> 1743292897 657932 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07```14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154713&oldid=154712 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+1) 10Amended an orthographic mistake.
< 1743294228 249533 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:9865:6ec1:d353:2dc8 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
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> 1743298212 813698 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154714&oldid=154703 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+1344) 10/* Summary */
> 1743298725 545203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Shazun bhasfu 5*  10New user account
> 1743299179 200035 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SECIAEQBNJMPDIFZR14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154715 5* 03Esdraslov 5* (+2101) 10Created page with "SECIAEQBNJMPDIFZR (SEt C to a If A is EQuals to B aNd JuMP to D if b is ZeRo) is a [[OISC]] by [[User:Esdraslov]].  == How to code ==  === Printing ===  We need the usage of some variables like <code>IOI</code> (Input Output Index) to make our code better an
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< 1743307211 177797 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
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> 1743308804 943989 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154716&oldid=154691 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+222) 10
> 1743309218 562781 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SECIAEQBNJMPDIFZR14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154717&oldid=154715 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+47) 104 billion addresses each with 4 billion possible values is finite
> 1743309382 882574 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Insanity14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154718&oldid=116350 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+54) 10
> 1743309441 413615 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154719&oldid=154714 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+89) 10/* Example languages */
> 1743309592 570467 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Unsmiley14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154720 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+285) 10Created page with "== Computability ==  Since this can arbitrarily modify its own specification, could it be [[uncomputable]]? What are the limits of its self rewriting? Could it add a command which solves the halting problem? ~~~~"
> 1743310574 391981 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snowflake14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154721&oldid=105725 5* 03Ais523 5* (+32) 10see also [[Unsmiley]]
> 1743310581 72905 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unsmiley14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154722&oldid=154701 5* 03Ais523 5* (+33) 10see also [[Snowflake]]
< 1743311295 75379 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: How's this? https://gist.github.com/MostAwesomeDude/f31eff9e483a9e0223f14fb629c55755 I think it properly taunts the reader while assuring them that they don't understand what's going on.
< 1743311456 528577 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I'm not convinced BF is an A rather than a P, especially if you can't go left of the starting location
< 1743311534 674732 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: It's got a lovely monoid which produces a pile of symmetries. A compiler into BF has to choose e.g. how to move values from one cell to another.
< 1743311563 947985 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: oh, things like [>+<-] versus [->+<]
< 1743311576 448462 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I forgot that symmetry
< 1743311604 552687 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. Those give non-trivial automorphisms. Malbolge doesn't have anything quite so forgiving, because the automorphism has to act on the encrypted text.
< 1743311641 789230 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Thue as an F also seems like a stretch – I think you can meaningfully define the computational class of a Thue program, which seems wrong for an F
< 1743311691 226663 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, I meant complexity class and said the wrong thing
< 1743311752 76332 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess my intuition is "if the language lets you define both bubble sort and merge sort, and there's a way to tell them apart, the language is not operating only on functions"
< 1743311786 379499 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in any case, I think algorithms versus programs is a continuum rather than two clear categories, depending on how much symmetry there is
< 1743311818 471529 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :when compiling you can often choose options for symmetries one by one, rather than having to do it all at once
< 1743311946 422256 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, all of these languages require us to write programs. The difference is that some of them promise that some programs are equivalent to others.
< 1743312001 761702 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In a Brand F language, the programmer doesn't get a choice of algorithm. A Thue author has to confront genuine non-determinism, including perhaps adversarial or nemesis runtimes. A Prolog author can rely on WAM-style evaluation order.
< 1743312015 651069 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :during my PhD (and a little before) I was working with a functional hardware description language in which program equivalence was literally and concretely definable
< 1743312062 763884 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In a Brand P language, the programmer must specify any optimizations themselves, because the machine only cares about details and has no insight into its actions.
< 1743312070 396255 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was dealing with languages that had bounded memory, and knew it – and that meant that you could in theory translate your program into a finite state machine with I/O on the transitions
< 1743312098 516884 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the programs were equivalent if and only if those were equivalent (i.e. same I/O behaviour even if the state numbering didn't match or some states were duplicated)
< 1743312181 540921 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Nice. Sounds a lot like defunctionalization.
