijfodsjfi" | sh
< 1739522888 239902 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :sh: 1: nmcr: not found \ sh: 1: nfosdijfodsjfi: not found
< 1739522923 678319 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is why I dont use these bots is it always takes me 20 tries to get a command right
< 1739522981 344454 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: taking 20 tries to get the command right is fine, and if it bothers you you can use HackEso in a private message while you're testing the commands
< 1739523036 878345 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you would please open a posix terminal
< 1739523041 481381 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(small channel rules)
< 1739523048 994989 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :then plasee type mcr(){ while read -r i; do eval "$( printf "%s" "$i" | awk "$1" ; )" ; done ; } ; 
< 1739523052 150338 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :then please press return
< 1739523091 69256 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :then pleasee type mcr '{if(substr($0,1,1)=="+"){print ($2 + $3)}else{print}'
< 1739523134 253250 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :er maybe mcr '{if(substr($0,1,1)=="+"){print "echo " ($2 + $3)}else{print}'
< 1739523187 427125 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, and I guess besides the sed|ed abomination I invented buubot3 macros which lets you use perl to preprocess buubot commands, though at least the original buubot3 (but not perlbot) also had a ruby interpreter and a few more that you could technically use instead of perl
< 1739523201 27305 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I guess I invented at least three terrible preprocessors
< 1739523259 95044 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :its a skill issue for me I am not ane xpert at writing macros
< 1739523275 14791 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I only learned awk two weeks ago
< 1739523295 320140 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :do you understand how my macro ssytem works?
< 1739523366 265939 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1739523495 298047 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: you should probably write at least some short documentation with examples of usage, such as to that github repo or the esowiki, that would increase the chances that users will look at it and try to understand
< 1739523552 94893 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :its really not such a complex system
< 1739523560 555237 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you needn't make it work in HackEso in particular if you don't want to, just write examples somewhere else
< 1739523570 307399 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wrote a kind of a doc here https://github.com/memesmith0/mcr
< 1739523611 251152 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :mcr works just like a REPL but read eval print loop only there is a macro level inbetween read and eval. so it is read macro eval print loop
< 1739523671 84266 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you basically have  mcr "foo"  =  awk "foo" | sh  except that the latter is more versatile beause it can accumulate state from one line of input to the next
< 1739523722 384541 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :piping it into sh you lose so much
< 1739523728 585774 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :thats now mcr4 works is it pipes into sh
< 1739523780 53375 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :you cant open vim inside of a macro if you pipe into sh
< 1739523851 588417 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :echo 'vim < /dev/stderr' | sh
< 1739523872 628199 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :abusive? sure. but it works.
< 1739523918 50941 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow i've got to add that to mcr4!
< 1739523985 693311 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :You can accumulate state in the shell instead I suppose. And if it ends up in environment variables it can be accessed in awk (awkwardly).
< 1739524049 46267 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess one application I could try with sed|ed is to write a serializer and deserializer where the source code is expanded to a function that reads each field of a structure and a function that writes each field of a structure. though that's not too hard to do with the C preprocessor either.
< 1739524145 124850 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: write a documentation with multiple simple examples of how you could use the preprocessor. that's my recommendation.
< 1739524275 709286 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: you said that -1 would be a bad sentinel value for the float to signed overflow, but I realized that INT_MIN would be an even slightly worse sentinel value for float to unsigned conversion overflow
< 1739524302 878923 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :mcr(){ while read -r i; do printf "%s" "$i" | awk "$1" | sh < /dev/stderr ; done ; } ;
< 1739524304 517042 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so hopefully they did mean -1 for the unsigned conversions, and only the docs for the signed conversion is broken
< 1739524325 217882 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :does that make more sense to do?
< 1739524646 753404 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no
< 1739524690 377718 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yeah I hope so
> 1739524892 59273 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/PSTF Again 14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151934&oldid=151913 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+43) 10
< 1739524982 79962 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :my original mcr command works smoother than using < to direct /dev/stderr into sh
< 1739525672 794978 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :note that that's not what I did... I did it specifically for the interactive program, vim
< 1739525699 234275 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :which enables vim to gain control of the terminal, while the shell continues to read from the outer pipe
> 1739525768 870124 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/Mihai Again Twelve14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151935 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+5394) 10Created page with "1. [[Translated ZhongWen/PSTF Again |]]Special:Contributions/PrySigneToFry|<span style='font-family:Unifont;color:red;'>You computer has a severe errL$D3h$&% ?' L$H3h(*) ?+ L$L3h,.- ?/ L$P3h021 ?3 ?6$T3h45 ?7 ?:$X3h89 ?; ?p<=? ? F  ?~#?~n
< 1739525839 91196 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :mcr(){ while read -r i; do printf "%s" "$i" | awk "$1" | sh >&2 ; done ; } ;
< 1739525854 408722 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no
< 1739525872 209359 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the last thing you want to do is break stderr
< 1739525888 414201 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :really? i dont know what >&2 does
< 1739525932 834374 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it works better in my shell tho lol
> 1739526360 54785 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/Mihai Again Twelve14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151936&oldid=151935 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+16) 10
< 1739526361 974317 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` echo a | stat -c '%N' /proc/self/fd/{0,1,2} 2>&1 | cat
< 1739526365 65807 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​'/proc/self/fd/0' -> 'pipe:[225]' \ '/proc/self/fd/1' -> 'pipe:[226]' \ '/proc/self/fd/2' -> 'pipe:[226]'
< 1739526371 717917 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` echo a | stat -c '%N' /proc/self/fd/{0,1,2} | cat
< 1739526373 993772 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​'/proc/self/fd/0' -> 'pipe:[225]' \ '/proc/self/fd/1' -> 'pipe:[226]' \ '/proc/self/fd/2' -> 'pipe:[221]'
< 1739526422 648991 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :note how in the second case, FD 2 (stderr) is different from FD 1 (stdin); that's because it's still the original pipe that the outermost shell connects to
< 1739526455 669851 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you do that in a terminal, that pipe will be a terminal /dev/pts/NNN
< 1739526487 317661 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :mmm
< 1739526525 605128 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :You did 1>&2 so it instead breaks the pipe
< 1739526531 904976 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :neither of those is particularly helpful
< 1739526737 71429 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow I dont understand how that works
< 1739526745 926845 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :is there a way you can make it into a function
< 1739526872 810876 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh I see you are showing me WHY it breaks the pipe :)
< 1739526881 841395 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I dont know what it even does lol
< 1739526931 781326 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I need the copy of sh that comes after the pipe to take over the tty of the host
< 1739527861 116173 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1739529383 639802 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1739529575 389020 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` script echo hi # I wanted to check that that really happens when you try it in a terminal, but it turns out, the script program doesn't work in HackEso
< 1739529576 473592 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :script: openpty failed: No such file or directory
< 1739529603 106554 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder why
< 1739529637 683901 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` stat -c '%N' /proc/self/fd/{0,1,2}
< 1739529638 864110 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​'/proc/self/fd/0' -> '/null' \ '/proc/self/fd/1' -> 'pipe:[224]' \ '/proc/self/fd/2' -> 'pipe:[221]'
< 1739529646 738981 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :none of these are PTYs
< 1739529708 90059 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know what script does internally but I suspect there's some tty magic to detect whether the shell is receiving input or not
< 1739529753 844665 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` mount | /bin/sed 's/.* on \([^ ]*\) type .*/\1/' # I think /dev/pts isn't mounted
< 1739529755 1923 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​/bin \ /dev \ /lib \ /sys \ /tmp \ /usr \ /proc \ /sbin \ /lib64 \ /hackenv \ /hackenv/.hg \ /etc/alternatives
< 1739529784 220416 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1739529787 477587 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or maybe it's just that it wants to mirror an outer PTY as another PTY for running the shell?
