tag is not identical to HTML's 
 tag), b) we really shouldn't be encoura
> 1740801392 184753 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mutzerium14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152977&oldid=152943 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+749) 10
< 1740807575 36294 :chomwitt!~alex@2a02:587:7a13:5400:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd JOIN #esolangs chomwitt :realname
> 1740808891 7024 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03I am islptng 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:SLetIcon.jpg10]]": Icon for SLet
> 1740808931 85895 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SLet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152979&oldid=152895 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+25) 10
> 1740808939 241026 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SLet (Old 3)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152980&oldid=152594 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+25) 10
< 1740810373 920995 :madcabbage!~cabbage@207.148.176.79 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
> 1740812542 771410 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mutzerium14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152981&oldid=152977 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+384) 10
< 1740813015 981896 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1740813076 39070 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1740813097 588388 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1740813162 954998 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Mutzerium14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152982 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+760) 10Created page with "Some mistake: # You can completely remove "pair" since you have "tuple". # You have got one "reveal" from original SLet, which is the combination of your additional command "randrange" and "choice". Please remove one of them.  
~~~~"
< 1740816142 478827 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
> 1740816785 43749 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152983&oldid=152930 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+604) 10
> 1740821101 167029 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152984&oldid=152183 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1217) 10/* StormLang and Emojic */ new section
> 1740821122 176360 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152985&oldid=152984 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+0) 10Fixed time
> 1740823687 608080 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Mutzerium14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152986&oldid=152982 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1121) 10
> 1740823728 862535 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Arkeor 5*  10New user account
> 1740823776 134423 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152987&oldid=152985 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+192) 10/* StormLang and Emojic */
> 1740823841 912538 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mutzerium14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152988&oldid=152981 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (-56) 10
> 1740823852 905324 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152989&oldid=152987 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+1) 10/* grade 2pi+0.01 (6.3) */
> 1740823897 796444 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152990&oldid=152989 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-192) 10/* StormLang and Emojic */
< 1740824105 949099 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1740827342 548468 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152991&oldid=151371 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+5) 10/* Arithmetic & Logical */
< 1740827524 949203 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1740827573 819764 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: and I think inkscape uses a save file format that's both a displayable SVG and has extra data for Inkscape 
< 1740828108 226028 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :having looked inside once or twice, yeah that's what it is
< 1740828424 798776 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :HTML is good for this too, you can use id and class and data-* attributes to put extra information in the html response of your specific web service that users can automatically extract, even while the HTML is made for display
> 1740829546 664366 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152992&oldid=152935 5* 03Arkeor 5* (+41) 10/* Introductions */
< 1740830795 196315 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1740835348 296037 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
> 1740837772 464708 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152993&oldid=152983 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1543) 10
> 1740838101 367941 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited/L'internationale14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152994 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+3117) 10Created page with "{{Back|UserEdited}}  
 
   
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 ..."
> 1740838180 434544 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152995&oldid=152993 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+90) 10
> 1740838673 260916 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152996&oldid=151813 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+43) 10
> 1740838819 392309 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mutzerium14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152997&oldid=152988 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+51) 10
> 1740840585 331543 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152998&oldid=152995 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+0) 10
< 1740840940 867865 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.185.24.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :
> 1740841787 600369 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mutzerium14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152999&oldid=152997 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (-38) 10
< 1740845149 432547 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1740845658 36738 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1740846469 960585 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153000&oldid=150001 5* 0347 5* (-9) 10
> 1740846669 309240 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153001&oldid=135449 5* 0347 5* (-70) 10
> 1740846742 344689 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153002&oldid=153001 5* 0347 5* (+118) 10/* discord thingy */
> 1740846843 498415 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07(mark14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153003&oldid=152581 5* 0347 5* (+50) 10
< 1740848703 252584 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: As long as we're talking of those designs, some file formats encourage tucking away resources. Executables and PDFs are good examples; another fun one is PNG.
< 1740848933 398970 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :For example here's an ontology diagram that I made: https://corbinsimpson.com/danlu.png To make it machine-readable, there is a "chunk zaHa at offset 0x1bc40, length 777" according to pngcheck, which contains packed JSON.
< 1740848985 631805 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :PNG is just a sequence of chunks. You can add your own chunk and define its usage flags inline; pngcheck says that `zaHa` is "unknown private, ancillary, safe-to-copy chunk".
< 1740850454 288099 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah
< 1740850772 462263 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca JOIN #esolangs zzo38 :zzo38
< 1740851008 16214 :chomwitt!~alex@2a02:587:7a13:5400:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1740851976 810791 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Another idea I have with a version control system is to allow multiple types of user authentication for remote access, such as password, HMAC, and X.509. For a repository on the same computer that you do not have permission to access directly, you can also use SCM_CREDENTIALS. (Each kind has its own advantages and disadvantages. These could be used in other kind of systems too, not only version controls)
< 1740852071 402436 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(They would not necessarily all be implemented at first, nor would all implementations necessarily support all uses (and some might have their own nonstandard methods), but some can be useful for different uses.)
< 1740852128 355930 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Password-based authentication seems most common in most programs and the others are not common, although I think HMAC and X.509 are both useful methods in some cases and avoids some of the problems of using passwords.)
< 1740852573 228811 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. Because cryptographically-secure strings are unguessable, we can treat them as a sort of capability; so e.g. git commit hashes are capabilities for checking out a particular revision of a tree, as well as all of its history.
< 1740852597 374519 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So there's non-trivial access patterns that could be enabled with multiple avenues of authentication.
< 1740853973 914869 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, the cryptographic hashes are helpful. That is not what I meant by user authentication, although it is helpful too; you can verify that the file is correct if you already know the hash, as well as other advantages.
< 1740855975 15385 :madcabbage!~cabbage@108.61.194.151 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
> 1740858185 397954 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03----- 5*  10New user account
> 1740858404 7787 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153004&oldid=152992 5* 03----- 5* (+39) 10
> 1740858414 421644 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:-----14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153005 5* 03----- 5* (+181) 10Created page with "hi im -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"
< 1740858526 925411 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1740860896 172343 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.185.24.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
> 1740863029 334256 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153006&oldid=152960 5* 03Buckets 5* (+39) 10
> 1740863036 351524 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153007&oldid=152961 5* 03Buckets 5* (+38) 10
> 1740863048 362283 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Palindrome (language)14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153008 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1076) 10Created page with ": ''Not to be confused with [[Palindrome]]'' : Palindrome is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2020, Where there is A restriction that Everything in the code Has To Be palindromic. {| class="wikitable" ! Commands !! Instructio
> 1740863111 557455 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Palindrome14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153009&oldid=137918 5* 03Buckets 5* (+56) 10
> 1740863616 679526 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153010&oldid=152998 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+16) 10smaller
> 1740863667 782341 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153011&oldid=153010 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+15) 10
> 1740863706 281065 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153012&oldid=153011 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+15) 10
> 1740863736 788609 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153013&oldid=153012 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10
> 1740863773 595383 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153014&oldid=153013 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+15) 10
> 1740864349 250142 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Palindrome14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153015&oldid=153009 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-8) 10template
> 1740864409 281534 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Palindrome (language)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153016&oldid=153008 5* 03Buckets 5* (+378) 10
> 1740864918 729123 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153017&oldid=152970 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+353) 10/* Expressions */
> 1740864944 392038 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sleep.14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153018&oldid=152648 5* 03Buckets 5* (+203) 10
> 1740865081 28224 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Palindrome (language)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153019&oldid=153016 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-47) 10I don't think distinction is required here
> 1740865111 598765 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153020&oldid=153017 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+31) 10/* Predefined functions */
> 1740865202 878536 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Palindrome14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153021&oldid=153015 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+11) 10
> 1740865316 419275 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153022&oldid=153020 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+23) 10/* Expressions */
< 1740865363 15397 :tromp!~textual@2a02:a210:cba:8500:dc22:4f8f:98d9:547 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1740865453 216399 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153023&oldid=153022 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+1) 10/* Assignments */
< 1740868234 16281 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1740868991 70515 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1740871930 176479 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
> 1740878556 382139 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Foldy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153024&oldid=151682 5* 03Squareroot12621 5* (+163) 10Respond to Calculus is fun
< 1740879608 207490 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1740880046 718492 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153025&oldid=153014 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+1) 10fix
> 1740880808 96233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mutzerium14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153026&oldid=152999 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+157) 10
< 1740884702 777480 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1740884733 617189 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 JOIN #esolangs op_4 :op_4
> 1740884774 367670 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153027&oldid=153023 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+277) 10/* Assignments */
> 1740885137 879224 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153028&oldid=153027 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+110) 10/* Predefined functions */
> 1740885372 855284 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153029&oldid=153028 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+81) 10/* Pointer manipulation */
> 1740885404 605683 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153030&oldid=153029 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (-8) 10/* Memory */
> 1740885538 275128 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153031&oldid=153030 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+18) 10/* Linked list */
> 1740886149 774103 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153032&oldid=153031 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+376) 10/* Custom functions */
> 1740886199 106812 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153033&oldid=153032 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (-1) 10/* Instructions */
> 1740886210 381428 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153034&oldid=153033 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+9) 10/* Memory */
> 1740886296 830575 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153035&oldid=153034 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (-31) 10/* Instructions */
> 1740887595 780807 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Iterate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153036&oldid=150735 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+1245) 10/* arbitrary memory */ new section
< 1740888851 64388 :madcabbage!~cabbage@108.61.194.151 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1740888904 481082 :madcabbage!~cabbage@207.148.176.79 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1740889814 383636 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1740890263 629566 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153037&oldid=152876 5* 03H33T33 5* (+5) 10
> 1740890292 255837 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153038&oldid=153037 5* 03H33T33 5* (-19) 10
< 1740891259 219071 :nitrix!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.9.1 - https://znc.in
> 1740891614 249801 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mutzerium14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153039&oldid=153026 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+0) 10
> 1740891790 587580 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mutzerium14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153040&oldid=153039 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+210) 10
< 1740891999 522080 :nitrix!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix JOIN #esolangs nitrix :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1740892708 652134 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mutzerium14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153041&oldid=153040 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+27) 10
> 1740892742 575130 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mutzerium14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153042&oldid=153041 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+29) 10
> 1740893156 467561 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mutzerium/STL14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153043 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+3075) 10Created page with "{{Back|Mutzerium}}  Mutzerium also has standard libraries.  = Math library = The Math standard library mainly supports some mathematical operations. Its module name is "math". == Trigonometric function == 
 sin          | Get the sine value of a number. 
> 1740894475 429441 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mutzerium14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153044&oldid=153042 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+28) 10
< 1740895842 474075 :madcabbage!~cabbage@207.148.176.79 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1740899411 640846 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1740899449 999608 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1740899496 154913 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1740906520 246567 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in
< 1740906571 628804 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 JOIN #esolangs slavfox :slavfox
> 1740908703 796604 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153045 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+981) 10Created page with "This isn't really faithful to what you wanted, I would guess, but in theory, the language could interpret the bytes of that code block as binary bits, where 0 means switch the instruction and 1 means execute (turning tarpit). Populate with enough instructions and it's
< 1740908849 787973 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1740909670 435839 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153046&oldid=152727 5* 03XxXaXxX 5* (+22) 10Added Super Ratt Bros
> 1740910000 73230 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Super Ratt 6414]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153047 5* 03XxXaXxX 5* (+178) 10Created page with "Super Ratt 64 is an extended form of Super Ratt Bros. It includes front and back codes {| class="wikitable" |+ Extensions |- ! Command !! Corrat |- | Front || f |- | Back || b |}"
> 1740910031 167059 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:XxXaXxX14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153048&oldid=130015 5* 03XxXaXxX 5* (+0) 10
> 1740910216 907142 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153049&oldid=153046 5* 03XxXaXxX 5* (+20) 10Added Super Ratt 64
> 1740910311 948512 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07It's Just Perl!14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153050 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+1417) 10Created page with "'''It's Just Perl''' is a dumb OISC by [[User:BoundedBeans]] where It's Just Perl!  ==The instruction==  It's Just Perl! A B C D E F (where A-F are numbers)  * Using A as a starting address, with B pointing to a number of characters to read, do a Perl eval 
> 1740910341 561116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153051&oldid=153006 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+22) 10
> 1740910371 401926 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:BoundedBeans14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153052&oldid=151780 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+50) 10
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> 1740930310 295387 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BitChanger Busy beaver/Proof14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153057&oldid=153056 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+707) 10
> 1740931908 975683 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BitChanger Busy beaver/Proof14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153058&oldid=153057 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (-2) 10/* Terminology and other useful stuff */
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< 1740944448 746982 :Everything!~Everythin@195.138.86.118 JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
> 1740945952 174434 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03FurCantCodeAnything 5*  10New user account
> 1740947351 652036 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153060&oldid=153004 5* 03FurCantCodeAnything 5* (+136) 10
> 1740947576 393611 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:FurCantCodeAnything14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153061 5* 03FurCantCodeAnything 5* (+280) 10Created page with "== DANGER == This person is EXTREMLEY DANGEROUS, and WILL recommend stupid ideas. They are also a "sweet summer child" as the masses say because they do not know a single thing about coding  '''Coding is dead and we have killed it.'''  redACT
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< 1740948572 942782 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1740948987 980431 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Funciton14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153062&oldid=151248 5* 03Timwi 5* (+126) 10: Consecutive pairs, written for AoC 2024 D2 pt1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNG45WkMCO8)
< 1740949246 909205 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
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> 1740951051 676335 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07G+*^n14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153065 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1413) 10Created page with "{{Lowercase}} {{wrongtitle|title=:g+*^n (or :g+*n)}} :g+*^n (Or :g+*n) (Pronounced Colongplusasteriskcarotn, or Lusaste) is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2021. (The rack Pointer will start at the top of the Infinite 
> 1740951113 516166 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07G+*^n14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153066&oldid=153065 5* 03Buckets 5* (+21) 10
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> 1740956890 433316 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Buckets 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:Fontmess Logo.jpg10]]": This is the logo for Fontmess/Fo''n''tm 1740960752 911861 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Community portal14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153079&oldid=153078 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-37) 10deadlink template
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< 1740965479 13644 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
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< 1740981595 844013 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh no – Rust isn't inlining compiler intrinsics: https://godbolt.org/z/dKMfMj5aa
< 1740981613 904230 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I'll have to use inline asm (it doesn't guarantee to inline that, but hopefully it would in this case)
< 1740981666 430427 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the failure to inline is utterly performance-destroying because the calling convention clobbers all the vector registers, meaning that everything has to be spilled on every function call
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< 1740981964 425178 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, I see, some searches imply that this might be caused by the intrinsic being for an instruction that hasn't been proved to exist on the target processor – which is a problem if you want to be able to run instructions conditionally at runtime only if the feature is present
< 1740982085 337523 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had thought that the operating system should be allowed to emulate instructions that the processor doesn't have. However, that requires having a suitable version of the operating system, and does not help with improving the efficiency of the program; conditional loading would be another way, that it could conditionally load the appropriate function.
< 1740982121 559221 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Another way would be to use compiler switches to control if it is should use such instructions or not, and the default is the same computer that the compiler is running on.
< 1740982262 883723 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :A third way to fix this layering violation would be for the IR to absorb all intrinsics.
< 1740982333 514286 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :maeve (she/her)
< 1740982679 251463 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know what is "absorb all intrinsics" (or, maybe I do know, but not the specific wording)
< 1740982789 332012 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: so after investigating more, it doesn't work even with inline asm – the issue is that the compiler doesn't know for certain that the registers that would store the inputs and outputs to the instruction even exist
< 1740982798 885663 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and doesn't make that assumption based on the instruction having been used
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< 1740982834 644921 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Curious.
< 1740982835 12504 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :as such, it leaves the intrinsic in a separate function to make the register allocation possible
< 1740982875 454010 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: It just means that each intrinsic would be expressible directly in the IR. And not as an opaque reference but as the actual semantic action.
< 1740982897 721132 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: what I'm trying to do is to write a program that runs on both processors that don't have vector registers and processors that do, via checking at runtime to see if the registers are present and using their instructions only if they are
< 1740982927 627428 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Yes, that makes sense and yes it will help. (Also, like I expected, yes I do know but did not know the specific wording.)
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< 1740983062 587591 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://rust-lang.github.io/rust-project-goals/2025h1/simd-multiversioning.html says "Currently, generating efficient code for a specific SIMD ISAs requires annotating the function with appropriate attributes. This is incompatible with generating multiple versions through i.e. generics." – that's exactly what I'm trying to do and at least it's acknowledged as being impossible at the moment
< 1740983065 784695 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: No worries. The whole "absorb" and "reify" terminology is difficult to think about.
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< 1740983099 794851 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel like that terminology might be used in only a small corner of computer science, and there might be more widely known terms for the same contexts
< 1740983122 643428 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* same concepts
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< 1740983275 710719 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, it looks like it's going to be impossible to solve this at the type system level – I'll have to do it using macros I guess
< 1740983285 867691 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure, probably. And I'm open to learning. But this is the correct corner for using it; absorb v reify is what interpreters do.
< 1740983330 828050 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well there isn't an interpreter involved here – just a compiler
< 1740983364 766535 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I'm not sure the absorb vs. reify distinction even makes sense when using an intrinsic whose entire purpose is to compile to one specific asm instruction
< 1740983436 96169 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, if that really were its purpose, then it wouldn't compile for the non-vector target at all.
< 1740983459 212662 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's why I'm saying that it's a layering violation. The intrinsic fundamentally represents something that doesn't fit within the semantic landscape of the high-level language.
< 1740983525 417409 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If Rust had e.g. comptime, then there might be a reasonable push to fix the situation for all intrinsics.
< 1740983529 886695 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, the issue is that the target isn't known at compile time – the general nature of the target is known (i.e. a particular grouping of processor architectures) but some processors in that grouping have more registers than others, and instructions that deal with the extra registers
< 1740983559 419648 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can write code that runs in the common subset of all supported processors, and check to see which processor is actually in use
< 1740983582 488888 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then call into code that wouldn't work on all processors if you discover that you're running on a processor where it does work
< 1740983665 374553 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the problem here seems to be that a) the way Rust supports doing that is to require each function to explicitly specify the subset of processors it's designed to work on and b) this isn't connected to the type system in any way, so you can't pass a type that expects a processor-specific register to a function that runs on all processors
< 1740983682 486622 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and the page I linked is about fixing b)
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< 1740983730 827740 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. I guess that I'm talking about fixing (a). It would help if Rust would not use words like "function" to denote procedures.
< 1740983788 651993 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, the traditional distinction was that functions have a return value and procedures don't – most modern languages merge the concepts and call the merged concept a "function"
< 1740983810 86204 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is possibly regrettable wording in that it doesn't match "function" from mathematics, but calling them "procedures" instead will just confuse people who wonder how they can have a return value
< 1740983812 507792 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :maeve (she/her)
< 1740983866 643974 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(especially because in many cases, but not all, they do match the mathematical concept of a function in practice)
< 1740983867 611068 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, that's not what I mean. I mean that Rust equivocates over whether its callable units are mappings from inputs to outputs (functions) or sequences of instructions for the machine (procedures).
< 1740983926 966123 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in the source code, they're input → output mappings with possible side effects (I'm generally an advocate for including the side effects as part of the inputs and outputs, so that they just become more inputs and outputs, but Rust generally doesn't do that)
< 1740983954 867033 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the sequence of instructions for the machine is what the compiler outputs, but it's generally still referred to as a function even then
< 1740983962 700196 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Nah, Rust has general recursion, so we can't rely on the idea that they actually map to something.
< 1740984014 484116 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In plain C++: `int f(int x) { return f(x); }` doesn't actually designate a function. You could change that to `f(x + 1)` or etc. and it still wouldn't.