< 1743312207 142084 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Byzantine (demonic) Thue is not a concept I've thought about much before, except when defining Thue programs that work regardless of evaluation order in order to avoid questions about what Thue's evaluation order actually is
< 1743312261 354540 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think most people (who know about Thue) consider its evaluation order to be either angelic nondeterminism (i.e. "the interpreter makes choices that will cause the program to work correctly, maybe by evaluating all possibilities in parallel") or entirely random
< 1743312301 471579 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I believe (but may be incorrect) that it was originally intended to be the former, and that it has generally been interpreted as the latter by people writing for or implementing the language
< 1743312341 870040 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, I got kind of ruined by that one paper introducing adversarial quicksort. Really changed my views on what we mean when we say "choose" or "random" or "non-deterministic".
< 1743312439 634911 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :byzantine failures are such an interesting programming concept that feels very esoteric – although they have a fairly real-world usage, in considering how an attacker might attack a program
< 1743312499 593253 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but for, e.g., byzantine-failure-tolerant distributed systems, you have to consider that the failed node might send any possible sequence of bytes over the network, including sequences that contain, e.g., encryption keys that it doesn't know
< 1743312605 738394 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yep. We usually handle that by saying that a value is "unguessable" if it is, in fact, guessable. Very poor terminology. But the idea is that we assume unguessable values won't be guessed. In practice, we count the bits; 256 bits is fairly unguessable today.
< 1743312639 178303 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And then any capability-theoretic statement can be extended across a network by weakening unforgeability to unguessability.
< 1743312646 436675 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca JOIN #esolangs zzo38 :zzo38
> 1743312698 633783 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Infinite state machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154723&oldid=108021 5* 03Stkptr 5* (-1262) 10Replace it with actually correct information
< 1743312713 443572 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it would be nice if there were a concise term for "the probability of this ever being guessed within the useful life of the system is too low for us to worry about, even if there's a concerted computing effort made against it"
< 1743312759 222808 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sometimes we use the same "exponentially-unlikely" phrasing as physicists doing thermodynamics.
< 1743312783 999973 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Have we done thermodynamics of (Turing) machines here yet? It's a fun mind-bender.
< 1743312883 112908 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But yeah, this is nicer than the standard Gordian knot. For example, recently I saw folks arguing over whether ASLR is security by obscurity or not. The answer is no, because ASLR can be revealed using Kerchoff's principle, and the address layout is merely unguessable.
< 1743312929 393786 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I generally consider security to not be "by obscurity" if the thing that's obscure is randomized between sufficiently many symmetrical possibilities
< 1743312993 905938 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the reason security by obscurity doesn't work is the same reason that using single words that a human chose mentally as passwords doesn't work – the number of possibilities that a human is reasonably likely to think of is small enough that the chance of guessing them is unacceptably high
< 1743313119 213255 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw, I don't consider ASLR reliable, but the reason is different – the number of possibilities is too small for me to be comfortable that they won't be guessed
< 1743313171 82170 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it'd be more secure if there were a way to detect failed attempts and lock out the attacker, but often that isn't available for one reason or another, and ASLR has been broken before just by running the program repeatedly until you get the address you need
< 1743313195 493471 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and living with all the segfaults and other similar consequences all the times when the address rolled wrong
< 1743313223 32434 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(additionally, pointer leaks are semi-common – I wouldn't be confident that any given program had no pointer leaks unless the language was enforcing that somehow)
< 1743313293 113745 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And at that point, the language might as well enforce pointer hygiene to cut off the entire avenue of attack.
< 1743313423 553367 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Valgrind can detect some improper memory accesses and memory leaks. (I often find more memory leaks and invalid accesses in libraries called by my programs than in my programs themself, and when I do find them in my program I can usually correct them without so much difficulty)
< 1743313439 142175 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that ASLR has some advantages and disadvantages.