< 1739529809 45377 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I probably don't care enough to actually figure that out :P
< 1739529947 915455 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: HackEso uses pipes rather than a pty when it runs commands by default, which I think is good because some programs try to detect if you're running them in a terminal and have different behavior, such as colorized or interactive, and this way they will correctly detect that it's not a terminal
< 1739529962 552661 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the script program is supposed to run a program in a fresh terminal
< 1739529984 66099 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: yes but evidently it also assumes that it runs inside a terminal
< 1739529998 506740 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :which makes sense because then it can just copy weird things from one to the other
< 1739530001 572799 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think so, but maybe I misremember
< 1739530005 781004 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :instead of being a fully fledged terminal emulator
< 1739530034 827153 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe I'm misreading the evidence
< 1739530037 101060 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION shrugs

< 1739530039 268036 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it just fails here because the libc function that creates a fresh pseudo-terminal needs /dev/pts mounted, but it's not mounted in HackEso
< 1739530046 397287 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, misinterpreting
< 1739530051 654248 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(or possibly not libc)
< 1739530099 317560 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait hold on
< 1739530108 278506 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess `script bash < /dev/null > /dev/null 2>&1` works so I'm wrong.
< 1739530118 995815 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` script -c 'echo hi'
< 1739530119 935894 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :script:
< 1739530170 176763 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I was invoking script wrong
< 1739530195 7903 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` cat typescript
< 1739530196 61389 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :cat: typescript: No such file or directory
< 1739530198 517882 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm
< 1739530213 61500 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` script -c 'echo DumA'  cat typescript # but it doesn't matter, it still doesn't work
< 1739530214 217972 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :script: openpty failed: No such file or directory
< 1739530219 856269 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` script -c 'echo DumA' && cat typescript # but it doesn't matter, it still doesn't work
< 1739530221 173553 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :script: openpty failed: No such file or directory
< 1739530283 244265 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Regarding mounts, I mount /dev using the UML hostfs type, which brings in the device nodes from the host's /dev/pts, that might certainly confuse some programs since it's plain weird.
< 1739530297 777690 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm
< 1739530313 148462 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` strace -eopenat script -c 'echo Hi' 2>&1 | grep dev
< 1739530314 410341 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :No output.
< 1739530317 551989 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know how openpty is actually implemented
< 1739530318 227262 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm
< 1739530370 78039 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It "should" probably instead set up a minimal static /dev on the initrd or something, and then mount /dev/pts (and a tmpfs on /dev/shm) on top of it.
< 1739530386 693818 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see an openat(AT_FDCWD, "/dev/ptmx", O_RDWR)   = 3
< 1739530387 927257 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :here
< 1739530441 96385 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` echo /dev/pt*
< 1739530443 215395 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​/dev/ptmx /dev/pts
< 1739530484 603665 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` ls /dev/pts
< 1739530484 789714 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm
< 1739530486 873416 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :0 \ ptmx
< 1739530488 96283 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`eject
< 1739530490 71991 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :eject? No such file or directory
< 1739530496 260819 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION shrugs

< 1739530594 304843 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :how does that bringing /dev in with UMLFS work? if you try to open and ioctl a device in the guest, will it open and ioctl it in the host, or will it just stat the device and emulate opening the device in the guest?
< 1739530636 738524 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` ls -F /dev
< 1739530638 641144 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :char/ \ console@ \ core@ \ fd@ \ full \ initctl@ \ log@ \ mqueue/ \ net/ \ null \ ptmx@ \ pts/ \ random \ shm/ \ stderr@ \ stdin@ \ stdout@ \ tty \ urandom \ zero
< 1739531259 222452 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1739531298 436613 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1739531429 665162 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` grep dev LOG
< 1739531430 862257 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :openat(AT_FDCWD, "/dev/ptmx", O_RDWR)   = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory) \ openat(AT_FDCWD, "/dev/ptyp0", O_RDWR)  = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory)
< 1739531464 453238 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(from `` strace -eopenat -o LOG script -c 'ls Hi' >/dev/null; grep dev LOG )
< 1739531490 602095 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(something about `script` totally messes up the way HackEso captures output)
< 1739531521 908409 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` ls -la /dev/ptmx
< 1739531523 869597 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :lrwxrwxrwx 1 0 0 8 Jul  1  2024 /dev/ptmx -> pts/ptmx
< 1739531528 985407 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` ls -la /dev/pts/ptmx
< 1739531530 276832 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :crw-rw-rw- 1 0 0 5, 2 Feb 14 11:12 /dev/pts/ptmx
< 1739531561 913325 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` cat /dev/ptmx
< 1739531562 857088 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :cat: /dev/ptmx: No such file or directory
< 1739531575 909263 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Fun!
< 1739531686 321106 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe that only works on a real devpts file system, not when you're trying to open an ordinary device file on a "normal" file system with those device minor and major numbers
< 1739531764 318110 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The thing is... the directory entry clearly exists. So I expected ENODEV or maybe EACCES as an error, but never ENOENT.
< 1739531797 310336 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But maybe UML translates it to something that doesn't exist on the host.
< 1739531802 493020 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, but some of those errno codes are overloaded
< 1739531803 842573 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And leaks that error.
< 1739531849 588683 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway. As we can see, just because it's there doesn't mean it's there. I love computers.
< 1739531874 435848 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no no, that's a feature
< 1739531888 756957 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :UMLbox is protecting you here, not letting the guest just directly open a device in the host
< 1739531888 793081 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, rephrasing: Just because it can be seen doesn't mean it's there.
< 1739531926 989108 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :imagine if you could just mkdev a device as root in the guest and overwrite the host's hard disk that way
< 1739531936 171549 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: And if it just said ENODEV I'd be completely fine with it.
< 1739531947 36328 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The way it is, I'm slightly disappointed :P
< 1739531958 971072 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait wait
< 1739531969 772691 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Pretty sure the /dev mount via hostfs just brings in the device nodes, it won't do any magic beyond that.