< 1740984016 429314 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :IIRC Rust has explicit checks for stack overflow in some contexts, although I think you might be able to write general-recursive functions without triggering them if you don't use much stack per iteration
< 1740984039 766739 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: do you not consider nontermination a possible return value?
< 1740984043 520923 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Same problem in Rust, Haskell, C, etc.
< 1740984078 932634 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Haskell actually documents it as a return value, and considers it equivalent to a runtime error (in the sense that a runtime error becoming a nontermination or vice versa is not considered a miscompile)
< 1740984079 528214 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I consider C++ to be *dishonest* if it claims that f has type int -> int. For what is f(0)?
< 1740984095 976341 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Haskell gets it right, but models of Haskell don't have functions for arrows.
< 1740984115 594822 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I don't think C++ does claim that, from the functional programming point of view
< 1740984137 763271 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Sure, and so C++'s users really shouldn't call those things "functions". Same gripe applies to Rust modulo borrowing.
< 1740984157 283464 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :C++ functions are allowed to produce side effects such as I/O and non-termination, and those are (in a sense) part of the output
< 1740984176 695195 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although to reason like this you have to draw a distinction between "return value" and "codomain"
< 1740984234 722528 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :interestingly Haskell seems to draw that distinction in that "return" produces monad actions – "return 6" gives you something whose return value is 6 and whose codomain is a monad action that returns integers
< 1740984266 232674 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I/O and nontermination aren't at all the same monadically. I/O can be fully encoded with the RWS monad (Reader, Writer, State) but nontermination isn't carried by anything neat.
< 1740984293 769584 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Cammy can encode RWS monads, for example. But every Cammy expression terminates, so nontermination can't possibly be encoded.
< 1740984304 61186 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's kind-of like Maybe – either you get a value or you don't – but it's uncomputable to actually resolve it
< 1740984369 76358 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure, that's the so-called "delay monad", which can be encoded with general recursion or as a fixpoint.
< 1740984383 803588 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :@eval let f x = f x in f 1
< 1740984395 725648 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs ::t let f x = f x in f 1
< 1740984396 608424 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :t
< 1740984403 311832 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :> let f x = f x in f 1
< 1740984409 219666 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
< 1740984446 334162 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, that surprises me, I thought that that wouldn't be an infinite loop in Haskell (infinite loops are allowed to be optimised into runtime errors by the Haskell spec and I thought that that was one of the cases that the compiler could catch)
< 1740984453 989576 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs ::t let f x = f (x + 1) in f 1
< 1740984454 838415 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :t
< 1740984478 107330 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, covariance. Just like the `forever` builtin.
< 1740984498 626052 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :how does variance matter there?
< 1740984516 84546 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I forgot which side of the arrow would be coerced by the (+) operator.
< 1740984527 304560 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs ::t let f x = (f x ) + 1 in f 1
< 1740984528 179776 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :Num a => a
< 1740984560 843953 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, now I am (yet again) regretting that people normally write numbers big-endian
< 1740984582 559184 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :would be fun to do a "let f x = (f x) * 10 + 1 in f 1" and get a stream of 1s on the output
< 1740984594 764847 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(likely beyond the abilities of ghc, but fun)
< 1740984623 73772 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it seems much harder to control the most significant digit like that, than it does for the least significant digit
< 1740984635 600333 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :It does seem plausible to me that little-endian would be more reasonable for human use.
< 1740984647 106739 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also writing polynomials with the lowest-degree terms first.
< 1740984683 823709 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I just realised that people do in fact write polynomials big-endian (and, of course, decimal numbers are polynomials with x=10)
< 1740984709 992365 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :when programming I've always represented them little-endian, so that (e.g.) the x² coefficient is at element 2 of the array…
< 1740984715 555912 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway, hopefully it's obvious why I say that it's a layering violation. An intrinsic which requires attention to the machine's procedural behavior is violating the inputs-to-outputs abstraction that is desired at high level.
< 1740984757 32455 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION grumpy like Dijkstra

< 1740984759 776043 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the situation is more complicated than that – the intrinsic is specifically a constraint on the program's low-level behaviour
< 1740984770 998333 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it has a defined input-output behaviour but just emulating that isn't enough
< 1740984823 843835 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for example, the platform I'm on has two different memory read instructions – one of them is faster than the other for unaligned reads of memory, but causes subsequent writes to that memory to become slower
< 1740984845 979046 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you only use it on memory that you don't think will be written in the near future
< 1740984881 408174 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that you already showed that the intrinsic definitionally can't meet the demands placed upon it, in that it *must* be emulated in order to remain platform-neutral, and therefore can't be part of the language's builtins.
< 1740984888 132289 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the documentation doesn't explain what the slowdown is, but my guess is that it doesn't load the memory into cache)
< 1740984897 847339 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But maybe this is pointing out too much that intrinsics are fundamentally silly.
< 1740984984 927931 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :surely the fix to this is to require a proof (e.g. via the type system) that the intrinsic does in fact exist on the platform, and then propagate that knowledge into anything that calls it
< 1740985038 836583 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :compilers are happy to take a dereference of a pointer as a proof that the pointer isn't null, and then to propagate that assumption throughout any code that, if it runs, necessarily implies the dereference will run
< 1740985071 989034 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, yeah. Zig does that AIUI; the compiler has various informational structs that are passed around everywhere, and Zig users are used to that because they have to pass around memory allocators already.
< 1740985153 425572 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Zig is ultimately shaped like a macro-driven assembler, and that's the level of detail required to hand-write vectorized assembly.
< 1740985203 32769 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've handwritten enough vectorized assembly to make it to the front page of Hacker News repeatedly (with the same program, it kept getting resubmitted)
< 1740985244 249699 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And really that's just the compile-time version of passing a powerbox or other runtime capability container. Back to the illegal-instruction cpuid-oriented setup from earlier.
< 1740985251 424017 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that program only had to run on two computers (it was a competition entry, so it just had to run on mine so that I could test it and the (person marking the competition)'s so that they could score it)
< 1740985312 627322 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it didn't even have a proper CPUID check (for the instruction set, at least), it just ran an AVX2 instruction uncondtioinally early on in the hope of provoking SIGILL on machines that didn't undestand it
< 1740985314 538479 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* understand
< 1740985329 781680 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure whether that's technically UB or not, the concept is hard to define in asm
< 1740985376 795929 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think there's a document anywhere guaranteeing "AVX2 instructions processor-trap on non-AVX2 x86-64 processors", but on the other hand it's a fairly safe assumption in practice
< 1740985397 518679 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1740985417 684237 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a bit different from using an instruction that's entirely undefined, because it might be defined on some future processor
< 1740985464 498375 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it's hard to envision a world where there are future processors that don't support AVX2 and repurpose the AVX2 encoding space for something else
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< 1740985920 386838 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1740987716 516253 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: you didn't add any -C target-cpu=... or -C target-feature=... option to rustc so it's trying to generate generic x86_64 code, which only has access to SSE2
< 1740987793 743371 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"if you want to be able to run instructions conditionally at runtime only if the feature is present" => gcc has an attribute for the containing function for that, and I think rustc might have one as well
< 1740987880 152737 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, you already found info about that
< 1740988228 332424 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: right, the problem is that I want the program to run on non-AVX processors in addition to the AVX ones, and yet contain AVX instructions – and that apparently implies that all the functions have to be written twice in the post-macro-expansion source code because Rust doesn't allow the same pre-monomorphisation function to run on non-AVX processors in one post-monomorphisation version and mention AVX instructions in a different post-
< 1740988229 912036 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :monomorphisation version
< 1740988259 932515 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even if you use inline asm (unless you do the register allocation yourself) because it refuses to allocate AVX registers without having the target-feature annotation
< 1740988604 797613 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: can you just compile the whole program twice, and add a thin wrapper script?
< 1740988632 320375 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or would that be too wasteful because it's a large program with only small parts using vector instructions?
< 1740988721 523810 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because that used to be the traditional solution before all the compiler and linker magic allowed you to have multiple versions of functions in one program 
< 1740988921 382419 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: well I'm trying to write this as a library, and I don't think it can compile the program twice from inside
< 1740989079 325355 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a library with rust interface, or a library with C interface callable from any language?
< 1740989165 765832 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a library with a Rust interface, although I may eventually use it as a dependency of a different library with a C interface
< 1740989204 522289 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if it's rust interface then users have to recompile it anyway, so you can tell them how to compile for AVX2-capable processors and for generic processors
< 1740989262 835898 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(substitute whatever extensions you're targeting instead of just AVX2 obviously)
< 1740989665 322044 :tromp!~textual@2a02:a210:cba:8500:4189:9487:9abd:f78 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1740990685 854235 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the fun part is when optimizing for the higher instruction set propagates to parts of the code that don't even use vector instructions, because you're eg. allocating a buffer 32-aligned because an AVX2 function will access it later. 
> 1740991562 871030 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StormScript14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153086 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+1212) 10Created page with "{{Distinguish/Confusion|StormLang}} {{WIP}}  This esolang is created by islptng. It'll be high-level but stack-based. Document will be written later.  However, it is simply a calculator now. ==Implementation== 
 def tokenize(s): tokens = [] current 
> 1740992826 274301 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StormScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153087&oldid=153086 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+697) 10
> 1740992893 947898 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StormScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153088&oldid=153087 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-2) 10/* Implementation */
> 1740993406 32624 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StormScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153089&oldid=153088 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+41) 10/* Implementation */
> 1740994098 35998 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StormScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153090&oldid=153089 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+610) 10/* Implementation */
> 1740994276 479203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StormScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153091&oldid=153090 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+27) 10/* Implementation */
> 1740994980 720402 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StormScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153092&oldid=153091 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+476) 10/* Implementation */
< 1740995947 112270 :tromp!~textual@2a02:a210:cba:8500:4189:9487:9abd:f78 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
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< 1740997809 712385 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1741000970 825440 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fontmess14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153093&oldid=153072 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+242) 10
> 1741003138 508646 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07REdACT14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153094&oldid=153080 5* 03FurCantCodeAnything 5* (-1023) 10Updated symbols
> 1741003176 562005 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07REdACT14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153095&oldid=153094 5* 03FurCantCodeAnything 5* (-11) 10
< 1741003355 720595 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
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> 1741003642 810088 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07REdACT14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153096&oldid=153095 5* 03FurCantCodeAnything 5* (+22) 10Compacting commands; also updating again to be UTD
> 1741003668 64592 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07REdACT14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153097&oldid=153096 5* 03FurCantCodeAnything 5* (+3) 10
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> 1741005076 548589 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BitChanger Busy beaver/Proof14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153098&oldid=153059 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+3641) 10
> 1741005104 722504 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BitChanger Busy beaver/Proof14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153099&oldid=153098 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (-16) 10
> 1741005643 773890 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BitChanger Busy beaver/Proof14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153100&oldid=153099 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+7) 10
> 1741006309 125882 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BitChanger Busy beaver/Proof14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153101&oldid=153100 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+1750) 10
> 1741006467 326782 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BitChanger Busy beaver/Proof14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153102&oldid=153101 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+27) 10
> 1741008503 177888 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:BitChanger Busy beaver14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153103&oldid=152851 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+75) 10
> 1741008669 221666 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:BitChanger Busy beaver14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153104&oldid=153103 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+89) 10
> 1741009022 331680 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07REdACT14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153105&oldid=153097 5* 03FurCantCodeAnything 5* (-26) 10
> 1741009043 815172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07REdACT14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153106&oldid=153105 5* 03FurCantCodeAnything 5* (+1) 10
> 1741009218 647165 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07REdACT14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153107&oldid=153106 5* 03FurCantCodeAnything 5* (+6) 10
> 1741014522 797406 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153108&oldid=152878 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+43) 10
> 1741014592 215294 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153109&oldid=153108 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1) 10
> 1741014906 347466 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Q9+14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153110 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+143) 10Created page with "Q9+ is a joke language created by [[User:Hotcrystal0]]. It is a hybrid of [[]] and [[HQ9+]] with a couple of additional features."
> 1741014990 805357 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153111&oldid=153109 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+45) 10
> 1741015166 151644 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153112&oldid=153025 5* 03BrainFuckGirl 5* (+1732) 10Added version UserEdited 6.0.trois
> 1741015461 440059 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153113&oldid=153110 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+467) 10
> 1741015498 212500 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153114&oldid=153113 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+25) 10
< 1741016217 19443 :chomwitt!~alex@2a02:587:7a13:5400:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd JOIN #esolangs chomwitt :realname
> 1741016388 664653 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153115&oldid=153114 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-9) 10
> 1741016511 749122 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153116&oldid=153115 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+30) 10
> 1741016565 786896 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153117&oldid=153116 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+59) 10
> 1741016685 387916 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153118&oldid=153117 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+92) 10
> 1741016706 571967 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153119&oldid=153118 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-20) 10
< 1741016716 505587 :chomwitt!~alex@2a02:587:7a13:5400:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1741016816 230304 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153120&oldid=153119 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+74) 10
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> 1741017871 778385 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tc214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153121&oldid=129539 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+56) 10Adding categories
> 1741017877 560394 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tc214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153122&oldid=153121 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10
> 1741017886 814501 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tc214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153123&oldid=153122 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10
> 1741017894 725670 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tc214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153124&oldid=153123 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10
< 1741018228 15125 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
> 1741018914 366452 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153125&oldid=153120 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+19) 10
> 1741018977 130452 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153126&oldid=153125 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+153) 10
> 1741019002 72617 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153127&oldid=153126 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-20) 10
> 1741019034 637901 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153128&oldid=153127 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+12) 10
> 1741019213 246202 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153129&oldid=153128 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+50) 10
> 1741019759 400858 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153130&oldid=153112 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+18) 10/* Categories and References */
> 1741020474 509043 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153131&oldid=153129 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+191) 10
> 1741020830 887982 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Neon 5*  10New user account
> 1741021169 714567 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153132&oldid=153130 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+1936) 10
> 1741022372 563123 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153133&oldid=153060 5* 03Neon 5* (+204) 10Introducing myself
> 1741022947 941241 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153134&oldid=153132 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+319) 10
> 1741022993 816527 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153135&oldid=153134 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+31) 10
> 1741022994 184937 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Weirdlang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153136&oldid=88590 5* 03Corbin 5* (+89) 10What an awful little ode to gatekeeping! Indicate that it's unrelated to the standard concept of weirdness in machines and compilers.
> 1741023042 185631 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153137&oldid=153135 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1) 10
> 1741023151 867685 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153138&oldid=153137 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-34) 10
> 1741023314 607069 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153139&oldid=153138 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+13) 10
> 1741023991 345678 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153140&oldid=153131 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+75) 10
> 1741024554 537193 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153141&oldid=153140 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+15) 10
> 1741024650 679918 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153142&oldid=153141 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+34) 10
> 1741024907 756646 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153143&oldid=153142 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-61) 10
> 1741024950 538751 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153144&oldid=153143 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-2) 10
> 1741025126 995187 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153145&oldid=153144 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+18) 10
> 1741025231 669180 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153146&oldid=153145 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+78) 10
> 1741025288 825738 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153147&oldid=153146 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+50) 10
> 1741025829 913904 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153148&oldid=153147 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+22) 10
> 1741026143 924907 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153149&oldid=153148 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+98) 10
> 1741026168 300681 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5*  10moved [[02User:Hotcrystal0/Q9+10]] to [[Hotcrystal0/Q9+]]: No longer a WIP (other than examples)
> 1741026182 881261 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5*  10moved [[02Hotcrystal0/Q9+10]] to [[Q9+]]
> 1741026194 796559 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hotcrystal0/Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153154&oldid=153153 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-24) 10Blanked the page
> 1741026227 987640 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153155&oldid=153151 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-12) 10Changed redirect target from [[Hotcrystal0/Q9+]] to [[Q9+]]
> 1741026537 503285 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153156&oldid=152495 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+145) 10/* Page in need of deletion */ new section
> 1741026574 640179 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153157&oldid=153156 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+92) 10
> 1741027225 85100 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07HoleQ9+14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153158 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+24) 10Redirected page to [[Q9+]]
> 1741027314 116252 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07HQ9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153159&oldid=150625 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+49) 10
> 1741027337 634655 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153160&oldid=153152 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-3) 10
> 1741027515 201967 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stairlang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153161&oldid=152959 5* 03 5* (+32) 10Added truth machine
> 1741027574 251231 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153162&oldid=153160 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+84) 10
> 1741027735 670535 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153163&oldid=153162 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+73) 10
> 1741027759 498828 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153164&oldid=153163 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+16) 10
> 1741028208 868009 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153165&oldid=153164 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10
> 1741028629 780221 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153166&oldid=153165 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+34) 10
> 1741028783 72584 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stairlang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153167&oldid=153161 5* 03 5* (+408) 10Added a few more commands and examples
> 1741029052 411292 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stairlang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153168&oldid=153167 5* 03 5* (+155) 10Added alternate Hello World
> 1741029262 620109 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stairlang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153169&oldid=153168 5* 03 5* (+140) 10Categories
> 1741029348 530321 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stairlang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153170&oldid=153169 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10fixing category
> 1741029567 885598 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153171&oldid=153166 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+277) 10
> 1741029596 202986 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153172&oldid=153171 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10
> 1741029626 902338 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153173&oldid=153172 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10
> 1741029674 207898 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153174&oldid=153173 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-12) 10
> 1741032223 656465 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153175&oldid=153064 5* 03Buckets 5* (+33) 10
> 1741032236 998301 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153176&oldid=153175 5* 03Buckets 5* (+2) 10
> 1741032244 290677 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153177&oldid=153063 5* 03Buckets 5* (+36) 10
> 1741032265 308702 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07S*n14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153178 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1834) 10Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=S*n}} S*n is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2022.   {| class="wikitable"   |-   ! Commands !! Instructions   |-   | | || This is where the Code starts at.   |-   | [[Page]] || Go
> 1741032275 580916 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07S*n/Il14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153179 5* 03Buckets 5* (+10) 10Created page with "[[S*n/Il]]"
> 1741032281 677099 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07S*n/Dup214]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153180 5* 03Buckets 5* (+128) 10Created page with " {[[S*n/Dupe]]|[[S*n/Dupe]]}  [[[S*n/Dup#]]-1]  {S*n/Dup#="0"}([[S*n/Dup2]])  [[S*n/t]]  #Dup2 [[:S*n/Dupe]]"
> 1741032289 10398 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07S*n/t14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153181 5* 03Buckets 5* (+13) 10Created page with " [[S*n/Dup2]]"
> 1741032296 733950 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07S*n/U=014]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153182 5* 03Buckets 5* (+120) 10Created page with " [[[S*n/FP0]]-1]  [[[S*n/FP1]]*[[S*n/FP0]]]  {[[S*n/FP0]]="0"}([[S*n/U=0]])  [[S*n/FP]]  #U=0 [[:FP1]]"
> 1741032304 519579 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07S*n/FP14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153183 5* 03Buckets 5* (+12) 10Created page with " [[S*n/U=0]]"
> 1741032314 318701 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07S*n/Quine14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153184 5* 03Buckets 5* (+15) 10Created page with "|[[:S*n/Quine]]"
< 1741034328 162951 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wrote a JSON->DER conversion program https://raw.githubusercontent.com/zzo38/scorpion/refs/heads/trunk/asn1/jsontoder.c (it does not fully validate that the JSON data is correct, though)
< 1741035489 812545 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(This is not the best use of DER, but it demonstrates how a conversion is possible.)
