ERROR! Traceback (most recent call last):   File "", line 1     ERROR!          ^ SyntaxError: invalid syntax

[+>>>-[.]<<<,[-]>>[+<-]>>>>]>>>>+[[-][<]>>[-][+<.]++>+>+++++++[<++++>>++<-]++>>+>+>+++++[>++>++++++<<-]+>>>,<++[[>[->>]<[>>]<<-]<[<]<+>>[>]>[<+>-[[<+>-]>]<[[[-][++>-]<]++<-[<+++++++++>[<->-]>>]>>]]<<]<]<[[<]>[[>]>>[>>]+[<<]<[<]<+>>
< 1738450124 656242 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User-webchat:37962 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User_webchat :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1738450221 515199 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User-webchat:37962 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1738450267 483806 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Lykaina14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151157&oldid=151104 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+31) 10Updating...
> 1738450460 302606 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151158&oldid=151153 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+10) 10Marking the stub as a stub.
< 1738450670 765679 :Ae`!Ae@linux.touz.org NICK :Ae
< 1738451136 593405 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :"W ,olleH">:#,_#vt@
< 1738451136 826521 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :@_,#:<"orld!"*25<
< 1738451136 864908 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :Unknown command, try @list
< 1738451229 613843 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh...of course that won't work
> 1738451341 641523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Jburns22 5*  10New user account
> 1738451566 369863 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151159&oldid=151137 5* 03Jburns22 5* (+275) 10
> 1738452109 711048 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Onesharp14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151160 5* 03Jburns22 5* (+172) 10Created page with "'''Onesharp''' is a minimalistic programming language created as a teaching tool by Larry Moss. It is designed to run on a register machine using only two symbols, 1 and #."
< 1738453146 318715 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://lykaina.sdf.org/esolangs/fungeball/helloworld.bft is the test of "Hello World" for Fungeball
< 1738453174 258229 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :should run in befunge-98
< 1738453406 1323 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you have an interpreter published, link it from the wiki
< 1738453549 301935 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :right
< 1738453552 976848 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 3.5
< 1738453568 114109 :izabera!izabera@2a01:7e00::f03c:92ff:fe92:6cd9 JOIN #esolangs * :izabera
< 1738453572 346077 :izabera!izabera@2a01:7e00::f03c:92ff:fe92:6cd9 NICK :isabella
< 1738453582 336103 :isabella!izabera@2a01:7e00::f03c:92ff:fe92:6cd9 CHGHOST izabera :user/meow/izabera
< 1738454300 744685 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :adding a copyright notice to the code
< 1738454305 479114 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :mit license
< 1738454634 428352 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1738454761 642713 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
> 1738455258 291697 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Onesharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151161&oldid=151160 5* 03Jburns22 5* (+1346) 10
> 1738455272 1150 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151162&oldid=151158 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+57) 10adding link to python file
> 1738455296 249745 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Onesharp14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151163&oldid=151161 5* 03Jburns22 5* (-2) 10
> 1738455321 683187 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Onesharp14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151164&oldid=151163 5* 03Jburns22 5* (+6) 10
> 1738455336 87923 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Onesharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151165&oldid=151164 5* 03Jburns22 5* (+0) 10
< 1738455364 689710 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :how does https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fungeball now?
> 1738455395 862191 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Onesharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151166&oldid=151165 5* 03Jburns22 5* (+206) 10
< 1738455405 205606 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean, how does https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fungeball look now?
> 1738455574 430832 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Onesharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151167&oldid=151166 5* 03Jburns22 5* (-64) 10
> 1738455673 764055 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Onesharp14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151168&oldid=151167 5* 03Jburns22 5* (+3) 10
> 1738456053 869012 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snub14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151169&oldid=151150 5* 03Buckets 5* (+2) 10
< 1738459376 42173 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1738459404 412296 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151170&oldid=151162 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+658) 10Added some content, self-unmarking as stub.
< 1738459483 416896 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll add more to https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fungeball in a little bit
> 1738459593 339851 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hsxiaobai14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151171&oldid=151138 5* 03Hsxiaobai 5* (+85) 10
> 1738459618 829272 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hsxiaobai14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151172&oldid=151171 5* 03Hsxiaobai 5* (+89) 10
> 1738459873 548406 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hsxiaobai/Sandbox14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151173 5* 03Hsxiaobai 5* (+78) 10Created page with "'''Bold text''' ''Italic text'' [https://github.com A external link to Github]"
> 1738459936 679943 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hsxiaobai/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151174&oldid=151173 5* 03Hsxiaobai 5* (+8) 10
> 1738460044 910086 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hsxiaobai/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151175&oldid=151174 5* 03Hsxiaobai 5* (+86) 10
> 1738460076 203652 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hsxiaobai/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151176&oldid=151175 5* 03Hsxiaobai 5* (-6) 10
> 1738460169 393666 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hsxiaobai/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151177&oldid=151176 5* 03Hsxiaobai 5* (+6) 10
> 1738460312 925387 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hsxiaobai/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151178&oldid=151177 5* 03Hsxiaobai 5* (+1) 10
> 1738460777 326065 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Onesharp14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151179&oldid=151168 5* 03Jburns22 5* (-4) 10
> 1738461032 87265 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hsxiaobai14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151180&oldid=151172 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+1) 10add line break
> 1738461441 887703 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfffffuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151181 5* 03Hsxiaobai 5* (+23) 10Created page with "[[:Category:Languages]]"
> 1738461475 933933 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfffffuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151182&oldid=151181 5* 03Hsxiaobai 5* (-1) 10
< 1738461585 464446 :Artea!~Lufia@artea.pt QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
> 1738461744 570451 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151183&oldid=151120 5* 03None1 5* (+20) 10/* Simple Example */
< 1738461862 457683 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1738461917 37756 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`learn The password of the month is 99.964%
< 1738461924 330406 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Relearned 'password': The password of the month is 99.964%
> 1738462002 927544 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hsxiaobai14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151184&oldid=151180 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1225) 10
> 1738462255 899594 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151185&oldid=151170 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+540) 10/* Implementation Notes */
< 1738462350 558532 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :found a bug in Fungeball 1.0b0
< 1738462359 815339 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :a big one
< 1738462430 735419 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :gotta patch it
< 1738462847 153618 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, Fungeball may be Turing-complete, even though Befunge-93 isn't
< 1738462865 905498 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think you can use the multiple threads' stacks as a way to store unlimited amount of data, and the playfield for them to communicate with each other
< 1738462970 332132 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, it's fairly easy to implement The Waterfall Model in that – you use one thread for each waterclock plus a separate control thread that tells the other threads when to run (by changing >< infinite loops into >> to release the thread) – it'd be TC even if there were no timing guarantees
< 1738463015 661327 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lykaina: you should probably clarify whether q and @ quit the entire program or the current thread
< 1738463154 221909 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :this needs a memory model
< 1738463200 629208 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: isn't it just shared playfield and thread-specific stacks?
> 1738463311 220791 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151186&oldid=151185 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+31) 10Updated url
< 1738463385 983291 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well you still need something like g and p of all threads being sequenceable and respecting their thread's order of operations (to start at the strong end) don't you
< 1738463442 708889 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :what's a "cycle"
< 1738463588 33267 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess that means threads synchronize after every operation?
< 1738463662 988480 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The thing is, I feel that I'm reading between the lines to try to figure that out so it's grossly underspecified.
> 1738463697 401730 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151187&oldid=151186 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+225) 10/* Instructions */ Clarified q and @
< 1738463784 69480 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Not that it'll matter for TC-ness; you can make two threads manage a stack each to get a Turing machine. Or a counter, which IIUC is essentially what you're suggesting for TWM
< 1738463900 906925 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right – using the stack as a stack gets you StackFlow rather than The Waterfall Model, but why bother with the excess complexity (except for performance reasons, I guess)
< 1738463902 945825 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lykaina: Anyway. Assuming lockstep execution, what do you want to happen if two threads write or write and read the same location?
< 1738463935 702030 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm assuming a sequentially consistent model, due to the assumed lockstep execution
< 1738463938 570950 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: The only reason is working closer to traditional computability theory (two stacks = one tape)
< 1738463954 200866 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, two counters = four counters = two stacks = one tape
< 1738463962 208158 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure
< 1738463972 601957 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :assuming you have a state machine for control flow in both cases
< 1738463981 948620 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :getting rid of that state machine has been one of my main innovations in TCness proving
< 1738463987 263910 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't care. When I first read what you wrote I thought you're creating an unbounded horde of threads.
< 1738464000 470375 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, I see
< 1738464001 522275 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which would have severe issues.
< 1738464016 291719 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that needs better synchronisation requirements for TCness, I thiink
< 1738464062 732371 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, if you have a gate that lets just one thread through, it's probably doable (although even then it seems nontrivial)
< 1738464098 388987 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway. I still feel that it's worth saying something about simultaneous writes and reads... having them crash the program (undefined behavior) is an option of course.
< 1738464134 428841 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :let's say we have a fungeoid with normal <>^v# IP movement commands, a thread split command, and a door that can be opened (maybe by hitting it from the side) that lets one thread through then closes
< 1738464185 220274 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. I was looking for something that would synchronize threads in that way, and there's nothing. :)
> 1738464187 671300 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151188&oldid=151187 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+261) 10/* Threading */ Added more about threading.
< 1738464197 546592 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :assuming randomly ordered sequentially consistent execution, and no stacks/values on the threads, I think that probably *isn't* enough but am not totally sure
< 1738464223 580889 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: fwiw, with threaded esolangs, I typically assume alternating lockstep execution (i.e. there is one command run from thread 0, then one command from thread 1, etc.)
< 1738464230 12493 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which doesn't have any trouble with simultaneous actions
< 1738464236 259462 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lykaina: thanks. "in series" -- I assume the order is unspecified though?
< 1738464246 710624 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :correct
< 1738464249 416400 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :cool
< 1738464519 739814 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :each tread has it's own stack
< 1738464525 910702 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :*thread
< 1738464579 492764 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Somehow I got that. I guess that's because that matches the standard notion of threads in mainstream OSs.
< 1738464584 431044 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, so the model I just discussed is sub-TC because if you removed a thread mid-program-execution, the program would have no reliable way to determine that you had done that – any code that might check for that might instead have been running continuously without the removed thread running
< 1738464637 859330 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :they are not actual threads
< 1738464638 74117 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thus, the program would have to be written in such a way that removing any subset of threads would cause it to enter an infinite loop, which effectively gives it only finite data storage
< 1738464687 690873 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :they are 'threads'.
< 1738464688 680614 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it reminds me of unordered Fractran (and may in fact actually be equivalent)
< 1738464825 918524 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, yes, this trivially compiles into unordered Fractran and thus can't be TC – and the compilation still works even if the threads can carry values, as long as they have only finite storage
< 1738464907 165577 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(unordered Fractran is a bounded-storage machine – it can implement regular Fractran given some hardcoded limit on how high each factor can go, but can't handle unlimited storage)
< 1738464943 321616 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :stacks have no max length yet
< 1738464973 463178 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lykaina: So I'd like to suggest two minor clarifications. 1) say "with a copy of its parent's thread's stack" instead of "the same stack as its parent thread" to avoid possible confusion about sharing, and 2) add "in some unspecified order" after "in series".
< 1738465019 659143 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: doing that now
> 1738465319 175048 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151189&oldid=151188 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+18) 10/* Implementation Notes */ made the edits to the threading section that were recommended to me.
< 1738465429 649954 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :do i need to add a full command list or let people reference the Befunge-93 list on the wiki?
< 1738465446 515393 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I actually prefer the reference
< 1738465482 386376 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, the way it is now?
< 1738465504 118400 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The downside of making a copy is that it means you have to check for differences if you want to be really sure about semantics.)
< 1738465504 352149 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1738465534 131802 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 JOIN #esolangs op_4 :op_4
< 1738465576 90419 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah the way it's now is good, in my opinion.
< 1738465609 508828 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe if the reference was three levels deep rather than one I'd change my mind? I don't know.
< 1738465667 435082 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm.
< 1738465723 517639 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you downloaded 1.0b0, you need to replace it with 1.0b1.
< 1738465737 280707 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I just realized that you reference Funge-98 and I never followed *that* link.
< 1738465791 654200 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1738465810 42731 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(That's a me problem.)
< 1738465929 350759 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :Fungeball is backwards compatible with Befunge-93, but not forwards compatible with Funge-98.
< 1738465977 327404 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ugh, do the Funge-98 threads share a stack? This IP list description is tricky.
< 1738465993 368286 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :i don't know
< 1738466247 826998 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"When a child IP is borne unto Funge-Space thus, its location, storage offset, and stack are all copied verbatim from the parent IP's." https://codeberg.org/catseye/Funge-98/src/branch/master/doc/funge98.markdown#user-content-concurrent-funge-98
< 1738466270 1250 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So the wiki section is incomplete, good to know.
< 1738466296 911974 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Or maybe I'd have to cross-reference what exactly an IP is.)
> 1738466425 627002 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151190&oldid=151189 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+244) 10/* Implementation Notes */ added notes about compatibility.
< 1738466490 353794 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :Fungeball doesn't have a storage offset
< 1738466568 447660 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's a Funge-98 thing
< 1738466683 895554 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lykaina: I got that :)
< 1738466707 72455 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :Each Fungeball thread has a stack, a location, a direction, and an indicator for whether String Mode is active.
< 1738466716 613026 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :At that point I was looking for clarification about what Funge-98 does with the stack.
< 1738466730 163551 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Fungeball is clear about that.
< 1738466741 965423 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(And different which is fine.)
< 1738466872 321047 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, does it actually only copy the top stack of the stack stack (in Concurrent Funge-98)?
< 1738466899 531454 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :A sentence elsewhere in the spec: "In the case of Funge-98, however, /the stack/ refers to the topmost stack on the stack stack."
< 1738466927 302168 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :i couldn't understand the stack stack of Funge-98
< 1738467079 199059 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: for sake of sanity I'd assume that this particular "stack" that's copied means the full stack stack.
< 1738467251 155448 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :That seems to be what cfunge does, duplicates the entire stack stack.
< 1738467278 457038 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's just that, the other part seems to be very... definition-y, for /the stack/.
< 1738467290 3649 :Artea!~Lufia@artea.pt JOIN #esolangs Artea :Artea ElFo
< 1738467307 132741 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it would be interesting to know in which order these sections were added
< 1738467396 366515 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(They could be independent additions? And then this interaction between them was missed... I don't know!)
< 1738467461 157078 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I really don't know how many cooks Funge-98 had.
< 1738467527 159297 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1738467543 984963 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina JOIN #esolangs Lykaina :Lykaina Wolfe
< 1738467544 558265 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not a huge fan of how Funge-98 combines the stack stack operations with the storage offset ones.
< 1738467623 864437 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think fungot uses anything except the topmost stack.
< 1738467624 24417 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: how do you know who taht was? is
< 1738467678 476824 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm I didn't fancy "taht" being common enough to make it into the dictionary.
< 1738467708 271277 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`"
< 1738467711 458105 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :1/1:808)  The reason it isn't more popular is because I wrote it today. \ 851) [on Diplomacy]  man, that doesn't even mention greece at all [...]  oh, this is about a game, not world war i.
< 1738467795 397643 :SGautam!uid286066@id-286066.ilkley.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1738467825 998244 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1738467962 946342 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina JOIN #esolangs Lykaina :Lykaina Wolfe
< 1738467980 75811 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :fsck
< 1738467992 498211 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :my router just died
< 1738468042 381732 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :connected via phone wifi
< 1738468061 502407 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fun :/
< 1738468292 376872 :Lykaina_!~lykaina@user/lykaina JOIN #esolangs Lykaina :Lykaina Wolfe
< 1738468331 221115 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina QUIT :Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by Lykaina_))
< 1738468341 758309 :Lykaina_!~lykaina@user/lykaina NICK :Lykaina
< 1738468566 43026 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :ugh
< 1738469043 527546 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hm. So threads can't communicate after spawning? It would seem to be the same sort of non-determinism as when simulating automata, where each different thread is essentially a separate subinterpreter that doesn't know about the others.
< 1738469064 463198 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's shared storage
< 1738469082 59271 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :shared playfield
< 1738469133 280597 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sorry, forgive my extreme weakness with Befunge. I thought that the playfield was immutable? Are `g` and `p` the shared storage? Shared stack?
< 1738469166 838778 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :g and p access the playfield
< 1738469240 298100 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Huh, okay. Well, then ais523's point about memory models is still relevant. Suppose that we have threads X and Y. During a single cycle, suppose X executes before Y; X does a write and then Y does a read. Does Y always read what X wrote?
< 1738469256 909904 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :IOW what does the playfield look like *during* a cycle?
< 1738469261 940427 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, it's been clarified.
< 1738469269 291032 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(And that wasn't ais523 :P)
< 1738469309 384222 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Operations are sequentialized.
< 1738469352 505448 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, I misread, sorry. int-e, you're entirely correct. But even with sequential threading, it's not clear whether access to the playfield is uncached, and the current phrasing even warns against doing multiple `p` per cycle.
< 1738469401 327657 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well that's just because you won't know which one of them "sticks"
< 1738469403 641828 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION shrugs

< 1738469485 420744 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I believe they're not threads but 'threads' for a reason... the resulting execution is single-threaded and you don't need a memory model for that, or rather, there's a standard memory model for that where all writes are visible to future reads but not past ones..
< 1738469512 446173 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :totally ordered memory or whatever the proper terminology is
< 1738469562 744722 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, with LWW ("last write wins").
< 1738469631 306434 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :also a read concurrent with writes will see the original value or one of the values written
< 1738469637 987230 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but you don't know which
< 1738469838 979410 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : Hmm I didn't fancy "taht" being common enough to make it into the dictionary. ← my list of "all words that appear anywhere in Google Ngrams, sorted by frequency" has it at #494442, appearing 5584 times ("that" is at #12, appearing 3870260345 times) – note that the first entry is the empty string, so you might want to subtract 1 from the positions
< 1738469880 627436 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :three billion different uses of the word "that" is hard to comprehend, even though it is a very common word
< 1738469985 615368 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that includes "flathat", doesn't it :)
< 1738469997 458547 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(no I don't think that explains the high number)
< 1738470012 491633 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: no, compound words and superstrings have separate entries
< 1738470031 289242 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, "flathat" did not appear often enough to make the list
< 1738470036 664851 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So it's not n-gram frequency?
< 1738470055 969064 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's 1-gram frequency
< 1738470070 829243 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh
< 1738470074 321100 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I just downloaded all the 1gram data from Google Ngrams and added it together
< 1738470093 412254 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry, I assumed letter-based, not word-based frequencies
< 1738470111 62112 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that'd be ngraphs rater than ngrams, wouldn't it?
< 1738470130 75736 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know.
< 1738470151 508037 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(It's a distinction I've never made)
< 1738470206 234063 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :My exposure to this is a bit weird... coming from Markov chains and data compression with no strong linguistic connection.
< 1738470230 498902 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the reason I got hold of the data was to inform the creation of compression algorithms, especially for golfing languages
< 1738470255 798429 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I realised that "every word in Google Ngrams apart from likely OCR errors" would make for a good dictionary to use for compressed strings
< 1738470276 459377 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :especially as it has things like foreign words in there, just at lower frequency
< 1738470296 704311 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :FWIW, Wikipedia says "An n-gram is a sequence of n adjacent symbols in particular order." Which matches my understanding... you have to agree on a set of symbols (and if you assume it you can get it wrong)
< 1738470314 436161 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It even says that using whole words is rare ;-)
< 1738470623 241667 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fair enough
< 1738470634 940417 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably on letters, both "n-gram" and "n-graph" are correct, in that case
< 1738470760 451226 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1738470811 365004 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I believe I've never heard the term "n-graph" for this.
< 1738470825 889950 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, "digraph" and "trigraph" are commonly used
< 1738470846 568522 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, by following the usual rules, the general term would be "polygraph" which already means something else
< 1738470862 305851 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :a digraph is a directed graph... scnr
< 1738470888 707187 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean the terminology makes sense
< 1738470973 685757 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hehehe, more confusion: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0012365X88902282
< 1738473325 641704 :Guest25!~Guest25@2600:1000:b061:9a58:11d4:37cd:4a90:28c3 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Guest25
< 1738473340 198716 :Guest25!~Guest25@2600:1000:b061:9a58:11d4:37cd:4a90:28c3 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1738474198 231421 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :night
< 1738474210 361967 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1738474639 492580 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1738474651 344440 :dbohdan!~dbohdan@user/dbohdan QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3.1 - https://znc.in
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< 1738474669 490577 :dbohdan!~dbohdan@user/dbohdan JOIN #esolangs dbohdan :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1738474685 385997 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net JOIN #esolangs m5zs7k :m5zs7k
< 1738475709 915015 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi JOIN #esolangs HackEso :HackEso
< 1738475785 947763 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina JOIN #esolangs Lykaina :Lykaina Wolfe
< 1738475876 756778 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :wifi clearly works again
< 1738475894 477299 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :morning? ;-)
< 1738475951 667762 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(FWIW I'd probably play with the router too instead of going to bed.)
< 1738476066 195457 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :i made variants of both the befunge-93 and the fungeball interpreters that use print() and input() instead of opening file streams.
< 1738476133 545063 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :course, with those, execution pauses on input...
< 1738476310 42983 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :they were made for micropython, not cpython
< 1738476385 231448 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :i have them on my new Pico 2 W
< 1738478494 362864 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
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> 1738480483 833646 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfffffuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151191&oldid=151182 5* 03Hsxiaobai 5* (+939) 10
> 1738481366 483231 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/bf self interpreter14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151192&oldid=151156 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+101) 10
> 1738481367 151861 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/bf self interpreter14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151193&oldid=151192 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+0) 10Replaced content with "Obfuscating dbfi is definitely not a good idea! ~~~~"
> 1738481491 44081 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0725 bytes o:14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151194&oldid=143452 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-2) 10/* python intepreter */ the interpreter doesn't like the unnecessary semicolons
> 1738481531 910413 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0725 bytes o:14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151195&oldid=151194 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+2) 10/* python intepreter */  nvn
> 1738482403 941334 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151196&oldid=151149 5* 03Hsxiaobai 5* (+20) 10/* B */
> 1738487069 89280 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfffffuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151197&oldid=151191 5* 03Hsxiaobai 5* (+27) 10
< 1738487703 470081 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lykaina: opening? the standard streams are open already, and python has its io wrappers open to them already by default.
< 1738488010 501041 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523, int-e: I have considered the question of inter-thread memory model for multi-threaded Consumer Society. I concluded that I won't define it, whoever makes a multi-threading extension can figure it out, all I need to define is one very simple library function that allows me to write thread-safe code, where that library function is trivial to implement in single-threaded consumer society (it's 
< 1738488016 508626 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :basically a no-op), and if someone implements multi-threaded Consumer Society then it won't be hard for them to implement this function as a built-in in their interpreter.
< 1738488059 775528 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Whoever wants a multi-threaded Consumer Society will have to define the actual memory model, some inter-thread synchronization functions, and probably a way to create threads.
< 1738488270 972479 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(You could have something low-level where you can't create threads, you have a fixed number of threads, and you just need a way to initialize them so they start executing your code.)
< 1738488286 211357 :chomwitt!~alex@2a02:587:7a26:9800:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd JOIN #esolangs chomwitt :realname
< 1738488323 649547 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But this is easier than this befunge-variant because Consumer Society is already Turing-complete in a single thread.
< 1738488340 521281 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(In theory, obviously; a practical implementation will have a memory limit.)
< 1738488541 679639 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess my view on memory limits is along the lines of "my interpreter is written in a theoretically TC language and would define a Turing-complete language if run in an implementation of the outside language that actually implemented that language correctly"
< 1738488576 479476 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I struggled so much with whether or not to add -Mbigint to my Perl implementation of Three Star Programmer and the I/D machine
< 1738488610 388832 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the point being that the memory is formed entirely of addresses, so there's no reason to use a bigint because the total amount of memory used will overflow before the value in any particular cell of it does)
< 1738488722 844526 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :For that you'll want a bigint implementation that's more efficient in the special case when most of your numbers are fixints. In this case you'd use fixints but when you incrememnt a cell you check if it's (close to) overflowing and replace it with a bigint if it is.
< 1738488744 812448 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The bigint module won't do that.
< 1738488788 791615 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(There's also a semantic difference in that Math::Bigint's methods won't be available for fixints, but that shouldn't be a problem for your applications.)
< 1738488789 858576 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: so in the I/D machine, once you increment a cell, you can't leave that cell without dereferencing it
< 1738488809 690844 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, but you can dereference it twice to get to zero again
< 1738488818 400226 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and thus any value overflow necessarily also indicates a memory overflow, because Perl scalars are large enough to hold all memory addresses
< 1738488842 170527 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: ah, so your idea is to treat the values above the memory space as all zero unless you try to increment them, to save memory
< 1738488854 472152 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for I/D machine yes
< 1738488872 249503 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess this is one of those cases where an implementation really wants to be an optimising decompiler, so that it can run the program more efficiently in time and space
< 1738488929 268341 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, if you're not optimizing then you can use 64-bit fixints, they won't have time to overflow if you only increment them by small numbers
< 1738488946 882683 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it would be pointless to have the upgrade to bigints
< 1738489038 730266 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh right, that optimisation
< 1738489042 428452 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I really want to formalise it some day
< 1738489061 939117 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is something that could potentially make a lot of programs in safe languages more efficient, but it is hard to formalise the situations under which it's sound
< 1738489120 9117 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one thing I noticed in Rust is that the overflow check on Rc is actually pretty slow; and, if Rcs were unleakable, it would be impossible for it to ever matter (because you'd run out of memory due to it being full of Rcs before the counter would overflow)
< 1738489147 519140 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it might be possible to get a decent performance boost by optimising it out, but Rust has a rule that allows anything to leak, and creating and leaking Rcs in a loop would be able to overflow it on 32-bit systems
< 1738489202 586331 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, that's two slightly different cases, one where you guarantee no overflow by incrementing a counter only by 1 and only from a single thread; the other where the reference count counts distinct real references from other objects and that's why it can't overflow
< 1738489226 752413 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait, you mean Rc and not Arc?
< 1738489237 736833 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it's incremented from single-thread only
< 1738489240 721966 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, either, I'm just more used to Rc
< 1738489258 405697 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, I guess it doesn't make a difference
< 1738489267 747778 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's rare for me to want to access refcounted things from multiple threads at once, multithreading only really gives significant savings if there's no contention
< 1738489284 864251 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because it's a single atomic reference count value, not multiple values incremented separately and then added together
< 1738489320 882092 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yep
< 1738489333 493584 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the savings would be bigger for arc, I think
< 1738489381 519884 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you have a function that clones and then drops an arc, it has to read and test the refcount in order to preserve the panic behaviour when the refcount is almost maxed out, so it can't optimise out the refcount changes
< 1738489402 197049 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see
< 1738489402 368850 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and atomic adjusting of memory is actually really slow by CPU instruction standards, it's somewhere around 40 arithmetic instructions IIRC on modern processors
> 1738489448 397445 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Postrado14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151198&oldid=150270 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+270) 10/* Truth-machine */
< 1738489449 20497 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :when relying on the "this *can't* overflow" model, you can just leave the refcount alone as long as you have at least one strong reference to ensure that changes in other threads can't set the value to 0
< 1738489461 730448 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :isn't that because it has to access main memory or L3 cache, can't be done locally in the L2 cache, and that's slow even if not atomic?
< 1738489475 676938 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Rc has a "number of strong references" method; I'm not sure whether Arc does too; those methods would hae to be removed for this optimistion to work)
< 1738489518 38956 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think ideally you'd want to change that to a method that tells you if the strong reference count is exactly 1
> 1738489526 721637 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Postrado14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151199&oldid=151198 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+8) 10/* With functions */
> 1738489555 591681 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Postrado14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151200&oldid=151199 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+2) 10/* With functions */
> 1738489601 836349 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfffffuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151201&oldid=151197 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+0) 10/* Syntax */
< 1738489623 441391 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I haven't realized that rust had this problem because I was thinking of reference counts mostly in the context of a high-level language where, although you might be able to leak a refernece, you can do so only if the object that holds the reference actually consumes memory
< 1738489638 254759 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so leaking doesn't make it much easier to overflow the reference count
< 1738489940 267524 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess this would be a problem with C++'s shared_ptr too
> 1738489968 82976 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Queue-based esolang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151202&oldid=151147 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+0) 10/* See also */  oops
< 1738489988 712309 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or not because maybe there you don't need to insist on always panicing on overflow
< 1738490772 536350 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though I also wasn't thinking much about eliding overflow checks. more like keeping overflow checks but allowing to panic when the counter overflows. eg. suppose I have a simulation videogame that is not distributed, the game state is computed on a single core of a single server (there may still be multiple players on the network with their machines rendering UI separately, that doesn't matter). in the 
< 1738490778 561558 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :game state sometimes an object is created. then I'm allowed to just use a single 63-bit counter that I increment whenever an object is created, and use that counter as the unique ID of the object that I use in representation. then I don't have to handle that counter overflowing, even if objecs can be destroyed and the game state can be saved and later loaded.
< 1738490796 894533 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that can simplify the code even if I do check for overflow, because handling the overflow could be harder to implement.
< 1738490833 931384 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :obviously this isn't always how you want to assign IDs, sometimes you want them to be a 32-bit index into an array for example, but sometimes the single counter can be useful.
< 1738490886 400453 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's useful if you want to make sure that an object id isn't ever reused, so a weak reference can just be an object id.
< 1738490961 269865 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or the weak reference can be a pointer that you can safely dereference even if it's stale (eg. an array index) plus the object id, and you store the object id in the representation of the object, when you dereference you check if the object the pointer points to is alive and that the object id matches and if it does then the weak pointer is still alive.
< 1738491222 732325 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :another case is if I'm caching something in every object, and sometimes I do a change that means I have to invalidate the cache in all objects, and when I access the cached value I need to know if it's up to date, then I can have a single global invalidate counter whose value I store with the cache, and since that invalidate counter is never reused this works
< 1738491234 558516 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a value for the invalidate counter is never reused
< 1738492010 739221 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1738492214 708162 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User-webchat:37962 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User_webchat :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1738492231 915361 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
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> 1738492685 963696 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Syuparn 5*  10New user account
< 1738492702 80209 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yes, I like those use-cases too; it would be great to have some way a compiler could prove they were safe
< 1738492718 749416 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably along the lines of some sort of "this counts as a tick" annotation and a global limit for how many ticks there could be
< 1738493076 480512 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you could have the programmer annotate with a specific type, a 64-bit integer that you can only set to zero or increment by one or convert to a normal integer
< 1738493083 161109 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or clone
< 1738493137 957674 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess that would help the programmer, not the compiler
< 1738493160 124588 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for the compiler we already have an addition that's undefined behavior if it overflows
> 1738493317 232353 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151203&oldid=151159 5* 03Syuparn 5* (+172) 10
> 1738493966 181908 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0725 bytes o:14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151204&oldid=151195 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+138) 10
< 1738493969 481264 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: so the issue here is that we're talking about an "inherently unsound optimisation" in that it always changes the semantics of the program, by adding a time limit
< 1738493983 808632 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so we need to make sure that the time limit is actually not going to be a problem in the actual application
> 1738494057 62926 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:25 bytes o:14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151205&oldid=147860 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+886) 10/* sqrt(25) bytes o: */ new section
< 1738494100 959892 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's the extreme ultrafinitist approach to programming
< 1738494172 243743 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
> 1738494453 282158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151206&oldid=128515 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+229) 10
< 1738494486 870079 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: so my main concern is with things like «for _ in 0..1000000000 { x.add_one() }» which the compiler will optimise into a single addition, but then the number can overflow
> 1738494544 345630 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151207&oldid=151133 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+164) 10
> 1738494563 680334 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151208&oldid=151207 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+0) 10
< 1738494714 384580 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I see! so would a specific integer type help with that? it's not easy because the compiler would need to propagate some of the info all the way down to the backend
< 1738494804 810172 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you could do "an addition that can't be optimised" but at least in the Rc example, that's not actually what you want
< 1738494832 288553 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't have a solution to this (and in fact I'm not 100% sure I fully understand nature of the problem)
> 1738494923 921855 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Infinite commands???14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151209&oldid=151125 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+235) 10
> 1738495099 814246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Infinite commands???14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151210&oldid=151209 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+163) 10
< 1738495150 564836 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, you don't just want a black-box addition
> 1738495383 666016 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151211&oldid=147613 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+328) 10
< 1738495395 510429 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's also the cryptographic version of these optimizations, like when you assume that an adversary can't find hash collisions in a 256-bit hash, or if I generate any number of 224-bit long random keys and insert it into a database and replicate the database to any number of my servers and an adversary can query those database servers in parallel then they'll never guess any keys of which I don't 
< 1738495401 518897 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :reveal information (this probably still works with 192 bits)
< 1738495552 609649 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :those sort of optimisations are hard to automatically apply to programs to get "free" performance gains, though
< 1738495567 996125 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :other than, perhaps, the "if we use sufficiently many bits in a random number we'll never generate the same one twice" optimisation
> 1738495596 309803 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07-25 bytes (O o)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151212&oldid=144546 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (-245) 10
< 1738495632 96445 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the one that disturbs me the most is how big an authentication tag you need to validate a message
< 1738495654 126547 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, they're not automatic optimizations for free performance gains
< 1738495697 485694 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but at some point you need to decide what sizes you need, and most of the time it doesn't matter if you use a too large size but sometimes for a large service it can matter
< 1738495782 222280 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :when it comes to cryptography, the problem is that the sizes you need depend on a) your adversaries' brute-forcing performance and b) what breaks in the cryptography they will become aware of through the useful life of the service
< 1738495798 635853 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and both of those are hard to predict, which is why it's usual to rely on very large safety marginsg
< 1738495839 511058 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, the numbers I mentioned only work if the cryptographic primitives that you use don't have weaknesses
> 1738495850 768715 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:-25 bytes (O o)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151213&oldid=144571 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1623) 10
< 1738495864 866690 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and there are multiple different numbers because you have to assume that your adversary may have much more computing power than you do
> 1738495878 692436 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:-25 bytes (O o)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151214&oldid=151213 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1) 10
> 1738496081 782856 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07O()14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151215&oldid=146088 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+143) 10
> 1738496219 84599 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Free Esolang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151216&oldid=151048 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+52) 10
< 1738496598 627592 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1738497319 414319 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cholc14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151217 5* 03Syuparn 5* (+4874) 10Created page with "'''Cholc''' is an esoteric programming language made up of sequences of musical chords.  ==Examples== ===Hello world===   A A A A A A A A A  |: F G E Am :|  F Fm  |: C C C C C C C C A A A B Em :|  C Cm X  |: Db Eb Eb Eb Eb Eb C C C Fm :|  C C X  |: C C#m :|  Cm Cm X X  C 
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> 1738500577 944723 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:25 bytes o:14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151218&oldid=151205 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+338) 10
> 1738501678 287365 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Recursive14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151219&oldid=150854 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+285) 10/* Example programs */ Just realized that this is also a thing Recursive can do
> 1738502255 95206 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Unname479814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151220&oldid=151030 5* 03Unname4798 5* (+2) 10
< 1738502301 469407 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
> 1738502316 772729 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Unname479814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151221&oldid=151220 5* 03Unname4798 5* (-10) 10
> 1738506424 802290 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cholc14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151222&oldid=151217 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (-3) 10
> 1738507178 752624 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PythBrSc14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151223&oldid=144022 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+1) 10
< 1738508992 926809 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1738509256 915312 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[073switchBF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151224&oldid=88530 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-5) 10/* Translator to brainfuck */  sorted variables by type
> 1738509307 198262 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[073switchBF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151225&oldid=151224 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+5) 10/* Translator to brainfuck */  c gets redefined so
> 1738509551 677217 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Postrado14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151226&oldid=151200 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-104) 10/* Commands */
> 1738509615 453642 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Postrado14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151227&oldid=151226 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+11) 10/* Without functions */
> 1738510261 383175 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bitwise Scanner14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151228&oldid=60454 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+183) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the Bitwise Scanner programming language on GitHub and altered the Unimplemented category tag to Implemented.
> 1738510551 874347 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bitwise Scanner14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151229&oldid=151228 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+308) 10Reformatted the instruction listing as a table, introducing the operations' expected arguments.
> 1738511175 731319 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:TheCanon214]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151230&oldid=150403 5* 03TheCanon2 5* (+31) 10
> 1738512324 196619 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151231&oldid=151190 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+46) 10Updated url and version info
> 1738512878 877421 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151232&oldid=151231 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+159) 10/* Threading */ added a little clarification here about I/O being shared.
< 1738515036 374340 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1738515768 327287 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151233&oldid=151232 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+65) 10Updated url and version info, current version is 1.0b3
> 1738515824 985585 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Calculus is fun14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151234&oldid=151139 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+197) 10reply to user "I am islptng"
< 1738516066 582927 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :split the fungeball script file into two: library and wrapper
< 1738516594 114223 :mich181189!sid268336@londonhackspace/mich181189 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1738516605 414540 :mich181189!sid268336@londonhackspace/mich181189 JOIN #esolangs mich181189 :Michael
> 1738516738 364013 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MoreMathRPN14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151235&oldid=151082 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+294) 10Added query command, reorganized to match website
< 1738517611 1066 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :the library is compatible with micropython and cpython
< 1738517627 352416 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :the wrapper is designed for cpython
> 1738519668 554700 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Compiler12o 5*  10New user account
> 1738519984 275005 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151236&oldid=151203 5* 03Compiler12o 5* (+173) 10/* Introductions */
> 1738520004 998214 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151237&oldid=151233 5* 03Lykaina 5* (-41) 10Changed url to match the repository on my personal gitea.
> 1738520074 884395 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07+-14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151238&oldid=98506 5* 03Compiler12o 5* (+3015) 10/* Interpreters */
> 1738520213 731084 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07+-14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151239&oldid=151238 5* 03Compiler12o 5* (-3015) 10/* C++ 20 */
> 1738520264 391615 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07+-14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151240&oldid=151239 5* 03Compiler12o 5* (+3019) 10/* Interpreters */
> 1738520289 391525 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07+-14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151241&oldid=151240 5* 03Compiler12o 5* (-4) 10/* C++ 20 */
> 1738520324 823327 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07+-14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151242&oldid=151241 5* 03Compiler12o 5* (+21) 10/* C++ 20 */
< 1738520607 152759 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungeball has it's own git repository now
< 1738520645 512522 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
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< 1738520727 499323 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1738521262 824457 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good times.
> 1738522039 835788 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07+-14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151243&oldid=151242 5* 03Compiler12o 5* (-3036) 10/* C++ 20 */
> 1738523059 830328 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MoreMathRPN14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151244&oldid=151235 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+208) 10Added breakpoints
> 1738523495 376411 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MoreMathRPN14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151245&oldid=151244 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+90) 10Added error command
> 1738523671 104015 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MoreMathRPN14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151246&oldid=151245 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (-7) 10/* Checks and comparisons */
> 1738524145 812000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MoreMathRPN14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151247&oldid=151246 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+24) 10Changed 2nd sentence
> 1738524752 149309 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Funciton14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151248&oldid=151079 5* 03Timwi 5* (+71) 10sort function
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< 1738526418 459319 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi Sgeo
> 1738528001 595116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151249&oldid=151237 5* 03Lykaina 5* (-7) 10Updating url due to moving public repo to GitHub
< 1738528508 685177 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi Lykaina 
< 1738528603 179984 :chomwitt!~alex@2a02:587:7a26:9800:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1738529091 334776 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :copied the repo from my private gitea to github
> 1738529528 489216 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[076 bytes of useless element14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151250&oldid=149153 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-60) 10/* Interpreters */
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< 1738531611 181977 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been playing Redactle again recently, at https://redactle.net/ , in case anyone's interested
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> 1738534452 823848 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151251&oldid=151249 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+0) 10Changed a url from the GitHub Repository to the GitHub Pages site.
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> 1738536723 737228 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151252&oldid=151251 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+173) 10/* Versions */ Adding distinction between GitHub Versions and Pre-GitHub Versions
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> 1738539516 357587 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[076 bytes of useless element14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151253&oldid=151250 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+203) 10/* Interpreters */
< 1738540396 267473 :supercode!~supercode@user/supercode JOIN #esolangs supercode :[https://web.libera.chat] supercode
> 1738540492 921929 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fun Video Game14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151254&oldid=135671 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+149) 10MoreMathRPN example
< 1738540707 493018 :molson_!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-BE34-A493-718E-A21C-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
< 1738540929 526426 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-8D58-8776-9CE3-CAF5-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1738540931 670112 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fun Video Game14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151255&oldid=151254 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+9) 10Alphabetized implementations
< 1738540964 486683 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1738541169 831104 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
< 1738542480 109673 :supercode!~supercode@user/supercode QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1738544214 859764 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1738544239 172811 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1738547697 788481 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1738550658 195370 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151256&oldid=151252 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+276) 10/* Hello, World! */ added a new example
< 1738551333 556306 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :the second hello world example on the Fungeball page shows how much timing must be wasted so that the response is correct.
< 1738551437 536394 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, wasted isn't the right word
< 1738551516 549274 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :any fewer 'z's or arrows and the output is nonsense
> 1738551542 14346 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:25 bytes o:14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151257&oldid=151218 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+926) 10
> 1738551569 37364 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:25 bytes o:14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151258&oldid=151257 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+12) 10
> 1738552360 777368 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07-25 bytes (O o)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151259&oldid=151212 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+421) 10
> 1738552714 493795 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Collabi14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151260&oldid=138037 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+332) 10
> 1738554164 27826 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151261&oldid=151256 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+137) 10/* Hello, World! */ 'rephrased' my point in the second example with a third example.
< 1738554374 22740 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
> 1738554616 425456 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ting Vit/Examples14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151262 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+2939) 10Created page with "{{Back|Ting Vit}}  Here are some example for Ting Vit.  == Hello, world! ==  In "Xin cho, th gii!".  == A+B Problem ==  Nhp hai s nguyn t ngi dng, sau  in tng ca chng.  == Quine ==  In m ngun ca chng trnh ny. UINEGIXNGAEIUgxiue giu giuXGPIUAXIUGXIUp ghse
> 1738554693 11722 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ting Vit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151263&oldid=148565 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+146) 10
< 1738555147 576488 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net JOIN #esolangs m5zs7k :m5zs7k
< 1738555865 733213 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :should take 56 cycles from the start of 'thread' 2 for 'thread' 1 to end. it should then be safe for 'thread' 2 to enter the output loop. However, it instead takes 65 cycles before output loop for the correct output to appear from 'thread' 2.
< 1738556018 29467 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
> 1738556050 893490 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:MoreMathRPN14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151264 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+388) 10Created discussion page
< 1738556121 381643 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I reasoned the existence of a bug. My guess is that the String Mode is not implemented correctly.
< 1738557116 181942 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net JOIN #esolangs m5zs7k :m5zs7k
> 1738557179 151695 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GeoFuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151265 5* 03None1 5* (+1380) 10Created page with "{{lang|a=User:None1|i=[[PoeticFuck]]}}  What a program does only depends on where you are and the length of the program. ==Translation== GeoFuck first takes your exact latitude and longitude as a pair of real numbers (north and east are positive, south and west are negati
> 1738557205 939113 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151266&oldid=151196 5* 03None1 5* (+14) 10/* G */
> 1738557257 149385 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151267&oldid=151028 5* 03None1 5* (+64) 10/* My Esolangs */
> 1738557362 679560 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GeoFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151268&oldid=151265 5* 03None1 5* (+130) 10/* Translation */
> 1738557411 729022 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GeoFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151269&oldid=151268 5* 03None1 5* (+4) 10/* Translation */
> 1738557688 747644 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfffffuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151270&oldid=151201 5* 03Hsxiaobai 5* (+31) 10
< 1738559140 520842 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
> 1738559575 848589 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfffffuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151271&oldid=151270 5* 03Hsxiaobai 5* (+9) 10
< 1738559739 332450 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net JOIN #esolangs m5zs7k :m5zs7k
> 1738559785 868087 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfffffuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151272&oldid=151271 5* 03Hsxiaobai 5* (+59) 10
> 1738561943 649648 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151273&oldid=151261 5* 03Lykaina 5* (-99) 10Fixed a big bug, so updated examples and added v1.0-beta4 to version history.
< 1738563117 477861 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :OMG. That bug made no sense.
< 1738563752 736017 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :night
< 1738563760 493140 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina QUIT :Quit: Leaving
> 1738567002 416612 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Frackit14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151274 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+673) 10Created page with "Frackit is an esolang created by islptng. It operates on fractions. It has a stack.  == Commands == {|class=wikitable ! Command !! Meaning |- | #n || push(n) (n is a positive integer) |- | / || push(1/pop()) |- | ! || pop() |- | < || insert(0,pop()) |-
< 1738568645 940841 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
> 1738569226 63210 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151275&oldid=151075 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+35) 10/* My esolangs */
< 1738571174 992360 :craigo_!~craigo@180-150-37-38.b49625.bne.nbn.aussiebb.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1738571367 938316 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1738571578 4346 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1738573197 433569 :chomwitt!~alex@2a02:587:7a26:9800:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd JOIN #esolangs chomwitt :realname
< 1738573259 989315 :chomwitt!~alex@2a02:587:7a26:9800:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1738573998 482865 :esolangs!~esolangs@techne.zem.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1738574037 61946 :esolangs!~esolangs@techne.zem.fi JOIN #esolangs esolangs :esolangs.org
< 1738574037 193004 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services.libera.chat MODE #esolangs +v :esolangs
< 1738574061 494013 :riv!river@tilde.team/user/river QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1738574131 485003 :riv!river@tilde.team/user/river JOIN #esolangs river :My real name
> 1738574366 655588 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151276&oldid=149610 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+124) 10/* why am i here */ new section
> 1738575035 717566 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Frackit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151277&oldid=151274 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+982) 10interpreter
> 1738575557 221163 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Frackit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151278&oldid=151277 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+104) 10
> 1738575783 753670 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Frackit14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151279 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+205) 10Created Talk:Frackit
> 1738576131 424429 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Frackit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151280&oldid=151278 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+28) 10/* Commands */
> 1738576533 793132 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07File:MoreMathLogo.png14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151281&oldid=149221 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+43) 10Changed description
> 1738577011 520961 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03ClearLimediWater 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:20250128.png10]]"
> 1738577106 413318 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:ClearLimediWater14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151283&oldid=150396 5* 03ClearLimediWater 5* (-1390) 10
< 1738577128 886901 :SGautam!uid286066@id-286066.ilkley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs SGautam :Siddharth Gautam
> 1738577606 859742 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Frackit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151284&oldid=151280 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+57) 10
> 1738577806 91689 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Frackit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151285&oldid=151279 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+586) 10
> 1738578385 696939 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Nice14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151286&oldid=148733 5* 03UrnEn 5* (+231) 10
> 1738579030 601199 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Frackit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151287&oldid=151284 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+12) 10/* Interpreter */
< 1738579723 692213 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Excess Flood
< 1738579824 521643 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1738580036 845694 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Frackit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151288&oldid=151287 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+76) 10
> 1738580298 949465 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Unary14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151289&oldid=113702 5* 03UrnEn 5* (+272) 10
> 1738580481 462709 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Befunge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151290&oldid=151045 5* 03B jonas 5* (+100) 10/* Instructions */
< 1738581190 843998 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`"
< 1738581195 592513 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :1/1:351)  Sanity is insufficient by itself. Many other things are also important. \ 2)  Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened...   More practice is in order.
> 1738581456 196944 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Frackit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151291&oldid=151288 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+33) 10
> 1738581598 201387 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AnyGolf14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151292&oldid=151132 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+4) 10
> 1738582057 279184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151293&oldid=140746 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+557) 10
> 1738582233 677558 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Vague14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151294&oldid=137325 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+54) 10
> 1738582346 995732 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Vaguest14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151295&oldid=136515 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+840) 10
> 1738582651 955823 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151296&oldid=150867 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1157) 10/* Category: Collaborative programming language */ new section
> 1738583814 36205 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151297&oldid=151061 5* 03UrnEn 5* (+417) 10
< 1738584158 903109 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1738584340 899075 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
> 1738585149 168962 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151298&oldid=151276 5* 03UrnEn 5* (+123) 10/* why am i here */
> 1738585854 741647 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151299&oldid=151136 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+904) 10/* Do you want to create a programming language with me? */ new section
> 1738585978 963612 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151300&oldid=151297 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+953) 10
> 1738586063 428878 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Vaguest14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151301&oldid=136493 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+59) 10
> 1738586190 119631 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Vaguest14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151302&oldid=151301 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+23) 10
< 1738586361 279267 :SGautam!uid286066@id-286066.ilkley.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
> 1738586471 83658 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dig straight down like an idiot14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151303&oldid=75626 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+189) 10
> 1738586630 944937 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EA Script, It's in the code.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151304&oldid=141116 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+83) 10
> 1738586837 44673 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Cycwin14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151305 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+606) 10Created page with " ~~~~"
> 1738586851 38768 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Cycwin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151306&oldid=151305 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-9) 10
> 1738587613 545362 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Ting Vit14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151307&oldid=141935 5* 03UrnEn 5* (+168) 10
> 1738588064 405912 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Frackit14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151308&oldid=151291 5* 03UrnEn 5* (+170) 10/* Examples */
> 1738589276 876475 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:16 bytes :P14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151309&oldid=141258 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+26) 10/* 5 bytes :P */ new section
> 1738589393 317830 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:1 byte :514]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151310 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+890) 10/* All APLWSI interpreters are 1 byte :5 interpreters. */ new section
> 1738589580 188335 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151311&oldid=151027 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+172) 10
< 1738589744 169527 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
> 1738590439 791335 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151312&oldid=149397 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+102) 10
> 1738590803 59004 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Magnogen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151313&oldid=89373 5* 03Magnogen 5* (-69) 10remove reddit and add other sites
> 1738591848 572798 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Frackit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151314&oldid=151308 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+212) 10
< 1738594578 886906 :Lymee!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe JOIN #esolangs Lymia :Lymia Aluysia
< 1738594593 429430 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
> 1738595458 691246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfffffuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151315&oldid=151272 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-31) 10
> 1738596169 488439 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151316&oldid=151183 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+487) 10
> 1738596302 545580 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151317&oldid=151316 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+124) 10
> 1738596577 28391 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Frackit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151318&oldid=151285 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+180) 10
> 1738596591 3025 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Frackit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151319&oldid=151318 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+109) 10
< 1738596598 33580 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina JOIN #esolangs Lykaina :Lykaina Wolfe
< 1738597398 937535 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
> 1738597702 661292 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Frackit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151320&oldid=151314 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+212) 10
> 1738598551 888299 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Frackit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151321&oldid=151319 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+731) 10
< 1738598673 294365 :supercode!~supercode@user/supercode JOIN #esolangs supercode :[https://web.libera.chat] supercode
> 1738599779 667276 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151322&oldid=150972 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-101) 10/* (InDev) */
< 1738599875 719901 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1738599889 344319 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151323&oldid=150985 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+4526) 10
> 1738599994 620254 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03I am islptng 5*  10moved [[02User:I am islptng/Sandbox10]] to [[]]: I want it to move out!
> 1738600115 710257 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151326&oldid=151324 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-19) 10
> 1738600174 542739 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151327&oldid=151322 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+101) 10Undo revision [[Special:Diff/151322|151322]] by [[Special:Contributions/I am islptng|I am islptng]] ([[User talk:I am islptng|talk]])
> 1738600375 909773 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151328&oldid=151317 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-29) 10
> 1738600803 814786 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151329&oldid=151325 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-20) 10Removed redirect to [[]]
> 1738601704 574985 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Frackit14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151330&oldid=151321 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+4) 10fix link
< 1738607076 517473 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1738607094 498071 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1738607159 903069 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1738607493 989473 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151331&oldid=151312 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+4) 10/* Implementations */
> 1738607619 879806 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:H14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151332&oldid=143308 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+30) 10
> 1738607663 964370 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151333&oldid=151331 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+4) 10/* Implementations */
> 1738607741 20761 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Empty Program14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151334&oldid=150656 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+29) 10/* Befunge */
> 1738607822 256709 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Empty Program14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151335&oldid=151334 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-20) 10/* G# */  you don't need a main class anymore since the language now runs the latest defined function
> 1738607868 442257 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Empty Program14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151336&oldid=151335 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+2) 10/* Brainfuck,JS,Python and many other languages */
> 1738607896 439789 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07G Sharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151337&oldid=151142 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-20) 10/* Empty Program */
< 1738610371 941685 :supercode!~supercode@user/supercode QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1738611850 189393 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca JOIN #esolangs zzo38 :zzo38
< 1738617137 953082 :craigo_!~craigo@180-150-37-38.b49625.bne.nbn.aussiebb.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1738619970 659594 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User-webchat:37962 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User_webchat :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1738620256 216881 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User-webchat:37962 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1738620367 99426 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151338&oldid=151326 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+1) 10/* Judge if a number is even or odd */
> 1738620693 329690 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fun Video Game14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151339&oldid=151255 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+7) 10/* BASE */
> 1738620740 83427 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BAL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151340&oldid=145053 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-13) 10/* Truth-machine */
> 1738620774 889751 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BAL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151341&oldid=151340 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+6) 10/* Truth-machine */
< 1738621153 77262 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1738621866 859875 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.72.31.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :
< 1738622604 365889 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1738623830 659912 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User-webchat:37962 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User_webchat :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1738627401 510869 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1738627584 446871 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
< 1738628034 703972 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User-webchat:37962 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1738628054 707483 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User-webchat:37962 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User_webchat :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1738628158 75671 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1738628657 428949 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User-webchat:37962 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1738628701 946295 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1738629706 321412 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Frackit14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151342&oldid=151330 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+136) 10
< 1738629791 488054 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org JOIN #esolangs hooloovoo :Hooloovoo
< 1738632598 501957 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1738633022 288294 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1738633128 331281 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net JOIN #esolangs m5zs7k :m5zs7k
> 1738635740 994711 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151343&oldid=151298 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+47) 10/* why am i here */
> 1738636040 567701 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Cycwin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151344&oldid=151306 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+211) 10/* Just some weird words */ new section
> 1738639246 155673 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151345&oldid=151328 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1173) 10
> 1738639283 683599 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151346&oldid=151345 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+11) 10
> 1738639389 313686 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151347&oldid=151338 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+21) 10
> 1738640918 227947 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151348&oldid=151299 5* 03None1 5* (+281) 10/* Do you want to create a programming language with me? */
> 1738641183 936276 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ting Vit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151349&oldid=151263 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+167) 10
> 1738646010 443566 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Onesharp14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151350&oldid=151179 5* 03Jburns22 5* (-22) 10
< 1738646137 554265 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1738646873 967151 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1738648000 837627 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Normalcalc14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151351&oldid=141473 5* 03Itoh Shimon 5* (+0) 10rename github user name
> 1738648043 836436 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Normalcalc14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151352&oldid=151351 5* 03Itoh Shimon 5* (+0) 10/* External resources */ rename github user name
> 1738648095 408187 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Itoh Shimon14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151353&oldid=134420 5* 03Itoh Shimon 5* (+0) 10rename github user name
> 1738648115 870750 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Frackit14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151354&oldid=151320 5* 03UrnEn 5* (-1) 10/* Truth Machine */
> 1738648262 493184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Frackit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151355&oldid=151354 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+1) 10Undo revision [[Special:Diff/151354|151354]] by [[Special:Contributions/UrnEn|UrnEn]] ([[User talk:UrnEn|talk]])
> 1738652582 512943 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151356&oldid=151348 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+939) 10
> 1738652635 865766 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151357&oldid=151347 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1) 10
< 1738652794 260357 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1738653229 355096 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151358&oldid=151346 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+47) 10
> 1738653344 295017 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151359&oldid=151358 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+136) 10
> 1738653526 400780 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151360&oldid=151359 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+180) 10
> 1738653830 746131 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151361&oldid=151360 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+145) 10
> 1738653873 411039 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151362&oldid=151361 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+31) 10
> 1738654088 131941 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151363&oldid=151362 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+642) 10
< 1738654902 502476 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1738656751 80733 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1738658661 193255 :fria!uid151648@id-151648.ilkley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs fria :fria
< 1738658676 785146 :fria!uid151648@id-151648.ilkley.irccloud.com PART :#esolangs
> 1738660190 449105 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fun Video Game14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151364&oldid=151339 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1973) 10
> 1738660234 941731 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fun Video Game14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151365&oldid=151364 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+56) 10
< 1738663706 444588 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
> 1738664965 554445 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:B jonas/List14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151366&oldid=150883 5* 03B jonas 5* (+19) 10[[Funge-98]]
> 1738666181 919300 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Piet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151367&oldid=148755 5* 03B jonas 5* (+204) 10/* External resources */
> 1738666801 348764 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Scratch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151368&oldid=147676 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1772) 10
< 1738668582 521529 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1738668946 408118 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net JOIN #esolangs m5zs7k :m5zs7k
< 1738670548 457518 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1738670731 807192 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
< 1738671076 570390 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1738672465 665093 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1738673238 201608 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org JOIN #esolangs leah2 :Leah Neukirchen
< 1738674573 198580 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1738675409 512815 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org JOIN #esolangs leah2 :Leah Neukirchen
< 1738681830 957172 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.72.31.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
> 1738682011 296312 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151369&oldid=151363 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+183) 10
> 1738682643 362234 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151370&oldid=151369 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+374) 10
> 1738684760 924620 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151371&oldid=151357 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+150) 10
< 1738689582 893221 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1738693517 622508 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1738693560 464917 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1738693605 753527 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1738697485 515889 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151372&oldid=145284 5* 0347 5* (-74) 10
> 1738697608 191332 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151373&oldid=150295 5* 0347 5* (-29) 10/* Syntax */
< 1738698690 237412 :supercode!~supercode@user/supercode JOIN #esolangs supercode :[https://web.libera.chat] supercode
> 1738699255 596522 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bear14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151374&oldid=147610 5* 03Headless-Axolotl 5* (+167) 10
> 1738699283 391681 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bear14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151375&oldid=151374 5* 03Headless-Axolotl 5* (+4) 10fibonacci number heading mistake fix
< 1738699324 487206 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1738699588 659713 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net JOIN #esolangs m5zs7k :m5zs7k
< 1738701453 416214 :supercode!~supercode@user/supercode QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1738707228 81874 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the ASN.1 REAL type does not consider trailing zeros to be significant, and usually they probably aren't significant, but sometimes it is, e.g. in case the number of sigfigs is relevant. It could be made perhaps by a SCIENTIFIC type, which has the same type number as REAL but has a different DER encoding (which will still be compatible with the existing BER encoding, though).
< 1738707252 339689 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :This can also be true of other things e.g. time zones; for some applications it will be significant but for some it will not be significant.
< 1738707425 763539 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Also, I think that scientific notation should always be used if it needs to know the number of sigfigs; trying to do such a thing without scientific notation does not work very well, in my opinion.)
< 1738707582 287060 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(However, another problem with sigfigs is in case the significance is not a power of ten; I don't know how relevant that is in most science.)
> 1738709397 542982 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Triangular numbers14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151376 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+1521) 10create with implementations listed by search (also implement one for [[Iterate]])
> 1738709449 821937 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Iterate14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151377&oldid=150736 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+239) 10/* Example programs */
> 1738709462 251388 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Iterate14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151378&oldid=151377 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+2) 10/* Triangle numbers */
> 1738709486 997019 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Triangle numbers14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151379 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+32) 10Redirected page to [[Triangular numbers]]
< 1738710665 778265 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1738710683 33997 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1738712137 27009 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1738713842 52295 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1738713902 433238 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1738713948 993811 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
> 1738716080 764308 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03PurplrIsSus1985 5*  10New user account
> 1738716266 625630 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151380&oldid=151236 5* 03PurplrIsSus1985 5* (+250) 10
> 1738716298 119528 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151381&oldid=151380 5* 03PurplrIsSus1985 5* (+1) 10
< 1738717761 872422 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1738717784 51922 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1738718279 439153 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1738718791 242153 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Omniglot14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151382 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+1007) 10Created page with "an omniglot is a hypothetical [[polyglot]] that does the same thing in every language. omniglots are impossible, due to the conflicting nature of the following languages: == omniglot d1 == commands:  a - print hello world  e - end every other symbol throws an erro
> 1738719421 735473 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Polyglot14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151383&oldid=83944 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+173) 10/* Polyglot Empty Program */ new section
> 1738719651 536970 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unmatched (14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151384&oldid=144070 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+50) 10
> 1738719807 97464 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Baselang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151385&oldid=139606 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+57) 10
> 1738719939 785349 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nil14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151386&oldid=124270 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+32) 10
> 1738724052 920540 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Undalevein 5*  10New user account
> 1738724679 829430 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151387&oldid=151381 5* 03Undalevein 5* (+344) 10Added introduction
> 1738725108 562277 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Generated by AI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151388&oldid=145096 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+10) 10
> 1738726231 404456 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Omniglot14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151389 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+163) 10Created page with "I have an omniglot. 
 