< 1739531982 219007 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man4/ptmx.4.html => "When a process opens /dev/ptmx, it gets a file descriptor for a pseudoterminal master"
< 1739531993 592174 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: yes
< 1739531996 36358 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Opening ptmx is suppposed to create an entry for the slave terminal, maybe *that* is what the ENOENT is for.
< 1739531999 591933 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's how openpty works
< 1739532023 600826 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, what fizzie says
< 1739532024 659932 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Because that one wouldn't show up in the /dev in the guest side.
< 1739532049 628837 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: well it's opening /dev/ptmx that returns ENOENT
< 1739532068 208321 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can still be right for whatever is happening under the hood of course
< 1739532083 613843 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was wondering if I could eject the cdrom drive of the host with the relevant IOCTL, but there's no /dev/cdrom
< 1739532112 974173 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` rm LOG
< 1739532114 437189 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :No output.
< 1739532116 273128 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` ls | wc
< 1739532117 623485 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​     52      52     400
< 1739532124 734942 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` ls
< 1739532126 790061 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​🌱 \ 3 \ a.o \ a.out \ asmbf-1.2.7 \ banana.txt \ bef2 \ bfi \ bin \ Burlesque \ canary \ cmd.whatis \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ detect \ detect.c \ egel-master \ egel-scripts \ egel.zip \ eGtbSgN68aHU \ fence.c \ foo \ he-ng.7z \ he-ng.7z.base64 \ he-ngc \ he-ngx \ hlu \ JoaoDir \ just \ karma \ le \ nonoodl \ olist.new \ output.b \ paste \ pd \ pd.c \ perlV \ pg \ pg.cxx \ pikhqbow_tst \ program \ -.s \ spline \ spout \ stall \ test \ test.sh \ this.p
< 1739532133 118538 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, that's what I meant. It's the act of opening /dev/ptmx is what's supposed to create the other slave entry (IIRC), not any action you do on it after you've opened it, and maybe that part involves checking that it was made and that's what's responsible for the errno that results. Or something along those lines.
< 1739532176 178116 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` wc 🌱
< 1739532177 193318 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​  3  14 163 🌱
< 1739532181 48000 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` cat 🌱 
< 1739532182 97571 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​#!/bin/bash \ a=(${@// / }) \ python3 -c"import random as r;x=range;r.seed(${a[1]});print(''.join([chr(([*x(32,127), 10])[int(r.random()*96)]) for i in x(${a[0]})]))"
< 1739532209 408272 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`cat canary
< 1739532210 491262 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Why are you taking Polly down into the mine? Polly's a parrot, not a canary! And where's my cracker?
< 1739532695 270099 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, that's my guess for where the ENOENT is from. ptmx_open does internally some sort of `open` call and directly returns its return value: https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/drivers/tty/pty.c#L849-L851
< 1739532763 942147 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :`ls /dev
< 1739532765 932312 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :char \ console \ core \ fd \ full \ initctl \ log \ mqueue \ net \ null \ ptmx \ pts \ random \ shm \ stderr \ stdin \ stdout \ tty \ urandom \ zero
< 1739532781 468010 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's surprisingly short.
< 1739532801 779436 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it's because it runs in a container with its own filesystem namespace, so it's not the "real" /dev of the host.
< 1739532817 668146 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(For some extra sandboxing beyond the UML.)
< 1739532991 903456 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder if the fact that /dev/shm is read-only might also be breaking some programs.
< 1739533000 801620 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` touch /dev/shm/foo
< 1739533001 883919 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :touch: cannot touch '/dev/shm/foo': Read-only file system
< 1739533040 504647 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: isn't it's because it pulls in the /dev/ from the root file system that is used only during boot, rather than the actual /dev/ that's mounted as a devfs?
< 1739533117 66051 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd expect the real /dev would have device files for some disks, but it doesn't seem like there's any here (there's a /dev/fd , but fd doesn't mean floppy disk in this context)
< 1739533117 378740 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :No, that /dev is a (read-only) UML hostfs mount. There is no /dev on the initrd.
< 1739533158 796721 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry, I don't mean initrd, I mean the /dev directory in the host's root file system
< 1739533167 845131 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or is that root filesystem an initrd?
< 1739533236 556155 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, that's what you meant. No, it's not an initrd, but I'm relatively sure it wouldn't pull in the /dev from the root file system, it would pull the mounted /dev instead, if that's what was at /dev where the UML was running.
< 1739533253 958881 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :But the reason why it has so few entries is because it's wrapped inside a systemd-nspawn container.
< 1739533350 328150 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure I understand that. Do you mean that the host systemd sets up a new root file system for a container, and the UML is running on the host in that container and with that file system as its root file system?
< 1739533395 302403 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, if I remember the setup correctly.
< 1739533409 290975 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that would make sense
< 1739533559 28472 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean it makes sense that that's how you're invoking UML, as part of the outer sandboxing. But I don't understand why you bring that into the guest, rather than setting up a different /dev directory for the guest, and maybe mount a devpts inside the guest over it if UML supports that
< 1739533567 30400 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1739533600 871263 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I agree, but I inherited that bit from the original umlbox and just never changed it. :)
< 1739533619 924992 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see
< 1739533741 892733 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there may be a bit of bootstrapping problem where you need a /dev before you can create a dev inside, because, at least for older non-UML linuxes, the kernel tries to open /dev/console before running init but after mounting the root file system, in order to give init the three standard handles. I think they changed that part of the code in the
< 1739533742 394041 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :kernel, but I don't know if a bootstrap /dev is still needed.
< 1739533877 835055 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, the umlbox initrd literally has a single file in it (/init). It starts by creating a /console (no /dev) and opening those file handles itself: https://github.com/fis/umlbox/blob/master/init.c#L73-L76
< 1739533952 27617 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also I'd forgotten that the command doesn't actually run with / being the UML initrd's /.
< 1739533960 536669 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see
< 1739534019 383527 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It sets up a subdirectory called /host and then chroots to it when it's running things: https://github.com/fis/umlbox/blob/master/init.c#L402-L403
< 1739534348 155588 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you could argue that means it's 4 levels of sandboxing deep: there's some unknown actual physical computing substrate operated by the VPS provider, they use a virtualization solution to offer me a logical computer (I think it's hardware-assisted KVM), I use Linux namespaces to set up a container, and an UML inside the container, and a classic chroot jail inside the UML.