< 1743313535 875345 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: so I think Valgrind Memcheck doesn't work against the sort of attacks ASLR is designed to mitigate, unless it's able to notice a return address being overwritten
< 1743313554 91440 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because those attacks use only valid memory addresses that the program is able to access legitimately
< 1743313558 846231 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know whether or not valgrind detects that
< 1743313626 653134 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(maybe it is able to do so but not by default; there are some things that it does not do by default but you can add extra switches to do so)
< 1743313632 625256 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know either – my guess is no, but in theory it could notice a return-from-subroutine machine code command popping an address that wasn't written by a call-subroutine command
< 1743313659 533465 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although that would have a lot of false positives nowadays, now that Spectre is a problem that most OSes and compilers want to mitigate
< 1743313673 349833 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :In some programs (although, I think mostly written in assembly language rather than in C, probably), it is sometimes useful to use specific addresses for some things.
< 1743313761 601591 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :C compilers used to (and for some platforms still do) compile static and global variables to be stored at memory addresses hardcoded in the generated program, and sometimes also do that for the address of called functions (although it's hard to make that compatible with shared objects so usually they don't)
< 1743313796 547762 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(With my own idea of operating system design, the program is supposed to be guaranteed the same every time it is run if the program is the same and all input is the same, so ASLR will not be suitable. I have other ideas as well, though.)
< 1743313827 518345 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :x86-64 was a big improvement over x86 in that respect – it has an easy syntax for IP-relative memory addressing, which has most of the advantages of hardcoded addresses but is more compatible with ASLR
< 1743313849 42410 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although it doesn't allow randomizing the section containing the program code separately from the section containing static variables)
< 1743313897 498429 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it makes the shared object case easier, too
< 1743313929 966328 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and by "easy syntax" I mean easy in the machine code)
< 1743313935 353425 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, and IP-relative addressing can be helpful for other reasons as well, if you have both absolute and relative addressing available
< 1743314028 400532 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :x86-64 does still have absolute addressing although the syntax is a bit more complex (they used the simplest syntax for relative, which I think was the right decision)
< 1743314084 745146 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :absolute addressing isn't so useful there because the commands can't take 64-bit immediate values, so the only addresses you can access absolutely are those in the bottom 4 GiB of memory
< 1743314103 512488 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(possibly the bottom 2 GiB if it's interpreted as a signed number, which it might be)
> 1743315423 876696 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07257-wrap brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154724&oldid=154641 5* 03Ais523 5* (+1197) 10unstub, cat, and use a more typical page structure
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< 1743319035 901951 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1743321737 631438 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07R + S14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154725&oldid=154678 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+75) 10
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> 1743327351 353746 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154726&oldid=154575 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-32) 10
> 1743327388 803012 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154727&oldid=154726 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-13) 10
> 1743328114 272152 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154728&oldid=154727 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-6) 10
< 1743328134 937468 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Heya
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< 1743330242 860693 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Oh this is a bit wild... yes, offsets are signed but if you use 32 bit addressing you get a zero-extended address. But also, virtual addresses are sign-extended. But Linux doesn't allow user space pointers to have the topmost bit set. Otherwise you'd get 6GB of absolute addressable memory. Thirdly, there are some special instructions to load from an absolute 64 bit address.
> 1743332396 524740 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Apollo(PSTF)14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154729 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+3690) 10Created page with "Apollo is a Brainfuck derivative designed by PSTF.  This is inspired from [[Artemis]], [[Brainfuck 2.0]], [[Masqualia]], [[BFInfinity]], Javascript, and [[Brainfuck extended]].  = Syntax Overview = As a Brainfuck derivative, Apollo is [[Turing-complete]], has
> 1743332690 29423 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Apollo14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154730 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+292) 10Created page with "There are two esolangs calls Apollo in history or currently: # [[User:Hppavilion1/UniFunge]](This is already called Apollo, but then changed to Unifunge) by [[User:Hppavilion1]], which is a fungeoid. # [[Apollo(PSTF)]] by [[User:PrySigneToFry]], which is a Brainfuck
> 1743332735 658466 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154731&oldid=154707 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+13) 10
< 1743333955 748031 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The IPv6 story has stalled a little, except that my ISP's support replied that "we've escalated to the relevant team for further investigation and will let you know", followed by an automated email saying (basically) "you didn't reply to our earlier email, if we don't hear back in 48 hours we'll assume you no longer need help and close your ticket", which was a little rude.
