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00:01:59 <HackEso> 1/1:179) <zzo38> Invent the game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" (these names are just generated by randomly) \ 1234) <Jafet> Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "I know, I'll use the Banach-Tarski theorem."
00:02:48 <int-e> (And then they have two problems?)
00:07:59 <b_jonas> int-e: https://xkcd.com/804/
00:08:00 <ais523> two problems both the same size as the original!
00:09:12 <b_jonas> you don't need the Banach-Tarski theorem for that if the problem is an infectious disease
00:33:30 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bitchanger Busy beaver]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152250 * PkmnQ * (+110) Created page with "What was used to confirm these? -~~~~"
00:40:34 <b_jonas> oh, and I guess if you have built-in integers you might as well add a bitwise-and method to them, that can help
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00:49:38 <Lykaina> Sgeo: Have you looked at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Afth lately?
00:49:51 <Sgeo> I haven't actually seen it before now
00:54:18 <Sgeo> I wonder if the page would be a bit clearer if rearranged, introducing the concept of command groups and the initial letters table before showing any examples that use those
00:56:19 <Sgeo> I'm curious about the rationale behind using tk specifically for some things. I'd wonder if that makes it more esoteric, but then again a lot of CPUs have instructions that have to be used with specific registers
00:56:53 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152251&oldid=152247 * Lykaina * (+0) /* Syntax */ moved things around.
00:57:25 <Sgeo> Are wordnum = wnum and varnum = vnum? Maybe they need to be defined and one chosen for each (e.g. using wordnum consistently, or wnum consistently)
00:58:27 <Lykaina> the k in tk is for kompare
01:00:10 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152252&oldid=152251 * Lykaina * (+5) /* Core Instructions */ fixing typo Sgeo noticed
01:00:29 <Lykaina> should be wordnum and varnum
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01:10:19 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152253&oldid=152252 * Lykaina * (+32) /* Initial Letters Table */ clarifying something
01:14:32 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152254&oldid=152253 * Lykaina * (+15) /* Jumping */ formatting change
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01:58:34 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152255&oldid=152254 * Lykaina * (+6) Fixing first line.
02:05:17 <Lykaina> should I put the Core Instruction list in ASCII order?
02:07:32 <Sgeo> Can you put some sort of sorting on the table that lets the reader of the article choose sort order? I think by category makes sense as a default but can imagine why someone would want ASCII sort
02:07:35 <korvo> If there's no better order, then sure. Oftentimes instructions come with some sort of natural grouping or relationship.
02:08:22 <Lykaina> the current order is a more logical one
02:09:50 <Sgeo> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Sortable_tables I don't know if the wiki supports this
02:10:26 <Lykaina> i'll create https://esolangs.org/wiki/Afth/ASCII-sorted or something like that
02:11:44 <Lykaina> and i think it's time to remove {{stub}}
02:13:15 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152256&oldid=152255 * Lykaina * (-10) Removing {{stub}}.
02:43:44 <esolangs> [[Afth/ASCII-Core]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152257 * Lykaina * (+3583) ASCII-sorted Core Instructions
02:47:43 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152258&oldid=152256 * Lykaina * (+71) /* Core Instructions */ Adding link to the Afth/ASCII-Core page.
02:48:02 <korvo> Lykaina: Thinking like a technical writer: If somebody wanted to implement Afth, what would they need to know first? What would they read and how would they read it? It can be a useful perspective.
03:00:04 <Lykaina> I'm gonna make a separate page for the examples, as I tend to deconstruct them for the programmer's benefit. That takes up a lot of space.
03:04:37 <esolangs> [[Afth/Examples]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152259 * Lykaina * (+431) Making separate page for Afth Examples and their deconstructions and explanations.
03:08:01 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152260&oldid=152258 * Lykaina * (-377) /* Examples */ Moved Examples to Afth/Examples
03:47:09 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152261&oldid=152260 * Lykaina * (+169) /* Initial Letters Table */ formatting fix
03:51:06 <Lykaina> I have an idea for [[Afth/Ascii-Core]]...why not add blank spaces for the valid chars that aren't used?
03:58:49 <Lykaina> I'll do it on my GitHub's wiki instead, as it's useful for me.
04:16:55 <esolangs> [[Afth/ASCII-Core]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152262&oldid=152257 * Lykaina * (+128) Adding "External Links"
04:20:51 <esolangs> [[Afth/Examples]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152263&oldid=152259 * Lykaina * (+106) Adding "External Links"
04:24:20 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152264&oldid=152261 * Lykaina * (+79) /* External Links */ adding link to GitHub Wiki
04:43:22 <esolangs> [[Afth/Examples]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152265&oldid=152263 * Lykaina * (+125) /* Examples */ Added "Cat"
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05:15:17 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152266&oldid=152210 * TDNerd * (+180) TDNerd's introduction
05:57:13 <esolangs> [[Afth/ASCII-Core]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152267&oldid=152262 * Lykaina * (+806) /* ASCII-Sorted Core Instructions */ Added space to show what is unused, something I need and others implementing the language might.