< 1739534440 205738 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, but I think the more relevant for the innermost layer is not the chroot but the chown
< 1739534442 893498 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`id
< 1739534443 888995 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :uid=1000 gid=1000 groups=1000
> 1739536139 255414 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151937&oldid=151905 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+194) 10
< 1739536149 63360 :chomwitt_alt!~alex@2a02:587:7a13:5400:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd JOIN #esolangs chomwitt :realname
< 1739537107 762174 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1739537751 285766 :SGautam!uid286066@id-286066.ilkley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs SGautam :Siddharth Gautam
> 1739537811 678546 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151938&oldid=151536 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (-937) 10/* Horribly translated variants */
> 1739537892 962982 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151939&oldid=151938 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+19) 10/* Horribly translated variants */
> 1739538674 606782 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated Tri14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151940 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+1930) 10Created page with "Translated Tri is a horribly translated version of [[Tri]].  I should take more languages in the translator machine next!  1. Take this: <pre> // Prints "Hello, world!" to the console. // inc inc psh psh psh mul sto nxt sto psh mul lst psh add  sto prn nxt zro c
> 1739538744 193979 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated Tri14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151941&oldid=151940 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (-1) 10
> 1739538898 264869 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151942&oldid=151937 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+51) 10
> 1739538996 99251 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151943&oldid=151879 5* 03Squareroot12621 5* (+12) 10
> 1739539263 33961 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Squareroot1262114]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151944 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+139) 10Created page with "Are you squareroot12621 on the CGoL forums? ~~~~"
< 1739539264 438683 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
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< 1739541416 387266 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
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> 1739542104 781370 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StormLang14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151947 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+7852) 10Created page with "StormLang is collaboratively designed by PSTF, None1, and islptng.  = Language Overview = StormLang is turing-complete, supports to make gorgeous program and access the Internet, and may also construct artifical intelligences, high-level, strong like the fire, e
< 1739544273 63333 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :turns out my version of shell macros that dont rely on eval were broken the whole time
< 1739544278 593679 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I am stuck with the eval version for now
< 1739544640 622741 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I spend like 30 solid hours on mrc4 feelsbadman.jpg
> 1739545143 388316 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Anthonykozar/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151948&oldid=151876 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (+1327) 10Testing some formatting converted from Markdown
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> 1739550932 33326 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151954&oldid=148148 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-63) 10Removed unnecessary information and included my username
< 1739551742 276177 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: What's the bigger goal of these macro systems?
< 1739552089 268272 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
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< 1739553320 754291 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: 
< 1739553325 410833 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is a macro ssytem as a platform
< 1739553351 698960 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the macro system just aims to expand the macros efficiently and have a good language for describing the expansion of macros
< 1739553414 455351 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i personally plan to use this software to write my own macros but I need to think and reflect upon it for a few weeks before i do so
< 1739553445 182005 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :what do I plan on using the macro system for? for writing a compiler for fastlisp and a tool to integrate fastlisp into unix systems
< 1739553463 956774 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ultiamtely fastlisp is to be a master system and posix and python3 are to be worker systems of fastlisp
< 1739553720 86474 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: Nifty. Sounds like a lot of work though.
< 1739553795 815355 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :after studying this topic for 12 years it doesnt feel like work anymore it just feels normal
< 1739554009 101557 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure, but surely it's also been a couple of shifts. I can't imagine spending more than about 5yrs on any one line of study.
< 1739554059 601904 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I specialize in language architecture and I have been saving myself for *my* language
< 1739554093 806635 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I specialize in computability theory and every (Turing-complete) language is uniquely terrible.
< 1739554123 386722 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Still, I think it's cool to have a big goal like that.
< 1739554164 480528 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :my research in particular has to do with developing the easiest programming language possible
< 1739554211 970389 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh. Have you seen Quorum? I think it's a good warning to folks who want a language to be easy, readable, etc. at the cost of other features.
< 1739554228 575765 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :no I havent seen quorum whats that
< 1739554231 701914 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Still, sometimes that line of research produces cool stuff like Scratch.
< 1739554277 893948 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Quorum is an evidence-oriented language which incrementally changes to improve its readability. Same idea as Python, but taken to a scientific extreme. https://quorumlanguage.com/
< 1739554302 109114 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmmmmm.... I will ahve to give this a look thank you
< 1739554318 825470 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder how my approach with fastlisp differs from quorum
< 1739554323 951903 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The punchline is that Quorum tastes like early PHP or Java, with very little abstractive ability and requiring a minimum of five lines of code to express a concept.
< 1739554361 291616 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :is that good or bad?
< 1739554389 93841 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd say that it's bad. A language shouldn't require lots of ceremonies in order to express an idea.
< 1739554449 225691 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :public ThisCurrentReply subclasses IRCReply { to emitNextLine(emitter) { emitter.write("Imagine if every IRC message had to start with <<< this crap. Ridiculous, right?") } }
< 1739554549 215592 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I will make a note to myself to try to avoid boilerplate
< 1739554561 432000 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I hope that I have done a good job of it with fastlisp
< 1739554603 860245 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The fastlisp examples that you shared were alright. They did have one thing that I have been thinking about for the past few years: all of the names were declared.
< 1739554619 6433 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm...tired of names. But that is a personal preference and not one that I expect other people to share.
< 1739554685 336879 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So, ignoring the names, consider a Quorum class like https://quorumlanguage.com/Libraries/Game/Graphics/DrawableShape.html . It's basically AWT-era Java, and it sucks for the same reasons.
< 1739554709 415374 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I might end up extending teh standard so that names dont have to be declared
< 1739554717 663930 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :fastlisp also has nameless functions
< 1739554763 418746 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, yeah. Lambdas? Is fastlisp a Lisp-1 or Lisp-2? I don't judge; we see both around here.
< 1739554786 766490 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :in the year of our lord 2024 on the day of feburary 14 we are on fastlisp version 5 whos standard I have not publsihed yet
< 1739554800 71363 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :#this is a comment. any line whos first character is #
< 1739554822 520220 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :(lambda x (lambda y x)) this is a lambda that takes an x then takes a y then returns x
< 1739554850 763074 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :(lambda x (x x x)) this is a lambda that takes an x and applies it to itself three times
< 1739554885 683201 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :"this is a string. strings are not specified to be able to contain the quotation symbol"
< 1739554912 416238 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :strings compile to linked lists of true or false. true compiles to (lambda x (lambda y x)) false compiles to (lamdba x (lambda y y))
< 1739554984 713077 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the way to really do fastlisp in my mind is with names and without definitions. so you provide the names for the functions you want and the definitions of those names are passed into the program
< 1739555283 303546 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Interesting. Where's the name "fastlisp" come from?
> 1739555285 927784 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151956&oldid=151886 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-8) 10
< 1739555398 315630 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :fastlisp comes from the meme fcalled fastman
< 1739555647 489297 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :when I was 18 years old I created the onebag subreddit about living out of a backpack. some notable onebaggers were luigi mangione and sam bankmen freid
< 1739555678 595124 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :years ago I was ousted from the subreddit because I was cancelled for using harmful language as a joke
< 1739555703 281349 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :not wanting ot be censored again I made the fastman meme which extended the idea of onebagging and captured its ideas into a single jpg image that couldnt be censored
< 1739555780 330725 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :my discord is called fast server. my meme is called fast meme. my lisp is called fast lisp. i name everything fast. I probably should rename mcr to be called fastmcr
< 1739555856 293842 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...A better way to introduce the concept of living out of one bag might be the film Up in the Air (2009), which features several monologues by George Clooney about the philosophy.