< 1741035927 149348 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
> 1741037523 899576 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153185&oldid=153111 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+60) 10
> 1741037645 703892 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Crystal-complete14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153186 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+135) 10Created page with "A programming language is said to be crystal-complete if it meets all the following criteria:  * It is able to print TRANS RIGHTS"
> 1741037708 939906 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Crystal-complete14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153187&oldid=153186 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+73) 10
> 1741037796 485487 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Crystal-complete14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153188&oldid=153187 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10
> 1741038007 660713 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Crystal-complete14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153189&oldid=153188 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+42) 10
> 1741038711 541843 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Crystal-complete14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153190&oldid=153189 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+313) 10
> 1741038816 752190 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153191&oldid=153185 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-50) 10User chart is cancelled
> 1741039556 55197 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07S*n/Il14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153192&oldid=153179 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1) 10
< 1741040798 471040 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1741040806 573514 :craigo_!~craigo@2403:5815:da48:0:a1aa:83b:a8a5:bab4 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1741041610 367680 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl PRIVMSG #esolangs :What's everyone's favorite Brainfuck variant?
> 1741041967 183714 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Crystal-complete14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153193&oldid=153190 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+12) 10
< 1741042397 273262 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :BF Joust is pretty cool.
> 1741042463 3449 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153194&oldid=153177 5* 03Buckets 5* (+16) 10
> 1741042871 929388 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07S*n/14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153195 5* 03Buckets 5* (+160) 10Created page with "{{disambig}} "S*n/" Could refer to The following Pages: # [[S*n/Quine]] # [[S*n/Il]] # [[S*n/U=0]] # [[S*n/FP]] # [[S*n/Dup2]] # [[S*n/t]]"
> 1741043085 144654 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Beep Boop14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153196&oldid=152225 5* 03Buckets 5* (+4) 10
> 1741043566 292317 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fontmess14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153197&oldid=153093 5* 03Buckets 5* (-202) 10
< 1741043585 347583 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1741043817 878261 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Crystal-complete14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153198&oldid=153193 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+22) 10
> 1741043839 880714 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5*  10moved [[02User:Hotcrystal0/Crystal-complete10]] to [[Crystal-complete]]: no longer WIP
> 1741045464 895678 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fontmess14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153201&oldid=153197 5* 03Buckets 5* (-24) 10
< 1741046642 14803 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1741046746 496772 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
< 1741046758 924182 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1741047849 145908 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Crystal-complete14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153202&oldid=153199 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+3) 10periods
< 1741048377 265215 :Lykaina!~Thunderbi@user/lykaina JOIN #esolangs Lykaina :Lykaina
> 1741048548 574904 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nybblang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153203&oldid=97072 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+736) 10Ensuing from a contradictory account of the nybble buffer's bit assemblage, modulated the examples and extended the descriptions to comply with a procession from the least significant bit (LSB) towards the most significant one (MSB) while constructing a nybble for the stac
> 1741048612 644715 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nybblang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153204&oldid=153203 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+486) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the Nybblang programming language on GitHub and supplemented the Implemented category tag.
< 1741049020 567130 :yegorc!~yegorc@user/yegorc JOIN #esolangs yegorc :realname
< 1741049471 498529 :yegorc!~yegorc@user/yegorc PART #esolangs :Leaving
< 1741049673 201813 :Lykaina!~Thunderbi@user/lykaina QUIT :Quit: Lykaina
< 1741049748 388655 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina JOIN #esolangs Lykaina :Lykaina
< 1741050648 334464 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1741056414 634520 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Islp-Complete14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153205 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+1351) 10Created page with "A programming language is considered Islp-complete if it meets all the following criteria:  Level 1: * It should be able to implement [[Fractran]]. * It should be able to print one of "Hello, world!", "", "", ",!" * It should be able 
> 1741056911 797196 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Q9+14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153206 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+2234) 10Created page with "It's [[Q9+]] but [[]] instead of [[]].  Q9+ is a joke language created by islptng.  ==Commands==  Q9+ has these commands:  {| class="wikitable" !Command !Description !Derived from |- | or [KENG] |Get user input and output the input. | |- | 1741056970 519975 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153207&oldid=153174 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+25) 10
> 1741057072 452343 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153208&oldid=153206 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+69) 10/* Commands */
> 1741057169 598202 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Q9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153209&oldid=153208 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+45) 10
< 1741061284 821920 :craigo_!~craigo@2403:5815:da48:0:a1aa:83b:a8a5:bab4 QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1741063497 572040 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina QUIT :Quit: Leaving
> 1741067367 572038 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Crest14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153210 5* 03Camto 5* (+7703) 10Page creation.
> 1741067828 215934 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Crest14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153211&oldid=153210 5* 03Camto 5* (+184) 10Categories
> 1741068117 280936 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StormScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153212&oldid=153092 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-1068) 10
> 1741068202 227820 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StormScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153213&oldid=153212 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-64) 10/* Implementation */
< 1741068874 373495 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1741068879 122126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Crest14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153214&oldid=153211 5* 03Camto 5* (+331) 10Implementation and Turing Completeness
> 1741068958 336283 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Crest14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153215&oldid=153214 5* 03Camto 5* (+23) 10The screen is all cells, so it's cell-based.
> 1741069118 595335 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tri-Tru-Eso14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153216&oldid=151931 5* 03Camto 5* (+0) 10Category typo
> 1741069194 861925 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Trithemius14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153217&oldid=151414 5* 03Camto 5* (+0) 10Category typo
< 1741069695 342782 :alec3660!~quassel@user/alec3660 QUIT :Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.
< 1741069704 946369 :alec3660!~quassel@user/alec3660 JOIN #esolangs alec3660 :alec
< 1741069742 505793 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069742 925447 :yewscion__!~yewscion@2601:547:1400:1ab0:b3d9:e178:7811:ae04 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069743 317744 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069743 607441 :pikhq!sid394595@user/meow/pikhq QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069744 712501 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069745 684129 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069745 877983 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-084-063-063-254.084.063.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069746 67612 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069746 527468 :^[!~user@user//x-8473491 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069747 87624 :tromp!~textual@2a02:a210:cba:8500:4189:9487:9abd:f78 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069747 265688 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069747 298873 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069748 25788 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069748 308166 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069748 992658 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069749 45418 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069749 348270 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069749 409556 :Soni!~quassel@sodapop.autistic.space QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069749 633673 :madcabbage!~cabbage@207.148.176.79 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069749 687406 :ursa-major!114efe6c39@2a03:6000:1812:100::11f3 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069750 825703 :shikhin!~shikhin@offtopia/offtopian QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069750 981691 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069751 149847 :jix!~jix@user/jix QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069751 687942 :tetsuo-cpp!sid672509@id-672509.hampstead.irccloud.com QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069751 875877 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069752 440965 :Ae`!Ae@linux.touz.org QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069752 831585 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069753 282852 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069753 470880 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069754 54255 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069754 350189 :ProofTechnique_!sid79547@id-79547.ilkley.irccloud.com QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069755 259803 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-ED74-98A7-B9EB-96-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069755 792685 :yuu!sid267332@id-267332.ilkley.irccloud.com QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069756 773237 :mich181189!sid268336@londonhackspace/mich181189 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069756 840447 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069757 519709 :MizMahem!sid296354@user/mizmahem QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069757 566944 :voxpelli!sid31634@id-31634.tinside.irccloud.com QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069757 597014 :dnm!sid401311@id-401311.lymington.irccloud.com QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069758 168567 :dcreager!a9e780c4d1@2a03:6000:1812:100::136b QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069758 399660 :citrons!~citrons@alt.mondecitronne.com QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069758 455266 :riv!river@tilde.team/user/river QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069758 515866 :integral!sid296274@user/integral QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069759 26643 :gAy_Dragon!A_D@libera/staff/dragon QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069759 537259 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069760 793784 :GregorR!~GregorR@71.19.155.102 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069761 296601 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@wilsonb.com QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069791 418158 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1741069791 418211 :tromp!~textual@2a02:a210:cba:8500:4189:9487:9abd:f78 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1741069791 418219 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1741069791 418226 :Ae`!Ae@linux.touz.org JOIN #esolangs * :Ae
< 1741069791 418233 :madcabbage!~cabbage@207.148.176.79 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1741069791 418240 :ursa-major!114efe6c39@2a03:6000:1812:100::11f3 JOIN #esolangs ursa-major :Bailey Bjornstad
< 1741069791 418258 :pikhq!sid394595@user/meow/pikhq JOIN #esolangs pikhq :Ada Worcester
< 1741069791 418264 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a JOIN #esolangs fungot :fungot-0.1
< 1741069791 418271 :yewscion__!~yewscion@2601:547:1400:1ab0:b3d9:e178:7811:ae04 JOIN #esolangs yewscion :Claire Rodriguez
< 1741069791 419120 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net JOIN #esolangs m5zs7k :m5zs7k
< 1741069791 419138 :Soni!~quassel@sodapop.autistic.space JOIN #esolangs SoniEx2 :Genders: Autgender, 💜🖤💚; Soni L.
< 1741069791 419145 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi JOIN #esolangs fizzie :Heikki Kallasjoki
< 1741069791 419167 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf JOIN #esolangs shachaf :Shachaf Ben-Kiki
< 1741069791 419192 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi JOIN #esolangs HackEso :zemhill
< 1741069791 419208 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org JOIN #esolangs leah2 :Leah Neukirchen
< 1741069791 419237 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :b_jonas
< 1741069791 419245 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 JOIN #esolangs op_4 :op_4
< 1741069791 419251 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 JOIN #esolangs slavfox :slavfox
< 1741069791 419257 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl JOIN #esolangs Wryl :Wryl
< 1741069791 419262 :tetsuo-cpp!sid672509@id-672509.hampstead.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs tetsuo-cpp :tetsuo-cpp
< 1741069791 419268 :jix!~jix@user/jix JOIN #esolangs jix :Jannis Harder
< 1741069791 419274 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi JOIN #esolangs HackEso :HackEso
< 1741069791 419280 :shikhin!~shikhin@offtopia/offtopian JOIN #esolangs shikhin :shikhin
< 1741069791 419285 :^[!~user@user//x-8473491 JOIN #esolangs ^[ :user
< 1741069791 419292 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera JOIN #esolangs izabera :izabera
< 1741069791 419298 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-084-063-063-254.084.063.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN #esolangs Melvar :melvar
< 1741069791 419304 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator JOIN #esolangs Bowserinator :No VPS :(
< 1741069791 419320 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu JOIN #esolangs int-e :Bertram
< 1741069791 419327 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1741069791 419334 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1741069791 419340 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de JOIN #esolangs * :rodgort
< 1741069791 419346 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-ED74-98A7-B9EB-96-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
< 1741069791 419353 :MizMahem!sid296354@user/mizmahem JOIN #esolangs MizMahem :🐍🐔
< 1741069791 419359 :yuu!sid267332@id-267332.ilkley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs * :yuu
< 1741069791 419365 :voxpelli!sid31634@id-31634.tinside.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs voxpelli :Pelle Wessman
< 1741069791 419382 :dnm!sid401311@id-401311.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs dnm :dnm
< 1741069791 419394 :dcreager!a9e780c4d1@2a03:6000:1812:100::136b JOIN #esolangs dcreager :Douglas Creager
< 1741069791 446793 :GregorR!~GregorR@71.19.155.102 JOIN #esolangs GregorR :Gregor Richards
< 1741069791 446833 :citrons!~citrons@alt.mondecitronne.com JOIN #esolangs citrons :citrons
< 1741069791 446840 :riv!river@tilde.team/user/river JOIN #esolangs river :My real name
< 1741069791 446847 :mich181189!sid268336@londonhackspace/mich181189 JOIN #esolangs mich181189 :Michael
< 1741069791 446854 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 JOIN #esolangs Corbin :korvo
< 1741069791 446860 :integral!sid296274@user/integral JOIN #esolangs integral :bsmith
< 1741069791 446867 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@wilsonb.com JOIN #esolangs xelxebar :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1741069791 447004 :ProofTechnique_!sid79547@id-79547.ilkley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs * :ptech
< 1741069791 447039 :gAy_Dragon!A_D@libera/staff/dragon JOIN #esolangs ad :Roy Mustang, The Flame Alchemist
< 1741069816 453662 :Ae`!Ae@linux.touz.org NICK :029AAR240
< 1741069831 721921 :ursa-major!114efe6c39@2a03:6000:1812:100::11f3 QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded
< 1741069861 5896 :dbohdan!~dbohdan@user/dbohdan QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069861 280021 :Artea!~Lufia@artea.pt QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069861 531814 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069862 735182 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069863 576839 :yewscion__!~yewscion@2601:547:1400:1ab0:b3d9:e178:7811:ae04 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069864 349529 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069864 921787 :pikhq!sid394595@user/meow/pikhq QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069866 190852 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069866 966015 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069867 130635 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-084-063-063-254.084.063.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069867 307934 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069867 751505 :^[!~user@user//x-8473491 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069868 277498 :tromp!~textual@2a02:a210:cba:8500:4189:9487:9abd:f78 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069868 437024 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069868 465751 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069869 152614 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069869 417236 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069870 56890 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069870 104422 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069870 382181 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069870 440356 :Soni!~quassel@sodapop.autistic.space QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069870 651837 :madcabbage!~cabbage@207.148.176.79 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069871 701988 :shikhin!~shikhin@offtopia/offtopian QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069871 845126 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069872 8724 :jix!~jix@user/jix QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069872 518027 :tetsuo-cpp!sid672509@id-672509.hampstead.irccloud.com QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069872 682323 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069873 887767 :029AAR240!Ae@linux.touz.org QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069874 937342 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069876 177731 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069876 840851 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069878 209766 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069878 685396 :ProofTechnique_!sid79547@id-79547.ilkley.irccloud.com QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069880 148855 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-ED74-98A7-B9EB-96-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069881 102724 :yuu!sid267332@id-267332.ilkley.irccloud.com QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069882 426758 :mich181189!sid268336@londonhackspace/mich181189 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069882 564575 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069883 270034 :MizMahem!sid296354@user/mizmahem QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069883 340899 :voxpelli!sid31634@id-31634.tinside.irccloud.com QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069883 380447 :dnm!sid401311@id-401311.lymington.irccloud.com QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069884 458029 :dcreager!a9e780c4d1@2a03:6000:1812:100::136b QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069884 628679 :citrons!~citrons@alt.mondecitronne.com QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069884 686949 :riv!river@tilde.team/user/river QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069884 752509 :integral!sid296274@user/integral QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069885 287346 :gAy_Dragon!A_D@libera/staff/dragon QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069885 826382 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069887 185985 :GregorR!~GregorR@71.19.155.102 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069887 723672 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@wilsonb.com QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069889 481158 :ManDeJan!3da94070ba@user/mandejan QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069889 731625 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069890 405089 :JAA!~JAA@user/meow/JAA QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069890 583952 :j4cbo!sid186930@id-186930.helmsley.irccloud.com QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069890 726155 :krychu!~krychu@static.19.136.108.65.clients.your-server.de QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069890 767527 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069890 833054 :laerling!~laerling@user/laerling QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069891 184446 :alec3660!~quassel@user/alec3660 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069891 912089 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069892 952032 :Lymee!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069893 511704 :oren!~oren@ec2-44-201-23-133.compute-1.amazonaws.com QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069894 19387 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069894 313327 :lynndotpy6!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069894 365580 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069895 935431 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069896 333541 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069896 466601 :nitrix!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069897 105605 :Trigon!~Trigon@c-24-10-151-155.hsd1.ut.comcast.net QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069897 143324 :Taneb0!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069897 482540 :mcfrdy!~mcfrdy@user/mcfrdy QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069898 541019 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069899 390537 :visilii!~visilii@213.24.126.217 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069899 797609 :myname!~myname@mail.mynery.eu QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069900 62345 :V!~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741069900 961050 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741070002 90738 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1741070002 91619 :gAy_Dragon!A_D@libera/staff/dragon JOIN #esolangs ad :Roy Mustang, The Flame Alchemist
< 1741070002 91657 :ProofTechnique_!sid79547@id-79547.ilkley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs * :ptech
< 1741070002 91684 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@wilsonb.com JOIN #esolangs xelxebar :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1741070002 91702 :integral!sid296274@user/integral JOIN #esolangs integral :bsmith
< 1741070002 91718 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 JOIN #esolangs Corbin :korvo
< 1741070002 91741 :mich181189!sid268336@londonhackspace/mich181189 JOIN #esolangs mich181189 :Michael
< 1741070002 91769 :riv!river@tilde.team/user/river JOIN #esolangs river :My real name
< 1741070002 91786 :citrons!~citrons@alt.mondecitronne.com JOIN #esolangs citrons :citrons
< 1741070002 91800 :GregorR!~GregorR@71.19.155.102 JOIN #esolangs GregorR :Gregor Richards
< 1741070002 91822 :dcreager!a9e780c4d1@2a03:6000:1812:100::136b JOIN #esolangs dcreager :Douglas Creager
< 1741070002 91845 :dnm!sid401311@id-401311.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs dnm :dnm
< 1741070002 91859 :voxpelli!sid31634@id-31634.tinside.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs voxpelli :Pelle Wessman
< 1741070002 93333 :yuu!sid267332@id-267332.ilkley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs * :yuu
< 1741070002 93368 :MizMahem!sid296354@user/mizmahem JOIN #esolangs MizMahem :🐍🐔
< 1741070002 93394 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-ED74-98A7-B9EB-96-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
< 1741070002 93416 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de JOIN #esolangs * :rodgort
< 1741070002 93455 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1741070002 93480 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1741070002 93508 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu JOIN #esolangs int-e :Bertram
< 1741070002 93531 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator JOIN #esolangs Bowserinator :No VPS :(
< 1741070002 93552 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-084-063-063-254.084.063.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN #esolangs Melvar :melvar
< 1741070002 93573 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera JOIN #esolangs izabera :izabera
< 1741070002 93598 :^[!~user@user//x-8473491 JOIN #esolangs ^[ :user
< 1741070002 93621 :shikhin!~shikhin@offtopia/offtopian JOIN #esolangs shikhin :shikhin
< 1741070002 94853 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi JOIN #esolangs HackEso :HackEso
< 1741070002 94886 :jix!~jix@user/jix JOIN #esolangs jix :Jannis Harder
< 1741070002 94907 :tetsuo-cpp!sid672509@id-672509.hampstead.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs tetsuo-cpp :tetsuo-cpp
< 1741070002 94963 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl JOIN #esolangs Wryl :Wryl
< 1741070002 94978 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 JOIN #esolangs slavfox :slavfox
< 1741070002 94992 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 JOIN #esolangs op_4 :op_4
< 1741070002 95006 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :b_jonas
< 1741070002 95020 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org JOIN #esolangs leah2 :Leah Neukirchen
< 1741070002 95033 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi JOIN #esolangs HackEso :zemhill
< 1741070002 95047 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf JOIN #esolangs shachaf :Shachaf Ben-Kiki
< 1741070002 95061 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi JOIN #esolangs fizzie :Heikki Kallasjoki
< 1741070002 95075 :Soni!~quassel@sodapop.autistic.space JOIN #esolangs SoniEx2 :Genders: Autgender, 💜🖤💚; Soni L.