 It runs the "successfully run this program" program. -~~~~"
> 1738736189 758468 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151390&oldid=151296 5* 03Ais523 5* (+637) 10/* Category: Collaborative programming language */ a) not opposed to this but b) the name is ambiguous and I'd prefer an unambiguous name
> 1738742159 467073 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unmatched (14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151391&oldid=151384 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-49) 10/* Examples */  this is pointless
> 1738742318 301512 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Generated by AI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151392&oldid=151388 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-117) 10decided to remove some ai programs... What is the point of adding several ai softwares?
< 1738743312 116781 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1738743379 920029 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
> 1738743510 903297 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Masqualia14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151393 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+4388) 10Created page with "Masqualia is designed by PSTF.  = Language Overview = Masqualia is based on Brainfuck, is extended version of Brainfuck. Masqualia supports conditional jumps, loops, arithmetics, I/O, has a tape, a stack, four accumulators, and can access the register.  Masquali
> 1738743572 480192 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151394&oldid=151266 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+16) 10
> 1738743628 329628 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Generated by AI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151395&oldid=151392 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+10) 10
> 1738744832 632466 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Omniglot14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151396&oldid=151389 5* 03YufangTSTSU 5* (+121) 10
> 1738745249 929353 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[079 bytes :I14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151397&oldid=139773 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (-6) 10
< 1738745436 538008 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1738745826 157042 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 QUIT :Quit: leaving
> 1738745879 763727 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Omniglot14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151398&oldid=151396 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+177) 10
> 1738746017 123756 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:UwU: A cute esolang14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151399 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+59) 10Created page with "This can actually write in normal English, or even Anglisc."
< 1738746023 986380 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1738746219 759016 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org JOIN #esolangs leah2 :Leah Neukirchen
> 1738746430 727259 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Alphabetack14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151400 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+674) 10Created page with "{{WIP}} '''Alphabetack''' is an esolang created by islptng. It's plan is to use all 26 characters.
 It has a stack and a box. The box can hold any rational.   == Commands == 
 a add (box += pop()) b break c continue d divide (box /= pop()) e else (used fo
> 1738746729 472335 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Alphabetack14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151401&oldid=151400 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+139) 10
> 1738750317 897989 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Masqualia14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151402&oldid=151393 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (-28) 10
> 1738753639 847744 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Alphabetack14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151403&oldid=151401 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-54) 10
> 1738754331 861892 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tom Murphy VII14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151404&oldid=125979 5* 03B jonas 5* (+75) 10/* Links */
< 1738755251 279298 :supercode!~supercode@user/supercode JOIN #esolangs supercode :[https://web.libera.chat] supercode
> 1738755827 620295 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151405&oldid=151356 5* 03None1 5* (+291) 10/* Do you want to create a programming language with me? */
> 1738755869 522998 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151406&oldid=151267 5* 03None1 5* (+37) 10
< 1738757005 68013 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1738757160 507994 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1738758268 389961 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Aphasia14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151407 5* 03B jonas 5* (+1119) 10Created page with "Aphasia is a functional programming language that [[Tom Murphy VII]] created and uses for his internal projects, such as his blog engine.  Aphasia is functional with side effects, statically typed with algebraic types and function closures, and as such is inspired by ML
> 1738758294 681644 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tom Murphy VII14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151408&oldid=151404 5* 03B jonas 5* (+14) 10[[Aphasia]]
> 1738759268 431314 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Masqualia14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151409&oldid=151402 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1236) 10
> 1738759706 210332 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Wound theology 5*  10New user account
> 1738759821 921976 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Aphasia14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151410&oldid=151407 5* 03B jonas 5* (+129) 10categories
> 1738760489 689129 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151411&oldid=151387 5* 03Wound theology 5* (+296) 10
> 1738760511 987611 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Trithemius14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151412 5* 03Wound theology 5* (+606) 10Created page with "'''Trithemius''' is an in-development [[esoteric programming language]] by [[User:Wound theology]], who under a different account, designed the [[:Category:Joke languages|joke language]] [[Brainfuck]] in 2017. Trithemius aims to simulate the look and feel of me
> 1738760643 183852 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Trithemius14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151413&oldid=151412 5* 03Wound theology 5* (+19) 10
> 1738760662 745516 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Trithemius14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151414&oldid=151413 5* 03Wound theology 5* (-1) 10
> 1738761729 802993 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bouncy Counters14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151415&oldid=141734 5* 03B jonas 5* (+1) 10/* Starting and stopping the program */ mistake?
< 1738762829 621696 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1738763227 841557 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151416&oldid=151394 5* 03B jonas 5* (+24) 10[[UE1]], [[Aphasia]]
< 1738763512 176612 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1738769594 673998 :supercode!~supercode@user/supercode QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1738774965 475147 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Calliwag 5*  10New user account
> 1738779515 514485 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Generated by AI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151417&oldid=151395 5* 03Ais523 5* (-33) 10probably no need to list generative AIs and large language models, just use the general name for them
> 1738779779 481614 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Vaguest14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151418&oldid=151302 5* 03Ais523 5* (-82) 10undo two revisions  the purpose of this wiki is to describe esoteric programming languages, and where it's the first source, we assume that the description by the language creator is correct unless it's obviously in error  editing a description to add commands therefore doesn't ch
< 1738779987 10139 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1738780018 28911 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1738780069 530383 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1738780601 75914 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151419&oldid=151300 5* 03Ais523 5* (+862) 10/*  */ please be careful when editing the specifications of other people's languages
< 1738780622 925969 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1738780641 796928 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: how's the wiki holding up after I hid all those revisions – did the crawlers give up, or are they still causing trouble on other pages?
< 1738780943 669585 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :As measured by CPU load on the wiki server, it comes and goes in bursts: https://zem.fi/tmp/cpu2.png
< 1738780990 100284 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :From nginx measurements, looks like it's actually started lagging/failing a little just over the last hour or so, though not as badly as it was.
< 1738781207 862273 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The current problematic pages seem to be [[Language list]] and [[Joke language list]] but hiding revisions for those probably isn't great.
< 1738781279 649175 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Haven't looked further into the "allow diffs only when logged in" idea.)
< 1738781457 69274 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, crawling those two language list pages started almost exactly at 16:00 local time, which lines up with the lag spiking.
< 1738781460 462038 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :b_jonas
< 1738781754 786473 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll be in a "fun event" (we're having a work thing) rest of the day, so I've done that "return 503s" thing for language list & joke language list diff pages temporarily, to make it less likely it'll keel over while I'm out. Hopefully nobody organically needs that in the next couple of hours. I'll unroll it when I get home.
< 1738781998 32833 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I did need the diff for the language list organically earlier today, to check that my edit was correct, but that's over now
< 1738782115 844412 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: your temporary change doesn't seem to have worked, I'm still getting 200 and a diff output for https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Language_list&diff=148777&oldid=148584
< 1738782135 980292 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's because you've listed the title before the diff parameter.
< 1738782149 723484 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The URL expression that triggers the 503 is  "diff=.*title=(?:Language_list|Joke_language_list)"  so if you put the parameters in that order it'll work.
< 1738782165 998076 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know where these URLs are coming from, but they consistently have the parameters in that order.
< 1738782228 438325 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :To me https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=148777&oldid=148584&title=Language_list "correctly" serves a 503.
< 1738782282 419178 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :If MediaWiki-generated URLs have it the other way around, that's even better, it will probably mean most people will never even notice there's a block.
< 1738782310 502321 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Although it raises the question, what *are* these crawlers -- or whatever they are -- doing to generate the requests...)
< 1738782323 414588 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway, I really need to head off to the fun.
< 1738785520 935444 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess old language list revisions aren't so useful, but if the parameter order blocking helps, so much the better
> 1738786589 238306 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SpecialRandom14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151420 5* 03Buckets 5* (+28) 10Redirected page to [[Special:Random]]
< 1738786705 459911 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess whatever tools they're using for the fetching might be sorting the CGI params in URLs or something.
< 1738786729 710322 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Still at the fun.)
< 1738787426 361970 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh, the order of the parameters? I wonder if they're tools made mostly for scraping Wikia wikis, since they have a lot of features that would make scraping easier disabled
< 1738787433 119636 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or not enabled
< 1738787475 289577 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :incidentally, where the main page says "the complete list of languages", shouldn't we remove "complete" since that's a lie?
< 1738790001 827848 :ajal!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1738790290 248444 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-084-063-063-254.084.063.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1738790290 352948 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1738790290 398703 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1738790290 429323 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1738790569 923418 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 JOIN #esolangs * :b_jonas
< 1738790934 271868 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149
< 1738790953 59572 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-084-063-063-254.084.063.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN #esolangs Melvar :melvar
> 1738791131 790316 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zyzzogeton14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151421 5* 03Buckets 5* (+2006) 10Created page with "Zyzzogeton is both an Esoteric programming language is also the last entry word in the Marriam-Webster Dictionary. Zyzzogeton is a 3D Esolang, most of the time though it's 2D. Also created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2021. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instruction
> 1738792250 122190 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zyzzogeton14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151422&oldid=151421 5* 03Buckets 5* (+144) 10
> 1738792393 716419 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151423&oldid=151416 5* 03Buckets 5* (+17) 10
> 1738792437 315727 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151424&oldid=151151 5* 03Buckets 5* (+17) 10
> 1738792481 732563 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zyzzogeton14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151425&oldid=151422 5* 03Buckets 5* (+0) 10
> 1738792942 183719 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Truth Machine (language)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151426&oldid=136736 5* 03Buckets 5* (+0) 10
< 1738794143 477927 :visilii_!~visilii@92.50.200.124 JOIN #esolangs * :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1738794165 63279 :visilii!~visilii@46.61.242.99 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1738794951 961491 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1738795019 961343 :ajal!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1738796270 649579 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Coffee is the answer14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151427 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+458) 10Created page with "coffee is the answer is an esolang created for [https://websim.ai/@Louis9987/get-verified|this] with 3 commands. == commands ==  create() - creates a string  x.attach(y) - adds y prefixed with a space to x, unless it is the first then there is no prefix
> 1738796279 296720 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Coffee is the answer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151428&oldid=151427 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+0) 10
> 1738796288 381405 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10deleted "[[02SpecialRandom10]]": cross-namespace redirect (not an esolang description page) and thus inappropriate for mainspace
< 1738796351 199180 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I'm really confused about why a bot might *intentionally* be trying to scrape all possible diffs – it looks quite intentional at this point, rather than the bot being lost in pages that aren't useful for it
< 1738796363 810584 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perhaps it's trying to learn what sort of edits human wiki editors make? that's the only thing I can think of
< 1738797977 354746 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1738798831 132386 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if I meet them, I'll tell them that they can download the full history using either Special:Export or /w/api.php
< 1738798841 760379 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no need for tons of separate queries
< 1738800174 494938 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1738800344 285087 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
< 1738802309 363370 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1738805427 632302 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina JOIN #esolangs Lykaina :Lykaina Wolfe
< 1738805961 473519 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1738807240 274655 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1738809155 217876 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151429&oldid=151419 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+184) 10
> 1738809189 111141 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MoreMathRPN14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151430&oldid=151247 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (-2) 10/* Instructions */
< 1738814004 731563 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1738814732 192825 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oops I found a mistake in the newest version of the Magic: the Gathering rules, which is that the line before rule 702.177 has a space
> 1738815574 581766 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Alphabetack14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151431&oldid=151403 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+0) 10
< 1738816324 78287 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs lisbeths :lisbeths
> 1738818629 716320 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/StormLang discussion14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151432 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+133) 10Created page with "Here is a discussion page for the programming language that will be designed both by PrySigneToFry and None-One.  = Discussion area ="
> 1738818694 385874 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151433&oldid=151405 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+950) 10
> 1738819072 513767 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07-5 bytes ;)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151434&oldid=145098 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (-86) 10
> 1738819669 689349 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:B sharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151435&oldid=105865 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+170) 10
> 1738825692 648993 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/StormLang discussion14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151436 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+193) 10Created page with "Talk pages exist you idiot~~~"
> 1738829727 336999 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/StormLang discussion14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151437&oldid=151436 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+948) 10
> 1738829991 948546 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/StormLang discussion14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151438&oldid=151432 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+254) 10
> 1738830356 825931 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Binary combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151439&oldid=8453 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+1178) 10I/O proposal for BCL
> 1738830375 836775 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Binary combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151440&oldid=151439 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+91) 10
> 1738832821 493802 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Frackit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151441&oldid=151342 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+519) 10/* What a great idea! */ new section
> 1738832995 62290 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Cycwin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151442&oldid=148631 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+15) 10
> 1738833308 79120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Frackit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151443&oldid=151441 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+60) 10/* What a great idea! */
> 1738835985 204563 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Binary combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151444&oldid=151440 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+128) 10/* Input-output specification */ Detailed process of program execution and production of program's output
< 1738836087 464099 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1738836626 947086 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Binary combinatory logic14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151445&oldid=151444 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (-1) 10/* Input-output specification */ 
< 1738843270 971971 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1738843470 884733 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1738843528 659073 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
< 1738846331 25565 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1738847143 1903 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1738861665 431355 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1738862628 430538 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1738866315 193363 :craigo_!~craigo@2403:5815:da48:0:a1aa:83b:a8a5:bab4 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1738866474 972033 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1738866513 961767 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1738866572 457840 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1738868900 276466 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1738875259 758970 :shikhin!~shikhin@offtopia/offtopian QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1738875261 431932 :Ae`!Ae@linux.touz.org JOIN #esolangs * :Ae
< 1738875267 179009 :Ae!Ae@linux.touz.org QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1738875270 738704 :Ae`!Ae@linux.touz.org NICK :Ae
< 1738875271 913727 :shikhin!~shikhin@ahti.space JOIN #esolangs * :shikhin
< 1738876068 778861 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1738876159 933613 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Excess Flood
> 1738876415 846848 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sulbimate14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151446 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1348) 10Created page with "Sulbimate is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2024, They thought about punch cards to much and thought about punch cards a dimension lower, a paper tape, A ''Flimsy'' Paper tape and thought "Can I do Control flow with only folding the pa
> 1738876476 729391 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151447&oldid=151423 5* 03Buckets 5* (+16) 10
< 1738876486 848376 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1738876522 691516 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151448&oldid=151424 5* 03Buckets 5* (+17) 10
> 1738876609 803422 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sulbimate14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151449&oldid=151446 5* 03Buckets 5* (+126) 10
> 1738876629 158592 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151450&oldid=151448 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1) 10
> 1738878399 67434 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tueue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151451&oldid=108484 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+570) 10Rectified the Bitwise Cyclic Tag interpreter and introduced a looping counter as a further example.
> 1738878544 849609 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tueue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151452&oldid=151451 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+193) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the Tueue programming language on GitHub and supplemented the Implemented category tag.
< 1738878889 922826 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1738879453 253329 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MoreMathRPN/Implicit plotter14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151453 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+4222) 10Added implicit plotter example
> 1738879787 175755 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MoreMathRPN14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151454&oldid=151430 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+131) 10/* Quine */
< 1738882261 457859 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina JOIN #esolangs Lykaina :Lykaina Wolfe
< 1738882311 422529 :shikhin!~shikhin@ahti.space QUIT :Quit: Quittin'.
< 1738882416 629007 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1738882422 459197 :Lykaina_!~lykaina@user/lykaina JOIN #esolangs Lykaina :Lykaina Wolfe
< 1738882438 189126 :shikhin!~shikhin@ahti.space JOIN #esolangs * :shikhin
< 1738882517 375588 :shikhin!~shikhin@ahti.space CHGHOST ~shikhin :offtopia/offtopian
< 1738882549 748140 :Lykaina_!~lykaina@user/lykaina NICK :Lykaina
< 1738885941 582667 :Ae!Ae@linux.touz.org NICK :Guest2971
< 1738886551 634422 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1738886724 486561 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
< 1738889894 652517 :thebigh!~thebigh@c-67-184-93-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] thebigh
< 1738889943 799124 :thebigh!~thebigh@c-67-184-93-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net QUIT :Client Quit
< 1738890905 15213 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1738893622 618700 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1738895197 633050 :janewila!~janewila@2600:387:f:691a::3 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] janewila
< 1738895985 281556 :janewila!~janewila@2600:387:f:691a::3 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1738897306 53074 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1738897500 460772 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1738899121 955097 :user3456!user3456@user/user3456 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1738899333 906625 :craigo_!~craigo@2403:5815:da48:0:a1aa:83b:a8a5:bab4 QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1738900221 617997 :user3456!user3456@user/user3456 JOIN #esolangs user3456 :user3456
< 1738900242 952185 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina QUIT :Quit: Leaving
> 1738901164 870523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SATire14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151455 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+19108) 10Created page with "SATire is an esolang by [[User:BoundedBeans]] made to look like the math section of a standardized test. It was lost due to accidental deletion, but this is a recreation with a lot of extra functionality.  ==Syntax== Before processing anything else, any text betwee
> 1738901196 472204 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151456&oldid=151447 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+13) 10
> 1738901210 58754 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:BoundedBeans14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151457&oldid=150123 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+12) 10
> 1738904149 954057 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03TKDKid1000 5*  10New user account
> 1738904357 750108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151458&oldid=151411 5* 03TKDKid1000 5* (+200) 10
< 1738905103 507934 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Discard your hand, and then draw seven cards. (You cannot draw anything if you do not have a hand to hold the pencil.)
> 1738908024 334341 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Iframe14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151459&oldid=138159 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+0) 10/* Alternating between B and C */
> 1738908037 820459 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Iframe14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151460&oldid=151459 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+0) 10/* Alternating between C and H */
< 1738910180 596143 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :With category of matrices, the zero-object is zero rows/columns, and the zero-morphisms is all numbers within the matrix are zero. Since there is also a monad (which I called the Finalize monad) for each final object, and a comonad (which I called the Initialize comonad) for each initial object, this means that category of matrices also has a Finalize monad and a Initialize comonad, I think.
< 1738910435 781633 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I don't know if there are other common names for these monads/comonads; do you know?)
< 1738910756 964185 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION redraws their hand

< 1738911019 89005 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I haven't heard of these monads before. How are they set up? I could guess: for a category C with terminal object 1, let Arr(C,1) be the arrow category, and let the carrying functor C -> Arr(C,1) be the obvious isomorphism that matches objects X with (X,!).
< 1738911058 284281 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The monad carried by that functor is equivalent to the identity monad, with the quirk that terminal objects need not be unique, and thus this monad is only *naturally equivalent* to the identity monad, up to unique isomorphism.
< 1738911072 493048 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :It is not what I meant.
< 1738911093 445070 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, no worries. Sorry for guessing.
< 1738911154 628632 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But to answer the second part of your thought: yes, zero objects can be used as terminal or initial objects, so that category of matrices would have the same Finalize and Initialize.
< 1738911158 712401 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :What I meant is the functor that makes everything into the identity morphism of the final object (and then the two natural transformations clearly have only one possibility)
< 1738911304 103365 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(In Haskell:  data Finalize a = Finalize deriving (Functor); instance Monad Finalize where { return _ = Finalize; Finalize >>= _ = Finalize; };)
< 1738911490 851876 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, huh. I think that there's some specialized terminology I could look up for the overall pattern, but I don't think I've ever seen a name for this particular functor.
> 1738911833 661670 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151461&oldid=150035 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+75) 10
< 1738911936 67979 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It looks like it's known to be terminal in a nice-enough category of monads, but I'm having trouble finding a good citation or any name besides "terminal monad".
> 1738911942 46227 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/My words14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151462&oldid=141226 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+49) 10
> 1738912062 943330 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/My Rate to the user that I know14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151463&oldid=149927 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (-53) 10
< 1738918904 199633 :mcfrdy!~mcfrdy@user/mcfrdy JOIN #esolangs mcfrdy :mcfrdy
> 1738919913 327330 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stackfish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151464&oldid=151113 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+50) 10
< 1738920372 337820 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1738920564 966710 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07-5 bytes ;)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151465&oldid=151434 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-5) 10/* Factorial */  fixed the factorial
> 1738920618 141804 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07-5 bytes ;)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151466&oldid=151465 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-7) 10/* Factorial */ EasyJet
< 1738920700 348452 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1738921005 622129 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net JOIN #esolangs m5zs7k :m5zs7k
< 1738923631 443084 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1738926553 341632 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1738926555 791009 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yo ais523    😌
< 1738926711 486541 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi
> 1738927782 706954 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07-5 bytes ;)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151467&oldid=151466 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+88) 10
> 1738928022 717634 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07(PSTF)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151468&oldid=148922 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+867) 10
> 1738928097 83438 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Poetic (Mihai Popa)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151469&oldid=148421 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (-4) 10
> 1738929548 474639 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EsoInterpreters14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151470&oldid=150413 5* 03WinslowJosiah 5* (+565) 10Add EsoInterpreter of brainfuck in Bespoke
< 1738929780 487156 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1738929936 685933 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
< 1738935878 643008 :chomwitt!~alex@2a02:587:7a26:9800:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd JOIN #esolangs chomwitt :realname
< 1738936311 975247 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1738937512 644395 :Artea!~Lufia@artea.pt QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.9.1 - https://znc.in
> 1738938950 468527 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Onechar14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151471&oldid=148690 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+44) 10
> 1738939093 203071 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Onechar14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151472&oldid=151471 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+2) 10/* The Syntax */
< 1738939559 868485 :Artea!~Lufia@artea.pt JOIN #esolangs Artea :Artea ElFo
< 1738941257 3625 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1738941308 482171 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`"
< 1738941314 70702 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :1/1:1031)  i think delivery sushi is one of those habits that can rapidly consume all of one's money   like cocaine \ 1248)  MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN / HIRAGANA LETTER YA / SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW
< 1738941385 939727 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`w
< 1738941388 479568 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​grue//grue is the colour of the trees and the ocean
< 1738941581 955068 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION vaguely wonders why that particular hiragana letter was chosen

> 1738941870 711900 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Binary combinatory logic14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151473&oldid=151445 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+51) 10/* Input-output specification */ Minor clarifications
> 1738942070 187320 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151474&oldid=151458 5* 03WoodyFan3412 5* (+178) 10Added missing info
> 1738942142 988807 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WoodyFan341214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151475&oldid=146387 5* 03WoodyFan3412 5* (-59) 10i quitted
< 1738942169 492585 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder where the wiki-scrapers pull their fake UA strings from, because some of these are pretty ancient at this point. (Firefox/4.0b8 on OS X 10.6?)
> 1738942273 656852 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WoodyFan341214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151476&oldid=151475 5* 03WoodyFan3412 5* (-59) 10
< 1738942314 363301 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also one of them *starts* with "Chrome/15.0.860.0", in place of the usual "Mozilla/5.0", which I don't think is even a thing.
< 1738942413 123132 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :This one is quite a gem as well: "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/34.0.1847.116 Safari/537.36 Mozilla/5.0 (iPad; U; CPU OS 3_2 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/531.21.10 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0.4 Mobile/7B334b Safari/531.21.10"
< 1738942421 654038 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(So... an iPad running Windows XP, then?)
< 1738942535 472857 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net JOIN #esolangs m5zs7k :m5zs7k
< 1738942562 727302 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( what happens if you ask DeepSeek for plausible User-Agent strings )
< 1738942624 547505 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, some of these look like LLM hallucinations. I remember couple of months back when I was looking they were even worse, with a lot of other random-looking numbers in place of CPU identifiers like "i686".
< 1738942632 66788 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe they've switched to a better model.
< 1738942669 887597 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :But you'd think it would be cheaper to just use a list of most common UAs from somewhere instead of bothering to use an LLM to generate unique ones.
< 1738942848 180029 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
> 1738942916 384397 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Trow14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151477 5* 03WoodyFan3412 5* (+196) 10Created page with "https://perchance.org/ There's a website with a language that does something very similar to this. ~~~~"
< 1738943159 999820 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: I can understand when the UA strings refer to very old browsers, because it was only back with very old browsers when any server-side programs cared about the UA string on server-side, so old libraries on the client-side may have been hard-coded to eg. lie that they are IE4 because some servers serve the wrong thing for IE3 clients, and
< 1738943160 476277 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nobody bothered to change that because claiming to be IE4 doesn't break anything on new servers, and similarly old libraries on the server-side might be hard-coded to serve something different for anyone who doesn't claim to be IE4 because their normal output was found to be broken on the still popular IE3 clients, and nobody bothered to change it
< 1738943161 17314 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :since because every modern browser lies that they are IE4-compatible so the CEOs don't complain that they can't access the site.
< 1738943253 571990 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I love the "(KHTML, like Gecko)" bit that Chrome-family user agents have.
< 1738943282 986428 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Presumably just to get the substring "Gecko" in there.
< 1738943311 954530 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably actually IE6 vs IE7, I'm not sure IE3 ever existed
< 1738943493 408088 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1738944521 15079 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1738945241 459962 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1738946037 184184 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1738949050 95269 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Binary combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151478&oldid=151473 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+919) 10/* Input-output specification */ Hopeless idea?
> 1738950163 409173 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Binary combinatory logic14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151479&oldid=151478 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+70) 10/* Input-output specification */ clarification
< 1738952848 494072 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1738952911 938558 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
> 1738952913 306090 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151480&oldid=151474 5* 03Ais523 5* (-178) 10Undo revision [[Special:Diff/151474|151474]] by [[Special:Contributions/WoodyFan3412|WoodyFan3412]] ([[User talk:WoodyFan3412|talk]])  vandalises another user's introduction and was introduced already, thus there's no reason to do it again
< 1738952932 492322 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1738955196 975549 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: the fun thing about all the substring hacks is that they're actually useful on the sniffing side – you don't really care about what the browser actually is, just what features it supports, and if it's saying it supports the relevant features of another browser it probably does
< 1738955279 60983 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I used to use an early IE at school, I can't remember whether it was IE4 or IE5
< 1738955314 185814 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, that's why some version of IE had "Mozilla" in their default User-Agent
< 1738955337 338962 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think sniffing was mostly used for frameset support, which very few websites actually use nowadays
< 1738955349 320186 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure what the replacement is, or whether it just went out of style to do websites that way
< 1738955360 16954 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it'd be easy enough to reproduce with CSS and iframes
> 1738955553 852688 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stackfish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151481&oldid=151464 5* 0347 5* (+18) 10/* Interpreter */
< 1738955886 359696 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: the replacement is that now every browser difference is handled on client-side. it started with magic conditional comments that allowed to run code conditionally to distinguish between IE6, IE7, IE8, IE9. but these days we don't even need that.
< 1738956002 447804 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: but what if I need the page to run on both Mozilla and Mosaic?
< 1738956015 162236 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think pretty much all "normal browsers" still start with "Mozilla/5.0 ...".
< 1738956021 192992 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Though (just checked) Lynx and w3m don't. But they hardly qualify as normal.
< 1738956048 83533 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: that is probably intentional, Lynx and w3m likely actively don't want whatever website features that user-agent would enable
< 1738956068 69502 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my "make the page work on Mosaic" is not 100% hypothetical, it's exactly the sort of thing you would expect an INTERCAL website to do
< 1738956097 410126 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for a while one of the main INTERCAL websites was only available using Gopher over IPv6, I can't remember why, I assume there was a good reason at the time
< 1738956118 480681 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, that's why for old browsers it was server-side dispatching
< 1738956208 676043 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though of course you'd also look at the Accept header to see if the browser can display png images if that comes up
< 1738956279 908692 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION has a vague idea of just rendering the images with loads and loads of overlapping colored 
s