< 1739555991 69074 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :indeed as well as the film and book titled jack reacher
< 1739556023 941814 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i live in a small trailer that is little more than a shed and I only keep in the trailer what would be in a hotel
< 1739556058 916312 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. I know a guy who lives in a yurt. I've also heard of Mongolia, although I've never visited.
< 1739556086 263124 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i lived out of my pockets for 1 year
< 1739556089 982276 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i have one pair of clothing
< 1739556120 813864 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :my phone is the same dimensions as the ipad mini
< 1739556133 671965 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :slightly larger than an unfolded samsung galaxy z fold
< 1739556184 653454 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i document the fastmeme here on thefastscrolls.neocities.org
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< 1739556325 559486 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i have fruityloops studio on my pocketable tablet which is like a full electronic music production studio with modular synthesizers and a midi
< 1739556336 931596 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :instead of carrying the classic travellers guitar
> 1739556346 474563 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151961 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1) 10Created page with "a"
> 1739556355 10419 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151962&oldid=151960 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-139) 10
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< 1739556445 267066 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hey, please don't post memetic hazards here. If you do it again, you're going to get an earful about metaphysics.
< 1739556486 69668 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, consider being direct. I'm not going to click through generated content in the hopes that some of it will be enlightening.
< 1739556544 60232 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :generated?
< 1739556668 728507 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, yeah. Also I'm not usually moved by aesthetics. Like, earlier when talking about SectorLisp, I was not kidding when I say that the problems with expressivity preclude its usage as a development platform or piece of production system.
< 1739556692 80945 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And I'm not going to ignore that jart's aesthetic desires are partially driven by her fascism, either.
< 1739556746 442715 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm something of a brutalist and I care much more about the semantic structure and machine behaviors of a system than its surface syntax.
< 1739556780 996616 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i love jart i started naming my variables j because of her
< 1739556814 57156 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ive spoken with jart in irc she has visted #lambdacalculus
< 1739556851 232209 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Be wary of her, as she's well-connected to Rationalists and may try to pull you into a Bay Area cult. Also, y'know, the fascism.
< 1739556959 777771 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so in every good community theres some bad apples and in every bad community theres a few good apples
< 1739556983 522102 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :for example tumblr is mostly good people but it has some bad folks
< 1739556993 21691 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :reddit mostly good people as well but a few bad apples
< 1739557018 404221 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And a few bad apples spoil the whole bunch. With apples, it's ethylene; with fascists, it's hateful memes. For example, jart's projects are named after various racist jokes and slurs. At scale, if a community tolerates it, they become a Nazi bar. Look at HN for a real example.
< 1739557034 922380 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :have you ever hung out inside of a meth den and just people watched?
< 1739557083 5554 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :some onine communties attract all kinds of people good and bad
< 1739557123 399520 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I grew up in Lane County, Oregon, one of the meth-production hotspots of the 90s. The local newspaper had a listing of "meth houses", houses which were no longer livable due to being used for meth production. Reclaiming meth houses is extremely expensive and meth users did not pay for it.
< 1739557136 199421 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you have ever seen the show jerry springer it is all about getting high on the drama of the social situation that the guests are going through
< 1739557156 752434 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and a decent portion of the people attracted to some of these hateful websites are just there to observe because it is fascinating
< 1739557190 300826 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure, but that doesn't justify their existence.
< 1739557209 432281 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i once had a tattoo artist who told me 'I love hearing the crazy stories from bigfoot people"
< 1739557226 154291 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :he said "i love hearing conspiracy theories from flat earthers"
< 1739557243 240521 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so some people are drawn to certain discords because of the allure of the scene
< 1739557248 898087 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :not because they themselves are hateful or bigoted
< 1739557254 593233 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And again, scale matters. The worst of the late-90s talk-show hosts, Oprah, introduced so much pseudoscience into the common discourse that we can blame her for e.g. multiple preventable outbreaks of communicable diseases.
< 1739557280 443896 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would say that bigfoot conspiracies are like exotic art
< 1739557296 178069 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :have you ever seen the video "alex jones is anime"
< 1739557324 377321 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Bigfoot sightings are just bears. Boring but true.
< 1739557335 174707 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :but what about a bigfut hunter sighting
< 1739557349 836172 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are bigfoot hunter hunters
< 1739557375 3546 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so these communits have all kinds of strange people glom onto them
< 1739557381 664879 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it is THOSE people tha tmake me glom on
< 1739557385 446856 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :not the rhetoric
< 1739557450 178959 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :one of the best places to go meet dev ops engineers is comic con in seattle
< 1739557453 277239 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure, but fascism isn't mere rhetoric. Having grown up in a fascist police state, I can attest that there are real harms done to real people by the police on behalf of moneyed and partisan interests.
< 1739557483 31106 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure I dont support fascism
< 1739557490 698533 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Another good place to meet people is SeaGL in Seattle. You'll find that SeaGL's organizers don't allow racism or other hate; why do you suppose that is?
< 1739557511 194179 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :they probably get paid to do that
< 1739557543 241938 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Fundamentally, fascists adore surface appearances because they don't have anything going on underneath. jart doesn't actually have any interesting insights about computer science; all of her work is gimmicks that have been trotted out for code competitions since before she was born.
< 1739557573 53051 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ha, no, SeaGL made that decision because fascists will make the event worse.
< 1739557580 799490 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :think about this for example lets say china attacked the us and we went to war in retalitation
< 1739557601 488110 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can go on the littel redbook app which his chinese tiktok and I can talk to people on the other side of that war
< 1739557614 178797 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :that has never happened in history
< 1739557624 844058 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :that I can go meet my political opponents face to face with no danger to my person
< 1739557628 127201 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's not a serious thought. That's a teenage fantasy.
< 1739557637 937193 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :its just an example
< 1739557661 355052 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"China attacks NATO member" is a terrible example that ignores the past half-century of Pacific diplomacy.
< 1739557665 258326 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :similarly people who are racist and bigoted are not normally people who I could meet and try to learn about them
< 1739557683 605058 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I dont even go there for the racist or bigoted people I go there for the other kinds of people that also flock to those spaces
< 1739557699 556849 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the racist people are just the loudest people in the room in those spaces but they arent the majority
< 1739557714 517110 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :its just a weird place where freaks show up to tell you the truth
> 1739557746 445181 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151965&oldid=151526 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+349) 10/* WoUlD yOu MiNd If I tHoUgHt Of YoUr "BRING BACK THE OLD SANDBOX" As An ExAmPlE pRoGrAm? */
< 1739557786 414041 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's no such thing as a silent majority. The statistics are fairly well-settled.