05:58:21 <esolangs> [[Afth/ASCII-Core]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152268&oldid=152267 * Lykaina * (-20) /* External Links */ renamed link.
06:09:55 <esolangs> [[Deadman]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152269&oldid=151034 * Win7HE * (-81) /* Hello world program */
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07:44:15 <esolangs> [[Ti!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152270&oldid=150415 * 47 * (+65) /* Implementations */
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07:51:52 <esolangs> [[+*-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152271&oldid=145718 * 47 * (+255) /* External resources */
07:54:01 <esolangs> [[6]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152272&oldid=149624 * 47 * (+132) /* Online interpreters */
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08:57:13 <esolangs> [[Pointing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152273&oldid=152159 * Calculus is fun * (-624) removed linked list
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09:10:09 <lisbeths> korvo: so I realized quantum computers are like big prolog machines. they test every possible scenario
09:10:19 <lisbeths> so the idea of prolog and the idea of quantum computers fit together like a glove
09:34:22 <esolangs> [[Pointing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152274&oldid=152273 * Ractangle * (+61)
09:34:52 <esolangs> [[MoreMathRPN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152275&oldid=151562 * Ractangle * (+44)
09:36:04 <esolangs> [[Fun Video Game]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152276&oldid=151365 * Ractangle * (+10) /* BASE */
09:37:43 <esolangs> [[Fun Video Game]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152277&oldid=152276 * Ractangle * (+2) /* akdrfsbathnede knem */
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09:42:38 <esolangs> [[Talk:Array?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152278&oldid=151546 * Ractangle * (+191)
09:43:09 <esolangs> [[Talk:Array?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152279&oldid=152278 * Ractangle * (-6)
09:44:19 <esolangs> [[Talk:Array?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152280&oldid=152279 * Ractangle * (+33)
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09:58:47 <esolangs> [[Talk:Array?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152281&oldid=152280 * 47 * (+27)
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10:11:19 <lisbeths> korvo: it seems to me that the first problem is reducing prolog down to its grammatical essence. and then to take that language and redesign it to be a child on an evolutionary tree of languages designed to be sent into a jit
10:11:32 <lisbeths> i say that minkanren is along the grammatical path of evolution for prolog
10:11:52 <lisbeths> java is an ancient example of something along the path of evolution for a jitted language
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10:50:24 <esolangs> [[Bitchanger Busy beaver]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152282&oldid=152212 * C++DSUCKER * (-156) Found a mistake in my generating code
10:51:40 <esolangs> [[Bitchanger Busy beaver]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152283&oldid=152282 * C++DSUCKER * (+0)
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11:27:15 <esolangs> [[StormLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152284&oldid=152057 * PrySigneToFry * (+455)
11:33:06 <esolangs> [[BFInfinity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152285&oldid=148566 * PrySigneToFry * (+915)
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11:55:17 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Luna * New user account
12:07:49 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152286&oldid=152266 * Luna * (+116) introducing myself
12:08:25 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152287&oldid=152286 * Luna * (+0) fixed typo in my introduction
12:42:22 <esolangs> [[Muriel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152288&oldid=150186 * Luna * (+3) fixed missing preposition
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12:48:40 <esolangs> [[Muriel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152289&oldid=152288 * Luna * (+1)
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14:32:53 <wib_jonas> I have a question about the zlib compression format. Is it possible to add padding near the end of a zlib stream, as in make the compressed stream longer in a way that doesn't change the decompressed stream? Is it possible to add padding with length of any given number of bytes above some small minimum size?
14:34:38 <wib_jonas> I'll try to read https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1951 but I figured someone here probably already knows.
14:34:47 <Lykaina> .zip stores data at the end of the file
14:35:50 <wib_jonas> zip or jpeg doesn't help me, I'd like zlib specifically
14:36:52 <wib_jonas> zlib is gzip without the gzip headers, not zip/pkzip
14:37:56 <Lykaina> well, you can concatenate a non-animated .gif and a .zip/.jar.
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14:38:21 <wib_jonas> both zip and gzip are wrappers around the deflate/zlib format
14:38:40 <wib_jonas> but here I'd like the raw deflate/zlib if possible
14:39:06 <Lykaina> sorry, i don't know...maybe someone else does
14:39:39 <fizzie> I think there's a thing, because I remember flushing a deflate encoder adds something. But it may be a fixed-length something, so maybe not suitable for a padding of arbitrary length.