< 1738956310 600667 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I actually did that for a program I wrote using HTML+CSS+JS when I was younger (on a computer that wasn't online, it was just using a web browser for rendering)
< 1738956344 464616 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :young me hadn't figured out how to make the 
s small enough, so I overlapped them so that only the relevant numbers of pixels would be visible and the rest would be covered by a 
 to its right or below it
> 1738956529 711885 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PUDDING! 2514]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151482 5* 03Win7HE 5* (+102) 10Created page with "Coming Soon!  PUDDING! 25 was made by [[User:Win7HE]]. == why "PUDDING"? == That just came in my mind."
< 1738956591 530115 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: 
< 1738956688 43347 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this wouldn't be so terse in old browsers because COLGROUP is new, but it'
< 1738956690 506682 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :s still possible
> 1738956758 619195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Win7HE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151483&oldid=150623 5* 03Win7HE 5* (+34) 10/* check out these */
< 1738958587 82578 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :FYI: I've extended the "block diffs with unexpected parameter order" rule to cover all pages, because the wiki was again timing out, this time I think due to the hello-world-in-esoteric-languages pages, and I didn't want to keep playing whack-a-mole with it. Let me know if you run into it from just using the wiki as normal.
< 1738958589 295940 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Over the weekend I'll try to see how much it would take to kludge in a logged-in requirement into the diff page.)
< 1738958658 992657 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok
> 1738958727 138677 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151484&oldid=151450 5* 03Buckets 5* (+47) 10
< 1738959626 690495 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1738959819 511907 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(CPU use on the wiki-server dropped from 80% to 20% just from turning that on.)
< 1738959932 388997 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Nice!
> 1738960454 976747 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sleep.14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151485 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1844) 10Created page with ": ''Not to be confused with [[Sleep]]'' Sleep. Is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]], just about Sleeping made in 2024. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Command !! Instruction |- | Sleep || Sleep |}  Sleep:  Sleep  Extra Sleep:  Sleep Sleep  This progr
> 1738960481 406875 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151486&oldid=151484 5* 03Buckets 5* (+12) 10
> 1738960593 610750 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151487&oldid=151456 5* 03Buckets 5* (+25) 10
< 1738960765 611847 :chomwitt!~alex@2a02:587:7a26:9800:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1738960988 476432 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net JOIN #esolangs sprout :sprout
< 1738961481 507388 :Ae`!Ae@linux.touz.org JOIN #esolangs * :Ae
< 1738961542 468837 :Guest2971!Ae@linux.touz.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
> 1738961663 904694 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07How dare you fuck the brain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151488&oldid=151085 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+0) 10/* Hello, world! */
> 1738961826 892185 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sleep.14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151489&oldid=151485 5* 03Buckets 5* (+96) 10
> 1738962056 257078 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07How dare you fuck the brain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151490&oldid=151488 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+0) 10/* Interpreter */
> 1738962077 42631 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07How dare you fuck the brain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151491&oldid=151490 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-2) 10/* Hello, world! */
> 1738962153 891392 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (H-M)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151492&oldid=151107 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-2) 10/* How dare you fuck the brain */
< 1738962586 574430 :Ae`!Ae@linux.touz.org NICK :Ae
< 1738962710 364947 :Ae!Ae@linux.touz.org NICK :Guest2975
> 1738965220 29228 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07How dare you fuck the brain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151493&oldid=151491 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-2) 10/* Hello, world! */
> 1738965331 253494 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07How dare you fuck the brain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151494&oldid=151493 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-696) 10/* Interpreter */
> 1738965365 774407 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (H-M)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151495&oldid=151492 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-2) 10/* How dare you fuck the brain */
> 1738967315 565165 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Binary combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151496&oldid=151479 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+721) 10/* Input-output specification */ solution?
> 1738967688 675653 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tanstore14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151497&oldid=135571 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+3615) 10Added an implementation of an encoder and a decoder in Common Lisp.
> 1738967784 334738 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Binary combinatory logic14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151498&oldid=151496 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+120) 10/* Input-output specification */
> 1738967835 19781 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tanstore14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151499&oldid=151497 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+1188) 10Supplemented a more detailed tabulation of the symbols and their Tanstore character codes.
> 1738968398 561432 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Comment14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151500&oldid=149126 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-32) 10/* bog prok */
> 1738968511 254472 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Comment14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151501&oldid=151500 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-401) 10/* How dare you fuck the brain */
< 1738968512 966508 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina JOIN #esolangs Lykaina :Lykaina Wolfe
> 1738968557 309151 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Comment14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151502&oldid=151501 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+19) 10/* How dare you fuck the brain */
> 1738968578 586092 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Comment14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151503&oldid=151502 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-78) 10/* Hum */
> 1738968711 117489 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Comment14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151504&oldid=151503 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+50) 10/* MarkupL */
> 1738968760 820798 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Comment14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151505&oldid=151504 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+5) 10/* MarkupL */
> 1738968913 257433 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Empty Program14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151506&oldid=151336 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+3) 10/* true */
< 1738969500 742397 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :bought a device for debugging based on the rp2350...oops
> 1738969912 321485 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151507&oldid=151486 5* 03Buckets 5* (+8) 10
> 1738970551 180031 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151508&oldid=151507 5* 03Buckets 5* (-8) 10
> 1738970568 453596 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/StormLang discussion14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151509&oldid=151438 5* 03None1 5* (+158) 10/* None1's Design */
> 1738970964 601012 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151510&oldid=151508 5* 03Buckets 5* (+8) 10
> 1738970973 76636 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[076A14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151511 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1290) 10Created page with "6A is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2024.  {| class="wikitable" |- ! Header text !! Header text |- | ' ' || Prints what is inside of the single quotes. |- | j || Multiplies 2 to the current number. |- | / || Multiplies 2 then plus the number
> 1738971015 100652 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151512&oldid=151487 5* 03Buckets 5* (+9) 10
< 1738972310 770273 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in
< 1738972534 183430 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 JOIN #esolangs slavfox :slavfox
< 1738973026 518343 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1738973148 232525 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
< 1738976636 119264 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1738976871 601542 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi
< 1738976922 78949 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :thinking of adding a common stack to fungeball in addition
< 1738976969 904795 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :for inter-thread communication
< 1738977528 990622 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`olist 1318
< 1738977531 985303 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :olist : shachaf oerjan Sgeo boily nortti b_jonas Noisytoot
< 1738977799 68775 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I saw it but forgot about olisting :(
< 1738977873 318369 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :don't worry, I've done that for some strips too
< 1738980033 760132 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1738980393 34098 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina QUIT :Quit: Leaving
> 1738980840 403343 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151513&oldid=151327 5* 03WikiRasp 5* (+159) 10Added truth-machine implementation for Pascal.
> 1738983994 986866 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Medium-level14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151514&oldid=126291 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+127) 10
> 1738988570 447987 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07X-ASM14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151515 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+6188) 10Created page with "{{WIP}}  X-ASM is an Assembly-like programming language designed by PSTF.  = Language Overview = X-ASM is a variant of Assembly Language, but it is not real Assembly Language(such as like x86, ARM, MASM, etc.), thus it is a Medium-level language. It is inspired by [
> 1738988610 18662 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151516&oldid=151512 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+12) 10/* X */
> 1738988879 535723 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151517&oldid=131368 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+52) 10
> 1738989165 373329 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/StormLang discussion14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151518&oldid=151509 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+105) 10
> 1738989329 399982 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151519&oldid=151343 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+602) 10/* User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/StormLang discussion */ new section
> 1738989393 488609 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151520&oldid=151273 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+323) 10/* Instructions */ Added new instructions that contradict Funge-98
> 1738989702 339533 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151521&oldid=151520 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+248) 10/* Hello, World! */  Added new examples.
> 1738989841 711014 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151522&oldid=151521 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+79) 10/* GitHub Versions */
> 1738991372 893994 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151523&oldid=151522 5* 03Lykaina 5* (-17) 10/* GitHub Versions */ Removing notice that latest version is not available because it is.
< 1738991441 944844 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
> 1738992422 351872 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Empty Program14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151524&oldid=151506 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+135) 10
> 1738992688 692860 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/BRING BACK THE OLD SANDBOX14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151525&oldid=150023 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+113) 10
> 1738992916 56197 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151526&oldid=149486 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+102) 10/* WoUlD yOu MiNd If I tHoUgHt Of YoUr "BRING BACK THE OLD SANDBOX" As An ExAmPlE pRoGrAm? */ new section
> 1738993154 220276 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151527&oldid=150973 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+101) 10
> 1738993192 629991 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151528&oldid=151527 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+4) 10
> 1738993583 419245 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151529&oldid=151528 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+455) 10
> 1738993622 256795 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151530&oldid=151529 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+0) 10
> 1738993784 876787 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151531&oldid=151530 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (-398) 10
> 1738994108 903512 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07fuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151532&oldid=149642 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+3757) 10
> 1738994250 752635 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151533&oldid=151531 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+84) 10
> 1738994471 497414 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated /PSTF Again514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151534&oldid=150390 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+17) 10
> 1738996062 349611 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated LOLCODE14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151535 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+2413) 10Created page with "Translated LOLCODE is designed by PSTF. It is LOLCODE but formalized and horribly translated.  1. Take this program related to stack: 
 HAI 1.3 O HAI IM pile I HAS A length ITZ 0 I HAS A max ITZ -1  HOW IZ I pushin YR item DIFFRINT ME'Z max AN BIGGR
> 1738996110 771298 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151536&oldid=151311 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+25) 10
> 1738997108 3425 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151537&oldid=151293 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+184) 10Fixed description
> 1738997342 273718 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151538&oldid=151537 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+123) 10
< 1738997577 995687 :chomwitt!~alex@2a02:587:7a26:9800:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd JOIN #esolangs chomwitt :realname
> 1738997743 433307 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Free Esolang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151539&oldid=151216 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+2) 10
> 1738998351 669915 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Everyonelang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151540&oldid=145095 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+334) 10
> 1738999021 458804 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151541&oldid=151533 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+300) 10
> 1738999887 479746 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151542&oldid=151129 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1923) 10/* Decode my message on here and you'll get things I say. */ new section
< 1739000200 950797 :nitrix!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in
< 1739000281 492848 :nitrix!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix JOIN #esolangs nitrix :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1739004104 932584 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PUDDING! 2514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151543&oldid=151482 5* 03Win7HE 5* (-93) 10Replaced content with "Cancelled"
> 1739004318 673756 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SLet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151544&oldid=151050 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+59) 10
> 1739004430 279784 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151545&oldid=151275 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-5) 10
< 1739005937 947138 :chomwitt!~alex@2a02:587:7a26:9800:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1739009572 164645 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1739010925 117718 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Array?14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151546 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+283) 10Created page with "okay i am trying to rebrand this as UNAI, let's see how long is it gonna take for me to make syntax for the language~~~"
> 1739011838 3192 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151547&oldid=151429 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+703) 10/*  */
< 1739012373 840982 :arbe!~arbe@89-64-67-56.dynamic.chello.pl JOIN #esolangs * :Unknown
> 1739012505 630506 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hakerh400/Question for AI models14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151548 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+11624) 10Created page with "We devised a simple question for testing AI models:  :''Is there a combinator X in SKI calculus, such that XK reduces to S and XS reduces to K?''  So far, all known AI models answered negatively to this question and provided a "proof" th
> 1739012531 654196 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hakerh40014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151549&oldid=151127 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+67) 10/* Articles */
> 1739012646 291777 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hakerh400/Question for AI models14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151550&oldid=151548 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (-1) 10
< 1739012858 266923 :arbe!~arbe@89-64-67-56.dynamic.chello.pl QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1739014595 910522 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1739016180 252220 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1739016333 590512 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
< 1739017147 51538 :chomwitt!~alex@2a02:587:7a26:9800:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd JOIN #esolangs chomwitt :realname
> 1739021728 139563 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151551&oldid=151547 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+206) 10
< 1739022321 112653 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1739024664 511392 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/StormLang discussion14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151552&oldid=151518 5* 03None1 5* (+61) 10/* None1's Design */
< 1739028887 83482 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.72.31.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :Quit: rebooting
< 1739028935 112858 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.72.31.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1739036855 29227 :chomwitt!~alex@2a02:587:7a26:9800:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
> 1739037996 683710 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hakerh400/Question for AI models14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151553 5* 03Ais523 5* (+1170) 10how I reason when solving this problem
< 1739038858 205193 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...Okay, this question for AI models is the third push. I'm going to build a Gödel machine that uses Metamath for proofs.
< 1739038868 66321 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe not today, but clearly it's needed.
< 1739039327 690175 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1739039356 509418 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1739039414 885383 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1739044579 945577 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1739045621 249060 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina JOIN #esolangs Lykaina :Lykaina Wolfe
> 1739047558 373599 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151554&oldid=151523 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+438) 10/* Instructions */ updating for future release v1.0-beta5a
> 1739047855 616438 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151555&oldid=151554 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+41) 10/* Hello, World! */ updating for release v1.0-beta5a
> 1739048022 42804 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151556&oldid=151555 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+15) 10/* Threading */ updating
< 1739048061 932149 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1739048857 834915 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151557&oldid=151556 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+81) 10/* GitHub Versions */ adding v1.0-beta5a to list.
< 1739048867 84120 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi Sgeo
< 1739048907 656106 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :check out https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fungeball
< 1739049824 723757 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1739049851 895345 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Bought some adapters to fit some old HDs into my computer, so going to be imaging them and will be off of IRC a bit
< 1739050011 774344 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel a bit too unfamiliar with Befunge-93
< 1739051008 680151 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :no time like the present to learn
< 1739051113 685316 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1739051139 766394 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :oops
< 1739052312 231448 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1739052334 66704 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :HD+Adapter doesn't actually fit into my computer. Should have guessed.
< 1739052479 282390 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :When Firefox displays an error message such as "The page you are trying to view cannot be shown because it uses an invalid or unsupported form of compression." why doesn't it display the details (e.g. what invalid form of compression?) within that error message?
< 1739052550 566708 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(In this specific case, the compression type seems to be gzip as far as I can tell, which is supported, but perhaps it is not a valid gzip file. It also says it is a 503 error, so I suppose that is not the only problem anyways.)
< 1739052623 478758 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :♥
< 1739052644 473735 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: Just elimiate all the Problems
< 1739052652 660519 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: If some persist, submit a Patch to fix them
< 1739052655 265325 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night *
< 1739052656 425449 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :😴
< 1739053360 574121 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is a fungeball single-threaded hello world program: "Hello, World!"a>:#i #0_>0# o# :#,_@
> 1739053870 594071 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151558&oldid=151557 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+78) 10/* Hello, World! */ added single-threaded one-line example
< 1739054084 581110 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not clear what a "common stack" is, and if there's many common stacks (not sure why else you'd specify a common stack number)
< 1739054098 17356 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :16
< 1739054166 212607 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :common stack means stack that is usable by all threads, not the thread stack
< 1739054301 152419 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's to simplify inter-stack communication
< 1739054344 676592 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :since there's no way for a 'thread' to know which 'thread' it is
< 1739054599 318100 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :i mean, inter-'thread' communication
< 1739054912 63190 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo: thanks for asking. I'll update the wiki to reflect it.
> 1739055295 670240 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151559&oldid=151558 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+236) 10/* Implementation Notes */ Adding notes on Common Stacks.
< 1739056255 780009 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :the next command i am going to add will likely be 'r', for both read and for reset
< 1739056295 505311 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :reads in 2000 bytes and stores that to grid
< 1739056334 135827 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :and restarts with that grid
< 1739056859 52023 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :not sure though
> 1739057148 279003 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MoreMathRPN14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151560&oldid=151454 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+453) 10Notes on recursion.
> 1739057178 195000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MoreMathRPN14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151561&oldid=151560 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+2) 10/* Notes on recursion */
< 1739057406 378272 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was wondering if there needed to be synchronization primitives other than wait, but I guess careful counting of when a thread would end up using a shared resource makes that unnecessary
< 1739057608 575804 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe w should take an argument for the maximum amount of other 'threads' that can be present for continuing
< 1739057645 104606 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Why do some Linux systems attempt to verify TLS server certificates even if you tell it not to, and this feature does not seem to be documented? It does not hvae this problem on my computer (which also has Linux).
< 1739057646 992899 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :One way to work around this, when using "openssl s_client", is to pass the -showcerts option and redirect the output to a file, and then use the -CAfile option with the file that you sent the output to, and then it will accept it, even though the file contains all sorts of error messages in addition to the certificates.
< 1739057789 137105 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :the current function of w would then be 0w.
< 1739057950 267391 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I'm a bit unsure of the use, and thinking more along the lines of if there should be a lock thing, like locking on 1 and if another thread has a lock on 1, then wait for the lock to be release.d
< 1739057973 138985 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :good idea
> 1739058498 738103 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MoreMathRPN14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151562&oldid=151561 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+89) 10/* Notes on recursion */
< 1739058519 879141 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :i see a way to do that.
< 1739058605 99317 :citrons!~citrons@alt.mondecitronne.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
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< 1739058726 583595 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(It is not only openssl s_client that does this on some systems; ncat also does this on some systems. The documentation says it is not supposed to do this, and on my computer neither program does this (so it works as documented).)
> 1739058737 373008 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07I'm lime14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151563 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1596) 10Created page with "I'm lime was created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2025 with the purpose of either making Art block worse or potentially better. (You cannot use 0-9 numbers, instead you must use a different way of displaying numbers, for examples: English words, Spanish words and Roman numer
> 1739058746 806470 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151564&oldid=151510 5* 03Buckets 5* (+13) 10
< 1739058762 972593 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :zz038: ncat or netcat?
> 1739058788 946744 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151565&oldid=151516 5* 03Buckets 5* (+15) 10
< 1739058847 854649 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :It is ncat. (netcat or nc does not use TLS)
< 1739058889 554167 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :i didn't know ncat did
> 1739058889 649783 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07I'm lime14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151566&oldid=151563 5* 03Buckets 5* (+10) 10
> 1739058933 572717 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07I'm lime14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151567&oldid=151566 5* 03Buckets 5* (+2) 10
< 1739058949 926934 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are two different and incompatible netcats
< 1739058965 488525 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :only two? 
< 1739058973 831891 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought there were like three
< 1739058989 500401 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :really?
< 1739058991 595308 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they differ on how you tell what port to listen on at least
< 1739059003 392631 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :On my computer it does not verify unless --ssl-verify is specified. However, on some other computers I have tried, it seems to try to verify it even if --ssl-verify is not specified, and there does not seem to be any way to disable this.
< 1739059046 384710 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :what os (and if linux, what distro)?
< 1739059136 383055 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think there were two Linux systems, at least one of which is Raspberry Pi (I don't remember if the other one also is)
< 1739059166 426761 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :raspberry pi is debian
< 1739059200 782605 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :or a kind of hardware
> 1739059277 879716 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sleep.14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151568&oldid=151489 5* 03Buckets 5* (+40) 10
< 1739059404 362709 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know it is the hardware, but I thought it has its own distribution too which is configured to use on that hardware, but maybe it is Debian.
< 1739059404 456792 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :brb
< 1739059486 236015 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :raspbian / raspberry pi os is a debian-based distro
< 1739059486 266307 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
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< 1739059662 353002 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK
> 1739059998 708424 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151569 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+491) 10Created Pointing
> 1739060012 835046 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151570&oldid=151569 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+1) 10
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> 1739062176 403957 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03NNlk05 5*  10New user account
> 1739062313 480709 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03NNlk05IsTaken 5*  10New user account
> 1739062527 615860 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FXYT14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151571&oldid=144499 5* 03Susam 5* (+13) 10Include IPA notation
> 1739063476 180915 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10deleted "[[02Category:Medium-level10]]": unapproved category
> 1739064099 995221 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Divmeq14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151572&oldid=148301 5* 03TheCanon2 5* (+129) 10digital root
< 1739064257 289890 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :with regards to Fungeball, for v1.0-beta6, i'm making the change i wanted to with 'w' and adding 'h'ex, 'k'eep at, and 'l'abel
< 1739064629 252005 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :2k would activate wait mode on that thread until there were no threads left that had previously used the 2l sequence, and so on.
< 1739064748 649263 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :let me retype that:
< 1739064800 366296 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :2k would activate wait mode on that thread until there were no threads left that had used the 2l sequence and no other ?l sequences after, and so on.
< 1739064981 484243 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :42h would put the (decimal) number 66 on the thread stack
< 1739065001 373022 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :aka the char 'B'
< 1739065093 684947 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :'x' is like 'h', but forces 8-bit number
< 1739065312 853194 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :12h3h puts 291 on the thread stack, while 12x3x puts 35 on the thread stack
> 1739066140 58852 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151573&oldid=151559 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+368) 10/* Instructions */ update for v1.0-beta6
> 1739066288 35089 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151574&oldid=151573 5* 03Lykaina 5* (-4) 10/* Hello, World! */ update for v1.0-beta6
< 1739066386 913086 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1739066438 115278 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151575&oldid=151574 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+66) 10/* GitHub Versions */ adding v1.0-beta6
< 1739066499 803888 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :now i need to upload the code for v1.0-beta6...
> 1739067267 399832 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03None1 5*  10moved [[02TM10]] to [[TM (I am islptng)]]: There are 2 languages named TM now
> 1739067313 722352 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151578&oldid=151542 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+92) 10/* So do I need to move out all pages from the deleted category "Medium-Level"? */ new section
> 1739067375 985499 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CreativeASM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151579&oldid=150094 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (-26) 10Removed un-exist category
> 1739067442 535907 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07X-ASM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151580&oldid=151515 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (-26) 10[[Category:Turing complete]]
> 1739067530 736532 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151581&oldid=151577 5* 03None1 5* (+172) 10Removed redirect to [[TM (I am islptng)]]
> 1739067618 96492 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0710 digits, 100 digytes14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151582 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+6410) 10Created page with "10 digits, 100 digytes is a programming lnaguage designed by PSTF.  1 digyte is 10 digits, so its memory is very big. Programs are dumped in memory.  = Command Set = Every cell is signed integer between -(1064) to 1064. But it 
> 1739067658 319039 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151583&oldid=151565 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+29) 10
> 1739067735 597204 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151584&oldid=151390 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+901) 10/* Category: Collaborative programming language */
> 1739067737 589717 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151585&oldid=150927 5* 03None1 5* (+392) 10/* Type 46 */
< 1739067893 81016 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :...v1.0-beta6 is online
> 1739068003 770044 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151586&oldid=151585 5* 03None1 5* (+259) 10/* Example Programs */
> 1739068045 844949 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/StormLang discussion14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151587&oldid=151552 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+129) 10
> 1739068235 786425 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151588&oldid=151586 5* 03None1 5* (+721) 10/* Interpreters */
> 1739068267 343027 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151589&oldid=151588 5* 03None1 5* (+27) 10/* Categories and References */  Some are not implemented yet
> 1739068401 962107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151590&oldid=151589 5* 03None1 5* (+79) 10
> 1739068411 241379 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151591&oldid=151590 5* 03None1 5* (-1) 10
< 1739068792 553631 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina QUIT :Quit: Leaving
> 1739068855 643650 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151592&oldid=151591 5* 03None1 5* (+1014) 10/* Type 14 */
> 1739068901 211642 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151593&oldid=151592 5* 03None1 5* (-945) 10/* Type 28 */
> 1739068917 946411 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151594&oldid=151593 5* 03None1 5* (+1014) 10/* Type 18 */
> 1739069205 900279 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151595&oldid=151594 5* 03None1 5* (+630) 10
> 1739069367 430229 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Programming abillities of different esolangs14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151596&oldid=141008 5* 03None1 5* (+81) 10/*  */
< 1739070304 458708 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1739070335 933545 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 JOIN #esolangs op_4 :op_4
> 1739070882 351144 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151597&oldid=151570 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+3131) 10Added a heap of definitions
> 1739071437 371562 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151598&oldid=151597 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+243) 10/* Statements */
> 1739071597 442771 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151599&oldid=151598 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+112) 10extended preamble
> 1739071831 314625 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151600&oldid=151599 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+63) 10/* Instructions */
> 1739071857 482757 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151601&oldid=151600 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (-10) 10/* Instructions */
> 1739071982 580289 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151602&oldid=151601 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+46) 10/* Instructions */
> 1739074271 559328 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151603&oldid=151602 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+38) 10/* Statements */
< 1739074926 382913 :lynndotpy6!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 QUIT :Quit: bye bye
< 1739074946 49520 :lynndotpy6!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 JOIN #esolangs lynndotpy :lynn
< 1739075026 162471 :lynndotpy6!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1739075108 585067 :lynndotpy6!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 JOIN #esolangs lynndotpy :lynn
> 1739075234 781023 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151604&oldid=151603 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+373) 10Added output commands
> 1739075522 387266 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151605&oldid=151604 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+320) 10Added hello, world
> 1739075946 113272 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TM (I am islptng)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151606&oldid=151576 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+46) 10
> 1739075986 38323 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151607&oldid=151605 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+11) 10/* Instructions */
> 1739076141 625094 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/StormLang discussion14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151608&oldid=151587 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+118) 10
> 1739076183 259903 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151609&oldid=151607 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+42) 10/* Statements */
> 1739076257 157639 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151610&oldid=151595 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+5) 1048 can interpret a language with a Truth machine, but can't itself make a Truth machine.
> 1739076337 601467 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151611&oldid=151609 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+51) 10Changed behavior of free
> 1739076916 657235 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151612&oldid=151611 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+153) 10Added cat example
> 1739076943 88819 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151613&oldid=151612 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+1) 10/* Cat */
> 1739076969 404773 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151614&oldid=151613 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+4) 10/* Statements */
> 1739077134 801192 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151615&oldid=151614 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+134) 10/* Cat */
> 1739077190 659213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151616&oldid=151615 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+1) 10/* Cat */
> 1739077437 96306 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151617&oldid=151616 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+78) 10added global constants
> 1739077498 615672 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151618&oldid=151610 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+623) 10
> 1739077954 602048 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Programming abillities of different esolangs14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151619&oldid=151596 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+308) 10Added MoreMathRPN
> 1739078543 139726 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151620&oldid=151583 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+15) 10Added pointing
> 1739078819 632136 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Programming abillities of different esolangs14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151621&oldid=151619 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-332) 10
< 1739078837 166127 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs lisbeths :lisbeths
> 1739078915 887330 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151622&oldid=151617 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+189) 10Added functions
> 1739079205 14454 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Programming abillities of different esolangs14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151623&oldid=151621 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-82) 10
< 1739080872 419623 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1739080888 869125 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
> 1739082333 542698 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151624&oldid=151622 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+64) 10Added transfer
> 1739082411 892540 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151625&oldid=151624 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+27) 10/* Expressions */
> 1739082511 746383 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151626&oldid=151625 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+3) 10/* Cat */
> 1739082589 478784 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151627&oldid=151626 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+2) 10/* Cat */
> 1739082643 357297 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151628&oldid=151627 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+3) 10/* Statements */
> 1739082671 464021 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151629&oldid=151628 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+0) 10/* Statements */
> 1739083758 776993 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151630&oldid=151629 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+541) 10Simple linked list example
> 1739083961 79239 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151631&oldid=151630 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+18) 10/* Statements */
> 1739084569 679838 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151632&oldid=151631 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+7) 10Added tossing value operator
> 1739084765 103755 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151633&oldid=151632 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+35) 10/* Expressions */
> 1739084845 694606 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151634&oldid=151633 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+2) 10/* Linked List */
> 1739084942 423663 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151635&oldid=151634 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+82) 10/* Linked List */
> 1739084965 574778 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151636&oldid=151635 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (-1) 10/* Linked List */
< 1739087999 460418 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1739088611 461352 :chomwitt!~alex@athedsl-25086.home.otenet.gr JOIN #esolangs chomwitt :realname
< 1739090140 119005 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1739090318 601441 :Trigon!~Trigon@c-24-10-151-155.hsd1.ut.comcast.net JOIN #esolangs * :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1739090440 944538 :Trigon!~Trigon@c-24-10-151-155.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PART #esolangs :Leaving
< 1739090490 329599 :Trigon!~Trigon@c-24-10-151-155.hsd1.ut.comcast.net JOIN #esolangs * :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1739090568 144109 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1739090645 696031 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
> 1739091663 624769 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Where is my esolang?14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151637 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+54) 10Created page with ""
> 1739091780 378461 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/My Rate to the user that I know14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151638&oldid=151463 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+270) 10
> 1739091838 143783 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/My Rate to the user that I know14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151639&oldid=151638 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+33) 10
> 1739092166 649267 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151640&oldid=151370 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+171) 10
> 1739092573 88892 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/List of "x bits, y bytes"14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151641&oldid=149598 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+30) 10
> 1739097122 688452 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:9 bytes :I14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151642&oldid=113213 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+54) 10
> 1739097307 186586 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nope. with no quine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151643&oldid=138136 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+155) 10
> 1739100223 909752 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Uhidklol14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151644&oldid=149788 5* 03Juanp32 5* (+47) 10/* other info */ im still alive as you can see
> 1739100256 217483 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Just talk14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151645&oldid=146793 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+49) 10
> 1739100337 468880 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nope. with no quine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151646&oldid=151643 5* 0347 5* (-91) 10that counts as an invisible charecter so, fail
< 1739100386 54561 :arbe!~arbe@89-64-67-56.dynamic.chello.pl JOIN #esolangs * :Unknown
< 1739101069 386759 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1739101559 718892 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151647&oldid=151578 5* 03Ais523 5* (+228) 10/* So do I need to move out all pages from the deleted category "Medium-Level"? */ I would recommend that
< 1739102649 193169 :mtm_!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1739102719 259163 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
< 1739103858 643890 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1739104928 269564 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Jp3214]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151648 5* 03Juanp32 5* (+293) 10Created page with "bf but its [[User:Juanp32]] texting insstead lol {| class="wikitable" ! jp32 !! bf |- | ok guys go left || < |- | ok guys go right || > |- | im a dot lol || . |- | its a comma. thats it || , |- | left side of box || [ |- | right side of box || ] |- | LINE FTW || - |- | that
> 1739104945 706427 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Jp3214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151649&oldid=151648 5* 03Juanp32 5* (-1) 10tyop
> 1739105024 117706 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Juanp3214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151650&oldid=149952 5* 03Juanp32 5* (+71) 10
< 1739106632 502048 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1739107668 680345 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.72.31.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :
< 1739107833 27449 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.72.31.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1739107924 119346 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net JOIN #esolangs m5zs7k :m5zs7k
< 1739109022 467253 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1739110263 23658 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nope. with no quine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151651&oldid=151646 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+162) 10
< 1739111048 441782 :molson__!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-EA0E-8239-AF87-8DE6-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
< 1739111254 418174 :molson_!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-BE34-A493-718E-A21C-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1739111833 517491 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:UrnEn14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151652&oldid=150394 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+84) 10/* ??? */ new section
> 1739111894 261757 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:UrnEn14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151653&oldid=151652 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+17) 10/* ??? */
> 1739112208 458219 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SLet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151654&oldid=151544 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+82) 10/* Examples */
< 1739114005 99618 :coat!~coat@user/coat JOIN #esolangs coat :coat
> 1739114312 731061 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07WaifuScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151655&oldid=149953 5* 03Juanp32 5* (+63) 10
> 1739114327 912117 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07WaifuScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151656&oldid=151655 5* 03Juanp32 5* (+2) 10/* hello world */
< 1739117265 924240 :arbe!~arbe@89-64-67-56.dynamic.chello.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1739118951 5322 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1739119556 154889 :arbe!~arbe@89-64-67-56.dynamic.chello.pl JOIN #esolangs * :Unknown
< 1739119628 670790 :molson__!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-EA0E-8239-AF87-8DE6-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1739119656 960272 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-EA0E-8239-AF87-8DE6-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
< 1739120117 796130 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
> 1739121577 301932 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Scratch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151657&oldid=149297 5* 03Win7HE 5* (+10) 10
> 1739121651 668419 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Albuquerque challenge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151658&oldid=148465 5* 03Win7HE 5* (+97) 10
> 1739121806 992902 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:(()())14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151659 5* 03(()()) 5* (+36) 10Created page with "I create esolangs. (()())"
> 1739121833 622315 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:(()())14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151660&oldid=151659 5* 03(()()) 5* (-11) 10
> 1739122021 47256 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Win7HE/randpage14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151661 5* 03Win7HE 5* (+18) 10Created page with "{{:Special:Random}"
> 1739122038 996999 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Win7HE/randpage14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151662&oldid=151661 5* 03Win7HE 5* (+1) 10
> 1739122117 952315 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Win7HE/randpage14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151663&oldid=151662 5* 03Win7HE 5* (+7) 10
> 1739122149 258364 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:(()())14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151664 5* 03Win7HE 5* (+91) 10Created page with "yes you do--~~~~"
> 1739122761 23793 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Win7HE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151665&oldid=151483 5* 03Win7HE 5* (-34) 10/* [Coming Soon] PUDDING! 25 */
> 1739124606 159539 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151666&oldid=151575 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+70) 10/* GitHub Versions */ adding v1.0-beta7
> 1739125253 842181 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151667&oldid=151666 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+73) 10/* Examples */ adding 'k' and 'l' threading test.
< 1739125281 467999 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina JOIN #esolangs Lykaina :Lykaina Wolfe
< 1739125736 23723 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1739125790 19303 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1739125826 164995 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1739125950 207195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151668&oldid=151667 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+458) 10/* Instructions */ Updating for v1.0-beta7.
> 1739127661 545910 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Squareroot1262114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151669&oldid=135332 5* 03Squareroot12621 5* (+66) 10Added Foldy.
> 1739128076 912627 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151670&oldid=151668 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+88) 10/* Instructions */ Filling in documentation for the "Experimental Commands" that should not need testing.
> 1739128125 845150 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07true14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151671&oldid=150500 5* 0347 5* (+54) 10/* Implementations */
> 1739128740 219600 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Foldy14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151672 5* 03Squareroot12621 5* (+2075) 10Created Foldy.
> 1739128975 210355 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151673&oldid=151670 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+141) 10/* Instructions */ Filling in blanks I forgot to fill in.
> 1739129175 78818 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Foldy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151674&oldid=151672 5* 03Squareroot12621 5* (+40) 10
> 1739129505 853889 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Foldy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151675&oldid=151674 5* 03Squareroot12621 5* (-16) 10
> 1739129717 867387 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Foldy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151676&oldid=151675 5* 03Squareroot12621 5* (+278) 10
> 1739130963 555241 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151677&oldid=151673 5* 03Lykaina 5* (-15) 10/* Instructions */ 'j' works properly.
< 1739131244 441953 :atrapado!~rpr@91.126.186.100 JOIN #esolangs roper :alt
> 1739131495 903031 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Xx14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151678&oldid=147272 5* 03Buckets 5* (+0) 10
> 1739131703 251749 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151679&oldid=151620 5* 03Buckets 5* (+15) 10
> 1739131709 542633 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Xx14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151680&oldid=151678 5* 03Buckets 5* (+23) 10
< 1739131730 234770 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1739132731 907235 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1739132946 397623 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:TheCanon214]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151681&oldid=151230 5* 03TheCanon2 5* (-31) 10idea forgotten
< 1739134197 10128 :atrapado!~rpr@91.126.186.100 QUIT :Quit: leaving
> 1739135998 861829 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Foldy14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151682 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+356) 10Created page with "So what happens if I wrote this?  1234}}}5678   1234}      }      }      5      6      7      8    1234}  8765}}      8     7     6  123?}  <- Here     }} Does it error? Does it overwrite the 4? Does the 4 stay? Does the machine running it explode?  ~~~~"
> 1739136409 103627 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fungeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151683&oldid=151677 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+188) 10Added "External Links"
< 1739136596 442181 :chomwitt!~alex@athedsl-25086.home.otenet.gr QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1739142382 457136 :arbe!~arbe@89-64-67-56.dynamic.chello.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1739142706 571796 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had ideas about design of version control system. Fossil has the global state stored as a unordered collection of artifacts, identified by their hash.
< 1739142756 151366 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would do something a bit different, where in addition to that, there is also a set of subsets of that, which specify which ones are treated as structural artifacts (rather than automatically doing or not doing according to their contents).
< 1739142915 946391 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(These separate subsets are "sub-repositories"; this way you can have multiple sub-repositories that share the same content artifacts if desired. Sub-repositories can still mention non-structural artifacts, but only structural artifacts will be specified within this subset. Probably most repositories don't need more than one sub-repository.)
< 1739144738 539471 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1739145853 324345 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1739145961 695910 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
> 1739146704 412727 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Calculus is fun 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:Pointing logo.png10]]": A maroon to red gradient, and in blue, a capital p with an asterisk to it's right and a right pointing arrow above.
> 1739146969 650562 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151685&oldid=151636 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+136) 10Added logo
> 1739147238 920538 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151686&oldid=151685 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+153) 10added infobox
> 1739147405 729000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151687&oldid=151686 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (-11) 10Changed number syntax
> 1739148361 607045 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151688&oldid=151687 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+293) 10How pointers in pointing work
> 1739148575 162810 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151689&oldid=151688 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (-2) 10/* Pointer manipulation */
> 1739148888 90692 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151690&oldid=151689 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+0) 10/* Pointer manipulation */
> 1739150180 496509 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151691&oldid=151690 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (-19) 10remove exponentiation
< 1739150494 305228 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-EA0E-8239-AF87-8DE6-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving
> 1739150759 519895 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/StormLang discussion14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151692&oldid=151608 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+556) 10/* islptng's suggestions */
< 1739150992 467822 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-EA0E-8239-AF87-8DE6-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
< 1739151160 843480 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-EA0E-8239-AF87-8DE6-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Client Quit
< 1739151444 865849 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1739151848 95443 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-3851-6F01-7106-4C34-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
> 1739153806 334890 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151693&oldid=151691 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (-1) 10/* Instructions */
< 1739156114 624591 :GregorR!~GregorR@71.19.155.102 QUIT :Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)
< 1739156145 461517 :GregorR!~GregorR@71.19.155.102 JOIN #esolangs GregorR :Gregor Richards
> 1739158175 592706 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Albuquerque challenge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151694&oldid=151658 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+2020) 10
> 1739158191 893604 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Albuquerque challenge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151695&oldid=151694 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+4) 10
< 1739158482 772089 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina QUIT :Quit: Leaving
> 1739158524 677211 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/StormLang discussion14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151696&oldid=151692 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+549) 10
> 1739158930 371117 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/StormLang discussion14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151697&oldid=151696 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+390) 10
< 1739159601 632665 :Guest4!~Guest2@2001:4958:26fc:a901:3de5:16b:7cb6:679e JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Guest2
< 1739160003 271992 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org QUIT :Quit: I seem to have stopped.
< 1739160075 39979 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 JOIN #esolangs Taneb :Nathan van Doorn
> 1739161233 572776 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Albuquerque challenge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151698&oldid=151695 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+564) 10
> 1739162019 407223 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 031392 5*  10New user account
> 1739162164 941326 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Indicode14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151699&oldid=117127 5* 03Gilbert189 5* (+197) 10
> 1739162318 886114 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151700&oldid=151480 5* 031392 5* (+118) 10
< 1739165949 59846 :arbe!~arbe@89-64-67-56.dynamic.chello.pl JOIN #esolangs * :Unknown
< 1739166993 519023 :Guest4!~Guest2@2001:4958:26fc:a901:3de5:16b:7cb6:679e QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1739167222 104427 :Celeo!~Celeo@user/celeo JOIN #esolangs Celeo :Celeo
< 1739167474 26628 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
> 1739168017 707895 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Albuquerque challenge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151701&oldid=151698 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+2706) 10
> 1739168229 97089 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nope. with no quine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151702&oldid=151651 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+133) 10
< 1739169369 640157 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs lisbeths :lisbeths
> 1739169663 931369 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0710 digits, 100 digytes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151703&oldid=151582 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+100) 10
> 1739170042 479573 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/StormLang discussion14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151704&oldid=151697 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+539) 10
< 1739171419 512316 :Celeo!~Celeo@user/celeo QUIT :Quit: Celeo
> 1739172544 319071 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Albuquerque challenge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151705&oldid=151701 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+1308) 10
> 1739172724 279964 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Albuquerque challenge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151706&oldid=151705 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+3266) 10
< 1739172757 59915 :arbe!~arbe@89-64-67-56.dynamic.chello.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
> 1739172775 453041 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Albuquerque challenge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151707&oldid=151706 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+26) 10
> 1739175019 957584 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Albuquerque challenge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151708&oldid=151707 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+6596) 10
< 1739175492 515808 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1739175613 952635 :arbe!~arbe@89-64-67-56.dynamic.chello.pl JOIN #esolangs * :Unknown
> 1739175678 64218 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:^Romn14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151709&oldid=149722 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+80) 10
> 1739175747 830379 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:MihaiEso14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151710&oldid=151084 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+113) 10/* ^Romn */ new section
> 1739175874 350203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07`Romn14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151711 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+372) 10Created page with "`Romn is an Pseudonatural language designed by PSTF.  Because [[^Romn]] is occupied, I had to use different symbol(In my design it was left brocket but it is invalid).  == Syntax == Just Romanian.  == Examples ==  == Categories and References == [[Category:Languages]
< 1739175985 270241 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
> 1739176089 805466 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07`Romn/Examples14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151712 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1056) 10Created page with "{{Back|`Romn}}  == Hello, world! ==  Ieire "Bun oameni buni!". == A+B Problem ==  Introducei dou numere ntregi de la utilizator i apoi imprimai suma lor. == Collatz sequence == 
 Introducei un numr ntreg de la utilizator, apoi atribuii-l lui x. Repetai 
> 1739176137 975052 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07`Romn14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151713&oldid=151711 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+102) 10
> 1739176188 842695 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151714&oldid=151679 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+32) 10
> 1739176379 140128 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/StormLang discussion14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151715&oldid=151704 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+80) 10
< 1739176689 108869 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :maeve (she/her)
> 1739180641 148182 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Page crapper from explain xkcd 214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151716&oldid=137007 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1131) 10
< 1739188989 442388 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1739189147 448580 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1739190084 29809 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SLet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151717&oldid=151654 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+287) 10
> 1739192132 410015 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MSFE++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151718&oldid=140615 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+170) 10
< 1739192264 924506 :arbe!~arbe@89-64-67-56.dynamic.chello.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
> 1739192300 770501 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MSFE++14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151719&oldid=151718 5* 03Cycwin 5* (-4) 10
> 1739192388 384660 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MSFE++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151720&oldid=151719 5* 03Cycwin 5* (-10) 10
< 1739192902 205168 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Moin
< 1739194096 461722 :arbe!~arbe@89-64-67-56.dynamic.chello.pl JOIN #esolangs * :Unknown
> 1739197640 95321 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/StormLang discussion14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151721&oldid=151715 5* 03None1 5* (+42) 10/* None1's Design */
> 1739204454 535989 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151722&oldid=150989 5* 03EvyLah 5* (+237) 10lipu linwuli [url] li toki ante instruction
< 1739205684 356036 :arbe!~arbe@89-64-67-56.dynamic.chello.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1739206532 460613 :arbe!~arbe@89-64-67-56.dynamic.chello.pl JOIN #esolangs * :Unknown
> 1739211028 613230 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Scratch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151723&oldid=151368 5* 03Rdococ 5* (+129) 10/* Unimplemented??? */ new section
< 1739211165 15327 :Celeo!~Celeo@user/celeo JOIN #esolangs Celeo :Celeo
< 1739211165 953565 :Celeo!~Celeo@user/celeo QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded
< 1739211374 74896 :Celeo!~Celeo@user/celeo JOIN #esolangs Celeo :Celeo
< 1739212023 951807 :chomwitt!~alex@2a02:587:7a13:5400:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd JOIN #esolangs chomwitt :realname
< 1739212173 937237 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1739212177 987194 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1739212275 622 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1739212755 950620 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1739212829 962151 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1739213469 871675 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Scratch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151724&oldid=151723 5* 0347 5* (+68) 10/* Unimplemented??? */
> 1739213478 756270 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Scratch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151725&oldid=151724 5* 0347 5* (+21) 10/* Unimplemented??? */
> 1739213692 969833 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Recs14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151726&oldid=150574 5* 03Jan jelo 5* (+52) 10/* pair left right */
< 1739215282 16957 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1739215293 327629 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1739215385 458855 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1739215595 277742 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1739216959 516892 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Quit: brb
< 1739217215 235167 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :maeve (she/her)
> 1739217517 470833 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 0347 5*  10moved [[02Pascgolf10]] to [[Compass]]
> 1739218030 111474 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Compass14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151729&oldid=151727 5* 0347 5* (+29) 10
< 1739219044 531995 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1739219755 927019 :chomwitt!~alex@2a02:587:7a13:5400:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
> 1739222481 538195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ractangle/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151730&oldid=151117 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-1) 10/* Stuff to continue */
> 1739222944 453295 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Compass14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151731&oldid=151729 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-1) 10/* Implementation */
< 1739223300 159080 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1739224865 582559 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151732&oldid=151564 5* 03Buckets 5* (+17) 10
> 1739224875 521303 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151733&oldid=151714 5* 03Buckets 5* (+12) 10
> 1739224888 378825 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Diner14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151734 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1843) 10Created page with "Diner is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2022, where you are at a Diner. {| class="wikitable" |+ Caption text |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | A number 1-9 || Pushes 1-9 on top of the stack. |- | Uh || Adds the top two values. |- | Um || 
> 1739224940 125676 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Diner14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151735&oldid=151734 5* 03Buckets 5* (+6) 10
> 1739224973 594651 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Diner14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151736&oldid=151735 5* 03Buckets 5* (+4) 10
> 1739225025 24924 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Diner14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151737&oldid=151736 5* 03Buckets 5* (-10) 10
< 1739225032 510390 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Night
< 1739225043 217179 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Peace.
> 1739225044 584369 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Diner14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151738&oldid=151737 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1) 10
> 1739225168 805880 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Compass14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151739&oldid=151731 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+84) 10/* Examples */
< 1739228100 600425 :Celeo!~Celeo@user/celeo QUIT :Quit: Celeo
< 1739230118 494049 :arbe!~arbe@89-64-67-56.dynamic.chello.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1739231627 971117 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1739233198 441562 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1739234044 58603 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :b_jonas
< 1739234668 967340 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1739235505 53159 :user3456!user3456@user/user3456 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1739236734 403778 :user3456!user3456@user/user3456 JOIN #esolangs user3456 :user3456
< 1739237746 362781 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :bash_macros(){ while read -r i; do eval "$( printf "%s" "$i" | awk "$1" ; )" ; done ; } ;
< 1739238208 117390 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Some sort of feeder for awk scripts?
< 1739238269 249863 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: What is an example of a computation that cannot be expressed with a pushdown automaton?
> 1739238304 154391 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: A classic example of a computation not expressible by a pushdown automaton is the **Halting Problem**. This problem asks whether a given program will eventually halt (finish execution) or run forever. A pushdown automaton can only process finite state machines, and the Halting Problem involves determining the halting behavior of an arbitrary...
> 1739238304 156335 PRIVMSG #esolangs :program, which requires an infinite amount of information.
< 1739238334 984672 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: What is an example of a computation that cannot be expressed with a Turing-complete automaton?
> 1739238350 767310 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: A computation that cannot be expressed with a Turing-complete automaton is the halting problem. This problem asks whether a given program will eventually halt (stop running) or run forever. There's no algorithm that can definitively answer this question for all programs, making it a fundamental undecidable problem.
< 1739238449 528196 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: What is an example of a computation that cannot be expressed with a Turing-complete automaton, even with an oracle for the Halting Problem?
> 1739238492 620796 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: The halting problem itself is a classic example. A Turing-complete automaton can't definitively determine if any given program will halt or loop forever. This is because the Halting Problem is undecidable, meaning there's no algorithm that can solve it for all programs. Even with an oracle for the Halting Problem, the automaton would still be...
> 1739238492 621009 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unable to solve the problem for all programs.
< 1739238926 50202 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: What is the Turing degree of the Halting Problem?
> 1739239026 991621 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: The Halting Problem is **undecidable** in the sense that there is no algorithm that can determine, for any given program and input, whether the program will halt or run forever. Therefore, the Halting Problem is **not Turing-complete**. It's a fundamental problem in computer science, demonstrating the limits of what can be computed by a Turing...
> 1739239026 994183 PRIVMSG #esolangs :machine.
< 1739240567 976675 :molson_!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-3FCF-3803-CE4E-884B-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
< 1739240620 289875 :dbohdan!~dbohdan@user/dbohdan QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3.1 - https://znc.in
< 1739240638 931792 :dbohdan!~dbohdan@user/dbohdan JOIN #esolangs dbohdan :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1739240753 996627 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-3851-6F01-7106-4C34-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
> 1739241372 807214 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151740&oldid=150309 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+224) 10/* No Tag */ new section
> 1739241612 783367 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151741&oldid=151740 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+113) 10/* No Tag */
> 1739241642 788864 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Aadenboy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151742&oldid=150799 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+159) 10
> 1739241783 128657 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/About more Categories14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151743&oldid=136940 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+135) 10
> 1739242051 722698 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Some useless code14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151744&oldid=150033 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+115) 10
< 1739242204 749044 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hm.
< 1739242218 894893 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: What is the Turing degree of the Beeping Busy Beaver Problem?
< 1739242222 591984 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This might not be in the wiki.
> 1739242233 836829 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: The Beeping Busy Beaver Problem is **incomputable** in the Turing degree. Here's why: * **The problem:** It involves a program that runs forever, and its halting problem is undecidable. * **Turing degree:** The Turing degree measures the complexity of a problem. A problem is considered "incomputable" if it cannot be solved by any Turing machine. *...
> 1739242233 839637 PRIVMSG #esolangs :**Conclusion:** The Beeping Busy Beaver Problem is a classic example of a problem that cannot be solved by any Turing machine, making it incomputable.
< 1739242264 570714 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was hoping for "one" and "two" respectively. Oh well.
> 1739242391 988998 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Ook!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151745&oldid=101131 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+23) 10
< 1739242417 194117 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1739242436 949315 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1739242865 249479 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1739242886 806015 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
> 1739243007 583999 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MSFE++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151746&oldid=151720 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+265) 10
> 1739243115 467596 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MSFE++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151747&oldid=151746 5* 03Cycwin 5* (-1) 10/* Truth Machine */
< 1739244814 735155 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net JOIN #esolangs m5zs7k :m5zs7k
> 1739246810 35718 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Memorial language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151748&oldid=146042 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+269) 10/* Criticism to this list */ new section
> 1739246951 148888 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07`Romn/Examples14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151749&oldid=151712 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+57) 10
> 1739247102 846705 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07`Romn/Examples14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151750&oldid=151749 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+5) 10
> 1739247200 168296 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07!Romanian14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151751&oldid=141398 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+110) 10/* Hello, world! */
> 1739247218 550480 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/BRING BACK THE OLD SANDBOX14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151752&oldid=151525 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+47) 10
> 1739247467 125748 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/BRING BACK THE OLD SANDBOX14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151753&oldid=151752 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+930) 10
> 1739247609 970822 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/BRING BACK THE OLD SANDBOX14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151754&oldid=151753 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+11291) 10
< 1739249650 81438 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1739249933 212945 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net JOIN #esolangs m5zs7k :m5zs7k
> 1739252560 442132 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MSFE++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151755&oldid=151747 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+7) 10/* Cat program */
> 1739252668 990986 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MSFE++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151756&oldid=151755 5* 03Cycwin 5* (-39) 10/* Examples */
> 1739252860 93415 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MSFE++14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151757&oldid=151756 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+114) 10/* Examples */
> 1739253028 791601 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MSFE++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151758&oldid=151757 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+138) 10/* Interpreter */
> 1739253092 199121 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MSFE++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151759&oldid=151758 5* 03Cycwin 5* (-4) 10/* Interpreter */
> 1739253127 125358 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MSFE++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151760&oldid=151759 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+0) 10/* Interpreter */
> 1739253583 588004 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Infinite commands???14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151761&oldid=151210 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+52) 10
> 1739259231 75856 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 overwrite10 02 5* 0347 5*  10uploaded a new version of "[[02File:My github profile read me.png10]]": how many times did i chainge this image again?
> 1739260017 838847 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SLet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151763&oldid=151717 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+71) 10
< 1739260026 622246 :chomwitt!~alex@2a02:587:7a13:5400:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd JOIN #esolangs chomwitt :realname
> 1739261742 609266 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Memorial language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151764&oldid=151748 5* 0347 5* (+82) 10/* Criticism to this list */
> 1739261835 937954 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/BRING BACK THE OLD SANDBOX14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151765&oldid=151754 5* 0347 5* (-12221) 10pointless bytes removed
< 1739262674 627000 :chomwitt!~alex@2a02:587:7a13:5400:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1739263421 25367 :arbe!~arbe@89-64-67-56.dynamic.chello.pl JOIN #esolangs * :Unknown
< 1739263523 770595 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1739264267 976860 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/BRING BACK THE OLD SANDBOX14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151766&oldid=151765 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+15) 10This garbled text is more in line with the code style of the language.
> 1739266137 756159 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Compass14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151767&oldid=151739 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+110) 10/* Language syntax */
> 1739266248 610404 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Compass14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151768&oldid=151767 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+75) 10/* Hello, world! */
< 1739266826 633138 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1739267763 88856 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` pkg-config --cflags --libs cairo
< 1739267765 498817 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Package cairo was not found in the pkg-config search path. \ Perhaps you should add the directory containing `cairo.pc' \ to the PKG_CONFIG_PATH environment variable \ No package 'cairo' found
< 1739267795 395569 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` find /usr/include -iname "*cairo*"
< 1739267797 177046 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :No output.
< 1739267811 859051 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` find /usr/include /usr/lib -iname "*cairo*"; echo all done
< 1739267822 992846 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm why would hackeso have cairo
< 1739267834 821584 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libcairo.so.2.11600.0 \ /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libcairo.so.2 \ /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libpangocairo-1.0.so.0 \ /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libpangocairo-1.0.so.0.4200.3 \ all done
< 1739267901 832665 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` /bin/ls -aF /usr/lib/pkgconfig
< 1739267903 280316 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​./ \ ../
< 1739267906 801217 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` /bin/ls -aF /usr/local
< 1739267907 920965 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​./ \ ../ \ bin/ \ etc/ \ games/ \ include/ \ lib/ \ man@ \ sbin/ \ share/ \ src/
< 1739267920 350765 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` /bin/ls -dl /usr/local
< 1739267921 532636 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :drwxrwsr-x 10 0 50 4096 Apr  6  2018 /usr/local
< 1739267940 549872 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` /bin/ls -aF /usr/local/lib
< 1739267941 901185 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​./ \ ../ \ python2.7/ \ python3.7/
< 1739267944 985014 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` /bin/ls -aF /usr/local/include
< 1739267946 152962 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​./ \ ../
< 1739267951 655626 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` /bin/ls -aF /usr/local/share
< 1739267952 777048 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​./ \ ../ \ ca-certificates/ \ fonts/ \ man/ \ pkgconfig/
< 1739267961 265559 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` /bin/ls -aF /usr/local/share/pkgconfig
< 1739267962 853204 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​./ \ ../
< 1739267965 387134 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` /bin/ls -aF /usr/share/pkgconfig
< 1739267966 648572 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​./ \ ../ \ gnome-icon-theme.pc \ shared-mime-info.pc \ swipl.pc \ systemd.pc
< 1739267987 590868 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` /bin/ls -ld /usr/include
< 1739267988 969786 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :drwxr-xr-x 41 0 0 16384 Jul  1  2024 /usr/include
< 1739267994 782108 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` /bin/ls -ld /usr/share
< 1739267996 15061 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :drwxr-xr-x 107 0 0 4096 May  1  2022 /usr/share
< 1739268002 996094 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` /bin/ls -aF /usr/share
< 1739268005 249051 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​./ \ ../ \ X11/ \ aclocal/ \ aclocal-1.16/ \ adduser/ \ alsa/ \ applications/ \ apport/ \ apps/ \ autoconf/ \ automake-1.16/ \ base-files/ \ base-passwd/ \ bash-completion/ \ binfmts/ \ bison/ \ bug/ \ build-essential/ \ ca-certificates/ \ ca-certificates-java/ \ calendar/ \ cdbs/ \ common-licenses/ \ dbus-1/ \ debconf/ \ debhelper/ \ debianutils/ \ dh-autoreconf/ \ dict/ \ distro-info/ \ doc/ \ doc-base/ \ dpkg/ \ emacs/ \ emacsen-common/ \ exim4/ \ fi
< 1739268018 163974 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` /bin/ls -aF /usr/share | tail -n+20
< 1739268019 801112 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ca-certificates/ \ ca-certificates-java/ \ calendar/ \ cdbs/ \ common-licenses/ \ dbus-1/ \ debconf/ \ debhelper/ \ debianutils/ \ dh-autoreconf/ \ dict/ \ distro-info/ \ doc/ \ doc-base/ \ dpkg/ \ emacs/ \ emacsen-common/ \ exim4/ \ file/ \ fontconfig/ \ fonts/ \ games/ \ gcc-8/ \ gcj/ \ gdb/ \ gettext/ \ gettext-0.19.8/ \ gforth/ \ git-core/ \ gitweb/ \ glib-2.0/ \ gnupg/ \ groff/ \ guile/ \ i18n/ \ icons/ \ icu/ \ info/ \ initramfs-tools/ \ intltool-deb
< 1739268024 331755 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` /bin/ls -aF /usr/share | tail -n+40
< 1739268025 553321 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :fonts/ \ games/ \ gcc-8/ \ gcj/ \ gdb/ \ gettext/ \ gettext-0.19.8/ \ gforth/ \ git-core/ \ gitweb/ \ glib-2.0/ \ gnupg/ \ groff/ \ guile/ \ i18n/ \ icons/ \ icu/ \ info/ \ initramfs-tools/ \ intltool-debian/ \ java/ \ javascript/ \ keyrings/ \ libc-bin/ \ libthai/ \ libtool/ \ lintian/ \ locale/ \ man/ \ man-db/ \ maven-repo/ \ menu/ \ mercurial/ \ metainfo/ \ mime/ \ misc/ \ mysql-common/ \ numpy3/ \ pam/ \ pam-configs/ \ perl/ \ perl5/ \ pixmaps/ \ pkg-
< 1739268032 568955 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` /bin/ls -aF /usr/include
< 1739268033 671966 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​./ \ ../ \ FlexLexer.h \ X11/ \ aio.h \ aliases.h \ alloca.h \ ar.h \ argp.h \ argz.h \ arpa/ \ asm-generic/ \ assert.h \ bsd/ \ byteswap.h \ c++/ \ complex.h \ cpio.h \ crypt.h \ ctype.h \ curses.h \ cursesapp.h \ cursesf.h \ cursesm.h \ cursesp.h \ cursesw.h \ cursslk.h \ dialog.h \ dirent.h \ dlfcn.h \ dlg_colors.h \ dlg_config.h \ dlg_keys.h \ editline/ \ elf.h \ endian.h \ envz.h \ err.h \ errno.h \ error.h \ eti.h \ etip.h \ execinfo.h \ fcntl.h \
< 1739268161 242135 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry, I should have done that in private message
< 1739269073 940300 :arbe!~arbe@89-64-67-56.dynamic.chello.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1739269319 281225 :ManDeJan!3da94070ba@user/mandejan QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1739269319 887803 :dcreager!a9e780c4d1@2a03:6000:1812:100::136b QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1739269322 668785 :ursa-major!114efe6c39@2a03:6000:1812:100::11f3 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1739270321 591045 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Some useless code14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151769 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+91) 10Created page with " ++c=c++ + ++c;   warning: multiple unsequenced modifications to 'C' C=C*2+6"
< 1739271190 884590 :arbe!~arbe@89-64-67-56.dynamic.chello.pl JOIN #esolangs * :Unknown
< 1739272223 24639 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1739273703 653618 :dcreager!a9e780c4d1@2a03:6000:1812:100::136b JOIN #esolangs dcreager :Douglas Creager
< 1739273707 655047 :ManDeJan!3da94070ba@user/mandejan JOIN #esolangs ManDeJan :ManDeJan
< 1739273710 931721 :ursa-major!114efe6c39@2a03:6000:1812:100::11f3 JOIN #esolangs ursa-major :Bailey Bjornstad
> 1739274009 326906 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ractangle14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151770&oldid=151101 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (-1) 10Fix typo
< 1739274352 928904 :arbe!~arbe@89-64-67-56.dynamic.chello.pl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1739274597 334103 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/StormLang discussion14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151771&oldid=151721 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+669) 10
< 1739274800 566758 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :web.Tomos: points -42.10, score 0.81, rank 47/47
< 1739276200 16283 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1739277213 566247 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://github.com/memesmith0/mcrsh
> 1739278012 171336 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/StormLang discussion14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151772&oldid=151771 5* 03None1 5* (+174) 10/* None1's Design */
< 1739279452 487425 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1739281308 391907 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1739281856 448796 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :web.Tomos: points -28.83, score 3.80, rank 47/47 (--)
< 1739281928 550592 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Every time someone posts a program I get this warning in the logs: "Deprecation warning: Beginning with version 2.2.0, Channel#msg should not be used anymore. Use Channel#send instead."
< 1739282280 720585 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :web.Invincible: points -21.83, score 7.16, rank 47/47
< 1739283117 432577 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1739283232 27014 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/StormLang discussion14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151773&oldid=151772 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+824) 10
> 1739283299 295977 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/StormLang discussion14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151774&oldid=151773 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+20) 10
> 1739283471 823129 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Some useless code14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151775&oldid=151769 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+112) 10
< 1739284434 972954 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1739284991 561155 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151776&oldid=129436 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1051) 10/*  */ new section
> 1739285017 227492 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151777&oldid=151776 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+0) 10
> 1739285130 625897 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IPAfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151778&oldid=124840 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+9) 10
< 1739287691 178310 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1739289558 507274 :chomwitt!~alex@2a02:587:7a13:5400:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd JOIN #esolangs chomwitt :realname
< 1739289799 986825 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.72.31.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1739289832 937167 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.205.160.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1739290010 633256 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1739290264 211637 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, I found something weird about Windows. so on my work notebook, Windows 10 was originally installed with hungarian selected as UI language. I changed the UI language to english in settings long ago. Most of the interface of programs shipped with windows shows up correctly in english.
< 1739290483 463003 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :in the main windows of File Explorer, if I show the system menu either by left-clicking on the icon in the top left corner of the title bar or pressing alt+space or shift+right clicking the tray icon of the windows, the system menu of that window has its labels in hungarian. BUT if I right-click the title-bar, it shows the system menu with its
< 1739290483 966436 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :labels in english, and from that point on something changes about that specific file explorer window, and if I later show the system menu of the same window in any of the previous mentioned way, it shows up with labels in english. this doesn't affect other File Explorer windows.
< 1739290521 35450 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.205.160.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :
< 1739290821 29135 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had noticed earlier that the language of the system menu is inconsistent between programs, but I assumed it just depended on which program or window it was.
< 1739290879 375147 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :This is mostly cosmetic except in case of cmd consoles, that's why I wasn't paying attention to it.
> 1739290963 885251 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Morshu14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151779&oldid=120871 5* 03Squidmanescape 5* (+1248) 10
< 1739291889 419451 :dawids!~dawids@109.77.158.223 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1739294399 665989 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1739295515 105580 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I now found a very epic Sokoban-Solver named „Festival“, which works together very nicely with the GUI YASC
< 1739295531 796691 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Win64 though, but works epically well under WINE    😌
< 1739295551 25189 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Thanks for Your previous Hints regarding Sokoban (‑ aaaaand Sudoku also     😉)
< 1739295555 670861 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :*purrrrrr*      😸   =^.^=
< 1739295910 375153 :dawids!~dawids@109.77.158.223 QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1739297147 77574 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1739297859 963497 :chomwitt!~alex@2a02:587:7a13:5400:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1739297880 174235 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1739298288 955078 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1739298633 438612 :Celeo!~Celeo@user/celeo JOIN #esolangs Celeo :Celeo
< 1739299195 31942 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1739299248 945893 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1739299278 908421 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1739300494 120628 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Apic: I assume you know about the sokoban level generator https://www.linusakesson.net/games/autosokoban/
< 1739301013 736534 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: No, but i can imagine     😌
< 1739303640 146780 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1739303840 542759 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I have some level of academic interest in Sokoban generators, but haven't seen that one
< 1739303848 266837 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had a plan of my own but didn't fully get it to work
< 1739303945 872614 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: mostly unrelated to sokoban, have you ever found out if there's a fast algorithm to find two walks that share both endpoints in an input digraph?
< 1739303984 858649 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: no, I think I discussed that with you a while ago but didn't think about it more since
< 1739304045 886866 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok
< 1739304048 975666 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my actual problem was more complicated and that was one possible approach towards an approximate solution
< 1739304059 414538 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, you asked that question here and we discussed it
< 1739304074 175967 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it didn't seem any easier than the alternative routes
< 1739304118 470321 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1739304122 245145 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the more general problem I am trying to solve is the problem of compressing the reachability relation of a directed graph, in a way that's small on disk and efficient to query)
< 1739304953 848867 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1739305652 892606 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: hmm, I'm not too impressed by that Sokoban generator, I didn't find a difficult puzzle until puzzle 21, and that one was only difficult because it was hard to figure out which boxes are entirely trapped/useless to the solution and which ones aren't
< 1739305669 465934 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :these puzzles have lots of parts of the solution that are entirely independent of other parts, which seems inelegant to me
< 1739305745 40695 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :of course, the puzzles are random so you won't see the same ones I do (but I am using seed 2001748222, so you could check that way)
< 1739306118 887860 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't like to play sokoban so I can't really judge their quality
< 1739306218 107502 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but these levels are mostly solvable by the strategy of "avoid making moves that make the game unwinnable"
< 1739306237 466651 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and just differ in how obvious the causes of unwinnability are
< 1739306438 71088 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I once spent a month very ill and hardly able to do anything, I solved (handmade) Sokoban puzzles to pass the time – a month doing almost nothing but Sokoban gives you quite some insights into it
< 1739306757 60908 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, 26 is good
< 1739306782 543197 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the first proper storage puzzle I've seen, and those are really the heart of Sokoban
< 1739306805 337072 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the problem being finding places to put boxes temporarily so that you can move boxes past them and then put them back)
> 1739307290 402243 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:BoundedBeans14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151780&oldid=151457 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+36) 10
< 1739307487 785570 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Can other puzzles such as Hero Hearts puzzles be generated also?
< 1739308306 194807 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :28 is the first one that feels anything like a traditional Sokoban puzzle
< 1739308383 485746 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and 29 is trivially easy, so the difficulty curving doesn't seem to be going so well
< 1739308513 703486 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :30 is also quite easy, and gave me quite some insight into the algorithm (it looks like the sort of problem a computer might incorrectly think is hard)
< 1739308559 7497 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1739308892 29721 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Compass14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151781&oldid=151768 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-16) 10/* Language syntax */
> 1739308915 624704 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Compass14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151782&oldid=151781 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-2) 10/* Hello, world! */
< 1739311201 417423 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :after a row of moderate-difficult puzzles, 40 was really really easy
< 1739311478 860177 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I skipped ahead to 100 and 1000, neither of those was too hard either
< 1739311496 904702 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that algorithm probably isn't the way forward when it comes to making interesting Sokobans, only a small proportion are interesting
< 1739311896 456680 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1739311924 955045 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :1001 is pretty good though
< 1739311985 703368 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca JOIN #esolangs zzo38 :zzo38
< 1739312226 924608 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see
< 1739313745 752929 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :☺
< 1739313748 132027 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night!
> 1739317510 485873 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151783&oldid=151700 5* 03NNlk05 5* (+69) 10/* Introductions */
> 1739317517 806137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StereotypeAssembly14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151784 5* 03NNlk05 5* (+150) 10Created page with "{{WIP}}  StereotypeAssembly is a stereotype, hackerly language built to resemble assembly language by [[User:NNlk05]].  [[Category:Works-in-Progress]]"
< 1739319097 945990 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1739319897 455702 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1739320587 443729 :Celeo!~Celeo@user/celeo QUIT :Quit: Celeo
< 1739321396 232549 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Killed (tantalum.libera.chat (Nickname regained by services))
< 1739321400 324867 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1739322423 462015 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina JOIN #esolangs Lykaina :Lykaina Wolfe
< 1739325340 424127 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1739325378 463568 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1739325391 460398 :simcop2387_!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1739325479 652433 :simcop2387_!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 NICK :simcop2387
> 1739326568 959781 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Interlude14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151785&oldid=81264 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+7) 10Rectified the Hello, world! and truth-machine examples, which seemed to impute a stack rather than a queue, supplanted the cat program, which also relied on a last-in first-out (LIFO) data structure, by a perpetual variant, and amended the claim about a stack's involvement 
> 1739326688 789421 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Interlude14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151786&oldid=151785 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+170) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the Interlude programming language on GitHub.
> 1739326743 822463 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SLet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151787&oldid=151763 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+180) 10
< 1739327718 65551 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1739330052 926899 :molson_!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-3FCF-3803-CE4E-884B-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1739334143 673229 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina QUIT :Quit: Leaving
> 1739334206 747826 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/PSTF Again Chapter VII14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151788 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+5255) 10Created page with "[[Translated ZhongWen/Mihai Again8]] is still not enough, so let's make it CRZIER!!!! ah..."
< 1739334238 509823 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-F41D-C13C-3E44-1CC-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
> 1739334264 272399 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/Mihai Again814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151789&oldid=141860 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+93) 10
> 1739345881 342469 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/islptng14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151790 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+1521) 10Created page with "1. [[Translated_ZhongWen/PSTF_Again_Chapter_VII|]] 
  1696 Tnt  1709    n4mEasy Some   N4M CRF   1696  1 2  1696 Tnt     n4m  crf 1696 Tnt  n4m  DN 1709 crf  1739346213 556650 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151791&oldid=151790 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+2335) 10
> 1739346357 646176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151792&oldid=151791 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+33) 10
> 1739346712 191987 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151793&oldid=151792 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+407) 10
> 1739346870 614741 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151794&oldid=151793 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+408) 10
< 1739347130 404911 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1739347130 478761 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Client Quit
< 1739347189 486581 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1739347749 402103 :molson_!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-F41D-C13C-3E44-1CC-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
< 1739347959 364041 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-F41D-C13C-3E44-1CC-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1739348029 151231 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151795&oldid=151329 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+1892) 10
< 1739348096 182070 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs lisbeths :lisbeths
< 1739349768 145738 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1739350508 347488 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/PSTF Again Chapter VII14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151796&oldid=151788 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+77) 10
> 1739354688 946876 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/PSTF Again Chapter VIII14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151797 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+6069) 10Created page with "1. [[Translated ZhongWen/islptng|]] 
  16961122 HN2 1696 HN2polya J2C  1709  HN 2CRF ZF 2 FIV ..."
> 1739354723 787816 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151798&oldid=151794 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+51) 10
> 1739354797 935617 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/StormLang discussion14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151799&oldid=151774 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+18) 10
< 1739356717 563549 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1739360303 5126 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1739362915 921819 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1739363066 180 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
> 1739363807 613715 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151800&oldid=151783 5* 03Allen123456hello 5* (+164) 10/* Introductions */
> 1739364126 858488 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0799 bottles of beer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151801&oldid=150808 5* 03Allen123456hello 5* (+1355) 10/* List of implementations */ add  Language
> 1739364254 544478 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/StormLang discussion14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151802&oldid=151799 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+0) 10MY NAME IS NOT ISLPTNG IT'S islptng PUT MY NAME DOWN ARGHHHHHHHHHHH
> 1739364443 637039 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:XKCD Random Number14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151803&oldid=150375 5* 03Allen123456hello 5* (+297) 10/* Implementations */ add  language
> 1739364461 113532 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SickPig14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151804&oldid=101568 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+193) 10
> 1739364652 203372 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/StormLang discussion14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151805&oldid=151802 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+119) 10I'm sorry to have entered your username incorrectly. However, I always thought that your username was actually an abbreviation, so I used capitalization. If you ignore the case, this username is also correct.
< 1739364815 400164 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
> 1739364822 498109 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151806&oldid=151541 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+209) 10
> 1739364926 173567 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/My words14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151807&oldid=151462 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1) 10
< 1739365225 42046 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi
> 1739365425 701560 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07JC-071514]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151808 5* 03Allen123456hello 5* (+505) 10new esolang
> 1739365445 802361 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07JC-071514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151809&oldid=151808 5* 03Allen123456hello 5* (+12) 10/* Commands */
> 1739365503 731327 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151810&oldid=151733 5* 03Allen123456hello 5* (+14) 10/* J */
> 1739365562 610431 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07JC-071514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151811&oldid=151809 5* 03Allen123456hello 5* (+9) 10/* JC-0715 */
> 1739365626 474130 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07JC-071514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151812&oldid=151811 5* 03Allen123456hello 5* (-9) 10/* JC-0715 */
> 1739366066 889677 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151813&oldid=151806 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+168) 10
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> 1739370493 417360 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07OwOlang14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151814 5* 03BrainFuckGirl 5* (+3408) 10Created Page for OwOlang
> 1739370543 297845 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07OwOlang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151815&oldid=151814 5* 03BrainFuckGirl 5* (-1) 10
> 1739371616 495826 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/StormLang discussion14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151816&oldid=151805 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+7) 10
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< 1739377033 992317 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1739377316 67011 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.205.160.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
> 1739378200 840223 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zudjn14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151817&oldid=145864 5* 03DevThatCodes 5* (+2122) 10/* Links */
> 1739378383 654828 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zudjn14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151818&oldid=151817 5* 03DevThatCodes 5* (-21) 10
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< 1739385737 951971 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
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> 1739391439 884391 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Diner14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151819&oldid=151738 5* 03Buckets 5* (+16) 10
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> 1739391811 964582 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07,*"':;!?.+14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151823 5* 03Buckets 5* (+3285) 10Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=,*"':;!?.+_}} ,*"':;!?.+_ is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2024, To be specific It wasn't named But It's just The order of the Commands Shown. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands in order !! Instructions, also in or
> 1739391872 120537 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sipes14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151824&oldid=150654 5* 03Buckets 5* (+2) 10
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< 1739393171 216719 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm trying to think about languages that can be implemented with either of two different type systems, and what advantages and drawbacks this has, and which combinations there are good example for.
< 1739393292 417591 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So let's say at first approximation that there are three possible type systems. Untyped means that neither the compile time nor the runtime tries to follow what type values have, and so there's no type dispatching, if you want both an integer addition and a floating-point addition function you need to use different names for them. Typical examples are x86 machine code or forth. 
< 1739393354 379964 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Dynamically typed means that the runtime tries to follow what type each value has, and so you may be able to dispatch on the type of input values, or at least check them to catch type errors at runtime. A typical example is Cpython.
< 1739393429 760281 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Statically typed means that you figure out the type of values at compile time, and then you typically don't need to tag them at runtime, you can do dispatching between integer and floating point addition at compile time, and at runtime the code that you compiled to already knows which of these two operations you need.
< 1739393584 886228 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Now if you have an untyped language, then it's usually not hard to make a dynamically typed interpreter for it. The dynamically typed interpreter is less efficient, but more easily able to catch type errors in the code. Sometimes you also want to make the dynamically typed interpreter memory safe too, which is easy in most cases, but can be hard if the program that was originally written for a language 
< 1739393590 949567 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :designed to be untyped does some scary tricks like casting an integer to a pointer.
< 1739393632 22716 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Something that does not quite match, but is similar, to the first and second, is MESH:Hero and Free Hero Mesh; MESH:Hero uses the first kind, but operations can usually be mapped directly to Free Hero Mesh which uses the second kind. It is like the example you specify, actually.
< 1739393659 152432 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you have a dynamically typed language then you often can't make an untyped interpreter for it, because the code will sometimes deliberately want to use the type tagging information as a free distinguished union. 
< 1739393704 809005 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :However, some things will result in "type mismatch" errors that do not do so in MESH:Hero, but this usually indicates a bug. (A case where it doesn't is using the address of objects for random numbers, although this is usually undesirable anyways.)
< 1739393726 303727 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So to design a language that can be ran either untyped or dynamically typed, you just design it as untyped but forbid most of the cases when the program would use the wrong type -- you can still allow some of them, which the dynamic interpreter may have to support with implicit conversions.
< 1739393734 613637 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :But, you are right, and they are the kind of things I had noticed when designing Free Hero Mesh, actually.
< 1739393746 56921 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :And, it does work much like what you described.
< 1739393908 105059 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Now if you start from a statically typed language, you can usually *compile* it to an untyped language, but you may not be able to *interpret* it with an untyped interpreter, because there can be compile-time type dispatching necessary to distinguish between overloaded functions.
< 1739393995 963712 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But if you design a new language, you can design it to work as either untyped or statically typed. The program will be more verbose because it can't use compile-time type dispatching, but will still often need some type annotations, such as to give the type of parameters for a function definition.
< 1739394142 610289 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you start from a statically typed language, then of course you can compile it to dynamically typed, but you can very often also *interpret* it dynamically typed. You can dispatch on the types of function arguments in a way that gives the same results for the two ways to interpret the language, though you can't dispatch on the return types only, because that's possible only in a statically typed 
< 1739394145 286714 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, I suppose that will work, and may be useful for some kind of uses. (It might be useful for some kinds of intermediate code that is meant to be either interpreted or compiled, and be portable to multiple types of computers, maybe.)
< 1739394148 618071 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :language.
< 1739394160 632298 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I mean for one that is designed to be either untyped or statically typed)
< 1739394182 888445 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But it's possible to design a language to work as either statically typed or dynamically typed, in which case again the program will need type annotations for the statically typed version.
< 1739394193 199936 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Olvashato does this by the way.)
< 1739394331 114546 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :It may also be possible to make it so that a compiler supports combining them, e.g. that anything that does not have a type annotation will use a tagged union and run less efficiently when compiled to statically typed code.
< 1739394364 379940 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was thinking about this mostly because I want to design the esolang whose gimmick is using columns in the source code as variable names, and I want to figure out what type system that language has. I want to support at least two types, as in fixed-size integer and array of those integers, so I need some type system. Once I have two types working it's easy to extend the language with more types later.
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< 1739394505 818178 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This isn't the only problem, there are other things that I have to decide about this language.
< 1739394674 994403 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also want to add the additional gimmick that you can make the source code right-aligned and have programmer-defined tab stops, which makes this esoteric because there is probably no existing editor that supports that in full generality.
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> 1739395044 593715 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zudjn14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151828&oldid=151818 5* 03DevThatCodes 5* (-31) 10
> 1739395153 345557 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zudjn14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151829&oldid=151828 5* 03DevThatCodes 5* (+4) 10
> 1739395347 123750 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zudjn14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151830&oldid=151829 5* 03DevThatCodes 5* (+47) 10
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< 1739397103 717454 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Static typing has the advantage that it can allow for better optimizations, especially the program wants to be portable and compiled to different platforms, and it allows you to use existing optimizing compiler backends.
< 1739397189 549961 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I could of course have two variants, so if you write your program without type annotations then it only works interpreted, but if you add type annotations (and get your types consistent in first place) then you can also use a hypothetical statically typed compiler.
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< 1739398554 138846 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If I want to allow both untyping and dynamic typing, that actually makes static typing easier to add, because the untyping means functions can't dispatch on types, so I rarely need type annotations. If a value either comes from a return value of an ordinary function or is passed as an argument to an ordinary function then its type is fixed. I only need type annotations when the value is both created and 
< 1739398560 169786 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :consumed only by builtins that can handle generic types.
< 1739398687 586253 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The reason why I don't want too many type annotations is that I want every function definition to know at compile time how many parameters and return values it has, because I do want to dispatch function calls at compile time on the number of arguments and return values. (Functions are named only, not first-class values.)
< 1739398705 565866 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ok, that's not a very clear explanation admittedly.
< 1739398710 304053 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And it might even be wrong.
< 1739398733 542600 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll have to think more about this.
< 1739398962 343858 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I have an idea. What I should do is that function arguments and return values should be listed in the same place, at the function head, rather than listing return values at a return statement or the end of the function scope or something like that. The drawback is that it makes the function head and return statements look less like an ordinary call syntactically, but that's fine.
< 1739399049 418448 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sorry, I know this monologing is hard to follow.
< 1739399403 508861 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :of course some of this works because this is to be a small toy language
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< 1739402450 181271 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: re: your typing discussion: I have been seriously considering "a statically typed language that uses monomorphization, but the debug builds compile into a dynamically typed language instead to save compile time"
< 1739402471 924256 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, if you aren't doing a properly optimizing build, you save monomorphization time by just using dynamic typing instead
< 1739402517 3674 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, does type erasure count as / imply dynamic typing?
< 1739402536 453760 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it has to, a type-erased value needs to carry a vtable around so that you can actually call methods on it
< 1739402584 913055 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, Prolog famoulsy has arguments and return values all mixed together in the function head (and even in the function call)
< 1739402598 273220 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it makes complex expressions a little awkward to write
< 1739402626 812656 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. length_plus_one(List, LengthPlusOne) :- length(List, Length), LengthPlusOne is Length + 1.
< 1739402660 661559 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :have to have two separate "statements" to do the length measurement and the addition because the function doesn't have a traditional return value to add 1 to
< 1739402783 485945 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, the multiple distinct type systems don't have to be related to each other. They don't even have to have the same signature for the type-checking function.
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> 1739405975 523565 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Luihum 5*  10New user account
> 1739406251 331056 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151831&oldid=151800 5* 03Luihum 5* (+176) 10introduction
< 1739407402 705814 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :On GitHub, why is payload.preloadedQueries[0].result.data.repository.search.pageInfo.hasNextPage is always true and hasPreviousPage is always false, regardless of the page number?
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> 1739409599 377912 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TMIDL14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151832 5* 03Luihum 5* (+1531) 10created the page, with infobox and interpreter directive list
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> 1739417389 963709 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TMIDL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151833&oldid=151832 5* 03Luihum 5* (+604) 10added more stuff about extensions
> 1739420080 209901 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151834&oldid=150935 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+607) 10/* Commands */
> 1739420242 197348 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151835&oldid=151834 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+239) 10
> 1739420972 978950 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Yunasha Hotora 5*  10New user account
> 1739422612 748485 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151836&oldid=151831 5* 03Yunasha Hotora 5* (+217) 10/* Introductions */
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> 1739425359 475342 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/PSTF Again Chapter VIII14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151837&oldid=151797 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+56) 10
> 1739425378 198948 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/PSTF Again Chapter VIII14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151838&oldid=151837 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+0) 10
> 1739425830 2677 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/Mihai Again Chapter IX14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151839 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+6376) 10Created page with "1. Put this: [[Translated ZhongWen/PSTF Again Chapter VIII|]] in the machine 
        ..."
> 1739425855 991052 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/Mihai Again Chapter IX14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151840&oldid=151839 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+17) 10
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> 1739427306 277975 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/Mihai Again Chapter IX14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151841&oldid=151840 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-33) 10Translation
> 1739427324 710156 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nya~*kwrgsfish+-HQ9`:'"rbtAzxdi814]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151842 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+3038) 10Created page with "Nya~*kwrgsfish+-HQ9`:'"rbtAzxdi8, or Nya~-r%23kcd#TbjSV\d\\\\zESGmcdips is designed by PSTF.  = Language Overview = Nya~*kwrgsfish+-HQ9`:'"rbtAzxdi8 is turing complete, uses an accumulator, a tape with 114514 cells, a stack, a buffer, and 
> 1739427392 767110 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151843&oldid=151821 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+62) 10
< 1739429254 353565 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: yes, you could have a language where in the memory safe dynamically typed version adding an offset to a pointer calls a different function than adding integers, while in another untyped version they call the same function since there's no way to tell if the input is an integer or pointer.
< 1739429300 384060 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: That's very close to a real example for me!
< 1739429303 869328 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or similarly you can have a language like C where the same integer (used as an array index) or pointer type can have different sizes on different implementations, 32-bit on one and 64 bits on another
< 1739429338 298882 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you write "long" and windows will use a 32-bit integer while linux will use a 64-bit integer
< 1739429352 24369 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :RPython has its own type system which checks that the FFI is internally sane and that the foreign primitives are C-compilable. But that's not the same thing as the C linker's type system which is used during the final compilation step.
< 1739429352 746041 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :similarly for long double
< 1739429406 132899 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And neither of those are Pyflakes' name-oriented syntax checker, which I used up until it broke Python 2.7 support a few years ago. So much more useful than any other linter IMO.
< 1739429430 973566 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...RPython also has its own idea of "long". They support Win32, you see.
< 1739429531 806751 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also C++ and Rust allow calling C functions natively, but they and C have three different ideas of the type restrictions on what function types are equal and what type you are allowed to use to call a function, and their interactions are not really well documented
< 1739429653 696405 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in the case of C and C++ this is because both the C and C++ language standard committees refuse to try to document the interactions, so the only documentation there is are the non-portable ones for ABIs of specific implementations; in the case of Rust the specification is still somewhat lacking but that probably will get fixed in time
< 1739429769 143859 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not even sure there's a sane consistent description of how C and C++ function calls should work at the language typing level (as opposed to what actually happens at ABI level after the compiler discards the detailed type information and the linker links C and C++ compilation units) 
< 1739429809 317378 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean there is, but it would require relaxing the C++-only rules a lot too
< 1739429877 72914 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so if you want to write a type-checking linker (which could be useful to check if your program is portable to possible future implementations with strange ABI rules) you'd have to figure this out
< 1739429890 264756 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was wondering about this recently
< 1739430129 355239 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's actually a really nasty example, because IIRC Rust and C have different ideas of what an "enum" looks like.
< 1739431603 282678 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I think enums are mostly fine. Rust now allows the repr attribute for enums which gives a specific representation for them, while C enums are just of an ordinary integer type. C++ class enums would be a problem, but then C++ has lots of other non-C types that don't have a representation fixed enough that you could interact with it through a C abi, so that's also fine.
< 1739431840 726184 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Sure. All types are ctypes, etc.
< 1739431848 757933 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...Sorry. I'm not sour at you. I'm sour at C.
< 1739432456 883960 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1739432853 560053 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://github.com/memesmith0/mcr3sh
< 1739433002 643195 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lovely art, thanks.
> 1739433281 749742 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/PSTF Again Chapter IX14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151844 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+6285) 10Created page with "Translated ZhongWen/Mihai Again Chapter IX|You computer has a severe errL$D3h$&% ?' L$H3h(*) ?+ L$L3h,.- ?/ L$P3h021 ?3 ?6$T3h45 ?7 ?:$X3h89 ?; ?p<=? ? F  ?~#?~nDl$ ? ?\$#\$ 3\$?D$$H$$  ??D$03D$(
> 1739433319 890968 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/Mihai Again Chapter IX14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151845&oldid=151841 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+49) 10
< 1739433490 53849 :Celeo!~Celeo@user/celeo QUIT :Quit: Celeo
< 1739435106 532370 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1739435526 93109 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151846 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1314) 10Created page with "Here shows users that is also on other place.  # PrySigneToFry: PrySigneToFry(Backrooms Fandom, Esolang Wiki), LittleLWSS(Conway's game of life Wiki/Forum), Xdi8Loverian(Xdi8 Wiki), (Whole Miraheze, including Mu
> 1739436018 850008 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151847&oldid=151461 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+330) 10
< 1739436127 630704 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1739436931 655061 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/PSTF Again Chapter IX14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151848&oldid=151844 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+46) 10
> 1739437212 36446 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/Mihai Again Chapter X14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151849 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+5510) 10Created page with "Translated ZhongWen/Mihai Again Chapter IX|You computer has a severe errL$D3h$&% ?' L$H3h(*) ?+ L$L3h,.- ?/ L$P3h021 ?3 ?6$T3h45 ?7 ?:$X3h89 ?; ?p<=? ? F  ?~#?~nDl$ ? ?\$#\$ 3\$?D$$H$$  ??D$03D$(? D$$
> 1739437265 950132 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/Mihai Again Chapter X14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151850&oldid=151849 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (-1) 10
> 1739437409 741153 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151851&oldid=151846 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+33) 10
> 1739438145 511896 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/islptng Zwei14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151852 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+5412) 10Created page with "Translated ZhongWen/PSTF Again Chapter IX|You computer has a severe errL$D3h$&% ?' L$H3h(*) ?+ L$L3h,.- ?/ L$P3h021 ?3 ?6$T3h45 ?7 ?:$X3h89 ?; ?p<=? ? F  ?~#?~nDl$ ? ?\$#\$ 3\$?D$$H$$  ??D$03D$(? D$$(..."
> 1739438201 860667 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/islptng Zwei14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151853&oldid=151852 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-4) 10
> 1739438256 121399 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/islptng Zwei14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151854&oldid=151853 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-18) 10
> 1739438329 576984 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/Mihai Again Chapter X14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151855&oldid=151850 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+97) 10
> 1739442700 125309 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/islptng Zwei14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151856&oldid=151854 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+47) 10
> 1739442996 904456 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/Mihai Again Chapter XI14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151857 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+5624) 10Created page with "1. [[Translated ZhongWen/islptng Zwei|]]Esolang:undefined1234|You computer has a severe errL$D3h$&% ?' L$H3h(*) ?+ L$L3h,.- ?/ L$P3h021 ?3 ?6$T3h45 ?7 ?:$X3h89 ?; ?p<=? ? F  ?~#?~nDl$ ? ?\$#\$ 3\$?D$
> 1739443879 190838 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MSFE++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151858&oldid=151760 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+1) 10/* Interpreter */
< 1739444536 411678 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1739445130 376041 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere/an esolang for my puter14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151859 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+788) 10Created page with "{{WIP}} SOOOOO i had this idea. whats the simplest computer i can make. like what parts do i need to make a turing machine(technically it would never be a turing machine cuz memory but uknow), and so i set out for a quest. can u build a l
< 1739446731 530210 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :there seems to be alot of bots in this channel
< 1739446807 90787 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1739446809 313952 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :True
< 1739446809 772899 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? prefixes
< 1739446811 629366 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
< 1739446847 478909 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(half of those are gone, and some of the bots don't have commands)
< 1739446871 523862 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have implemented a full reader macro system in posix shell in 3 lines
< 1739446887 160447 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and so you can change the notation of your posix shell at will in the middle of writing your programs
< 1739446907 844842 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :as far as i know it works on a read only filesystem
< 1739446918 484461 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it should run on many routers
< 1739447929 326577 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :related: https://www.ioccc.org/1987/biggar/index.html /home/bf3/bat/space/esoteric/ioccc/ https://www.ioccc.org/1993/lmfjyh/index.html
< 1739447936 749106 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :grmbl
< 1739447951 425466 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :related: https://www.ioccc.org/1987/biggar/index.html https://www.ioccc.org/1988/spinellis/index.html https://www.ioccc.org/1993/lmfjyh/index.html
< 1739448458 978316 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1739449452 107068 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1739449526 635263 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1739449558 943074 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
< 1739450074 295069 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: so I actually think C is the one that handles this the best, while C++ is the evil one, and rust is on the good path and will probably be fine in the future but there are some holes still. let me try to explain.
< 1739450207 516826 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :what the C++ standard says is that you are allowed to call a function only if where you're calling it it has the exact same function type as where it was defined. that means if a struct type is mentioned in the function type, even through pointer indirection, then it has to be the same struct type, with the same name in the same namespace.
< 1739450268 461606 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the standard also says that if the same struct type is defined in multiple compilation units, then its two definitions must be exactly the same, token by token, and they must reference the same thing in both definitions (eg. if it mentions another type then that has to be the same type).
< 1739450443 705142 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :now if you want to pass/return a struct by value to/from a function, then that struct type must be defined in both compilation units. this makes it effectively impossible to call such a function if it's not defined in C++, but in eg. rust or haskell FFI or anything else, because you can't have the exact same function type with the same definition
< 1739450444 205284 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :in those languages. and depending on how the definitions work, it's probably close to impossible to even call such a function if it's defined in C or zig or an older version of the C++ standard or C++ with certain compiler options different, because those can change the meaning of the struct definition.
< 1739450516 979309 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the situation is slightly better if you are only passing/returning a pointer to a struct when you're calling a function in C++, but it's still not good. in this case what you can do is to make sure that one of the two compilation units has the struct type declared but not defined, in which case the definition needn't be the same. and at either the
< 1739450517 481571 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :call or the function definition, you can cast the pointer to struct into a pointer to another struct.
< 1739450577 12753 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :casting the pointer is fine, though I don't quite understand the arcane C++ rules of when exactly you can use one C++ struct type to access the contents of a struct of another C++ struct type, but I think you can mostly make this work. \
< 1739450870 262214 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that still involves a cast (however safe) to a different pointer type, which kind of breaks type safety, plus it's not even clear if it still works if the function is defined in rust or some other non-C-like language. C and rust can access or define variables and functions in the global C namespace, but C doesn't have a concept of structure
< 1739450870 770675 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :types whose names are valid outside of a source file, and while rust has global struct types matching between compilation units, they can only have names in the rust namespace. so if you define a function in rust or C that takes a pointer to a struct, that struct can't be the same at the definition and the caller.
< 1739451011 637677 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The C standard has very different rules, and those rules work better with non-C compilation units.
< 1739451102 971447 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :C++ and Rust do basically the same thing here, don't they, namely, they treat C as an FFI target... extern "C" for C++; repr(C) and #[link(name = ...)] extern { ... } for Rust.
< 1739451110 724910 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So C says that when you call a function, the call site and the definition site only needs similar enough types for that function, they don't need to be the same type. Crucially, if the function takes/returns a structure by value, they don't have to be of the same type (it's probably not even meaningful to ask if two struct types from two
< 1739451111 224450 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :compilation units are the same in C), they only have to be similar enough.
< 1739451123 60419 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1739451153 550872 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And that's supported by things like the System V ABI which defines representations and calling conventions for C.
< 1739451156 997173 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The names of those structs don't matter for this, because the struct names in C are necessarily local to the compilation units, only the list of types of the members and stuff like that matters.
< 1739451243 222960 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : in the case of C and C++ this is because both the C and C++ language standard committees refuse to try to document the interactions, so the only documentation there is are the non-portable ones for ABIs of specific implementations; in the case of Rust the specification is still somewhat lacking but that probably will get fixed in time ← this has been something of a problem for Rust because in some cases the C and C++ implementations aren't 
< 1739451244 802519 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :compatible with each other and thus it's unclear what Rust should do to be compatible with them
< 1739451249 756417 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I vaguely remember something about the alignment of u128
< 1739451266 772132 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And if you pass/return a struct by pointer then you don't even need similar struct types, all pointers to struct are represented the same (pointers to void/char can differ from that, that's on purpose), so as long as the layout of the two structs are the same this will just work.
< 1739451398 938613 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://blog.rust-lang.org/2024/03/30/i128-layout-update.html
< 1739451408 770171 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :What C is trying to do is to give a portable enough definition to say when the ABI of the two function types must be the same on all implementations, while they obviously don't try to fix the same ABI. This can be subtle but I think they got it right: you can access a float through a struct{unsigned char[sizeof float]c;} and that preserves its
< 1739451409 271414 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :value, but if a function parameter is float then you can't call that function with a struct{unsigned char[sizeof float]c;} instead, which makes sense because on real ABIs the float can be passed in a floating-point hardware register.
< 1739451414 138787 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :apparently it was fixed by persuading clang to change to be compatible with gcc, then making Rust compatible with the new stanadrd
< 1739451454 625667 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the persuasion wasn't too hard because clang was trying to be compatible with gcc anyway, so from their point of view it was a bugfix
< 1739451534 629151 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: in practice, "the function pointer type must match exactly" is normally a fairly easy rule for programmers to stick to and sufficient to meet the C requirements
< 1739451541 576291 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I didn't bother learning the situations in which it's allowed to be slightly different
< 1739451600 57089 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yeah, that reminds me of how gcc at one point had to change the C++ linux name mangling of certain functions whose type involve an xmm/ymm vector type. that means C++ programs compiled with the new rules may be ABI-incompatible with ones compiled with the old rules, but this had to happen because the old rules were broken and could mangle
< 1739451600 560864 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :different overloaded functions to the same name which is a bug.
< 1739451645 588321 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: it's an easy rule if all your source code is in the same language, but it gets much harder if the function definition and call are in different languages.
< 1739451690 790522 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah right, I see
< 1739451708 987662 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :most language's FFIs are defined in terms of C types in an attempt to make the problem manageable
< 1739451731 547673 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that might potentially be a mistake, although I'm not sure (I'm pretty sure the reliance on libc for all OS interaction is a mistake, but am less sure about the FFI ABI situation)
< 1739451794 469579 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, rust and haskell is doing that, though there are some gaps that aren't handle yet. but C++ is not doing this in theory. specific C++ ABIs do, but you can't write a C++-C combo in a way that's guaranteed to be portable to future implementations because the general rules aren't written down in a way that C and rust writes down what they
< 1739451795 1390 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :try to guarantee even in future ABIs.
< 1739451855 622824 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, does C++ allow equivalent-but-not-token-identical multiple definitions of extern "C" structs?
< 1739451901 117240 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :rust has in particular improved this recently (like in the last two years): they wrote a new document that talks about when function types are compatible (similar to C), and added new ABI guarantees to certain library types, most importantly UnsafeCell and Cell
< 1739451927 805149 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: extern "C" structs don't exist. extern "C" only applies to function definitions and *maybe* function pointer types.
< 1739451964 36605 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh, I thought it was more general than that
< 1739451967 606670 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :for function definitions what it does is put the (declared external or defined) function into the non-mangled C namespace, so it can be the same *function* as a C function
< 1739452018 400578 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the standard either says or used to say that this can also change the ABI of that function, which is why it could technically modify the type of a function pointer, but I think that was never a thing in popular C++ implementations, mostly because the same people write the C and C++ compilers for any one ABI.
< 1739452024 537644 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess maybe C++ needs a "C-like structure" concept, the same way that Rust has a "C-like enum" concept (i.e. "the subset of C++ structures that are valid C", just like Rust has "the subset of Rust enums that are valid C")
< 1739452036 381722 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :in rust this is a thing by the way, function pointers carry their ABI.
< 1739452043 920993 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :carry the function's call  ABI.
< 1739452066 375360 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, any use of the function pointer has to know the ABI to be usable
< 1739452066 667581 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1739452091 663833 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1739452097 715625 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh by the way it's also a thing in C/C++, with the stdcall ABI for some windows architecture, it was just not a thing where C++ has a different default ABI or available ABIs from C.
< 1739452529 106241 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was going to say that it is quite common in practice for C compilers to support multiple ABIs and for function pointers to carry the ABI, even though that behaviour isn't required by the standard
< 1739452584 923891 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :incidentally, I think it is a mistake for compilers to have observable ABIs for all functions by default – it would be more efficient for the programmer to manually mark functions they wanted to be able to take a pointer to, and for the ABIs of the others to be adjusted by the optimiser as necessary, without necessarily being a standard ABI
< 1739452589 116510 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :one small hole is that the new rust document forgot to mention that passing a MaybeUninit by value to a foreign function is safe, and you may need that for passing/returning a structure by value in a typesafe way if some struct members may be uninitialized, which is fine for C and a C ABI can reasonably require it, especially if it's in a more
< 1739452589 617862 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :typesafe C++ style library.
< 1739452658 195871 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a simple example is that leaf functions can often be compiled to preserve more registers than the ABI says they should, which could be relied on by the calling function to reduce the need to spill
< 1739452707 945139 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in particular, it usually doesn't cost anything for a leaf function to preserve the argument registers, and the caller often cares about the values it provided as arguments
< 1739452718 985597 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess making extra guarantees is a function-pointer-compatible ABI change, though
< 1739452729 590459 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: that is already effectively done. in rust by default the ABI of functions and even user-defined structs can change between compiler versions, so you might not be able to pass a struct or call a function from a file compiled in one version of rust to a file compiled in another. you usually need an explicit repr attribute for a user-defined
< 1739452730 99916 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :struct to have a definite ABI, and some other attribute for a function.
< 1739452753 550469 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: in Rust, yes, the spec does that (although I'm not convinced the implementation actually does yet)
< 1739452757 705363 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was thinking about langauges in general though
> 1739452770 39079 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151860&oldid=132471 5* 03Allen123456hello 5* (+131) 10/* Example */
< 1739452808 326147 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am still upset about the &T as *const T cast, though – it is mostly useless and blocks a significant optimisation
< 1739452822 598635 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and both modern C and C++ and rust can often prove that you can't access a certain function from another compilation unit, in which case it can use a different ABI, and the compilers can even specialize an exported function with a different ABI for local calls as long as it exports a suitable wrapper.
< 1739452829 875396 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(it isn't so useless that you can backwards-compatibly remove it, but it is normally possible to write programs to avoid it)
< 1739452842 594592 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(especially now that we have the &raw operator)
< 1739452904 984180 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : and both modern C and C++ and rust can often prove that you can't access a certain function from another compilation unit ← I disagree, don't default settings export basically every function, at least on Linux?
< 1739452945 713536 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you at least need a default visibility option (together with options to override it for any functions that are actually used by other shared objects)
< 1739452973 979351 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :in C functions are exported by default, but you can declare them static or, in non-old versions of C, declare them inline, in which case they're not exported.
< 1739452987 48937 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: what if you pass a static function to qsort or the like?
< 1739453035 2190 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also the inline declaration doesn't help – by default inline functions also need an out-of-line version so that code calling from outside has something to call
< 1739453039 281745 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can do that, and then the compiler knows that you are taking the address of the function at that call site and will either compiler the function with the standard ABI, or, for a more complicated compiler, at least emit a wrapper function with the standard ABI
< 1739453040 574778 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can fix that using static inline, but then you still have a static
< 1739453060 544415 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I think it's specifically static (+ compiler-specific attributes) that matter there
< 1739453084 290004 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh hmm, C++ has "standard layout types" but the link to C ABI is that the x86_64 SysV ABI refers to https://itanium-cxx-abi.github.io/cxx-abi/abi.html#pod ?
< 1739453112 128821 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's kind of the same as when you take the address of a local variable and pass it to a function from another compilation unit: the compiler has to notice that and know that the value of that variable can change later from a different function call
< 1739453117 41519 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :gcc has __attribute__(visibility(internal)) which does what we want, I think
< 1739453126 485448 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and, I guess, most other 64 bit ABIs, as far as Linux is concerned)
< 1739453140 261745 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the semantics being "this function is never called from another module, not even by function pointer")
< 1739453157 163063 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the more common visibility(hidden) does not ban indirect calls by function pointer, so wouldn't allow an ABI change
< 1739453162 417449 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: yes, and those help with accessing a struct by the wrong type of pointer, they aren't enough to pass structs by value, only for passing structs by pointer
< 1739453164 506095 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I think it's still fair to say that the *intent* of standard-layout types is that their representation matches that of C.
< 1739453178 917086 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and in fact, the documentation for visibility(internal) says that it's primarily useful to allow the optimiser to change the ABI
< 1739453194 138183 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: that's fair but what's there is enough for interoperability
< 1739453198 936151 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :barely.
< 1739453231 942889 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1739453323 638659 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I guess the principle here is "what we have already necessarily works at least well enough to make writing software possible, otherwise we wouldn't have any software – but there is no guarantee that it works any better than that"
< 1739453379 904022 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :meanwhile, a bigger hole is atomic types. there are at least three sets of these, possibly more: the C atomics, the C++ atomics, and the rust atomics. the C++ and rust folks both always insist that you can do atomic access only on atomic types, don't even try to think of doing it on a value declared with an ordinary type. but the at least three
< 1739453380 421628 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :atomic types are different. so from rust code you can't directly access a C or C++ atomic variable, even though this is exactly the kind of low-level operation that you want to be able to do directly without calling an opaque wrapper function.
< 1739453471 831227 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :now admittedly the C++ atomics have different semantics in that std::atomic is a wrapper template that for sufficiently complicated values isn't lock-safe and basically translates to locking a value with an inter-thread mutex. but most of the time you use it for actual lock-safe atomics, and there's still no way to share those between C++ and rust.
< 1739453495 194427 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :rust is working on it, https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/76314
< 1739453522 100712 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ideally I'd want not only that but inter-thread mutexes and condition variables that you can access between languages, but that's harder to solve.
< 1739453526 796680 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: ooh, let me look at that
> 1739453534 359364 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ToArrowScript14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151861 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+3920) 10Created page with "ToArrowScript(or TAS, AS) is a language created by [[User:Cycwin]].This language is partly inspired by the => (arrow) symbol in JavaScript. == Syntax of TAS == Use the ampersand symbol to separate each line of command.  Each command is composed in a format similar 
< 1739453580 648014 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :from the Rust documentation, this seems to be the incompatibility: "Since atomic loads might be implemented using compare-exchange operations, even a load can fault on read-only memory."
< 1739453618 522602 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: ah yes, they're working on accessing non-atomic variables atomically. but that's still some low-level magic that I rarely want to touch, I'd prefer to just have, uh, "high level" atomic types that I can use from both C++ and rust.
> 1739453622 128904 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Cycwin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151862&oldid=151442 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+17) 10
< 1739453662 715835 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I see
< 1739453668 806528 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's unclear to me how a load could be implemented using compare-exchange unless you have a separate version number / timestamp field that acts as the atomic version of a lock, to ensure that the value hasn't changed, and even then I'm not sure how writes would work
< 1739453673 583386 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: well if you're paranoid about it, you have to do it all in C and access it through FFI.
< 1739453695 943910 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :because there's no guarantees that link atomic access in C to atomic access in the other languages
< 1739453722 283686 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but realistically, you can share locations by going through a pointer to the underlying non-atomic value and it'll work
< 1739453743 383883 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And that RFC / nightly feature allows you to do that.
< 1739453810 937882 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(if there are such guarantees and I've missed them I'm all ears)
< 1739453871 58382 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: yes, no guarantees so it's fine if the current types can be different. but rust could define a new library type that is guaranteed to be the same as C atomic_uintptr_t, and another library type that's the same as C++ std::atomic, and similar for atomic bools and atomic 32-bit integers.
< 1739453871 779156 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this comment explains what's incompatible on the C++ side: https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/76314#issuecomment-955150595
< 1739453900 586228 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it does not reasonably seem possible to be compatible with that behaviour while maintaining a reasonable API
< 1739454096 715111 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ooh, a discussion lower down there possibly answered a question I've been wondering about for a while: how to safely read from map-shared memory in Rust, RalfJung said you can do it via an &UnsafeCell which is an option I hadn't thought of but makes a lot of sense
< 1739454110 59758 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(raw pointers work too, obviously)
< 1739454142 434893 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Goddamnit Firefox. Please say that the certificate is expired (and when) instead of "The website is either misconfigured or your computer clock is set to the wrong time."
< 1739454186 771411 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: that comment is talking about the C++ library type atomic_ref which is so new that I hadn't even heard of, and you C++ already had way to handle atomic pointers before that, with std::atomic
< 1739454247 526272 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, C++ changes the official way to do things so often that I just assumed it was the only/standard way nowadays
< 1739454277 954968 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it might be convenient, I don't know that
< 1739454329 488111 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't even insist on the specific C and C++ types that I mentioned earlier. Figure out some semantics that you can support natively in all three, and if it needs to use new types that's fine too.
< 1739454368 587554 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one of my desires for Rust is a function read_race that takes in a raw pointer, and reads the value there into a MaybeUninit, but is not UB if the memory is mutably referenced or being concurrently changed by another thread (rather, it returns uninitialised data in that case)
< 1739454404 326385 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think this is required for certain atomic algorithms to work correctly – if your algorithm is lock-free you can't make any guarantees about what other threads might do with the memory, but you can check after you read it to see if any other thread wrote it or not
< 1739454419 774149 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But the plus side is that a few years ago we had the same problem if you want to pass xmm/ymm vector types by value to a function, but that is now solved, rust has a stable way to represent those (with possibly some remaining issue concerning the two bits concerning denormals in the xmm floating-point status registers)
< 1739454431 926367 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the idea is, you read it first (without looking at the value), then do some checks of atomic variables to see whether or not you read a usable value or not, if you didn't you discard it
< 1739454443 263392 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think it's possible to do that in Rust atm without UB or inline asm
< 1739454456 550608 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway. I doubt this will ever happen for C++'s atomic types, but maybe C's atomic types have a chance.
< 1739454490 694367 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: hmm...
< 1739454511 206473 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: fwiw, Rust doesn't appear to have a rule against doing atomic accesses to non-atomic memory – just to have a rule against mixing atomic and non-atomic accesses to the same memory, which is currently enforced by making atomic and non-atomic memory different
< 1739454523 932384 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Rust is still fairly young (quite a few details aren't fully fleshed out), and from what I've seen they care about interoperability with C.
< 1739454541 496308 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Yeah, that too.
< 1739454576 806445 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this makes it likely that Rust atomics can be made compatible with C atomics, although it'll probably rely on a lot of unsafe
< 1739454585 780051 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: C's atomic types could be kind of fine, because I think you can access those from C++, even if it's not quite standard C++, but it works just as well as accessing unix system calls from C++
< 1739454621 185063 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: exactly, I see lots of examples of rust getting improved, which is what makes me want to invest more in it, because I know it will be better in the future;
< 1739454666 584404 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and they care about compatibility between versions of rust, even when this costs significant time for the compiler developers, so they can actually improve a lot of things that aren't currently supported even when they seem to require breaking changes\
< 1739454787 619261 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: re access any memory atomically as long as all accesses to it are atomic => that does actually sound similar to the other parts of rust memory model
< 1739454948 522819 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: is that read_race thing that you mention possible in C or C++ with their modern memory models?
< 1739454975 466268 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: I assumed it would be legal in C with just a regular read, but am not 100% certain
< 1739454995 794522 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :obviously C doesn't care about the value being mutably referenced, but it might care about it being changed by another thread
< 1739455004 353212 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah
< 1739455005 959099 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually I think that probably is UB in C
< 1739455036 706329 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which doesn't really have a distinction between "you get UB" and "this isn't undefined behaviour but you read garbage data"
< 1739455084 654034 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :C doesn't have that distinction?
< 1739455145 806199 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, it does to some extent, I think there are places in the C standard where it says "the value might be a trap representation", which is very close
< 1739455181 203827 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it doesn't like making assumptions about, e.g., which values for pointers might crash the program merely by being stored in a pointer register, even if you don't use them
< 1739455200 199095 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can probably get reasonable guarantees for unsigned integer types, but likely not anything else
< 1739455441 918533 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see, so you're saying that C doesn't like to say that you get garbage data, it says either that you get UB, or that you get a valid but unpredictable value?
< 1739456188 794051 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1739456193 492499 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: you have language like "If there is ambiguity about which side effect to a non-atomic object is visible, then there is a data race and the behavior is undefined." or "Any [...] data race results in undefined behavior."
< 1739456365 451213 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh I see! so that discussion thread that ais523 linked to about rust atomics, what it says is that on x86_32, u64 is only aligned to 4 bytes, but atomic u64 must be aligned to 8 bytes, so you can't have an API that lets you access any &mut u64 atomically, even if you guarantee that that's not concurrent with normal non-atomic accesses. that makes
< 1739456365 951562 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sense.
< 1739456367 161161 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And "undefined behavior" is basically limitless.
< 1739456627 760661 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: right, "atomic u64 must be 8-byte aligned" is a processor rule on the x86 series (this affects both x86 and x86-64, but it doesn't matter on typical x86-64 ABIs because u64 is 8-byte-aligned there anyway)
< 1739456658 671555 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the rule makes sense because the processor is only able to atomically access a single cache line at a time, so it requires the data to be naturally aligned to guarantee that it exists within a single cache line
< 1739456709 822868 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :atomic u128 is 16-byte aligned on x86-64 for the same reason, and is one of the only commands that requires aligned data and doesn't have a matching command that works on unaligned data
< 1739456761 782494 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(x86-64 has some aligned-only memory copy instructions for backwards compatibility, but they're no more efficient than the unaligned memory copy instructions are at operating on aligned data)
< 1739456846 599607 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah
< 1739456865 589521 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's actually an interesting question as to whether compilers should generate aligned or unaligned memory copy instructions; I think the current consensus is "if you know it's aligned, generate an aligned instruction as a free assert"
< 1739456977 291529 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that could even depend on whether you're reading or writing
< 1739456997 211071 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, maybe not
< 1739457024 595558 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, it's usually desirable for a program to crash on invalid inputs, rather than try to process them anyway, although it depends somewhat on the purpose of the program
< 1739457148 314427 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I usually program in fields where fail-fast is definitely what you want, though
< 1739457348 202388 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: Oh I should've mentioned that the second quote about data races was about mixing atomic and non-atomic operations on atomic types. So rather than "one of the written values" or "an unspecified value" you potentially get arbitrary behavior from the program.
> 1739458215 659851 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151863&oldid=151693 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (-2) 10Changed xor symbol
> 1739458454 837726 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ToArrowScript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151864&oldid=151861 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+28) 10/* Syntax of TAS */
> 1739458821 259981 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ToArrowScript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151865&oldid=151864 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+26) 10/* Syntax of TAS */
< 1739458830 500155 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The C standard does make the distinction between /undefined behavior/ ("this International Standard imposes no requirements") and /unspecified behavior/ ("this International Standard provides two or more possibilities and imposes no further requirements on which is chosen"). And there are some instances when you get an /unspecified value/, which cannot be a trap representation.
< 1739458840 278567 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Such as C11 6.2.6.1p6: "When a value is stored in an object of structure or union type -- the bytes of the object representation that correspond to any padding bytes take unspecified values.")
< 1739458876 831576 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Trap representations themselves are technically only "safe" (i.e., not undefined) for character types; other integer types (even unsigned) would be allowed to have combinations of padding bits that would trigger fully undefined behavior when accessed.
< 1739458892 867496 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(C11 6.2.6.1p5: "If the stored value of an object has [a trap] representation and is read by an lvalue expression that does not have character type, the behavior is undefined.")
< 1739458930 376622 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's also an interesting quirk in that reading an uninitialized variable doesn't merely produce something that might be a trap representation (which would render it "okay" for character types), but is explicitly undefined behavior, but only for a subset of situations.
< 1739458938 123421 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(C11 6.3.2.1p2: "If the lvalue [undergoing lvalue conversion] designates an object of automatic storage duration that could have been declared with the `register` storage class (never had its address taken), and that object is uninitialized --, the behavior is undefined.")
> 1739458956 137757 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151866&oldid=151863 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (-3) 10/* Instructions */
< 1739458996 226363 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: which one is it when you convert an integer to a smaller signed integer type that it overflows?
< 1739459091 304784 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's the *third* kind, /implementation-defined/, which is the same as unspecified except that the implementation is required to document how the choice is made.
< 1739459095 39517 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(C11 6.3.1.3p3: "Otherwise, the new type is signed and the value cannot be represented in it; either the result is implementation-defined or an implementation-defined signal is raised.")
< 1739459121 255628 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1739459172 237294 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's also an interesting edge case in itself: a *conversion* result that cannot be represented is implementation-defined, while a result of an arithmetic operation (of a signed integer type) that cannot be represented in its type is undefined behavior.
< 1739459177 962113 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :some arithmetic like those integer conversions, shifts, and float to integer conversions get tricky. I think there are differences between C and C++ and between older and newer versions of C++. Conversion to a smaller integer type at least has an easy workaround: I always just convert to the same sized unsigned type first, and from that to the
< 1739459178 461931 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :unsigned type, because both of those steps are well-defined with the expected result.
< 1739459320 872766 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :@seen fungot
< 1739459320 947482 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :I saw fungot leaving #esolangs 1d 14h 43m 43s ago.
< 1739459354 20489 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's a similar implementation-defined vs. undefined dichotomy in (C) bitwise shift operations, where `E1 << E2` is undefined behavior if E1 has a signed type but a negative value, but `E1 >> E2` has an implementation-defined result.
< 1739459371 147910 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( you're playing with fire if you're mixing singed types with unsinged types )
< 1739459392 435306 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so C++20 changed conversion to a smaller signed type well-defined, probably because they already started to require two's complement types, and every two's complement implementation already does this, and there's an easy but silly workaround already.
< 1739459423 498548 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: hmm, which workaround are you thinking of?
< 1739459425 419496 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, right, I forgot about fungot. There was a brief internet outage at home the other day.
< 1739459447 766463 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I cam think of a few possibilities but am not 100% confident in which of them would be legal
< 1739459450 438320 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* I can
< 1739459453 332701 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Or technically it was "planned maintenance", though they didn't actually bother to let me know in advance.)
< 1739459463 677577 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: convert to the same sized unsigned type first. so instead of (int32_t)x write (int32_t)(uint32_t)x, and similarly for 16-bit or 8-bit
< 1739459496 580856 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is assuming that x is an integer type
< 1739459539 998945 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: big-unsigned-to-small-signed casts are defined even if they overflow?
< 1739459550 911674 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, wait, other way roudn
< 1739459558 71089 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you're casting to small unsigned and then to small signed
< 1739459562 238685 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yep, that works I think
< 1739459574 71191 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(assuming 2's complement)
< 1739459623 968270 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, x can be either signed or unsigned. it needn't be bigger, but the hard case is when it's bigger, sometimes I just want to write code that works regardless of what size long x is.
< 1739459629 250388 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a JOIN #esolangs fungot :fungot-0.1
< 1739459704 852665 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: welcome back
< 1739459705 50236 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: you press f7 to use it,
< 1739459764 243538 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, I do wonder what "it" was in that.
< 1739459837 548856 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs : You press F7 to use it, F6 to resotre the keybindings.
< 1739459919 495455 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Apparently some sort of ELisp module for structural editing of Scheme code (or S-expressions in general, perhaps).
< 1739459967 181347 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :also the standards say that if you convert from floating-point type to integer type then an overflow is undefined behavior. the partial workaround for that is to call the lrint or llrint functions. but that doesn't let you convert to an unsigned integer type, and doesn't let you convert to int32_t when long is 64 bits long (as in on linux x86_64)
< 1739460204 913114 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :this does come up kind of often and is annoying. another workaround is to clamp the floating point value to some range before I convert.
< 1739460334 634215 :wib_jonas80!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1739460490 635315 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1739460917 489625 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 QUIT :Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by wib_jonas80!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu))
< 1739460921 996310 :wib_jonas80!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu NICK :wib_jonas
< 1739461007 44854 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1739461303 389998 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm. lrint and llrint has the semantics that if there would be an overflow then you get a valid but implementation-defined value. this can be useful. I wonder if there's an interface to do the same in rust. rust has changed the `as` operator so that if you use it to convert from floating-point to integer it guarantees correct rounding towards zero
< 1739461303 889640 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :even on an overflow, which is nice, but it can come with a runtime penalty. x86 has the SSE2 instruction CVTPD2DQ to convert double to int64_t but it doesn't have this semantics: a positive overflow returns INT64_MIN rather than the correctly rounded INT64_MAX.
< 1739461407 224293 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, and the CVTPD2DQ instruction also rounds according to the rounding mode in the XMM status word, while the rust `as` conversion rounds towards zero, so they're different even without underflow.
< 1739461571 333307 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :this will be partly solved in future x86 by AVX512 providing a higher variety of floating point to integer conversion instructions.
< 1739461585 137558 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but apparently floating point to integer conversion is still a partly unsolved problem.
< 1739461738 679590 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :TIL (I think I knew this, but had forgotten): while `ls -l` lists the logical file sizes, `ls -sh` lists the size required on disk, which may be quite different (with holes, but also with ZFS datasets with compression enabled).
< 1739461741 670155 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Got a little confused by this file that was alternatingly showing up as 743243776 and "407M".
< 1739461788 410094 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, and du -a also lists the size required on disk (or at least what the file system driver lies about it, I think for modern file systems the size required on disk isn't really well-defined)
< 1739461953 621944 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : a positive overflow returns INT64_MIN rather than the correctly rounded INT64_MAX ← does a negative overflow do that too? if so, it almost looks like it's using the "INT_MIN Is a sentinel value and not part of the integer range" convention
< 1739462012 127674 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, it uses INT_MIN to indicate overflow in either direction
< 1739462041 481525 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm reminded of a (separate) discussion about float-to-smaller-float conversions, talking about whether the rounding mode should affect whether an out-of-range finite value rounds to the largest finite value or +inf
< 1739462229 499193 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :slightly related but more obscure is https://www.exploringbinary.com/numbers-greater-than-dbl-max-should-convert-to-dbl-max-when-rounding-toward-zero/ about scanning a decimal string to floating-point and how it handles an overflow
< 1739462263 523815 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe that's what I was thinking of
< 1739462324 485594 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the other way you can get wrong results for overflow faster is when you want to convert from double to 32-bit int but the CPU only has instructions to convert double to 64-bit int, so you just use that and then truncate the integer.
< 1739462343 154350 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that's still the case in AVX512 but I'm not entirely sure
< 1739462388 608312 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also don't understand how you're supposed to convert from float to int64_t on x86. do you have to upgrade to double?
> 1739462620 817964 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151867&oldid=151836 5* 03H33T33 5* (+154) 10/* Introductions */
< 1739462666 130159 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hold on!
< 1739462683 153635 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is there an easy way to print a float as a hexfloat in Perl?
< 1739462697 552603 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I could probably figure out a difficult way involving multiple calls to pack and unpack
< 1739462720 110415 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was wrong above. so the SSE2 instruction CVTPD2DQ actually gives not INT_MIN but -1 on an onverflow.
< 1739462731 984880 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :overflow
< 1739462755 820335 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :-1 isn't a very sensible overflow result unless it is outputting unsigned integers
< 1739462853 952964 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the docs do say that the result is all-bits-1 if a floating-point invalid exception is raised and masked, though
< 1739462859 777295 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the AVX512 floating point to integer instructions also all give -1 on overflow in any direction if I am reading the intel manual right
< 1739462870 239842 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you do have CVTPS2SQ for converting single-precision floats, though
< 1739462893 739902 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: for floats, -1 or all-bits-1? those are different for floats I think
< 1739462915 853527 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm talking about floating point to integer conversion, you get an integer -1
< 1739462965 479561 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, you said "in any direction" but you were talking about positive vs. negative overflow, not float-to-int vs. int-to-float
< 1739462997 258021 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I think I'm fine with this, because I think most of the time when I want a floating point to integer conversion I'm okay with an implementation-defined result (but not an UB) for overflow. if I want a well-defined result then I'm probably going to clamp the floating-point to some specific range that is usually smaller than the size of the
< 1739462997 757273 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :integer type that I'm using
< 1739463005 867698 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, sorry, it's overflow with any sign
< 1739463046 655386 :wib_jonas29!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1739463052 779356 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's also CVTTPD2DQ which appears to be the same instruction with more sensible overflow behaviour?
< 1739463064 993577 :wib_jonas29!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu NICK :b_jonas
< 1739463133 512899 :b_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: not as far as I understand.
< 1739463186 10200 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, the differences are a) overflow behaviour, b) CVTT is always round-to-zero and ignores the floating-point status word
< 1739463246 108670 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am wondering if CVTPD2DQ's overflow behaviour is a typo that ended up getting implemented, it says 2w-1 but that may have originally been a typo for 2w-1
< 1739463252 123075 :b_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :as I see, there's a full set CVT{T,}PD2{DQ,UDQ,QQ,UQQ} to convert double to any of those four integer types, and they all give integer -1 result on an overflow. CVT{T,}PD2DQ is old, it's from SSE2, while the other six are from AVX512 but they form a consistent full set. the extra T means that it ignores the rounding mode from the status bit and
< 1739463252 655152 :b_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :always rounds towards zero, but that's only when there's no overflow
< 1739463280 663729 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1739463293 33967 :b_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu NICK :wib_jonas
< 1739463300 497609 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oops
< 1739463306 688421 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not supposed to be b_jonas from this connection
< 1739463312 467109 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : If a converted result is larger than the maximum signed doubleword integer, the floating-point invalid exception is raised, and if this exception is masked, the indefinite integer value (80000000H) is returned.
< 1739463371 604130 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :CVTPD2DQ also specifies its error return value as "the indefinite integer value", but defines it as 2w-1
< 1739463381 226577 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :what the
< 1739463384 156614 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which would be a weird use of "the" if they're both intentional
< 1739463406 5968 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so out of the eight instructions that convert from double to some integer type, *one* gives a different result on overflow?
< 1739463445 717695 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :CVTTPD2DQ also uses the 0x80000000 return
< 1739463456 662181 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in addition to CVTTPS2DQ
< 1739463484 17571 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, I said the eight instructions that convert from double, so I didn't look at CVTTPS2DQ
< 1739463490 386551 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, right
< 1739463493 976451 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :eight conversions from double was already enough to look up in the manual
< 1739463497 259523 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the others are documented as 2w-1
< 1739463513 149226 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do care about the float to integer conversions too but I can't turn the virtual pages of the manual fast enough
< 1739463521 786748 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it's probably worth trying these out on an actual processor (but I don't have one that runs AVX-512)
< 1739463554 526831 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a little nontrivial to run arbitrary asm and print the result, maybe a C wrapper would be easiest
> 1739463578 992672 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151868&oldid=151851 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+18) 10
< 1739463601 887255 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, to me, the only logical explanation is that the documentation is a typo for 2w-1 but I don't know whether the typoed version got implemented or not
< 1739463612 158714 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :gcc and clang might know anyway, don't they compile intrinsics for future AVX512 code into equivalent (but possibly slow) code that works on the older target CPU?
> 1739463789 923052 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151869&oldid=151868 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+54) 10
< 1739463790 926955 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :if gcc/clang doesn't know then the other place to look at is in an AMD manual
< 1739463836 862991 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :in theory qemu should know too but I know it has bugs about modern x86 floating-point operations so I don't trust it
> 1739463964 164283 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151870&oldid=151869 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+26) 10
< 1739463975 485600 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: cvtpd2dq returns INT_MIN on overflow (despite the documentation), I just tested
< 1739463991 548551 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :did you test with both signs?
< 1739464035 551440 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, give me a moment
< 1739464055 183919 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, tested with both signs, INT_MIN in both cases
> 1739464055 751242 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151871&oldid=151870 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+0) 10
< 1739464063 463656 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would have been surprised if they were different
< 1739464073 629442 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the documentation is just typoed
< 1739464093 367266 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, we should download the latest update to the manual first
< 1739464108 245123 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm looking at one from 2023-12
< 1739464128 593376 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :webpage is https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/developer/articles/technical/intel-sdm.html
< 1739464184 277718 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :something else is bothering me a lot – the conversion produces 32-bit numbers, so why does the name end in DQ?
< 1739464213 870017 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it's D for 32-bit and the Q means something else?
< 1739464241 155309 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh... good question
> 1739464255 833578 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151872 5* 03H33T33 5* (+3681) 10Created page with "Topple is developed in C. The entire language is made up of single characters.  Topple (conditionally) ignores whitespace, which means you can cram everything into one line. Good luck with that though. ==Overview==  {| class="wikitable" !Command !Description !Example !Out
< 1739464264 513989 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina JOIN #esolangs Lykaina :Lykaina Wolfe
< 1739464357 758730 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :i just thought up a funge/forth hybrid with 8836 possible commands
< 1739464376 837438 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :need to learn forth first though
< 1739464381 569056 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was impressed with gcc allowing me to take an integer from an xmm register, anyway
< 1739464409 178813 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm testing using this (+ a stdio.h include): int main(void) { double d=-1e10; unsigned long long i; asm("cvtpd2dq %1, %0" : "=x" (i) : "x" (d)); printf("%llu\n", i); }
< 1739464485 41252 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://github.com/memesmith0/mcr4
< 1739464508 148182 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lykaina: I have a suspicion that esolang ideas that require learning Forth first are likely to be interesting
< 1739464561 993912 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :I meant I need to learn Forth
< 1739464610 633953 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the other weird part is that the double to int32_t conversion instructions are lane-crossing, they convert four doubles in a YMM register to four int32_t in the bottom half of a YMM register, or eight doubles in a ZMM register to eight int32_t in the bottom half of a ZMM register. x86 usually tries to avoid that.
< 1739464629 370934 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, that is weird
< 1739464654 346726 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :8836 = 94^2
< 1739464662 338795 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :having some lane-crossing instructions is useful, but they are slower so it generally makes sense to only lane-cross when explicitly requested to
< 1739464664 170161 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's possible that I'm reading the ZMM case wrong, the description is confusing, so don't trust me
< 1739464735 329461 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I haven't checked all the tons of instructions -- apparently all combinations of {float16, float, double} to {int32, uint32, int64, uint64} with {current rounding mode, truncated} exist, plus AVX512 adds its stupid extra tricks over that
< 1739464842 160351 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"allowing me to take an integer from an xmm register" => SSE2 is actually designed to try to make that easy and I like that
< 1739464935 891051 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not surprised that the processor allows it (I knew it did), but i was surprised that gcc inserted the conversion for me
< 1739464996 32387 :Celeo!~Celeo@user/celeo JOIN #esolangs Celeo :Celeo
< 1739465011 59942 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :i can't believe raspberry pi thinks they will be making the 32-bit rp2350 in 2045. nothing 32-bit will survive 2038
< 1739465039 244819 :Celeo!~Celeo@user/celeo QUIT :Client Quit
< 1739465054 39911 :Celeo!~Celeo@user/celeo JOIN #esolangs Celeo :Celeo
< 1739465075 740204 :Celeo!~Celeo@user/celeo QUIT :Client Quit
< 1739465094 31527 :Celeo!~Celeo@user/celeo JOIN #esolangs Celeo :Celeo
< 1739465112 228464 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lykaina: you can (and should) use 64-bit time_t on 32-bit systems
< 1739465128 758024 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :point taken
< 1739465133 101787 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know whether that's the default yet, but it really should be
< 1739465220 309675 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :so many programming languages will have to have their time libraries changed from outputting a long to outputting a long long
< 1739465337 715825 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :if they haven't done so already
< 1739465418 899762 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :brb
< 1739465445 899907 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :glibc has a _TIME_BITS define that controls the size of time_t
< 1739465539 805488 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :back
> 1739465632 913830 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151873&oldid=151872 5* 03H33T33 5* (-54) 10Topple Esolang Info
> 1739465776 36779 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Scoop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151874&oldid=96633 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (-2) 10Remove the header before the introduction plus some light editing for readability.
< 1739465786 946909 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm no avx512 here to test
< 1739465789 783171 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :64-bit time_t is the default for newer distributions, but I think the kernel and libc folks had to do the transition without having to recompile every program and library immediately
< 1739465942 45399 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :i built a router
< 1739465994 705503 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :out of an N100 w/ 16 GiB ram and OpenWRT's x86-64 build
< 1739466017 452998 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :got sick of replacing them
< 1739466031 937749 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's kind of a similar problem to what largefiles (64-bit file offsets for seeking and 64-bit file sizes for statting) used to be
< 1739466359 971615 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I can conclude that the documentation of CVTSS2SI with a 64 bit target is wrong.
< 1739466362 977662 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION shrugs