< 1739557805 316423 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh ok
< 1739557806 691170 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1BneeJTDcU
< 1739557834 38560 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can go meet breast cancer survivors tonight
< 1739557853 904569 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can go and talk to locals of the capital of somolia and talk to the owner of a restaurant there
< 1739557857 476601 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :over the phone
< 1739557867 228847 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i can call up the university of helsinki within 7 minutes
< 1739557875 754406 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can meat a n y o n e
< 1739557982 180132 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :im working with these fbi agents who are cracking these /soc/ grooming discords and I am collecting all these discord links and sharing them with the feds
< 1739558021 382130 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :a couple years ago I was working with the police to go after this gang of swatters and my family was swatted 16 times during that and the head of that ring was extradited to usa and is in federal prison
< 1739558027 693901 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know if eating rocks is why you glow.
< 1739558120 637023 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :theres just certain discords where all kind of interesting people show up of a wide range and variety and type
< 1739558128 590371 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and its discords where you can say anything that isnt illegal to say
< 1739558167 720284 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :my macro system is all about saying things that are illegal to say in the shell
< 1739558167 908971 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure; Discord exists to collect and centralize data on its users into one giant database, and Discord won't say how law enforcement accesses that database.
< 1739558192 704525 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :we need a distributed version of discord 
< 1739558196 894518 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Then it's not really a macro system, is it? Macros are about expansion and composition.
< 1739558198 636095 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :but e v e ry  o n e is on discor
< 1739558206 965920 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :my dad, my brother, my boss, my coworkers, they all have discord
< 1739558296 488386 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway I am a star trek guy I am all about peace and love and equality and the higher realms of the mind
< 1739558305 428602 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i think communism could work if it was applied properly
< 1739558311 536208 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In any West Coast state, using Discord can't be a condition of employment, unless your boss actually pays for a private guild. And IME they usually don't pay, so you can tell them to bite a bumper.
< 1739558331 790360 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it isnt a condition of employment, no
< 1739558338 417237 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :but its easier to just do it all on discord
< 1739558344 11359 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :our other store uses slack
< 1739558360 395036 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :its a mutally agreed upon thing we all prefer to be able to communicate
< 1739558372 341874 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And again, scale matters. Discord only has trillions of data points. Facebook has hundreds of trillions, and is actively complicit in three genocides right now, although their chatbots will only admit to two of them.
< 1739558406 119337 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :facebook is being funded out the wazoo by hedge funds and by congress critters if discord had that funding they might be able to scale it
< 1739558421 221024 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :facebook also has ads discord doesnt :)
< 1739558447 843510 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Incorrect. Facebook's growth is fueled by the same thing as the genocides, and it's not ads, premium features, or nebulous bankers. Facebook cares more about growth than *anything else*.
< 1739558472 223742 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe with this metaverse stuff I wil be able to have the same experience on facebook as on discord but lately i havent been getting what I need from facebook
< 1739558483 41529 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :they put a limit on how many times i can click the like button per day that is so cringe
< 1739558496 990872 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1739558529 953021 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1739558539 843416 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :do you know the allure behind terry a davis?
< 1739558546 719516 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :that is the samer eason why I am drawn to these discords
< 1739558564 190257 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Go find a Mastodon server whose rules you would be willing to follow and whose community makes posts that you like. Be aware that, given what you've said so far, many of the popular servers would not be willing to host you; you may find yourself on a "free speech" right-wing instance.
< 1739558577 310782 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1739558605 185316 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm an Oregon native and I know Terry's story. It's not alluring, it's a disappointment and yet another indictment of our failed healthcare systems as well as our failed psychiatric-care systems, at both the federal and state level.
< 1739558658 661554 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I grew up in Eugene. I went to see Ken Kesey's bus. It's not romantic, not in the context of the constant inability of our vulnerable and disabled folks to get the care that they need.
< 1739558664 976775 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :you are the second person to recommend mastadon for me I am goign to make an account and try it out
> 1739558666 864978 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zidryx myno14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151966 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+223) 10Created page with "Zidryx myno is [[python]] but every character is caeser-shifted the length of the program mod 26 == hello world ==  jlchn("byffi qilfx") == cat ==  dfwbh(wbdih()) == a+b problem ==  o=wbdih();p=wbdih();dfdwbh(wbh(a)+wbh(b))"
< 1739558693 456829 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ideally I would like an expereince much like how old reddit was in 2014
< 1739558703 315030 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I cant have that so thesee discords are the next best thing
< 1739558730 618523 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Then you want Lemmy. Be aware that the largest Lemmy instances are Marxist-Leninist and you may have to shop around for one that you like.
< 1739558759 322702 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't use Discord.
< 1739558818 866996 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :discord is my whole life
< 1739558845 479667 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm permanently banned from Discord because I failed the vibe check when I initially registered. They only want users that have relatively weak security, although we don't understand exactly how that's determined.
< 1739558886 941615 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow thats interesting
< 1739558903 198501 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :well good luck toy ou I have no choice but to use discord until another reddit comes along
< 1739558960 239081 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Use Discord if you want to, but you should not expect everyone to do so.
< 1739558997 307845 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that IRC and other stuff is better anyways
< 1739559009 598448 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(depending on what kinds of communications you intend)
> 1739559038 687225 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/trust quine14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151967 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+113) 10Created page with "<pre>import os print("please enter my source code") source_code=input() os.system("cls") print(source_code)</pre>"
< 1739559040 715035 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh i mean I think discord is on an evolutionary path towards something that everyone can use
< 1739559060 122517 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the magic of discord is nto in its dev ops but in its user interface. thats why people like it is its clever ui
< 1739559071 130689 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't use Discord because I'm upset by how it's attempting to monopolize online conversation (and to some extent is attempting to monopolize /information/ – my current view on that is that they are trying but have only been mildly successful)
< 1739559078 552852 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it makes ti easy to make communities that can chat and call
< 1739559110 347420 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so many small communities store all the information they're tracking on their Discord rather than using a world-readable website
< 1739559129 986694 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure, it makes it easy to set up new walled gardens inside the larger walled garden, and for each new inner garden to appear private.
< 1739559154 871904 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah I definitely dont agree witht he walled garden part you should be allowed to make your discord searchable
< 1739559165 39924 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is prettye asy to find discords for projects like python or debian though
< 1739559177 267561 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :those discords are actually run really well
< 1739559185 800499 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I'm currently years into a protracted argument in the Lojban community about whether a particular dialect exists. The speakers only discuss it within an invite-only Discord guild and refuse to publish any information about it.
< 1739559202 562665 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: isn't that just a debate about the definition of "exists"?
< 1739559216 270689 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unless you assume the speakers are lying about having invented the dialect
< 1739559253 551013 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are some esolangs in a similar situation (although, it's generally "one person has designed the esolang and how it works, and has disclosed its existence but no details", rather than multiple people being involved)
< 1739559283 114423 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Lojban is a fork of Loglan which is dedicated to the public domain. Historically, the community doesn't consider anything to be publically documented unless it's been dedicated as such. This Discord group both wants people to endorse the dialect, and also not to understand how to speak it.