< 1741070002 95089 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net JOIN #esolangs m5zs7k :m5zs7k
< 1741070002 96657 :yewscion__!~yewscion@2601:547:1400:1ab0:b3d9:e178:7811:ae04 JOIN #esolangs yewscion :Claire Rodriguez
< 1741070002 96701 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a JOIN #esolangs fungot :fungot-0.1
< 1741070002 96742 :pikhq!sid394595@user/meow/pikhq JOIN #esolangs pikhq :Ada Worcester
< 1741070002 96770 :madcabbage!~cabbage@207.148.176.79 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1741070002 96786 :029AAR240!Ae@linux.touz.org JOIN #esolangs * :Ae
< 1741070002 96802 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
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< 1741070002 96962 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly JOIN #esolangs FireFly :firefly
< 1741070002 96977 :krychu!~krychu@static.19.136.108.65.clients.your-server.de JOIN #esolangs * :krychu
< 1741070002 98779 :j4cbo!sid186930@id-186930.helmsley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs j4cbo :j4cbo
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< 1741070002 98901 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony JOIN #esolangs moony :Kaylie! (she/her)
< 1741070002 98960 :ManDeJan!3da94070ba@user/mandejan JOIN #esolangs ManDeJan :ManDeJan
< 1741070002 99012 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid JOIN #esolangs iovoid :respresented by unoptimal radix
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< 1741070002 99107 :Lymee!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe JOIN #esolangs Lymia :Lymia Aluysia
< 1741070002 99161 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org JOIN #esolangs hooloovoo :Hooloovoo
< 1741070002 99196 :lynndotpy6!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 JOIN #esolangs lynndotpy :lynn
< 1741070002 99241 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1741070002 99278 :nitrix!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix JOIN #esolangs nitrix :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1741070002 99311 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
< 1741070002 118875 :Trigon!~Trigon@c-24-10-151-155.hsd1.ut.comcast.net JOIN #esolangs * :https://codetriangle.me
< 1741070002 118938 :Taneb0!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 JOIN #esolangs Taneb :Nathan van Doorn
< 1741070002 119029 :visilii!~visilii@213.24.126.217 JOIN #esolangs * :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1741070002 119068 :dbohdan!~dbohdan@user/dbohdan JOIN #esolangs dbohdan :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1741070002 119119 :myname!~myname@mail.mynery.eu JOIN #esolangs myname :myname
< 1741070002 119169 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net JOIN #esolangs sprout :sprout
< 1741070002 119208 :Artea!~Lufia@artea.pt JOIN #esolangs Artea :Artea ElFo
< 1741070002 119240 :mcfrdy!~mcfrdy@user/mcfrdy JOIN #esolangs mcfrdy :mcfrdy
< 1741070002 119313 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149
< 1741070002 119348 :V!~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V JOIN #esolangs V :Wie?
< 1741070072 716050 :029AAR240!Ae@linux.touz.org QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741070073 69663 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741070073 534677 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741070073 769050 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741070074 350603 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741070075 196309 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741070075 782085 :yewscion__!~yewscion@2601:547:1400:1ab0:b3d9:e178:7811:ae04 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741070076 315203 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741070076 703501 :pikhq!sid394595@user/meow/pikhq QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741070116 114655 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net JOIN #esolangs m5zs7k :m5zs7k
< 1741070116 143074 :yewscion__!~yewscion@2601:547:1400:1ab0:b3d9:e178:7811:ae04 JOIN #esolangs yewscion :Claire Rodriguez
< 1741070116 143146 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a JOIN #esolangs fungot :fungot-0.1
< 1741070116 143199 :pikhq!sid394595@user/meow/pikhq JOIN #esolangs pikhq :Ada Worcester
< 1741070119 197762 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded
< 1741070139 564927 :m5zs7k_!aquares@web10.mydevil.net JOIN #esolangs m5zs7k :m5zs7k
< 1741070165 457641 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded
< 1741070166 475001 :ursa-major!114efe6c39@2a03:6000:1812:100::11f3 JOIN #esolangs ursa-major :Bailey Bjornstad
< 1741070183 580743 :029AAR240!Ae@linux.touz.org JOIN #esolangs * :Ae
< 1741070183 609125 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de JOIN #esolangs * :rodgort
< 1741070183 609222 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1741070183 609270 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1741070183 609306 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu JOIN #esolangs int-e :Bertram
< 1741070210 663429 :tromp!~textual@2a02:a210:cba:8500:4189:9487:9abd:f78 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741070210 804517 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741070210 833648 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741070211 533841 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741070211 796748 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741070212 442743 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741070212 492344 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741070212 774905 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741070212 829209 :Soni!~quassel@sodapop.autistic.space QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741070247 180876 :tromp!~textual@2a02:a210:cba:8500:4189:9487:9abd:f78 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1741070247 209257 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 JOIN #esolangs slavfox :slavfox
< 1741070247 209341 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 JOIN #esolangs op_4 :op_4
< 1741070247 209388 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :b_jonas
< 1741070247 209412 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org JOIN #esolangs leah2 :Leah Neukirchen
< 1741070247 209424 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi JOIN #esolangs HackEso :zemhill
< 1741070247 209453 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf JOIN #esolangs shachaf :Shachaf Ben-Kiki
< 1741070247 209475 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi JOIN #esolangs fizzie :Heikki Kallasjoki
< 1741070247 209505 :Soni!~quassel@sodapop.autistic.space JOIN #esolangs SoniEx2 :Genders: Autgender, 💜🖤💚; Soni L.
< 1741070286 708593 :madcabbage!~cabbage@207.148.176.79 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741070287 573999 :shikhin!~shikhin@offtopia/offtopian QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741070287 726344 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741070287 893657 :jix!~jix@user/jix QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741070288 402573 :tetsuo-cpp!sid672509@id-672509.hampstead.irccloud.com QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741070288 569447 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741070289 114731 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741070290 60991 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741070290 239821 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-084-063-063-254.084.063.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741070290 420341 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741070290 872262 :^[!~user@user//x-8473491 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741070321 653120 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1741070321 732761 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator JOIN #esolangs Bowserinator :No VPS :(
< 1741070321 732825 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-084-063-063-254.084.063.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN #esolangs Melvar :melvar
< 1741070321 732869 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera JOIN #esolangs izabera :izabera
< 1741070321 732892 :^[!~user@user//x-8473491 JOIN #esolangs ^[ :user
< 1741070416 794091 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Excess Flood
< 1741070438 112902 :madcabbage!~cabbage@207.148.176.79 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1741070438 113147 :shikhin!~shikhin@offtopia/offtopian JOIN #esolangs shikhin :shikhin
< 1741070438 113158 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi JOIN #esolangs HackEso :HackEso
< 1741070438 113165 :jix!~jix@user/jix JOIN #esolangs jix :Jannis Harder
< 1741070438 113171 :tetsuo-cpp!sid672509@id-672509.hampstead.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs tetsuo-cpp :tetsuo-cpp
< 1741070438 113178 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl JOIN #esolangs Wryl :Wryl
< 1741070442 160212 :madcabbage!~cabbage@207.148.176.79 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1741070448 674369 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1741070456 463385 :madcabbage!~cabbage@207.148.176.79 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1741070699 474518 :m5zs7k_!aquares@web10.mydevil.net NICK :m5zs7k
< 1741071958 446061 :madcabbage!~cabbage@207.148.176.79 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1741072241 480023 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1741072277 93210 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1741072322 753299 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1741073792 67791 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Crest14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153218&oldid=153215 5* 03Camto 5* (+74) 10Examples link
> 1741073843 507654 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Crest14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153219&oldid=153218 5* 03Camto 5* (+39) 10Tabs to spaces in code
> 1741074019 187921 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Crest/Examples14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153220 5* 03Camto 5* (+6392) 10Create the page
> 1741074167 933987 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Crest/Examples14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153221&oldid=153220 5* 03Camto 5* (+23) 10The category
< 1741075010 692615 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1741077463 892821 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153222&oldid=153139 5* 03BrainFuckGirl 5* (+0) 10/* Commands */
> 1741077732 55288 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153223&oldid=152854 5* 03BrainFuckGirl 5* (+0) 10/* Hello, world! */
< 1741078796 21004 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1741079950 668 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1741080373 90224 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1741081425 565855 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1741081953 64725 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.9.1 - https://znc.in
< 1741082132 41706 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1741085071 599559 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1741085196 19821 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 JOIN #esolangs op_4 :op_4
> 1741086101 607178 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fontmess14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153224&oldid=153201 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+202) 10Reformat the page. And "output" command is very important, if only with the original command it won't be able to golfing.
< 1741086570 618077 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1741087507 408880 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523 re https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2025-02.html#lpAb , given sequentially consistent atomic memory access (accesses are totally ordered and see every earlier write but no later ones), how do you make a mutex.
< 1741087512 21595 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Flag cell starts from 0. When first thread wants to lock, it waits until the flag is 0, increments flag, tests flag, if zero then decrements flag and restarts, otherwise it has the lock and will have to decrement flag to unlock.
< 1741087517 233820 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :When second thread wants to lock, it just decrements the flag then waits until it's nonzero, at which point it has the lock and will have to increment flag to unlock.
< 1741087521 710982 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :You can do this with two separate cells instead, with only one thread ever writing each. Both flag A and B are normally 0.
< 1741087525 12432 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :When first thread wants to lock, it waits until flag B is zero, increments A, tests B, if nonzero then decrements A and restarts, otherwise has the lock now and will have to decrement to unlock.
< 1741087528 86780 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :When second thread wants to lock, it increments B then waits until A is zero, has the lock and will decrement B to unlock.
< 1741087533 446996 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And I think you can extend that to any constant number of threads.
> 1741089178 540192 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153225&oldid=153222 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+2761) 10
< 1741089756 438330 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1741089996 510129 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
> 1741094442 447731 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153226&oldid=153225 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+463) 10More commands!
< 1741095045 357743 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1741096243 801482 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited/All country IDs14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153227 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+1413) 10Created page with "{{Back|UserEdited}} == Page 1 (Basic IDs) == {| class="wikitable" |+ Page 1 (Basic IDs) |- ! 1-character ID !! Country !! 1-character ID !! Country !! 1-character ID !! Country |- | A || South Africa || J || Japan || R || Russia |- | B || Brazil || K
< 1741096310 309084 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1741096605 655390 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153228&oldid=153226 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+2390) 10
> 1741096618 166391 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153229&oldid=153228 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+2) 10
> 1741097335 318737 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153230&oldid=153229 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+0) 10Wording
> 1741097938 827516 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153231&oldid=153230 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (-1887) 10
> 1741097959 411452 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited/Versions14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153232 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+1939) 10Created page with "{{Back|UserEdited}} * UserEdited 1.0 * UserEdited 2.0 * UserEdited 2.1 (made by None1) * UserEdited 3.0 * UserEdited 3.1 * UserEdited 3.1 1/2 (or UserEdited 3.2) (made by Cleverxia) * UserEdited 4.0 * UserEdited 4.0.1 * UserEdited 4.2.-1 (from None1) * User
> 1741098000 328966 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153233&oldid=153231 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (-394) 10
> 1741098031 12889 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited/Versions14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153234&oldid=153232 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+515) 10
> 1741098070 171256 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited/Versions14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153235&oldid=153234 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+18) 10
> 1741098111 873003 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited/Versions14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153236&oldid=153235 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+100) 10
> 1741098124 422888 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153237&oldid=153233 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (-181) 10
> 1741098186 554995 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153238&oldid=153237 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (-32) 10
> 1741102463 625569 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153239&oldid=153238 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1143) 10
> 1741102538 605182 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153240&oldid=153239 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+73) 10
> 1741102615 710007 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited/Versions14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153241&oldid=153236 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+141) 10
> 1741103161 44933 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fontmess14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153242&oldid=153224 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-1) 10/* Hello, world! = */
> 1741103301 651477 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited/All country IDs14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153243&oldid=153227 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1228) 10
< 1741103543 427257 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1741103553 22021 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1741104044 812670 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited/Versions14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153244&oldid=153241 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+54) 10/* TBR */
> 1741104061 883863 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited/Versions14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153245&oldid=153244 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+21) 10
< 1741104645 75251 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I was thinking about a similar approach. The problem is that, in case of contention, there's no resource but to try again; it could livelock while trying to pick up the thread.
< 1741104655 46704 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...We might have to bust out the TLA+ for this one.
< 1741104681 260953 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...I probably meant "there's no recourse", bad English idiom for not having any other options.
< 1741104892 621499 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1741105026 287360 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: if there's contention, then eventually the first thread will notice that the second thread set its flag, at which point the first thread will no keep its own flag clear, and the second thread will get the lock; or else the second thread will be too late and the first thread will get the lock
< 1741105064 765316 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think it can livelock trying to lock the mutex; it could livelock or deadlock in a higher level loop
< 1741105096 197734 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: Can't waiting for a cell to be 0 always livelock?
< 1741105129 587414 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I'm trying to use intuition on a combinatorial problem that requires case analysis.
> 1741105785 15322 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153246&oldid=153038 5* 03H33T33 5* (+407) 10
< 1741106263 639491 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: are you talking about the one-cell version in https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2025-03-04.html#lYf or the two-cell version in https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2025-03-04.html#l0f ?
< 1741106368 223116 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: The one-cell version. The two-cell version seems like it could have a similar issue, maybe, but I think I'd need to actually hack out the TLA+ to see for sure.
< 1741106586 658996 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :one-cell version. so when the first cell waits for the flag to be zero before incrementing it, the flag cell can only be nonzero if the second thread decremented it to try to lock it. in that case, the first thread can't increment the cell until the second thread is done, so the second thread will be able to progress to where it locks the mutex
< 1741106587 159375 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :then unlocks it.
< 1741106709 387406 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the other question is when the first thread increments the flag cell and then ensures it's nonzero, and restarts if it's zero. the cell can be zero only if the second thread has decremented it. when that happens, the first thread decrements the cell then restarts, but then the cell will stay at value -1 until the second thread unlocks, so the first
< 1741106709 887465 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :thread won't try to increment the thread again, it'll be stuck in the first wait.
< 1741106818 724226 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can get a livelock at a higher level loop if a thread repeatedly locks and unlocks the mutex and so the other thread can't progress, and this can be a problem, but it's not really a problem with the mutex implementation, that can happen with any normal mutex
> 1741107510 990257 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153247&oldid=153240 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+2702) 10
> 1741109144 553476 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153248&oldid=151618 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+294) 1050
< 1741109740 478910 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1741114013 191355 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`learn password The password of the month is One day I'll be dead and THEN you'll all be sorry.
< 1741114016 100215 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Relearned 'password': password The password of the month is One day I'll be dead and THEN you'll all be sorry.
> 1741115318 153743 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153249 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+225) 10Created page with "CAPI is an esolang created by [[User:Hotcrystal0]] [add yourself if youve been invited]. It is designed to be [[crystal-complete], [[aweosme-complete]], [[PrySigneToFry-complete]], and [[User: I am ispltng/ispl-complete]]."
> 1741115332 881813 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153250&oldid=153249 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10
> 1741115353 460299 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153251&oldid=153250 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+14) 10
> 1741115361 820425 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153252&oldid=153251 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10
> 1741115397 704098 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153253&oldid=153252 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10
< 1741115610 846798 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1741115645 641607 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: so I think your lock is immune to deadlocks and livelocks but unfair, in that if both threads are trying to take it then one of them can get starved
< 1741115716 673931 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do like the way you fixed contention, though
< 1741116367 726270 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, it's unfair
> 1741117887 981143 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153254&oldid=152470 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+173) 10/* Invited to CAPI */ new section
> 1741117914 150729 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153255&oldid=151912 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+173) 10/* Invited to CAPI */ new section
> 1741117940 461316 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153256&oldid=152990 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+162) 10/* CAPI */ new section
> 1741117963 894881 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153257&oldid=153253 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1) 10
> 1741118706 307175 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fontmess14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153258&oldid=153242 5* 03Buckets 5* (+4469) 10
< 1741123221 157812 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-084-063-063-254.084.063.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1741123234 269629 :ursa-major!114efe6c39@2a03:6000:1812:100::11f3 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741123235 75959 :ManDeJan!3da94070ba@user/mandejan QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741123235 214771 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741123235 872761 :JAA!~JAA@user/meow/JAA QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741123236 48012 :j4cbo!sid186930@id-186930.helmsley.irccloud.com QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741123236 178241 :krychu!~krychu@static.19.136.108.65.clients.your-server.de QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741123236 220983 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741123236 285105 :laerling!~laerling@user/laerling QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1741123252 673984 :ursa-major!114efe6c39@2a03:6000:1812:100::11f3 JOIN #esolangs ursa-major :Bailey Bjornstad
< 1741123252 702390 :ManDeJan!3da94070ba@user/mandejan JOIN #esolangs ManDeJan :ManDeJan
< 1741123252 702454 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony JOIN #esolangs moony :Kaylie! (she/her)
< 1741123252 702487 :JAA!~JAA@user/meow/JAA JOIN #esolangs JAA :JustAnotherArchivist
< 1741123252 702495 :j4cbo!sid186930@id-186930.helmsley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs j4cbo :j4cbo
< 1741123252 702511 :krychu!~krychu@static.19.136.108.65.clients.your-server.de JOIN #esolangs * :krychu
< 1741123252 702526 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly JOIN #esolangs FireFly :firefly
< 1741123252 702557 :laerling!~laerling@user/laerling JOIN #esolangs laerling :lærling
< 1741123328 934981 :ursa-major!114efe6c39@2a03:6000:1812:100::11f3 QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded
< 1741123524 105744 :ursa-major!114efe6c39@2a03:6000:1812:100::11f3 JOIN #esolangs ursa-major :Bailey Bjornstad
< 1741123976 868547 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-084-063-063-254.084.063.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN #esolangs Melvar :melvar
> 1741125039 125777 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153259&oldid=153194 5* 03Buckets 5* (+13) 10
> 1741125052 684027 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153260&oldid=153176 5* 03Buckets 5* (+12) 10
> 1741125063 337609 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Height14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153261 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1967) 10Created page with "Height is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2025, inspired by [[Length]]. (There is a restriction Were none Of the Text are Intersecting.) {| class="wikitable" |- ! Character Height !! Instructions |- | 1x || Start the name of A Destination 
< 1741125068 969665 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
> 1741125098 491205 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Height14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153262&oldid=153261 5* 03Buckets 5* (+280) 10
> 1741125119 26229 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Height14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153263&oldid=153262 5* 03Buckets 5* (+280) 10
< 1741126586 962685 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
> 1741131311 624720 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Waffles14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153264&oldid=152914 5* 03Buckets 5* (+234) 10
> 1741132333 52693 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Waffles14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153265&oldid=153264 5* 03Buckets 5* (-234) 10
< 1741132949 96046 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1741133158 903309 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
< 1741133416 955480 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1741135952 163049 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Finallymyjourneyis-complete14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153266 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+908) 10Created page with "An esolang is Finallymyjourneyis-complete if it follows these criteria: * Every program is written as a single string, takes a single string as input, and gives a single string as output. * For every string, there is a program that ignores the input and
> 1741136380 677039 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Finallymyjourneyis-complete14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153267&oldid=153266 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+48) 10strengthen conditions a bit
> 1741136401 394573 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Finallymyjourneyis-complete14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153268&oldid=153267 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+0) 10
< 1741137292 887088 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1741138138 546397 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153269&oldid=153257 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+268) 10
> 1741138868 860430 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10deleted "[[02Hotcrystal0/Q9+10]]": redirect left over after correcting the title of a page
> 1741138887 802155 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153270&oldid=153157 5* 03Ais523 5* (+139) 10/* Page in need of deletion */ deleted
> 1741143727 926012 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153271&oldid=153269 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+26) 10fixing headings
< 1741143971 609529 :tromp!~textual@2a02:a210:cba:8500:4189:9487:9abd:f78 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
> 1741144388 910278 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153272&oldid=153247 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1066) 10
> 1741145874 550212 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fun 2 code14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153273&oldid=133078 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+65) 10
> 1741146016 83486 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153274&oldid=153271 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+191) 10
> 1741146208 825802 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mutzerium14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153275&oldid=153053 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (-19) 10
> 1741146635 361692 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mutzerium/STL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153276&oldid=153043 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+678) 10
< 1741153232 599128 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :An idea I had for a new move in Pokemon would be a move that requires recharge if it knocks out the target or breaks a substitute but otherwise it doesn't need a turn to recharge.