< 1739466385 760144 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :These instruction sets are such a mess.
< 1739466517 444358 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: isn't CVTSS2SI an mmx-only instruction and so almost obsolete now?
< 1739466574 750271 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm more interested about the SSE2/AVX512 instructions like CVT{,T}{PS,PD}2{DQ,UDQ,QQ,UQQ}
> 1739466928 537010 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151875&oldid=151871 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+19) 10
< 1739466946 600634 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm almost happy to let MMX die, and I think its only remaining applications are esoteric only
< 1739467251 380485 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Debian had a big "t64 transition" to move to 64-bit `time_t` on 32-bit platforms last year.
< 1739467329 411886 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It generated a lot of noise also on 64-bit platforms because of some quirk of Debian package management, something around library sonames having to be identical across ports and needing them to change on the 32-bit ones to enable a more gradual migration.
< 1739467372 443316 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://wiki.debian.org/ReleaseGoals/64bit-time has some details in case anyone's curious.
< 1739467448 134208 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, they didn't actually do it for i386 (on the basis that it exists mostly to run old 32-bit binaries, and that wouldn't really work if they made a big ABI change like that).
< 1739467540 414400 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: really? I assumed they did it for x86_32 but in a way where macros or other magic dispatch everything to either 32-bit or 64-bit time depending on some compile-time options
< 1739467548 325421 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: It's the only instruction with a 64 bit target that I have :P CVTPS2DQ also uses 0x80...00
< 1739467557 799575 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but x86_64 at least had 64-bit time_t from the start, right?
< 1739467680 241392 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and VCVTPS2DQ is the same too
< 1739467701 455839 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(tbh it would be insane to change that between sse2 and avx)
< 1739467704 22359 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, x86-64 (or amd64 as Debian calls it) was 64-bit from the start.
< 1739467736 403937 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :As for i386, what they say is: "The i386 port will be left with the existing 32-bit time_t, as a compatibility architecture for existing x86 binaries. A new 'i686' x86 ABI/architecture using 64-bit time, and potentially newer ISA features, could be created if there was sufficient enthusiasm for dragging 32-bit x86 into its now very limited future."
< 1739467742 716105 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(And also: "i386 is 32-bit but has been excluded from the 64-bit time_t transition because its major purpose this decade is running legacy 32-bit binaries, a purpose that would no longer be possible if it broke ABI"0
< 1739467770 116681 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm kind of expecting that by the time time_t overflows 31 bits there won't be any x86_32 systems around, but there will still be file system formats and other binary formats that have 32-bit time_t type fields, or other representations of time that will overflow. In particular FAT has a time that will overflow several decades after this problem,
< 1739467770 592310 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I'm not sure when FAT will ever be gone, because all the cameras and mobile phones and cash registers etc still use FAT, but then that rollover is far enough in the future that it might not matter by that time.
< 1739467791 426889 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: basically all the rest you're asking abouyt are avx512 so not available to me :P
< 1739467812 822508 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: I imagine the U version actually use 2^w - 1.
< 1739467822 257045 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :rather than 2^(w-1)
< 1739467834 688878 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I may try to look at that floating point to integer thing later, I can't at the moment
< 1739467901 302234 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and meh I hate piecing together compiler intrinsics for these things
< 1739467906 102062 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(it's so slow)
< 1739467923 313294 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :we'll be able to find someone on the internet who has a new enough intel CPU
< 1739468008 40247 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: I'm not sure it's just "new enough", IIRC Intel aren't putting AVX-512 into even most of their new CPUs
> 1739468134 746392 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Anthonykozar/Sandbox14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151876 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (+145) 10Testing for Markdown support
< 1739468259 34867 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it's divided to three tiers, and some of these instructions, namely those that use YMM registers rather than ZMM, are available in the lowest tier, and new enough CPUs support those. Perhaps even more, just not at the full speed, in that the instructions with ZMM instructions work but you can't get the full speedup that you'd expect from a
< 1739468259 535927 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :CPU that's designed with 512-bit vectors from the start.
< 1739468270 367151 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean AVX512 is divided into three tiers
< 1739468417 452406 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but first I'll want to double-check the latest version of the intel manual, and look at whether there's an AMD manual that talks about this
< 1739468444 527776 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :obviously there must be for the SSE2 instructions at least
< 1739468550 947323 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/avx512%3f.png -- it's even more complicated, see the footnote
< 1739468607 638362 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(fairly recent SDM, I downloaded it in December)
< 1739468972 257798 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: yeah, it's complicated and the CPU architecture manual has to support the worst most complicated cases too, but I don't think that's a problem for such a test
< 1739469008 269237 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure. this was about the three tiers
< 1739469061 562757 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah
< 1739469153 804851 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"I hate piecing together compiler intrinsics for these things" => you could use inline assembly
< 1739469367 310036 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1739470779 621126 :chomwitt_alt!~alex@2a02:587:7a13:5400:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd JOIN #esolangs chomwitt :realname
< 1739471264 980679 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1739472118 503343 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1739472120 484164 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1739472206 236823 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1739472315 197274 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1739472903 820372 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1739473660 64101 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I gotta talk about mcr4
< 1739473728 17069 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Go for it. I'd be interested in understanding the bigger picture.
< 1739474119 793723 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :b_jonas
< 1739475583 467737 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1739477744 700420 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :mcr4 is a very lightweight reader macro system that lets you change the notation of languages like c# while the language is runnign live on the machine
< 1739477774 474128 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it was designed  so that I could extend the notation of bash
< 1739477786 127213 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I spent 12 years researching to develop it
< 1739478164 15582 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :mcr4 is based in posix compliant sh and awk so it runs on almost any machine out in the wild even routers with read only file systems and even in some bioses
< 1739478192 129367 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is similar to the idea of a very lightweight very portable version of gnu m4 only it has features that m4 seemingly does not
< 1739478258 184705 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is there a document?
< 1739478291 287348 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :no but I can answer questions about it
< 1739478308 458587 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have alot of experience tutoring in code I was a c++ tutor at everett community college
< 1739478326 530924 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i teach people to code for fun
< 1739478339 876444 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://github.com/memesmith0/mcr4/blob/main/README.md
< 1739478401 182558 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :very very smol system
< 1739478403 620946 :chomwitt_alt!~alex@2a02:587:7a13:5400:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1739478432 913556 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :theres also this bad boy https://github.com/memesmith0/mcr
< 1739478474 895207 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :mcr is alot easier to grok than mcr4 but it isnt as performant or safe
< 1739478828 653719 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1739478882 655062 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :what the first mcr does is put a line of awk between you and the terminal so that every line you type into the terminal passes through a line of awk before the terminal executes it
< 1739478914 455127 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can call mcr multiple times to cause your input to pass through awk multiple times. thus you can transform how the interpreter interprets things while ti is running
< 1739479095 304315 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :12 years of research and not a single example
< 1739479097 467642 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: you should probably write something about this on the esolangs wiki
< 1739479115 659542 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but 4 versions in 2 days
< 1739479130 513985 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :if I write something I can give you license to use my text on the wiki
< 1739479145 807649 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, that can work too
< 1739479154 520738 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ive been codding all day every day for 4 weeks
< 1739479164 257347 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i havent showered or shaved or changed my clothes
< 1739479177 832589 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i havent slept in 2 days
< 1739479187 979953 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that sounds like a bad idea
< 1739479228 700191 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :eh i am just focused on getting fastlisp done
< 1739479239 548382 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it has thrown a wrench in my plants because I didnt expect to implement mcr
< 1739479242 473735 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry? what is fastlisp
< 1739479250 306745 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :those poor plants
< 1739479255 537112 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :fastlisp is a lisp written in pure lambda calculus
< 1739479265 247412 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it only consits of lambdas, strings, and comments
< 1739479277 49415 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the specification fits into a qr code
< 1739479283 432379 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the interpreter fits into the boot sector of a floppy disc
< 1739479285 362232 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :are there variables?
< 1739479296 196700 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :no there are only constants. but there is a way to simulate variables
< 1739479318 485878 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that sounds like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Sectorlisp
< 1739479337 702684 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :its based on sectorlisp and is designed to be fully compatible with sectorlisp
< 1739479343 333564 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it compiles to sectorlambda
< 1739479345 562849 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait, how do the lambda expressions work if there are no variables? that doesn't sound like lambda calculus
< 1739479363 77743 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :lambdas dont have variabesl they have constants
< 1739479399 220811 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i guess you could think of them like variables
< 1739479407 164949 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait, so you do have variables that the lambdas abstract over, and functions that are closed over upvalues, you're just using strange terminology for them?
< 1739479413 422469 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that sounds more reasonable
< 1739479414 708127 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nah, the standard terminology is that lambda terms have variables; they can be bound or unbound; closed lambda terms only have bound variables
< 1739479436 156426 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I'm still confused about the "only consits of lambdas, strings, and comments"
< 1739479449 326192 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah so
< 1739479455 812545 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :this comes from mathematics where variables aren't mutable
< 1739479473 209073 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is a sectorlisp-like way to code with lambdas where it works alot like scheme
< 1739479479 313275 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :its hard to describe in irc
< 1739479488 95095 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean you could have a language that the value of an expression can only be a function or a string, but then how do comments come up?
< 1739479562 867358 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :in fastlisp version 5 comments are just lines that begin with #
< 1739479571 142530 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :are there any birds involved?
< 1739479585 822176 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah I have the iota combinator tattoed on my arm
< 1739479656 949350 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :fastlisp isnt really ready to show whereas mcr and mcr4 are working 2day
< 1739479671 849146 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can show you some fastlisp sources
< 1739479676 285624 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` welcome lisbeths # wow we really are magnets for strange people here
< 1739479678 781058 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
< 1739479704 983603 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://github.com/memesmith0/fastlisp/blob/main/celestial/holy9.fastlisp
< 1739479743 56245 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :fastlisp code fits into one of four categories; subterranian, terrestrial, telestial, and celestial
< 1739479785 817733 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the entire haskell compiler should be dumpable directly into fastlisp
< 1739479827 934173 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :fastlisp has some of the smallest compiled file sizes in the world, so its kind of good as like an embedded haskell although thats not what its for
< 1739480288 744760 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i would sho u my website which has some very homeschooled code but it is problematic
< 1739480552 727888 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :eh I guess i dont care view-source:https://podlife.neocities.org/
< 1739481112 961695 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is a remote proxy server available for connecting to TLS 1.3 from clients that do not support TLS?
< 1739481829 625111 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Tangent: English doesn't have a good way to express the idea that an idea might have been slowly developing over the course of a long time, in small increments, without constant effort, I think.
< 1739481873 598618 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...Wait, I was going to phrase that as a question. But I don't remember how I was going to ask it.
< 1739481915 1586 :Celeo!~Celeo@user/celeo QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1739482021 814427 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: Like stunnel? Or the other direction?
< 1739482220 864948 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I don't know what direction you mean. What I mean is that a remote computer might accept a unencrypted connection and then communicate with another remote computer securely, that requires TLS 1.3 (or other versions of TLS, or if they require older versions of SSL), even if the client does not support it.
< 1739482289 277981 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, I don't know of any public proxies like that.
< 1739483240 601861 :JAA!~JAA@user/meow/JAA PRIVMSG #esolangs :IIRC, some HTTP proxy softwares support remote GET requests like 'GET https://example.org/ HTTP/1.1'. I haven't seen raw TLS though.
> 1739484032 36699 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151877&oldid=151875 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+130) 10add various places
> 1739484402 748379 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151878&oldid=151825 5* 03Buckets 5* (+10) 10
> 1739484412 236675 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151879&oldid=151843 5* 03Buckets 5* (+11) 10
> 1739484429 327003 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07!@a*14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151880 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1073) 10Created page with "!@a* (Pronounced Bang-at-a-star) is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2020 about shooting stars with guns. (Extinguished Stars = 0.) {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | ^ || Moves up the pointer of the list of Every single 
> 1739484581 64735 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151881 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+199) 10Created page with "THERE IS A LITERAL BEEPBOX WIKI?~~~"
> 1739484680 650893 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151882&oldid=151881 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+338) 10yep!
> 1739485340 914222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151883&oldid=151877 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-42) 10might as well remove those if I don't use them
> 1739485841 843248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151884&oldid=151873 5* 03H33T33 5* (+0) 10
> 1739486821 611490 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5*  10New user account
< 1739486953 45180 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1739487013 20211 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151885&oldid=151867 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+285) 10
> 1739487045 879133 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151886 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+225) 10Created page with "I'm User:Hotcrystal0. I have lurked the wiki without an account for some time, and several people I know from [https://conwaylife.com/forums/index.php the CGoL forums] are here. I want to create and add esolangs to this wiki."
> 1739487121 970485 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151887&oldid=151835 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-40) 10I have an account now.
> 1739487163 307686 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151888&oldid=151887 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+2) 10
> 1739487262 882713 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Anti-Plushie language14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151889&oldid=150738 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+34) 10Adding a missing category
< 1739487381 899864 :Celeo!~Celeo@user/celeo JOIN #esolangs Celeo :Celeo
< 1739487582 26735 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1739488303 64095 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151890&oldid=151888 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+569) 10Added more commands
> 1739490256 782923 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151891&oldid=151890 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-2) 10
> 1739490569 592680 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151892&oldid=151891 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+475) 10
> 1739491048 553225 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151893&oldid=151892 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+126) 10
> 1739491072 455206 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151894&oldid=151893 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-6) 10
< 1739491083 462469 :Celeo!~Celeo@user/celeo PART :#esolangs
> 1739491549 153924 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151895&oldid=151894 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+67) 10
> 1739492195 157428 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151896&oldid=151895 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+145) 10
< 1739493407 830304 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1739493543 153186 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151897&oldid=151545 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+48) 10/* My esolangs */
< 1739493729 726979 :nitrix!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1739493755 117968 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/List of the users that is also in conwaylife.com14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151898&oldid=151020 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-515) 10Blanked the page
> 1739497645 579857 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151899&oldid=151883 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+0) 10Fixed account
> 1739497808 340925 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151900&oldid=151899 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+22) 10
> 1739498008 922934 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/Draft14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151901&oldid=149690 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-1580) 10stepmania-inspired language concept
> 1739498391 632179 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/PSTF Again 14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151902 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+5994) 10Created page with "1. [[Translated ZhongWen/islptng Zwei|]]Special:Contributions/PrySigneToFry|You computer has a severe errL$D3h$&% ?' L$H3h(*) ?+ L$L3h,.- ?/ L$P3h021 ?3 ?6$T3h45 ?7 ?:$X3h89 ?; ?p<=? ? F  ?~#?~nD
> 1739498433 476653 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/Mihai Again Chapter XI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151903&oldid=151857 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+43) 10
> 1739498652 453751 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151904&oldid=151896 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+372) 10
> 1739498712 900791 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151905&oldid=151904 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+35) 10
> 1739498821 549457 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151906&oldid=151551 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+596) 10/*  */
< 1739498860 786845 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1739499382 416729 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151907&oldid=151795 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-1895) 10Blanked the page
> 1739499730 510114 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Game:Nonsense14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151908 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+1927) 10Created page with "I personally think that spaghetti should be mixed with #42 concrete, because the length of screws can easily affect the excavator's torque. When you strike it in, it will instantly produce a large amount of high-energy proteins, known as UFO
> 1739499831 769099 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/islptng Zwei14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151909&oldid=151856 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-1412) 10
> 1739501626 515685 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07List of ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151910&oldid=150727 5* 03Gilbert189 5* (+153) 10/* Partially Silly Ideas */
> 1739502497 937589 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151911&oldid=151064 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+26) 10/* anything else */
> 1739502736 54021 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151912&oldid=151906 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+849) 10
> 1739503144 721390 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/PSTF Again 14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151913&oldid=151902 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+10) 10
> 1739503285 146678 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151914&oldid=151884 5* 03H33T33 5* (+5) 10
> 1739505584 543005 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yunasha Hotora14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151915 5* 03Yunasha Hotora 5* (+145) 10Created page with "Yunash Hotor Ushiyra / Atash Newurashka  16 | 26 Feb 2008  ADHD Stuff: - Conlang - Esolang - Worldbuilding - Architecture - Music - Art"
> 1739505893 798688 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nya~*kwrgsfish+-HQ9`:'"rbtAzxdi814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151916&oldid=151842 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+90) 10
> 1739505905 415869 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yunasha Hotora14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151917&oldid=151915 5* 03Yunasha Hotora 5* (+60) 10
> 1739505968 852210 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yunasha Hotora14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151918&oldid=151917 5* 03Yunasha Hotora 5* (+21) 10
> 1739506011 244011 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151919&oldid=151900 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+28) 10
> 1739506483 168596 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yunasha Hotora/Sandbox14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151920 5* 03Yunasha Hotora 5* (+301) 10Created page with "=Header i guess=  
 code (code=code; code++){     code.Code(code["code"]);     code{[code, code - code] -> (         code[code] = code;         code (code == code) {code | code};     )}; } 
  {| ! Header 1 !! Header 2 |- | Row 1, Cell 
> 1739506705 245783 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yunasha Hotora/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151921&oldid=151920 5* 03Yunasha Hotora 5* (+9) 10
> 1739506737 760171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151922&oldid=151914 5* 03H33T33 5* (+0) 10
> 1739506797 695057 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151923&oldid=151922 5* 03H33T33 5* (+15) 10
> 1739506891 243824 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yunasha Hotora/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151924&oldid=151921 5* 03Yunasha Hotora 5* (+101) 10
> 1739507025 107697 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151925&oldid=151923 5* 03H33T33 5* (-59) 10
< 1739507728 741124 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
> 1739507853 25895 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tri-Tru-Eso14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151926 5* 03Yunasha Hotora 5* (+291) 10Created page with "{{Stub}} ''Not to be confused with [[Tri]].''  Tri-Tru-Eso is an esolang created by [[User:Yunasha_Hotora]]. Originaly uploaded to [https://github.com/Yunasha/tri-tru-eso Github] at July, 2024.  [[Category:2025]]  =External Links= * [https://github.com/Yunasha
> 1739509517 958993 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ToArrowScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151927&oldid=151865 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+227) 10/* Examples */
> 1739509593 167561 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ToArrowScript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151928&oldid=151927 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+9) 10/* Calculate 5! */
< 1739511040 52621 :chomwitt_alt!~alex@2a02:587:7a13:5400:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd JOIN #esolangs chomwitt :realname
< 1739511355 992647 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I'm arguably being a bit snobbish and mincing words... all I can think of is the cooking idiom (an idea has been simmering for a while). And I'd prefer "study" over "research" if it includes learning basics.
< 1739511477 81292 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I really mind the total absence of even a single example though, because that would make the details of the code much easier to grasp. The general gist of it is... kind of boring I think. More or less: Meta programming in a language that has an eval builtin.
< 1739511616 271972 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Why do the struct types have to be the same by token by token? I should think that using different tokens should sometimes be acceptable, e.g. if the number of elements in an array is written as 1+1 or as 2 then it should be considered to match, isn't it? (Debugging information might be different maybe (I don't know), but that should not affect the execution of the program.)
< 1739511727 443746 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Oh, I think it's a completely reasonable complaint about English. It had occurred to me that e.g. Lojban has {ru'inai}, a time tense which indicates gaps, pauses, discontinuities. It's a good match for projects which are completed at a rate of weekends/year.
< 1739511741 92647 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :C wants to give compiler writers maximal freedom... so if they want to align each member at a 16 byte boundary, that's fair game.
< 1739511801 294781 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: the "snobbish" part alludes to having been in academia which comes with a fairly narrow idea of "research". The use of the word has become quite a bit wider to the point where reading a news article is included :P
< 1739511855 17918 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Aha.
< 1739511923 715622 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So, I agree that it's boring, but I think metaprogramming is still quite cool in general. What bores me about SectorLisp is that its size limitations ensure that it can't have any interesting codegen. There's no magic wand that will fit all of the complexity of 6502, let alone any of its x86 children, into a single sector.
< 1739511971 844313 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it's valuable to be small, but also valuable to use all of the different parts of the CPU. If a compiler wants to omit part of an ISA, then I think it ought to show that some other part of the ISA dominates it.
< 1739512028 886637 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also am not super-thrilled about Lisp semantics, but that's asking for the argument clinic.
< 1739512078 32082 :chomwitt_alt!~alex@2a02:587:7a13:5400:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1739512164 661689 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I guess I'm too affected by the fancy word soup used to advertise the mcr* thing. (I haven't looked at sectorlisp, which may be a mistake in that it sounds like a more fleshed out thing)
< 1739512219 651026 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :SectorLisp is literally what it says on the tin: a sector-sized Lisp-like interactive environment. It's a very cool tech demo but not a serious platform for building other stuff.
< 1739512239 534586 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's fine, especially for here.
< 1739512291 956680 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Young me once wrote an exponential time sorting routine unironically (in a code golfing context)
< 1739512755 52463 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1739512834 147415 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
> 1739513039 946385 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tri-Tru-Eso14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151929&oldid=151926 5* 03Yunasha Hotora 5* (+2537) 10
< 1739513323 340963 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, do I still remember? I think it went like this: https://paste.debian.net/1349933/
< 1739513840 575040 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had to look up `scas`. Is this a bubble sort?
< 1739513925 866101 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :No, it's worse.
< 1739514246 422298 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It carries an extra element and starts swapping that almost blindly with the array elements one by one, as long as the extra element (after the swap) is the largest of all the array elements.  So when sorting 1 2 3 [255], you swap with the 1, 255 2 3 [1], that's out of order; you start over. Swap again, 1 2 3 [255], and again, 1 255 3 [2], that's out of order, start over. A swap, a restart, 3...
< 1739514252 381651 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :...swaps, a restart, 1 swap, a restart, 2 swaps, a restart, and 3 more swaps and you're done.
< 1739514368 342417 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Interesting. I guess that makes it a sort of slow sort. Not literally related to slowsort, which is pessimal quicksort, but more like a pessimal bubble sort.
< 1739514462 749929 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :If my analysis back then is correct it's Theta(2^n) worst case (easy to verify), Theta(2^n/n) average case and Theta(n^2) worst case if all sorted elements are distinct. You only get down further with equal elements. I suspect that also means it's O(n^256) or maybe O(n^255) if you use it on bytes.
< 1739514503 765537 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :A simplexity theorist (somebody who tries to waste time/space) would be proud.
< 1739514506 124631 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway. It's really designed around `scasb` being a one-byte instruction at the time.
< 1739514542 798093 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And, I can't stress this enough, it's useless.
< 1739514578 499164 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Except for entertainment purposes of course :)
< 1739514625 685224 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's less artificial than bogosort :)
< 1739514665 961088 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Did I say "worst case" twice... meh.
< 1739514668 134918 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, sure. Pessimal algorithms are very natural. Who hasn't seen a warehouse employee performing a slow search, checking every place where something isn't?
< 1739514686 522061 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The best case is starting with a reverse sorted array.
< 1739514721 722072 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Ah the Sherlock Holmes method.
< 1739514764 281486 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Probably the most objectionable part of that franchise... the idea that you could actually exhaust all possible explanations for a phenomenon.)
< 1739514847 24850 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :IIRC slowsort guarantees Omega(n^3) in the "best" case. It does this via the dual of divide-and-conquer, which IIRC is called multiply-and-give-up; it sets up a very large number of recursive calls regardless of whether the input array is sorted.
< 1739515202 215277 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: The thing that this does that isn't bubble-sort like is this... you can think of the extra element at sitting in the gap between the last seen array element and the next one. Then the combination of xchg and scasb does nothing to the list (the next array element becomes the extra element and vice versa, but then the extra element moves to the right). In this view the update happens on...
< 1739515208 205800 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :...restarts, when all the initial array elements are moved to the right as the extra element is moved to the very front.
< 1739515217 655881 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :at sitting -> as sitting
< 1739515291 508424 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hm. `scasb` isn't `rep scasb`, is it? `loop` is decrementing, so the outer loop should be leaving sorted elements at the end...
< 1739515296 886559 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The inspiration certainly came from bubble sort though.
> 1739515304 923614 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tri-Tru-Eso14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151930&oldid=151929 5* 03Yunasha Hotora 5* (+1503) 10
< 1739515306 396312 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The more I look at this, the worse it gets. I think I'm going to have dreams about this.
< 1739515315 804916 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe I 
< 1739515337 165302 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...Maybe I should type slower and let SSH catch up.
< 1739515367 949283 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: `scasb` is a single iteration of what `rep scasb` does. It still increments the di register, but the `rep` prefix is what decrements the counter, which in this code is done by `loop` instead.
< 1739515388 601995 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :where counter = cx register
< 1739515408 158793 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :x86 is weird.
< 1739515418 902634 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(other people say CISC ;-) )
< 1739515506 602460 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But this was the assembly language that I grew up with so I'm used to this particular weirdness. It's cozy, up to a point. I never really got into all the vector instructions, and those are growing more crazy with each generation.
< 1739515693 678733 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have an intuition for like `rep stosb` but I've never had to generalize it. First and last time I wrote for this sort of arch was undergrad.
< 1739515770 2551 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm kind of seeing it. Thanks for explaining.
> 1739515956 598897 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tri-Tru-Eso14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151931&oldid=151930 5* 03Yunasha Hotora 5* (+3) 10
< 1739517007 229023 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1739517033 347817 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1739517218 482196 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1739517245 166256 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1739517595 229580 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1739517640 926196 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1739520198 609509 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1739520449 762131 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs lisbeths :lisbeths
< 1739520637 207348 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: I think the idea of the people who wrote the standard is that if you want to use the definition in multiple compilation units then you'll put it into a header file that you #include in both compilation units, to avoid stupid mistakes where you change the definition in one place but not the other, and so token by token match isn't hard. 
> 1739520734 104801 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nya~*kwrgsfish+-HQ9`:'"rbtAzxdi814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151932&oldid=151916 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+140) 10
> 1739520785 663912 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nya~*kwrgsfish+-HQ9`:'"rbtAzxdi814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151933&oldid=151932 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+98) 10
< 1739520785 779729 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also this applies to a struct/class/union definition, it does not apply to a typedef or a type synonym defined by using, nor to importing a symbol to another namespace with using, those type aliases and symbol aliases are still compilation unit local and don't need to match at all 
< 1739521275 560735 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok so this mcr(){ while read -r i; do eval "$( printf "%s" "$i" | awk "$1" ; )" ; done ; } ; is mcr
< 1739521308 225372 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :mcr allows you to change the syntax of your terminal at will if it is a posix terminal
< 1739521365 59084 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the syntax is at your terminal prompt you type: mcr 'some_awk_program'
< 1739521437 906324 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: so this sorts only arrays of bytes? because that makes it useless not only because of the slowness but because you ... oh wait, I can't say that, I just sorted the bytes of tens of thousands of words to find anagrams, never mind then
< 1739521458 261174 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so an implementation of gnu cat is: mcr '{print $0}'
< 1739521545 151740 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the idea is mcr is not safe enough to use in a production environment but mcr4 is  being developed to be safer for those systems
< 1739521578 817369 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :mcr likely cannot be used in production becuase of its use of eval
< 1739521597 664007 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Well it's easy to adjust this to sort larger words, as long as there's a scas variant for it. So... I don't think that's the main issue :)
< 1739521635 201583 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the context in which I wrote this was asking to sort bytes
< 1739521675 559557 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, that's better then
< 1739521698 442069 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: well you claim this is a macro system, so an example that does some actual macro expansion would go a long way to support that claim and also force you to do something at least moderately nontrivial with mcr
< 1739521724 758511 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah so that example of gnu cat is an example let me show you another example
< 1739521750 998347 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: and I think I added enough disclaimers about lack of usefulness above :)
< 1739521886 34446 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: and I can't even think of a place other than this channel where I would bring this, hmm, creation up at all
< 1739521904 377162 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :eh my example I was thinking of tunred out to be a harder macro than I thought
< 1739521918 559075 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :let me show you some simple postfix but this isnt going to be a useful macro
< 1739521952 552831 :moony4!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony JOIN #esolangs moony :Kaylie! (she/her)
< 1739521955 16626 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I used a custom macro system to preprocess my source code into C source code at one point. The custom macro system used a simple sed script to preprocess my source code into an intermediate ed script, such that everything except specially marked ed directives were just appended to the output, and then I ran that intermediate code through ed to get the C source code. Then in my source file I had 
< 1739521961 277475 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :directives to put some bookmarks to mark a region, copy that region to another place, and do some string substitution on the copied version of the lines, or something like that. Fortunately I probably don't have a copy of that one anymore, so it's hard to definitely prove that this was a stupid way to write that code and that it wouldn't have been trivial to just write a C program the normal way.
< 1739521970 742088 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :mcr '{if(substr($0,1,1)=="+"){print ($2 + $3)}else{print}'
< 1739521971 774830 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: yeah
< 1739521982 437763 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so this macro should implemnet a very basic not so useful prefix addition in bash
< 1739522065 968571 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1739522066 68841 :moony4!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony NICK :moony
< 1739522174 781337 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :mcr '{if(substr($0,length($0),1)=="+"){print ($(NF - 2) - $(NF - 1))}else{print}}'
< 1739522190 570137 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :if this doesnt work I think length($0) must be changed to length($0)-1
< 1739522208 205793 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :this should implement a very crued postfix addition in the shell
< 1739522230 624697 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :don't you want to work with $1 instead
< 1739522245 498320 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm?
< 1739522271 684037 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` awk '{if($1=="+"){print ($2 + $3)}else{print}}' <<<"+ 1 2"
< 1739522273 389079 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :3
< 1739522276 754917 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :$1 is not mcr
< 1739522317 446327 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :how cat being used
< 1739522319 527352 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :show
< 1739522394 38431 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh thats similar to how mcr works
< 1739522458 235263 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :```mcr(){ while read -r i; do eval "$( printf "%s" "$i" | awk "$1" ; )" ; done ; } ; mcr '{print $0}'; fosdijfodsjfi
< 1739522459 225212 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​``mcr(){? No such file or directory
< 1739522473 229756 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :mcr doesnt work on the bot
< 1739522510 254688 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder if I should recreate that sed|ed abomination some day, but I can't really think of an esoteric application where I'd want to make repeating but modified text that way, I don't want to do it in a serious non-esoteric context, and if I want such repetition in an esoteric way I have several other choices of preprocessor now.
< 1739522533 380849 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But maybe I'll want to generate some repetitive SVG file where the repetition can't just be handled with symbol elements
< 1739522547 36468 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or repetitive html or something
< 1739522555 947297 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: sometimes, whitespace matters
< 1739522585 293805 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :```echo "mcr(){ while read -r i; do eval \"\$( printf \"%s\" \"\$i\" | awk \"\$1\" ; )\" ; done ; } ; mcr '{print \$0}'; fosdijfodsjfi" | sh
< 1739522586 257365 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​``echo? No such file or directory
< 1739522605 488549 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :indeed
< 1739522632 313511 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :do you have a bash bot?
< 1739522658 219741 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` echo $SHELL
< 1739522659 256740 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​/bin/sh
< 1739522666 364043 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm
< 1739522669 460035 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` echo $BASH
< 1739522670 349206 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​/bin/bash
< 1739522672 18485 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` echo $BASH_VERSION
< 1739522672 829190 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :5.0.3(1)-release
< 1739522694 418859 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` help [[
< 1739522695 273268 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​[[ ... ]]: [[ expression ]] \     Execute conditional command. \      \     Returns a status of 0 or 1 depending on the evaluation of the conditional \     expression EXPRESSION.  Expressions are composed of the same primaries used \     by the `test' builtin, and may be combined using the following operators: \      \       ( EXPRESSION )	Returns the value of EXPRESSION \       ! EXPRESSION		True if EXPRESSION is false; else false \       EXPR1 && EXPR
< 1739522701 290976 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :^ it is bash, don't worry
< 1739522707 421335 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it said for me that echo was not found
< 1739522712 782439 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :```echo hello
< 1739522714 872 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​``echo? No such file or directory
< 1739522722 882375 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes because you are not adding the essential space
< 1739522740 994134 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` echo "mcr(){ while read -r i; do eval \"\$( printf \"%s\" \"\$i\" | awk \"\$1\" ; )\" ; done ; } ; mcr '{print \$0}'; fosdijfodsjfi" | sh
< 1739522742 25204 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :sh: 1: fosdijfodsjfi: not found
< 1739522750 120904 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: there is some documentation at https://esolangs.org/wiki/HackEso though there's a lot missing too
< 1739522787 748485 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh... that's not even useful there, I never bothered to document the commands ` and ``, probably because I hate their nooodl
< 1739522809 61172 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :```echo "mcr(){ while read -r i; do eval \"\$( printf \"%s\" \"\$i\" | awk \"\$1\" ; )\" ; done ; } ; \nmcr '{print \$0}';\nfosdijfodsjfi" | sh
< 1739522809 921006 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​``echo? No such file or directory
< 1739522822 21930 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` echo "mcr(){ while read -r i; do eval \"\$( printf \"%s\" \"\$i\" | awk \"\$1\" ; )\" ; done ; } ; \nmcr '{print \$0}';\nfosdijfodsjfi" | sh
< 1739522823 77016 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :sh: 1: nmcr: not found \ sh: 1: nfosdijfodsjfi: not found
< 1739522841 101451 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah
< 1739522860 332984 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the whole echo "" | shell part isn't needed either
< 1739522869 393480 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :err sh, not shell
< 1739522885 812738 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` echo "mcr(){ while read -r i; do eval \"\$( printf \"%s\" \"\$i\" | awk \"\$1\" ; )\" ; done ; } ; \nmcr '{print \"echo \" \$0}';\nfosdijfodsjfi" | sh
< 1739522888 239902 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :sh: 1: nmcr: not found \ sh: 1: nfosdijfodsjfi: not found
< 1739522923 678319 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is why I dont use these bots is it always takes me 20 tries to get a command right
< 1739522981 344454 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: taking 20 tries to get the command right is fine, and if it bothers you you can use HackEso in a private message while you're testing the commands
< 1739523036 878345 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you would please open a posix terminal
< 1739523041 481381 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(small channel rules)
< 1739523048 994989 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :then plasee type mcr(){ while read -r i; do eval "$( printf "%s" "$i" | awk "$1" ; )" ; done ; } ; 
< 1739523052 150338 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :then please press return
< 1739523091 69256 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :then pleasee type mcr '{if(substr($0,1,1)=="+"){print ($2 + $3)}else{print}'
< 1739523134 253250 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :er maybe mcr '{if(substr($0,1,1)=="+"){print "echo " ($2 + $3)}else{print}'
< 1739523187 427125 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, and I guess besides the sed|ed abomination I invented buubot3 macros which lets you use perl to preprocess buubot commands, though at least the original buubot3 (but not perlbot) also had a ruby interpreter and a few more that you could technically use instead of perl
< 1739523201 27305 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I guess I invented at least three terrible preprocessors
< 1739523259 95044 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :its a skill issue for me I am not ane xpert at writing macros
< 1739523275 14791 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I only learned awk two weeks ago
< 1739523295 320140 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :do you understand how my macro ssytem works?
< 1739523366 265939 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1739523495 298047 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: you should probably write at least some short documentation with examples of usage, such as to that github repo or the esowiki, that would increase the chances that users will look at it and try to understand
< 1739523552 94893 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :its really not such a complex system
< 1739523560 555237 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you needn't make it work in HackEso in particular if you don't want to, just write examples somewhere else
< 1739523570 307399 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wrote a kind of a doc here https://github.com/memesmith0/mcr
< 1739523611 251152 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :mcr works just like a REPL but read eval print loop only there is a macro level inbetween read and eval. so it is read macro eval print loop
< 1739523671 84266 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you basically have  mcr "foo"  =  awk "foo" | sh  except that the latter is more versatile beause it can accumulate state from one line of input to the next
< 1739523722 384541 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :piping it into sh you lose so much
< 1739523728 585774 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :thats now mcr4 works is it pipes into sh
< 1739523780 53375 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :you cant open vim inside of a macro if you pipe into sh
< 1739523851 588417 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :echo 'vim < /dev/stderr' | sh
< 1739523872 628199 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :abusive? sure. but it works.
< 1739523918 50941 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow i've got to add that to mcr4!
< 1739523985 693311 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :You can accumulate state in the shell instead I suppose. And if it ends up in environment variables it can be accessed in awk (awkwardly).
< 1739524049 46267 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess one application I could try with sed|ed is to write a serializer and deserializer where the source code is expanded to a function that reads each field of a structure and a function that writes each field of a structure. though that's not too hard to do with the C preprocessor either.
< 1739524145 124850 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: write a documentation with multiple simple examples of how you could use the preprocessor. that's my recommendation.
< 1739524275 709286 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: you said that -1 would be a bad sentinel value for the float to signed overflow, but I realized that INT_MIN would be an even slightly worse sentinel value for float to unsigned conversion overflow
< 1739524302 878923 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :mcr(){ while read -r i; do printf "%s" "$i" | awk "$1" | sh < /dev/stderr ; done ; } ;
< 1739524304 517042 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so hopefully they did mean -1 for the unsigned conversions, and only the docs for the signed conversion is broken
< 1739524325 217882 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :does that make more sense to do?
< 1739524646 753404 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no
< 1739524690 377718 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yeah I hope so
> 1739524892 59273 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/PSTF Again 14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151934&oldid=151913 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+43) 10
< 1739524982 79962 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :my original mcr command works smoother than using < to direct /dev/stderr into sh
< 1739525672 794978 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :note that that's not what I did... I did it specifically for the interactive program, vim
< 1739525699 234275 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :which enables vim to gain control of the terminal, while the shell continues to read from the outer pipe
> 1739525768 870124 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/Mihai Again Twelve14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151935 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+5394) 10Created page with "1. [[Translated ZhongWen/PSTF Again |]]Special:Contributions/PrySigneToFry|You computer has a severe errL$D3h$&% ?' L$H3h(*) ?+ L$L3h,.- ?/ L$P3h021 ?3 ?6$T3h45 ?7 ?:$X3h89 ?; ?p<=? ? F  ?~#?~n
< 1739525839 91196 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :mcr(){ while read -r i; do printf "%s" "$i" | awk "$1" | sh >&2 ; done ; } ;
< 1739525854 408722 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no
< 1739525872 209359 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the last thing you want to do is break stderr
< 1739525888 414201 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :really? i dont know what >&2 does
< 1739525932 834374 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it works better in my shell tho lol
> 1739526360 54785 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/Mihai Again Twelve14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151936&oldid=151935 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+16) 10
< 1739526361 974317 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` echo a | stat -c '%N' /proc/self/fd/{0,1,2} 2>&1 | cat
< 1739526365 65807 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​'/proc/self/fd/0' -> 'pipe:[225]' \ '/proc/self/fd/1' -> 'pipe:[226]' \ '/proc/self/fd/2' -> 'pipe:[226]'
< 1739526371 717917 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` echo a | stat -c '%N' /proc/self/fd/{0,1,2} | cat
< 1739526373 993772 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​'/proc/self/fd/0' -> 'pipe:[225]' \ '/proc/self/fd/1' -> 'pipe:[226]' \ '/proc/self/fd/2' -> 'pipe:[221]'
< 1739526422 648991 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :note how in the second case, FD 2 (stderr) is different from FD 1 (stdin); that's because it's still the original pipe that the outermost shell connects to
< 1739526455 669851 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you do that in a terminal, that pipe will be a terminal /dev/pts/NNN
< 1739526487 317661 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :mmm
< 1739526525 605128 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :You did 1>&2 so it instead breaks the pipe
< 1739526531 904976 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :neither of those is particularly helpful
< 1739526737 71429 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow I dont understand how that works
< 1739526745 926845 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :is there a way you can make it into a function
< 1739526872 810876 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh I see you are showing me WHY it breaks the pipe :)
< 1739526881 841395 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I dont know what it even does lol
< 1739526931 781326 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I need the copy of sh that comes after the pipe to take over the tty of the host
< 1739527861 116173 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1739529383 639802 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1739529575 389020 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` script echo hi # I wanted to check that that really happens when you try it in a terminal, but it turns out, the script program doesn't work in HackEso
< 1739529576 473592 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :script: openpty failed: No such file or directory
< 1739529603 106554 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder why
< 1739529637 683901 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` stat -c '%N' /proc/self/fd/{0,1,2}
< 1739529638 864110 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​'/proc/self/fd/0' -> '/null' \ '/proc/self/fd/1' -> 'pipe:[224]' \ '/proc/self/fd/2' -> 'pipe:[221]'
< 1739529646 738981 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :none of these are PTYs
< 1739529708 90059 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know what script does internally but I suspect there's some tty magic to detect whether the shell is receiving input or not
< 1739529753 844665 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` mount | /bin/sed 's/.* on \([^ ]*\) type .*/\1/' # I think /dev/pts isn't mounted
< 1739529755 1923 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​/bin \ /dev \ /lib \ /sys \ /tmp \ /usr \ /proc \ /sbin \ /lib64 \ /hackenv \ /hackenv/.hg \ /etc/alternatives
< 1739529784 220416 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1739529787 477587 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or maybe it's just that it wants to mirror an outer PTY as another PTY for running the shell?
< 1739529809 45377 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I probably don't care enough to actually figure that out :P
< 1739529947 915455 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: HackEso uses pipes rather than a pty when it runs commands by default, which I think is good because some programs try to detect if you're running them in a terminal and have different behavior, such as colorized or interactive, and this way they will correctly detect that it's not a terminal
< 1739529962 552661 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the script program is supposed to run a program in a fresh terminal
< 1739529984 66099 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: yes but evidently it also assumes that it runs inside a terminal
< 1739529998 506740 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :which makes sense because then it can just copy weird things from one to the other
< 1739530001 572799 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think so, but maybe I misremember
< 1739530005 781004 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :instead of being a fully fledged terminal emulator
< 1739530034 827153 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe I'm misreading the evidence
< 1739530037 101060 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION shrugs

< 1739530039 268036 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it just fails here because the libc function that creates a fresh pseudo-terminal needs /dev/pts mounted, but it's not mounted in HackEso
< 1739530046 397287 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, misinterpreting
< 1739530051 654248 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(or possibly not libc)
< 1739530099 317560 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait hold on
< 1739530108 278506 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess `script bash < /dev/null > /dev/null 2>&1` works so I'm wrong.
< 1739530118 995815 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` script -c 'echo hi'
< 1739530119 935894 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :script:
< 1739530170 176763 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I was invoking script wrong
< 1739530195 7903 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` cat typescript
< 1739530196 61389 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :cat: typescript: No such file or directory
< 1739530198 517882 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm
< 1739530213 61500 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` script -c 'echo DumA'  cat typescript # but it doesn't matter, it still doesn't work
< 1739530214 217972 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :script: openpty failed: No such file or directory
< 1739530219 856269 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` script -c 'echo DumA' && cat typescript # but it doesn't matter, it still doesn't work
< 1739530221 173553 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :script: openpty failed: No such file or directory
< 1739530283 244265 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Regarding mounts, I mount /dev using the UML hostfs type, which brings in the device nodes from the host's /dev/pts, that might certainly confuse some programs since it's plain weird.
< 1739530297 777690 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm
< 1739530313 148462 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` strace -eopenat script -c 'echo Hi' 2>&1 | grep dev
< 1739530314 410341 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :No output.
< 1739530317 551989 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know how openpty is actually implemented
< 1739530318 227262 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm
< 1739530370 78039 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It "should" probably instead set up a minimal static /dev on the initrd or something, and then mount /dev/pts (and a tmpfs on /dev/shm) on top of it.
< 1739530386 693818 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see an openat(AT_FDCWD, "/dev/ptmx", O_RDWR)   = 3
< 1739530387 927257 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :here
< 1739530441 96385 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` echo /dev/pt*
< 1739530443 215395 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​/dev/ptmx /dev/pts
< 1739530484 603665 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` ls /dev/pts
< 1739530484 789714 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm
< 1739530486 873416 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :0 \ ptmx
< 1739530488 96283 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`eject
< 1739530490 71991 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :eject? No such file or directory
< 1739530496 260819 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION shrugs