< 1739559318 650290 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :do they appreciate that this request is not particularly convincing?
< 1739559355 928349 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The Loglan v Lojban lawsuit predates the Paramount v Klingon lawsuit, so we have slightly different norms around conlangs, but it's similar to the expectation today that if you make a fancy conlang then you need to explain its usage.
< 1739559379 608042 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Discord will require you to use the excessive Discord software and to use their servers too, and IRC does not require specialized software (although having it is useful anyways, it is not actually required).
< 1739559402 197691 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Why are they trying to endorse a dialect that also should not understand? It does not seem useful, isn't it?
< 1739559403 356299 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Yes. But also, over the past 5yrs of the dispute, I've built up a pile of hundreds of Metamath theorems, and in the process I've raised the standards for documenting forks of Lojban. I'm happy to help any dialect or fork with modernizing, *as long as they share alike*.
< 1739559408 510307 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess my viewpoint is mostly "if it's private and undocumented, it mostly doesn't matter to other people whether or not it exists, but there isn't much point putting it onto public lists if you can't do anything with it"
< 1739559460 818065 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, if it's not got a logic, then it's not a logical language. And if it's not logical, then why is it built on Lojban? It's "logic cosplay", to quote one of those Discord group members.
< 1739559500 107947 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(for context, zzo38 and I have both been known to use IRC via typing out all the commands using netcat, telnet, or the like, rather than an IRC client – mostly I do that when I need a second simultaneous connection to IRC to test something or other)
< 1739559538 709273 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and zzo38 has a sort of IRC semi-client which handles some things automatically but uses raw IRC commands for other things, but I don't konw the details
< 1739559565 543780 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And again I wouldn't mind, except that links to the Discord are then spammed in the public communities. And who wouldn't want to go to the invite-only Discord that excludes all of those mean people in the public channels!?
< 1739559591 600947 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Of course, I *am* mean. Can't argue against that.
< 1739559641 930857 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :<korvo> I'm permanently banned from Discord because I failed the vibe check when I initially registered. They only want users that have relatively weak security, although we don't understand exactly how that's determined. ← although malicious explanations are quite plausible, there's also typically a non-malicious explanation for that sort of thing – companies generally don't want banned users coming back to their platform, and when someone is connecting 
< 1739559643 509561 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in a strongly private way it can be hard to determine whether or not they are the same as some other person
< 1739559707 974087 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Rumor is that it could have been as simple as using Firefox on Linux. Their ToS forbids me from experimenting or attempting to learn what actually happened.
< 1739559733 990583 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wikipedia's rules about using Tor are a good example, and approximate to "anyone can access Wikipedia read-only via Tor, but if you want to make edits like that, you will first have to convince us of who you are and that your edits won't be a problem, and then you will be able to edit via logging in"
< 1739559754 491051 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is about the most open of a policy that makes sense, because otherwise it would be trivial to circumvent blocks like that, and many people have trieed
< 1739559764 289187 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, I gave my email, accepted the ToS, verified my email and phone number, and *then* was permabanned on first login. There's no recourse and it looks like their workflow was designed to keep folks like me in a little information ditch.
< 1739559942 51857 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...Sorry, I've been on this rant before but 
< 1739559950 102362 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :only just now recognized it. I'll go take a break.
< 1739560494 515716 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do like the way that IRC has both channel ops and network opers – if someone is attacking the network as a whole, or if the channel ops aren't around / are unavailable, the network opers can take over, but aren't needed in most cases
< 1739560512 500916 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I imagine that most chat networks do something similar but are less transparent about it
< 1739560602 203883 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I also like the way that Libera both allows and encourages channel ops to hide their op status, so that conversations don't get distorted by having an op present and people don't act weirdly round them – many IRC networks aren't like that and it leads to a somewhat weird social dynamic)
< 1739560980 250325 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i been up for 3 days writing mcr4 and still dont have a working version
< 1739561117 810163 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd recommend sleeping – you get slower at programming when you've been awake for ages, so you'll probably finish it faster even taking the time spent asleep into account
< 1739561151 181828 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1739561278 720144 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :no when I stay awake I become more smart and invincible
< 1739561318 343750 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :bang energy drink is much healhthier htan sleep
< 1739561327 732920 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: FWIW the "weird" dynamic is explainable by a single unified theory: power and responsibility are dual. This does lead rather directly into some philosophy that I know you're not especially fond of.
< 1739561395 563159 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i will code iit in pseudocode b4 i sleep
< 1739561414 70250 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I suspect it's a different relationship for the channels I was thinking of, where abuse of power for jokes was quite common and people were promoted based on time spent / familiarity with the mods rather than skill at moderation
< 1739561466 960818 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :often when things got onto undesirable topics it would be the unpowered users who would effectively moderate it by changing the subject, because the many ops and half-ops weren't doing anything
< 1739561501 799934 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there was a time when someone kicked me as a joke, and I got my revenge by not rejoining for 2-3 days (even though I strongly suggested it was intended as a joke rather than a punishment)
< 1739561654 605252 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Same theory. The idea is that the power exists because of the idea that the responsibility must exist and be delegated. In this case, because of the idea that chat spaces should exist and not be subject to certain sorts of heckling or dictatorship.
< 1739561758 516389 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :early Usenet is an interesting comparison, being basically unmoderated but with users able to (and effectively encouraged to) set up very comprehensive ignore lists
< 1739561769 19018 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it didn't last, although it lasted for quite a while
< 1739561964 301537 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. The game theory on top of power dynamics is non-trivial, and I think that that's a lot of what people focus on when they talk about power.
< 1739562069 754732 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also what's known as The Reputation Problem: any sort of connection between karma and privileges, including e.g. allowing open anonymous registration or metamoderation, will structure the resulting social dynamics. HN is awful partially because they let anybody come in and spout bullshit.
< 1739562091 898012 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Compare e.g. Slashdot or Lobsters, which use metamoderation and invite trees respectively to establish reputation amongst peers.
< 1739562136 225887 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Of course, one could argue that this Reputation is merely an instance of the Revelation Principle, and thus part of the non-trivial game theory. I think it's more of a meta-observation, something about how the structures interact.
< 1739562390 946739 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :alrite I took another stab at it https://github.com/memesmith0/mcr4/blob/main/README.md
< 1739562400 516909 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :have not tested this code
< 1739564902 503900 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :he he he mcr4 is wurking again
< 1739564916 32085 :chomwitt_alt!~alex@2a02:587:7a13:5400:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1739564928 391677 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have found it is better to give the user the options to their commands | sh >&2 than to leave them with nothing
< 1739565179 635059 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is preferable to > into &2 than to rely on eval
< 1739565843 341837 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo "Rumor is that it could have been as simple as using Firefox on Linux" => unlikely because I use Discord from Firefox on linux (and also from Firefox from Windows)
< 1739565882 722831 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't like Discord's TOS, but it's bad in a particularly innovative way that I haven't seen in other online services' conditions
< 1739565935 503622 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :specifically it requires that all bot connections use open source software as the bot
< 1739566011 370509 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think they're in a friendly competition with twitch on who can put the weirdest conditions into their TOS
< 1739566214 515223 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: a requirement for bots to be open source is weird, but not nearly as weird as Twitch's TOS
< 1739566256 940336 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, but I think Twitch's TOS became more weird in the last few years, so it may have been less weird back when Discord started
< 1739566283 218017 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but yes, Twitch is probably winning right now
> 1739566285 972061 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Anthonykozar/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151968&oldid=151948 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (+54) 10Add  class="wikitable" to the tables.