< 1741154659 118962 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what about if it hits a Protect shield, or misses?
< 1741154766 424475 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :My idea was that it would not require recharge in that case; it only requires recharge if it knocks out the target or breaks a substitute.
> 1741155136 307254 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153277 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+676) 10Created page with "Is it gonna be islp-complete Lv.1, Lv.2 or Lv.3? You forget that islp-complete has 3 levels. Also I suggest the name to be "pica" instead of "capi". ~~~~"
> 1741155452 297186 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153278&oldid=151977 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+676) 10
> 1741155651 436224 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Fun 2 code14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153279 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+172) 10Created page with "
 tr-uck pl-uck  d-uck  f-un 2 rhyme~   s-ick, st-ick,  t-ick,  d-inner time~   sp-it, spl-it,  sm-it,  sh-ut your eyes~   w-itch st-itch  s-itch  b-ig surprise~ 
"
> 1741155912 568330 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153280&oldid=153278 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+54) 10
> 1741158337 267672 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Waffles14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153281&oldid=153265 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+1559) 10Proof of Turing completeness
> 1741158354 514223 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Waffles14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153282&oldid=153281 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+0) 10Fix category
< 1741158682 447709 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1741158740 347834 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1741160661 129344 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153283&oldid=153274 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+716) 10
> 1741160859 901596 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153284&oldid=153283 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+24) 10
> 1741161032 709600 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Fun 2 code14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153285&oldid=153279 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+51) 10
< 1741161060 79262 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1741161126 722010 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153286&oldid=153284 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+203) 10/* Syntax */
> 1741161220 94380 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153287&oldid=153246 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+1499) 10Categories, current computational class
> 1741161666 199948 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153288&oldid=153286 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+135) 10
> 1741162078 126510 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153289&oldid=153288 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+241) 10
> 1741163790 113465 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Bespoke14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153290 5* 03Neon 5* (+135) 10s
> 1741163980 593602 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Bespoke14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153291&oldid=153290 5* 03Neon 5* (+71) 10updated
< 1741164016 111472 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1741165366 484756 :Lymee!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe QUIT :Quit: zzzz <3
< 1741165490 937214 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe JOIN #esolangs Lymia :Lymia Aluysia
< 1741166398 430756 :Hoolootwo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org JOIN #esolangs * :Hooloovoo
< 1741166448 883132 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
> 1741166572 62929 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fun 2 code14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153292&oldid=153273 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+150) 10
< 1741166835 320284 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Quit: Leaving
> 1741169708 24374 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153293&oldid=153289 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1) 10
> 1741172062 438489 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fontmess14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153294&oldid=153258 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+0) 10
< 1741173178 930542 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
> 1741174270 632086 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153295&oldid=153280 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+56) 10
> 1741175367 231467 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Bespoke14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153296&oldid=153291 5* 03Neon 5* (+20) 10
> 1741175646 579935 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03TomosCode 5*  10New user account
> 1741175882 215239 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Bespoke14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153297&oldid=153296 5* 03Neon 5* (+181) 10update
> 1741176006 509731 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153298&oldid=153293 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-123) 10UTF8
< 1741176204 939367 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
> 1741176294 481238 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PrySigneToFry-complete14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153299&oldid=150696 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-19) 10
< 1741176300 933840 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
> 1741176396 843718 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PoeticChicken14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153300&oldid=152949 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+40) 10
> 1741176476 535552 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153301&oldid=153298 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+0) 10
> 1741176652 83980 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PrySigneToFry-complete14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153302&oldid=153299 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-98) 10/* If an Esolang is PrySigneToFry complete, it will also what-complete? */
> 1741176845 679096 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EuskoPy14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153303 5* 03Muxutruk 5* (+2392) 10Created the article for my new lang, I need help with formatting
> 1741177288 14421 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153304&oldid=153301 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+203) 10
> 1741177437 223164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153305&oldid=153304 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+3) 10this is an esolang, so why not add a couple of weird commands and make it harder to type
> 1741179185 410575 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153306&oldid=153259 5* 03Muxutruk 5* (+14) 10Added EuskoPy to Language List
> 1741179459 424546 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EuskoPy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153307&oldid=153303 5* 03Muxutruk 5* (-134) 10Fixed formatting
> 1741179547 145870 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Muxutruk14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153308 5* 03Muxutruk 5* (+81) 10My page
> 1741179862 591869 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153309&oldid=153191 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+31) 10
> 1741179871 136614 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153310&oldid=153309 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1) 10
> 1741180022 45187 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153311&oldid=153305 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+5) 10
< 1741181010 620132 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1741181264 587755 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: thank you for mentioning "skippable frames" in zstd format https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2025-02.html#lZsb . https://facebook.github.io/zstd/doc/api_manual_v1.5.7.html supports emitting these with an API function https://facebook.github.io/zstd/doc/api_manual_v1.5.7.html , which I would have missed in that documentation without
< 1741181265 87928 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that unguessable keyword.
> 1741181738 618247 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153312&oldid=153133 5* 03TomosCode 5* (+134) 10/* Introductions */
> 1741181777 728759 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PrySigneToFry-complete14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153313&oldid=153302 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+663) 10
> 1741181863 454122 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:TomosCode14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153314 5* 03TomosCode 5* (+28) 10Created page with "== TomosCode == I like code."
> 1741182206 657229 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153315&oldid=153311 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+40) 10The arrows are reversed! And we can also make a Monospace font that <- is  and -> is !
> 1741182963 17069 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153316&oldid=153315 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+75) 10
> 1741183411 270510 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Abacus Computer14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153317 5* 03TomosCode 5* (+302) 10Created page with "Abacus Computer is an abacus language.  == Instruction == The one instruction is ADD A <- B.
 A is a pointer to a number.
 B is too.
  == Pointers == * 0 is mapped to the IP. * Most others are just pointers to numbers. * The max is mapped to the input.
< 1741184272 921048 :trumae!~Thunderbi@170.231.88.254 JOIN #esolangs trumae :trumae
> 1741184660 579609 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153318&oldid=153316 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+149) 10
> 1741184952 711692 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153319&oldid=153318 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+65) 10
< 1741186112 448604 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1741186155 162582 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Bonenaut7 5*  10New user account
> 1741186793 176257 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153320&oldid=153312 5* 03Bonenaut7 5* (+135) 10
< 1741187102 127532 :trumae!~Thunderbi@170.231.88.254 QUIT :Quit: trumae
> 1741188130 886807 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fun 2 code14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153321&oldid=153292 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-21) 10the pinyin doesnt even rhyme with the letter
> 1741188166 934629 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fun 2 code14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153322&oldid=153321 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10
> 1741188457 351650 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Fun 2 code14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153323&oldid=153285 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1) 10
> 1741188472 342265 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Fun 2 code14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153324&oldid=153323 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10
> 1741188485 137744 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Fun 2 code14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153325&oldid=153324 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10
> 1741188602 808810 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Fun 2 code14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153326&oldid=153325 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10
< 1741188884 243188 :mtm_!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1741188921 610338 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
> 1741189007 82734 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153327&oldid=112461 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+67) 10See also
> 1741189028 200947 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153328&oldid=153327 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-13) 10
< 1741189129 931416 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: why does nauty use two different bit orders for bit masks internally...
< 1741189130 194410 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: yeah. it's a distraction or unwelcome, i'll leave now.
> 1741190751 469562 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Project Euler/514]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153329&oldid=152778 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+278) 10False example
< 1741195277 881200 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1741198543 965113 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1741199248 940357 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
> 1741200009 245217 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PoeticChicken14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153330&oldid=153300 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+19) 10Category
> 1741200117 105281 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Abacus Computer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153331&oldid=153317 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+35) 10Category
< 1741201849 993118 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :b_jonas
< 1741202086 221113 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
> 1741205175 127663 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fontmess14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153332&oldid=153294 5* 03Buckets 5* (+0) 10
> 1741205251 799806 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153333&oldid=153306 5* 03Buckets 5* (+14) 10
> 1741205275 111403 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153334&oldid=153260 5* 03Buckets 5* (+13) 10
> 1741205287 153988 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Heighto14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153335 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1614) 10Created page with "Heighto is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2025, inspired by [[Length]] and More similar to the Original  Plan for [[Height]], but To make it happen, the Edited [[Height]] only had to change a Few things Because of  A transformation of Sc
> 1741207091 597762 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153336&oldid=153333 5* 03Buckets 5* (+14) 10
> 1741207096 949786 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153337&oldid=153334 5* 03Buckets 5* (+13) 10
> 1741207104 789046 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Overlap14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153338 5* 03Buckets 5* (+4077) 10Created page with "Overlap is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2023.  (The name of the first Variable is 8.)  {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | 
 hey fhet's zeees OouooH SNEP IT'S A FOooCKING TIGER \ 605)  You should get kmc in this channel. kmc has good quotes.   `quote kmc   686)  COCKS [...]  truly cocks   Well, in theory.
> 1741208719 217802 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Waffles14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153341&oldid=153282 5* 03Buckets 5* (+502) 10
> 1741211938 523108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Unknown-based14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153342 5* 03Buckets 5* (+218) 10Created page with "Esoteric programming Languages Either in 2 subcategories,  1. Yet to be known base for their Esolang, for Recategorization.  2. They do not know what base their Esolang is and Will stay that way.  [[Category:Concepts]]"
> 1741211985 165767 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fontmess14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153343&oldid=153332 5* 03Buckets 5* (+27) 10
> 1741212111 973400 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Height14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153344&oldid=153263 5* 03Buckets 5* (+27) 10
> 1741212127 350755 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Heighto14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153345&oldid=153335 5* 03Buckets 5* (+27) 10
> 1741212519 963805 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fontmess14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153346&oldid=153343 5* 03Buckets 5* (+40) 10
> 1741212658 949598 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fontmess14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153347&oldid=153346 5* 03Buckets 5* (+78) 10
< 1741213229 186981 :visilii_!~visilii@85.172.77.105 JOIN #esolangs * :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1741213443 201476 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Buckets14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153348 5* 03Buckets 5* (+243) 10Created page with "
If you have questions for [[User:Buckets]], Just put them here. There is no guarantee that [[User:Buckets]] will answer/Respond Immediately, They have Important Things to do.
"
< 1741213450 17259 :visilii!~visilii@213.24.126.217 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1741218136 419301 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1741218900 608753 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153349&oldid=153319 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+995) 10
< 1741219420 911888 :mtm_!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1741219575 135527 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
> 1741220962 580638 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afefoj14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153350 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+2471) 10Created page with "{{lowercase}} {{wrongtitle|title=''rotate}}  rotate is an esolang made by islptng. The structure of the program are express
> 1741221395 218241 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afefoj14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153351&oldid=153350 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+5186) 10
> 1741221478 462514 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afefoj14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153352&oldid=153351 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+451) 10/* Examples */
> 1741221706 24310 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03I am islptng 5*  10moved [[02Afefoj10]] to [[Afefoj-Flak]]
> 1741221745 504625 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afefoj-Flak14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153355&oldid=153353 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+15) 10
> 1741221764 980424 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afefoj14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153356&oldid=153354 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-25) 10Blanked the page
> 1741222339 403374 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nybblang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153357&oldid=153204 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+2198) 10/* Turing-Complete Nybblang */ Actual classes
< 1741222608 474197 :citrons!~citrons@alt.mondecitronne.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1741222618 611037 :citrons!~citrons@alt.mondecitronne.com JOIN #esolangs citrons :citrons
< 1741222873 993428 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1741223263 305261 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153358&oldid=152607 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+240) 10/* My esolangs */
> 1741224005 100715 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153359&oldid=153295 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+558) 10
> 1741224033 362266 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153360&oldid=153359 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+58) 10
> 1741226955 36323 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153361&oldid=153360 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+66) 10
> 1741226959 341975 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Clockwise14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153362&oldid=83427 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+282) 10Computational class
> 1741227314 43568 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153363&oldid=153349 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+285) 10
> 1741229386 606497 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153364&oldid=151954 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+593) 10/*  */ new section
> 1741231111 577689 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Afefoj-Flak14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153365 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+594) 10Created page with "I think the correct title is ro 1741239455 344849 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153375&oldid=153374 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+148) 10
> 1741239485 782097 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153376&oldid=153375 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+18) 10fix
< 1741239559 261913 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(O, also I added a section now about why not git, fossil, etc. There are other version control systems too but I don't know enough about them to compare them.)
> 1741239652 325709 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153377&oldid=153376 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+107) 10/* Class */
> 1741239804 874118 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153378&oldid=153377 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+126) 10
> 1741240015 641760 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153379&oldid=153378 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+86) 10/* Class */
< 1741241459 353980 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-ED74-98A7-B9EB-96-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1741242093 480328 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I had also consider storage format; possibly SQLite can be used because indexing and that stuff would be useful; however, other implementations can use other formats if they would be better. The storage format is not intended to be interoperable although the format of the global state and protocol is intended to be interoperable.)
< 1741242966 15435 :molson!~molson@172-103-21-94-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
> 1741243083 815608 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fun 2 code14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153380&oldid=153372 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+54) 10
> 1741243378 610541 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited/Versions14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153381&oldid=153245 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+158) 10
> 1741244726 344831 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153382&oldid=153272 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+115) 10/* Commands */
< 1741245111 286573 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1741245493 477796 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1741248859 104638 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153383&oldid=153368 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+9774) 10
< 1741249836 990621 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Quit: Leaving
> 1741251539 359124 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Cellular Automaton related thingy14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153384 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+15677) 10Created page with " 
 x = 819, y = 965, rule = B3/S23 474bo$472bo3bo$477bo$472bo4bo$473b5o4$475b2o$472b3ob2o$473b4o$474b2o2$ 471b2o$469bo4bo$475bo$469bo5bo$470b6o7$400b3o$399b5o$399b3ob2o$402b2o 3$404bobo$404bo2bo5bo$404bobo3b5o$406b
> 1741251605 391298 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153385&oldid=152996 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+59) 10
> 1741251814 351613 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ratt14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153386&oldid=130145 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+83) 10Derivatives
< 1741251957 801444 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1741254288 714333 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry/Cellular Automaton related thingy14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153387 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+22502) 10Created page with " 
 ExpandRLE 
 
 x = 2079, y = 2546, rule = B2e3air4ijwz/S12-in3k4r5i 974bo43bo42bo43bo41bo43bo$513bo43bo42bo43bo41bo43bo243bo43bo42bo4
> 1741254341 248312 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry/Cellular Automaton related thingy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153388&oldid=153387 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+21668) 10
> 1741254398 819331 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry/Cellular Automaton related thingy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153389&oldid=153388 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+46306) 10
> 1741254428 663745 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry/Cellular Automaton related thingy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153390&oldid=153389 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+6710) 10
> 1741254443 87517 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry/Cellular Automaton related thingy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153391&oldid=153390 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+10449) 10
> 1741258200 501137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry/Cellular Automaton related thingy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153392&oldid=153391 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+761) 10
> 1741258685 885839 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PrySigneToFry-complete14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153393&oldid=153313 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+90) 10
< 1741259810 481503 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yo-Way-Yo!
< 1741260601 685256 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :*.net *.split
> 1741262197 356947 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153394&oldid=153383 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+682) 10/*  */
> 1741262529 918626 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153395&oldid=153394 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+93) 10/*  */
< 1741262549 96164 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
> 1741262565 254226 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153396&oldid=153395 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+18) 10/*  */
< 1741262712 165733 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
> 1741263291 886352 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153397&oldid=153396 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+109) 10
> 1741263498 253373 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153398&oldid=153397 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+64) 10/*  */
> 1741267409 127060 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153399&oldid=153398 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+454) 10
> 1741267672 827265 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Fizzie14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153400&oldid=152497 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+857) 10
< 1741268167 785090 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
> 1741274165 504708 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BitChanger Busy beaver/Proof14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153401&oldid=153102 5* 03Int-e 5* (+3661) 10reduce number of candidates through normalization and a non-termination criterion
> 1741274694 349175 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BitChanger Busy beaver/Proof14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153402&oldid=153401 5* 03Int-e 5* (+5) 10fix count
> 1741277554 775608 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153403&oldid=153310 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+114) 10
> 1741277605 362586 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153404&oldid=153403 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+9) 10
> 1741277846 223928 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153405&oldid=153379 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+130) 10
> 1741277884 915627 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153406&oldid=153277 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+156) 10
> 1741277893 347196 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153407&oldid=153406 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1) 10
> 1741278608 399117 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153408&oldid=153287 5* 03H33T33 5* (+317) 10
< 1741279977 944560 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1741284096 513975 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153409&oldid=152036 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+118) 10
> 1741284735 743427 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153410&oldid=153409 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+26) 10
< 1741285180 481532 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1741285540 676952 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153411&oldid=153410 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+22) 10
> 1741285865 930791 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153412&oldid=153411 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+299) 10
> 1741285887 704655 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153413&oldid=153412 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10
> 1741285919 950926 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153414&oldid=153413 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+36) 10
> 1741286016 399222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153415&oldid=153414 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+3) 10
> 1741286026 650685 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153416&oldid=153415 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1) 10
> 1741286130 65215 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stairlang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153417&oldid=153170 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+1496) 10Turing complete
> 1741286171 701637 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stairlang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153418&oldid=153417 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+6) 10Tag system formatting
> 1741286331 532792 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153419&oldid=153361 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+132) 10
> 1741286477 430784 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153420&oldid=153404 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+96) 10
> 1741287115 124343 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153421 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+24) 10Redirected page to [[Sharp flat]]
> 1741287131 389188 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Sharp flat14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153422 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+117) 10Created page with "==Title== Why not ? ~~~~"
> 1741291778 308046 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153423&oldid=153419 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+659) 10
> 1741292139 840148 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153424&oldid=153399 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+105) 10/*  */
> 1741292398 960915 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Vector14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153425&oldid=152940 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+1965) 10Turing complete
> 1741292952 363161 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Vector14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153426&oldid=153425 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+387) 10/* Computational class */
> 1741293718 146486 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sembly14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153427&oldid=152926 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+36) 10
> 1741294130 872680 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fsx14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153428&oldid=152919 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+138) 10Turing complete
< 1741294355 716372 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
> 1741294399 158583 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Licar14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153429&oldid=130624 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-506) 10Apparently an excuse for the interpreter
> 1741294539 910585 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153430&oldid=153337 5* 03Buckets 5* (+93) 10
> 1741294607 71382 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153431&oldid=153336 5* 03Buckets 5* (+94) 10
> 1741294624 428587 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Happy14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153432 5* 03Buckets 5* (+2460) 10Created page with ": ''The title of this article is not correct because of technical limitations. The c
> 1741294783 187631 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153433 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+79) 10Created page with "trans-what? "Girl" is definitely not an object in CGoL.  conlay's game of wife?"