14:40:22 <fizzie> This was in Go, and I remember reading this bit in the compress/flate (which does raw deflate streams) docs: "Calling Flush when there is no pending data still causes the Writer to emit a sync marker of at least 4 bytes."
14:40:55 <fizzie> There's a reference in the code also to https://www.bolet.org/~pornin/deflate-flush.html which explains what that is.
14:41:17 <fizzie> (Look up "type 0 block with empty contents" in that document.)
14:44:20 <fizzie> Also I believe "zlib" (the format) also has headers around a deflate stream, similar to gzip except more minimal, even if "zlib" (the library) can be used to produce raw deflate data as well.
14:52:36 <fizzie> Unrelated to your question, but the thing that I needed raw deflate streams for was to make a rudimentary seekable compression format, by splitting the (uncompressed) input to ~512kiB "frames" each compressed independently, and then appending a seek table with (compressed offset, uncompressed offset) pairs at the end.
14:52:53 <fizzie> There's some sort of semi-standard called "seekable ZSTD" that (I believe) does something vaguely similar, except in a manner that's transparently compatible with ZSTD decoders that don't know about it (by hiding the necessary extra data in "skippable frames" the ZSTD format has), and I tried just to use a random Go implementation of that to begin with, but it managed somehow to use tens of
14:52:55 <fizzie> gigabytes of RAM when writing and threw up errors when reading.
14:53:04 <fizzie> So I DIY'd it instead, and that seems to work fine.
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16:16:26 <wib_jonas> Ok, so zlib is made of blocks, each can be type 0 uncompressed or type 1 compressed with the default Huffman-table or type 2 compressed with a custom Huffman-table. The uncompressed data that the blocks represent are of byte granularity, but the compressed blocks are bit granular, except that type 0 uncompressed blocks are byte aligned after the 3
16:21:04 <wib_jonas> So a type 0 (uncompressed) block is made of 3 bits, then up to 7 bits of padding for byte alignment, then 4 bytes of header that specifies the length of the uncompressed payload measured in bytes, this length can be up to 65535 bytes or up to 32767 bytes, I'm not sure which, it doesn't matter. So an uncompressed block representing no bytes in the
16:21:04 <wib_jonas> uncompressed input can be used for padding, and this is 3 bits plus 4 bytes long, 5 bytes long if repeated.
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16:23:46 <wib_jonas> Now the type 1 or type 2 blocks Huffman-encode a number of items each of which represents a literal byte or a repeat statement or an end of block marker. A repeat statement copies a number of bytes from the 33k long window of recently seen uncompressed data, which may be from previous blocks.
16:24:21 <wib_jonas> Now the bad news is that a repeat statement always outputs at least three bytes, so you can't use it as padding without effects.
16:26:33 <wib_jonas> The good news is that you can still use a type 1 block that contains just an end of block marker, and this is 10 bits long; or a type 2 block that contains just the description of the Huffman encoding followed by an end of block marker, which is variable length and between something like 50 to 2315 bits long, I'm not sure about either limit.
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16:28:19 <wib_jonas> So you can add padding to a deflate stream, and it's not even hard because the representation of the padding can be precomputed as bit streams and they don't depend on the previous blocks of the zlib stream. I don't know which type is the most efficient for long padding, this would have to be tested with zlib and possibly multiple other inflate
16:33:48 <korvo> Ah, they just left.
16:33:58 <korvo> Summarizing note for when lisbeths returns: NP ain't BQP.
16:55:19 <leah2> can you prove that :p
17:32:44 <wib_jonas> leah2: probably no, because there's a million dollar prize on it
17:33:02 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bitchanger Busy beaver]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152290&oldid=152250 * C++DSUCKER * (+265)
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17:34:11 <korvo> leah2: What b_jonas said. But we have some good evidence that NP doesn't collapse (indeed that PH doesn't collapse) and also good evidence that BQP derandomizes under some nice still-unknown conditions.
17:35:40 <korvo> In the case to explain to lisbeths, it should be possible to simulate a poly amount of qubits in Prolog, but it'll take exponential time to actually extract an answer from a simulated quantum computation. This matches Holevo's theorem.
17:36:43 <korvo> If BQP derandomizes to BPP then we can speed up the simulation by taking e.g. real-world entropy and taking multiple trials, just like a quantum computer currently does in e.g. Shor's algorithm.
17:38:26 <korvo> ...I might be a little strong here with my wording. I believe in both Exponential Time and also that hardness is confined to specific regions of instability; so hardness recursively includes a difficulty in recognizing which problems are hard.
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18:52:45 <b_jonas> korvo: I think it's the other direction that's the problem with lisbeth's statement. as in the original was https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2025-02-20.html#lub which seems to say that NP is in BQP in some easy way, which is a common misconception that's still mentioned in https://scottaaronson.blog/ 's tagline/motto.