< 1743334223 99330 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :So I sent them back a second list of random debugging things I've tried (other Europe DO datacenters also fail; those also get routed through LONAP; non-Europe DO networks are fine; both the DHCPv6 delegated prefix and the single address assigned to the router behave the same; LONAP's looking-glass service shows that the router sending the address-unreachable errors last changed up/down state the
< 1743334225 782749 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :same day the problems started; traffic to another VPS that goes through LINX instead of LONAP works fine) mostly just to keep it alive.
< 1743334407 975222 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, DO support just sent a similar thing, except their timer is 3 days rather than 2.
< 1743336171 345953 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It would be nice if you could still tell IPv6 packets which way they should go, to be able to better test these things, but they deprecated that option long ago -- https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5095.txt -- and I imagine most places wouldn't have respected it anyway.
< 1743336398 397072 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"<ais523> a functional hardware description language in which program equivalence was literally and concretely definable / bounded memory" => did the hardware also have no nondeterminism in cases that you'd call undefined behavior? 
< 1743336778 331528 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie; "to the relevant team" sounds like a deliberately obscure answer, they don't even want to tell you what department. did they escalate to their criminal reporting department because they think you need IPV6 for money laundering or sending spam? their mental health department because they think you're crazy? their team with the shovels and optical cables to lay new optical cable next to your house?
< 1743336886 789422 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"if we don't hear back in 48 hours" => I assume it's enough if they hear back that you did the same test again and still have the same symptoms, eg. can't access the server through IPV6 from your connection but hosts in other ISPs can
< 1743338298 215885 :CanisCorvus!~CanisCorv@shef-17-b2-v4wan-169232-cust98.vm3.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] CanisCorvus
> 1743344398 887459 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03PkmnQ 5*  10moved [[02Apollo(PSTF)10]] to [[Apollo (PSTF)]]: Misspelled title: space
< 1743344452 613191 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1743344837 805667 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Apollo14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154734&oldid=154730 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1) 10
> 1743344921 292497 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Apollo(PSTF)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154735&oldid=154733 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+59) 10Removed redirect to [[Apollo (PSTF)]]
< 1743346172 92619 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1743346217 830974 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :<b_jonas> did the hardware also have no nondeterminism in cases that you'd call undefined behavior? ← there was no UB in the language (it was somewhat easier than normal to avoid because the langauge didn't support division, just addition, subtraction, multiplication and bitwise operators)
< 1743346256 611933 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the research was primarily about statically avoiding race conditions (interestingly, Rust ended up doing the same thing, basically the same way, a couple of years later)
< 1743346274 983799 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so we didn't have problems with those either
< 1743346480 821914 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see
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< 1743347840 544613 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2025-03-30.html#lFb was for you
< 1743348879 520960 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:9990:df71:bfb8:e2a2 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1743348986 821276 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07WhatLang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154736&oldid=150865 5* 03DGCK81LNN 5* (-4) 10
< 1743349685 74238 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
> 1743349712 10907 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07WhatLang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154737&oldid=154736 5* 03DGCK81LNN 5* (-40) 10
< 1743349811 378779 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
> 1743349862 438170 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07WhatLang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154738&oldid=154737 5* 03DGCK81LNN 5* (+13) 10/* Koishi runtime specific */
> 1743351249 219802 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Esdraslov14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154739 5* 03Esdraslov 5* (+195) 10Created page with "I am [[User:Esdraslov]]  == My Esosteric programming languages ==  [[CDE2+]]    EDE  [[HeXPlik]]   _!dlroW ,olleH-=p[<p]/  {{{{{{{{{{{{{[.}]  [[SECIAEQBNJMPDIFZR]]   IOI 108 108 IOI+1"
< 1743351652 430219 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1743351676 936860 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: ooh, so it's even more complicated than I expected
< 1743354293 694865 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I didn't know that either. :)
< 1743355114 601473 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:9990:df71:bfb8:e2a2 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1743356202 928146 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:9990:df71:bfb8:e2a2 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1743357310 390642 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION finds a yacc grammar which produces exponentially large compiled output: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/278992

< 1743357410 178877 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I like this one because it exploits properties of the target virtual machine – almost all yacc implementations compile via deterministic push-down automata, and this program can't be represented in less than exponential code by a DPDA
< 1743357448 259557 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so in a way the output is "inherently" exponentially large
< 1743357817 861438 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm wondering how non-yaccs handle this – I suspect backtracking parsers might do quite well as they can handle the entire program in only 24 backtracks
< 1743358565 439447 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1743358595 807635 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: is this one of those that get much easier to parse if the input is reversed?