< 1739566525 234588 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm vaguely reminded of the US's requirement that certain types of cryptographic code require substantial paperwork to release, unless it's licensed public domain in which case the paperwork isn't needed
< 1739566587 794870 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am wondering if the requirement was intended to be "source available" rather than "public domain" (which would make some amount of sense given the apparent reasoning behind the paperwork) but they used the wrong terms
< 1739566615 474884 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :still, public domain code usually is source-available (and even open source) in practice even though it logically doesn't have to be
< 1739566622 743448 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's because the export restrictions don't override First Amendment right to speech. See DJB v USA.
< 1739566655 854849 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, I hadn't considered that at all, basically because there isn't an obvious connection in my mind between public domain and free speech
< 1739566656 796184 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ITAR paperwork still applies to corporations, particularly those with military contracts.
< 1739566726 390273 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's definitely USA-specific, but see also Zimmerman's publishing of source code in a book to fight against Canadian restrictions.
< 1739566804 649005 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, whoops, that's "Zimmermann", and that was also against the USA.
> 1739569061 588263 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151969&oldid=151943 5* 03Buckets 5* (+9) 10
> 1739569077 599871 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151970&oldid=151878 5* 03Buckets 5* (+8) 10
> 1739569092 324008 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151971 5* 03Buckets 5* (+744) 10Created page with " (Pronounced Plus-Minus) is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2024. {| class="wikitable" |+ Caption text |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | <sub>m</sub> || Set a group of Plus or Minus with The integer n. |- | <sub>n</sub> || Set a group of Minus o
> 1739569166 69338 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151972&oldid=151965 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+345) 10/* WoUlD yOu MiNd If I tHoUgHt Of YoUr "BRING BACK THE OLD SANDBOX" As An ExAmPlE pRoGrAm? */
< 1739569184 70084 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs ::;mcr4_(){ (v(){ printf "%s" "$1"|awk "$2"||exit;};c="$2";f="$3";while read -r l;do j="$(v "$l" '$1')";if [ "$j" = "mcr4_f" ];then read -r l;f="$f$l";elif [ "$j" = "mcr4_c" ];then read -r l;c="$c$l";else v "$l" "$f{l=\$0}END{$c printf \"%s\\n\",l}";fi;done;)};mcr4(){ (if [ "$1" = "sh" ];then mcr4_ "$@"|sh>&2;else mcr4_ "$@";fi;)};:
< 1739569208 4284 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :lets play eye spy. can you spy >&2
< 1739572922 546910 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1739573804 121712 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151973&oldid=151970 5* 03Buckets 5* (+42) 10
> 1739573810 896465 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151974&oldid=151969 5* 03Buckets 5* (+43) 10
> 1739573822 1525 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Minitable14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151975 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1749) 10Created page with ": ''The title of this article is not correct because of technical limitations. The correct title is actually  {| class="wikitable" |}.'' {| class="wikitable" |} is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2022. (Rings are the size of 6l cells pe
< 1739574304 466905 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :mcr4(){ (c="$1";f="$2";while read -r l;do if [ "~" = "$l" ];then read -r l;c="$c$l";read -r l;f="$f$l";else printf "%s" "$l"|awk "$f{l=\$0}END{$c print l}"||exit;fi;done;)};
< 1739574317 370901 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :mcr4sh(){ mcr4|sh>&2;};
< 1739575470 311802 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1739576029 707154 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: https://www.amd.com/en/products/processors/desktops/ryzen/9000-series/amd-ryzen-9-9950x.html specs for an AMD processor that is already on the market and it claims to support AVX512 instructions, but I'm not sure I can completely trust that page because I think it's poisoned by marketing, also it claims 1280 KB of L1 cache which is very suspicious, they probably summed the sizes of multiple 
< 1739576035 715564 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :types of caches through each processor core
< 1739576059 337697 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also the instruction set extensions are listed in alphabetic order
< 1739576082 432523 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am still guessing it has at least some AVX512 support, but I should look elsewhere than that page
< 1739576178 302699 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: AMD has been adding together the size of L1c and L1d for ages – so it's probably the total L1c and L1d across all cores
< 1739576212 578327 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which would make sense for a "quantity of cache" measurement, even though size of cache is what you actually care about usually
< 1739576232 827426 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(if you are running two unrelated programs simultaneously, having a separate L1 for each of them is useful, so cache quantity is not entirely useless as a measure)
< 1739576286 611968 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, it's like saying I have 9 meters of heights of stepladders total in this workshop. doesn't help if I want to reach a four meter high ceiling.
< 1739576397 339421 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder if they're adding TLB cache in it too
< 1739576527 564977 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is that distinct from the TLB itself?
< 1739576568 10434 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but in any case I don't think the TLB counts as L1 cache
< 1739576607 96761 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, I see – TLBs can have multiple levels, so the first level of a TLB can be considered a "level 1 cache" in a sense
< 1739576695 152611 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :um, I don't know if it has any level other than level 1
< 1739576707 857837 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION reflects on how bizarre a name "transaction lookaside buffer" is

< 1739576725 678068 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, I used to call it page table cache but people kept telling me it's called TLB
< 1739576802 219214 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder if it has a similar history to the car/cdr names in Lisp
< 1739576835 807555 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I might use "cdr" in a language I'm designing to avoid the ambiguity of "tail" (which could reasonably be "last element" or "all but the first element")
< 1739576891 708179 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the advantage of this sort of coined word (which is effectively a nonsense word even though it has an etymology) is that it's unlikely to be associated with meanings other than the meaning it was coined with
< 1739576943 96844 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that works for "cdr" but not for "car"
< 1739576985 451023 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes – I probably wouldn't use "car" to pair with it
< 1739577012 971994 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :other possible naming conventions are first,last,butfirst,butlast (I don't recall where I've seen those) or head,tail,behead,curtail (from J)
< 1739577042 168952 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do like behead/curtail although they sound a bit like mutating operations
< 1739577062 679383 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is likely OK if your language is pure, there's no way to be misunderstood there
< 1739577476 897473 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If it's all added together then it sounds like 8KiB of bookkeeping and 32KiB of L1 per processing core, which sounds physically plausible.
< 1739577581 455022 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Quit: Leaving