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18:54:29 <b_jonas> but it's possible that I'm misinterpreting what lisbeths sayid
18:55:19 <korvo> b_jonas: Oh, sure. I'm gonna put a pin in the actually interesting stuff (JIT'ing Prolog) but this is a really good point for understanding.
19:21:14 <esolangs> [[FOSMOL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152291&oldid=152229 * Aadenboy * (+140) /* Example macros */ macro info
19:25:28 <esolangs> [[OIIAOIIA]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152292 * Tommyaweosme * (+352) Created page with "OIIAOIIA is a [[brainfuck]] derivative that is very special. == commands == transition from... O to O + O to I - O to A ++++++++++ I to O < I to I [ I to A ] A to O . A to I , A to A > space reset == reading it == o /u/ i /i/ a /a/ /e/ == examples
19:25:58 <esolangs> [[OIIAOIIA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152293&oldid=152292 * Tommyaweosme * (+2) /* print "a" */
19:29:41 <korvo> It's only been a couple weeks returning to partial-evaluation literature and I'm already struck by the fact that partial evaluation in a metalanguage is so easy compared to self-application, because our object languages are deeply unpleasant and primitive.
19:30:38 <korvo> PE of Scheme, C, and Prolog are all proven self-applicable, but at too steep a psychic cost to maintain over time.
19:31:20 <korvo> PE of simple flowchart and SML-ish languages are also proven self-applicable, but we have to write all of our PE logic in these dinky little Turing tarpits.
19:36:09 <korvo> I did prove some fun lemmas along the way. Suppose a language admits a syntactic monoid; the binding-time analysis (BTA) can be monoidally decomposed, and this holds up when categorified.
19:38:28 <korvo> For example, Brainfuck's got a decomposable monoid. BTA simulates a state of (cells, pointer, unconsumed input) and annotates the program according to reachable states, bottoming out when there's no more input, when everything's static, or when the pointer or current cell value become too dynamic.
19:39:24 <korvo> That's actually more sophisticated than the expected BTA from Brainfuck interpreter structure, which is usually like (cells, pointer).
19:41:20 <korvo> I also found some fun folklore lemmas. PE of simply-typed LC is Jones-optimal when it includes inlining, unfolding, constant propagation, and constant simplification. That's a remarkably plausible-sounding inventory for those of us who are willing to write STLC.
19:54:53 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/sandbox 2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152294 * Tommyaweosme * (+194) Created page with "<span style="background: #eee !important; font-family: 'Segoe UI', sans-serif !important; padding: 1em 2em !important; border-radius: 0.5em !important">Wow! This is a nice looking button!</span>"
19:57:53 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/sandbox 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152295&oldid=152294 * Tommyaweosme * (+99)
19:58:01 <esolangs> [[Q-BAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152296&oldid=70969 * Cosmikdebris * (+44) /* External resources */ archive snapshot
20:54:41 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152297&oldid=152240 * Buckets * (+100)
21:07:09 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152298&oldid=152297 * Buckets * (+68)
21:16:33 <esolangs> [[!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152299&oldid=149401 * Ractangle * (+84) /* Syntax */
21:17:06 <esolangs> [[!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152300&oldid=152299 * Ractangle * (+6) /* Syntax */
21:21:14 <esolangs> [[!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152301&oldid=152300 * Ractangle * (-110) /* Examples */
22:14:29 <b_jonas> Sgeo re https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2023-08.html#lX8 no photo just an anecdote, but I found further evidence that slashed letter o was historically used for handwriting in programming: https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2023-08.html#lX8
22:16:44 <Sgeo> The anecdote is the same document I linked? Or was one of those links meant to be something else?
22:18:04 <b_jonas> new evidence: http://www.madore.org/~david/skeets.html#skeet-20250219113239667
22:21:04 * Sgeo writes an emulator that requires installing com0com and using Chrome
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22:54:29 <esolangs> [[WaidWmy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152302&oldid=149968 * AlmostGalactic * (+177) /* Labels */
23:25:41 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152303&oldid=152264 * Lykaina * (+256) /* Syntax */ Added something about "Stacks"
23:52:34 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152304&oldid=152223 * Buckets * (+10)
23:52:41 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152305&oldid=152224 * Buckets * (+11)
23:52:55 <esolangs> [[Abba]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152306 * Buckets * (+536) Created page with "Abba is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2021. (The cell can only store 1 digit.) {| class="wikitable" ! Commands !! Instructions |- | 0-9 || + 0-9 |- | g || 'glue 1,wait until g again.' |- | c || It clears the cell. |- | o || It prints what i
23:57:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:Abba]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152307 * Buckets * (+203) /* What does 'glue 1,wait until g again.' Mean? */ new section