< 1739530594 304843 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :how does that bringing /dev in with UMLFS work? if you try to open and ioctl a device in the guest, will it open and ioctl it in the host, or will it just stat the device and emulate opening the device in the guest?
< 1739530636 738524 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` ls -F /dev
< 1739530638 641144 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :char/ \ console@ \ core@ \ fd@ \ full \ initctl@ \ log@ \ mqueue/ \ net/ \ null \ ptmx@ \ pts/ \ random \ shm/ \ stderr@ \ stdin@ \ stdout@ \ tty \ urandom \ zero
< 1739531259 222452 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1739531298 436613 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1739531429 665162 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` grep dev LOG
< 1739531430 862257 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :openat(AT_FDCWD, "/dev/ptmx", O_RDWR)   = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory) \ openat(AT_FDCWD, "/dev/ptyp0", O_RDWR)  = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory)
< 1739531464 453238 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(from `` strace -eopenat -o LOG script -c 'ls Hi' >/dev/null; grep dev LOG )
< 1739531490 602095 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(something about `script` totally messes up the way HackEso captures output)
< 1739531521 908409 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` ls -la /dev/ptmx
< 1739531523 869597 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :lrwxrwxrwx 1 0 0 8 Jul  1  2024 /dev/ptmx -> pts/ptmx
< 1739531528 985407 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` ls -la /dev/pts/ptmx
< 1739531530 276832 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :crw-rw-rw- 1 0 0 5, 2 Feb 14 11:12 /dev/pts/ptmx
< 1739531561 913325 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` cat /dev/ptmx
< 1739531562 857088 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :cat: /dev/ptmx: No such file or directory
< 1739531575 909263 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Fun!
< 1739531686 321106 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe that only works on a real devpts file system, not when you're trying to open an ordinary device file on a "normal" file system with those device minor and major numbers
< 1739531764 318110 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The thing is... the directory entry clearly exists. So I expected ENODEV or maybe EACCES as an error, but never ENOENT.
< 1739531797 310336 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But maybe UML translates it to something that doesn't exist on the host.
< 1739531802 493020 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, but some of those errno codes are overloaded
< 1739531803 842573 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And leaks that error.
< 1739531849 588683 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway. As we can see, just because it's there doesn't mean it's there. I love computers.
< 1739531874 435848 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no no, that's a feature
< 1739531888 756957 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :UMLbox is protecting you here, not letting the guest just directly open a device in the host
< 1739531888 793081 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, rephrasing: Just because it can be seen doesn't mean it's there.
< 1739531926 989108 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :imagine if you could just mkdev a device as root in the guest and overwrite the host's hard disk that way
< 1739531936 171549 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: And if it just said ENODEV I'd be completely fine with it.
< 1739531947 36328 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The way it is, I'm slightly disappointed :P
< 1739531958 971072 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait wait
< 1739531969 772691 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Pretty sure the /dev mount via hostfs just brings in the device nodes, it won't do any magic beyond that.
< 1739531982 219007 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man4/ptmx.4.html => "When a process opens /dev/ptmx, it gets a file descriptor for a pseudoterminal master"
< 1739531993 592174 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: yes
< 1739531996 36358 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Opening ptmx is suppposed to create an entry for the slave terminal, maybe *that* is what the ENOENT is for.
< 1739531999 591933 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's how openpty works
< 1739532023 600826 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, what fizzie says
< 1739532024 659932 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Because that one wouldn't show up in the /dev in the guest side.
< 1739532049 628837 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: well it's opening /dev/ptmx that returns ENOENT
< 1739532068 208321 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can still be right for whatever is happening under the hood of course
< 1739532083 613843 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was wondering if I could eject the cdrom drive of the host with the relevant IOCTL, but there's no /dev/cdrom
< 1739532112 974173 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` rm LOG
< 1739532114 437189 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :No output.
< 1739532116 273128 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` ls | wc
< 1739532117 623485 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​     52      52     400
< 1739532124 734942 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` ls
< 1739532126 790061 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​🌱 \ 3 \ a.o \ a.out \ asmbf-1.2.7 \ banana.txt \ bef2 \ bfi \ bin \ Burlesque \ canary \ cmd.whatis \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ detect \ detect.c \ egel-master \ egel-scripts \ egel.zip \ eGtbSgN68aHU \ fence.c \ foo \ he-ng.7z \ he-ng.7z.base64 \ he-ngc \ he-ngx \ hlu \ JoaoDir \ just \ karma \ le \ nonoodl \ olist.new \ output.b \ paste \ pd \ pd.c \ perlV \ pg \ pg.cxx \ pikhqbow_tst \ program \ -.s \ spline \ spout \ stall \ test \ test.sh \ this.p
< 1739532133 118538 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, that's what I meant. It's the act of opening /dev/ptmx is what's supposed to create the other slave entry (IIRC), not any action you do on it after you've opened it, and maybe that part involves checking that it was made and that's what's responsible for the errno that results. Or something along those lines.
< 1739532176 178116 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` wc 🌱
< 1739532177 193318 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​  3  14 163 🌱
< 1739532181 48000 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` cat 🌱 
< 1739532182 97571 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​#!/bin/bash \ a=(${@// / }) \ python3 -c"import random as r;x=range;r.seed(${a[1]});print(''.join([chr(([*x(32,127), 10])[int(r.random()*96)]) for i in x(${a[0]})]))"
< 1739532209 408272 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`cat canary
< 1739532210 491262 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Why are you taking Polly down into the mine? Polly's a parrot, not a canary! And where's my cracker?
< 1739532695 270099 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, that's my guess for where the ENOENT is from. ptmx_open does internally some sort of `open` call and directly returns its return value: https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/drivers/tty/pty.c#L849-L851
< 1739532763 942147 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :`ls /dev
< 1739532765 932312 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :char \ console \ core \ fd \ full \ initctl \ log \ mqueue \ net \ null \ ptmx \ pts \ random \ shm \ stderr \ stdin \ stdout \ tty \ urandom \ zero
< 1739532781 468010 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's surprisingly short.
< 1739532801 779436 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it's because it runs in a container with its own filesystem namespace, so it's not the "real" /dev of the host.
< 1739532817 668146 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(For some extra sandboxing beyond the UML.)
< 1739532991 903456 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder if the fact that /dev/shm is read-only might also be breaking some programs.
< 1739533000 801620 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` touch /dev/shm/foo
< 1739533001 883919 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :touch: cannot touch '/dev/shm/foo': Read-only file system
< 1739533040 504647 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: isn't it's because it pulls in the /dev/ from the root file system that is used only during boot, rather than the actual /dev/ that's mounted as a devfs?
< 1739533117 66051 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd expect the real /dev would have device files for some disks, but it doesn't seem like there's any here (there's a /dev/fd , but fd doesn't mean floppy disk in this context)
< 1739533117 378740 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :No, that /dev is a (read-only) UML hostfs mount. There is no /dev on the initrd.
< 1739533158 796721 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry, I don't mean initrd, I mean the /dev directory in the host's root file system
< 1739533167 845131 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or is that root filesystem an initrd?
< 1739533236 556155 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, that's what you meant. No, it's not an initrd, but I'm relatively sure it wouldn't pull in the /dev from the root file system, it would pull the mounted /dev instead, if that's what was at /dev where the UML was running.
< 1739533253 958881 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :But the reason why it has so few entries is because it's wrapped inside a systemd-nspawn container.
< 1739533350 328150 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure I understand that. Do you mean that the host systemd sets up a new root file system for a container, and the UML is running on the host in that container and with that file system as its root file system?
< 1739533395 302403 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, if I remember the setup correctly.
< 1739533409 290975 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that would make sense
< 1739533559 28472 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean it makes sense that that's how you're invoking UML, as part of the outer sandboxing. But I don't understand why you bring that into the guest, rather than setting up a different /dev directory for the guest, and maybe mount a devpts inside the guest over it if UML supports that
< 1739533567 30400 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1739533600 871263 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I agree, but I inherited that bit from the original umlbox and just never changed it. :)
< 1739533619 924992 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see
< 1739533741 892733 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there may be a bit of bootstrapping problem where you need a /dev before you can create a dev inside, because, at least for older non-UML linuxes, the kernel tries to open /dev/console before running init but after mounting the root file system, in order to give init the three standard handles. I think they changed that part of the code in the
< 1739533742 394041 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :kernel, but I don't know if a bootstrap /dev is still needed.
< 1739533877 835055 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, the umlbox initrd literally has a single file in it (/init). It starts by creating a /console (no /dev) and opening those file handles itself: https://github.com/fis/umlbox/blob/master/init.c#L73-L76
< 1739533952 27617 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also I'd forgotten that the command doesn't actually run with / being the UML initrd's /.
< 1739533960 536669 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see
< 1739534019 383527 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It sets up a subdirectory called /host and then chroots to it when it's running things: https://github.com/fis/umlbox/blob/master/init.c#L402-L403
< 1739534348 155588 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you could argue that means it's 4 levels of sandboxing deep: there's some unknown actual physical computing substrate operated by the VPS provider, they use a virtualization solution to offer me a logical computer (I think it's hardware-assisted KVM), I use Linux namespaces to set up a container, and an UML inside the container, and a classic chroot jail inside the UML.
< 1739534440 205738 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, but I think the more relevant for the innermost layer is not the chroot but the chown
< 1739534442 893498 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`id
< 1739534443 888995 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :uid=1000 gid=1000 groups=1000
> 1739536139 255414 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151937&oldid=151905 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+194) 10
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< 1739537751 285766 :SGautam!uid286066@id-286066.ilkley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs SGautam :Siddharth Gautam
> 1739537811 678546 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151938&oldid=151536 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (-937) 10/* Horribly translated variants */
> 1739537892 962982 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151939&oldid=151938 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+19) 10/* Horribly translated variants */
> 1739538674 606782 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated Tri14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151940 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+1930) 10Created page with "Translated Tri is a horribly translated version of [[Tri]].  I should take more languages in the translator machine next!  1. Take this: 
 // Prints "Hello, world!" to the console. // inc inc psh psh psh mul sto nxt sto psh mul lst psh add  sto prn nxt zro c
> 1739538744 193979 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated Tri14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151941&oldid=151940 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (-1) 10
> 1739538898 264869 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151942&oldid=151937 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+51) 10
> 1739538996 99251 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151943&oldid=151879 5* 03Squareroot12621 5* (+12) 10
> 1739539263 33961 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Squareroot1262114]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151944 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+139) 10Created page with "Are you squareroot12621 on the CGoL forums? ~~~~"
< 1739539264 438683 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1739539544 427390 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:MihaiEso14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151945&oldid=151077 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+79) 10/* More data */
> 1739540221 84802 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:MihaiEso14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151946&oldid=151945 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+0) 10/* More data */
< 1739541416 387266 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1739541617 179156 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1739542104 781370 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StormLang14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151947 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+7852) 10Created page with "StormLang is collaboratively designed by PSTF, None1, and islptng.  = Language Overview = StormLang is turing-complete, supports to make gorgeous program and access the Internet, and may also construct artifical intelligences, high-level, strong like the fire, e
< 1739544273 63333 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :turns out my version of shell macros that dont rely on eval were broken the whole time
< 1739544278 593679 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I am stuck with the eval version for now
< 1739544640 622741 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I spend like 30 solid hours on mrc4 feelsbadman.jpg
> 1739545143 388316 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Anthonykozar/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151948&oldid=151876 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (+1327) 10Testing some formatting converted from Markdown
< 1739545288 316552 :lynndotpy6!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 QUIT :Quit: bye bye
< 1739545346 4795 :lynndotpy6!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 JOIN #esolangs lynndotpy :lynn
< 1739545858 892477 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
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< 1739545998 617920 :sam__!~sam@lullcec.org QUIT :Client Quit
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< 1739549092 452043 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
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> 1739550932 33326 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151954&oldid=148148 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-63) 10Removed unnecessary information and included my username
< 1739551742 276177 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: What's the bigger goal of these macro systems?
< 1739552089 268272 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
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> 1739552368 439563 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151955&oldid=151953 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+96) 10
< 1739553320 754291 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: 
< 1739553325 410833 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is a macro ssytem as a platform
< 1739553351 698960 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the macro system just aims to expand the macros efficiently and have a good language for describing the expansion of macros
< 1739553414 455351 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i personally plan to use this software to write my own macros but I need to think and reflect upon it for a few weeks before i do so
< 1739553445 182005 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :what do I plan on using the macro system for? for writing a compiler for fastlisp and a tool to integrate fastlisp into unix systems
< 1739553463 956774 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ultiamtely fastlisp is to be a master system and posix and python3 are to be worker systems of fastlisp
< 1739553720 86474 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: Nifty. Sounds like a lot of work though.
< 1739553795 815355 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :after studying this topic for 12 years it doesnt feel like work anymore it just feels normal
< 1739554009 101557 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure, but surely it's also been a couple of shifts. I can't imagine spending more than about 5yrs on any one line of study.
< 1739554059 601904 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I specialize in language architecture and I have been saving myself for *my* language
< 1739554093 806635 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I specialize in computability theory and every (Turing-complete) language is uniquely terrible.
< 1739554123 386722 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Still, I think it's cool to have a big goal like that.
< 1739554164 480528 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :my research in particular has to do with developing the easiest programming language possible
< 1739554211 970389 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh. Have you seen Quorum? I think it's a good warning to folks who want a language to be easy, readable, etc. at the cost of other features.
< 1739554228 575765 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :no I havent seen quorum whats that
< 1739554231 701914 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Still, sometimes that line of research produces cool stuff like Scratch.
< 1739554277 893948 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Quorum is an evidence-oriented language which incrementally changes to improve its readability. Same idea as Python, but taken to a scientific extreme. https://quorumlanguage.com/
< 1739554302 109114 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmmmmm.... I will ahve to give this a look thank you
< 1739554318 825470 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder how my approach with fastlisp differs from quorum
< 1739554323 951903 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The punchline is that Quorum tastes like early PHP or Java, with very little abstractive ability and requiring a minimum of five lines of code to express a concept.
< 1739554361 291616 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :is that good or bad?
< 1739554389 93841 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd say that it's bad. A language shouldn't require lots of ceremonies in order to express an idea.
< 1739554449 225691 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :public ThisCurrentReply subclasses IRCReply { to emitNextLine(emitter) { emitter.write("Imagine if every IRC message had to start with <<< this crap. Ridiculous, right?") } }
< 1739554549 215592 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I will make a note to myself to try to avoid boilerplate
< 1739554561 432000 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I hope that I have done a good job of it with fastlisp
< 1739554603 860245 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The fastlisp examples that you shared were alright. They did have one thing that I have been thinking about for the past few years: all of the names were declared.
< 1739554619 6433 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm...tired of names. But that is a personal preference and not one that I expect other people to share.
< 1739554685 336879 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So, ignoring the names, consider a Quorum class like https://quorumlanguage.com/Libraries/Game/Graphics/DrawableShape.html . It's basically AWT-era Java, and it sucks for the same reasons.
< 1739554709 415374 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I might end up extending teh standard so that names dont have to be declared
< 1739554717 663930 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :fastlisp also has nameless functions
< 1739554763 418746 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, yeah. Lambdas? Is fastlisp a Lisp-1 or Lisp-2? I don't judge; we see both around here.
< 1739554786 766490 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :in the year of our lord 2024 on the day of feburary 14 we are on fastlisp version 5 whos standard I have not publsihed yet
< 1739554800 71363 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :#this is a comment. any line whos first character is #
< 1739554822 520220 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :(lambda x (lambda y x)) this is a lambda that takes an x then takes a y then returns x
< 1739554850 763074 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :(lambda x (x x x)) this is a lambda that takes an x and applies it to itself three times
< 1739554885 683201 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :"this is a string. strings are not specified to be able to contain the quotation symbol"
< 1739554912 416238 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :strings compile to linked lists of true or false. true compiles to (lambda x (lambda y x)) false compiles to (lamdba x (lambda y y))
< 1739554984 713077 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the way to really do fastlisp in my mind is with names and without definitions. so you provide the names for the functions you want and the definitions of those names are passed into the program
< 1739555283 303546 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Interesting. Where's the name "fastlisp" come from?
> 1739555285 927784 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151956&oldid=151886 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-8) 10
< 1739555398 315630 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :fastlisp comes from the meme fcalled fastman
< 1739555647 489297 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :when I was 18 years old I created the onebag subreddit about living out of a backpack. some notable onebaggers were luigi mangione and sam bankmen freid
< 1739555678 595124 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :years ago I was ousted from the subreddit because I was cancelled for using harmful language as a joke
< 1739555703 281349 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :not wanting ot be censored again I made the fastman meme which extended the idea of onebagging and captured its ideas into a single jpg image that couldnt be censored
< 1739555780 330725 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :my discord is called fast server. my meme is called fast meme. my lisp is called fast lisp. i name everything fast. I probably should rename mcr to be called fastmcr
< 1739555856 293842 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...A better way to introduce the concept of living out of one bag might be the film Up in the Air (2009), which features several monologues by George Clooney about the philosophy.
< 1739555991 69074 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :indeed as well as the film and book titled jack reacher
< 1739556023 941814 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i live in a small trailer that is little more than a shed and I only keep in the trailer what would be in a hotel
< 1739556058 916312 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. I know a guy who lives in a yurt. I've also heard of Mongolia, although I've never visited.
< 1739556086 263124 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i lived out of my pockets for 1 year
< 1739556089 982276 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i have one pair of clothing
< 1739556120 813864 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :my phone is the same dimensions as the ipad mini
< 1739556133 671965 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :slightly larger than an unfolded samsung galaxy z fold
< 1739556184 653454 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i document the fastmeme here on thefastscrolls.neocities.org
> 1739556252 977807 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151957&oldid=151956 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+69) 10
> 1739556261 664386 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151958&oldid=151957 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+6) 10
> 1739556272 191818 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151959&oldid=151958 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1) 10
> 1739556298 919014 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151960&oldid=151959 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+18) 10
< 1739556325 559486 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i have fruityloops studio on my pocketable tablet which is like a full electronic music production studio with modular synthesizers and a midi
< 1739556336 931596 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :instead of carrying the classic travellers guitar
> 1739556346 474563 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151961 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1) 10Created page with "a"
> 1739556355 10419 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151962&oldid=151960 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-139) 10
> 1739556370 238513 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151963&oldid=151961 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+136) 10
> 1739556390 565687 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151964&oldid=151962 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+41) 10
< 1739556445 267066 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hey, please don't post memetic hazards here. If you do it again, you're going to get an earful about metaphysics.
< 1739556486 69668 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, consider being direct. I'm not going to click through generated content in the hopes that some of it will be enlightening.
< 1739556544 60232 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :generated?
< 1739556668 728507 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, yeah. Also I'm not usually moved by aesthetics. Like, earlier when talking about SectorLisp, I was not kidding when I say that the problems with expressivity preclude its usage as a development platform or piece of production system.
< 1739556692 80945 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And I'm not going to ignore that jart's aesthetic desires are partially driven by her fascism, either.
< 1739556746 442715 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm something of a brutalist and I care much more about the semantic structure and machine behaviors of a system than its surface syntax.
< 1739556780 996616 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i love jart i started naming my variables j because of her
< 1739556814 57156 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ive spoken with jart in irc she has visted #lambdacalculus
< 1739556851 232209 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Be wary of her, as she's well-connected to Rationalists and may try to pull you into a Bay Area cult. Also, y'know, the fascism.
< 1739556959 777771 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so in every good community theres some bad apples and in every bad community theres a few good apples
< 1739556983 522102 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :for example tumblr is mostly good people but it has some bad folks
< 1739556993 21691 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :reddit mostly good people as well but a few bad apples
< 1739557018 404221 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And a few bad apples spoil the whole bunch. With apples, it's ethylene; with fascists, it's hateful memes. For example, jart's projects are named after various racist jokes and slurs. At scale, if a community tolerates it, they become a Nazi bar. Look at HN for a real example.
< 1739557034 922380 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :have you ever hung out inside of a meth den and just people watched?
< 1739557083 5554 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :some onine communties attract all kinds of people good and bad
< 1739557123 399520 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I grew up in Lane County, Oregon, one of the meth-production hotspots of the 90s. The local newspaper had a listing of "meth houses", houses which were no longer livable due to being used for meth production. Reclaiming meth houses is extremely expensive and meth users did not pay for it.
< 1739557136 199421 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you have ever seen the show jerry springer it is all about getting high on the drama of the social situation that the guests are going through
< 1739557156 752434 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and a decent portion of the people attracted to some of these hateful websites are just there to observe because it is fascinating
< 1739557190 300826 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure, but that doesn't justify their existence.
< 1739557209 432281 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i once had a tattoo artist who told me 'I love hearing the crazy stories from bigfoot people"
< 1739557226 154291 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :he said "i love hearing conspiracy theories from flat earthers"
< 1739557243 240521 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so some people are drawn to certain discords because of the allure of the scene
< 1739557248 898087 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :not because they themselves are hateful or bigoted
< 1739557254 593233 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And again, scale matters. The worst of the late-90s talk-show hosts, Oprah, introduced so much pseudoscience into the common discourse that we can blame her for e.g. multiple preventable outbreaks of communicable diseases.
< 1739557280 443896 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would say that bigfoot conspiracies are like exotic art
< 1739557296 178069 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :have you ever seen the video "alex jones is anime"
< 1739557324 377321 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Bigfoot sightings are just bears. Boring but true.
< 1739557335 174707 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :but what about a bigfut hunter sighting
< 1739557349 836172 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are bigfoot hunter hunters
< 1739557375 3546 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so these communits have all kinds of strange people glom onto them
< 1739557381 664879 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it is THOSE people tha tmake me glom on
< 1739557385 446856 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :not the rhetoric
< 1739557450 178959 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :one of the best places to go meet dev ops engineers is comic con in seattle
< 1739557453 277239 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure, but fascism isn't mere rhetoric. Having grown up in a fascist police state, I can attest that there are real harms done to real people by the police on behalf of moneyed and partisan interests.
< 1739557483 31106 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure I dont support fascism
< 1739557490 698533 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Another good place to meet people is SeaGL in Seattle. You'll find that SeaGL's organizers don't allow racism or other hate; why do you suppose that is?
< 1739557511 194179 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :they probably get paid to do that
< 1739557543 241938 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Fundamentally, fascists adore surface appearances because they don't have anything going on underneath. jart doesn't actually have any interesting insights about computer science; all of her work is gimmicks that have been trotted out for code competitions since before she was born.
< 1739557573 53051 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ha, no, SeaGL made that decision because fascists will make the event worse.
< 1739557580 799490 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :think about this for example lets say china attacked the us and we went to war in retalitation
< 1739557601 488110 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can go on the littel redbook app which his chinese tiktok and I can talk to people on the other side of that war
< 1739557614 178797 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :that has never happened in history
< 1739557624 844058 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :that I can go meet my political opponents face to face with no danger to my person
< 1739557628 127201 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's not a serious thought. That's a teenage fantasy.
< 1739557637 937193 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :its just an example
< 1739557661 355052 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"China attacks NATO member" is a terrible example that ignores the past half-century of Pacific diplomacy.
< 1739557665 258326 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :similarly people who are racist and bigoted are not normally people who I could meet and try to learn about them
< 1739557683 605058 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I dont even go there for the racist or bigoted people I go there for the other kinds of people that also flock to those spaces
< 1739557699 556849 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the racist people are just the loudest people in the room in those spaces but they arent the majority
< 1739557714 517110 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :its just a weird place where freaks show up to tell you the truth
> 1739557746 445181 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151965&oldid=151526 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+349) 10/* WoUlD yOu MiNd If I tHoUgHt Of YoUr "BRING BACK THE OLD SANDBOX" As An ExAmPlE pRoGrAm? */
< 1739557786 414041 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's no such thing as a silent majority. The statistics are fairly well-settled.
< 1739557805 316423 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh ok
< 1739557806 691170 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1BneeJTDcU
< 1739557834 38560 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can go meet breast cancer survivors tonight
< 1739557853 904569 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can go and talk to locals of the capital of somolia and talk to the owner of a restaurant there
< 1739557857 476601 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :over the phone
< 1739557867 228847 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i can call up the university of helsinki within 7 minutes
< 1739557875 754406 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can meat a n y o n e
< 1739557982 180132 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :im working with these fbi agents who are cracking these /soc/ grooming discords and I am collecting all these discord links and sharing them with the feds
< 1739558021 382130 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :a couple years ago I was working with the police to go after this gang of swatters and my family was swatted 16 times during that and the head of that ring was extradited to usa and is in federal prison
< 1739558027 693901 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know if eating rocks is why you glow.
< 1739558120 637023 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :theres just certain discords where all kind of interesting people show up of a wide range and variety and type
< 1739558128 590371 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and its discords where you can say anything that isnt illegal to say
< 1739558167 720284 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :my macro system is all about saying things that are illegal to say in the shell
< 1739558167 908971 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure; Discord exists to collect and centralize data on its users into one giant database, and Discord won't say how law enforcement accesses that database.
< 1739558192 704525 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :we need a distributed version of discord 
< 1739558196 894518 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Then it's not really a macro system, is it? Macros are about expansion and composition.
< 1739558198 636095 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :but e v e ry  o n e is on discor
< 1739558206 965920 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :my dad, my brother, my boss, my coworkers, they all have discord
< 1739558296 488386 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway I am a star trek guy I am all about peace and love and equality and the higher realms of the mind
< 1739558305 428602 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i think communism could work if it was applied properly
< 1739558311 536208 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In any West Coast state, using Discord can't be a condition of employment, unless your boss actually pays for a private guild. And IME they usually don't pay, so you can tell them to bite a bumper.
< 1739558331 790360 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it isnt a condition of employment, no
< 1739558338 417237 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :but its easier to just do it all on discord
< 1739558344 11359 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :our other store uses slack
< 1739558360 395036 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :its a mutally agreed upon thing we all prefer to be able to communicate
< 1739558372 341874 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And again, scale matters. Discord only has trillions of data points. Facebook has hundreds of trillions, and is actively complicit in three genocides right now, although their chatbots will only admit to two of them.
< 1739558406 119337 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :facebook is being funded out the wazoo by hedge funds and by congress critters if discord had that funding they might be able to scale it
< 1739558421 221024 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :facebook also has ads discord doesnt :)
< 1739558447 843510 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Incorrect. Facebook's growth is fueled by the same thing as the genocides, and it's not ads, premium features, or nebulous bankers. Facebook cares more about growth than *anything else*.
< 1739558472 223742 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe with this metaverse stuff I wil be able to have the same experience on facebook as on discord but lately i havent been getting what I need from facebook
< 1739558483 41529 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :they put a limit on how many times i can click the like button per day that is so cringe
< 1739558496 990872 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1739558529 953021 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1739558539 843416 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :do you know the allure behind terry a davis?
< 1739558546 719516 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :that is the samer eason why I am drawn to these discords
< 1739558564 190257 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Go find a Mastodon server whose rules you would be willing to follow and whose community makes posts that you like. Be aware that, given what you've said so far, many of the popular servers would not be willing to host you; you may find yourself on a "free speech" right-wing instance.
< 1739558577 310782 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1739558605 185316 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm an Oregon native and I know Terry's story. It's not alluring, it's a disappointment and yet another indictment of our failed healthcare systems as well as our failed psychiatric-care systems, at both the federal and state level.
< 1739558658 661554 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I grew up in Eugene. I went to see Ken Kesey's bus. It's not romantic, not in the context of the constant inability of our vulnerable and disabled folks to get the care that they need.
< 1739558664 976775 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :you are the second person to recommend mastadon for me I am goign to make an account and try it out
> 1739558666 864978 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zidryx myno14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151966 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+223) 10Created page with "Zidryx myno is [[python]] but every character is caeser-shifted the length of the program mod 26 == hello world ==  jlchn("byffi qilfx") == cat ==  dfwbh(wbdih()) == a+b problem ==  o=wbdih();p=wbdih();dfdwbh(wbh(a)+wbh(b))"
< 1739558693 456829 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ideally I would like an expereince much like how old reddit was in 2014
< 1739558703 315030 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I cant have that so thesee discords are the next best thing
< 1739558730 618523 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Then you want Lemmy. Be aware that the largest Lemmy instances are Marxist-Leninist and you may have to shop around for one that you like.
< 1739558759 322702 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't use Discord.
< 1739558818 866996 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :discord is my whole life
< 1739558845 479667 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm permanently banned from Discord because I failed the vibe check when I initially registered. They only want users that have relatively weak security, although we don't understand exactly how that's determined.
< 1739558886 941615 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow thats interesting
< 1739558903 198501 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :well good luck toy ou I have no choice but to use discord until another reddit comes along
< 1739558960 239081 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Use Discord if you want to, but you should not expect everyone to do so.
< 1739558997 307845 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that IRC and other stuff is better anyways
< 1739559009 598448 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(depending on what kinds of communications you intend)
> 1739559038 687225 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/trust quine14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151967 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+113) 10Created page with "
import os print("please enter my source code") source_code=input() os.system("cls") print(source_code)
"
< 1739559040 715035 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh i mean I think discord is on an evolutionary path towards something that everyone can use
< 1739559060 122517 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the magic of discord is nto in its dev ops but in its user interface. thats why people like it is its clever ui
< 1739559071 130689 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't use Discord because I'm upset by how it's attempting to monopolize online conversation (and to some extent is attempting to monopolize /information/ – my current view on that is that they are trying but have only been mildly successful)
< 1739559078 552852 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it makes ti easy to make communities that can chat and call
< 1739559110 347420 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so many small communities store all the information they're tracking on their Discord rather than using a world-readable website
< 1739559129 986694 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure, it makes it easy to set up new walled gardens inside the larger walled garden, and for each new inner garden to appear private.
< 1739559154 871904 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah I definitely dont agree witht he walled garden part you should be allowed to make your discord searchable
< 1739559165 39924 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is prettye asy to find discords for projects like python or debian though
< 1739559177 267561 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :those discords are actually run really well
< 1739559185 800499 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I'm currently years into a protracted argument in the Lojban community about whether a particular dialect exists. The speakers only discuss it within an invite-only Discord guild and refuse to publish any information about it.
< 1739559202 562665 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: isn't that just a debate about the definition of "exists"?
< 1739559216 270689 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unless you assume the speakers are lying about having invented the dialect
< 1739559253 551013 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are some esolangs in a similar situation (although, it's generally "one person has designed the esolang and how it works, and has disclosed its existence but no details", rather than multiple people being involved)
< 1739559283 114423 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Lojban is a fork of Loglan which is dedicated to the public domain. Historically, the community doesn't consider anything to be publically documented unless it's been dedicated as such. This Discord group both wants people to endorse the dialect, and also not to understand how to speak it.
< 1739559318 650290 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :do they appreciate that this request is not particularly convincing?
< 1739559355 928349 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The Loglan v Lojban lawsuit predates the Paramount v Klingon lawsuit, so we have slightly different norms around conlangs, but it's similar to the expectation today that if you make a fancy conlang then you need to explain its usage.
< 1739559379 608042 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Discord will require you to use the excessive Discord software and to use their servers too, and IRC does not require specialized software (although having it is useful anyways, it is not actually required).
< 1739559402 197691 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Why are they trying to endorse a dialect that also should not understand? It does not seem useful, isn't it?
< 1739559403 356299 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Yes. But also, over the past 5yrs of the dispute, I've built up a pile of hundreds of Metamath theorems, and in the process I've raised the standards for documenting forks of Lojban. I'm happy to help any dialect or fork with modernizing, *as long as they share alike*.
< 1739559408 510307 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess my viewpoint is mostly "if it's private and undocumented, it mostly doesn't matter to other people whether or not it exists, but there isn't much point putting it onto public lists if you can't do anything with it"
< 1739559460 818065 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, if it's not got a logic, then it's not a logical language. And if it's not logical, then why is it built on Lojban? It's "logic cosplay", to quote one of those Discord group members.
< 1739559500 107947 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(for context, zzo38 and I have both been known to use IRC via typing out all the commands using netcat, telnet, or the like, rather than an IRC client – mostly I do that when I need a second simultaneous connection to IRC to test something or other)
< 1739559538 709273 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and zzo38 has a sort of IRC semi-client which handles some things automatically but uses raw IRC commands for other things, but I don't konw the details
< 1739559565 543780 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And again I wouldn't mind, except that links to the Discord are then spammed in the public communities. And who wouldn't want to go to the invite-only Discord that excludes all of those mean people in the public channels!?
< 1739559591 600947 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Of course, I *am* mean. Can't argue against that.
< 1739559641 930857 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : I'm permanently banned from Discord because I failed the vibe check when I initially registered. They only want users that have relatively weak security, although we don't understand exactly how that's determined. ← although malicious explanations are quite plausible, there's also typically a non-malicious explanation for that sort of thing – companies generally don't want banned users coming back to their platform, and when someone is connecting 
< 1739559643 509561 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in a strongly private way it can be hard to determine whether or not they are the same as some other person
< 1739559707 974087 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Rumor is that it could have been as simple as using Firefox on Linux. Their ToS forbids me from experimenting or attempting to learn what actually happened.
< 1739559733 990583 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wikipedia's rules about using Tor are a good example, and approximate to "anyone can access Wikipedia read-only via Tor, but if you want to make edits like that, you will first have to convince us of who you are and that your edits won't be a problem, and then you will be able to edit via logging in"
< 1739559754 491051 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is about the most open of a policy that makes sense, because otherwise it would be trivial to circumvent blocks like that, and many people have trieed
< 1739559764 289187 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, I gave my email, accepted the ToS, verified my email and phone number, and *then* was permabanned on first login. There's no recourse and it looks like their workflow was designed to keep folks like me in a little information ditch.
< 1739559942 51857 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...Sorry, I've been on this rant before but 
< 1739559950 102362 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :only just now recognized it. I'll go take a break.
< 1739560494 515716 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do like the way that IRC has both channel ops and network opers – if someone is attacking the network as a whole, or if the channel ops aren't around / are unavailable, the network opers can take over, but aren't needed in most cases
< 1739560512 500916 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I imagine that most chat networks do something similar but are less transparent about it
< 1739560602 203883 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I also like the way that Libera both allows and encourages channel ops to hide their op status, so that conversations don't get distorted by having an op present and people don't act weirdly round them – many IRC networks aren't like that and it leads to a somewhat weird social dynamic)
< 1739560980 250325 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i been up for 3 days writing mcr4 and still dont have a working version
< 1739561117 810163 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd recommend sleeping – you get slower at programming when you've been awake for ages, so you'll probably finish it faster even taking the time spent asleep into account
< 1739561151 181828 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1739561278 720144 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :no when I stay awake I become more smart and invincible
< 1739561318 343750 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :bang energy drink is much healhthier htan sleep
< 1739561327 732920 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: FWIW the "weird" dynamic is explainable by a single unified theory: power and responsibility are dual. This does lead rather directly into some philosophy that I know you're not especially fond of.
< 1739561395 563159 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i will code iit in pseudocode b4 i sleep
< 1739561414 70250 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I suspect it's a different relationship for the channels I was thinking of, where abuse of power for jokes was quite common and people were promoted based on time spent / familiarity with the mods rather than skill at moderation
< 1739561466 960818 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :often when things got onto undesirable topics it would be the unpowered users who would effectively moderate it by changing the subject, because the many ops and half-ops weren't doing anything
< 1739561501 799934 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there was a time when someone kicked me as a joke, and I got my revenge by not rejoining for 2-3 days (even though I strongly suggested it was intended as a joke rather than a punishment)
< 1739561654 605252 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Same theory. The idea is that the power exists because of the idea that the responsibility must exist and be delegated. In this case, because of the idea that chat spaces should exist and not be subject to certain sorts of heckling or dictatorship.
< 1739561758 516389 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :early Usenet is an interesting comparison, being basically unmoderated but with users able to (and effectively encouraged to) set up very comprehensive ignore lists
< 1739561769 19018 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it didn't last, although it lasted for quite a while
< 1739561964 301537 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. The game theory on top of power dynamics is non-trivial, and I think that that's a lot of what people focus on when they talk about power.
< 1739562069 754732 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also what's known as The Reputation Problem: any sort of connection between karma and privileges, including e.g. allowing open anonymous registration or metamoderation, will structure the resulting social dynamics. HN is awful partially because they let anybody come in and spout bullshit.
< 1739562091 898012 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Compare e.g. Slashdot or Lobsters, which use metamoderation and invite trees respectively to establish reputation amongst peers.
< 1739562136 225887 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Of course, one could argue that this Reputation is merely an instance of the Revelation Principle, and thus part of the non-trivial game theory. I think it's more of a meta-observation, something about how the structures interact.
< 1739562390 946739 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :alrite I took another stab at it https://github.com/memesmith0/mcr4/blob/main/README.md
< 1739562400 516909 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :have not tested this code
< 1739564902 503900 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :he he he mcr4 is wurking again
< 1739564916 32085 :chomwitt_alt!~alex@2a02:587:7a13:5400:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1739564928 391677 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have found it is better to give the user the options to their commands | sh >&2 than to leave them with nothing
< 1739565179 635059 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is preferable to > into &2 than to rely on eval
< 1739565843 341837 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo "Rumor is that it could have been as simple as using Firefox on Linux" => unlikely because I use Discord from Firefox on linux (and also from Firefox from Windows)
< 1739565882 722831 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't like Discord's TOS, but it's bad in a particularly innovative way that I haven't seen in other online services' conditions
< 1739565935 503622 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :specifically it requires that all bot connections use open source software as the bot
< 1739566011 370509 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think they're in a friendly competition with twitch on who can put the weirdest conditions into their TOS
< 1739566214 515223 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: a requirement for bots to be open source is weird, but not nearly as weird as Twitch's TOS
< 1739566256 940336 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, but I think Twitch's TOS became more weird in the last few years, so it may have been less weird back when Discord started
< 1739566283 218017 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but yes, Twitch is probably winning right now
> 1739566285 972061 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Anthonykozar/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151968&oldid=151948 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (+54) 10Add  class="wikitable" to the tables.
< 1739566525 234588 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm vaguely reminded of the US's requirement that certain types of cryptographic code require substantial paperwork to release, unless it's licensed public domain in which case the paperwork isn't needed
< 1739566587 794870 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am wondering if the requirement was intended to be "source available" rather than "public domain" (which would make some amount of sense given the apparent reasoning behind the paperwork) but they used the wrong terms
< 1739566615 474884 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :still, public domain code usually is source-available (and even open source) in practice even though it logically doesn't have to be
< 1739566622 743448 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's because the export restrictions don't override First Amendment right to speech. See DJB v USA.
< 1739566655 854849 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, I hadn't considered that at all, basically because there isn't an obvious connection in my mind between public domain and free speech
< 1739566656 796184 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ITAR paperwork still applies to corporations, particularly those with military contracts.
< 1739566726 390273 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's definitely USA-specific, but see also Zimmerman's publishing of source code in a book to fight against Canadian restrictions.
< 1739566804 649005 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, whoops, that's "Zimmermann", and that was also against the USA.
> 1739569061 588263 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151969&oldid=151943 5* 03Buckets 5* (+9) 10
> 1739569077 599871 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151970&oldid=151878 5* 03Buckets 5* (+8) 10
> 1739569092 324008 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151971 5* 03Buckets 5* (+744) 10Created page with " (Pronounced Plus-Minus) is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2024. {| class="wikitable" |+ Caption text |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | m || Set a group of Plus or Minus with The integer n. |- | n || Set a group of Minus o
> 1739569166 69338 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151972&oldid=151965 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+345) 10/* WoUlD yOu MiNd If I tHoUgHt Of YoUr "BRING BACK THE OLD SANDBOX" As An ExAmPlE pRoGrAm? */
< 1739569184 70084 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs ::;mcr4_(){ (v(){ printf "%s" "$1"|awk "$2"||exit;};c="$2";f="$3";while read -r l;do j="$(v "$l" '$1')";if [ "$j" = "mcr4_f" ];then read -r l;f="$f$l";elif [ "$j" = "mcr4_c" ];then read -r l;c="$c$l";else v "$l" "$f{l=\$0}END{$c printf \"%s\\n\",l}";fi;done;)};mcr4(){ (if [ "$1" = "sh" ];then mcr4_ "$@"|sh>&2;else mcr4_ "$@";fi;)};:
< 1739569208 4284 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :lets play eye spy. can you spy >&2
< 1739572922 546910 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1739573804 121712 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151973&oldid=151970 5* 03Buckets 5* (+42) 10
> 1739573810 896465 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151974&oldid=151969 5* 03Buckets 5* (+43) 10
> 1739573822 1525 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Minitable14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151975 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1749) 10Created page with ": ''The title of this article is not correct because of technical limitations. The correct title is actually  {| class="wikitable" |}.'' {| class="wikitable" |} is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2022. (Rings are the size of 6l cells pe
< 1739574304 466905 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :mcr4(){ (c="$1";f="$2";while read -r l;do if [ "~" = "$l" ];then read -r l;c="$c$l";read -r l;f="$f$l";else printf "%s" "$l"|awk "$f{l=\$0}END{$c print l}"||exit;fi;done;)};
< 1739574317 370901 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :mcr4sh(){ mcr4|sh>&2;};
< 1739575470 311802 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1739576029 707154 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: https://www.amd.com/en/products/processors/desktops/ryzen/9000-series/amd-ryzen-9-9950x.html specs for an AMD processor that is already on the market and it claims to support AVX512 instructions, but I'm not sure I can completely trust that page because I think it's poisoned by marketing, also it claims 1280 KB of L1 cache which is very suspicious, they probably summed the sizes of multiple 
< 1739576035 715564 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :types of caches through each processor core
< 1739576059 337697 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also the instruction set extensions are listed in alphabetic order
< 1739576082 432523 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am still guessing it has at least some AVX512 support, but I should look elsewhere than that page
< 1739576178 302699 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: AMD has been adding together the size of L1c and L1d for ages – so it's probably the total L1c and L1d across all cores
< 1739576212 578327 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which would make sense for a "quantity of cache" measurement, even though size of cache is what you actually care about usually
< 1739576232 827426 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(if you are running two unrelated programs simultaneously, having a separate L1 for each of them is useful, so cache quantity is not entirely useless as a measure)
< 1739576286 611968 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, it's like saying I have 9 meters of heights of stepladders total in this workshop. doesn't help if I want to reach a four meter high ceiling.
< 1739576397 339421 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder if they're adding TLB cache in it too
< 1739576527 564977 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is that distinct from the TLB itself?
< 1739576568 10434 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but in any case I don't think the TLB counts as L1 cache
< 1739576607 96761 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, I see – TLBs can have multiple levels, so the first level of a TLB can be considered a "level 1 cache" in a sense
< 1739576695 152611 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :um, I don't know if it has any level other than level 1
< 1739576707 857837 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION reflects on how bizarre a name "transaction lookaside buffer" is

< 1739576725 678068 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, I used to call it page table cache but people kept telling me it's called TLB
< 1739576802 219214 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder if it has a similar history to the car/cdr names in Lisp
< 1739576835 807555 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I might use "cdr" in a language I'm designing to avoid the ambiguity of "tail" (which could reasonably be "last element" or "all but the first element")
< 1739576891 708179 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the advantage of this sort of coined word (which is effectively a nonsense word even though it has an etymology) is that it's unlikely to be associated with meanings other than the meaning it was coined with
< 1739576943 96844 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that works for "cdr" but not for "car"
< 1739576985 451023 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes – I probably wouldn't use "car" to pair with it
< 1739577012 971994 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :other possible naming conventions are first,last,butfirst,butlast (I don't recall where I've seen those) or head,tail,behead,curtail (from J)
< 1739577042 168952 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do like behead/curtail although they sound a bit like mutating operations
< 1739577062 679383 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is likely OK if your language is pure, there's no way to be misunderstood there
< 1739577476 897473 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If it's all added together then it sounds like 8KiB of bookkeeping and 32KiB of L1 per processing core, which sounds physically plausible.
< 1739577581 455022 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1739580646 139474 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1739582633 30530 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:f126:15c3:35a5:81ac:187c JOIN #esolangs Cale :realname
> 1739583976 692328 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/List of the users that is also in conwaylife.com14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151976&oldid=151898 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+515) 10Undo revision [[Special:Diff/151898|151898]] by [[Special:Contributions/I am islptng|I am islptng]] ([[User talk:I am islptng|talk]])
< 1739584033 387143 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
> 1739584052 353964 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151977 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+636) 10Created page with "Please help contribute to [[User:I am islptng/List of the users that is also in conwaylife.com]] Thanks! ~~~~"
> 1739586565 451602 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/PSTF Again Undici14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151978 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+6093) 10Created page with "1. [[Translated ZhongWen/Mihai Again Twelve|]]Special:Contributions/PrySigneToFry|Your system is corrupted, it can't be tL$D3h$&% ?' L$H3h(*) ?+ L$L3h,.- ?/ L$P3h021 ?3 ?6$T3h45 ?7 ?:$X3h89
> 1739586677 172119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/Mihai Again Twelve14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151979&oldid=151936 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+292) 10
> 1739586895 843380 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151980&oldid=151847 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+187) 10
> 1739589508 876986 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/List of the users that is also in conwaylife.com14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151981&oldid=151976 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-24) 10
> 1739589553 863274 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/List of the users that is also in conwaylife.com14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151982&oldid=151981 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+81) 10
> 1739589631 217233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/List of the users that is also in conwaylife.com14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151983&oldid=151982 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+55) 10
> 1739589758 621664 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/List of the users that is also in conwaylife.com14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151984&oldid=151983 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+3) 10Unicode arrows
> 1739589892 688311 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151985&oldid=151919 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+129) 10
> 1739589918 739911 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151986&oldid=151985 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+22) 10
> 1739590430 893926 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151987&oldid=151986 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-28) 10
> 1739590595 850583 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151988&oldid=151964 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10
> 1739590916 270815 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/User chart14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=151989 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+47) 10Created page with "A chart of users accounts on other websites."
> 1739591075 666063 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151990&oldid=151988 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+50) 10
> 1739591085 613364 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/User chart14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151991&oldid=151989 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+25) 10
> 1739591091 189290 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/User chart14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151992&oldid=151991 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1) 10
> 1739591928 754790 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151993&oldid=151866 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (-587) 10Simplified instruction set
> 1739595003 854972 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nya~*kwrgsfish+-HQ9`:'"rbtAzxdi814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151994&oldid=151933 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+48) 10
> 1739596463 662452 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151995&oldid=151987 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+463) 10reformat
> 1739596840 505020 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151996&oldid=151925 5* 03H33T33 5* (+34) 10
> 1739599862 507597 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ToArrowScript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151997&oldid=151928 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+0) 10/* Syntax of TAS */
> 1739600710 917268 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StormLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151998&oldid=151947 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+706) 10
> 1739600873 117888 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/StormLang discussion14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=151999&oldid=151816 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+887) 10
< 1739601935 257065 :chomwitt_alt!~alex@2a02:587:7a13:5400:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd JOIN #esolangs chomwitt :realname
< 1739604173 37431 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1739607363 122073 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs lisbeths :lisbeths
< 1739607406 509326 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :mcr5(){ (unset f l c;m(){ while read -r l;do if [ "~" = "$l" ];then read -r l;c="$c$l";read -r l;f="$f$l";else echo "$l"|awk "$f{l=\$0}END{$c print l}"||exit;fi;done;};m|m)};
< 1739607411 160803 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :now my macros themselves have macros
< 1739607439 560885 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :we put macros in the macros so you coould macro expand while you macro expand
< 1739607460 690716 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Exciting.
< 1739608622 611859 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :edited it slightly https://github.com/memesmith0/mcr5/blob/main/README.md
> 1739609633 16901 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152000&oldid=151995 5* 0347 5* (+8) 10
> 1739609683 942735 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152001&oldid=152000 5* 0347 5* (+0) 10
< 1739609764 431578 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1739609861 170874 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152002&oldid=152001 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+61) 10I have no miraheze account and one Discord.
> 1739610733 243777 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152003&oldid=152002 5* 0347 5* (-26) 10
> 1739610785 209105 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152004&oldid=152003 5* 0347 5* (+23) 10
> 1739611549 804046 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152005&oldid=152004 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+159) 10
< 1739613023 952466 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1739616660 526 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
> 1739617096 648499 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/PSTF Again Undici14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152006&oldid=151978 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+47) 10
> 1739617409 213177 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152007&oldid=151972 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+959) 10
> 1739617435 40190 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152008&oldid=152007 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (-29) 10
> 1739617483 245214 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152009&oldid=152008 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1) 10
> 1739617530 324952 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152010&oldid=152009 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+70) 10Fixed rotating degree
< 1739617632 706254 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1739617787 133693 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152011&oldid=151519 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+525) 10/* My usage of span rotation */ new section
> 1739617806 45047 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/Mihai Again Chapter 1314]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152012 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+5619) 10Created page with "1. [[Translated ZhongWen/PSTF Again Undici|]]Special:Contributions/PrySigneToFry|Your system is corrupted, it can't be tL$D3h$&% ?' L$H3h(*) ?+ L$L3h,.- ?/ L$P3h021 ?3 ?6$T3h45 ?7 ?:$X3h89 
< 1739619221 421229 :jjrubes!~JJRubes@1.147.14.49 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1739620496 270357 :jjrubes!~JJRubes@1.147.14.49 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1739621363 83166 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StormLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152013&oldid=151998 5* 03None1 5* (+19) 10/* Identifier */
> 1739621820 669266 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Squareroot1262114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152014&oldid=151944 5* 03Squareroot12621 5* (+115) 10
< 1739621849 481784 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1739622261 680827 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://github.com/memesmith0/macros_for_x
> 1739623341 580490 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152015&oldid=152011 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+614) 10
> 1739623361 667516 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152016&oldid=152015 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+1) 10/* My usage of span rotation */
< 1739623475 406184 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1739623542 873374 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is a prototype for something that adds macros to nearly every programming language that exists https://github.com/memesmith0/macros_for_x
> 1739623545 964756 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152017&oldid=152005 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+131) 10
< 1739623574 329291 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :nearly every langauge on the esolangs wiki can be made to have syntax macros
< 1739623581 773039 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :12 years!
< 1739623636 916381 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :this does something similarly to what nixpkgs does but instead of doing it to packages it does it to programming languages 
< 1739623671 296345 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :now you can truly in the same file start writing some c++ and type one line and then begin writing code in python then type another line and write some code in brainfuck
< 1739623736 369799 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :with this technology there can be an executable that makes no distinction between programming languages that is langauge agnostic
< 1739623863 837270 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can have a program that mixes code from this https://esolangs.org/wiki/Iris and this https://esolangs.org/wiki/Puzzlang although it may require a little tweaking
< 1739623898 3676 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can have a source file with this https://esolangs.org/wiki/Right_bracket and this https://esolangs.org/wiki/Itflabtijtslwi
< 1739624017 43697 :dawids!~dawids@51.37.249.150 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1739624022 177697 :dawids!~dawids@51.37.249.150 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1739624043 571530 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152018&oldid=152017 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10
> 1739624169 326616 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152019&oldid=151990 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+56) 10
> 1739624225 359145 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/My esolang ideas14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152020 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+139) 10Created page with "Here is where hotcrystal0 dumps his esolang ideas.  An esolang called Scratch-unfriendly where every keyword is in Scratchs filter"
> 1739624233 223658 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/My esolang ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152021&oldid=152020 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+2) 10
> 1739624270 814858 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152022&oldid=151963 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+82) 10
> 1739624284 229980 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152023&oldid=152022 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10
> 1739624303 297965 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152024&oldid=152023 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1) 10
> 1739626271 133511 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152025&oldid=152016 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+537) 10
> 1739626303 461223 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152026&oldid=152025 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (-1) 10Fixed rotating degree
> 1739627161 297402 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152027&oldid=152026 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+1559) 10
< 1739627304 923140 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1739627337 485291 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 NICK :callforjudgement
< 1739627345 175070 :callforjudgement!~ais523@user/ais523 NICK :ais523
< 1739627521 29759 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :nwo I am working on decoupling mcr from awk https://github.com/memesmith0/mcr6/blob/main/README.md
< 1739627531 168344 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am trying to make it so that the macros can be written in any language
> 1739628042 841045 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152028&oldid=152027 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+492) 10/* My usage of span rotation */
> 1739628508 264944 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152029&oldid=152028 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-1731) 10/* My usage of span rotation */
< 1739628844 133160 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1739629168 944085 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
> 1739629490 988987 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152030&oldid=152024 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+99) 10
> 1739629530 126899 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152031&oldid=152030 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+109) 10
> 1739629579 686320 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152032&oldid=152031 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+53) 10
> 1739629587 989727 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152033&oldid=152032 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1) 10
> 1739629597 950522 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152034&oldid=152033 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+11) 10
> 1739629609 974988 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152035&oldid=152034 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-1) 10
> 1739629618 994150 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152036&oldid=152035 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1) 10
> 1739633450 826119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07+-14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152037&oldid=151243 5* 03Compiler12o 5* (-1) 10/* Interpreters */
> 1739633721 401878 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07+-14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152038&oldid=152037 5* 03Compiler12o 5* (+1117) 10/* +-=*/@%#()< */
> 1739633951 465036 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07+-14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152039&oldid=152038 5* 03Compiler12o 5* (+173) 10/* +-=*/@%#() 1739634068 234790 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07+-14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152040&oldid=152039 5* 03Compiler12o 5* (-1) 10/* +-=*/@%#() 1739634085 368221 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07+-14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152041&oldid=152040 5* 03Compiler12o 5* (+0) 10/* +-=*/@%#() 1739638834 413599 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152042&oldid=152018 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-69) 10
< 1739641768 189879 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :question. suppose I have an esoteric language that I implement by compiling to C. the goal here is that the source translates to C in a somewhat transparent way, so you can read the C code to understand the rules of the language or to debug the compiler. also you can link multiple source files from the language, and even C libraries as long as you prepare a C interface that can be accessed from the 
< 1739641774 185861 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolang. 
< 1739641883 48236 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my question is, what interface should I give to the esolang to C compiler to make both the simple case easy, where you're just compiling an esolang program to an executable with the default libraries, and the hard case, where you just want the C code and then you want to invoke the C compiler and linker with custom settings?
< 1739642086 862125 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm maybe look at https://manpages.org/ick for inspiration?
< 1739642162 169030 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also I'll need both a standard library for the esolang that you'll have to link to, and a header file that the translated C file will include.
< 1739642173 575340 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I'll look at that
< 1739642408 953808 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: C-INTERCAL's approach is to do INTERCAL-to-C-to-executable by default but to have a command-line argument to stop after generating the C
< 1739642437 473158 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and IIRC it drops a compile-command header (which is an Emacs modeline, because why not?) that specifies how to compile the resulting C file
< 1739642463 838134 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: ooh, C-INTERCAL has made it to manpages.org?
< 1739642500 870554 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :evidently
< 1739642996 971520 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a compile header directly into the C file? interesting, I was thinking of writing a makefile include
< 1739643125 971463 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is about that text columns esolang that I was talking about recently, and I think I should make it statically typable
< 1739643248 811441 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I probably won't take this past toy stage so the whole complication is probably unnecessary, but I still want to figure out how it should work
< 1739643370 182532 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd start with `< file.esolang my-compiler > file.c && gcc file.c` and basically never move past that point.
< 1739643371 586521 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like I may want different modes of array index safety: one that strictly checks that all array accesses are in bounds, which helps me prove that a program that I write in the esolang doesn't have a problem with that and so should work portably with hypothetical other implementations of the esolang, but potentially also a non-checking version to prove that you can write somewhat efficient code in this 
< 1739643377 766815 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolang. I probably don't need to implement the latter, because it's still just a toy, but I want to know that it's implementable.
< 1739643398 160936 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I *would* write a Makefile if the command chaining gets out of hand for some reason)
< 1739643425 23455 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(there could be an intermediate safety, where out of bounds array accesses can't break out of memory safety, but I don't prove that they're valid in the language)
< 1739643439 565405 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I also never ship anything so...
< 1739643528 686955 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1739643533 583595 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, me neither
< 1739643564 409335 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and there are still parts that I have to think about how this esolang should be defined
< 1739644829 67393 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1739644938 457723 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1739644973 967015 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1739645021 648773 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1739645786 610580 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1739645852 71282 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :For putting the compile command header, what I had done is to put the commands into a #if 0 block, because the C compiler will skip them but the command shell treats "#if 0" as a comment so it is that command which is skipped instead.
< 1739647516 166601 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: How would your approach apply to languages whose programs aren't written as documents?
< 1739647616 773776 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I dont know
< 1739647618 211716 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The common esolangs examples are The Waterfall Model, whose programs are matrices, and But Is It Art?, whose programs are tiles. Other examples include Wang tiles or Post correspondence tiles, FRACTRAN whose programs are sequences of rational numbers, and Cammy whose programs are algebraic expressions.
< 1739647636 905913 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the program would ahve to be representable as a series of bits
< 1739647653 949591 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :or the logic of the program would ahve to be representable as a series of bits
< 1739647671 707240 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, that's always possible. But it would mean that the represented program is encapsulated.
< 1739647709 361745 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Taking your example: if some lines of a document are C++, some are Python, and some are Brainfuck, then what memory model is used to describe the resulting program's behavior?
< 1739647906 397719 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :thats up to the user thats not my job
< 1739647970 837588 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm vaguely reminded of how some very early shell apparently implemented goto as a separate executable; I'm not entirely sure how it worked
< 1739648011 897410 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the most sensible option would be along the lines of exec'ing the shell starting at a particular line, but I'm hoping it was weirder
< 1739648079 91082 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is a hard thing to search for
< 1739648094 67149 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: Out of curiosity, what do you think of quasiquotation? Have you seen languages that offer programmable quasiquoters?
< 1739648238 872852 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i havent
< 1739649148 73644 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
> 1739650124 318100 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Chops14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152043&oldid=150635 5* 03Buckets 5* (+43) 10
> 1739651867 665939 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sleep.14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152044&oldid=151568 5* 03Buckets 5* (+375) 10
< 1739652447 263333 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :seem to be nearly done with mcr7 https://github.com/memesmith0/mcr7_repl/
< 1739652476 150130 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the main difference between mcr7 and mcr6 is that mcr6 has a macro system in awk whereas mcr7 intends to let you pick your own macro system
< 1739652531 128687 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :or sorry mcr5 is based in awk mcr6 allows you to choose your own macro system and mcr7 allows you to reprogram the macro system from mcr6 with more macros
> 1739652750 874161 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152045&oldid=152042 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+67) 10
< 1739652772 645247 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :mcr6 has made me realize a bottleneck in my design which is that it has to send the entire list of macros into the macro interpreter for every single line. and it would be more efficient for the macro system to be able to interpret mcr6 macros as part of its program
< 1739653438 24566 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1739653457 962194 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
> 1739653840 646688 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152046&oldid=152010 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+384) 10
< 1739654187 218418 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's starting to look a lot like m4. Maybe it's a case of convergent evolution.
> 1739654250 967075 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kcidea14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152047&oldid=137688 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+77) 10
< 1739654693 406215 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is a much smaller system than m4
< 1739654697 106755 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://github.com/memesmith0/mcr10
< 1739654707 792971 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I dont think I can take the mcr program any further than this
< 1739655435 533155 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can make my own awk version of it which is what I prefer, but that is all
> 1739657424 951339 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[076A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152048&oldid=151511 5* 03Buckets 5* (+0) 10
> 1739657518 910849 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Anthonykozar/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152049&oldid=151968 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (-35) 10Testing if literal greater-than and less-than signs and/or their HTML entities work.
< 1739657533 170136 :chomwitt_alt!~alex@2a02:587:7a13:5400:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
> 1739657686 111106 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ASCII Code14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152050 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+3550) 10Created page with "'''ASCII Code''' is a esolang made by Mihai Popa. The goal is to fit a program in a ASCII square or rectangle.  == Command list == {| class="wikitable" |+ Command list |- ! Command !! Meaning |- | s || Sets the current variable. Variable can be any of the 26 letters
> 1739657859 959554 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Anthonykozar/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152051&oldid=152049 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (+17) 10Fix code formatting
> 1739657889 200309 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:MihaiEso14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152052&oldid=151946 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+37) 10/* List of my esolangs */
> 1739657942 179852 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152053&oldid=151974 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+17) 10
< 1739660183 449985 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina JOIN #esolangs Lykaina :Lykaina
< 1739661431 688010 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://github.com/memesmith0/mcr11 now this is podracing
< 1739665577 148783 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://github.com/memesmith0/mcr13 this is alot closer to what the final product should look like
< 1739668482 296637 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1739673883 587911 :nitrix!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix JOIN #esolangs nitrix :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1739674139 999336 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152054&oldid=152045 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+58) 10
> 1739674416 878423 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152055&oldid=152029 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+559) 10
> 1739674549 937257 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152056&oldid=152053 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+16) 10/* S */
> 1739674608 815186 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StormLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152057&oldid=152013 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+25) 10
< 1739675102 455532 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1739675132 62381 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 JOIN #esolangs op_4 :op_4
< 1739675589 214912 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :mmcr(){ (a(){ unset f c;while read -r i;do if [ "$i" = m ] ;then read -r i;c="$c$i";read -r i;f="$f$i";else echo "$i"|awk "$f{o=\$0;$c print o}"||exit;fi;done;};a|a|sh>&2)};#https://github.com/memesmith0/mmcr
< 1739675697 982103 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1739677803 966438 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sometimes I think it would be nice if Turing-style machines had explicit stuckness.
< 1739677829 988189 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right now I'm dreaming of self-applying Brainfuck and it's unfortunate that sometimes the best way to signal an error in the input is by provably never halting.
< 1739678033 48810 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca JOIN #esolangs zzo38 :zzo38
< 1739678241 189518 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1739679968 539756 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :(a(){ f="";c="";while read -r i;do if [ "$i" = m ] ;then read -r i;c="$c$i";read -r i;f="$f$i";else echo "$i"|awk "$f{o=\$0;$c print o}";fi;done;};a|a)
< 1739680063 574540 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have a very powerful subset of lambda calculus that always halts
< 1739680514 638317 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1739680803 837937 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :(a(){ f="";c="";while read -r i;do if [ "$i" = m ] ;then read -r i;c="$c$i";read -r i;f="$f$i";else echo "$i"|awk "$f{o=\$0;$c print o}";fi;done;};a|a)
< 1739680830 797808 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :thats the money shot
> 1739680987 906926 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152058&oldid=152054 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+0) 10lowercase
< 1739682775 285388 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: Good times. Lambda calculus is very relevant to many folks here; do you have a description of your subset?
< 1739683920 282003 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1739683929 422797 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ibis combinator
< 1739683933 476616 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :kestrel combinator
< 1739683940 855914 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :kite combinator
< 1739683946 264346 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :viero combinator
< 1739683953 210505 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :is_end_of_list combinator
< 1739684005 528642 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :these should always halt when applied to each other in correct sequences
< 1739684080 279268 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://github.com/memesmith0/mcr14
< 1739684097 753361 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have successfully decoupled awk as the only macro system for mcr5
< 1739684107 551601 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so now you can use any system that you want for macros
< 1739685307 561641 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that that combinator basis is equivalent in power to BCKI, maybe more usefully phrased as BCI+K. It's an affine lambda calculus.
< 1739685632 218543 :jjrubes!~JJRubes@1.147.14.49 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
> 1739686174 611223 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07D14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152059&oldid=128743 5* 03BestCoder 5* (+14) 10
< 1739687842 894119 :nitrix!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1739688034 537818 :nitrix!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix JOIN #esolangs nitrix :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1739689418 881206 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fucktion14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152060 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+968) 10Created page with "'''Fucktion''' is an esolang created by islptng. == Intro == We have only parenthesis. Other characters are considered as comments.
 Each program are computed by calling function f(). Arguments are passed without punctuation or spaces.
 Example:  (()(())(()()
< 1739689509 342307 :jjrubes!~JJRubes@1.147.14.49 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1739689661 198026 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152061&oldid=152046 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+207) 10/* WoUlD yOu MiNd If I tHoUgHt Of YoUr "BRING BACK THE OLD SANDBOX" As An ExAmPlE pRoGrAm? */
> 1739689823 473862 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fucktion14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152062&oldid=152060 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+341) 10
> 1739691085 145684 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EsoInterpreters14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152063&oldid=151470 5* 03WinslowJosiah 5* (+68) 10Add Deadfish interpreter in Bespoke
< 1739692404 381065 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :heh I know some special tricks that are much nicer than BCKL as you shall see in the coming weeks with fastlisp
< 1739692805 201445 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :anymcr(){ if [ "$2" = "" ] ;then sh -c "$1"|sh -c "$1";else sh -c "$1"|sh -c "$1"|sh -c "$2">&2; fi;};mcr14(){ (a="(unset c f;while read -r i;do if [ \"\$i\" = m ] ;then read -r i;c=\"\$c\$i\";read -r i;f=\"\$f\$i\";else echo \"\$i\"|awk \"\$f{o=\\\$0;\$c print o}\";fi;done;)";if [ "$2" = "" ] ;then if  [ "$1" = "" ] ;then anymcr "$a"; else anymcr "$1"; fi; elif [ "$1" = "" ] ; then anymcr "$a" "$2"; else anymcr "$1" "$2"; 
< 1739692805 232035 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :fi;)};mcr14sh(){ mcr14 "" "sh";};
< 1739692838 744702 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think its pretty finished I can't fathom anything else I'd want to do with it
< 1739692865 87635 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :perhaps I could change anymcr to reflect systems that do not pipe into themselves
< 1739692875 224430 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :but other than that there's not much else I can do
> 1739694096 990702 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152064&oldid=152055 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+1525) 10
> 1739696339 827111 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152065&oldid=152064 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-1538) 10/* My usage of span rotation */  oh no you dont!
< 1739697018 522776 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Next up, porting to execline~
< 1739698595 60370 :jjrubes!~JJRubes@1.147.14.49 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1739699165 240994 :jjrubes!~JJRubes@1.147.14.49 QUIT :Quit: Leaving
> 1739702034 872819 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152066&oldid=152061 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+916) 10
> 1739702132 242090 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152067&oldid=152066 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+0) 10Fixed time
< 1739702488 316400 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :okay Ive added some very basic documentation on the mcr14 page
< 1739702579 979049 :chomwitt_alt!~alex@2a02:587:7a13:5400:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd JOIN #esolangs chomwitt :realname
< 1739704110 234929 :coat!~coat@user/coat PRIVMSG #esolangs :is there any online PDF that will give me a formal introduction to lambda calculus?
< 1739704171 434656 :coat!~coat@user/coat PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm looking for something more academic than practical. I mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_calculus seems good. It uses the academic terms like "abstraction", "application", etc. that's how I want to learn it. but some articles I found online mixes too much programming terminology making the articles difficult to read.
< 1739704195 857140 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the backus naur form for lambda calculus is real simple
< 1739704215 11986 :coat!~coat@user/coat PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: thx. any links you could point me to?
< 1739704217 716013 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the wikipedia page on the church encoding is really good
< 1739704224 904236 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the wikipedia page for lambda calculus
< 1739704242 672458 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :you might also want to look up scotts encoding and de brujins indices
< 1739704264 81060 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you /join #lambdacalculus I put a bunch of materials about lambda calculus in the topic
< 1739704351 538658 :coat!~coat@user/coat PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: great. didn't know it existed. let me joint hat.
< 1739704418 568540 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :in have this lambda tattoo https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/qHkz5Nss/1000000994.jpg
< 1739705752 658970 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1739706123 788406 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/List of the users that is also in conwaylife.com14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152068&oldid=151984 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+92) 10
> 1739706226 775106 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152069&oldid=152058 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+42) 10
< 1739706491 786868 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
> 1739707294 956185 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152070&oldid=152069 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+9) 10
< 1739709887 192081 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1739710058 364513 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Krolkrol14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152071 5* 03Krolkrol 5* (+20) 10Created page with "This is my user page"
> 1739710166 49882 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07No.14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152072&oldid=135544 5* 03Krolkrol 5* (+108) 10
> 1739710601 464030 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152073&oldid=152070 5* 03Gilbert189 5* (+159) 10
< 1739711091 17123 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :new base for mcr (c="";while read -r i;do if [ "$i" = m ] ;then read -r i;c="$c$i";else echo "$i"|sh -c "read -r o;$c echo \"\$o\""||exit;fi;done)
< 1739711101 808718 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can remove ||exit error handling for more character space
< 1739712066 253553 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1739713729 586913 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kolakoski sequence14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152074&oldid=150786 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+535) 10/* Tag system */
< 1739713787 931954 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :can i get help
< 1739713791 962092 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :my brainfuck interpreter is slow
< 1739713799 462225 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://gist.github.com/izabera/d980ad66fca9ca78987a51519f2279b3
< 1739713820 394119 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://asciinema.org/a/rcwlxfOh1CSaQ1ADlue1F2g4K 
< 1739713839 72199 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :the long pauses are clone returning eagain over and over and over
< 1739713845 776106 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :and i can't tell if i'm doing things wrong
< 1739713943 432598 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know what you expected
< 1739713957 476386 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :i mean the parent dies immediately every time
< 1739713962 361643 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :so i'm not running out of pids
< 1739713971 774034 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, i expected zero pauses
< 1739713999 62744 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but they'll still become zombies that have to be reaped?
< 1739714003 901688 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :i don't know
< 1739714008 147583 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :do they
< 1739714017 738248 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :i'm using clone with 0 in the lowest byte
< 1739714021 913690 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :of the first arg
< 1739714038 104215 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :i was hoping this would make them not zombied
> 1739714039 603813 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152075&oldid=152065 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+1539) 10Undo revision [[Special:Diff/152065|152065]] by [[Special:Contributions/Ractangle|Ractangle]] ([[User talk:Ractangle|talk]])
< 1739714044 185754 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :is that dumb
< 1739714049 337994 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :is that not how it works
< 1739714061 8989 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :isabella: (c="";while read -r i;do if [ "$i" = m ] ;then read -r i;c="$c$i";else echo "$i"|sh -c "read -r o;$c echo \"\$o\""||exit;fi;done)
< 1739714083 157768 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :(c="";while read -r i;do if [ "$i" = m ] ;then read -r i;c="$c$i";else echo "$i"|sh -c "read -r o;$c echo \"\$o\""||exit;fi;done) | (c="";while read -r i;do if [ "$i" = m ] ;then read -r i;c="$c$i";else echo "$i"|sh -c "read -r o;$c echo \"\$o\""||exit;fi;done)
< 1739714086 710407 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :can you not
< 1739714093 748644 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :can I not what
< 1739714096 743700 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :that
< 1739714101 232701 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :can you be more specific
< 1739714113 696222 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :do you want me not to speak to you?
< 1739714123 353855 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :you keep vomiting your line noise onto me in every channel we share
< 1739714128 874381 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :like
< 1739714133 680336 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :no offence but please don't
< 1739714140 340258 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :alot of people share alot of channels it isnt something personal
< 1739714205 443935 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :only this one was directed at you 5:54 AM
< 1739714216 449213 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :yep so maybe don't
< 1739714230 562821 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah so you are saying you dont want me to ping you. thats fine I will just /ignore you
< 1739714268 203262 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :isabella: Hmm I don't know what you mean by "0 in the lowest byte"
< 1739714294 581986 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :from my understading, the syscall takes a signal in the lowest byte of the first argument
< 1739714305 702448 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :and that signal is delivered to the parent when the child dies
< 1739714311 892772 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :but if it's 0, no signal is delivered
< 1739714315 892207 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :does that auto reap?
< 1739714349 848490 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :i don't know, can i make it autoreaped?
< 1739714368 970438 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :isabella: the zombies record exit codes that can be queried by the parent (or parent of parent if the parent dies, etc)
< 1739714391 517088 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a pretty integral part of posix process semantics
< 1739714412 307655 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said I'm not even sure whether that causes your delays
< 1739714435 729 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :Can I not avoid that at all
< 1739714442 575219 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think you can
< 1739714452 96165 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you *could* stop forking without abandon of course
< 1739714591 837680 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :My first version was simpler but slower
< 1739714600 458659 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :Because no clone_vm
< 1739714623 604496 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's probably a way to do clone_vm without writing it in asm 
< 1739714729 406645 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :to my mind the thing you're running into is that creating processes is expensive
< 1739714732 410984 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION shrugs