> 1741294841 950783 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Happy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153434&oldid=153432 5* 03Buckets 5* (+71) 10
> 1741295081 365932 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153435&oldid=153433 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+541) 10
> 1741295089 319036 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fontmess14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153436&oldid=153347 5* 03Buckets 5* (+2) 10
> 1741295375 320122 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07S*n14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153437&oldid=153178 5* 03Buckets 5* (+3) 10
> 1741296898 453832 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lythnology14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153438&oldid=152726 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+479) 10Finite state automata
> 1741300158 169819 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10deleted "[[02Talk:Fun 2 code10]]": possibly a copyright violation  even if it isn't, it's definitely offtopic (writing an esolang about something does not cause that thing to become ontopic), and the talk page is not about the esolang on the page it's attached to
> 1741300713 642327 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Fun 2 code14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153439 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+171) 10Created page with "The Python interpreter is wrong. It should be three words that rhyme, not four. ~~~~"
> 1741300781 155916 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153440&oldid=153423 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+123) 10
> 1741301631 444341 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EmojiCoder14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153441&oldid=138302 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+18) 10Total, no infinite looping
> 1741303104 372226 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LLL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153442&oldid=79042 5* 03Stkptr 5* (-11) 10Finite state automata
> 1741303230 587395 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153443&oldid=153416 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+44) 10
> 1741303237 988608 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153444&oldid=153443 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1) 10
> 1741303247 312677 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153445&oldid=153444 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10
< 1741304221 953660 :molson_!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-1603-2FAB-3B76-FB57-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
< 1741304337 944132 :molson!~molson@172-103-21-94-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
> 1741304370 1766 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153446&oldid=153385 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+2) 10/* Like */
> 1741304456 215584 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hexagon says jump to line a if cell b is n and increment cell b by c if cell b equals d and output cell b is cell b equals e.14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153447&oldid=124464 5* 03Buckets 5* (+0) 10/* Truth machine */
> 1741305095 506470 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/This page is this page14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153448 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+147) 10Created page with "This page is [https://conwaylife.com/wiki/User:Hotcrystal0/This_page_is_this_page this page.]  correlation does not imply causation."
> 1741305113 165766 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153449&oldid=153358 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+579) 10/* Others */
< 1741305817 177366 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1741305950 869070 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
< 1741306380 646561 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1741308286 743024 :lynndotpy6!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 QUIT :Quit: bye bye
< 1741308341 550157 :lynndotpy6!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 JOIN #esolangs lynndotpy :lynn
> 1741309128 747350 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BitChanger Busy beaver/Proof14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153450&oldid=153402 5* 03Int-e 5* (+143) 10/* Haskell Code */ ini: Add cases that start with a right excursion and end left from there, e.g. }<<<}< ; the equivalent }}<}}<<< is longer. For now, generate both. No change in output.
> 1741309357 189470 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry/Cellular Automaton related thingy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153451&oldid=153392 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-107637) 10Replaced content with "This becomes l-stroke oscillator(or spotlight if you want) 
 x = 7, y = 18, rule = B2cei3acqr4ekqr5aeir6-cn/S1e2ak3aekqr4cjknrty5eikq6cknSuper 2.A2B$2.2AB$.A3B$.A3B$2.3B$2.3B$2.3B$2.3B$2.3B$2.3B
> 1741309447 88791 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry/Cellular Automaton related thingy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153452&oldid=153451 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+5343) 10
< 1741309721 709168 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :In a UNIX system, do they sometimes add user groups that are for everyone except one user?
< 1741309999 885343 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sometimes there might be a sense in which every user is interactive, including users whose login shells are /bin/false or otherwise disabled, *except* for `nobody`. But even in that case, dynamic users are excluded too.
< 1741310016 573142 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, I forgot the first part: no, but there are groupings of users that do the same thing.
< 1741310156 401700 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION eager to learn about other answers

> 1741313116 240088 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153453&oldid=153405 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+81) 10
> 1741313501 712239 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153454&oldid=153453 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+14) 10
> 1741313762 149502 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Hexagon says jump to line a if cell b is n and increment cell b by c if cell b equals d and output cell b is cell b equals e.14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153455 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+458) 10Created page with "==Computational class== Only a finite amount of cells can be referenced in a finite program. Assuming unbounded cells and the increment argument is n
> 1741315208 502153 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pentagon says bitwise shift right a by b and bitwise andnot c, negate the result and add d, store it to e, if it is less than or equal to zero, goto line f.14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153456 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+304) 10Created page with "It's inspired by [[Hexagon says jump to line a if cell b is n and increment cell b by c if cell b equals d and output
> 1741315546 524383 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pentagon says bitwise shift right a by b and bitwise andnot c, negate the result and add d, store it to e, if it is less than or equal to zero, goto line f.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153457&oldid=153456 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+613) 10
> 1741315883 200104 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153458&oldid=44702 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+2475) 10Turing complete
> 1741322068 847318 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:114]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153459 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+216) 10Created page with "==Computational class== This is actually likely Turing complete since * can both multiply and divide. See [[counter machine]]. ~~~~"
> 1741322299 368744 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153460&oldid=153254 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+368) 10/* Is the StackBBQ interpreter canonical? */ new section
> 1741323097 752098 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Smalc14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153461&oldid=111556 5* 03Stkptr 5* (-22) 10
> 1741323261 418971 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153462&oldid=153460 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+587) 10/* Is the StackBBQ interpreter canonical? */
< 1741323264 949858 :molson_!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-1603-2FAB-3B76-FB57-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1741323521 550330 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StackBBQ14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153463&oldid=151052 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+23) 10/* Interpreter */
< 1741323527 603916 :molson!~molson@172-103-21-94-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
> 1741323558 349966 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Stkptr14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153464 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+558) 10Created page with "Alright. Help me rewrite it. --~~~~"
> 1741324004 175901 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello Plus Plus/Compiler14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153465&oldid=109132 5* 03Superstitionfreeblog 5* (+4052) 10
> 1741325057 792216 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153466&oldid=148747 5* 03Superstitionfreeblog 5* (+24) 10/* Compiler */
> 1741326316 277907 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153467&oldid=153440 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+962) 10
> 1741327941 607440 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153468&oldid=153454 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+141) 10
> 1741327973 935484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153469&oldid=153468 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+22) 10
> 1741328068 199166 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153470&oldid=153469 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+94) 10
> 1741329233 212656 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153471&oldid=153467 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+706) 10
> 1741331229 425917 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Stkptr14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153472&oldid=153464 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+325) 10
> 1741331239 234016 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StackBBQ14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153473&oldid=153463 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+1137) 10Rewrite the summary to match the behavior of the example interpreter
< 1741331514 447775 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1741331564 635238 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1741331807 257830 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StackBBQ14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153474&oldid=153473 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-39) 10
> 1741332287 689186 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153475&oldid=153462 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+100) 10/* Is the StackBBQ interpreter canonical? */
> 1741332637 121758 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153476&oldid=153471 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+53) 10
> 1741336489 835460 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fun 2 code14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153477&oldid=153380 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+269) 10
> 1741336807 464409 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fun 2 code14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153478&oldid=153477 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+259) 10
< 1741337015 531077 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1741337215 323774 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153479&oldid=153459 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+277) 10
> 1741339760 136928 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Reflecto14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153480 5* 03QuantumV 5* (+3120) 10Created page with "Reflecto is an esoteric 2d stack-based programming language inspired [[Befunge]] and [[Fish]] made by [[User:QuantumV]]. Each instruction is a single symbol on a text file that performs operations like reflecting the instruction pointer, manipulating stack values, and
> 1741339788 355802 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MazeLang14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153481 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+3413) 10Created page with ":''This is not a Works-in-Progress. You're invited to add more examples, or more commands(if LXGW WenKai Mono GB supports and shows full-width).'' MazeLang is designed by PSTF which is inspired by [[Befunge]].  It uses ideographs instead of letters.  = Plot intro
> 1741339792 345548 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Reflecto14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153482&oldid=153480 5* 03QuantumV 5* (-24) 10
> 1741339836 203140 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153483&oldid=153431 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+15) 10
> 1741339917 190674 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153484&oldid=153483 5* 03QuantumV 5* (+15) 10
> 1741340036 110601 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Factorial14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153485&oldid=151111 5* 03QuantumV 5* (+71) 10
> 1741340062 244533 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Factorial14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153486&oldid=153485 5* 03QuantumV 5* (+2) 10oops forgot a =
> 1741340171 305998 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:XKCD Random Number14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153487&oldid=151803 5* 03QuantumV 5* (+88) 10
> 1741340304 18912 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153488&oldid=151513 5* 03QuantumV 5* (+61) 10
> 1741340328 546391 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153489&oldid=151433 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+923) 10/* You're currently not active now. */ new section
< 1741341479 449874 :029AAR240!Ae@linux.touz.org NICK :Koen_
< 1741341483 316249 :Koen_!Ae@linux.touz.org NICK :Ae_
< 1741341492 671132 :Ae_!Ae@linux.touz.org NICK :someonetookmynic
< 1741341544 436343 :someonetookmynic!Ae@linux.touz.org NICK :LKoen
> 1741342382 967101 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Cobl703 5*  10New user account
> 1741342619 771969 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153490&oldid=153320 5* 03Cobl703 5* (+137) 10
> 1741344765 998062 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153491&oldid=153449 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+22) 10More harder to input but still valid in website name.
< 1741345578 344008 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1741346023 247227 :^Dan!~xxx@89.136.142.218 JOIN #esolangs * :...
> 1741346202 744390 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MazeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153492&oldid=153481 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (-26) 10
> 1741346665 12289 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MazeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153493&oldid=153492 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+12) 10
< 1741346903 419947 :^Dan!~xxx@89.136.142.218 PART :#esolangs
< 1741347700 307132 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
> 1741349395 87165 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PrySigneToFry-complete14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153494&oldid=153393 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+230) 10
> 1741354851 636723 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Abacus Computer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153495&oldid=153331 5* 03TomosCode 5* (+29) 10
< 1741357878 399823 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
> 1741358036 373225 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Dgrilawidbanana 5*  10New user account
> 1741358215 144166 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153496&oldid=153490 5* 03Dgrilawidbanana 5* (+230) 10/* Introductions hehe */
< 1741359476 882448 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION → Bathtub    🐋

< 1741359722 944262 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1741360965 520358 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153497&oldid=153476 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+905) 10/* Where are you from, and how can you understand Chinese? */ new section
> 1741361218 389395 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153498&oldid=153497 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+245) 10
> 1741362069 660169 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/My Rate to the user that I know14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153499&oldid=151639 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+15) 10
> 1741365078 641273 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153500&oldid=153420 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+61) 10
> 1741366291 911687 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153501&oldid=153500 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+242) 10
> 1741366792 154246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153502&oldid=153501 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1083) 10
> 1741367142 356692 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153503&oldid=153502 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+92) 10
> 1741369480 801118 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Reflecto14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153504&oldid=153482 5* 03QuantumV 5* (+29) 10/* Instructions */
> 1741370900 51288 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5*  10moved [[02Hello Plus Plus/Compiler10]] to [[Hello++/Compiler]]
> 1741370900 74494 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5*  10moved [[02Talk:Hello Plus Plus/Compiler10]] to [[Talk:Hello++/Compiler]]
< 1741371930 662350 :lynndotpy6!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 QUIT :Quit: bye bye
< 1741372001 35431 :lynndotpy6!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 JOIN #esolangs lynndotpy :lynn
< 1741373089 968788 :tromp!~textual@2a02:a210:cba:8500:1c51:23bb:8be4:b3b8 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1741374715 679018 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153509&oldid=153407 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+179) 10
> 1741377303 28192 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Blockfunge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153510&oldid=120391 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+821) 10Turing complete
> 1741377649 75542 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153511&oldid=153479 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+363) 10/* Computational class */
> 1741379312 737860 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153512&oldid=153430 5* 03Buckets 5* (+10) 10
> 1741379322 123460 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153513&oldid=153484 5* 03Buckets 5* (+11) 10
> 1741379346 221537 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hats14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153514 5* 03Buckets 5* (+17568) 10Created page with "Hats or 
 1741379412 576466 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hats14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153515&oldid=153514 5* 03Buckets 5* (+7) 10
< 1741380146 860148 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1741381392 781555 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would want to add TRON-8 as a "Designate Other Code Set (With Standard Return)" into ISO 2022, and possibly also make up TRON-7 for use where 7-bit codes are required (e.g. MIDI), and a ISO 2022 code for that too (since ISO 2022 otherwise works with 7-bit codes as well as 8-bit codes, but only for character codes that do not use DOCS)
< 1741381541 405567 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Some early protocols and formats were only using 7-bit codes, but later was made 8-bit clean, and then later software again ended up effectively restricting them to 7-bit codes due to the requirement of 8-bit codes to be UTF-8, so it end up being reversed too!!!
< 1741385709 624366 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1741385810 517740 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1741387681 76703 :molson!~molson@172-103-21-94-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1741387683 97210 :molson_!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-4AA6-40A1-3D21-B621-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
< 1741390846 933856 :tromp!~textual@2a02:a210:cba:8500:1c51:23bb:8be4:b3b8 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1741390986 394148 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153516&oldid=153503 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-1417) 10
< 1741393815 113558 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( typedef double Int; )
< 1741394223 909838 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is it the attempt to be confusing, or something else, or both?
< 1741394240 127608 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :just a line of code I just wrote unironically
< 1741394273 52846 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :O, OK, but why is it written like that?
< 1741394344 956665 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(doubles work as 54 bit signed integers if all your divisions are exact)
< 1741394368 197628 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's written like that because I was switching between 32 and 64 bit ints before
< 1741394428 780805 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK
< 1741394958 363411 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1741395219 636595 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Universal machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153517&oldid=128366 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+3613) 10Weak universal
> 1741396206 263340 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153518&oldid=153498 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+566) 10/*  */ new section
> 1741404168 652248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Universal machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153519&oldid=153517 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+72) 10/* Weak universal machines */ Error about the 2,3 machine
> 1741404728 371740 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153520&oldid=153424 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+455) 10
> 1741404886 666243 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Trump Bot14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153521 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+10) 10Created page with "{{Banned}}"
< 1741405675 63383 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Quit: Leaving
> 1741408904 458706 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Universal machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153522&oldid=153519 5* 03Ais523 5* (+22) 10/* Example universal machines */ fix misleading language, which made it easy to confuse the implementing and implemented languages
> 1741413592 494476 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153523&oldid=153520 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+160) 10
> 1741413819 288869 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153524&oldid=147681 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+216) 10/* Bad news */ new section
> 1741414928 595653 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153525&oldid=153518 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+923) 10/* EternalGolf */ new section
> 1741415663 762491 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MazeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153526&oldid=153493 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+606) 10
< 1741417902 488747 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1741417919 384033 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1741418003 146446 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1741418509 938018 :tromp!~textual@2a02:a210:cba:8500:b97d:6786:7e63:884f JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1741420863 7090 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Quit: brb
< 1741421244 428205 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :maeve (she/her)
> 1741421728 180417 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153527&oldid=153525 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+10) 10Fixed festival
< 1741422726 429160 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1741422776 877581 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :maeve (she/her)
< 1741422780 830295 :tromp!~textual@2a02:a210:cba:8500:b97d:6786:7e63:884f QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1741423214 849650 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1741423428 991394 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :maeve (she/her)
> 1741424310 595137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Reflecto14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153528&oldid=153504 5* 03QuantumV 5* (+95) 10fixonacci
> 1741426982 290790 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Abacus Computer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153529&oldid=153495 5* 03TomosCode 5* (+27) 10
> 1741427029 449436 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Beta14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153530&oldid=141251 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (-26) 10category was added because of ambiguity, but [[Vague]] isn't categorized as uncomputable
> 1741427306 667377 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Reflecto14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153531&oldid=153528 5* 03QuantumV 5* (-83) 10
< 1741429293 435818 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1741430933 337613 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brain:D14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153532&oldid=80678 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (-26) 10should ambiguity make a language uncomputable?
> 1741434756 513146 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Subst14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153533 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+14360) 10+[[Subst]] (part 1 due to filter rules)
> 1741434788 850772 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Subst14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153534&oldid=153533 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+37460) 10(part 2)
> 1741434801 952628 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Subst14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153535&oldid=153534 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+2288) 10(part 3)
> 1741434865 601267 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153536&oldid=153513 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+12) 10+[[Subst]]
> 1741434878 178910 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hakerh40014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153537&oldid=151549 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+12) 10+[[Subst]]
> 1741435028 538799 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Subst14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153538&oldid=153535 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+498) 10
> 1741435050 485364 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Subst14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153539&oldid=153538 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (-497) 10
< 1741435488 911550 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1741435564 439562 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1741435733 972760 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hakerh40014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153540&oldid=152728 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+359) 10/* Afth Language */
> 1741435882 418813 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Subst14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153541&oldid=153539 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+23) 10
< 1741436633 876539 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1741441214 766040 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153542&oldid=153527 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+184) 10
> 1741441406 137148 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153543&oldid=153516 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+33) 10
> 1741441738 212865 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153544&oldid=153542 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+166) 10
> 1741441896 454475 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153545&oldid=153544 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+243) 10
> 1741442331 813607 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153546&oldid=153543 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+21) 10
< 1741443833 882270 :alec3660!~quassel@user/alec3660 QUIT :Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.
< 1741443870 272733 :alec3660!~quassel@user/alec3660 JOIN #esolangs alec3660 :alec
> 1741443882 310980 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153547&oldid=153545 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+576) 10/* How well can you speak Chinese? */ new section
> 1741444398 385945 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153548&oldid=153547 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+250) 10
> 1741444406 542211 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153549&oldid=153548 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1) 10
> 1741447699 416458 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category talk:Unknown-based14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153550 5* 03Leomok2009 5* (+155) 10Created page with "What does this category mean? Does it mean that the user does not know if the esolang is stack-based, cell-based etc because it is difficult to categorise?"
> 1741447829 466503 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category talk:Unknown-based14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153551&oldid=153550 5* 03Leomok2009 5* (+54) 10
> 1741448248 534844 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Unknown-based14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153552&oldid=153342 5* 03Leomok2009 5* (+284) 10
> 1741448262 516807 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Unknown-based14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153553&oldid=153552 5* 03Leomok2009 5* (+0) 10
> 1741448301 347723 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Unknown-based14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153554&oldid=153553 5* 03Leomok2009 5* (+33) 10
< 1741451890 284511 :int-e_!~noone@213162081219.public.telering.at JOIN #esolangs int-e :Bertram
< 1741451920 285864 :int-e_!~noone@213162081219.public.telering.at QUIT :Client Quit
< 1741451970 305622 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, meh.
< 1741454778 553153 :tromp!~textual@2a02:a210:cba:8500:1c51:23bb:8be4:b3b8 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1741454796 915742 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Subst14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153555&oldid=153541 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+0) 10/* Terms */
> 1741454847 802472 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Subst14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153556&oldid=153555 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (-1) 10/* Terms */
> 1741454920 291651 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Subst14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153557&oldid=153556 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+28) 10/* Terms */
< 1741459624 6654 :tromp!~textual@2a02:a210:cba:8500:1c51:23bb:8be4:b3b8 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1741459699 884814 :tromp!~textual@2a02:a210:cba:8500:1c51:23bb:8be4:b3b8 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1741460437 877712 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Uncomputable14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153558 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+24) 10Redirect to computable, this is an important concept so it should be easily accessible
> 1741460761 636099 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Computable14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153559&oldid=147930 5* 03Corbin 5* (+148) 10Not "simulated", but "recognized". Very important nuance.
> 1741461033 844238 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brain:D14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153560&oldid=153532 5* 03Corbin 5* (+184) 10A second reason that this one isn't TC: it's trivial to recognize.