< 1743358628 716670 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yes, but you can work around that by writing the reverse grammar too and concatenating them with a `2` between them
< 1743358631 365581 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so that reversing doesn't help
< 1743358743 857765 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :as for compiler bombs, I recently tried what happens if you give rustc an exponential size macro_rules macro expansion. it just blows up, doesn't seem to have limits stopping that.
> 1743358796 127065 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ractangle14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154740&oldid=151770 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-11) 10/* Other things */
< 1743358823 258520 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the threat model for DOS attacks on compilers is interesting
< 1743358848 485695 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :most of the time you assume that any code you're going to compile, you're also going to run unsandboxed, so there isn't a need to guard against source code that maliciously attacks the compiler
< 1743358908 243392 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have seen some compilers that don't make that assumption, e.g. Rust's `regex` crate intentionally aims for performance that's linear-time in the length of the regex plus the length of its input, meaning that malicious end-user-supplied regexes can't cause a DOS
< 1743358932 818938 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah
< 1743359009 230541 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's this DOS  I recently found that is not related to a compiler but should be running sandboxed => https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2025-03.html#lDU
> 1743359012 656882 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07L-system14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154741&oldid=154670 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+19) 10/* Python implementation (D2L) */ Support empty string emission
< 1743359063 396787 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, maybe the "prevent this web page showing additional dialogs" option should be used in that case too, if it isn't already
< 1743359083 96578 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you don't get to choose options between the dialogs
< 1743359095 314377 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the dialog is modal so you can't choose anything during the dialog
< 1743359104 314867 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :can't even close the tab
< 1743359220 335410 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the option is normally placed *in* the dialog so that you can select it even if the dialog is modal
< 1743359227 588592 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but maybe Firefox can't adjust the file-save dialog like that
< 1743359275 340901 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :is it too heretical to suggest that the problem here is JS ;-)
< 1743359296 78692 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :does that attack even require JS?
< 1743359309 38424 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :how else would you trigger *multiple* downloads at the same time?
< 1743359322 507782 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a frameset, perhaps?
< 1743359329 94048 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm maybe
< 1743359365 143599 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :just frames
< 1743359402 979944 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think everyone learns the frames trick from sourceforge, it shows a frame to be able to show you an advertisment-riddled page and send a download at the same time
< 1743359405 274115 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.195.25.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1743359439 518643 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( what's sourceforge ) (scnr)
< 1743359474 665937 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, you can't really modify the Windows save dialog that way, at least not in a way that's transparent to the users. you could put a fake save format in the list, but users might not find it.
< 1743359503 999056 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but firefox could ask a question after you cancel a save dialog
> 1743359535 26033 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07HeXPlik14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154742&oldid=154706 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+29) 10Seems TC enough
< 1743359541 34729 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like after that you have to click somewhere to show more save dialogs
< 1743359550 779092 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it does something like that with popups
< 1743359611 894440 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/06/under-new-management-sourceforge-moves-to-put-badness-in-past/ ...I wonder how that went
< 1743359632 618197 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I haven't touched the site since 2015.