< 1739714742 9683 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah no I get that
< 1739714750 320913 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :I just want to get rid of the pauses 
< 1739714770 306552 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Heck maybe it runs out of zeroed pages and refilling those is why it pauses.
< 1739714789 364402 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :Clone_vm
< 1739714793 9655 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :No new pages
< 1739714823 427410 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah
< 1739714915 428125 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean, the way you avoid having to reap processes is by using threads.
< 1739714946 426883 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :This was meant to be annoying to stop once it's running
< 1739714964 346953 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION shrugs

< 1739715411 29355 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :A friend tried it on openrc and it doesn't pause 
< 1739715430 45094 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :So maybe my systemd is slow at reaping
> 1739715874 592472 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152076&oldid=152075 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-1539) 10no
> 1739716106 776016 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152077&oldid=152067 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+332) 10/* WoUlD yOu MiNd If I tHoUgHt Of YoUr "BRING BACK THE OLD SANDBOX" As An ExAmPlE pRoGrAm? */
> 1739716146 531235 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152078&oldid=150936 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+0) 10
> 1739717437 870586 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152079&oldid=152073 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+14) 10
< 1739717978 472416 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1739718001 549150 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1739718484 976141 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
> 1739718833 606635 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dolfins grace14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152080&oldid=140211 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (-1) 10/* finnobachi */
> 1739718895 768283 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfih14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152081&oldid=138461 5* 03Krolkrol 5* (+232) 10
< 1739720557 279871 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1739722844 227954 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1739722971 948719 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1739723027 472600 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :so i fixed the stalls
< 1739727023 3074 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :isabella: did you figure out a cause? or did you just tweak things until they went away?
< 1739727209 628134 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's systemd being slow at the one thing an init is required to
< 1739727217 351321 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :*do
< 1739727238 662264 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :okay
< 1739727264 128036 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's a bit faster too 
< 1739727273 927323 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :99 bottles of beer in 7s
< 1739727368 34381 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also tried some alternative syscalls to measure a baseline
< 1739727403 543630 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sched_yield is like 60x faster
< 1739727600 834604 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1739729579 738376 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1739729765 35326 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SCOOP14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152082 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (+35465) 10Draft description of new language SCOOP (Single-Character Object-Oriented Programming).
< 1739730036 348526 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1739730050 765669 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Scoop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152083&oldid=151874 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (+32) 10Add Distinguish/Confusion template
> 1739730088 337890 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SCOOP14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152084&oldid=152082 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (+33) 10Add Distinguish/Confusion template.
> 1739730585 202984 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Astolfotrap312++ 5*  10New user account
> 1739730930 932126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152085&oldid=151885 5* 03Astolfotrap312++ 5* (+67) 10
< 1739731397 384857 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1739731443 465862 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1739731462 332495 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :i think it's not too far from a forkbomb
< 1739731475 345557 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :except it doesn't explode in resource usage
< 1739731479 629160 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1739731495 937286 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :it just keeps running away and doing the bare minimum amount of work on each step
> 1739731624 395171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SCOOP14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152086&oldid=152084 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (+129) 10Add wikitable class to all tables and change table columns called "Name" to "Symbol Name".
< 1739732723 687548 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1739732747 432407 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
> 1739733021 314902 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Community portal14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152087&oldid=151090 5* 03BestCoder 5* (+193) 10/* how to get noticed */ new section
< 1739733928 786062 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
> 1739734166 558012 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SCOOP14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152088&oldid=152086 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (+172) 10Added categories.
> 1739734484 22036 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152089&oldid=152056 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (+59) 10Added SCOOP (Single-Character Object-Oriented Programming)
> 1739734852 873108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Muxutruk 5*  10New user account
< 1739735034 185387 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca JOIN #esolangs zzo38 :zzo38
> 1739735149 341126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152090&oldid=152085 5* 03Muxutruk 5* (+245) 10Introduced myself
> 1739735427 818976 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152091&oldid=151072 5* 03Muxutruk 5* (+97) 10Added my Brainfuck compiler
< 1739735943 633774 :Guest81!~Guest81@2601:243:c900:fae0:44a3:6bf1:6465:6c0d JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Guest81
< 1739735965 738359 :Guest81!~Guest81@2601:243:c900:fae0:44a3:6bf1:6465:6c0d QUIT :Client Quit
< 1739737608 685614 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1739738084 805671 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets/Sandbox14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152092 5* 03Buckets 5* (+7) 10Created page with "Sandbox"
< 1739739637 469694 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :G'Night
< 1739740974 928785 :chomwitt_alt!~alex@2a02:587:7a13:5400:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
> 1739744177 673664 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152093&oldid=151973 5* 03Buckets 5* (+13) 10
> 1739744182 959979 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152094&oldid=152089 5* 03Buckets 5* (+14) 10
> 1739744197 320193 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sundays14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152095 5* 03Buckets 5* (+896) 10Created page with "Sundays is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2020. {| class="wikitable" ! Commands !! Instructions |- | 0 (or 0.) || Create A new variable. |- | 1 || Change the variable to the Newer Created Variable. |- | 2 || Change the variable to the Old
> 1739744281 494692 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sundays14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152096&oldid=152095 5* 03Buckets 5* (+22) 10
> 1739744846 992641 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sleep14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152097&oldid=113348 5* 03Buckets 5* (+41) 10
< 1739744952 391886 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1739744964 107697 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
> 1739745835 844098 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152098&oldid=152092 5* 03Buckets 5* (+27) 10
< 1739748201 938504 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1739749686 419327 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152099&oldid=152076 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+1539) 10This is the Chinese character for "Fun", Not n*zi flag!
< 1739750780 368898 :yewscion_!~yewscion@2601:547:1400:1ab0:b3d9:e178:7811:ae04 JOIN #esolangs yewscion :Claire Rodriguez
< 1739751094 201279 :GregorR!~GregorR@71.19.155.102 QUIT :Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)
< 1739751107 936297 :GregorR!~GregorR@71.19.155.102 JOIN #esolangs GregorR :Gregor Richards
< 1739751447 911873 :GregorR!~GregorR@71.19.155.102 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
> 1739751899 411471 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152100&oldid=152099 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-1138) 10just use the circle character
< 1739751996 31673 :GregorR!~GregorR@71.19.155.102 JOIN #esolangs GregorR :Gregor Richards
> 1739756129 930410 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152101&oldid=152100 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+1138) 10I prefer using my version because some computer can't display that correctly
> 1739756218 366735 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152102&oldid=152101 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+2) 10Avoid
< 1739756983 542196 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1739758253 995918 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1739758655 64497 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-EBD1-74EC-CFBE-4CD2-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
< 1739758821 417417 :molson_!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-F41D-C13C-3E44-1CC-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
> 1739760687 198124 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152103&oldid=151955 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+320) 10
> 1739760822 291192 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152104&oldid=152103 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+82) 10
> 1739763706 370914 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SCOOP14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152105&oldid=152088 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (+23) 10/* History and Design Goals */  Adding design goal "fairly easy to parse".
< 1739763957 724576 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1739768571 561687 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kolakoski sequence14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152106&oldid=152074 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+259) 10/* Post correspondence problem */
< 1739773874 478245 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :One idea I thought of is "base zero" numbers that are stored the power of zero and the multiple. This way, you can make sizeof(x)/sizeof(*x) if x is an array even if sizeof(*x)==0
< 1739777738 506533 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs lisbeths :lisbeths
< 1739777861 577691 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Thinking about Jones-optimal partial evaluators and what it would look like to synthesize a language which makes them easier to write.
< 1739778026 707279 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It seems like most existing research has been analytic. Given e.g. Prolog, how few clauses are required for partial evaluation? But I think we should be synthetic: what modifications to Prolog would reduce the number of clauses?
< 1739778064 978350 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :more than negatieve one?
< 1739778069 317526 :ursa-major!114efe6c39@2a03:6000:1812:100::11f3 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1739778070 489967 :dcreager!a9e780c4d1@2a03:6000:1812:100::136b QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
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< 1739778089 963930 :ManDeJan!3da94070ba@user/mandejan JOIN #esolangs ManDeJan :ManDeJan
< 1739778109 616129 :dcreager!a9e780c4d1@2a03:6000:1812:100::136b JOIN #esolangs dcreager :Douglas Creager
< 1739778124 684461 :ursa-major!114efe6c39@2a03:6000:1812:100::11f3 JOIN #esolangs ursa-major :Bailey Bjornstad
< 1739778163 614877 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: Prolog's known to require three clauses and I don't think we can do better due to the underlying Horn-clause formalism.
< 1739778210 69423 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i would look at other languages that fit the category of database
< 1739778226 981664 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :We don't really care about the number of clauses. We care about the number of different possible forms. Ideally a nice partial-evaluation language only has maybe two or three possible forms.
< 1739778243 206547 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :you mean the number of combinations of clauses?
< 1739778267 162409 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure, although partial evaluation is a single predicate, so we're only counting a single predicate's clauses.
< 1739778283 575089 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.metalevel.at/acomip/ is a decent introduction to how it's done for Prolog.
< 1739778297 719685 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok well prolog is designed specifically for problems like taking a dtabase of things and finding all the combinations of those things
< 1739778453 354061 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It can be useful to think of Prolog as computing a reasonably-programmable search for Herbrand terms over some first-order Horn clauses. (A Herbrand term is like an S-expression, basically.)
< 1739778507 447952 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And we can express Horn clauses as Herbrand terms. This is what enables metacircular evaluators to be small and efficient: code is (efficiently represented as) data.
< 1739778511 525407 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :thats likely true
< 1739778535 547759 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i would look into very small versions of prolog
< 1739778547 50643 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :such as minikanren or some kind of worlds-smallest-prolog
< 1739778670 718197 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The linked article covers pure Prolog. For miniKanren, there's the wrinkle that the (fresh) form needs to introduce names, and those names have to be bound somehow; one option might be alphaKanren, which is miniKanren with nominal logic.
< 1739778753 885619 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION crossposting to #minikanren

< 1739778894 503475 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :do you know about binary lambda calculus?
< 1739778921 783226 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://github.com/iambrj/metaKanren I have found a new avenue of research and guess I will be spending time with this.
< 1739778927 662992 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. Around here, you can call it BLC.
< 1739778960 381232 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: What is BLC? Who has popularized it? What are some uses of BLC?
> 1739779023 913929 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: BLC (Binary Lambda Calculus) is a self-interpreting programming language that uses binary digits to represent lambda calculus expressions. It was popularized by its creator, who has not been explicitly named in the provided text. BLC is used for exploring the fundamental concepts of lambda calculus and for creating small, efficient programs. It's...
> 1739779023 915404 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also a stepping stone for understanding esoteric programming languages like LAST.
< 1739779100 9919 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I prefer to make it a habit of calling it binary lambda calculus. is it not possible to implement minikanren as a very small binary lambda calculus prefix? and would that not be the smallest prolog style database?
< 1739779103 659092 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Y'know, that's 1/3 points. Not a complete failure.
< 1739779118 562317 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: Why did John Tromp design BLC?
> 1739779128 889318 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: John Tromp designed BLC (Basic Language for Computation) to explore the intersection of programming languages and computer architecture. He aimed to create a language that was both simple and powerful, allowing for efficient computation on low-level hardware. BLC's focus on direct hardware manipulation and its minimalist syntax were intended to...
> 1739779128 890563 PRIVMSG #esolangs :push the boundaries of what a programming language could achieve.
< 1739779153 352523 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: I guess that we should take a couple steps back. Are you familiar with Futamura's projections?
< 1739779173 362359 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :no I am not very literate about code in the scholarly sense
< 1739779189 872874 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: u'i as you can see, the bots know nothing! nothing!
< 1739779190 130200 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: is it allowed to shadow a syntactic keyword evaluated by quasiquote, and not
< 1739779250 490807 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: Okay, so. Let's imagine a funky kind of program. Futamura imagined three specific ways to use it, called his "projections". It's very meta but very useful. The study of Futamura's line of research is called *partial evaluation*.
< 1739779281 426639 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I understand what it means to partially evaluate something
< 1739779313 134019 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :These funky programs are called *specializers*. They take two arguments, which we'll think of as an ordinary user-level program and some input for that program, and return another ordinary user-level program with that input hardcoded into it.
< 1739779325 292651 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay, great. So that ^^^ should sound familiar?
< 1739779339 433578 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah that is a kind of a macro expansion
< 1739779364 779336 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :you are interleaving two syntax trees together in a specific way before evaluation
< 1739779389 162549 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. Suppose that we have a function f and input x, and we have their source code, which I'll write [f] and [x]. Then all we're doing is taking [f]([x]) and asking for [f(x)].
< 1739779407 922868 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes thats what you just described
< 1739779440 123336 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Actually, let's be a little more flexible. Let's imagine that f takes two arguments. We're going to turn [f] and [x] into [y: f(x, y)]. We're only going to specialize the first argument.
< 1739779448 517475 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes taht makes sense
< 1739779470 543928 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :When we do that, the result is called the *residual program*. That's why sometimes the literature calls this *residualization*.
< 1739779485 119168 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :in combinators [any_f] [any_x] -> [any_f(any_x)] is just concat
< 1739779506 594484 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :you are saying [y: f(x,y)] is the residual program correct?
< 1739779538 393624 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. Like, the residue will take an argument when it's run on a machine.
< 1739779570 648385 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I dont follow but sure we can refer to those interleaved programs as residual programs and we can refer to the itnerleaving of programs as reisdualization
< 1739779577 742884 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yep! Concatenative languages tend to have a very nice partial-evaluation scheme based on monoids, which is just a generalized way of doing concatenation.
< 1739779597 310253 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :but shouldnt all syntax trees be representable as concatenative programs?
< 1739779680 274343 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, let's look at a useful example. Futamura noticed that if f is an interpreter, say [interp], and x is some source code for an interpreted program, then we get [y: interp(x, y)]. The specializer compiled the interpreter onto the input program!
< 1739779719 882262 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes f can be an interpreter for a language
< 1739779761 221008 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So that's the first Futamura projection. There's no need to write a compiler. Just write an interpreter and a specializer.
< 1739779792 545065 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I understand that collloquially as "there is no need to write compilers just functions and secializers"
< 1739779800 531044 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :what is a sepcializer
< 1739779817 385333 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, there's a magic rule for partial evaluation. The rule is: if the specializer is good, then the residues will be good too. The rule for the first projection: if the interpreter and specializer are good, then the compiler's outputs will be good too.
< 1739779833 84671 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :define good
< 1739779848 382330 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :as in sound and valid
< 1739779870 63283 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, it tends to hold for *any* chosen metric.
< 1739779930 63298 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :what do you mean by it and what do you mean by metric
< 1739779947 687041 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, yeah. If the interpreter and specializer are both correct, then so are the compiler's outputs. But of course the correctness proof does different things from different perspectives; here, the outputs are only correct in that they faithfully do what the user requested.
< 1739780089 969666 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: I guess I should point out that a specializer can be complicated. It could be very simple, yes. But it could also put a lot of effort into optimizing the residue. The traditional example is specializing e.g. Python `lambda x, y: y ** x` with x=3 to `lambda y: x * x * x`.
< 1739780118 240312 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Er, sorry, `lambda y: y * y * y`. It's late here.
< 1739780127 667706 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok so this si about proving a function or compiler is perfect and proving that something called a "specializer" is perfect, and then we can prove that the residue is perfect therefore
< 1739780168 482099 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :since the residue is perfect we can know that the output of evaluating the residue will be perfect
< 1739780187 372699 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's more about not writing a compiler. Like, for the past few years, I've been writing interpreters in a Python-like language, and a toolchain automatically transforms them into JIT compilers. I will hopefully never have to write a single JIT by hand ever again.
< 1739780207 220971 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure we can call them functions_that_are_like_compilers for long
< 1739780249 394516 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The terms *interpreter* and *compiler* are standard here. Another standard term is *compiler compiler*, which is what it says on the tin: feed it a description of a compiler toolchain, and it will generate the actual compiler for you.
< 1739780267 487428 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I still need to know what a specializer is
< 1739780319 32959 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Restating: A specializer is an ordinary user-level program. It takes two arguments, as source code, and applies one to the other. We'll say s is a specializer and [s] is its source code.
< 1739780351 370847 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :s([f], [x]) = [y: f(x, y)]. When f is an interpreter, that's the first projection.
< 1739780351 457714 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah okay so we could say specializer [ f ] [ x] => [ y: f(x) ] correct?
< 1739780376 979830 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok now I understand
< 1739780386 999596 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :let me reread what you wrote now knowing this
< 1739780432 849623 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. But we need that variable s. Because Futamura then asked what happens if we do s([s], [[f]]) = [y: s([f], y)]. (Okay, I'll wait for you to catch up.)
< 1739780555 994618 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so what do we call these neo-compilers taht do not require compilation but can do the same thing
< 1739780563 646395 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think calling them interpreters is confusing
< 1739780590 545246 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Those residues are just called compilers. They aren't special.
< 1739780604 540858 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh so the output of the specializer is the compiler
< 1739780611 978520 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so what is f
< 1739780614 509623 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Since they aren't written by hand, they might not be very readable. The toolchain that I use involves writing out massive tables of unreadable C code.
< 1739780617 296750 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :just some function in the input code?
< 1739780639 76838 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am very comfortable with mssive tables of unreadabel c code
< 1739780642 578558 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :f is an interpreter, usually. It can technically be any sort of data processor; in one case, f was a raytracer.
< 1739780681 814704 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :okay so the output of a specializer is a compiler-like system called a residue that maybe superior to a compiler. and f is an interpreter to some other language
< 1739780688 358062 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and x is an argument to that interpreter
< 1739780716 101390 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So! This construction, s([s], [[f]]), is Futamura's second projection. It behaves like a compiler compiler: its residues take programs [y] as source code and emit [z: f(y, z)] residues, so its residues are compilers.
< 1739780746 884791 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right, one of the big lessons is that a good specializer has all of the guts of a good compiler.
< 1739780775 311476 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes it is a specializer specializer
< 1739780784 541898 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The magic rule for the second projection: if s and f are any good, then the final residues, which are basically compiled executables, will be good too.
< 1739780801 339323 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure
< 1739780820 858463 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It can be! That's the third projection: s([s], [[s]]) = [y: s([s], y)]. It makes compiler-compiler compilers.
< 1739780823 370939 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :its turtles all the way down we can verify that lots of nestedt hings are good
< 1739780851 123938 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :okay yes we can nest specializer infinitely and if the specializer is good and the interpreter is good then we know the output of the residue will be good
< 1739780872 324171 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is useful for proof checking systems
< 1739780877 454382 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And Glück's 2009 theorem shows that iterating this doesn't add any capabilities. Iteration *does* let us incrementally rebuild one specializer with another, and the fact that there are three projections explains why a compiler bootstrap needs three stages.
< 1739780926 407246 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i see so spcialization has discovered something about how compilation MUST works that compilers have already been forced to face
< 1739780934 178890 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This also explains why a good compiler tastes like multiple languages. It has to taste like its target, like its host, and like its IR.
< 1739780948 483826 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes this makes sense
< 1739780962 769171 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Because a compiler made from a specializer would also, by Glück's theorem, have pieces of the target specializer, host specializer, and IR specializer mixed up inside.
< 1739780967 62522 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it must have AT LEAST 3 stages to translate one language to another with the middle stage being an intermediate representation
< 1739780995 497893 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But also, it doesn't have to have more than three. Any extra stages could be broken up into their own mini-compilers.
< 1739780996 761461 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :even my mmcr macro program could be said to have 3 stages
< 1739781030 395915 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was struggling to remove one of the stages now I am thinking that might not be logical to do
< 1739781044 781976 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :here is antoer way to say that
< 1739781052 479616 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the first stage of a compiler is a representation of teh soruce code
< 1739781060 706820 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the second stage is an intermediate layer of processing that soruce code
< 1739781064 496541 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If your IR is somehow trivial, then you could avoid having a middle stage. But it means that you wouldn't really be able to do any optimizations.
< 1739781067 801188 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the third stage is a representation of the output code
< 1739781084 39135 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :we want to do optimizations
< 1739781090 287362 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :at some stage
< 1739781093 205717 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :or to be able to do taem
< 1739781098 891886 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :before teh final residue is evaluated
< 1739781149 388248 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yep, exactly.
< 1739781164 174341 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so where are you going with this?
< 1739781284 445867 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, as a practical matter, I build relatively fast interpreters from relatively little source code. The first projection turns the interpreter into native code, and that native code includes a JIT which includes a specializer.
< 1739781363 685898 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The first-projection toolchain that I use is hand-written. It took about 2 PhDs/year to write. It's an open problem: can Futamura's projections be done automatically without a lot of manual effort?
< 1739781460 979031 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :what do you mean by native code
< 1739781519 868672 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, s can emit native code. Machine code. Code for a target architecture. I just introduced everything for the special case where s runs itself directly.
< 1739781577 767019 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Obviously the coolest parts of this are when we do s(s,s).
< 1739781645 492269 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Another practical way of looking at this is via the alternate-history talk, "The Birth & Death of JavaScript". It's a comedy talk from a decade ago; https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death-of-javascript is a recording. I was in the audience!
< 1739781647 321614 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :okay so you have a specializer that generates a binary that specializes the source code into a kind of a jit
< 1739781666 943267 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :what about the second projectioon
< 1739781670 580721 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This talk's very close to predicting the actual future; the technology we got isn't called METAL, but WebAssembly.
< 1739781708 303130 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The second projection is like what happens when you build GCC or LLVM. You get to choose which architecture you're targeting; if it's not your host, then you get what's called a *cross compiler*.
< 1739781719 291904 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Because you're compiling "a-cross" architectures, I guess?
< 1739781728 300493 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah so in the second projection the JIT compiles the code into native code
< 1739781743 32166 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :what about the third projection?
< 1739781776 703319 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think I can show you any real-world examples of third projections. There are only some academic projects that, technically, generate working code.
< 1739781808 52379 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah so for now we are stuck using just the first and second projection in industry code until the academic projects figure out how to build the third
< 1739781809 781890 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :is that right?
< 1739781862 948335 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :More or less. In practice, the situation's much worse than that; the toolchain I use is called RPython, the flagship interpreter that comes with it is called PyPy, and although it's the fastest implementation of Python, less than 2% of the community uses it.
< 1739781887 740399 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Some folks might argue that ZipPy is faster. Fine; nobody uses that either.)
< 1739781893 545924 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :okay so does this discussion have to do with blc or does it have to do with what you were saying about prolog arguments
< 1739781954 549016 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, there are very short specializers in Prolog, and there are also specializers that can (again, technically, if you wait for a few minutes) generate working third projections. So, what could we change about Prolog to make short self-applicable specializers easier to write?
< 1739781971 295205 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and you would like to make the smallest specializers possible correct?
< 1739782034 171084 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm lazy and I don't like writing code. I'd prefer a smaller language in order to have a smaller specializer that does less work.
< 1739782062 672290 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I'm not golfing. Also, I'm not sure what BLC has to do with any of this either; I'm not sure why I brought it up, sorry.
< 1739782068 549494 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :okay so first of all each of the three projection specializers could be made out of modules made out of smaller specializers
< 1739782077 705500 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :breaking them down into modules can help make your code simpler
< 1739782090 671440 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :second of all I believe that technology like blc can reduce the size of these specialziers
< 1739782102 667127 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I believe technology like fastlisp can help reduce the size
< 1739782105 235752 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh. Then I guess I've not really explained this well at all, sorry.
< 1739782135 577689 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, yes, if we just write s, then the projections are compositions of s. It turns out that writing s is hard!
< 1739782160 995699 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :we want to make writing s easy and we want s to be small
< 1739782166 35827 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And BLC is merely an encoding. It doesn't magically make things simpler. The actual target of the specializer is the underlying abstract syntax, LC in this case.
< 1739782275 964685 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :are all there projections able to be written with the same s?
< 1739782306 306409 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In a framework I'm still defining, I think that I will have types [X -> Y] which are programs that take X inputs and return Y outputs, and a specializer is fundamentally something with signature [X -> Y] -> [X -> Y]. So, like, an identity function could be a specializer.
< 1739782311 504315 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But it's not a good specializer.
< 1739782325 498765 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I dont know type theory
< 1739782329 223659 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :or category theaory
< 1739782354 721681 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm just saying that a specializer shouldn't change what types a program accepts or emits.
< 1739782379 633603 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :of course
< 1739782395 794507 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :can all three projections be written with teh same s?
< 1739782407 774789 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :in otherwords can s^3 give us what we want
< 1739782501 881892 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes. But how efficient are the residues?
< 1739782522 694691 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so we want a different s for all three projections if we want to have an optimizer
< 1739782551 942356 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Not necessarily. A good s, that always optimizes its arguments, might be able to project itself.
< 1739782574 596833 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :but until we know that we may be stuck developing s_1 s_2 and s_3 separately
< 1739782585 288520 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and currently we only have developed s_1 and s_2
< 1739782731 345794 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Look at what we already outlined so far. If you trace the definition of the third projection, you'll see that it passes [s] to s at runtime. This means that we need to put an entire copy of [s] into every residue!
< 1739782765 581567 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so then s has to be small.
< 1739782774 512751 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The only way to avoid this is if s can understand its own structure and remove the parts of [s] that it knows won't be needed. It has to do this before it knows what [y] is, too.
< 1739782775 917652 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :or rather the residue that represents s has to be small
< 1739782889 638675 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :s should produce s
< 1739782894 471752 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :similarly to how gcc compiles gcc
< 1739782896 857591 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :s should generate s
< 1739782910 588338 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. Partial-evaluation folks defined the concept of *Jones-optimality* to deal with this. We say s is Jones-optimal when it doesn't leave behind any part of [s]. It does this by doing something stronger: it removes all overhead of interpreting [s], [f], or anything else at runtime.
< 1739782930 959739 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So it's okay if s is not small as long as it's Jones-optimal.
< 1739782952 97407 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok so we need s to be EITHER jones-optimal or small
< 1739782959 57930 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :for now it ie easier to target a small s
< 1739782974 894573 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :what does building a small s_1 and s_2 entail
< 1739783038 958948 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :what are the parts that a small s_1 and s_2 composed of? a small webasm like jit and some specialized code weaved into taht jit?
< 1739783055 912055 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :They don't emit good code. Note that [s], [f], and all the other quoted programs are assumed to be in a single language. So, what if a specializer were just an interpreter for that single language?
< 1739783074 509791 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This is how practical second projections work, too. They assume that everything can be stored as some sort of bytecode somewhere.
< 1739783101 660339 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so do we prefer for s to be for a single language or do we prefer s to be for any language
< 1739783122 719019 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, RPython works by generating a JIT compiler which is generic over Python bytecode, more or less. At runtime, the compiler traces execution of that bytecode, and the bytecode is stashed as a big table in the residues.
< 1739783154 821168 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :is that what we want or do we want s to be language agnostic?
< 1739783171 113646 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :We're gonna keep saying that s is single-language. It takes programs written in some language L, it emits programs in L, and it's written in L. The question is whether L is Prolog, miniKanren, etc.
< 1739783195 401473 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok so we desire for so to be language specific or thats what we choose to do at the moment
< 1739783203 582209 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so we must write a different s_1 and s_2 for every language
< 1739783239 117815 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Consider wanting to compile from frontend language X instead, or to machine M. Just write a little interpreter of X in L, or a compiler of L to M in L, and then use s on those.
< 1739783298 674562 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think you mean taht we want to compile from X to M using L, and then we want to feed M into s
< 1739783301 395138 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :is that correct?
< 1739783338 596510 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :No, I'm considering them as two different operations. You'd use different compositions of s, too.
< 1739783373 789529 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :could you rephrase the consideration
< 1739783376 20251 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, suppose L is RPython, and suppose X is Brainfuck. Just write a little interpreter of X=Brainfuck in L=RPython: https://github.com/rpypkgs/rpypkgs/blob/main/bf/bf.py
< 1739783459 532432 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :waht is m
< 1739783462 890860 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :in this example
< 1739783476 937375 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :There isn't an M in that example.
< 1739783508 975045 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :what is the residue of applying L to x called
< 1739783564 424675 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :[m : L(x)]
< 1739783568 389977 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Once we write a good s in (Turing-complete) L, then we can absorb any other language X into L with an interpreter written in L. That interpreter also has to be good, but it only has to have insights about X, not about L.
< 1739783602 201927 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so L is our intermediate language or intermediate representation correct?
< 1739783605 176615 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In the above link, bf.py knows a lot about X=Brainfuck, including algebraic rewrites and idioms, but it doesn't know anything about optimizing L=RPython.
< 1739783642 113905 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :L is our implementation language. s might have some other intermediate representation that it never exposes.
< 1739783673 371875 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :okay so allow me to compose my own model
< 1739783683 83131 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :we have a universal S_1 and a univerasl S_2
< 1739783714 838530 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :s_1 takes an intermediate language IL and some source code S and it composes [R: IL(x)]
< 1739783718 1212 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :s_2 does the same thing
< 1739783743 220587 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :IL includes the idea of a runtime or a tiny JIT
< 1739783763 579262 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is the most optimal way I can currently imagine composing the tools youve descriebd
< 1739783777 154931 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and also have the model in my head be known valid and sound
< 1739783827 650093 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. Part of the deep insight is that there's no real difference between "intermediate" and "source" here; there's only the intuition that one is 
< 1739783832 940097 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*that one is more readable than the other.
< 1739783851 749758 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :well the reason why I want IL is so that I dont have to write multiple versions of S
< 1739783868 497630 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have an additional s called my_language_->_il
< 1739783872 388834 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay, let me be more blunt: Why is Prolog not an IL?
< 1739783881 250695 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :any language can be an IL
< 1739783893 208449 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So what do you mean by "universal"?
< 1739783917 263127 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I dont
< 1739783920 543187 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...Sorry, that was too blunt. I'm guessing that your "universal" is my "Turing-complete"? It's certainly an important qualifier.
< 1739783926 825032 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am willing to make any langauge my IL if I see evidence that ist he right thing to do
< 1739783940 426665 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I dont know what universal will mean until I explore the whole universe I guess
< 1739783954 298616 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :some variation on prolog coudl be a good IL but I think really big versions of prolog wouldn't do
< 1739783986 210087 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, okay. Here we go. So what makes a good IL? I think that that's a great discussion topic regardless of the whole meta/Futamura perspective.
< 1739784006 552918 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :we cah imagine a human_readable_il also HRIL
< 1739784011 147133 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and HRIL->IL
< 1739784025 325662 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is more or less what llvm is
< 1739784040 603624 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :IL itself should be optimal and resource efficient
< 1739784103 991118 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm gonna insist that good ILs are human-readable. Here are some examples: GIMPLE (GCC), LLVM IR, GHC Core, libfirm, QBE.
< 1739784131 979270 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :okay so heres where we differ
< 1739784140 46323 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :tehre are langauges that are much more human readable than LLVM IR
< 1739784152 802788 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so we have a scale between very human readable at 100% and not very human readable at 0%
< 1739784154 262662 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Whether an expression in an IL is optimal is usually not cheap to decide. Have you heard of superoptimization?
< 1739784163 199133 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :noI have not
< 1739784199 562797 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Basically, an optimizer is a superoptimizer when its outputs are always optimal. The way this is done is by searching all of the possible outputs, and it's very expensive.
< 1739784220 749276 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah thats why prolog makes a good optimizer on a classical computer
< 1739784235 210396 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I propose to you that hte optimizer should be written in IL
< 1739784243 936625 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so lets break this apart into three stages
< 1739784250 70568 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :you have IL_Performant
< 1739784250 614817 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This might be quite interesting to you, since we can use size for our metric, and thus superoptimize for the smallest programs.
< 1739784255 371455 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and IL_middle
< 1739784258 633529 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and IL_human_readable
< 1739784282 129446 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :as the size of programs approaches their minimum size performance will go down
< 1739784290 825667 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :once you get past a certain barrier
< 1739784311 286224 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :an IL_performant should not desire to be read by the human. this is a high level machine language
< 1739784324 896983 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :an il_middle is kind of like an assembler for IL_performant much like llvm ir
< 1739784343 157722 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :then IL_human_readable is any human langauge like c or rust or prolog or c#
< 1739784347 853070 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay, I'm gonna propose that there isn't an objective human-readable scale. My first exhibit is Perl. My second exhibit is that you probably think "my cat is blue" or "mi gato es azul" is more readable than {lo mlatu pe mi cu blanu}, so really it's a popularity contest.
< 1739784351 106464 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so IL_human_readable is x
< 1739784379 47124 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :part of my specialization includes trying to undestand how human readable code is so I ahve alot tto say on the matter
< 1739784392 659689 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :there should be a further level benath llvm_ir
< 1739784403 67240 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :taht is specifically for a machine and not for a human
< 1739784412 778630 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :native?
< 1739784417 193095 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Just to add a data point, LLVM has a binary IL format too and that's not directly human readable. (But it can be converted to the text format.)
< 1739784425 608511 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :indeed
< 1739784436 945575 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I'm not following the discussion.)
< 1739784438 931224 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :because sometimes we dont want native machien code sometimes we want a high level machine code
< 1739784459 353178 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :or a machien code for a high level optimal virtual machine
< 1739784510 654056 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't consider those sorts of isomorphisms to add to the nuance. Either they are genuine equivalences, like WASM and WAT, in which case they probably are counter-examples to whatever nuanced differance was being drawn; or they aren't, like LLVM IR, in which case they don't do what we expect of encodings.
< 1739784551 25501 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: We're discussing what makes IR good. I've taken the Pirsig position that "good" is ultimately "what you like" rather than objective criteria.
< 1739784575 56985 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am saying virtual machines like LLVM and like WASM and like microsoft CLR and like JVM all have their own high level machine code which is nto native code but is native to that vm
< 1739784586 206635 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and taht sits one layer below an intermediate representation
< 1739784603 440919 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :because an intermediate representation has to be parsed an this parsing time can interfere with performant programs
< 1739784608 953459 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. That's for cross-architecture portability. Another good example is GNU Lightning.
< 1739784629 539179 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah so we have our source code X which could be in any langauge
< 1739784647 496809 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :then we have a specializer that interleaves x with IR
< 1739784650 10955 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Nah, code loading isn't that slow. Python's VM supports cached bytecode loading but many setups will pay a repeated parsing and compiling penalty of like 1ms/module.
< 1739784657 35854 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :then we have a specializer that interleaves IR with a high level virtual machine code
< 1739784667 320392 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :then we have a specializer that interleiaves high level virtual amchien code with native code
< 1739784731 680118 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yep, you're seeing it now. Once we have a good specializer, why shouldn't we JIT?
< 1739784745 295753 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :we should JIT that is part of the specializer
< 1739784752 870932 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :unless we are specializing to native code in which case we might not need a jit
< 1739784757 863301 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :but we might wana a jit
< 1739784772 574927 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Yeah I agree that it's subjective... and on top of that, context dependent (i.e. the same person may have different preferences depending on what they're trying to accomplish)
< 1739784793 52192 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :This is not specific to IRs at all.
< 1739784817 195372 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so lets get our terminology straight
< 1739784819 726244 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :a specializer is s
< 1739784824 313643 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :source code is x
< 1739784828 121269 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Exactly! The top context is that I want to build self-applicable partial evaluators. So I'm looking at the classic results for languages like Prolog and imagining synthetic changes that might make them easier to specialize.
< 1739784828 897274 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :itermediate langauge is IL
< 1739784841 811143 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :a low level intermediate langauge is machine_IL or MIL
< 1739784865 698584 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so we have an s for every x whos residue is an IL
< 1739784875 452537 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :we have an s for every IL whos residue is an MIL
< 1739784885 239670 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :we have a s for every MIL whose residue is some specified native code
< 1739784917 791568 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :x -> IL -> MIL -> native
< 1739784934 634012 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. GCC, at least in the olden days, was a good example of this; the frontends communicated in e.g. GIMPLE to the core, which also uses GIMPLE internally, but the machine-specific backends use machine- and kernel-specific information.
< 1739784957 726223 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the first -> we can call A1
< 1739784962 983468 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the second -> we can call a2
< 1739784970 780778 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the thhird -> we can call a3
< 1739785012 162958 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :[MIL: s(MIL,Native)]
< 1739785027 806541 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :[IL: s(IL, MIL)]
< 1739785125 974233 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so we can invent a new language falled foople
< 1739785144 454365 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :first we pick or write an itermediate langauge and we write an s that foople -> IL
< 1739785172 701260 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :then we choose or write an s that IL-> some MIL
< 1739785185 652679 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :then we choose or write an MIL that MIL-> some native code
< 1739785189 660492 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :that is the hierarchy afaik
< 1739785228 703495 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :do we agree or do you feel differently
< 1739785258 608712 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, I don't really do hierarchies. I also historically haven't found it useful to have multiple ILs.
< 1739785307 21113 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do think that specific techniques like nanopass are fine, producing dozens of ILs, when the nanopass framework ensures that everything is type-safe and optimized away.
< 1739785363 625738 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But, having written a nanopass framework, I also don't think it's worth the effort for a specializer. The beauty of the specializer is that it can be driven by a choice of a single language L which happens to have good tools for manipulating L.
< 1739785420 934925 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :people will attempt to write mutliple ILs
< 1739785435 501894 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and so there will be multiple ILs to choose from some better than others
< 1739785451 294046 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, no, they'll write new Fooples.
< 1739785466 28828 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :well tehy will write new Xs
< 1739785469 644757 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :foople is a specific x
< 1739785490 948702 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :there arlready are multiple ILs to choose from
< 1739785496 347068 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :denying that these exist is illogical
< 1739785498 76459 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( https://xkcd.com/927/ )
< 1739785512 419155 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :mroeover there are already multiple MILs written and denying they exist is illogical
< 1739785569 449269 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( https://ro-che.info/ccc/20 )
< 1739785570 702038 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the "all existing attempts to do $X suck, we need a new approach" thought is very appealing, but unless you have some actual insight into the domain that the previous attempts lack, it almost certainly won't work
< 1739785614 782008 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :saying "there are no IL's that are bad" is kind of a no true scottsman argument
< 1739785621 282278 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :OTOH what you often can do is something that fits your own use case better than the existing things.
< 1739785626 623043 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is more accurate to say "bad ILs dont matter and might as well not exist"
< 1739785629 522833 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Whether a language is IL or not, in terms of whether people will write languages alongside it, isn't predictive. Paraphrasing a classic joke, "do you think JavaScript knew it'd end up as a compiler target?"
< 1739785640 686700 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :any language can be used as an IL
< 1739785651 124978 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh! All ILs I know of are bad.
< 1739785660 383772 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :IL is just x used in a different way
< 1739785676 529284 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :IL is making x a compiler target
< 1739785676 742873 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes! Any language can be used as an IL, so we might as well use L, the host language of specialiser s, as our IL.
< 1739785689 176200 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :what is L in this instance?
< 1739785700 31992 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's that one Stroustrup quote that I agree with... There are two kinds of programming languages, those that everybody complains about and those that nobody uses.
< 1739785704 644664 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :L is what s takes as input, emits as output, and is written in.
< 1739785727 267605 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so what is s in this instance?
< 1739785734 659809 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I imagine that's just as true for intermediate languages.
< 1739785741 717778 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: In the Pacific Northwest, we say "X sucks, use X." For example, "Nix sucks, use Nix."
< 1739785768 795328 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: s is just a specializer that can be applied to itself to make second and third projections.
< 1739785779 777447 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've never been in enough dependency pain to actually use Nix.
< 1739785790 886722 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :thats kind of fishy to replace IL with an L to s
< 1739785801 206828 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it implies a perfect L and a perfect s
< 1739785807 158204 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Nice tangent.)
< 1739785816 222366 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :use nonguix
< 1739785816 533267 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Nix gives me a sort of abstractive radius. Like, I could maintain one or two RPython codebases by hand, but Nix lets me maintain an entire collection of like twenty codebases.
< 1739785859 833051 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: Oh! So, this is why "universal" or "Turing-complete" matter so much. Any computation you can write down can be found in L, for *any choice* of L.
< 1739785883 931069 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah I have to think about this for a while
< 1739785902 694592 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :L might not have arbitrary data structures, but it can have arbitrary effects as if it had those data structures. It can produce any I/O pattern you want, except for the uncomputable ones.
< 1739785905 714996 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have to move from my model of thinking of x->IL->MIL->native over to some model that includes only S and L
< 1739785925 96077 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the differnce is that x->IL->mil-> native systems exist today and you can use them and build them
< 1739785935 38917 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :where as S and L machines seem more theoretical unless I can know more info about S and L
< 1739785971 605899 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Your model is fine, BTW. It's the same detail as with GCC's triple of build, host, target, which is also used by Gentoo and Nix and other cross-compile-aware ports trees. It's the model needed to understand Glück 2009.
< 1739786000 845113 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's just not what I'm currently interested in tonight. But I'm happy to bridge the knowledge gap because I think this is such a cool corner of computer science.
< 1739786001 18038 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it seems to me that each of thes arrows is a function
< 1739786011 823030 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :one we can call x->IL or a1
< 1739786016 116418 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :one we can call IL->mil or a2
< 1739786021 857556 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :one we can call mil->native or a3
< 1739786038 114562 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it seems to be that all of those can be executed by a function compiled to native or compiled to MIL
< 1739786046 496222 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I think that is what you are talking about when you talk about s and l
< 1739786083 587711 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the thing is there has to be at least two of them
< 1739786089 180654 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :because sometimes we cant chose to run s natively
< 1739786099 866725 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :other times our only choice is to run s on the native machine
< 1739786112 906030 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. That's what e.g. WASM folks do with their runtimes. There's the WASM specializers running in WASM, and then there's also a browser or WasmTime or whatever.
< 1739786167 862597 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I dont know how to notate a specializer written in MIL that takes x and produces the residue of [y: IL(x)]
< 1739786205 514524 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :No worries. I get what you're saying. The formal notation for this is called "tombstone diagrams" or "T-diagrams"; they look like T-pieces from Tetris.
< 1739786218 505730 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Are we trying to reinvent the concept of a program transformation?
< 1739786231 850807 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :thats what korvo has opened a discussion with me on it seems
< 1739786241 190243 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :They're lovely to draw on a board, but they don't fit in IRC. WP's current page on them is not bad: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tombstone_diagram
< 1739786247 379059 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it seems to me  wasm is already almost as performant as machine code
< 1739786255 831767 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I think for MOST programs we can forget about native code
< 1739786259 535202 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and just focuse on MIL
< 1739786265 621904 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I find it impossible to tell whether this is a concrete task that has become unrecognizable through premature abstraction... or whether the point is to abstract.
< 1739786290 258700 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1739786291 828932 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the idea that abstraction isnt useful is a meme
< 1739786293 858736 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :untrue
< 1739786295 198129 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: They're coming to understand how a specializer could be associated with three different languages. I'm focused on a more concrete engineering task using only one language.
< 1739786340 821172 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In the background I've been reading this thesis about metaKanren, a miniKanren that supports metacircular access.
< 1739786370 759781 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think you need to study how performant the literal smallest virutal machines are even able to be
< 1739786383 121251 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :because the literal smalllest virtual machines arent very performant
< 1739786415 432358 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think IL and x are the same
< 1739786420 32099 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so we can come up with a new model
< 1739786424 403366 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :we pick a langauge x
< 1739786441 421014 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and we specialize x-> MIL(x)
< 1739786456 215270 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then some low level people worry about specializing MIL->native
< 1739786462 16195 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and this is a very very simple model
< 1739786463 663598 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So yes, VMs can have performace characteristics as a matter of engineering, but I think it's wrong to try to pick on VM choice here. We're talking languages, not VMs, right?
< 1739786501 303510 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :well both lenses are useful
< 1739786510 906126 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :in one lense it is useful to think about it abstractly without specifying vm
< 1739786518 990276 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :in another lense it is more useful to talk about specific vms
< 1739786530 384344 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and in yet another lense it is more useful to talk about specific and already existing vms
< 1739786552 726695 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In practice, there's no interesting specialization happening at that MIL->native layer; it's all instruction selection. (I wrote two such instruction-selection tables for GPU drivers. It's boring.)
< 1739786595 99927 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah the virtual machien for a machine readable intermediate language is almost as fast as native as seen in wasm
< 1739786602 53329 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so we dont have to worry about MIL->native
< 1739786608 572448 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :for most applications
< 1739786639 924570 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :all we must do is pick a langauge x
< 1739786667 144565 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and write a specializer that takes x and -> to MIL
< 1739786674 373268 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and we can write that specializer in x
< 1739786738 71495 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, no. The winning strategy turned out to take a higher-level IL that only has a few operations, but gives those operations either parameters or polymorphism (i.e. dynamic dispatch), and then to JIT that IL based on concrete values of those parameters at runtime.
< 1739786788 63930 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :By "a few", ISTR that Self's VM has eight operations. That number has ballooned, if you look at Strongtalk and Java VMs, but the original idea was that the JIT only has a few possible choices to consider at any possible time.
< 1739786817 104263 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :please give these components acronyms
< 1739786850 658405 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Remember -- hours ago!? sheesh I should sleep soon -- that I said that we want "a few" to be like two or three. Each time we have a branch, we want the exponent controlling the size of our search to be small.
< 1739786879 968997 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think part of what you are saying is that it is proven that a language can be an IL and still be as performant as an MIL
< 1739786881 758797 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :is that true?
< 1739786928 750558 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :There aren't any acronyms worth remembering. I'm just saying that the speed comes from a specific lineage of languages that were designed to be JIT'd: Self, Strongtalk, Java, C♯, Dart.
< 1739787019 810470 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Another VM worth mentioning (again?) is GNU Lightning, which was also designed to be JIT'd. The fastest Brainfuck interpreter on the wiki targets GNU Lightning.
< 1739787089 272976 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think your answer is meant to be yes, an intermediate langauge that is humanr eadable that is evolved from a lineage of languages designed to be JIT'd can be as performant as a MIL
< 1739787103 393724 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. More generally, performance isn't a property of languages!
< 1739787112 915038 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and so if that is true then we can remove MIL from our vocabulary and we can refer to IL from now on as being a language from a specific lineage of languages that were desigend to be jited
< 1739787149 69469 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so first we must pick an IL that is evolved from languages designed to be jitted
< 1739787165 765408 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :then for every x we must write in some language a specializer from x to IL
< 1739787202 736745 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. Although I'm looking right now at languages that can be designed for partial evaluation. Some JITs do partial evaluation, but not the famous lineage with the amazing JVM.
< 1739787225 785947 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :well picking something like java or c# is going to complicated for your research
< 1739787228 148724 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm only half-sarcastic. Look up Azul's products, particularly Zulu, if you want to see how fast JVMs can get.
< 1739787236 101291 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :we would obviously like a very simple language that is designed to be jited
< 1739787247 758914 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :or rather that is designed for jit
< 1739787259 453207 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, yeah. Speed isn't everything! Particularly when we've only barely talked about what makes this whole process fast or slow.
< 1739787285 617921 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :well first of all some engineers strongly prefer the word performance over speed
< 1739787298 108911 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you may run into this issue in irc altohugh I do not mind if you use the word speed
< 1739787310 200561 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i will use the word performance
< 1739787322 968675 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't care about memory usage. Most practical partial evaluation uses lots of memory; PyPy takes like 12GiB of RAM to translate.
< 1739787346 840605 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But sure, I don't mind talking about generalized resource usage.
< 1739787349 985529 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :second of all when I as saying earlier that the smallest languages are not very performant, there are some very small languages that are performant
< 1739787363 744343 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is only when you get very close to the smallest of languages that you see huge drops in performance
< 1739787394 925853 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can have a very performant language in under a megabate of native code or IL code
< 1739787402 558818 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the isnt the issue
< 1739787415 365275 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh! Okay. We were talking past each other earlier.
< 1739787432 911403 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah so there are three kinds of virtual machines in this lense
< 1739787442 482897 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :When I say "small language" I mean a small grammar of a countable (infinite) language. I'm not talking about implementation size.
< 1739787444 855470 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :one is designed for the smallest of computers like smart dust and cellular robots for medicine
< 1739787456 933452 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :those generally have to have real time computing
< 1739787458 616794 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :as a feature
< 1739787472 426966 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the second is very small virtual machines that go in smaller applications like the browser tab
< 1739787494 925176 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :then you have very big industrial virtual machines that often ask for at least a gigbyte of memory and generally are a sever for virtualization in a whole os
< 1739787503 815073 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :such as the common language runtime or the jvm
< 1739787513 440669 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :a virtualization daemon
< 1739787560 517805 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay, yeah, by "virtual machine" I was talking more about the abstraction than the implementation. I recognize that a software engineer is going to read "VM" and think "emulator".
< 1739787596 624820 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :a baby virtual machine under a megabyte can ask the big server vm to do compute jobs
< 1739787604 699974 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and teh server vm can use the graphics card and stuff like this
< 1739787609 5686 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: So, I want to re-introduce the entire topic with the other notion of "small": I want a language that, like Prolog, only has a few possible types of clauses that need to be analyzed by a specializer.
< 1739787622 460356 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so we can talk about the size of the compiled language
< 1739787626 284143 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then we can talk about the size of its grammar
< 1739787637 580500 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :a language can have a small grammar like prolog but a huge compiled program that runs it
< 1739787650 568494 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :or a language can have a very small compiled program that runs it but be extended to a huge grammar
< 1739787651 800631 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Something like WebAssembly, though "small" in the size of an emulator which implements it, is quite large in the number of possible instructions that can occur, which means that its specializers need to cover many different possibilities.
< 1739787678 808960 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :from what I gather about mathematics what most programmers refer to as exponential growth is often multiplicative growth
< 1739787690 830707 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and what most programmers refer to as a syntax is actually called a grammar
< 1739787696 824872 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i could be wrong about both of those though
< 1739787704 989110 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This is the sense in which Self is "small"; with only eight possible instructions, any specializer or JIT only has a few possibilities to cover.
< 1739787721 491629 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :we we can offer some ranges
< 1739787738 502477 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you're searching a tree, and the number of possibilities at each branch is a constant, then the tree is exponentially large.
< 1739787770 915042 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :we can talk in terms of bytes, tens of bites, hundreds of bies, and then kilobytes and tens of kilobytes and hundres of kilobytes, and then megabtyes and tens of megabytes and then hundreds of megabtes, and then gigabytes and then tens of gigabytes and then hundreds of gigabytes
< 1739787785 684201 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the commmon language runtime is at least 1 gigabyte in terms of ram
< 1739787799 30605 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I dont know how many megabytes it is in storage but it is likely at least in the hundreds or more
< 1739787822 997756 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :whereas we know as langauge people that you could probably get most of the performance of the common language runtime in under a megabyte
< 1739787825 38706 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :wouldnt you agree?
< 1739787852 348457 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :we would also like to use a language much like prolog with a small useful grammmar
< 1739788090 982923 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sorry, I can't find a way to interpret that setup.
< 1739788154 29999 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The CLR's size probably doesn't have much to do with having a JIT. I'd guess that they have a lot of i18n. You'd be surprised how large the tables are for basic Unicode support.
< 1739788207 444034 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1739788399 199017 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay, sleep is no longer optional. Peace.
> 1739791741 411968 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152107&oldid=152104 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1406) 10
< 1739792242 634059 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
> 1739794204 407177 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Gilbert189/Polymorphic quine14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152108 5* 03Gilbert189 5* (+11283) 10This has been in the works for quite some time...
> 1739794247 956413 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Gilbert18914]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152109&oldid=139872 5* 03Gilbert189 5* (+79) 10/* See also */
< 1739797272 9656 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1739797425 166466 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Moin
< 1739799143 957080 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1739800068 882978 :dawids_!~dawids@109.76.207.165 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
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> 1739804702 836632 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Anthonykozar/Notes14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152110 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (+271) 10New page for me to keep notes on the wiki
< 1739805063 960769 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1739805112 985694 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : One idea I thought of is "base zero" numbers that are stored the power of zero and the multiple. This way, you can make sizeof(x)/sizeof(*x) if x is an array even if sizeof(*x)==0 ← I think you could make that work by giving zero-sized objects an infinitesimal size?
< 1739805463 409572 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : It seems like most existing research has been analytic. Given e.g. Prolog, how few clauses are required for partial evaluation? But I think we should be synthetic: what modifications to Prolog would reduce the number of clauses? ← one obvious modification: Prolog represents the bodies of clauses using a free monoid, meaning that you need three cases (identity, generator, and other cases); if you represented them using a list instead you would only 
< 1739805464 828835 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :need two (empty list, nonempty list); add a map builtin (that doesn't require the creation of an extra clause to use it) and you only need one
< 1739805526 915506 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but this reasoning just makes me think that counting clauses is wrong
< 1739805680 243994 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1739805934 596054 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually I'm not sure the map builtin helps because then you need to implement it within the evaluator
< 1739805941 502538 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but converting clause bodies to lists does help
< 1739805998 232803 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you get something like eval([]) :- []. eval([Goal|Tail]) :- clause(Goal, Body), eval(Body), eval(Tail).
< 1739806002 665505 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err
< 1739806005 925677 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :eval([]) :- []. eval([Goal|Tail]) :- clause(Goal, Body), eval(Body), eval(Tail).
< 1739806011 192990 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :eval([]) :- []. eval([Goal|Tail]) :- [clause(Goal, Body), eval(Body), eval(Tail)].
< 1739806012 765744 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there we go
< 1739806049 773234 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and you can desugar [X|Y] as '.'(X,Y), etc., as usual)
< 1739806161 574025 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : I'm gonna insist that good ILs are human-readable. ← having thought about this a while myself, I think that this isn't *quite* right, it should be "good ILs can easily/automatically be converted to and from a human-readable form", but you can create an assembly language for them for the purpose
< 1739806442 633601 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1739806652 943977 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it's neither of those. the compiler should be able to emit tracing information that lets you debug the compiler and verify that the IL is correct. but this tracing information is only needed when you're either debugging the compiler or debugging the machine that executes the IL. when you'll programming in a high-level language normally then
< 1739806653 456605 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you trust the compiler, don't ask for such trace, and the IL that you get in that case alone needn't be translatable to human-readable.
< 1739806736 276351 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :This is how machine code works in practice. It's not easy to decompile (transform to human-readable) because the instructions are variable length so you don't know where to start disassembling, there can be unreachable code anywhere, you don't know what type most of the data that it manipulates has.
< 1739806782 890526 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But if you do emit detailed debug information then you can decompile because the debug information tells which parts of the code are executed and what the registers and stack frame stores at any point.
< 1739806949 345129 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Of course this is just theory. In practice the debug information could be incomplete or buggy (which was often the case back around 2000 if you used C++). And the reverse engineer folks are racing compilers close behind with their heuristics so that they can decompile machine code without debug information because this is useful for itsec.
> 1739807279 485616 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Anthonykozar/Notes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152111&oldid=152110 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (+257) 10Added Bespoke and new sections.
< 1739808161 391779 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: many machine codes do have deterministic ways to find the start of an instruction – I'm not sure whether it's more or less than half
< 1739808351 820786 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, that could help, but that's not enough. you also need to be able to distinguish segments that contain code from other read-only segments, which is already possible on at least some machines, and even then decompiling might not be easy
< 1739808434 271295 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :don't most formats for storing executables distinguish between code and other rodata? even if the processor itself doesn't?
< 1739808457 266188 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know
< 1739808493 557729 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :besides, the original comment was about ILs and those definitely distinguish, otherwise the compiler can't know what needs to be compiled and what needs to be left untouched
< 1739808535 1109 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's only if you're compiling the IL rather than interpreting it
< 1739808551 44556 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :good point
< 1739808552 28327 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or JIT-compiling
< 1739808573 950620 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :a JIT-compiler won't know in advance which parts of the code it will have to compiler
< 1739808603 295789 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this reminds me of an idea I had a while ago: instead of storing separate unwinding tables, work them out at runtime via partially decompiling the running code – the decompiler could be very simple as it only needs to get the unwinding-related information right, and the code could be explicitly generated in a way that made the decompiler work
< 1739808606 708927 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's how qemu's non-native mode (which few people use) works for x86
< 1739808645 812179 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I've used non-native qemu before now, probably to run a program written for a processor architecture unrelated to the one my computer used
< 1739808683 376373 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm saying specifically for an x86 guest; for other guests it probably does get used
< 1739808740 794834 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :as for that unwinding, even if it finds the stack frames, how would it know what destructors to call while unwinding?
< 1739808760 97944 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or would this only be unwinding that prints a stack trace for a fatal error?
< 1739808827 551362 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my plan was to mark destructors and the like using NOPs or via the choice of equivalent instructions
< 1739808860 931900 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is a bit like having separate unwinding tables, but more lightweight
< 1739808894 53527 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it could be something as simple as code ordering, e.g. decompile assuming forward jumps are taken but backward jumps are not taken
> 1739809999 711633 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Anthonykozar/Notes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152112&oldid=152111 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (+190) 10Adding links to categories to explore
< 1739811106 32401 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
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< 1739814109 6010 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I didn't want to pull a thread that they might not understand how to restitch. An IL should admit some sort of nice decompiler, but I thought it was more important to push against the idea that low-level machines are somehow complicated or obfuscated to the point of unreadability.
< 1739814257 364899 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: The point about the monoid is good. For some reason right now it's rhyming with "lazy languages don't have sums, eager languages don't have products", probably because of the ,/2 and ;/2 functors.
< 1739814434 864988 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: right, I wasn't so much trying to interfere in your conversation as to make comments inspired by it
< 1739814479 526551 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Oh, I completely see where you're coming from. I just have trouble supporting it from the opposite direction.
< 1739814514 128253 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one esolanging problem I'm working on at the moment is currently trying to construct a good IL
< 1739814543 150612 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, would you believe that COBOL was originally supposed to be a low-code platform? It was supposed to remove the need for debuggers and humans who could step through the machines.
< 1739814552 694060 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I pretty much know what I want (e.g. I want it to be stack-based even though the original isn't), just trying to work out the details
< 1739814558 747182 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: SQL, too
< 1739814572 136824 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yessss.
< 1739814574 628399 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which may have been slightly more successful at that than COBOL was, but still mostly didn't meet that goal
< 1739814652 855330 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder whether people have stopped making the mistake of assuming that "writing code so that the meaning of every instruction in it is clear to typical speakers of «insert native language here» mean that those speakers will necessarily understand everything the program is doing" yet
< 1739814685 14272 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…and I also wonder whether that mistake is more likely to be made by programmers or non-programmers
> 1739814710 598815 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Aadenboy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152113&oldid=151742 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+36) 10muahaha.
< 1739814763 77438 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's fairly obvious to me that learning what "a = b + c" means is not the major trouble of learning how to program, and that writing it as "ADD B TO C GIVING A" will make matters worse in the long term
< 1739814785 29450 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that doesn't seem to be obvious to everyone
< 1739814825 941315 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(at one point, my day job involved teaching people how to write Java – it really is the case that the meaning of "a = b + c" isn't obvious to everyone and has to be learned, but it really isn't difficult compared to other things that you have to learn to be able to write working programs)
< 1739815073 382350 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…and of course, there are then languages like Prolog where "A = B + C" is a legal command-equivalent but means something different, and that also catches people out
> 1739815172 406080 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152114&oldid=151911 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+668) 10add signature code
< 1739816582 684348 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://github.com/memesmith0/mcr16_projects
< 1739816671 51866 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i have greatly extended the syntax of mcr
< 1739816680 130567 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :at the cost that you dont immediately get a working shell out of it
< 1739817682 938749 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
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< 1739817896 75501 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1739819342 362960 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay, finished reading the late-night scrollback. Something really funny in there. Let X and Y be objects in some category, let [-] be a functor on that category sending objects X to objects of quoted programs [X], and let [[X,Y]] → [[X,Y]] be the type of polymorphic specializers.
< 1739819362 401345 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...Oh, and let [X,Y] be the type of the internal homs X → Y.
< 1739819417 636818 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Then this all snaps together for free categories, as lisbeths intuited: an identity arrow serves as a specializer. The downside is that all arrows are equivalent to identity arrows in this setup!
< 1739819429 544645 :nitrix!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1739819464 508366 :nitrix!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix JOIN #esolangs nitrix :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1739819467 591082 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes in this instance when we say that x => IL or IL=> native teh -> refers to a specializer
< 1739819486 668463 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :do tehre needs to be a specializer for every IL to every native language
< 1739819496 703174 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and tehre needs to be a specializer for every x to every IL
< 1739819511 753731 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So, in some sense, it's not just about finding the smallest branching factor for clauses/sums/tags/etc., but recognizing that the smallest branch factor is 1 in the case of free categories, with a trivialized model.
< 1739819513 462496 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and finally there is a specializer from one IL to another
< 1739819521 791425 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: No, that's not what I'm talking about.
< 1739819572 522447 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm saying that, if we synthesize a basic language just for partial evaluation, then the simplest possible construction already works perfectly. It just can't do anything; it's certainly not Turing-complete.
< 1739819657 932948 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it seems like what you want is a universal s_1 a universal s_2 and and a universal s_3 and if we are lucky they can all be the same s
< 1739819667 245533 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, and it's an identity arrow.
< 1739819670 62711 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :part of doing that id agreeing upon an IL is it not?
< 1739819680 688410 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1739819795 117746 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: Nah, I'm not really interested in concrete syntax today. Too many errands to take care off.
< 1739819834 617651 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you dont have time to discuss speializers today we can discuss it another time
< 1739819843 313000 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :or maybe you mean taht you arent currently willing to commit to an IL just yet
< 1739819898 634008 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :No, I mean that concrete syntax is incredibly boring and discussing it is usually not a good use of time. You have to understand: I normally just shove everything into S-expressions or JSON and write code to do my manipulations. I am tired of writing parsers.
< 1739819929 663727 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah I am of a similar mindset
< 1739819935 844040 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you have questions about specializers, then I can answer those.
< 1739819969 463391 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :well I just dont yet understand how you plan on building an s_1 or an s_2 without comitting to a top 10 list of ILs
< 1739819985 451431 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :are you saying s_1 and s_2 dont need an IL?
< 1739820051 386423 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In those terms, I'm talking about *designing* an IL.
< 1739820211 877142 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh so you arent satisfied with the current ILs available
< 1739820216 195987 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and you wnt another one korvo 
< 1739820230 891907 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :or is there another reason why you want a new IL
< 1739820263 356243 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, yeah, all the available ILs suck.
< 1739820330 905960 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: is there a top 3 that you could recommend to use until a better IL comes along?
< 1739820379 960973 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: What are you trying to build?
< 1739820387 627668 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :x
< 1739820439 443842 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :right now my compiler is fastlisp -> binary lambda calculus 2
< 1739820539 132836 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Write your own IL. Look up "alpha-normal form" and "continuation-passing style", often abbreviated ANF and CPS.
< 1739820571 190239 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Continuation-passing is a great tool for compiling to LC. It's also fairly good at compiling out of lambda-heavy languages like Lisps.
< 1739820694 340408 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :binary lambda calculus 2 is my IL
< 1739820703 493286 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :After reading about that, you could look up strategies for optimizing LC expressions, particularly "interaction nets" and "optimal beta-reduction". You may also find "graph reduction" fascinating, but it's a little more expensive at runtime and usually only used for lazy/non-strict languages like Haskell or Miranda.
< 1739820705 377005 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am not in the business of writing my own ILs
< 1739820716 686549 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :You mean that LC is your IL. BLC is an *encoding*.
< 1739820748 390019 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :thats right LC is my IL and the universal way to represent lambda calculus is BLC
< 1739820772 516060 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is because every program in fastlisp is a lambda so it makes sense for LC to be my IL
< 1739820781 183937 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And even then, there are strategies for representing LC terms. BLC uses De Bruijn indices, but there may be more efficient in-memory representations when doing lots of beta-reductions.
< 1739820803 371389 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have been told common lisp is the fstest lambda calculus interpreter
< 1739820847 871108 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do not write ILs but I am curious about your research as you brough it up to me last night and explained it in depth
< 1739820864 809753 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is intriguing to replace compilers with more efficient proof driven systems called s
< 1739820866 5112 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The most notable strategy to look at is Elliott & Kmett's "bound" library https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bound which collects De Bruijn indices in a clever way to avoid having to substitute every index during every binding.
< 1739820928 389500 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If we're thinking of Lisp runtimes as LC interpreters, then the fastest is probably Chez Scheme, followed closely by CHICKEN Scheme and SBCL. Note that SBCL doesn't actually interpret, but it contains a JIT compiler.
< 1739821066 70921 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :for now I am using sectorlambda
< 1739821078 356927 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it doesnt matter which one i use because its outputs will be the same
< 1739821091 821492 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :except for order of evaluation
< 1739821118 966229 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Actually, you'll find that many Lisp runtimes *fail* when given large programs.
< 1739821142 59746 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :well sectorlisp can grwo to like 2gb of memory so I think sectorlambda can probably do the same
< 1739821163 899684 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i may roll my own lambda calculus interpreter in posix sh
< 1739821177 261527 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :For example, my Cammy language (documented on wiki) started out compiling to OCaml, but I was routinely busting its stack at runtime. Then I switched to Haskell, and then to CHICKEN Scheme, but they weren't fast enough.
< 1739821213 360319 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ultimately except for evaluation order it should not matter which interpreter I use for lambda calculus
< 1739821220 954949 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can always switch alter
< 1739821223 428936 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :later
< 1739821223 720176 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm currently running on a OCaml-like machine -- a CAM -- implemented in RPython. The stack is set up to spill to the heap. This is fast enough for my current needs.
< 1739821246 658213 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :lambda calculus should be plug and play so if sectorlambda fails me I can just hop to another lambda calculus interpeter
< 1739821256 254370 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure, except for I/O.
< 1739821269 283305 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also garbage collection.
< 1739821273 110981 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the binary lambda calculus way of output is returning a llinked list of booleans
< 1739821283 662324 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the input is in the source
< 1739821313 790991 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, BLC has an I/O convention. But it's not plug-and-play; it requires a bit of setup in the host language.
< 1739821337 277200 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes this is why I am currently gonna use sctorlambda to make things easier for myself
< 1739821346 589723 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :but i can switch if that one fails me no problem
< 1739821515 199611 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am going to write some code in fastlisp that that is used to orchestrate the compilation of a subset of lambda calculus over to an IL
< 1739821519 459239 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and that is how fastlisp will achieve performance
< 1739821547 518630 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think a reality check is in order. When we say that an LC evaluator is "fast" we mean that it achieves many beta-reductions/second.
< 1739821572 565444 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :We don't mean that data structures encoded in LC have good wall-clock performance on today's bit-oriented hardware.
< 1739821574 613821 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah fastlisp is meant to be compiletime only for most things
< 1739821581 864193 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and some tasks have to be offloaded to haskell
< 1739821612 421228 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :c++ doesnt actually run on the hardware c++ only really exists at compiletime
< 1739821634 893313 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :machine code generated by a c++ compiler runs on the hardware not c++ itself
< 1739821674 693359 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :whereas if you look at DSSP that is a langauge that is alot closer to actually running on the hardware itself
< 1739821697 373513 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. So, double-checking, LC is really small. It only has three constructors or so. You don't really need to think much about the IL for it, at least not yet.
< 1739821705 311351 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :You can just *do that* right now.
< 1739821732 775742 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :well see
< 1739821738 863873 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :fastlisp is going to write libraries
< 1739821748 518164 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and those libraries are going to orchestrate the generation of python code
< 1739821757 293086 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the generation of some language evolved to go into a jit
< 1739821806 811421 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But by committing to such a heavyweight grand plan, you've now required your IL to serialize to disk, which ruins the entire point of doing abstract syntax.
< 1739821823 368924 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah i mean this is just experimental
< 1739821838 853008 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the idea is something like fastlisp could be developed into something nicer
< 1739821871 596100 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the primary objective of fastlisps design is to be easy
< 1739821885 459749 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :no other metric is as important as easiness in my research
< 1739821905 46843 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so i am willing to waste many compute cycles to shave off some difficulty for the programmer
< 1739821914 308696 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, okay, yeah. So, this is a common-enough fallacy that we really need a name for it. Closely related is the *Turing Tarpit*, the idea of a universal system where nothing is easy to construct.
< 1739821957 837947 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If all of our engineering problems were nicely reducible to LC in a way that executes fast enough for our needs, then we would have all switched to Lisps in the 1980s.
< 1739821972 514538 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Similarly, if Horn clauses were the right answer to everything, then we would have switched to Prologs in the 1990s.
< 1739821975 272253 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :thats fine
< 1739821986 898374 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :if my language turns out not to be easy then I will change it
< 1739821995 127521 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am not worried about it being fast enough
< 1739822010 230699 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :also I am willing for compile times to be upwards of 2 hours
< 1739822017 683359 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and take gigabytes of storage
< 1739822042 375001 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :this research has purely to do with what is easy not with what is efficient
< 1739822069 265481 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Really! So why not RPython?
< 1739822097 961547 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I happen to believe that fastlisp is much easier than rpython but let me take a look at rpython quickly
< 1739822113 54223 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Probably because you have this "fast" goal, which I'm seeing primarily as optimizing program size, which is even more important than ease of use.
< 1739822134 454924 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh no sorry
< 1739822136 754670 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :fastlisp is not fast
< 1739822139 459573 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :or performant
< 1739822142 442852 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry for the confusion
< 1739822156 91873 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :No, I remember, "fast" is your living-out-of-a-bag meme. It's about size, right?
< 1739822157 344353 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is named fastlisp after the fastman meme
< 1739822177 415452 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :well everything I name I name it by gluing fast to the beginning of its proper name
< 1739822185 669806 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :teh word fast has nothing to do with fastlisp
< 1739822192 717511 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :even though performancen does concern me
< 1739822199 678660 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am more concerned with easiness
< 1739822225 868329 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have looked at rpython I think fastlisp is likely an easier language
< 1739822290 814394 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Would you write a DIVSPL interpreter in fastlisp, for comparison? I don't expect you to beat mine in terms of performance, but maybe it'll be smaller or easier to read than: https://github.com/rpypkgs/rpypkgs/blob/main/divspl/divspl.py
< 1739822316 810489 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It should read like ordinary Python 3, since I wrote it in Python 3 first and then ported to RPython later.
< 1739822340 323108 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so *in* fastlisp no
< 1739822348 470105 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I could write it in telesial fastlisp
< 1739822835 753589 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :fastlisp is broken up into a few categories
< 1739822842 561791 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :first of all there is subterranian code which is not in fastlisp
< 1739822859 575619 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :then there is fastlisp code that directly generates subterranian code in a one to one mapping of that codes syntax tree
< 1739822877 436869 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry that second category was called terrestrial
> 1739822910 471844 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[076A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152115&oldid=152048 5* 03Buckets 5* (-2) 10
< 1739822914 530277 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the third category is telestial fastlisp which uses libraries that orchestrate the generation of terrestrial code. ideally these libraries will hide from you the fact that your code depends on subterranian code
< 1739822938 593540 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :then there is celestial fastlisp code which is any fastlisp code that does not depend on any terrestrial or telestial fastlisp code
< 1739823136 635406 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca JOIN #esolangs zzo38 :zzo38
> 1739823161 220719 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152116&oldid=152098 5* 03Buckets 5* (+19) 10
> 1739823192 889280 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152117&oldid=152116 5* 03Buckets 5* (-18) 10
< 1739823868 958581 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina JOIN #esolangs Lykaina :Lykaina Wolfe
< 1739824015 369964 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :i think i went a little too far in the current code for fungeball, defining every user-accessible command from a set of ~55 fixed commands
> 1739824167 457408 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152118&oldid=152093 5* 03Buckets 5* (+10) 10
> 1739824190 395184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152119&oldid=152094 5* 03Buckets 5* (+11) 10
< 1739824207 677032 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :only two of those used return values, and none have local arguments.
> 1739824209 693633 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07S1LK14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152120 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1754) 10Created page with "S1LK is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2022 about Having an Output Purely In Taste. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | Set || Sets the Next variable by the Next Number, example: Set blah 1, If you are Changing The taste
< 1739824281 537075 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Fun times.
< 1739824325 684597 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :they all have access to the same 4 tick-level and all thread-level and global-level variables
> 1739824589 82378 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Anthonykozar/Notes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152121&oldid=152112 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (+217) 10Added some languages and people.
< 1739824660 364232 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is how addition is defined: t_s(); b_t(); t_s(); a_t(); t_b(); t_at_add(); s_t();
< 1739824702 552056 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :i modified the code to make it fit on one line
< 1739824860 944596 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :t = stack.pop; b = t; t = stack.pop; a = t; t = b; t = t + at; stack.append(t);
< 1739824900 833859 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :i mean
< 1739824914 727676 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :t = stack.pop; bt = t; t = stack.pop; at = t; t = bt; t = t + at; stack.append(t);
< 1739825029 489706 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :is that javascript?
< 1739825061 568726 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, it's a generalization of python
< 1739825069 190066 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :with typos
< 1739825077 279994 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :and semicolons
< 1739825084 273415 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lykaina: Nice. Paraphrasing Bill Wurtz, "hey somebody could make a forth out of that".
< 1739825102 889040 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :my first forth in javascript had very similar code
< 1739825201 933338 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :i'm trying to merge forth and befunge 
< 1739825210 112277 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :eventually
> 1739825250 991105 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sleep.14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152122&oldid=152044 5* 03Buckets 5* (+127) 10
< 1739825304 410043 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: you named after the girl with the dragon tattoo?
< 1739825313 772874 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1739825320 126400 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :man som hatttar kvinnor
< 1739825327 106529 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i know every page of it
< 1739825331 24436 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ive read it more times than i can count
> 1739825362 956860 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sleep.14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152123&oldid=152122 5* 03Buckets 5* (+79) 10
< 1739825364 474065 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have read it via audio book multiple hundreds of times
< 1739825382 154975 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :all three books, i assume
< 1739825470 307173 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :or are there more now?
< 1739825501 736045 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ive read the second book a few dozen times and the third book a few dozen times
< 1739825511 252990 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the new books I used to own digitally and have read about 20 times
< 1739825535 466088 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :in every fanfiction of the girl with the dragon tattoo ever written lisebeth has a child with blomkvist
< 1739825545 815457 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :in the new books they essentially adopt a child together
< 1739825576 813018 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :apparently people view lisbeth very maternally
> 1739825954 453347 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sleep.14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152124&oldid=152123 5* 03Buckets 5* (+609) 10
> 1739826266 842919 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sleep.14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152125&oldid=152124 5* 03Buckets 5* (+159) 10
> 1739826388 583343 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sleep.14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152126&oldid=152125 5* 03Buckets 5* (+7) 10
> 1739826422 905064 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sleep.14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152127&oldid=152126 5* 03Buckets 5* (+7) 10
> 1739826461 44235 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sleep.14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152128&oldid=152127 5* 03Buckets 5* (+3) 10
< 1739828033 319597 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :27 of those 55 are not specific to befunge-93 or fungeball
< 1739828088 49858 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :so half had to do with grids and threading
< 1739828104 984893 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :*grids and/or threading
< 1739828243 733817 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :4 of those remaining are i/o
< 1739828490 177148 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lykaina: is this for making a hardware befunge interpreter?
< 1739828579 992710 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, i'm just over-complicating my code
< 1739828612 982485 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :but i am thinking of asm-like instructions
< 1739828687 429699 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :trying to see if i can make something forthy
< 1739828794 885359 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :from at most 36 immutable instructions 
< 1739828816 503755 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :i mean 52
< 1739828894 733641 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what size are the stack elements, what size if the two-dimensional befunge arena, and are you using the same ALU for the + builtin of befunge and for advancing the instruction pointer?
< 1739828979 614441 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :right now, i'm moving to a 1-d unidirectional generalization of the language
< 1739829009 160705 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unefunge control flow sucks so I hope you have something better for it
< 1739829044 489424 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's not a funge
< 1739829053 462149 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :at this point
< 1739829188 100160 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's becoming closer to a forth
< 1739829399 35156 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :(i'm not working on fungeball, but something it inspired me to work on)
< 1739829411 614380 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1739831402 950314 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so we got a couple interesting things
< 1739831412 531463 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :exhibit a: sh|sh>&2
< 1739831419 593320 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :exhibit b: nmcr(){ sh|sh>&2;};mcr17(){ if [ "$1" = f ] ;then (cat "$2";cat)|nmcr;elif [ "$1" = e ] ;then (echo "$2";cat)|nmcr;else nmcr;fi;};
< 1739831440 214012 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :exhibit b is for people who dont know how to preload some data into exhibit a
< 1739831454 546873 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you know the shell well all you need is exhibit a
< 1739831722 746422 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I realize the cat command is useless because I can call cat from the e option
< 1739831725 120371 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :mcr17(){ sh -e "$1"|sh>&2;};
< 1739832100 775383 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :eh this is a little nicer mcr17(){ if [ "$1" ] ;then sh -e "$1"|sh>&2;else sh|sh>&2;fi;};
< 1739832217 355298 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1739832828 207604 :molson_!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-F675-26ED-74E8-7509-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
< 1739832981 61328 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-EBD1-74EC-CFBE-4CD2-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1739834436 325530 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :mcr17(){ if [ "$1" ] ;then sh -e "$1"|sh|sh>&2;else sh|sh|sh>&2;fi;};
< 1739836287 600823 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :mcr17(){ (echo "$1";cat)|sh|sh|sh>&2;}; this one is superior to that one by far
> 1739836671 712655 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Anthonykozar/Notes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152129&oldid=152121 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (+69) 10More languages
< 1739837062 9148 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :About a discussion mentioned earlier, I think that "good ILs can easily/automatically be converted to and from a human-readable form" is better than "good ILs are human-readable".
< 1739837101 92273 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :a little bit of a bug was found fixed it tho mcr17(){ exec 3>&1;(echo "$1"; cat)|sh|sh|sh >&3 2>&1 |tee /dev/stderr;exec 3>&-;}
< 1739837167 962903 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that "the compiler should be able to emit tracing information that lets you debug the compiler and verify that the IL is correct" is something separate from that, though, but also helpful.
> 1739840800 487938 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152130&oldid=152107 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+348) 10
> 1739840831 875836 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152131&oldid=152130 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-25) 10
> 1739841279 38346 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152132&oldid=152131 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-4) 10
> 1739842610 692276 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152133 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+122) 10Created page with "{{stub}}  A Forth-inspired esolang created by [[User:Lykaina]] (that looks nothing like Forth).  Currently in alpha-stage."
< 1739842707 492585 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1739842723 248577 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152134&oldid=152119 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+11) 10/* A */
< 1739843007 446870 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :mcr17(){ exec 3>&1;(echo "$1"; cat)|sh|sh|sh >&3 2>&1 |tee >&2;exec 3>&-;} this one works on readonly filesystems
< 1739843189 701117 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, yeah, i'm making Afth
> 1739844549 121090 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Anthonykozar/Notes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152135&oldid=152129 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (+23) 10/* People who make interesting languages */ Added user TuxCrafting.
< 1739846188 813940 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, if a line equaling ':A+ sGsIg+S' is present then any time after that the line 'A+' is encountered, Afth will execute 'sGsIg+S', the addition command sequence.
< 1739846286 776803 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :words are two chars, and start with capital 'A'-'F'
< 1739846401 417299 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :words contain single lines, and words can not contain words
< 1739846550 576021 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :lines containing only '0'-'9' and 'a'-'f' put a hexadecimal number on the stack
< 1739846686 276818 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :j/J are the two "jump if tk is non-zero"
< 1739846718 852166 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :j is relative, J is absolute
< 1739846766 650655 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :basically a 'goto if' kinda thing
< 1739846785 939471 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1739846865 620300 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are 39 of these characters so far
< 1739847192 115769 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :goto line = '_nKsJ'
< 1739847230 382930 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :it will take a num from the stack and goto that line
< 1739847383 42689 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :so yeah, you have to define every word before it is used
< 1739847624 414597 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :564 possible words
< 1739847881 547752 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :next thing i'm adding is lines starting with '"', which puts printable ascii onto the stack
< 1739847961 821771 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1739848011 915814 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :where '"Hello' would add ['o','l','l','e','H'] to the top of the stack.
< 1739849387 663250 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :the two ifs are z (if t == 0 then tk = 1 else tk = 0) and Z (if t > 0 then tk = 1 else tk = 0)
< 1739849853 244984 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1739851506 442500 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina JOIN #esolangs Lykaina :Lykaina Wolfe
> 1739851672 69649 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Anthonykozar14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152136&oldid=90589 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (+325) 10Mentioning SCOOP and some of my other esolang ideas.  Added a list of subpages.
< 1739852332 928597 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina QUIT :Quit: Leaving
> 1739852583 306441 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Anthonykozar14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152137&oldid=152136 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (+76) 10Add full versions of acronyms and correct Aliba link in Subpages section.
> 1739853240 597094 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Anthonykozar/SCOOP History and Design Goals14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152138 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (+3283) 10Removing this information from the main SCOOP page.
> 1739853783 190530 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SCOOP14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152139&oldid=152105 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (-3243) 10Moving "History and Design Goals" and "Unused Ideas" sections to a new page under my user profile.
< 1739854480 556235 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in
< 1739854884 36311 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 JOIN #esolangs slavfox :slavfox
> 1739855185 360340 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Anthonykozar14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152140&oldid=152137 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (+348) 10Added links to esolang-related software that I've written.
< 1739856828 985681 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :now old versions of my code have stopped working
< 1739856834 136877 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :doesnt make any sense
< 1739856842 758624 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :now even >&2 doesnt work
< 1739856853 63927 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :>&2 has always worked so far
< 1739856892 988293 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Something must have changed in the environment.
< 1739857168 699082 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :thats not possible
< 1739857181 12822 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it happened on both my tablet and on my laptop
< 1739857185 151496 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :its back to eval I guess
< 1739857570 383252 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it doesnt seem possible that it worked in my shell for days and days and days and now it doesnt
< 1739857948 221392 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :teh only explanation I can think of is my kernel changed to disallow it
< 1739857964 433163 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :my chromebook might do an automatic apt update but my termux on my tablet certainly does not
> 1739858151 862878 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0710 114]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152141&oldid=144756 5* 03Corbin 5* (+13) 10It's a trivial BF substitution.
< 1739858354 482051 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've found a couple questionable proofs of Turing-completeness via Cook's Rule 110. Do we have a systematic way of talking about these?
< 1739858466 345679 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :A good example is Foreach. I can't immediately tell whether Foreach is TC just from its specification, and it's clear that Foreach is fairly expressive. The given proof shows that Foreach can iterate Rule 110.
< 1739858530 108266 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/lgRPE3a0/sdfaosdfij
< 1739858532 154473 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But merely iterating Rule 110 isn't TC. What's TC is iterating Rule 110 until an arbitrary chosen effect occurs, and that has to be done relative to a specific fixed background, IIRC.
< 1739858534 91860 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :mabye this
< 1739858581 558514 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/YDkixojZ/sdfsdfd
< 1739858619 446087 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/uATyUoK7/sdfasddgsdg
< 1739861249 303727 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I made up a file format for compact case-folding tables (for character sets of 256 characters): 0x00 to 0x7F means a identity run with length 1 to 127. 0x80 to 0xBF means a difference run with length 1 to 64; it is followed by one more byte specifying what the difference is. 0xC0 to 0xFF means a manual run of length 1 to 64; it is followed by that many bytes of data.
< 1739861307 60274 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina JOIN #esolangs Lykaina :Lykaina Wolfe
< 1739862195 13591 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://lykaina.sdf.org/afth/helloworld.afth.txt
< 1739862610 62867 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1739862754 768325 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok so
< 1739862775 384674 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :>&2 is broken and allegedly never worked according to this timeline
< 1739862779 139851 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs : >&2
< 1739862788 44565 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and so the fallback is mcr17(){ (echo "$1"; cat)|sh|sh|sh;};
< 1739862800 383972 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :this can still print to stdout just fine
< 1739862820 346969 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you want to launch a graphical program say vi the current solution is echo echo xterm vi
< 1739862829 792242 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you dont have xterm then dtach
< 1739862841 827333 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :or some otehr terminal multiplexer like tmux
< 1739862850 230594 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :you may not like it but there it is
> 1739866322 392263 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nice14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152142&oldid=136438 5* 03PoptartPlungerBoi 5* (+75) 10/* Variables */
> 1739869322 766595 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03PoptartPlungerBoi 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:Nice 99bottles program.PNG10]]"
> 1739869452 477623 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nice14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152144&oldid=152142 5* 03PoptartPlungerBoi 5* (+72) 10
< 1739869998 895374 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1739873087 586397 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Krolkrol14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152145 5* 03Krolkrol 5* (+40) 10Created page with "Edit this page if you want to talk to me"
< 1739874419 634457 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1739874459 414845 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :does any of you use G'MIC in command or library form? ideally can you tell me the main advantages and drawbacks compared to ImageMagick and MagickWand?
< 1739874571 557312 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm what's that... gimmick?
< 1739874595 234366 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I can google, no worries)
< 1739874617 84398 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :as in https://gmic.eu/ vs https://imagemagick.org/ , I'm mostly familiar with the latter
< 1739874639 540222 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had somehow not even heard of the former.
< 1739874720 435844 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(It is /relatively/ new with 8 years vs. 34 for IM)
< 1739874761 463109 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :then why did they build it to apparently inherit the bad parts of ImageMagick?
< 1739874793 960034 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well I don't know for sure yet, I'm still trying to read the manuals, maybe it doesn't really inherit all the bad parts
< 1739874981 422200 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1739875072 437098 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it does the same pipeline of filters thing... is that one of the bad parts?
< 1739875321 636576 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1739875405 430398 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, the bad part seems to be the syntax, where I can't just give a literal filename to ImageMagick without it trying to interpret my string as a dwim thing with complicated syntax that may have types and filters and coordinates and expressions and may incidentally also be a filename if I'm lucky
< 1739875425 102794 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but maybe G'MIC has some way around this, and I just didn't get to that part yet in the docs
< 1739875697 541229 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think if you want to get ImageMagick or even MagickWand to open an arbitrary file then you have to do the open call yourself and then pass the file descriptor number in %d format inside a magic string that also mentions the image type just to make sure that loading the file can't cause arbitrary side effects.
< 1739875790 977722 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://gmic.eu/reference/input.html  looks like the  :filename syntax fragment doesn't overlap with the rest
< 1739875824 196256 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(unless you think that http:// is a valid part of a file name)
< 1739875877 157311 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But that's documentation. I'd wonder whether https:// and maybe file:// are supported too
> 1739876859 973161 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152146&oldid=151538 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+0) 10
< 1739876958 207834 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1739880525 858453 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1739880560 123655 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: to prove a language TC via rule 110 you need to initialise the rule 110 interpreter with a pattern consisting of an infinite repeating pattern, then a fixed section, then a different infinitely repeating pattern
< 1739880592 196296 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :often it is possible to do this lazily, i.e. appending a particular pattern to each side every n cycles (I forget the value of n but it's a constant)
< 1739880604 573670 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1739880648 676858 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, usually if a language can do rule 110 it can do other cellular automata too, and if it can take more than three inputs you can use one that's TC starting from a finitely initialised tape
< 1739880667 448401 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(by "more than three inputs" I mean calculating the value of a cell based on more than three cells above it)
< 1739880689 604386 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :not sure of the minimum number of inputs needed, but most such esolangs can do arbitrarily many
< 1739880792 837032 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :as for why rule 110 needs the infinitely repeating background, it's definitely needed on one side because the proof implements sequential tag (thus the repeating pattern is an encoding of a cyclic tag program as sequential tag), I am not sure whether it's absolutely necessary on the other or whether that's just done for convenience
> 1739881906 793494 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Anulick 5*  10New user account
< 1739883251 854136 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://lykaina.sdf.org/afth/helloworld.afth.txt
< 1739883255 511739 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :oops
> 1739884152 92840 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152147&oldid=152133 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+116) 10Adding a Hello World example.
> 1739884474 922439 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Free Esolang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152148&oldid=151539 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+143) 10
> 1739885125 717326 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152149&oldid=152147 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+180) 10Adding "Core Instructions" section. (I need to fill it in)
> 1739885732 785508 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152150&oldid=151993 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+63) 10changed syntax slightly
> 1739885863 269656 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152151&oldid=152150 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (-44) 10/* Pointer manipulation */
> 1739885876 27983 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152152&oldid=152151 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (-2) 10/* Pointer manipulation */
> 1739886226 768451 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152153&oldid=152149 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+585) 10/* Core Instructions */ saving incomplete table (WIP)
> 1739887209 668001 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152154&oldid=152152 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+166) 10Added implementation
> 1739887701 10490 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152155&oldid=152153 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+780) 10/* Core Instructions */ got Chars and Names down, next is Descriptions...
< 1739889804 633941 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
> 1739889926 895425 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152156&oldid=152155 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+584) 10/* Core Instructions */ finished typing core instructions
< 1739890294 860556 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
> 1739890544 428710 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152157&oldid=152156 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+154) 10/* Core Instructions */ updating to match planned change
> 1739892340 849032 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152158&oldid=152157 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+72) 10/* Core Instructions */ code change opened up 'a'-'f' and 'A'-'F'
> 1739893445 272739 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152159&oldid=152154 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+15) 10Updated Cat
< 1739893702 757403 :tromp!~textual@2a02:a210:cba:8500:de2:dd98:e9b0:1ec7 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1739893952 41687 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152160&oldid=152158 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+0) 10/* Examples */ fixed the Hello World example.
> 1739894058 732902 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152161&oldid=152132 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+86) 10
> 1739894120 163139 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152162&oldid=152161 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1) 10
> 1739894762 632872 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Free Esolang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152163&oldid=152148 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+112) 10
< 1739894774 949777 :dawids!~dawids@109.76.255.58 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
> 1739894783 211393 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Free Esolang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152164&oldid=152163 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10
< 1739895040 480353 :dawids!~dawids@109.76.255.58 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1739895083 251361 :Everything!~Everythin@static.208.206.21.65.clients.your-server.de JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
< 1739896606 208306 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1739898885 536060 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1739899776 749789 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152165&oldid=152160 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+522) 10Adding table for "Predefined Words" and fixing a typo elsewhere.
> 1739901458 259175 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152166&oldid=152165 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+101) 10/* Examples */ Added "Add Two Numbers"
< 1739902265 959006 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1739902420 883541 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Okay, that makes sense. What about halting conditions? Rule 110 is total, so I guess that we need to inspect the latest cells to know when to halt?
> 1739902609 453888 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152167&oldid=152090 5* 03Dan422442 5* (+55) 10Introducing myself
> 1739902626 203738 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Quinary Bueue14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152168&oldid=124805 5* 03Dan422442 5* (-2) 10It has been Implemented
< 1739902730 380726 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: right – the halt condition of the rule 110 proof is basically a pattern of repeating stripes that clearly don't interact with each other
< 1739902752 149141 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that is hard to detect from inside a rule 110 simulator unless it's pretty high-level
> 1739903047 95629 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152169&oldid=152166 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+170) 10/* Core Instructions */ added 'e' and 'E'
< 1739903121 778867 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually, I think it might simplify down to "the same" state appearing twice (translated but otherwise identical) which is quite easy to objectively define
< 1739903127 633942 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but not necessarily easy to detect
> 1739903355 792714 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Varia14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152170 5* 03 5* (+521) 10Threw the framework together
> 1739903629 159325 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152171&oldid=152169 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+12) 10/* Predefined Words */ clarifying something
> 1739903881 675893 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152172&oldid=152171 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+103) 10/* Predefined Words */
> 1739903912 442901 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152173&oldid=152172 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+0) 10/* Add Two Numbers */
> 1739904083 184957 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152174&oldid=152173 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+0) 10/* Predefined Words */
< 1739904277 62356 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1739904319 978786 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1739904726 464189 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :i decided to be nice and add predefined words to Afth
< 1739904750 22104 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :literally I/O and basic math
< 1739904908 423697 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know it's a Forth-like under the hood, but I like to make it weird.
< 1739905159 762475 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :i already have 94 possible variables
< 1739905184 26227 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :but they have to be initialized in order to be used
< 1739905822 41100 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :the goal is to be able to define most words in a Forth-like using (currently) 39 core&math commands and 10 extra&io commands
< 1739905923 695497 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :i have 7 line-level vars, 4 of which are temporary space.
< 1739906012 428233 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :2 of the latter could probably easily be removed
< 1739906664 142809 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs lisbeths :lisbeths
< 1739906669 241130 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :the sequence _^<<^<<^< is equivalent to t=42
< 1739906716 165719 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi lisbeths
< 1739906736 244174 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :hello
< 1739906767 900879 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :i just typed a bunch of stuff about Afth
< 1739906790 678201 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :check log if you wanna see
< 1739906813 755780 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :not everything is on the wiki yet
< 1739907122 855102 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :you seemed like you might be interested in Afth, as it is a Forth-like at its core.
< 1739907233 387694 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is there a command with 7z or tar or other programs to specify a different path and name inside of the created archive file than the actual paths and names in the system?
< 1739907436 266714 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, is it possible to tell tar to store invalid user IDs, that it will only be able to extract the files if you do not use the user IDs in the archive file?
< 1739908129 370601 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lykaina: what is afth
< 1739908352 403926 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :my forth-like esolang
< 1739908972 262167 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lykaina: yeah tell me about it
< 1739909048 177204 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: GNU tar supports a --transform option that can regex-substitute the filenames (the input of the regex is the file's location on disk and the output is the pathname stored in the archive)
< 1739909133 136743 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in theory you could use that to give files completely arbitrary names by adding them one at a time, although it's likely for most uses that a regex will be sufficient to map the names of multiple files at once
< 1739909198 293890 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :here's an online copy of the documentation: https://www.gnu.org/software/tar/manual/html_section/transform.html
< 1739909202 86326 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, after asking the question I found that, but do not find the way to specify the mapping for each name individually, in a file that also specifies the list of which files to be included in the archive.
< 1739909281 64426 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: so tar can append to an archive, so I think you just create an archive with one file and the name you want for it, then add another file using another regex, etc.
< 1739909307 783607 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although you'd probably want a wrapper script to automate that process
< 1739909431 6206 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, that makes sense, too. Do you know if it can be made that user/group IDs can be invalid so that --same-owner will not work but --no-same-owner will work?
< 1739909499 903788 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think so, because there are no truly invalid user/group IDs
< 1739909537 906154 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :65534 is frequently used as a sentinel for an invalid user/group ID but nothing technically prevents files being owned by that ID
< 1739909605 436162 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean if the data is e.g. not a valid octal number and the user name is blank, what will tar (both GNU and other implementations) do in such a case?
> 1739909685 823438 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[071114]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152175&oldid=150640 5* 03Buckets 5* (+4) 10
< 1739909925 431492 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: i gotta go out and do some shopping, ttyl
< 1739910628 457624 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: tar: Archive contains ‘000064A’ where numeric mode_t value expected
< 1739910660 522181 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and tar tvf displays that mode as -rwsrwsrwt
< 1739910666 903143 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I guess that's -1
< 1739910788 966851 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean the user ID, not the mode.
< 1739910917 855686 :Everything!~Everythin@static.208.206.21.65.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1739911029 942929 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the numeric id is displayed as 4294967295 then but maps to 0 when unpacking as root
< 1739911032 929203 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION shrugs