> 1741461688 69241 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Computational class14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153561&oldid=90249 5* 03Stkptr 5* (-1) 10/* Turing-completeness */ Constant function bounded storage machines are FSMs
> 1741461832 574965 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BitChanger Busy beaver/Proof14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153562&oldid=153450 5* 03Int-e 5* (+3624) 10/* Using Timbuk */ new section
> 1741462004 931635 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BitChanger Busy beaver14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153563&oldid=152858 5* 03Int-e 5* (+85) 10/* Confirmed optimal */ 15 is done
> 1741462103 963392 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BitChanger Busy beaver/Proof14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153564&oldid=153562 5* 03Int-e 5* (+11) 10/* Size 14 holdouts */ wordify
> 1741462344 337004 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BitChanger Busy beaver14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153565&oldid=153563 5* 03Int-e 5* (+0) 10/* Confirmed optimal */ count
> 1741462383 180942 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BitChanger Busy beaver14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153566&oldid=153565 5* 03Int-e 5* (+0) 10/* Confirmed optimal */ tnuoc
> 1741462628 295182 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BitChanger Busy beaver/Proof14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153567&oldid=153564 5* 03Int-e 5* (+65) 10Add links for context.
< 1741463012 797574 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(That was fun, but surely there's a better tool than Timbuk for this... ideally one that can guess its own approximations for constructing automata.)
< 1741463050 812716 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(That = https://esolangs.org/wiki/Bitchanger_Busy_beaver/Proof#Using_Timbuk for those that ignore the esolangs bot)
> 1741463598 54698 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Oracle machine14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153568 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+5055) 10Create page
> 1741463785 654339 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BitChanger Busy beaver/Proof14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153569&oldid=153567 5* 03Int-e 5* (+31) 10/* Using Timbuk */ fix typo, clarify where the current cell is
< 1741464440 126110 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :TIL about Timbuk.
> 1741464894 306683 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brain:D14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153570&oldid=153560 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1528) 10Compute the partition function.
> 1741465005 444508 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07List of complexity classes14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153571&oldid=153076 5* 03Corbin 5* (+4) 10/* R */ Bluelink.
> 1741465448 377995 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153572&oldid=153512 5* 03Buckets 5* (+235) 10
< 1741465512 536479 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I've worked in term rewriting and Thomas Genet is a big name there, so I couldn't help being aware... heck I even worked with tree automata. But this is the first time I've actually used that tool.
> 1741465519 678958 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153573&oldid=153536 5* 03Buckets 5* (+236) 10
> 1741465527 980024 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Oracle14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153574&oldid=51332 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+64) 10Link to oracle machine
> 1741465556 634564 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fe14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153575 5* 03Buckets 5* (+2854) 10Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=
Fe
}} 

< 1741465596 356794 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But there's plenty I don't know. Do people have automata based nontermination checkers for Turing machines (in the context of searching for busy beavers)? Because that's basically what's happening here... the BitChanger program is treated as a Turing machine.
> 1741465665 319928 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fe14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153576&oldid=153575 5* 03Buckets 5* (+74) 10
> 1741465708 647099 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Oracle machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153577&oldid=153568 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+64) 10/* Computational class of machines with a halting oracle */
> 1741465772 667575 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BitChanger Busy beaver/Proof14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153578&oldid=153569 5* 03Int-e 5* (+4) 10/* Using Timbuk */ specify version used
> 1741466521 279440 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07List of complexity classes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153579&oldid=153571 5* 03Corbin 5* (+785) 10/* EXP */ NP ranges over polynomial amounts of random bits, not exponential. Also, explain why P is a subclass of EXP with a couple examples.
> 1741467364 569160 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07List of complexity classes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153580&oldid=153579 5* 03Corbin 5* (+504) 10/* PSPACE */ List out some specific useful examples for us.
< 1741467606 910105 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1741468771 592339 :tromp!~textual@2a02:a210:cba:8500:1c51:23bb:8be4:b3b8 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
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> 1741469335 358902 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fontmess14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153581&oldid=153436 5* 03Buckets 5* (+512) 10
> 1741469507 278676 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Computable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153582&oldid=153559 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+838) 10expound
< 1741470384 430139 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
> 1741470445 474469 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brain:D14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153583&oldid=153570 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+647) 10/* Computational complexity */
> 1741470482 970768 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brain:D14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153584&oldid=153583 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+41) 10The class is unknown due to ill-defined execution
> 1741471587 37879 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153585&oldid=153546 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+55) 10
< 1741472482 29707 :Hoolootwo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb2+deb11u1 - https://znc.in
< 1741472564 445395 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org JOIN #esolangs hooloovoo :Hooloovoo
> 1741473763 428493 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brain:D14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153586&oldid=153584 5* 03Corbin 5* (+192) 10/* Computational complexity */ Don't remove a claim just because you don't grok it.
< 1741475371 610448 :tromp!~textual@2a02:a210:cba:8500:d904:ecda:6ce1:ab96 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1741478056 91460 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10deleted "[[02Category:Unknown-based10]]": undiscussed category
< 1741478565 444347 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
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> 1741481779 293240 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Quantum Nothing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153587&oldid=147494 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+53) 10
> 1741481853 518295 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brain:D14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153588&oldid=153586 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+61) 10
> 1741481877 498394 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brain:D14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153589&oldid=153588 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+0) 10
< 1741482059 787923 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1741482134 433690 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Quantum Nothing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153590&oldid=153587 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+132) 10
> 1741483364 571251 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153591&oldid=153446 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+577) 10
> 1741484035 54967 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fun 2 code14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153592&oldid=153478 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (-2) 10
> 1741486572 582120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153593&oldid=153591 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+0) 10
> 1741487520 874317 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Fugue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153594&oldid=82504 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+189) 10
> 1741487764 745849 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fun 2 code14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153595&oldid=153592 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+160) 10
< 1741489502 5069 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1741489532 29935 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 JOIN #esolangs op_4 :op_4
> 1741491252 657048 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Osaka-Lang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153596&oldid=152650 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+308) 10Total
> 1741492251 638335 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Iterate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153597&oldid=153036 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+650) 10/* arbitrary memory */ iterate is Probably turing complete
> 1741493524 375896 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153598&oldid=152637 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+1559) 10Probably Turing complete
> 1741494101 80576 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153599&oldid=153470 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+0) 10
> 1741495489 330330 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153600&oldid=153598 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+3) 10/* Disambiguity */ Fix parser
> 1741495794 384564 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BitChanger Busy beaver/Proof14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153601&oldid=153578 5* 03Int-e 5* (+3236) 10/* Using Timbuk */ works for size 16 too
> 1741496034 742948 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BitChanger Busy beaver14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153602&oldid=153566 5* 03Int-e 5* (+87) 10/* Confirmed optimal */ so it looks like size 16 allows just one more step than size 15, interesting
> 1741496489 920201 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:BitChanger Busy beaver14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153603&oldid=153104 5* 03Int-e 5* (+306) 10things I did
> 1741497068 168022 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153604&oldid=153600 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+1666) 10Clarify the examples
> 1741497262 378822 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153605&oldid=153604 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+188) 10/* Reset current bit */ Note that it is incorrect
> 1741498131 454745 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07OIIAOIIA14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153606&oldid=152293 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+83) 10
> 1741499114 490266 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:OIIAOIIA14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153607&oldid=152420 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+65) 10
> 1741499330 753292 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fucktion14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153608&oldid=152062 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+71) 10
> 1741499533 756786 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BitChanger Busy beaver/Proof14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153609&oldid=153601 5* 03Int-e 5* (+261) 10/* Haskell Code */ The code never generated programs with more than one top-level loop. Output up to size 16 is unchanged.
> 1741499537 272755 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07XXXoYYY14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153610&oldid=152177 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+6) 10It is bounded
< 1741501357 282401 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
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< 1741504344 469788 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
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< 1741504691 474926 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.72.59.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
> 1741504962 347238 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153611&oldid=153599 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+30) 10
< 1741506020 610914 :tromp!~textual@2a02:a210:cba:8500:d904:ecda:6ce1:ab96 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1741507737 44499 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs lisbeths :lisbeths
< 1741507759 801268 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1741507810 954496 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
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> 1741509642 962951 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Afth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153612&oldid=152486 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+185) 10Turing complete
> 1741510115 749123 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SCOOP14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153613&oldid=152139 5* 03Stkptr 5* (-12) 10It's almost certainly Turing complete, the only question is infinite looping, which might be able to be done with recursion, mutual recursion, some specific infinite loop I haven't noticed, so on
> 1741510210 380842 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zidryx myno14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153614&oldid=151966 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+77) 10
> 1741510816 785539 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Varia14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153615&oldid=152897 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+501) 10
> 1741511395 854168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Iterate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153616&oldid=153597 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+565) 10/* arbitrary memory */
> 1741511584 802424 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brain:D14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153617&oldid=153589 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+107) 10/* See also */
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> 1741515585 335261 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153618&oldid=153611 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+108) 10
> 1741515934 14417 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bussin X14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153619&oldid=147762 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+5990) 10Rebuilt the page entirely to fix the problems it once had.
> 1741516447 482069 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153620&oldid=153618 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+84) 10
> 1741517119 690318 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153621&oldid=153620 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+508) 10
> 1741517512 27025 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07lang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153622&oldid=144920 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+234) 10
> 1741517946 982341 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153623&oldid=153573 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+31) 10Added FaceDev's programming languages (Bussin X and Yappacino)
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< 1741523790 918866 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
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> 1741526746 654512 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153624&oldid=153621 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+183) 10
> 1741533023 28557 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Basilisk14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153625&oldid=150593 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (-3) 10can presumably execute [[Banana Scheme]] programs
> 1741533451 994270 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BytFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153626&oldid=76577 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+574) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the BytFuck programming language on GitHub and altered the Unimplemented category tag to Implemented.
> 1741533509 913732 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BytFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153627&oldid=153626 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+830) 10Introduced an examples section with three incipial members, this being a bitwise character replication program, a truth-machine, and a negating cat program.
> 1741537183 736149 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Basilisk14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153628&oldid=153625 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+322) 10/* Computational class */ Uncomputable, even if you can summon Basilisks
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> 1741541265 19228 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Oracle machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153629&oldid=153577 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+158) 10/* Computational class of machines with a halting oracle */
> 1741546328 317145 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07/Interpreters14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153630 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+3137) 10Add an implementation in Python
> 1741546439 947228 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Zopium 5*  10New user account
> 1741546534 86956 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153631&oldid=153605 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+272) 10Add infobox with link to implementations
> 1741547247 741113 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153632&oldid=153496 5* 03Zopium 5* (+165) 10
> 1741547262 399697 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Zopium14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153633 5* 03Zopium 5* (+291) 10Created page with "'''''Hello, world!'''''  I go by '''Zo''' or just '''Zopium'''. I'm also interested in computers,   I code in JavaScript, C, Python (list sorted in which i code in the most).   Please note that I'm not from an English speaking country, so there might be grammatical er
< 1741547796 441991 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1741549273 343694 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1741549502 669909 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07JC-071514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153634&oldid=151812 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+36) 10
> 1741550042 671781 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TMIDL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153635&oldid=151833 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+50) 10It implicitly has bounded memory
> 1741550229 58747 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ToArrowScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153636&oldid=151997 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+71) 10It's probably Turing complete, just would need a while loop
> 1741550642 591784 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0710 digits, 100 digytes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153637&oldid=151703 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+6) 10/* Categories and References */ It has finite memory
> 1741550661 28950 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Jp3214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153638&oldid=151649 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+36) 10
> 1741550912 959853 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fun Video Game14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153639&oldid=152277 5* 03Zopium 5* (+167) 10/* Implementations */
> 1741551219 87100 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SATire14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153640&oldid=151455 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+29) 10The examples imply that there is arbitrary conditional looping and the ability to store at least two unbounded stacks
> 1741551472 759663 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fontmess14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153641&oldid=153581 5* 03Buckets 5* (+61) 10
< 1741551896 706274 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :SATire... oh meh it's the other SAT
> 1741551979 336778 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Heighto14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153642&oldid=153345 5* 03Buckets 5* (-27) 10
> 1741551997 598439 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Height14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153643&oldid=153344 5* 03Buckets 5* (-27) 10
< 1741551997 938071 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, I was wondering what that could have been.
< 1741552014 228907 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :But then I looked at it and had the same reaction.
< 1741553174 144174 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night
> 1741554034 366546 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Coffee is the answer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153644&oldid=151428 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+124) 10
> 1741557865 426734 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153645&oldid=153623 5* 03Buckets 5* (+11) 10
> 1741557910 801913 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153646&oldid=153572 5* 03Buckets 5* (+10) 10
> 1741557919 500682 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Omit14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153647 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1447) 10Created page with "Omit is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2020. (There is 1 Restriction, When 'Omit Letter' Happens, The word count afterwards must Omit That letter from Usage for that command.) {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | Omit e |
> 1741563107 345080 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Omniglot14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153648&oldid=151398 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+329) 10/* Why does it have to do the same thing? */ new section
> 1741563130 847284 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Omniglot14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153649&oldid=151382 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+23) 10
> 1741563442 333632 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfffffuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153650&oldid=151315 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+12) 10This is nontrivially Turing complete, a proof sketch should be provided
> 1741565515 62240 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Decorat14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153651 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+1301) 10Created page with "Decorat is a type of assembly language designed by islptng.  == Syntax == Each line is:  keyword argument For example:  put 15 To define a label, write  labelname: put 15 To use a label, enclose it in <> :  jnz  Comment, like other assembly, is a 
> 1741566041 355094 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Decorat14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153652&oldid=153651 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+368) 10
> 1741566082 779118 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Decorat14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153653&oldid=153652 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+11) 10
< 1741568267 932035 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1741569246 764727 :Everything!~Everythin@94.153.31.251 JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
< 1741575594 862089 :Everything!~Everythin@94.153.31.251 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1741575670 82433 :Everything!~Everythin@94.153.10.203 JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
< 1741577775 966670 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1741578869 595845 :lynndotpy6!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 QUIT :Quit: bye bye
< 1741578943 104718 :lynndotpy6!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 JOIN #esolangs lynndotpy :lynn
< 1741579200 354206 :Taneb0!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 QUIT :Quit: I seem to have stopped.
< 1741579271 952726 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 JOIN #esolangs Taneb :Nathan van Doorn
< 1741583026 18433 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1741583200 253724 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
> 1741584521 429734 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153654&oldid=153524 5* 03 5* (+157) 10/* Bad news */
> 1741585041 683625 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StormScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153655&oldid=153213 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-1886) 10Replaced content with "{{Distinguish/Confusion|StormLang}} {{WIP}}"
< 1741588088 650980 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se JOIN #esolangs ski :Stefan Ljungstrand
< 1741589995 697393 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1741590512 451824 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1741590530 933385 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1741590738 882679 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1741590759 360655 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1741590821 37800 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1741594514 661709 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1741594563 83937 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
> 1741595879 970014 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ixth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153656&oldid=133280 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+1754) 10Turing complete
> 1741595981 623038 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ixth14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153657&oldid=153656 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+56) 10/* Commands */
< 1741598178 413872 :Everything!~Everythin@94.153.10.203 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1741604200 616624 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.72.59.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :
> 1741604577 542347 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0710 digits, 100 digytes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153658&oldid=153637 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (-6) 10"It supports infinity cell" "3 and 4 means variable"
< 1741609469 532208 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
> 1741612664 454349 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153659&oldid=153475 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+123) 10/* A new esolang */ new section
> 1741612675 445773 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153660&oldid=153659 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+93) 10
< 1741614358 499819 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1741614985 836138 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Zopium14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153661 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+407) 10Created page with "==Quote== :''Please note that I'm not from an English speaking country'' - What non-English speaking country? France? Germany? Italy? ~~~~"
> 1741619143 41694 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153662&oldid=153085 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+57) 10/* Operators & variables */
< 1741620593 567274 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1741624169 222430 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] yayimhere
< 1741624192 122205 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hello I haven't been here for a long time. so hi.
< 1741625355 139516 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 QUIT :Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)
< 1741625590 215171 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] yayimhere
< 1741625977 359925 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 QUIT :Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)
< 1741626012 224367 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] yayimhere
< 1741626168 203362 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1741626309 923084 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1741626389 35666 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1741626607 215255 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] yayimhere
< 1741626665 786433 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder...
< 1741626667 658567 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmmm
< 1741626679 217268 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok so we all know that the more rules a system has the more complex it is
< 1741626685 125820 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the less complex it can behave
< 1741626714 194418 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but is it possible to make an esolang that with approximate exponential rate will, with increase in rules increase complexity
< 1741626723 768856 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like the more rules you add the more complexity
< 1741626737 957281 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and that relation is approx exponetial
< 1741627054 854407 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 QUIT :Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)
> 1741627272 592616 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RocketRace14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153663&oldid=149674 5* 03RocketRace 5* (+44) 10
< 1741628424 214891 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] yayimhere
< 1741628808 506304 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmmmmmmm
< 1741628869 926422 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait that would mean (I think) that at a finite amount of rules it would be Turing complete
< 1741628882 109728 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :AND that at any amount higher than that I would be more than Turing complete
< 1741628883 546909 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right?
< 1741628938 378566 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yayimhere: Welcome back.
< 1741628950 234744 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks korvo :)
< 1741628993 480675 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It depends on exactly what you mean by "complexity". If you're thinking of space and time resources, then yes.
< 1741629090 838083 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean complexity as in like, how many states are achivable
< 1741629116 152791 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Trivially yes.
< 1741629142 232715 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :For example, a dictionary is exponentially big in the number of letters in the underlying alphabet.
< 1741629180 535282 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Think of words as (accepting) states of automata over that alphabet.
< 1741629393 933217 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yayimhere: None of this has much to do with Turing-completeness though; a TC system must have infinitely many states.
< 1741629399 829403 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :true
< 1741629429 385288 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well that would be uninteresting
< 1741629432 889499 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :whatever
< 1741629794 504916 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait. oho im getting ideas agian
< 1741629796 428024 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what if you
< 1741629797 545043 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like
< 1741629814 227304 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :most musical things you can make into drive
< 1741629827 439526 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like if you have an effect you can usually make it some sort of drive
< 1741629831 169533 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but what if you like
< 1741629836 787408 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :did that with the values in a language
< 1741629841 882548 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :mad all the operators into drive
< 1741629848 10933 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wtf am I even saying
< 1741629852 82788 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i gotta think about dis
< 1741630471 938242 :lynndotpy6!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 QUIT :Quit: bye bye
< 1741630546 111491 :lynndotpy6!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 JOIN #esolangs lynndotpy :lynn
< 1741630926 215446 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@37.96.98.137 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1741631382 475068 :molson_!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-4AA6-40A1-3D21-B621-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1741631409 486615 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-C6D3-DF06-C36B-D6C6-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
< 1741631538 614879 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-C6D3-DF06-C36B-D6C6-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1741631685 485461 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-C6D3-DF06-C36B-D6C6-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
< 1741631839 107638 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-C6D3-DF06-C36B-D6C6-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1741631862 443717 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-C6D3-DF06-C36B-D6C6-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
< 1741632094 336678 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-C6D3-DF06-C36B-D6C6-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1741632341 443444 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-C6D3-DF06-C36B-D6C6-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
< 1741632459 2026 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-C6D3-DF06-C36B-D6C6-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1741632619 460232 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-1D10-B0D2-294D-38C0-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
< 1741633318 36982 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-1D10-B0D2-294D-38C0-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1741634244 957223 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-1D10-B0D2-294D-38C0-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
< 1741635152 219961 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-1D10-B0D2-294D-38C0-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1741635266 455063 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-1D10-B0D2-294D-38C0-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
< 1741635442 444766 :molson_!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-1D10-B0D2-294D-38C0-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
< 1741635763 579493 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-1D10-B0D2-294D-38C0-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving
> 1741636358 131392 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153664&oldid=153660 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+549) 10/* A new esolang */
> 1741636971 70631 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153665&oldid=152723 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+1127) 10rehaul
> 1741639317 604043 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153666&oldid=153664 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+135) 10
> 1741639347 187572 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153667 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+3) 10Created page with "WIP"
> 1741639374 873386 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153668&oldid=153585 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+40) 10
> 1741639415 1715 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153669&oldid=153668 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+6) 10
> 1741639518 819153 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153670 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+223) 10Created page with "Can I add hotcrystal0s version which replaces the ** with [] for improved readability and being interpreted easier? ~~~~"
> 1741639553 825445 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153671&oldid=153666 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+54) 10/* A new esolang */
> 1741639774 857420 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rotate-Flak14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153672 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+38) 10Created page with "{{lowercase}} #REDIRCT [[afefoj-Flak]]"
> 1741639790 792209 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rotate-Flak14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153673&oldid=153672 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1) 10
> 1741639799 932972 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rotate-Flak14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153674&oldid=153673 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10Redirected page to [[Afefoj-Flak]]
> 1741639822 658562 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153675&oldid=153665 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-119) 10/* other esolangs */
> 1741639896 243892 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PkmnQ14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153676&oldid=152603 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+132) 10
> 1741640678 29076 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153677&oldid=153667 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+76) 10
> 1741640705 436974 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153678&oldid=153677 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+2) 10
> 1741640775 974939 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153679&oldid=153645 5* 03Buckets 5* (+11) 10
> 1741640871 881243 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153680&oldid=153646 5* 03Buckets 5* (+10) 10
> 1741640888 434076 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07HAps14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153681 5* 03Buckets 5* (+840) 10Created page with "HAps is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2021. (It can Only Register 12 commands at a time and only 2 cells and starts with 1.) {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | 0 || +1. |- | 1 || -1. |- | 2 || Flip to the other cell. |-
< 1741641263 758146 :molson_!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-1D10-B0D2-294D-38C0-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1741641693 433539 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-16B6-C91C-4302-1C6D-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
< 1741641729 963824 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1741642917 423566 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-16B6-C91C-4302-1C6D-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1741644057 116559 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :My idea of the operating system design involved, one of the things it is, is that it is expect that if all inputs of a program are the same (regardless of how much time it takes to send those inputs) then the observable behaviour of the program will also be the same. Furthermore, you can filter and redirect I/O like on UNIX but this applies to all I/O rather than only standard I/O.