< 1743359864 665507 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night
> 1743359889 747541 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07R + S14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154743&oldid=154725 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+62) 10Combinational, no category for that
< 1743360483 179815 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also large sizes reminds me, https://sqlite.org/limits.html says that in theory sqlite can handle databases as large as 256 tebibytes, but “This particular upper bound is untested since the developers do not have access to hardware capable of reaching this limit.”
< 1743360524 120245 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :these days 256 tebibytes file size should be reachable so they might be able to test it
< 1743360630 86822 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :date announced, SIGBOVIK conference is on 2025-04-04 http://sigbovik.org/2025/
< 1743361647 599269 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, if a server did have 256 TiB of storage, how long would it take to fill it all?
< 1743361663 469521 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it wouldn't even be that long, given that it's only TiB, not PiB or XiB
< 1743361684 195203 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :people do gigabyte-scale things all the time, this is only 1000 times as much
< 1743362548 686695 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :The other possibility might be to make up a VFS to make up the data as it is being read, if it can be made up according to the proper file format and trees
< 1743362907 702238 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it might not be very fast, but I don't think that's a problem here
> 1743364345 45071 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:HiIam14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154744&oldid=131148 5* 03HiIam 5* (+79) 10Well, it's fine... I guess.
> 1743364441 527496 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:HiIam14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154745&oldid=154744 5* 03HiIam 5* (+4) 10Not a big change...
> 1743365123 495718 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Funciton14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154746&oldid=154395 5* 03Timwi 5* (+169) 10Regular expressions: add  (used in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt_8O7ZHmFQ), and change layout
> 1743367147 578695 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154747&oldid=154731 5* 03Buckets 5* (+16) 10
> 1743367201 75199 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154748&oldid=154708 5* 03Buckets 5* (+15) 10
> 1743367216 983235 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07```14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154749&oldid=154713 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+0) 10Amended a word's case to its minuscular form.
> 1743367218 164866 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Misprefix14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154750 5* 03Buckets 5* (+653) 10Created page with "Misprefix is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2024.  {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | Cre- || Create a New command. |- | Ed- || Name the Newest command. |- | Je- || End the Naming process. |- | Yon- || Set the speci
> 1743367361 965928 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Burn14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154751&oldid=153081 5* 03BestCoder 5* (+67) 10
> 1743367700 391745 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:Stubnoinfo14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154752&oldid=129874 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+43) 10
> 1743368126 717635 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Misprefix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154753&oldid=154750 5* 03Buckets 5* (+211) 10
> 1743368677 340754 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Abba14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154754&oldid=152646 5* 03Buckets 5* (+9) 10
> 1743368691 801188 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Abba14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154755&oldid=154754 5* 03Buckets 5* (+0) 10
> 1743369223 711396 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Uhidklol14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154756&oldid=154154 5* 03Juanp32 5* (+302) 10
> 1743370112 950306 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:ight14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154757&oldid=148910 5* 03Buckets 5* (+283) 10
> 1743370577 970683 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Happy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154758&oldid=154343 5* 03Buckets 5* (+35) 10
> 1743370996 349410 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Misprefix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154759&oldid=154753 5* 03Buckets 5* (-1) 10
> 1743371461 542852 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sleep.14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154760&oldid=154456 5* 03Buckets 5* (+66) 10
> 1743371878 228971 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:ight14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154761&oldid=154757 5* 03Buckets 5* (-19) 10
< 1743372139 819030 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:9990:df71:bfb8:e2a2 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1743374402 97378 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PTL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154762&oldid=117645 5* 03Buckets 5* (+0) 10/* Truth machine */
< 1743378227 515544 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1743378237 873283 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
> 1743378863 339537 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BitTurn14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154763&oldid=150583 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+358) 10
> 1743379012 284611 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Albuqer chng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154764&oldid=148764 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+28) 10
> 1743379150 288954 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Domino14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154765&oldid=54408 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+24) 10Unknown class
> 1743379177 915144 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EISC14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154766&oldid=37959 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+23) 10