< 1739911124 364484 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, maybe. maybe it just didn't use the numeric id for this. in any case, this is easy to test... the checksum field is the only protection against these shenanigans and it's just a sum.
< 1739911246 862727 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I think it would make more sense if invalid data in the user ID and/or user name fields resulted in an error message if --same-owner is specified but is silently ignored if --no-same-owner is specified; similar should apply to other fields, if you specify switches to override them then they will be ignored and don't care if it is valid. Unfortunately, it does not work like that.)
< 1739911347 601139 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually I guess 65535 may be an invalid value, as it's the return value on error from many uid/gid functions (well, -1 but it's traditionally a 16-bit return)
< 1739911354 990928 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that would explain why 65534 was used as the sentinel
> 1739911472 236088 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Varia14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152176&oldid=152170 5* 03 5* (+124) 10
> 1739912087 623484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07XXXoYYY14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152177 5* 03Dtp09 5* (+5449) 10page creation
> 1739912120 121675 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Dtp0914]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152178&oldid=128625 5* 03Dtp09 5* (+14) 10/* esolangs i made */
> 1739912217 973771 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152179&oldid=152117 5* 03Buckets 5* (+22) 10
> 1739912248 752992 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152180&oldid=152179 5* 03Buckets 5* (-22) 10
< 1739912533 488657 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: in 7z not directly. 7z can rename files in an existing archive, and you can give multiple pairs of names to rename. but I don't think it supports adding files with a different name in one pass. 
< 1739912824 266741 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait, a 16-bit return? I'll have to look this up, I assumed the user ID was always given as an int in the kernel interfaces, it's just that its value was restricted to 16 bits on old systems and that's what the file system represented
< 1739913077 458428 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I kind-of assumed that int was 16-bit at the time
< 1739913080 672671 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` set -e; >uid_size.c echo $'#include \n#include \n#include \n''int main(int ac, char *av[]) { printf("sizeof=%d, signed=%d,\n", (int)sizeof(uid_t), (int)(uid_t)-1); return 0; }'; gcc -Wall -O -o uid_size uid_size.c; ./uid_size
< 1739913082 513778 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :sizeof=4, signed=-1,
< 1739913082 951285 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I guess it was 32 in early UNIX
< 1739913099 988028 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, it's possible that it was 16-bit in very early unix, sure
< 1739913628 763602 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :didn't BCPL use 32 bits for everything? although Unix may have been written in C from the start
< 1739913983 494211 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm a) questioning myself but b) wondering why C even allows 16-bit int – if Unix didn't use 16-bit int early on then I'd expect C to require it as 32-bit
< 1739914024 693950 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although it was a very long time after C was created before systems with short, int, and long all different became commonplace (and long is still 32 bits on Windows!)
< 1739914028 780423 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm hazy about ancient unix history. as far as I understand, unix was originally written in a machine language, then later rewritten into C. that was pre-ANSI C so function arguments and return values were promoted to at least int sized, but I think that was 16-bit int.
< 1739914046 842240 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it could have been that int was always ambiguous, and short and long disambiguated
< 1739914094 615757 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"In UNIX V6 the getuid() call returned (euid << 8) + uid." – lots of manual pages
< 1739914100 85262 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :8!
< 1739914128 714059 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :♥
< 1739914130 619838 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night
< 1739914132 682473 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :getuid(2) says that on my current computer
< 1739914134 746173 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :night APic
< 1739914172 507857 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think C was designed to be able to work on contemporary machines of different architecutres from the start, which is why short and int were separate types even if they're normally both 16 bits wide. 
< 1739914232 930271 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :aha – BCPL had all types the same width, but that was originally 16-bit
< 1739914242 26880 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :meaning that you were limited to 64KiB of memory because pointers were 16-bit too
< 1739914273 969858 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, 128KiB
< 1739914290 437906 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because if everything is 16-bit the pointers only need 16-bit of granularity
< 1739914383 85151 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I assume that's just for data, and code can be in a separate area
< 1739914506 885983 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that view is compatible with how BCPL was defined
< 1739914512 734062 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although I'm not sure whether or not it did that in practice
< 1739914536 293675 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :C for 16-bit x86 works similarly, a pointer is treated as a pointer to code or data depending on what you do with it
< 1739914701 8223 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :x86 supports ds != ss, but I'm not sure typical C implementations handle that combination
< 1739914769 350811 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you could use a separate spill stack (in ss) and automatic variable stack (in ds), but that means two stack pointers so you're tying up one extra register, and that's fairly painful on 16-bit x86 which doesn't have very many of them
< 1739914772 180156 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Borland C supports like six or seven different "memory models" for x86_16 DOS that differ in these details, 
< 1739914786 280302 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm only aware of four
< 1739914795 562316 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait, no, five
< 1739914816 338559 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it also lets you override this locally by declaring a pointer as near or far or huge or segment, and has a nonstandard operator spelled :> for combining a segment with a near pointer to get a far pointer
< 1739914837 675 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :16-bit versus 32-bit for code pointer and for data pointer (4 combinations), plus if they're both 32-bit, whether objects are allowed to cross 16-bit boundaries or not
< 1739914876 230193 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe you can do that even if the code pointers are 16-bit, that would make 6 combinations
< 1739914887 340418 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but yes, there are near/far/huge overrides
< 1739914913 360301 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, I remembered the extra one! it's 16-bit code and 16-bit data in the same segment
< 1739914916 666666 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, I think the extra combination is about which segments are equal when everything is 16-bit
< 1739914927 474649 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, that'
< 1739914929 242888 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that
< 1739914998 140501 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, my client has timestamped my "oh," message as 21:42 and your "no," message as 21:41, but displayed my message before yours causing the timestamps to be out of order (and the logs agree that my message was first)
< 1739915009 353842 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm assuming this is some sort of timestamping bug
> 1739916115 580973 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152181&oldid=152102 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+178) 10
> 1739916183 396202 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152182&oldid=152077 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+13) 10
> 1739916193 25355 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152183&oldid=152182 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-13) 10
< 1739916821 200841 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
> 1739916849 739271 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152184&oldid=152162 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+404) 10
< 1739917598 910187 :tromp!~textual@2a02:a210:cba:8500:de2:dd98:e9b0:1ec7 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1739917798 830977 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152185&oldid=152134 5* 03H33T33 5* (+13) 10
< 1739919307 945213 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1739920144 961580 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152186&oldid=152118 5* 03Buckets 5* (+17) 10
> 1739920156 227559 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152187&oldid=152185 5* 03Buckets 5* (+18) 10
> 1739920203 887962 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152188 5* 03Buckets 5* (+705) 10Created page with " (Not .) Is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2021. {| class="wikitable" ! Commands !! Instructions |- |  || +3. |- | . || -3 |- | (Line feed) || Prints the current number in ASCII. |- |  || Turn to the next page. |- |  || Turn to the Previous page
> 1739920225 949789 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152189&oldid=152186 5* 03Buckets 5* (+0) 10
> 1739922899 448510 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152190&oldid=152174 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+391) 10Updated to current.
> 1739925549 416720 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152191&oldid=152181 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+571) 10/* How to make lowercase */
> 1739925774 763970 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152192&oldid=152190 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+1346) 10Added to beginning.
< 1739926161 453753 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :How does https://esolangs.org/wiki/Afth look so far?
> 1739926260 280379 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07H33T3314]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152193 5* 03H33T33 5* (+301) 10Created page with "=[[User:H33T33]]= I am absolutely obsessed with programming, specifically game development. Though I dabble in other things, like esolang development.  ==Experience== * Python * C * Java * A handful of other smaller languages I can't be bothered to list right now  ==Langua
> 1739926283 64761 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07H33T3314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152194&oldid=152193 5* 03H33T33 5* (-18) 10
> 1739926442 136350 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07H33T3314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152195&oldid=152194 5* 03H33T33 5* (-283) 10Blanked the page
> 1739926509 670345 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:H33T3314]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152196 5* 03H33T33 5* (+283) 10Created page with "I am absolutely obsessed with programming, specifically game development. Though I dabble in other things, like esolang development.  ==Experience== * Python * C * Java * A handful of other smaller languages I can't be bothered to list right now  ==Languages Developed
> 1739926559 878371 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152197&oldid=151996 5* 03H33T33 5* (-25) 10
> 1739926809 351426 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152198&oldid=152197 5* 03H33T33 5* (-22) 10
< 1739926998 871676 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :Afth is supposed to mean "Something from the Aft" and is meant as a euphemism for "Solid Bodily Excrement"
< 1739927068 36946 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, the opposite of Forth
< 1739927478 502295 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lykaina: Do you have a second stack?
< 1739927500 281311 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :not really
< 1739927603 171808 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :should I?
< 1739927626 10703 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, what do you think of Turing-completeness? A one-stack pushdown automaton can't simulate a Turing machine.
< 1739927678 824855 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's good arguments both ways. Cammy can be simulated by a one-stack pushdown automaton, but its computational class is absurdly large for something not TC.
< 1739927718 449361 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have variables
< 1739927733 64762 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But yeah, the typical Forth has two stacks. There's a call-return stack, sometimes just called the R stack, and words like >r and r> for moving to/from it.
< 1739927796 751810 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :didn't know that
< 1739927817 758149 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hm, that might work. Normally we think of the second stack as being indefinite in size, while only finitely many variables are possible. But that's merely a convention because we want to map variables to registers in some traditions; obviously the number of variables is very large and also the size of the stack is limited.
< 1739927854 215142 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1739927858 249850 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :No worries! Most Forth users don't have to worry about the second stack because they have pick-and-roll functionality: there are insanely powerful words like pick or roll which allow the user to shuffle the entire stack.
< 1739927912 600877 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But in this channel you'll find lots of folks who are either using ANS FORTH for some reason, or are writing Forth for embedded platforms where roll'ing the stack would be too expensive to offer as a feature.
> 1739927920 321166 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Burro14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152199&oldid=140997 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (+7) 10/* Constructing Conditionals */ Clarifying some sentences.
< 1739927974 730345 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :i'll change what's r,R means and put the original meaning on d,D
< 1739928017 646863 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :make r,R the access to the R stack
< 1739928025 237032 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, don't worry about keeping with tradition. Forth calls the second stack R because it's used for return addresses; it's the standard call stack in C-style memory layouts.
< 1739928051 650043 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :You could just as well call it H since it's often a hardware-supported stack, or C because it's used for calls (or used like in C), etc.
< 1739928087 809232 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :i'll have to make my spreadsheet two pages then...
< 1739928105 856425 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :it will be c,C
< 1739928157 297640 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :c: t = cstack.pop()
< 1739928182 406266 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :C: cstack.append(t)
< 1739928215 163535 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, you can choose to make the second stack safe! In a typical ANS FORTH, the user has to assume that they do not control the second stack; the runtime will also push and pop stuff to it, and there are rules about when it's safe to use.
< 1739928362 583543 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :hold on...
< 1739928448 972827 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1739928536 441550 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152200&oldid=152192 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+94) 10/* Core Instructions */ adding c and C.
< 1739929528 772253 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :any other things i'm missing?
> 1739929550 515527 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:MoreMathRPN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152201&oldid=151264 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+610) 10/* Questions */
< 1739929641 884205 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh...have to add sample var and word declarations 
< 1739929652 303824 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :i mean, to the wiki
> 1739930133 498592 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152202&oldid=152200 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+205) 10/* Syntax */
< 1739931466 202985 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are only 94^2 possible single-cell variables
< 1739931603 704410 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :and 52*94^2 possible words
< 1739931777 44745 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :26*94^4 < 2^31
< 1739932173 787041 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :the amount of non-space printable ascii chars is 94. 26*94+26*94^2+26*94^3+26*94^4 is still less than 2^31
< 1739932357 297850 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :means, in a future version, i can have 2-5 char word names and 1-4 char var names
< 1739932464 759773 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :better make a quick change to support this future
> 1739932499 254043 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152203&oldid=152202 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+8) 10/* Words */
> 1739932547 465261 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152204&oldid=152203 5* 03Lykaina 5* (-4) 10/* Initial Letters Table */
< 1739935393 287808 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Quit: Leaving
> 1739939710 25513 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Anthonykozar/Notes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152205&oldid=152135 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (+125) 10Added Burro and Cabra.
< 1739942273 671697 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :made the change to 2-5 char word names and 1-4 char var names
< 1739942300 236134 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :but not in wiki
< 1739942800 483659 :safinaskar!~quassel@212.73.77.104 JOIN #esolangs * :,,,
< 1739942854 760354 :safinaskar!~quassel@212.73.77.104 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi. i want to add austral (it is non-esoteric, but little known programming lanuage) to some online playground. is there some online playground, such that i can very easily add language to it?
< 1739942886 333545 :safinaskar!~quassel@212.73.77.104 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i looked at godbolt, but it requires to write syntax for monaco editor first, i don't want to do this
< 1739942919 772101 :safinaskar!~quassel@212.73.77.104 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i also looked at tio.run , but it seems admin disappeared long time ago and adding new languages is not possible
> 1739942960 129051 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152206&oldid=152204 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+7) 10Updated to current.
< 1739943103 197605 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :Afth is only partly esoteric at this point.
< 1739943255 475597 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :The part that, in my mind, qualifies it as esoteric is the Core Instructions
< 1739944168 150982 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs lisbeths :lisbeths
< 1739944296 76631 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi lisbeths
< 1739944450 94932 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: How does https://esolangs.org/wiki/Afth look so far?
< 1739946012 617747 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Excess Flood
< 1739946181 875792 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1739946258 618500 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Excess Flood
< 1739947357 368444 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lykaina: it looks like a pretty normal forth upon brief glance
< 1739947371 611252 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lykaina: what are your goals with it?
< 1739947488 322514 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1739949547 202458 :safinaskar!~quassel@212.73.77.104 PART #esolangs :https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.
< 1739952060 154326 :tromp!~textual@2a02:a210:cba:8500:593d:9801:ba8:3982 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1739952295 5417 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :safinaskar: maybe look at https://tio.run/ , it supports tons of languages, esoteric and not
< 1739952309 253557 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, you already looked at it
< 1739953864 559256 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lykaina: I wouldn't bother with a second stack. Just stacks without random access are inconvenient to use. If you want to be minimalist but powerful I'd just add a random-access data array of words outside the stack, and add three primitives: load word from address, store word to address, and sbrk.
< 1739954039 209362 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1739954181 911235 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think forths traditionally have something like that, with a funny naming confusion because they call the random-access load primitive @ and the random-access store primitive ! whereas ML uses ! for random-access load
< 1739954223 583862 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1739957909 349736 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am really curious about forths that use registers
< 1739959147 821416 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator QUIT :Quit: Blame iczero something happened
< 1739959194 870698 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid QUIT :Quit: iovoid has quit!
< 1739959259 173974 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator JOIN #esolangs Bowserinator :No VPS :(
< 1739959289 268327 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid JOIN #esolangs iovoid :; NSID: 70 6f 6c 61 72 69 73 ("polaris")
< 1739961680 634302 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@37.191.60.209 JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1739961826 328777 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeth: I think some forths have a few global variables to simplify the syntax of simple counter for-loops, so there's a loop builtin that puts the count in one global variable and maybe another that puts them in a second global variable. does that count as registers? alternately GML has lambda calculus style lexically local variables, which you
< 1739961826 829424 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esolangs :could implement with a register stack (separate from the forth/postscript data stack), does that count?
< 1739961853 831913 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm no, you couldn't implement it with a register stack because there are first-class closures
< 1739961868 780512 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but you could count those locals as registers
< 1739962138 660342 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you could have local variables with closures that are closed by reference to the stack only so they can't be called after the parent stack frame ends, and then you could implement these as register stack. I am considering that for the columns esolang, though I haven't really figured out how functions and control structures should work so it
< 1739962139 160655 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esolangs :might not actually use these.
< 1739965920 413550 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator QUIT :Quit: Blame iczero something happened
< 1739965974 61072 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator JOIN #esolangs Bowserinator :No VPS :(
< 1739967096 417004 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@37.191.60.209 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1739970088 643849 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2603:6011:34f:f7c3:d25:bd8:56f9:4af6 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] AnthonyKozar
< 1739970183 663770 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2603:6011:34f:f7c3:d25:bd8:56f9:4af6 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1739970254 633642 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2603:6011:34f:f7c3:d25:bd8:56f9:4af6 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] AnthonyKozar
< 1739970472 932174 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2603:6011:34f:f7c3:d25:bd8:56f9:4af6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :RFC: SCOOP (Single-Character Object-Oriented Programming) is a pure, classless, object-oriented esolang using the full Unicode character set where all commands and identifiers/names are a single character.
< 1739970590 364816 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2603:6011:34f:f7c3:d25:bd8:56f9:4af6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hello! I recently added my new esolang, SCOOP, to the wiki and I am looking for some feedback if anyone has the interest/time to take a look.
< 1739970812 37979 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2603:6011:34f:f7c3:d25:bd8:56f9:4af6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm interested to know if there are any ambiguities or problems with the syntax or semantics. General feedback is also appreciated. Thanks! :)
< 1739971207 985007 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1739971455 423427 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2603:6011:34f:f7c3:d25:bd8:56f9:4af6 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1739971965 964458 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Braces14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152207&oldid=112463 5* 03Krolkrol 5* (+1482) 10
> 1739972072 997701 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Braces14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152208&oldid=152207 5* 03Krolkrol 5* (+27) 10
> 1739972158 962270 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Aadenboy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152209&oldid=152113 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+49) 10
< 1739972557 634109 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2603:6011:34f:f7c3:d25:bd8:56f9:4af6 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] AnthonyKozar
< 1739972944 112276 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2603:6011:34f:f7c3:d25:bd8:56f9:4af6 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1739973420 740830 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1739974669 591330 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Write error: Connection reset by peer
< 1739974794 83626 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
< 1739974889 903546 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :hello
< 1739975288 633933 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2603:6011:34f:f7c3:d25:bd8:56f9:4af6 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] AnthonyKozar
< 1739975444 226696 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2603:6011:34f:f7c3:d25:bd8:56f9:4af6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hello, lisbeths.
< 1739976165 745962 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2603:6011:34f:f7c3:d25:bd8:56f9:4af6 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1739976591 927494 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1739979957 779843 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi
< 1739979963 495734 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :just woke up
> 1739981052 298591 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5*  10New user account
< 1739981074 775925 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :changing c,C to t,T and using b,B,c,C,d,D for a large random-access array and its pointer in next edit
> 1739981322 465804 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152210&oldid=152167 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+89) 10/* Introductions */
< 1739981438 446264 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :also e,E to m,M
< 1739981488 508112 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :so i have e,E available for the array as well if needed
< 1739981997 163777 :roper!~s7@91.126.186.100 JOIN #esolangs roper :ro
< 1739982142 633834 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1739982317 865519 :dawids_!~dawids@109.76.4.12 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1739982426 846419 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Celebrate Chaoflux! Hail Diskordiæ!   😇
< 1739982514 362222 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1739982578 99087 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152211&oldid=152206 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+22) 10freeing up core instruction letters c,C,e,E and reassigning them to t,T,m,M.
< 1739983084 270817 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1739983099 63934 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1739983140 633572 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1739983149 596170 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :AnthonyKozar: re SCOOP this seems interesting and I don't yet understand the consequences of all this specification.  First question, I don't understand the description of the syntax.
< 1739983153 660727 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :In particular, if you have an object definition strating with colon, then the colon is followed by a name, then some items in between, and finally there's one of □#" at the end.  Of the following, what items can be in between?
< 1739983158 69575 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(A) Member initializers, which is just an ordinary character that means to copy the member from the parent object to this object. (B) Method definitions. (C) Nested object definitions starting with colon (where the nested object initializes a member in the parent object). (D) Assignment statements.
< 1739983163 802308 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(E) Method call statements. (F) Assignment statements. (G) Ordinary characters that become a character of the string if this defines a string object, or give the numeric value if this is a number object.
< 1739983168 50981 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :How do you disambiguate between A and G?  Also which of A to G can you have in the body of a method definition?
< 1739983173 208586 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Second question, do I understand it right that there's always just the members of one object in scope, so in any statement like ←x or ←x.ym or ←x▷ymz or ⏎x , x and y and z are members in that one object but m isn't, and in a nested :xy□ definition too x will be created as a member named x in that one object and y will be copied from the
< 1739983173 697849 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :member y in that one object?
< 1739983211 782310 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And you can't directly access values from the parent object, except through an (A) style member initializer, right?
< 1739983385 406023 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lykaina: what do those letters mean, the uppercase and the lowercase?
< 1739983466 351475 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :they are the chars assigned to "Core Instructions".
< 1739983506 277403 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :look at table in wiki page
< 1739983633 61811 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :DUP is 'sSS'
< 1739983647 482423 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :as an example
< 1739983750 180691 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lykiana: I don't see b,B,c,C,d,D there\
< 1739983779 454003 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :i haven't programmed them yet
< 1739983801 401739 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :they will be
> 1739983819 344549 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bitchanger Busy beaver14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152212 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+646) 10Created page with "== Confirmed optimal == These are confirmed to be the best for lengths 1-15  {| class="wikitable" |- ! length !! Time !! Program |- | 1 || 1 || } |- | 2 || 2 || }} |- | 3 || 3 || }}} |- | 4 || 4 || }}}} |- | 5 || 5 || }}}}} |- | 6 || 8 || }}<[<] |- | 7 
< 1739984099 191000 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :b,B,c,C,d,D,e,E are currently reserved for what i am currently programming, the array of 16384 signed 32-bit ints.
< 1739985060 767583 :dawids_!~dawids@109.76.4.12 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
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< 1739988075 977185 :dawids_!~dawids@109.76.4.12 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1739988090 105912 :dawids_!~dawids@109.76.4.12 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1739988145 632719 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2600:1009:b05d:91bf:0:b:1906:2b01 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] AnthonyKozar
< 1739988479 600038 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2600:1009:b05d:91bf:0:b:1906:2b01 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: Thanks very much for taking a look at SCOOP. Sounds like I need to clarify some of my descriptions and/or give more detailed examples.
< 1739988746 486592 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :AnthonyKozar: I have many thoughts, having implemented similar languages. For starters, do you have a concept of verb or selector? In languages like Smalltalk, Self, Python, Ruby, or E, it is possible for an object to define a default behavior for messages when none of its selectors/verbs match.
< 1739988854 627408 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2600:1009:b05d:91bf:0:b:1906:2b01 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1739988864 232006 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Along similar lines, is there a default verb/selector which indicates a function-like behavior? For example, in Python, that attribute is ".__call__"; in E, it's the verb "run".
< 1739988872 567993 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...Well, okay.
< 1739989363 448055 :roper!~s7@91.126.186.100 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1739989695 485807 :roper!~s7@91.126.186.100 JOIN #esolangs roper :ro
< 1739989906 641987 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2600:1009:b05d:91bf:0:b:1906:2b01 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] AnthonyKozar
< 1739989935 574124 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2600:1009:b05d:91bf:0:b:1906:2b01 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Re: your first question, which items can come between the identifier and the final delimiter (the "content") depends upon the delimiter. If the delimiter is □, then only a list of object members (your A) can be in the content. If the delimiter is " or #, then only G.  If the delimiter is ƒ, 𝑓, or ✆, then the content is B (a method or
< 1739989936 75156 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2600:1009:b05d:91bf:0:b:1906:2b01 PRIVMSG #esolangs :callback definition) which can include any combination of (B) (nested) Method definitions. (C) Nested object definitions starting with colon (but they do not define an object immediately!). (D) Assignment statements, (E) Method call statements, or member access  statements. I.e. the content of a method definition is just a code string but the
< 1739989936 574646 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2600:1009:b05d:91bf:0:b:1906:2b01 PRIVMSG #esolangs :instructions in the definition are not evaluated (and don't have to be parsed completely) until the method is called.
< 1739990024 552562 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2600:1009:b05d:91bf:0:b:1906:2b01 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1739990059 929357 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 JOIN #esolangs * :b_jonas
< 1739990709 16637 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1739990724 940960 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1739990790 300630 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1739991754 283601 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152213&oldid=152211 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+843) 10/* Core Instructions */ adding b,B,c,C,d,D,e,E
< 1739992082 747043 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lykaina: you have looked at the classic languages Mouse and FALSE before inventing a new language like this, right?
< 1739992088 812930 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :no
< 1739992105 809906 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though if you'll build a fungeoid over this later then that doesn't matter
< 1739992140 854456 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it doesn't look like you want a fungeoid, looks like you want a Forth-like
< 1739992252 427490 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :i may take elements from afth and make a fungeoid
< 1739992286 531534 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :in the future
< 1739992505 31638 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1739992721 65126 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungeball is not afth
< 1739992873 986611 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :though an experiment with a private fork of fungeball's code inspired the cration of afth.
< 1739992874 711110 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1739992905 983369 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1739993222 381770 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :since befunge-93 is inspired by brainfuck and FALSE, it's possible that the similarities between afth and FALSE (which i know nothing about) are due to that.
< 1739994752 838323 :roper!~s7@91.126.186.100 QUIT :Quit: leaving
> 1739995472 445351 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152214&oldid=152180 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1789) 10
> 1739996496 960808 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FOSMOL14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152215 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+3915) 10Created page with "'''FOSMOL''' (an acronym that stands for Fold Operator Start Map Operator List) is a [[:Category:Total|total]] esolang created by [[User:Aadenboy]].  == Values == FOSMOL operates on lists of numbers. These lists can be assigned to a variable, which becomes immutable imm
> 1739996523 735269 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152216&oldid=152114 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+72) 10/* who. who are you */ add [[FOSMOL]]
> 1739996551 703223 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152217&oldid=152187 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+13) 10/* F */ add FOSMOL
> 1739996709 133812 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Free Esolang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152218&oldid=152164 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+252) 10
> 1739996898 892817 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Free Esolang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152219&oldid=152218 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-9) 10
> 1739996971 340573 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Free Esolang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152220&oldid=152219 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-5) 10
< 1739997631 45556 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :just found a bug in the code that prevented stack underruns
< 1739997671 941631 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a holdover from when the code was a befunge interpreter
< 1739997721 248159 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :fixed
< 1739998131 795952 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
> 1739998706 134431 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152221&oldid=152213 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+82) 10Adding link to repository.
< 1739999445 633024 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2603:6011:34f:f7c3:d25:bd8:56f9:4af6 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] AnthonyKozar
< 1739999521 262317 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2603:6011:34f:f7c3:d25:bd8:56f9:4af6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: You asked "How do you disambiguate between A and G?"  The delimiter at the end of a definition is the only (reliable) way to distinguish between the five types of definitions. So, when a SCOOP parser finds a colon followed by an identifier, it should probably just read in characters until it finds a matching delimiter. Then it can
< 1739999521 762587 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2603:6011:34f:f7c3:d25:bd8:56f9:4af6 PRIVMSG #esolangs :decide how to interpret the content string. (The parser does need to pay attention to any colons in the content string and match each colon with a delimiter until it finds the delimiter that matches the first colon).
< 1739999763 997813 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :AnthonyKozar: so if you want to have a number or string with custom members in it, you have to use the extend method?
< 1739999790 393737 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess that will work, you rarely want such a thing anyway
< 1739999808 738138 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though I'm not sure what happens if you try to extend a string with a number or a number with a string
< 1740000194 785234 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2603:6011:34f:f7c3:d25:bd8:56f9:4af6 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1740000341 617820 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Intcode14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152222 5* 03ApisNecros 5* (+567) 10Create page with a question
> 1740000355 971774 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152223&oldid=152189 5* 03Buckets 5* (+15) 10
> 1740000366 508567 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152224&oldid=152217 5* 03Buckets 5* (+16) 10
> 1740000390 709911 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Beep Boop14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152225 5* 03Buckets 5* (+824) 10Created page with "Beep Boop is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2020. (The output Signal is Automatically Off.) {| class="wikitable" ! Commands !! Instructions |- | Beep || Change To A 20 Hz signal. |- | Boop || change to A 200 Hz signal. |- | - || Change 
> 1740000942 933609 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152226&oldid=152221 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+82) 10/* Syntax */ Added mention of arrays.
< 1740003724 98072 :visilii!~visilii@213.24.126.217 JOIN #esolangs * :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1740003765 796548 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152227&oldid=152226 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+155) 10Added Infobox
< 1740003894 363364 :visilii_!~visilii@92.50.200.124 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1740004055 372918 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FOSMOL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152228&oldid=152215 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+106) 10/* Macros */
> 1740004118 548440 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FOSMOL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152229&oldid=152228 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+6) 10/* Mapping */
< 1740004288 543212 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
> 1740004574 992677 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152230&oldid=152227 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+38) 10/* Syntax */ Rephrased "Command Triplets" as "Command Groups"
< 1740004704 633937 :AnthonyKozazr!~AnthonyKo@2603:6011:34f:f7c3:ddf8:9bc3:6e01:fcfd JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] AnthonyKozazr
< 1740004828 296764 :AnthonyKozazr!~AnthonyKo@2603:6011:34f:f7c3:ddf8:9bc3:6e01:fcfd NICK :AnthonyKozar
< 1740005618 933072 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2603:6011:34f:f7c3:ddf8:9bc3:6e01:fcfd PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Thanks for your thoughts and questions!  SCOOP does not have an explicit concept of verbs or selectors.  Other than having multi-word selectors  (like "randomFrom:To:"), is the concept much different from method names/identifiers like in Java or C++?  In the current draft of SCOOP, if an object receives a message that doesn't match any
< 1740005619 459547 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2603:6011:34f:f7c3:ddf8:9bc3:6e01:fcfd PRIVMSG #esolangs :of its methods, that is a runtime error.  And since SCOOP is an esolang, I haven't provided any way to recover from that or similar errors.
> 1740005760 371829 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Compass14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152231&oldid=151782 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-11) 10/* Hello, world! */
> 1740005822 327831 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Compass14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152232&oldid=152231 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-44) 10/* Empty Program */
> 1740005851 927109 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152233&oldid=152230 5* 03Lykaina 5* (-6) 10/* Initial Letters Table */ updated to current
> 1740005856 522325 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Compass14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152234&oldid=152232 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+0) 10/* Empty Program */
< 1740005905 150030 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :AnthonyKozar: are you planning to write a reference interpreter for SCOOP, and longer programs that create many objects programmatically? 
> 1740005949 373872 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Compass14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152235&oldid=152234 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-83) 10/* Examples */
< 1740005994 82052 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it looks like you have an interesting enough language that it might be worth
< 1740006026 988888 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2603:6011:34f:f7c3:ddf8:9bc3:6e01:fcfd PRIVMSG #esolangs :Currently, SCOOP does not have a "default verb/selector [indicating] function-like behavior."  Method objects have a property called ⌘ that can be used to retrieve their code string but that property cannot be used to change the code of a method.  I envisioned methods, numbers, and strings as opaque objects.  Even if you extend them with
< 1740006027 488795 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2603:6011:34f:f7c3:ddf8:9bc3:6e01:fcfd PRIVMSG #esolangs :custom members, there is currently no way to directly modify their internal values.
< 1740006087 948378 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2603:6011:34f:f7c3:ddf8:9bc3:6e01:fcfd PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Yes, I would like both to write some longer programs and to create a reference interpreter (when time allows).
> 1740006106 258892 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152236&oldid=152233 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+73) 10/* Hello, World! */ Added a rephrasing of the program.
< 1740006107 655688 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2603:6011:34f:f7c3:ddf8:9bc3:6e01:fcfd PRIVMSG #esolangs :Thank you!
> 1740006148 537835 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07-114]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152237&oldid=151827 5* 03Buckets 5* (+6) 10
< 1740006290 826084 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2603:6011:34f:f7c3:ddf8:9bc3:6e01:fcfd PRIVMSG #esolangs :I will probably implement SCOOP in Python since I believe Python makes it pretty easy to dynamically define objects and has excellent support for Unicode (from what I can tell).
> 1740006377 405732 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152238&oldid=152188 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1) 10
< 1740006496 11901 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2603:6011:34f:f7c3:ddf8:9bc3:6e01:fcfd PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: (wi)b_jonas: would you recommend any changes to SCOOP, such as adding a catch all method or the equivalent of Python's __call__() ?
> 1740006601 197163 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152239&oldid=152236 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+137) 10/* Add Two Numbers */ Used the program to explain how command chars make up words.
> 1740006722 119763 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152240&oldid=151971 5* 03Buckets 5* (+42) 10
< 1740006810 729361 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2603:6011:34f:f7c3:ddf8:9bc3:6e01:fcfd PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: Re: your second question, yes, there's always just the members of one object in scope and an object definition such as :xy□ works as you described.
> 1740006938 117914 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152241&oldid=152214 5* 03Buckets 5* (+58) 10
> 1740006999 120728 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152242&oldid=152241 5* 03Buckets 5* (+0) 10
> 1740007024 898011 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152243&oldid=152242 5* 03Buckets 5* (+21) 10
< 1740007099 911783 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :AnthonyKozar: I don't know right now. I'm still not sure I understand how powerful or not this is. I think it has enough power to express anything that you could in an ordinary lisp-like language with lambda and set!. It's more the description that I found a bit unclear. 
> 1740007150 119984 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152244&oldid=152239 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+394) 10/* Syntax */ Clarified some things.
< 1740007180 675293 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think you should have a section that tells about just the syntax, with perhaps a BNF thing to show what items can go into what definitions; a section explaining what types of objects exist (null, number, string, italic-f methods, callback methods, small square objects);  
< 1740007231 439034 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2603:6011:34f:f7c3:ddf8:9bc3:6e01:fcfd PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, as you mentioned, objects cannot directly access values from their parent objects. The parent object can create a reference to itself in its offfspring so that they can use member access notation to access the parent.  (And @ can always be used to access the top-level object that provides the scope for the main program code).
< 1740007242 376446 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and what data those objects store exactly. And I think it might be more readable if you talked about the scoping rules before you described what statements there are and maybe even the syntax.
< 1740007312 951450 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2603:6011:34f:f7c3:ddf8:9bc3:6e01:fcfd PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK. Thank you! That is all helpful feedback. :)
> 1740007337 666773 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Compass14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152245&oldid=152235 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+28) 10/* Language syntax */
< 1740007356 479771 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2603:6011:34f:f7c3:ddf8:9bc3:6e01:fcfd PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have to go for dinner now but I'll try to reply to any further questions or comments later.  Thanks again.
< 1740007450 497250 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was also wondering if it would be worth to *remove* the copy object and extend object primitives, because the languae is still powerful without them, the nested definitions let you write a constructor method to create an object and fill its fixed members (as if from a prototype), and then after you call that constructor you can modify its variable members (the ones that differ between instances). But 
> 1740007455 338120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Diggy Gorgonzola 5*  10New user account
< 1740007456 508302 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that might change this to a very different language than you're imagining, and might turn it less object-oriented and more similar to just a bland language with closures and mutable upvalues.
< 1740007553 383784 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also do I understand it right that a telephone method is like a bound method call from python, which stores not only code but also the self that it will execute with, and when you invoke such a telephone method it'll ignore the invocant entirely? 
< 1740007630 635496 :AnthonyKozar!~AnthonyKo@2603:6011:34f:f7c3:ddf8:9bc3:6e01:fcfd QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1740007726 520263 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so if you write ←x▷ymz then this looks up the member m in object y, then if that y.m is an f-with-tail method then it will run the code in that member with $ being y, but if y.m is a telephone method then it'll invoke m with $ set to whatever invocant was saved in m when the colon-definition for that m ran, so y is only used to look up m and not afterwards, right?
< 1740007803 338928 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Does the top level program have the same syntax as the body of a colon-definition for the program object, except it probably makes no sense to put plain single-letter initializers in it because there's no parent to copy values from?
> 1740007884 508114 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152246&oldid=152244 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+159) 10/* Jumping */ expanded section.
< 1740007919 410963 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd also like some clarification on when the methods for numbers like ×÷⌊◯ return a precise rational versus an imprecise float, but this is a nitpick.
< 1740008143 685579 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think you thought both the syntax and semantics through carefully, it's just a lot to digest as a reader.
> 1740009130 374835 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152247&oldid=152246 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+54) 10/* Line-scope Variables */
> 1740009362 259209 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/List of the users that is also in conwaylife.com14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152248&oldid=152068 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+60) 10
> 1740009393 918720 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/List of the users that is also in conwaylife.com14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152249&oldid=152248 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+10) 10
< 1740009656 926711 :esolangs!~esolangs@techne.zem.fi JOIN #esolangs esolangs :esolangs.org
< 1740009656 969314 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services.libera.chat MODE #esolangs +v :esolangs
< 1740009717 128284 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`"
< 1740009719 780319 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :1/1:179)  Invent the game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" (these names are just generated by randomly) \ 1234)  Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "I know, I'll use the Banach-Tarski theorem."
< 1740009768 170515 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(And then they have two problems?)
< 1740010079 728378 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: https://xkcd.com/804/
< 1740010080 238968 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :two problems both the same size as the original!
< 1740010152 369711 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you don't need the Banach-Tarski theorem for that if the problem is an infectious disease
> 1740011610 388170 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Bitchanger Busy beaver14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152250 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+110) 10Created page with "What was used to confirm these? -~~~~"
< 1740012034 431160 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, and I guess if you have built-in integers you might as well add a bitwise-and method to them, that can help 
< 1740012239 909308 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1740012464 663937 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi Sgeo
< 1740012496 414018 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi Lykaina 
< 1740012578 341814 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo: Have you looked at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Afth lately?
< 1740012591 633770 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I haven't actually seen it before now
< 1740012630 329980 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :what do you think?
< 1740012858 815047 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder if the page would be a bit clearer if rearranged, introducing the concept of command groups and the initial letters table before showing any examples that use those
< 1740012914 857749 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :okay
< 1740012921 540172 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :i'll fix that
< 1740012979 419954 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm curious about the rationale behind using tk specifically for some things. I'd wonder if that makes it more esoteric, but then again a lot of CPUs have instructions that have to be used with specific registers
> 1740013013 534369 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152251&oldid=152247 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+0) 10/* Syntax */ moved things around.
< 1740013045 686810 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Are wordnum = wnum and varnum = vnum? Maybe they need to be defined and one chosen for each (e.g. using wordnum consistently, or wnum consistently)
< 1740013107 283469 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :the k in tk is for kompare
> 1740013210 513165 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152252&oldid=152251 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+5) 10/* Core Instructions */ fixing typo Sgeo noticed
< 1740013229 748502 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :should be wordnum and varnum
< 1740013328 682022 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :AFK
< 1740013480 584859 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1740013819 548156 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152253&oldid=152252 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+32) 10/* Initial Letters Table */ clarifying something
> 1740014072 478542 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152254&oldid=152253 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+15) 10/* Jumping */ formatting change
< 1740015659 397169 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Back
< 1740015909 974022 :tromp!~textual@2a02:a210:cba:8500:593d:9801:ba8:3982 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1740016490 196773 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1740016547 239194 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :wb Sgeo
< 1740016617 199072 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :ty
> 1740016714 253761 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152255&oldid=152254 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+6) 10Fixing first line.
< 1740017117 81816 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :should I put the Core Instruction list in ASCII order?
< 1740017252 765073 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Can you put some sort of sorting on the table that lets the reader of the article choose sort order? I think by category makes sense as a default but can imagine why someone would want ASCII sort
< 1740017255 675790 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If there's no better order, then sure. Oftentimes instructions come with some sort of natural grouping or relationship.
< 1740017302 122543 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :the current order is a more logical one
< 1740017390 172286 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Sortable_tables I don't know if the wiki supports this
< 1740017426 269065 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :i'll create https://esolangs.org/wiki/Afth/ASCII-sorted or something like that
< 1740017504 589435 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :and i think it's time to remove {{stub}}
> 1740017595 793941 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152256&oldid=152255 5* 03Lykaina 5* (-10) 10Removing {{stub}}.
> 1740019424 37261 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth/ASCII-Core14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152257 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+3583) 10ASCII-sorted Core Instructions
> 1740019663 710883 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152258&oldid=152256 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+71) 10/* Core Instructions */ Adding link to the Afth/ASCII-Core page.
< 1740019682 612182 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lykaina: Thinking like a technical writer: If somebody wanted to implement Afth, what would they need to know first? What would they read and how would they read it? It can be a useful perspective.
< 1740019745 149944 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, I need it too.
< 1740020071 846089 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Exactly.
< 1740020404 568296 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm gonna make a separate page for the examples, as I tend to deconstruct them for the programmer's benefit. That takes up a lot of space.
> 1740020677 471654 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth/Examples14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152259 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+431) 10Making separate page for Afth Examples and their deconstructions and explanations.
> 1740020881 792339 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152260&oldid=152258 5* 03Lykaina 5* (-377) 10/* Examples */ Moved Examples to Afth/Examples
> 1740023229 320177 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152261&oldid=152260 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+169) 10/* Initial Letters Table */ formatting fix
< 1740023466 931727 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have an idea for [[Afth/Ascii-Core]]...why not add blank spaces for the valid chars that aren't used?
< 1740023929 166989 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll do it on my GitHub's wiki instead, as it's useful for me.
> 1740025015 528242 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth/ASCII-Core14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152262&oldid=152257 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+128) 10Adding "External Links"
> 1740025251 582683 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth/Examples14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152263&oldid=152259 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+106) 10Adding "External Links"
> 1740025460 911436 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152264&oldid=152261 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+79) 10/* External Links */ adding link to GitHub Wiki
> 1740026602 147660 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth/Examples14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152265&oldid=152263 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+125) 10/* Examples */ Added "Cat"
< 1740026715 968919 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :night
< 1740026734 337877 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina QUIT :Quit: Leaving
> 1740028185 858050 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03TDNerd 5*  10New user account
> 1740028517 673026 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152266&oldid=152210 5* 03TDNerd 5* (+180) 10TDNerd's introduction
> 1740031033 582288 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth/ASCII-Core14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152267&oldid=152262 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+806) 10/* ASCII-Sorted Core Instructions */ Added space to show what is unused, something I need and others implementing the language might.
> 1740031101 73954 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth/ASCII-Core14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152268&oldid=152267 5* 03Lykaina 5* (-20) 10/* External Links */ renamed link.
> 1740031795 880466 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadman14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152269&oldid=151034 5* 03Win7HE 5* (-81) 10/* Hello world program */
< 1740032120 129920 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Quit: Leaving
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> 1740037455 489052 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ti!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152270&oldid=150415 5* 0347 5* (+65) 10/* Implementations */
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> 1740037912 492991 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07+*-14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152271&oldid=145718 5* 0347 5* (+255) 10/* External resources */
> 1740038041 711470 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07614]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152272&oldid=149624 5* 0347 5* (+132) 10/* Online interpreters */
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> 1740041833 262452 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152273&oldid=152159 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (-624) 10removed linked list
< 1740042076 74991 :Guest2975!Ae@linux.touz.org NICK :Ae_
< 1740042352 294344 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
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< 1740042609 36961 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: so I realized quantum computers are like big prolog machines. they test every possible scenario
< 1740042619 861720 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the idea of prolog and the idea of quantum computers fit together like a glove
> 1740044062 376231 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152274&oldid=152273 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+61) 10
> 1740044092 75815 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MoreMathRPN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152275&oldid=151562 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+44) 10
> 1740044164 464352 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fun Video Game14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152276&oldid=151365 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+10) 10/* BASE */
> 1740044263 197727 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fun Video Game14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152277&oldid=152276 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+2) 10/* akdrfsbathnede knem */
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> 1740044558 277355 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Array?14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152278&oldid=151546 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+191) 10
> 1740044589 155417 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Array?14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152279&oldid=152278 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-6) 10
> 1740044659 469801 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Array?14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152280&oldid=152279 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+33) 10
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> 1740045527 788333 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Array?14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152281&oldid=152280 5* 0347 5* (+27) 10
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< 1740046279 209186 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: it seems to me that the first problem is reducing prolog down to its grammatical essence. and then to take that language and redesign it to be a child on an evolutionary tree of languages designed to be sent into a jit
< 1740046292 729790 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i say that minkanren is along the grammatical path of evolution for prolog
< 1740046312 562894 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :java is an ancient example of something along the path of evolution for a jitted language
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> 1740048624 682716 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bitchanger Busy beaver14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152282&oldid=152212 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (-156) 10Found a mistake in my generating code
> 1740048700 322606 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bitchanger Busy beaver14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152283&oldid=152282 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+0) 10
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< 1740050352 439456 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1740050835 517182 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StormLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152284&oldid=152057 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+455) 10
> 1740051186 777905 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BFInfinity14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152285&oldid=148566 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+915) 10
< 1740051924 449910 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina JOIN #esolangs Lykaina :Lykaina Wolfe
> 1740052517 179487 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Luna 5*  10New user account
> 1740053269 506279 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152286&oldid=152266 5* 03Luna 5* (+116) 10introducing myself
> 1740053305 651859 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152287&oldid=152286 5* 03Luna 5* (+0) 10fixed typo in my introduction
> 1740055342 600936 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Muriel14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152288&oldid=150186 5* 03Luna 5* (+3) 10fixed missing preposition
< 1740055495 620316 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
> 1740055720 828097 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Muriel14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152289&oldid=152288 5* 03Luna 5* (+1) 10
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< 1740061402 852199 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi
< 1740061783 621104 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1740061808 973508 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi wib_jonas 
< 1740061973 350057 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have a question about the zlib compression format. Is it possible to add padding near the end of a zlib stream, as in make the compressed stream longer in a way that doesn't change the decompressed stream? Is it possible to add padding with length of any given number of bytes above some small minimum size?
< 1740062078 642731 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll try to read https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1951 but I figured someone here probably already knows.
< 1740062087 759941 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :.zip stores data at the end of the file
< 1740062115 975657 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :i know that much
< 1740062150 80196 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :zip or jpeg doesn't help me, I'd like zlib specifically
< 1740062212 979077 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :zlib is gzip without the gzip headers, not zip/pkzip
< 1740062241 705325 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :zlib = deflate
< 1740062276 867034 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, you can concatenate a non-animated .gif and a .zip/.jar.
< 1740062283 469786 :tromp!~textual@2a02:a210:cba:8500:e8ac:89f5:f63a:62db JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1740062287 879485 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no wait, sorry, I'm confused
< 1740062289 411108 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that's a hacker thing
< 1740062301 865984 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :both zip and gzip are wrappers around the deflate/zlib format
< 1740062305 55260 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :with extra headers
< 1740062320 262730 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but here I'd like the raw deflate/zlib if possible
< 1740062346 486657 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry, i don't know...maybe someone else does
< 1740062379 656963 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think there's a thing, because I remember flushing a deflate encoder adds something. But it may be a fixed-length something, so maybe not suitable for a padding of arbitrary length.
< 1740062422 622685 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :This was in Go, and I remember reading this bit in the compress/flate (which does raw deflate streams) docs: "Calling Flush when there is no pending data still causes the Writer to emit a sync marker of at least 4 bytes."
< 1740062455 168401 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's a reference in the code also to https://www.bolet.org/~pornin/deflate-flush.html which explains what that is.
< 1740062477 157765 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Look up "type 0 block with empty contents" in that document.)
< 1740062566 671386 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: thanks
< 1740062660 571014 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also I believe "zlib" (the format) also has headers around a deflate stream, similar to gzip except more minimal, even if "zlib" (the library) can be used to produce raw deflate data as well.
< 1740062711 414391 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see
< 1740063156 187013 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Unrelated to your question, but the thing that I needed raw deflate streams for was to make a rudimentary seekable compression format, by splitting the (uncompressed) input to ~512kiB "frames" each compressed independently, and then appending a seek table with (compressed offset, uncompressed offset) pairs at the end.
< 1740063173 688525 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's some sort of semi-standard called "seekable ZSTD" that (I believe) does something vaguely similar, except in a manner that's transparently compatible with ZSTD decoders that don't know about it (by hiding the necessary extra data in "skippable frames" the ZSTD format has), and I tried just to use a random Go implementation of that to begin with, but it managed somehow to use tens of
< 1740063175 780434 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :gigabytes of RAM when writing and threw up errors when reading.
< 1740063184 749477 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :So I DIY'd it instead, and that seems to work fine.
< 1740063851 509487 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :gtg
< 1740063873 955195 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina QUIT :Quit: Leaving
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< 1740068186 155771 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ok, so zlib is made of blocks, each can be type 0 uncompressed or type 1 compressed with the default Huffman-table or type 2 compressed with a custom Huffman-table. The uncompressed data that the blocks represent are of byte granularity, but the compressed blocks are bit granular, except that type 0 uncompressed blocks are byte aligned after the 3
< 1740068186 655623 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :bit long block header.
< 1740068464 229745 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So a type 0 (uncompressed) block is made of 3 bits, then up to 7 bits of padding for byte alignment, then 4 bytes of header that specifies the length of the uncompressed payload measured in bytes, this length can be up to 65535 bytes or up to 32767 bytes, I'm not sure which, it doesn't matter. So an uncompressed block representing no bytes in the
< 1740068464 729148 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :uncompressed input can be used for padding, and this is 3 bits plus 4 bytes long, 5 bytes long if repeated.
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< 1740068626 794443 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Now the type 1 or type 2 blocks Huffman-encode a number of items each of which represents a literal byte or a repeat statement or an end of block marker. A repeat statement copies a number of bytes from the 33k long window of recently seen uncompressed data, which may be from previous blocks.
< 1740068661 278974 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Now the bad news is that a repeat statement always outputs at least three bytes, so you can't use it as padding without effects.
< 1740068793 573113 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The good news is that you can still use a type 1 block that contains just an end of block marker, and this is 10 bits long; or a type 2 block that contains just the description of the Huffman encoding followed by an end of block marker, which is variable length and between something like 50 to 2315 bits long, I'm not sure about either limit.
< 1740068872 474234 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1740068899 133929 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So you can add padding to a deflate stream, and it's not even hard because the representation of the padding can be precomputed as bit streams and they don't depend on the previous blocks of the zlib stream. I don't know which type is the most efficient for long padding, this would have to be tested with zlib and possibly multiple other inflate
< 1740068899 634146 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :implementations.
< 1740069228 772644 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, they just left.
< 1740069238 89147 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Summarizing note for when lisbeths returns: NP ain't BQP.
< 1740070519 226298 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :can you prove that :p
< 1740072764 138979 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :leah2: probably no, because there's a million dollar prize on it
< 1740072770 742468 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but korvo's point is valid anyway
> 1740072782 233016 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Bitchanger Busy beaver14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152290&oldid=152250 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+265) 10
< 1740072793 792816 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1740072851 295617 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :leah2: What b_jonas said. But we have some good evidence that NP doesn't collapse (indeed that PH doesn't collapse) and also good evidence that BQP derandomizes under some nice still-unknown conditions.
< 1740072940 560274 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In the case to explain to lisbeths, it should be possible to simulate a poly amount of qubits in Prolog, but it'll take exponential time to actually extract an answer from a simulated quantum computation. This matches Holevo's theorem.
< 1740073003 357028 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If BQP derandomizes to BPP then we can speed up the simulation by taking e.g. real-world entropy and taking multiple trials, just like a quantum computer currently does in e.g. Shor's algorithm.
< 1740073106 815359 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...I might be a little strong here with my wording. I believe in both Exponential Time and also that hardness is confined to specific regions of instability; so hardness recursively includes a difficulty in recognizing which problems are hard.
< 1740073302 112777 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1740077137 623785 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1740077158 507172 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1740077565 702647 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I think it's the other direction that's the problem with lisbeth's statement. as in the original was https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2025-02-20.html#lub which seems to say that NP is in BQP in some easy way, which is a common misconception that's still mentioned in https://scottaaronson.blog/ 's tagline/motto. 
< 1740077570 178843 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.205.160.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1740077669 962139 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it's possible that I'm misinterpreting what lisbeths sayid
< 1740077719 133050 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Oh, sure. I'm gonna put a pin in the actually interesting stuff (JIT'ing Prolog) but this is a really good point for understanding.
> 1740079274 253018 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FOSMOL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152291&oldid=152229 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+140) 10/* Example macros */ macro info
> 1740079528 839206 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07OIIAOIIA14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152292 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+352) 10Created page with "OIIAOIIA is a [[brainfuck]] derivative that is very special. == commands ==  transition from...  O to O +  O to I -  O to A ++++++++++  I to O <  I to I [  I to A ]  A to O .  A to I ,  A to A >  space reset == reading it ==  o /u/  i /i/  a /a/    /e/ == examples 
> 1740079558 244907 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07OIIAOIIA14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152293&oldid=152292 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+2) 10/* print "a" */
< 1740079781 290490 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's only been a couple weeks returning to partial-evaluation literature and I'm already struck by the fact that partial evaluation in a metalanguage is so easy compared to self-application, because our object languages are deeply unpleasant and primitive.
< 1740079838 612446 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :PE of Scheme, C, and Prolog are all proven self-applicable, but at too steep a psychic cost to maintain over time.
< 1740079880 307302 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :PE of simple flowchart and SML-ish languages are also proven self-applicable, but we have to write all of our PE logic in these dinky little Turing tarpits.
< 1740080169 526841 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I did prove some fun lemmas along the way. Suppose a language admits a syntactic monoid; the binding-time analysis (BTA) can be monoidally decomposed, and this holds up when categorified.
< 1740080308 545867 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :For example, Brainfuck's got a decomposable monoid. BTA simulates a state of (cells, pointer, unconsumed input) and annotates the program according to reachable states, bottoming out when there's no more input, when everything's static, or when the pointer or current cell value become too dynamic.
< 1740080364 773551 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's actually more sophisticated than the expected BTA from Brainfuck interpreter structure, which is usually like (cells, pointer).
< 1740080480 194925 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also found some fun folklore lemmas. PE of simply-typed LC is Jones-optimal when it includes inlining, unfolding, constant propagation, and constant simplification. That's a remarkably plausible-sounding inventory for those of us who are willing to write STLC.
> 1740081293 685952 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/sandbox 214]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152294 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+194) 10Created page with "Wow! This is a nice looking button!"
> 1740081473 402479 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/sandbox 214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152295&oldid=152294 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+99) 10
> 1740081481 962392 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Q-BAL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152296&oldid=70969 5* 03Cosmikdebris 5* (+44) 10/* External resources */ archive snapshot
> 1740084881 558086 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152297&oldid=152240 5* 03Buckets 5* (+100) 10
> 1740085629 953320 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152298&oldid=152297 5* 03Buckets 5* (+68) 10
> 1740086193 430392 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152299&oldid=149401 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+84) 10/* Syntax */
> 1740086226 495131 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152300&oldid=152299 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+6) 10/* Syntax */
< 1740086247 578053 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
> 1740086474 607388 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152301&oldid=152300 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-110) 10/* Examples */
< 1740089669 915198 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo re https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2023-08.html#lX8 no photo just an anecdote, but I found further evidence that slashed letter o was historically used for handwriting in programming: https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2023-08.html#lX8
< 1740089804 180514 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :The anecdote is the same document I linked? Or was one of those links meant to be something else?
< 1740089874 6228 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah sorry
< 1740089884 451945 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :new evidence: http://www.madore.org/~david/skeets.html#skeet-20250219113239667
< 1740089972 711092 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ø.Ø
< 1740090064 374812 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION writes an emulator that requires installing com0com and using Chrome

< 1740090688 429897 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina JOIN #esolangs Lykaina :Lykaina Wolfe
< 1740090830 654283 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi
> 1740092069 302482 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07WaidWmy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152302&oldid=149968 5* 03AlmostGalactic 5* (+177) 10/* Labels */
< 1740092787 411032 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
> 1740093941 801676 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152303&oldid=152264 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+256) 10/* Syntax */ Added something about "Stacks"
> 1740095554 113487 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152304&oldid=152223 5* 03Buckets 5* (+10) 10
> 1740095561 278700 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152305&oldid=152224 5* 03Buckets 5* (+11) 10
> 1740095575 777692 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Abba14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152306 5* 03Buckets 5* (+536) 10Created page with "Abba is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2021. (The cell can only store 1 digit.) {| class="wikitable" ! Commands !! Instructions |- | 0-9 || + 0-9 |- | g || 'glue 1,wait until g again.' |- | c || It clears the cell. |- | o || It prints what i
> 1740095877 406115 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Abba14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152307 5* 03Buckets 5* (+203) 10/* What does 'glue 1,wait until g again.' Mean? */ new section
> 1740096118 332428 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth/ASCII-Core14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152308&oldid=152268 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+23) 10/* ASCII-Sorted Core Instructions */ missed a blank.
< 1740098732 17681 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1740100879 927076 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth/ASCII-Core14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152309&oldid=152308 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+52) 10/* ASCII-Sorted Core Instructions */ added . and :
> 1740101270 305915 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Project Euler/114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152310&oldid=144068 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+163) 10
> 1740101531 625464 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152311&oldid=152303 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+98) 10/* Core Instructions */ adding . and :
> 1740101555 615807 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152312&oldid=152274 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+225) 10Use of ROZ
> 1740101605 209982 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152313&oldid=152312 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (-5) 10/* Memory */
> 1740103244 822834 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152314&oldid=152313 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+1037) 10Linked List example
> 1740103346 308368 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152315&oldid=152314 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+69) 10/* Linked List */
> 1740103448 984985 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152316&oldid=152315 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+66) 10fixed indentation
> 1740104214 917533 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152317&oldid=152316 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+9) 10/* Statements */
> 1740104278 70029 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152318&oldid=152317 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+0) 10/* Instructions */
> 1740104332 816027 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152319&oldid=152318 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+1) 10/* Instructions */
> 1740104371 970914 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152320&oldid=152319 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (-4) 10/* Instructions */
> 1740104417 437275 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152321&oldid=152320 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (-139) 10/* Instructions */
> 1740104507 844860 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152322&oldid=152321 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+13) 10/* Linked List */
> 1740104704 991520 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152323&oldid=152322 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+39) 10/* Cat */
> 1740105313 941542 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Project Euler/114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152324&oldid=152310 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+215) 10/* MoreMathRPN */
> 1740105413 518595 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Project Euler/114]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152325&oldid=152324 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+21) 10/* External resources */
> 1740105433 598415 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Project Euler/114]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152326&oldid=152325 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+0) 10/* External resources */
< 1740105954 79193 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1740108468 555141 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :i noticed something in my documentation for Afth that made me realize i need to make more of an update to the interpreter
> 1740108826 937091 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152327&oldid=152311 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+31) 10/* Jumping */
< 1740108847 985286 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :turned a feature into a bug
> 1740109358 448452 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:OIIAOIIA14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152328 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+80) 10Created page with "
o, i i a, i o i i i i a, i
 ::::::- a spinning cat
"
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< 1740125119 716971 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs lisbeths :lisbeths
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< 1740130997 191334 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: Morning. Did you see our conversation in the logs? If not, I can catch you up.
< 1740131016 183297 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :catch me up please korvo
< 1740131066 717452 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: So, there were two interesting topics. One is JIT'ing Prolog, and we can come back to that later. But the other was hinting at a common misconception about quantum computing that is worth addressing.
< 1740131079 24087 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure
< 1740131104 431837 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :A quantum computer doesn't try every possibility at once. Rather, it builds up states of relatively high and low probability through some non-ontic mechanism. In terms of complexity theory, NP isn't BQP.
< 1740131138 299425 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :We should be able to simulate qubits using Prolog. A polynomial amount of qubits will take exponential resources to simulate, though; Holevo's bound applies.
< 1740131167 180287 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry? what is "non-ontic"?
< 1740131245 169299 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :all we need is a bunch of graphics cards
< 1740131246 647919 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, sorry, I should pick better words. A theory can be either epistemic (what we know about a system) or ontic (what the system's states actually are). Quantum systems usually are epistemic and there's theoretical barriers to ontic models.
< 1740131266 103601 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that the language to be jitted should be a language that is capable of boostrapping a prolog
< 1740131298 990007 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Relevant to this channel, it's an easy theorem that no cellular automaton can implement qubits with only polynomial amounts of cellular data, used by Aaronson to argue against Wolfram's bullshit.
< 1740131318 961075 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry my mind is in many places at once
< 1740131320 492893 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :thats all fine
< 1740131344 279946 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Holevo's bound says that if you want to simulate a row of qubits, then you're going to have to spend poly time on a quantum machine, or exponential time on a classical machine, and you can only read out one bit/qubit.
< 1740131373 327782 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :No worries! Let's leave QM behind and talk about JITs. Much simpler.
< 1740131765 136512 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :until more information is out about quantum computers I can only speculate about the compilers that will run on them
< 1740131912 338216 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :What kind of information?
< 1740131934 307103 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :like buy a quantum processor at the store
< 1740131989 157527 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the only issue is if the research I do on jits has to be redone when quantum computing becomes common
< 1740132230 294561 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :You can buy time on IBM's quantum computers today. It's not especially cheap. They have a software simulator that you can use for development.
< 1740132322 536419 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure why JIT technology would be invalidated. All classical algorithms will still work.
< 1740133196 732370 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am still looking for your answer to what we should use as a jit language in the year of our lord 2025 on the day of febuary 21
< 1740133199 74542 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo
< 1740133284 86464 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: Well, my answer's mostly the same as before. For self-application, I think that a synthetic language will do better than anything popular. For implementing a JIT, I'd use RPython. For the language to implement, anything!
< 1740133300 175049 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :okay so rpython
< 1740133353 430413 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo should I use rpython as my jit or should I choose a langauge that is already jitted on rpython
< 1740133436 947030 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :RPython is already JIT'd on RPython, via PyPy. So you don't have to worry about that.
< 1740133696 934290 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: So for example perhaps you'd want to implement fastlisp in RPython as a simple interpreter. Then that interpreter can be turned into a JIT compiler with the same behavior.
< 1740133754 826588 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :no fastlisp is going to run in some lambda calculus interpreter and it will be code that generates rpython
< 1740133778 478347 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo have you heard of the mojo version of python?
< 1740133799 189667 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :You might find that to be a little slow; RPython's translator is whole-program, AOT, and takes at least five minutes.
< 1740133847 539513 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm aware of Mojo. It's not open-source or open to implement, so I don't really care about it. Most of their performance claims are about cherry-picked benchmarks and shouldn't be trusted.
< 1740133852 378839 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you are saying that rpython outperforms mojo?
< 1740133858 412343 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah not open source got it
< 1740133888 210918 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok first Im going to generate some regular python then im gonna generate some rpython
< 1740133968 822020 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, RPython's outputs definitely outperform LLVM; RPython used to have an LLVM backend but they removed it because it wasn't worthwhile.
< 1740134015 127226 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah we are going with rpython for now on the fastlisp side but first im gonna generate some regular python
< 1740134035 423936 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am creating a hybrid between scheme and fastlisp to speed up production
< 1740134134 348526 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Do you already have a production workflow?
< 1740134151 966738 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've worked for multiple employers whose main issue was that they were focused on optimizing a non-existent production pipeline.
< 1740134313 656081 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am not sure what you mean by production korvo
< 1740134325 887476 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: What did you mean by production?
< 1740134349 374287 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean manufacturing, database queries, batch processing, that sort of thing.
< 1740136086 508622 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo what does a production workflow look like for someone who designs programming languages
< 1740136199 143334 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: I like the SMM approach, somtimes called the Capability Matrix or the Maturity Model. It suggests that a language can evolve through five different stages of complexity and maturity. It also neatly lines up with Discordian philosophy.
< 1740136225 690434 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I'm the sort of person who spends years per language. Somebody who emits languages more often probably has a different way of looking at it.
< 1740136336 397047 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am just developing languages dialectically
< 1740136355 597836 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so capability matrixes may or may not be incorporated into my dialectics
< 1740137994 475804 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. That's not unreasonable; Agile is popular because it delivers results.
> 1740138276 600980 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EternalGolf14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152329 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+5627) 10Created page with "EternalGolf is an esoteric programming language designed by PrySigneToFry to code-golfing. You're free to expand this programming language, just like [https://wiki.xdi8.top/wiki/%E5%B8%8C%E5%90%95%E5%AD%97%E6%AF%8D Infinite Shidinn Letter].  = Rules = # Your e
< 1740143289 538201 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1740144336 92622 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1740144726 13661 :chomwitt!~alex@2a02:587:7a13:5400:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd JOIN #esolangs chomwitt :realname
< 1740144953 258671 :chomwitt!~alex@2a02:587:7a13:5400:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1740148423 992767 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1740149591 495139 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1740149606 791851 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1740149734 258056 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Aadenboy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152330&oldid=152209 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+40) 10
> 1740151187 710788 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152331&oldid=152191 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+0) 10Fixed, but with different character(10,000 in Chinese, not n@zi sign)
> 1740151201 160026 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[071.114]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152332&oldid=142605 5* 03Cosmikdebris 5* (-3) 10
> 1740151253 973929 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Python is Magic14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152333&oldid=141200 5* 03Benben 5* (+29) 10make "exec", "chr", and integers
< 1740152020 945457 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1740152294 101037 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina JOIN #esolangs Lykaina :Lykaina Wolfe
< 1740152333 151419 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi
< 1740152587 874395 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :fixing a bug in the Afth reference interpreter
< 1740152771 606232 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :realized the bug existed right before i ell asleep
< 1740152781 511449 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :*fell
< 1740152889 429052 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :was able to mention it in wiki, but not fix it
< 1740153787 221009 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.205.160.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
> 1740153837 522951 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152334&oldid=152327 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+64) 10/* Jumping */ Documenting results of bug fix.
< 1740153897 477947 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.185.24.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
> 1740154070 243866 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Draft for SLet 414]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152335 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+3314) 10Created page with "{{SUBST::SLet}}"
> 1740154217 654304 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Draft for SLet 414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152336&oldid=152335 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-547) 10
< 1740154466 165987 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :damn...the cat program, which i just decided to test, isn't working
< 1740154491 350468 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :i think it's another bug somewhere
< 1740154539 972536 :chomwitt!~alex@2a02:587:7a13:5400:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd JOIN #esolangs chomwitt :realname
> 1740154740 52105 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Draft for SLet 414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152337&oldid=152336 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-213) 10
> 1740155701 701503 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Draft for SLet 414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152338&oldid=152337 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-76) 10
< 1740155930 506782 :chomwitt!~alex@2a02:587:7a13:5400:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1740156177 220671 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Draft for SLet 414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152339&oldid=152338 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+30) 10/* Commands */
> 1740156304 392121 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Draft for SLet 414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152340&oldid=152339 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+0) 10/* Commands */
< 1740157311 33184 :chomwitt!~alex@2a02:587:7a13:5400:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd JOIN #esolangs chomwitt :realname
< 1740158343 130336 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1740160375 98 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.185.24.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :
< 1740163534 197249 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1740163572 477352 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1740163618 216588 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1740165015 768798 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TESTLANG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152341&oldid=140515 5* 0347 5* (+1) 10/* Hello, world! */
> 1740165034 937377 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (T-Z)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152342&oldid=142853 5* 0347 5* (-24) 10/* TESTLANG */
< 1740166295 336389 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :grrr...no idea what's wrong
< 1740166416 729522 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :i just had to do a git restore
< 1740166514 675180 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :the cat program i wrote doesn't work
< 1740166546 659879 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :and i have no idea why
< 1740167372 600525 :chomwitt!~alex@2a02:587:7a13:5400:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1740167620 591948 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lykaina: what is this test for: len(line)%4 == 3  (the final line of the first cat program doesn't pass this test)
< 1740167652 273741 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the test is in run_line)
< 1740167690 972125 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh...old code
< 1740167716 199264 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :if I drop that check, the cat program does copy input to output. It fails to detect EOF
< 1740168100 957303 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks
< 1740168117 885843 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :found other old bugs in the process as well
< 1740168242 97883 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :so glad i put the source online
> 1740168286 575126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152343&oldid=152323 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (-10) 10/* Hello world */
> 1740168322 431622 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152344&oldid=152343 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (-13) 10/* Hello world */
> 1740168568 83749 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152345&oldid=152304 5* 03Buckets 5* (+35) 10
> 1740168575 781653 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152346&oldid=152305 5* 03Buckets 5* (+11) 10
> 1740168603 751050 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kyle14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152347 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1011) 10Created page with "Kyle is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2024, It is on a 2D grid and the Pointer is Kyle  which '''might''' follow your directions, or not. {| class="wikitable" ! Commands !! Instructions |- | ^ || 20% chance to go up. |- | < || 20% chance t
< 1740168909 838732 :roper!~r5@121.red-81-39-58.dynamicip.rima-tde.net JOIN #esolangs roper :ro
< 1740169075 460519 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :thank you so much int-e
< 1740169170 272730 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :pushed the fix
> 1740169340 604665 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kyle14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152348&oldid=152347 5* 03Buckets 5* (+39) 10
> 1740169854 796699 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152349&oldid=152243 5* 03Buckets 5* (+59) 10
< 1740170230 266666 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :now for the hard part: rewriting the mess of an input/output system i wrote so that it will accept an eof
< 1740170318 112897 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :i mean, stop at an eof
> 1740171313 73229 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Halt preventing brainfuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152350 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+1536) 10Created page with "Halt preventing  Brainfuck is a [[brainfuck]] derivative that can be used to solve the halting problem, calculate busy beavers, and solve math problems.  == Commands ==  {| class="wikitable" !Command !Description |- | style="text-align:center"|  1740171359 717272 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5*  10moved [[02Halt preventing brainfuck10]] to [[Loop preventing brainfuck]]: this makes more sense
> 1740171435 25134 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Loop preventing brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152353&oldid=152351 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+0) 10/* Random number generator */
> 1740171446 810580 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Loop preventing brainfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152354&oldid=152353 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+0) 10/* BrainFuck busy beaver */
> 1740171456 449683 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Loop preventing brainfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152355&oldid=152354 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+0) 10/* Solving collatz conjecture */
> 1740171771 373881 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152356&oldid=152349 5* 03Buckets 5* (+19) 10
> 1740172087 210890 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152357&oldid=152346 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+32) 10
< 1740172101 600491 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :now i must figure out why hex output outputs 'k' instead of '0a'
< 1740172155 624269 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :changed the cat program to stop after a new line
< 1740172177 626118 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :haven't uploaded changes, though
< 1740172663 395313 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :found it
< 1740172725 891126 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lykaina: don't worry about updating git for my sake, I'm half asleep and no longer following
< 1740172746 600830 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, i like to update it
< 1740172796 823037 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's for anyone who wants to look at current code
< 1740172867 956977 :roper!~r5@121.red-81-39-58.dynamicip.rima-tde.net QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1740173778 667823 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :`olist 1319
< 1740173781 312402 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :olist : shachaf oerjan Sgeo boily nortti b_jonas Noisytoot
> 1740174639 244902 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Free Esolang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152358&oldid=152220 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+106) 10
> 1740174686 74528 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Free Esolang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152359&oldid=152358 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1) 10
> 1740174721 998296 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Free Esolang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152360&oldid=152359 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-1) 10
> 1740175063 585043 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth/Examples14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152361&oldid=152265 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+478) 10/* Examples */ Added Echo.
< 1740176194 50345 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1740176946 261482 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1740177860 353005 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1740177874 705817 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
> 1740178162 952335 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152362&oldid=152345 5* 03Buckets 5* (+362) 10
> 1740178174 365557 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152363&oldid=152357 5* 03Buckets 5* (+356) 10
> 1740178221 244953 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fontmess14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152364 5* 03Buckets 5* (+4443) 10Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=Fo''n''tm 1740195796 138531 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StormLang/Standard Libraries14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152381&oldid=152380 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1) 10
> 1740195815 692750 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StormLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152382&oldid=152379 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+41) 10
> 1740198145 742483 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Neoff14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152383 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+390) 10Created page with "this is in need of a major rewrite the code before was supposed to look like normal code but abnormal, here was the original idea: 
 Push Caller Set Let A = 0 Comefrom 4 A++  When (A == 10){  Call } Caller Set{  A = 0  Print(A has hit 10 and has been set back 
< 1740202034 719314 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: https://epicpikaguy.itch.io/sea-magic
< 1740202243 480699 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Excellent, a sequel.
> 1740203288 888261 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (H-M)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152384&oldid=151495 5* 03Benben 5* (+140) 10/* Legend */ add Lenguage
< 1740205232 10847 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:f126:15c3:35a5:81ac:187c QUIT :Quit: Leaving
> 1740207015 210625 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Empty Program14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152385&oldid=151524 5* 03Benben 5* (+135) 10/* Scratch(text), Kitten3(text), Kitten4(text) */ add link of scratch blocks
> 1740207847 270923 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152386&oldid=151640 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+0) 10
> 1740208163 321686 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:99 bottles of beer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152387&oldid=84795 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1748) 10
> 1740208512 298212 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EternalGolf14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152388&oldid=152376 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+2) 10
< 1740209440 492391 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or a seaquel?
< 1740210792 179479 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1740212660 421933 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
> 1740213148 933966 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 0347 5*  10moved [[02IEO-fork10]] to [[Tryit.org]]
> 1740213148 966244 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 0347 5*  10moved [[02Talk:IEO-fork10]] to [[Talk:Tryit.org]]
> 1740213160 883165 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Tryit.org14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152393&oldid=152391 5* 0347 5* (-216) 10Blanked the page
> 1740213271 809433 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tryit.org14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152394&oldid=152389 5* 0347 5* (-906) 10
> 1740213362 311869 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 overwrite10 02 5* 0347 5*  10uploaded a new version of "[[02File:IEO-fork home.png10]]"
> 1740213417 443644 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tryit.org14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152396&oldid=152394 5* 0347 5* (+41) 10
> 1740213436 142136 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tryit.org14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152397&oldid=152396 5* 0347 5* (+6) 10
> 1740213447 390655 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tryit.org14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152398&oldid=152397 5* 0347 5* (+0) 10
> 1740213465 501022 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tryit.org14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152399&oldid=152398 5* 0347 5* (+16) 10
> 1740213645 725348 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tryit.org14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152400&oldid=152399 5* 0347 5* (+65) 10
> 1740213977 4657 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tryit.org14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152401&oldid=152400 5* 0347 5* (+39) 10
< 1740219480 422399 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1740221109 69671 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EternalGolf14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152402&oldid=152388 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+473) 10
> 1740221229 399124 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Loop preventing brainfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152403&oldid=152355 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+26) 10
> 1740224407 900118 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Loop preventing brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152404&oldid=152403 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+26) 10
< 1740227030 13875 :roper!~r5@121.red-81-39-58.dynamicip.rima-tde.net JOIN #esolangs roper :ro
> 1740229722 410471 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Game:Nonsense14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152405&oldid=151908 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+594) 10
< 1740231630 420263 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1740233226 149734 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: Oh well, at least I've got 12 (all?) medals: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/seamagic.png
> 1740234437 121423 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Draft for SLet 414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152406&oldid=152373 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-651) 10/* Commands */
> 1740234588 686761 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Draft for SLet 414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152407&oldid=152406 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-123) 10/* Commands */
> 1740234682 123821 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Game:Nonsense14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152408&oldid=152405 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+3) 10fix
< 1740234961 824039 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh, is this some new game?
< 1740234974 293745 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :06:27:14  int-e: https://epicpikaguy.itch.io/sea-magic
< 1740234985 299646 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(9 hours ago)
< 1740235077 537554 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :apparently "traitorous" and "treacherous" have somewhat different meanings in English and they might have different etimologies. I assumed "treacherous" was just a weird hard to remember irregular spelling for what should be "traitorous" 
< 1740235127 361641 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :a swamp can be treacherous but it lacks the freedom of will that a traitor has
< 1740235204 213685 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they are both from latin, but from apparently two unrelated latin verbs, "trīcor" and "trādō" respectively
< 1740235340 670523 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are solutions for that, like the Zendikons
< 1740235361 908563 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though I think on Zendikar land has its own will even when it's not a creature
< 1740235385 325312 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and on that plane, every land is treacherous, not just swamps
< 1740235427 488769 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wtf is... oh it's an M:tG thing
< 1740235456 991849 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, Zendikar is a plane where the land keeps changing so it's hard to make maps or explore or build anything stable
> 1740235568 395752 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EternalGolf14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152409&oldid=152402 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+2) 10
< 1740237062 606780 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Annoying: in this font, ▐ (right half block) is actually the inverse of ▍ (left three eights block) rather than ▌ (left half block).
< 1740237139 542669 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Not *really* a problem for my use (I'm just doing some tick marks in a TUI that I want at double the horizontal resolution, and can set foreground/background colors appropriately and use left half block exclusively, that's exactly half the character cell in this font) but it still bothers me.
< 1740238535 54132 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina JOIN #esolangs Lykaina :Lykaina Wolfe
> 1740238544 497653 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth/Examples14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152410&oldid=152365 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+532) 10/* Examples */ Added 5-Function RPN Calculator, updated Hello World.
> 1740238870 469414 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Bitchanger Busy beaver14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152411&oldid=152290 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+238) 10
> 1740238886 963790 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Bitchanger Busy beaver14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152412&oldid=152411 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (-5) 10
< 1740239416 92296 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :was able to make a 5-function rpn calculator in Afth
> 1740239501 251484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:Scratch progama de comer mi caca.png10]]"
> 1740239625 98113 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152414&oldid=152078 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+4) 10
> 1740240137 243701 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/common.css14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152415&oldid=142976 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+91) 10
> 1740240158 759001 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/common.css14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152416&oldid=152415 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (-1) 10
> 1740240169 724565 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/common.css14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152417&oldid=152416 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+3) 10
< 1740240402 464703 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
> 1740240484 659007 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:OIIAOIIA14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152418&oldid=152328 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+349) 10
> 1740240507 423218 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:OIIAOIIA14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152419&oldid=152418 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+10) 10
> 1740240778 273421 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:OIIAOIIA14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152420&oldid=152419 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+416) 10
< 1740240790 369750 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1740240851 856057 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/common.css14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152421&oldid=152417 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (-93) 10Blanked the page
< 1740240951 163289 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
> 1740241131 322141 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152422&oldid=151143 5* 0347 5* (+4) 10/* G# */
> 1740242207 722787 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MoreMathRPN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152423&oldid=152371 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+86) 10/* Matrices */
< 1740242249 385027 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1740242804 360026 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1740243103 893071 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1740244302 879827 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1740244341 525896 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1740245542 908464 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Bitchanger Busy beaver14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152424&oldid=152412 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+169) 10
< 1740245556 491607 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1740245626 998443 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1740245748 747246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bitchanger Busy beaver14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152425&oldid=152283 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+94) 10
< 1740246739 105084 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1740246765 667586 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bitchanger Busy beaver14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152426&oldid=152425 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+0) 10
< 1740247131 184342 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1740251973 631510 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc9:5401:f84c:3945:8bda:df26 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic
< 1740251989 424127 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc9:5401:f84c:3945:8bda:df26 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi :-)
< 1740252087 671256 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi impomatic
< 1740252150 159158 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc9:5401:f84c:3945:8bda:df26 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Does anyone know the history of Fungewars, or have an earlier version?  It was discussed quite a bit on the Befunge mailing list in the late 90s - other names suggested were Befunge Warriors and Funge Gladiators. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fungewars
< 1740252156 18116 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc9:5401:f84c:3945:8bda:df26 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi ais523
< 1740252219 658540 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think Fungewars had mostly/entirely died down by the point I became interested in esolangs, and I've been here for much longer than most in this channel
< 1740252282 120207 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because I don't recall discussion about it, and the dates on the linked pages are very old
< 1740252328 785088 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it probably even predates the wiki?
< 1740252356 585350 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you'd have to contact people who were active at that time
< 1740252384 723706 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc9:5401:f84c:3945:8bda:df26 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I remember Befunge from the 90s, but wasn't too interesthed at that point.  I wrote a few programs in Brainfuck though.
< 1740252571 997245 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc9:5401:f84c:3945:8bda:df26 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The date on Fungewars 0.4.5 is December 2001, but the idea was being discussed 3-4 years before on the mailing list (I found the Befunge Mailing List archive).
< 1740252717 483228 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the wiki is from 2005
< 1740252755 130186 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think my interest in esolangs started in 2004 or so
< 1740252781 969172 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it's before the period I remember, and you'll have to track down some people who were around the esolangs community before I was
< 1740253036 725631 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc9:5401:f84c:3945:8bda:df26 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Thanks, I'll try Chris Pressey, he might remember something.
< 1740253519 987184 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :i'm having problems with Afth, with something I haven't pushed yet to github
< 1740253605 88240 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :just pushed it
< 1740253643 540674 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :examples/calc.afth works, but examples/rpncalc.afth doesn't.
< 1740253729 307830 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :the wiki page refers to 0.1, this is 0.2.
< 1740253744 572575 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :i need help
< 1740253838 89340 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay. What doesn't work? (The other question I usually start with is "What have you tried?" which you already answered.)
< 1740253942 285025 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :the example file rpncalc.afth
< 1740253968 686301 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, only addition works in it
< 1740253991 888514 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's based on calc.afth, with everything works in
< 1740254023 22214 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :brb
< 1740254463 355955 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: Yay. "Max rank reached!"
< 1740254473 809307 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :back
< 1740254483 620751 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :had to use bathroom
< 1740254529 257977 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :the word definitions are in dict.afth
< 1740254555 972366 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's the main difference between 0.1 and 0.2
< 1740254583 481593 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :0.1 had a tiny built-in dictionary
< 1740254604 904756 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :i moved it to an external file
< 1740254615 208720 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Nice. I only got through the first few levels.
< 1740254682 430141 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lykaina: It might be time to build some debugging tools. You can either go "white-box" or "clear-box", debugging by accessing the internals of the interpreter, or you could go "black-box" by treating the interpreter as opaque and writing acceptance tests in Afth.
< 1740254738 543874 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc9:5401:f84c:3945:8bda:df26 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1740254738 612781 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Either way, don't worry about complete coverage yet. You have a git commit where everything worked, and so in the worst case, you can redo all of the work from 0.1 to 0.2. Yes, it's laborious, but sometimes it's the only way to find regressions.
< 1740254739 552922 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Some of the thinking from Bee Magic carries over, though it's quite a different game overall.
< 1740254748 630123 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc9:5401:f84c:3945:8bda:df26 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic
> 1740254772 896365 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:47/common.css14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152427 5* 0347 5* (+91) 10Created page with "* {background-color:black !important; color:white !important;} a {color:purple !important;}"
< 1740254776 808201 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :rpncalc.afth never worked
< 1740254787 892651 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Also I've done nothing else today :P
< 1740254796 72360 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :As you get used to writing smaller commits, tools like git-bisect can become *very* useful. I've bisected Linux and Mesa3D before, and it's actually a little fun since it only takes like five iterations.
< 1740254800 565514 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :because i wrote it after 0.2
> 1740254839 446198 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:47/common.css14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152428&oldid=152427 5* 0347 5* (-63) 10
< 1740254840 152138 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Good times. Some levels were about as difficult as Bee Magic for me, but some levels were much tougher; I confess that I can't figure out how to use Slide other than to softlock.
< 1740254889 232561 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lykaina: Oh! Then there's a third possibility: that rpncalc.afth has a bug!
< 1740254941 338999 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Yeah, the sliding gave me some trouble too.
< 1740254941 867167 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :then why does calc.afth work before the two diverge?
> 1740254977 209501 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07G Sharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152429&oldid=151337 5* 0347 5* (+7) 10
< 1740254978 880454 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, presumably the divergence introduced a bug.
< 1740255026 486827 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: bisecting Linux sounds painful just because of the compile times
> 1740255030 131511 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07G Sharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152430&oldid=152429 5* 0347 5* (+14) 10/* Errors */
< 1740255063 214186 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm… in a repository that uses lots of parallel commits and does big merges of them, do bisections merge together half the commits to more quickly narrow down which of the branches the bug occurred on?
< 1740255120 648643 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: The trick is to keep a git checkout of the kernel and build-and-boot from that one directory, even if using Apt, RPM, Nix, Portage, etc. for the rest of the system. For subsystems that can be 100% compiled as modules, like DRM/DRI, the build is quite incremental and spends most of its time bzip'ing the image.
> 1740255133 446471 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (D-G)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152431&oldid=147629 5* 0347 5* (-8) 10/* G# */
< 1740255164 82373 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: ah, I see, you aren't bisecting the entire kernel but just the files that seem relevant
< 1740255172 939702 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Mesa3D is the one that takes a long time to build, especially since they now use C++.
< 1740255231 174056 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've done bisections before but don't really enjoy them, they're sufficiently time-consuming that I'd prefer to grep commit messages or reason out the bug instead
< 1740255232 779428 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Oh yeah, I'd just be diagnosing hardlocks in one piece of hardware. The worst part would be when the boot is fine but a userspace program provokes the hardlock; minutes of booting into X11 per test.
< 1740255363 821792 :roper!~r5@121.red-81-39-58.dynamicip.rima-tde.net QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1740255366 372483 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1740255406 895004 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :What's cool is that sometimes git-bisect does blame Somebody Else's Code, and usually it's right to do so! Counterfactual reasoning really does work for finding proximate causes of bugs, even if the problem is that somebody else refactored something and changed your invariants.
< 1740255435 65540 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lykaina: How are things? Do you need more eyes?
< 1740255596 436760 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :let me try rewriting rpncalc.afth to use relative jumps only instead of both relative and absolute
< 1740255616 213643 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: this is of course an argument for programming languages being better at expressing invariants – they have moved slowly in that direction over time but still aren't really near what they'd need to manage
< 1740255648 429225 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even null-safety wasn't emphasised much until recently, even in relatively high-level languages
< 1740255674 627064 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the functional languages got there before the imperative ones, I think
< 1740255814 309188 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yep. The trick is having a subobject classifier. In CoC or whatever, that's a type of Propositions. It's not something that imperative languages usually reify or conceptualize.
< 1740255894 182528 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In Cammy, the subobject classifier is 2, implying that everything is total-computable and discrete. Hoare logic could be described for an arbitrary f : X → Y in terms of pre- and post-conditions with types X → 2 and Y → 2.
< 1740255920 465208 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I haven't actually wired all of it up, but there's an obvious route to property-based testing and proofs of invariants and arbitrary properties.
< 1740255967 557061 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it strikes me that even something as simple as "assert on set; assert_unchecked on get" would, in addition to catching bugs, quite possibly improve the performance of the typical imperative program
< 1740255980 674805 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because the asserts on set would usually get optimised out and the asserts on get might be useful
< 1740256044 156858 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yep. In RPython, checked bounds on arrays are not only usually JIT'd out, but repurposed into JIT guards which jump to not-yet-compiled code on failure. And if a guard fails enough, then its failure gets traced and JIT'd too.
< 1740256122 552473 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In order to make that practical, there's also guards for when exceptions are (not) raised, etc. Every check and assertion is turned into an optimization opportunity.
< 1740256676 281559 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :i think i may have found where the problem is, but not why the problem is
< 1740256787 805149 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Nice. It might be the case that you can rewrite the code to make it simpler without having to understand the problem. Or it might be the case that the problem is small and can be repaired with surgery.
< 1740256818 852017 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :problem is when there are two jump instructions on the same line
< 1740257102 51790 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :pushed the current code
> 1740258150 492426 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152432&oldid=152334 5* 03Lykaina 5* (-904) 10Removing "Predefined words" section, as there no longer are any.
> 1740258573 113508 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mierda14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152433&oldid=82388 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+88) 10Rectified the Hello, World! program and introduced two further examples in a repeating cat program and a truth-machine.
> 1740258628 263013 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mierda14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152434&oldid=152433 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+189) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the Mierda programming language on GitHub and supplemented the Implemented category tag.
> 1740258865 990746 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth/Examples14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152435&oldid=152410 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+646) 10Updating for current version.
> 1740258928 422718 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mierda14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152436&oldid=152434 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+8) 10Introduced line breaks in two of the example programs for reasons of aesthetics.
> 1740259039 994715 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152437&oldid=152432 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+95) 10/* Jumping */ Adding notice about bug.
> 1740259406 779017 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth/Examples14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152438&oldid=152435 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+96) 10/* RPN Calculator */ added a note on how to use.
> 1740260143 681775 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Bitchanger Busy beaver14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152439&oldid=152424 5* 03Int-e 5* (+302) 10Question about accounting for loops.
> 1740260240 599382 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MoreMathRPN14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152440&oldid=152423 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+1) 10/* Implicit plotter */
> 1740260282 371449 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Bitchanger Busy beaver14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152441&oldid=152439 5* 03Int-e 5* (+1) 10indent a reply for better readability
> 1740260286 846366 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MoreMathRPN14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152442&oldid=152440 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+1) 10/* Infinity */
> 1740260365 153004 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152443&oldid=152374 5* 03Buckets 5* (+14) 10
> 1740260377 877013 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152444&oldid=152362 5* 03Buckets 5* (+12) 10
> 1740260430 104900 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07V14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152445 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1264) 10Created page with "V is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2020. (The 2D grid is of A space of 16 by 16 Containing all extended ASCII in order.) {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- |  || Move 1 down. |- |  || Move 1 right. |- | n || Set 
> 1740260593 654914 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07A+B Problem14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152446&oldid=150810 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-57) 10/* ! */
< 1740260770 621194 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc9:5401:f84c:3945:8bda:df26 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1740260849 175880 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Hmm, when counting Brainfuck steps for BB purposes, do you have ] check the loop condition, or does it jump back to the [? I guess the latter would make +[-] take 5 steps so BBB(4)=4 answers that question...
< 1740260931 625223 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Oh, I don't recall how it's defined. I'd guess that your reasoning is right. I normally think of Brainfuck as only checking with the [ operation, and the ] is mere syntax; I know that that's not always how it's implemented though.
< 1740260982 181665 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I should clarify that I didn't define the BBB() function but lifted it from one of our myriad Brainfuck sub-pages.
< 1740261008 744740 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Either convention is fine of course, it just doesn't seem to be specified rigorously enough
< 1740261050 120696 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(when looking at http://bbgauge.info/brainfuck.html)
< 1740261117 573563 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. I should tighten up that entire page. TBH I should write a script to generate/check the first few values of those tables too.
< 1740261119 56786 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION lazy

< 1740261154 209639 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Still, I owe the community to do a good job. I'll put it on my task list.
> 1740261266 954591 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Bitchanger Busy beaver14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152447&oldid=152441 5* 03Int-e 5* (+107) 10clarifying the convention would help too.
> 1740263111 862598 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RainbowDash14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152448&oldid=145963 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+2) 10
> 1740263206 573127 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RainbowDash14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152449&oldid=152448 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (-1) 10/* Esolangs I've made. */
< 1740264082 953156 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: so I think the most common way to count cycles in BF is for the loop-test-and-jump to be one cycle regardless of whether the test indicates a jump or no jump, and regardless of how it's split up between the [ and ]
< 1740264114 353930 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's commonly formulated as "[ jumps to after the ] if the cell is 0; ] jumps to after the [ if the cell is non-0" which is nicely symmetrical
< 1740264145 74203 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(BF Joust, where the timing matters, specifically mandates timing it like that – other implementations often don't specify it because it isn't observable)
< 1740264255 613874 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm… suppose you have an entirely unsynchronized multithreaded BF, with the threads sharing a tape but not the tape pointer, and instructions running in an arbitrary sequence (not simultaneously, but there's no constraint on how many times one thread can act before the other one does) – is it possible to write a 100% reliable mutex or semaphore, or will there always be some timing combination that defeats it?
< 1740264326 232851 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are communication primitives you can write, like "wait for the other thread to reach a certain point in its computation" and message channels, but you can't obviously build mutexes out of those
> 1740264400 502333 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ASCII Code14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152450&oldid=152050 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (-1) 10
< 1740264558 223988 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I don't think you can do that with vanilla brainfuck, you need to add some rule for it, either a new command, or defining something that used to be undefined behavior like some underflow/overflow
< 1740264594 714282 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I can't think of a way to do it, but this is the sort of thing where it might be hard to prove that it's impossible
< 1740264744 220629 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually, I have a promising start of an approach but it doesn't solve the problem on its own: thread 1 locks a mutex by checking it's zero, incrementing it, then checking it's zero – thread 2 does the same but decrements
< 1740264797 93882 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think there's any way for both threads to think they've locked it, but this doesn't solve the problem of recovering if there's contention, because if one thread could discover that the other has tried to lock it without discovering whether the other thread knows about the contention or whether it took the lock
< 1740264817 874231 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* checking it's zero, incrementing it, then checking it's nonzero
> 1740265415 970881 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152451&oldid=148427 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+165) 10/* Hello, world! */
> 1740265911 477514 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152452&oldid=152451 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+11) 10
< 1740266371 984987 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, that might work
> 1740268696 81251 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152453&oldid=152452 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+235) 10/* Hello, world! */
> 1740269243 850243 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152454&oldid=152453 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+142) 10/* Examples */
> 1740271028 293851 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello,world!14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152455 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+1396) 10Created page with "{{Distinguish/Confusion|Hello, world!}} '''Hello,world!''' is a joke esolang by [[User:MihaiEso]], it is a [[Nope.]] derivative and a [[no-code esolang]]. Every program is a [[Hello, world!]] program, so the esolang is ''completely'' unusable for programming. ==Na
> 1740271077 959890 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello,world!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152456&oldid=152455 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+77) 10/* Name */
> 1740271113 561556 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello,world!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152457&oldid=152456 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+13) 10/* Name */
> 1740271203 653737 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello,world!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152458&oldid=152457 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+50) 10
> 1740271235 811127 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello, world!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152459&oldid=120635 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+80) 10
> 1740271269 889377 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello, world!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152460&oldid=152459 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+1) 10
> 1740271600 95773 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:MihaiEso14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152461&oldid=152052 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+72) 10
> 1740271677 67205 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152462&oldid=151939 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+104) 10
> 1740273358 206325 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello,world!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152463&oldid=152458 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+281) 10
> 1740275412 995343 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EternalGolf14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152464&oldid=152409 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+210) 10
> 1740275516 411881 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EternalGolf14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152465&oldid=152464 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+8) 10
> 1740275933 783543 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152466&oldid=152331 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1058) 10/* Join to EternalGolf development team? */ new section
> 1740277691 109943 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ORS14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152467 5* 03None1 5* (+884) 10Created page with "'''ORS''' (Objects R Succinct), designed by [[User:None1]] in [[:category:2025|2025]], is an [[object-oriented]] language that has a very succinct syntax, like most other [[esoteric programming language]]s. ==Examples==  ===[[Hello, world!]]===  p:  sc Writer;  Writer.write("H
> 1740278009 686740 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152468&oldid=152437 5* 03Lykaina 5* (-73) 10/* Core Instructions */ updating to current
> 1740278308 557447 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth/ASCII-Core14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152469&oldid=152309 5* 03Lykaina 5* (-27) 10/* ASCII-Sorted Core Instructions */
> 1740278355 725396 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152470&oldid=152466 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+2860) 10
< 1740278467 349161 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I barely played any of it yet.
> 1740279103 172257 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth/Examples14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152471&oldid=152438 5* 03Lykaina 5* (-930) 10Updating to current.
> 1740279280 209446 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152472&oldid=152468 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+0) 10/* Jumping */ updating to current
< 1740279901 725663 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1740279932 81291 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 JOIN #esolangs op_4 :op_4
< 1740280656 618508 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :Freed up the Afth instructions <,>,^,and v
> 1740280805 452683 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lythnology14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152473 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+6646) 10Create Lythnology
< 1740280826 81432 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :it no longer has an increment, decrement, or shift-right
< 1740280856 868670 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :it does, however, have a shift-left-and-increment now
> 1740280859 935282 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RainbowDash14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152474&oldid=152449 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+17) 10/* Esolangs I've made. */
< 1740280939 477059 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :shl was moved to 0, shl_inc is at 1
< 1740281038 349382 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina PRIVMSG #esolangs :on the plus side, if i want to make a funge...
> 1740281161 767549 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lythnology14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152475&oldid=152473 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+437) 10/* Example Programs */
> 1740281230 48274 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lythnology14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152476&oldid=152475 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+58) 10/* Ten bottles of beer on the wall */
> 1740281283 351430 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lythnology14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152477&oldid=152476 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+96) 10/* Printing */
> 1740281297 443816 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lythnology14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152478&oldid=152477 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+4) 10/* Printing */
> 1740281500 142007 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152479&oldid=152344 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+183) 10/* Functions */
> 1740281526 67943 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152480&oldid=152216 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-103) 10yawn... adding [[braingrate]] I guess...
> 1740281568 655086 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152481&oldid=152479 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+16) 10/* Linked List */
< 1740282257 947498 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina QUIT :Quit: Leaving
> 1740282546 566757 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03RainbowDash 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:Lythnolo.png10]]"
> 1740282791 564925 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lythnology14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152483&oldid=152478 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+298) 10
> 1740282818 25163 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lythnology14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152484&oldid=152483 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+29) 10
> 1740282868 977848 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lythnology14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152485&oldid=152484 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+28) 10
> 1740283436 738462 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152486&oldid=152472 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (-39) 10Add interpreter
> 1740283894 684884 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello,world!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152487&oldid=152463 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+175) 10/* Name */ Added some names
> 1740283974 821523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152488&oldid=152454 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+27) 10/* Hello, world! */
> 1740284240 623018 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template talk:InDebated14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152489 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+215) 10Created page with "Can I create this template? 
 :''This is currently being debated. It may be changed in the future.''[[Category:Being-Debated]][[Category:Being-Debated| ]] 
"
> 1740285936 975107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello,world!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152490&oldid=152487 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+50) 10
> 1740286150 644340 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Aadenboy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152491&oldid=152330 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+85) 10
< 1740288897 885604 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I read the documentation for ASN.1 BER library in OpenBSD, and it seems like the documentation is not complete, and seems to be limited in some ways.
< 1740288933 689246 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :One problem seems to be the OID structure, which seems unnecessary to me. Decoding OIDs into sequences of numbers is rarely necessary, except to display them, and this structure imposes unnecessary limits on OIDs, too.
< 1740289075 154544 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(If you only want to check if it is valid, this can be done by the regular expression: /^(([\x81-\xFF][\x80-\xFF]*)?[\x00-\x7F])+$/ although it does not need to be implemented as a regular expression.)
< 1740289099 569788 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Maybe, I can write to them about that, if I know who to write to?)
> 1740290525 199102 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Aadenboy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152492&oldid=152491 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+55) 10canon
> 1740290764 964345 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template talk:InDebated14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152493&oldid=152489 5* 03Unname4798 5* (+247) 10
> 1740290772 825800 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:InDebated14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152494 5* 03Unname4798 5* (+174) 10Created page with ":''This is currently being debated. It may be changed in the future.''[[Category:Being-Debated]][[Category:Being-Debated| ]]"
> 1740291416 433189 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152495&oldid=151647 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+182) 10/* Category:Being-Debated */ new section
> 1740291460 742470 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Being-Debated14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152496 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+63) 10Created page with "This category is for the articles that currently being debated."
> 1740291778 985657 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Fizzie14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152497&oldid=134929 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1192) 10/* Babel plug-in */ new section
> 1740291850 471824 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152498&oldid=149308 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+77) 10