< 1741644071 688367 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think there are many advantages of doing these things in these ways.
< 1741644291 258515 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, I found a weather by finger (graph.no; send a blank line to port 79 for a description)
< 1741646161 11473 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1741646921 382144 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: define input
< 1741647007 460579 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :is getting the current time an input
< 1741647020 190919 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: complete determinism for the programs is probably not possible to implement efficiently on current hardware
< 1741647078 721181 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes. Getting the current time is an input, too. A program needs permission to determine the current date/time, like it does for any other I/O.
< 1741647109 729679 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :is thread scheduling an input
< 1741647162 967516 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. if i do  local=global++  from two different threads and global is an atomic counter
< 1741647206 305998 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Threads handled by the operating system cannot share memory like that, although you can have threads that are not handled by the operating system.
< 1741647277 706511 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :threads cannot share memory?
< 1741647376 246314 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :In order to handle these security guarantees, it will be necessary to disallow threads from sharing memory, although you can use "green threads" instead, in which case they can share memory. (Alternatively, shared memory may be restricted by the use of locks, etc; even then, it will be necessary to handle by the I/O system so that this can be overridden.)
< 1741647413 250666 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are things like rdrand
< 1741647433 467220 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :or equivalent things on other architectures
< 1741647435 334396 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :is that disabled?
< 1741647450 688370 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, they would have to be disabled.
< 1741647465 325576 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :cpu perf counters?
< 1741647479 601286 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Those would be disabled too.
< 1741647519 250399 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :so what do we do once we have this
< 1741647564 66383 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera PRIVMSG #esolangs :all forms of async io also disabled?  unix signals disabled?
< 1741647597 965564 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(And, if the program tries to execute an unimplemented instruction, the operating system might be able to emulate it, e.g. bit manipulation extensions.)
< 1741647657 224193 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :It is not UNIX, so it does not have UNIX signals (although it might have something similar). Async is still possible, although you can use proxies or modify the operating system to guarantee the order if necessary.
< 1741647839 195973 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Asynchronous I/O is sometimes necessary; there are reasons why it will be necessary to keep it, although there will be ways to work around it.)
< 1741648564 713697 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Which specific details will make it inefficient? (On some systems, using a hypervisor might help, maybe.) (Also, as I said there are a few compromises necessary but it will be needed to be possible to work around these easily.)
< 1741648849 640346 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: last time I looked, I had the impression that CPUs are built such that it's hard to eliminate all the non-determinacy from programs that deliberately try to be non-deterministic by doing weird things, and I think the only way around that would be some kind of overkill like a whole virtual machine. but I could be wrong.
< 1741648881 141189 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or perhaps you'd need some kind of compiler
< 1741649354 307717 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :deterministic compilation is an area of study
< 1741649398 647005 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I once was called into a meeting with weird C behavior and the only thing I could tell them is that you don't have any guarantees whatsoever
< 1741649406 646854 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :which was the wrong answer :/
< 1741649458 460273 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://blog.conan.io/2019/09/02/Deterministic-builds-with-C-C++.html
< 1741649649 480044 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, not only do we have non-deterministic cpus at this point, we also have non-deterministic compilers
< 1741649661 811346 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :but industry has been pushing back on that
< 1741650097 838454 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Making different CPU designs (and other details of the computer hardware) might be another possible consideration (although it can also be emulated on other types of computers, perhaps)
< 1741650796 179269 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Makes me think of Galois theory for programs. Like, the input-determines-output requirement is merely requiring a program to implement a function, right?
> 1741651187 953204 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StackBBQ14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153682&oldid=153474 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+901) 10Total
< 1741651943 71620 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, but a large number of applications have timing requirements
< 1741651956 683305 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then everything turns out broken
< 1741652015 426468 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :your compiler might use a random generator in some heuristical optimization, and the cpu might have a branch predictor which -despite it's name- gives unpredictable behavior
< 1741652245 488295 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Timing would still be possible, if the program is given a capability that can be triggered according to the amount of time that has passed (all I/O would be using capabilities, in this system). That is how I would have any programs dealing with time to work. (This is a bit like timerfd_create, but it is not a system call; you need to be given the capability when starting the program or from another capability.)
< 1741653727 859813 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1741653765 952967 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Timing requirements don't ruin the Galois theory, I think. Instead of just talking about functions, we'd talk about functions equipped with some writing monad.
> 1741654240 697111 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153683&oldid=153678 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+76) 10
> 1741655519 526764 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:.exe14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153684 5* 03Baldibacak 5* (+146) 10/* minecraft is not written in .exe */ new section
> 1741657510 259735 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Zip14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153685&oldid=103764 5* 03Zip 5* (+139) 10
> 1741657747 917078 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Zip/Thue/CT14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153686 5* 03Zip 5* (+1073) 10Created page with "[[Bitwise Cyclic Tag#The_language_CT|CT]] interpreter in Thue.  '''NOTE:''' Assumes that lines before the final ::= that don't contain ::= are comments. This is the behavior of Delic's Thue interpreter, but probably most interpreters don't
> 1741658958 991023 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/List of the users that is also in conwaylife.com14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153687&oldid=152249 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+34) 10
< 1741661818 427211 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
> 1741661925 753015 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Stkptr14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153688&oldid=153472 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+593) 10
> 1741662073 291050 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153689 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+563) 10Created page with "I hope it'll be Turing-Complete. --~~~~"
> 1741662355 686715 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Draft for Esolang14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153690 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+51) 10Created page with "Esolang is a language designed by islptng."
< 1741665934 982239 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1741666140 27588 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
> 1741667374 982851 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StackBBQ214]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153691 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+748) 10Created page with "StackBBQ2 is a computation model / esolang created by islptng.  It has a stack that holds bits, a queue Q that holds bits, and a stack P that holds queues. == Instructions == 1 push True to stack. 
 0 pops a, pops b, and pops c if !(a&
> 1741667802 927644 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StackBBQ214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153692&oldid=153691 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-98) 10
> 1741668148 742416 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StackBBQ214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153693&oldid=153692 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-33) 10
> 1741668428 343888 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StackBBQ214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153694&oldid=153693 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+793) 10
> 1741668773 541987 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StackBBQ214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153695&oldid=153694 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-124) 10/* Interpreter */
> 1741669035 71683 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153696&oldid=147633 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+1) 10"ZCX" -> "I am"
> 1741669358 282983 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Stkptr14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153697&oldid=153688 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+944) 10
< 1741669475 27581 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1741669579 599739 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, some versions of UNIX philosophy specify to use text, but I would instead use a type-length-value format, somewhat like DER, although there are some differences, including what types are available, as well as other differences.
< 1741669587 593630 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
< 1741669787 303162 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :UNIX philosophy also intend every program should be made as a filter, and in this case it should also intend, and the TLV format can be used. (The operating system does not enforce to use the TLV format, but it should be expected, that the included software, and other software designed for it, should use it. However, it does enforce that all I/O can be filtered.)
< 1741669899 986897 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(And, also, it would not use Unicode.)
< 1741670013 815557 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(There are three character string types: ASCII string, TRON string, and string of 8-bit characters of a specified character set (of which ASCII is a special case, which is common enough to be given its own code; ASCII also has a special case having to do with keyboard handling in command mode (rather than other modes such as text entry mode)).)
< 1741670143 874844 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I did make a list of what some of the data types will be. In addition to those ones, there is also the common stuff such as integer, sequence, key/value list, boolean, null, etc; but also such things as: text document, diagram, time series, tagged data, calculation, etc.
< 1741670568 831005 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se JOIN #esolangs * :Stefan Ljungstrand
> 1741671114 611788 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Stkptr14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153698&oldid=126825 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+1107) 10
> 1741671901 888966 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Stkptr14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153699&oldid=153697 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+16) 10/* StackBBQ */
> 1741672821 296522 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Piet-Q14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153700&oldid=74480 5* 03Stkptr 5* (-12) 10
< 1741673352 33992 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I would also have many other differences. Such as, application programs can request what character set is wanted for text input, as well as other keyboard modes. Another will be locales working. Some things do not belong in the locale setting and belong in a different setting instead, and some things do belong but should be made differently than other systems are doing.)
> 1741674561 6723 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ParScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153701&oldid=140505 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+100) 10/* Turing-completeness */
> 1741674671 855690 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Spleenmap14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153702&oldid=39734 5* 03Stkptr 5* (-6) 10FSM
> 1741674952 903443 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/List of "x bits, y bytes"14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153703&oldid=151641 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+36) 10
< 1741675294 944991 :Trigon!~Trigon@c-24-10-151-155.hsd1.ut.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1741675350 463793 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[072 digits, 50 digytes14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153704 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+514) 10Created page with "This language has 99 5-digit number memory, numbered 00-98. (99 is used for I/O.)  Instruction set:  0 let f t: f = t  1 add f t: f += t  2 sub f t: f -= t  3 mul f t: f *= t (mod 105)  4 div f t: f /= t  5 mod f t: f %= t  6 ant f t: f &= ~t
> 1741675466 496336 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153705&oldid=153491 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+71) 10/* My esolangs */
> 1741675487 331337 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153706&oldid=153705 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+27) 10
< 1741675842 110184 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1741677133 54944 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1741677206 857758 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1741677214 883261 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1741677680 215723 :Guest26!~Guest26@73.64.2.110.ap.yournet.ne.jp JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Guest26
< 1741677710 330646 :Guest26!~Guest26@73.64.2.110.ap.yournet.ne.jp QUIT :Client Quit
> 1741678337 814436 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:C0ffee14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153707&oldid=152616 5* 03C0ffee 5* (+11) 10
> 1741678439 681176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:C0ffee14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153708&oldid=153707 5* 03C0ffee 5* (+14) 10
> 1741678470 392483 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:C0ffee14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153709&oldid=153708 5* 03C0ffee 5* (-16) 10
> 1741678484 610718 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:C0ffee14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153710&oldid=153709 5* 03C0ffee 5* (+6) 10
> 1741678571 577548 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:C0ffee14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153711&oldid=153710 5* 03C0ffee 5* (-2) 10
> 1741681740 195591 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Targs14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153712&oldid=124719 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+11) 10no loops
< 1741689763 12139 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1741689799 436778 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : zzo38: last time I looked, I had the impression that CPUs are built such that it's hard to eliminate all the non-determinacy from programs that deliberately try to be non-deterministic by doing weird things, and I think the only way around that would be some kind of overkill like a whole virtual machine. but I could be wrong. ← most of that sort of nondeterminism is only observable using either a) race conditions, b) observation of timing, or c) 
< 1741689800 838034 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :obscure and not-widely-used CPU instructions
< 1741689841 229713 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a) and b) can mostly be eliminated by locking programs to a single thread at a time, and giving them no access to any timing sources
< 1741689856 749355 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :c) is harder because not all such instructions can be turned off
< 1741689889 917339 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's easy enough to enforce determinism in programs if you compile them from some other language rather than just running arbitrary machine code, though
< 1741690212 433301 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, plus there's a lot of timing inefficiency, so you have to be prepared to wait a LOT for a program that happens to run slower than expected so that the timeout can't be detected
< 1741690253 795563 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and yes, compiling with a trusted compiler does make it much easier
< 1741690915 140991 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :H*
< 1741690916 669213 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi *
> 1741692654 489901 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153713&oldid=153683 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+444) 10
> 1741695517 888920 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153714&oldid=153713 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+116) 10
> 1741695548 470213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153715&oldid=153714 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10
> 1741695563 559422 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153716&oldid=153715 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-75) 10
> 1741695583 874542 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153717&oldid=153689 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+135) 10
> 1741695893 411791 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153718&oldid=153716 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+226) 10
< 1741697410 481197 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: actually the "I only want to run code that's been compiled with a trusted compiler" problem is one that I will probably have to end up solving at some point
< 1741697445 21453 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you would need the compiler to somehow sign that the code had been compiled correctly, but it's not obvious how you would prevent incorrectly code being signed the same way
< 1741697511 460661 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the solutions involve either a) some sort of central compile-and-sign authority which everyone trusts (Apple is moving in that direction, although I don't think they're there yet), or b) every computer has its own set of signing keys, and does a compile-and-sign with its own keys, and those keys aren't readable by anything but the compiler (e.g. because you don't run code without first proving that it cannot read them)
< 1741697748 280171 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, you could also have a list somewhere of hashes of code that was known to have been compiled correctly, that's probably a better option
< 1741697781 694793 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i.e. you build it yourself and then add the hash of the resulting code to the list of code that's known to be OK – that doesn't require blocking read access to the list to untrusted programs, just write access
< 1741697820 982535 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, I think java and webassembly are kind of trying to work that way, with a slower compiler emitting an intermediate representation that can be verified and compiled on the machine that will run it. but deterministic execution is harder than just that. I was thinking a bit about that for multiplayer games where one machine can send untrusted code that other machines have to run as well, and 
< 1741697826 990602 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you want the code to run deterministically on multiple machines so that the game state stays synced among machines. 
< 1741697844 441938 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think nondeterminism is a capability
< 1741698229 143059 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's also multiple grades of deterministic execution, eg. (a) do you want to allow remote side effects within an execution environment eg. because the program can read the address of allocations, which are the same everywhere becuase you're using the same deterministic allocator, but can depend on what unrelated parts of the code do, (b) do you want stability among different versions of the compiler 
< 1741698235 186638 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or runtime so if you upgrade the result of the execution doesn't change, or even everything specified so deterministically that a clean reimplementation from the spec can result in the same execution, (c) do you want the same results on different underlying hardware, especially CPU architecture, (d) do you want to forbid timeouts, guarantee that if the code doesn't time out on one machine then you can 
< 1741698241 159275 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :run to completion in a reasonable time on your machine too.
< 1741698333 572495 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you also have to make decisions like "make allocation addresses deterministic" versus "make the program unable to act differently based on allocation addresses"
< 1741698447 897770 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :something I have been thinking about for a while is that it might be more efficient for programs to control their own memory map
< 1741698453 635579 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, the latter you do by allowing the user to declare user-defined types that have a nominal address, which you just assign sequentially using a global counter, regardless of the actual address
< 1741698464 330231 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i.e. it's the program rather than the OS that decides where in virtual memory to allocate the allocations
< 1741698482 409823 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that way you could get some tagging bits for free
< 1741698508 29218 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. you could tell what allocator allocated an object just by looking at a particular part of the address
< 1741698508 100801 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also dictionaries are hard to define in a deterministic way
< 1741698529 856152 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(that said, I don't know much about the performance of weirdly placed memory mappings)
< 1741698556 144184 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and even sorting if you allow the user to define custom comparison functions
< 1741698572 540130 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's like ten different compromises for how you can handle these
< 1741698589 560198 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, I see, the problem is not so much making it determinstic as defining what the deterministic behaviour is
< 1741698593 740027 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because many of the details will be really arbitrary
< 1741698659 980080 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for sorting, I think it is sufficient to a) make the sort stable and b) force the comparison function to be entirely pure, i.e. it cannot affect the program in any way other than its return value
< 1741698668 24751 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the OS assigning addresses isn't really a problem unless you want to make a very efficient compiled program, I just want a less efficient interpreter so there the actual absolute address won't matter, only the relative address within the small number of memory pools into which I address relatively with an index
< 1741698739 943492 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think forcing the address might be a simpler solution anyway than having a separate, parallel address scheme – although it would depend on what program you were running, most likely
< 1741698766 962528 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but if you want to control the actual address, you are already allowed to do that, but of course then you may need some architecture-dependent code because not all addresses may be allowed
< 1741698772 752821 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the main disadvantage of forcing the address is that you don't get ASLR, although I guess in a deterministic execution scheme ASLR wouldn't matter as it couldn't have any effect on the program anyway
< 1741698790 152053 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, it is possible to control the address even on modern computers, just people don't normally bother
< 1741698805 492476 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my plans for that are along the lines of "keep the kernel the same but replace the dynamic loader"
< 1741698840 614153 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I don't think even ASLR would be incompatible, as long as you don't let the untrusted program get a pointer to anything that's randomized, only to areas that you allocate, and you divide the address space to areas that the randomization can use and ones to where you allocate in advance
< 1741698863 21130 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, or you could randomize certain bits of the pointer but not others
< 1741698869 971759 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I just think you could run into problems on an alien architecture where eg. all your pointers are negative, if on normal architectures all your pointers are positive, or something like that
< 1741698881 382983 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ASLR already doesn't randomize the low bits
< 1741698907 350403 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: oh, my plans involved the compiler taking advantage of this but the source code not taking advantage of it, so it can easily be architecture-specific
< 1741698974 118663 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't see how ASLR not randomizing the low bits helps
< 1741698995 318354 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it doesn't – but my plan would involve not randomizing some of the middle bits
< 1741699003 163019 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see
< 1741699005 224399 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and that doesn't seem conceptually different from not randomizing the low bits
< 1741699219 54694 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean, if ASLR doesn't randomize the high bits so eg. your runtime is loaded above 0x00004000_00000000 and you allocate the untrusted program's data below 0x00004000_00000000 then you have no conflicts; but if ASLR doesn't randomize the low bits so it always loads at a 16k boundary that won't help you because you want continuous chunks so you can't just use memory that's not 16k aligned for the 
< 1741699225 20235 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :untrusted data
< 1741699273 340958 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, tagging bits should ideally be as high as possible (while staying within virtual address space) so that you have more contiguous memory if you need it – although I fear that might make the page tables less efficient
< 1741699324 56757 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what? no, tagging bits should be low because you'll only have pointers to aligned data anyway
< 1741699348 854944 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well that depends on what you mean by tagging bits
< 1741699350 709872 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean, "free" tagging bits that you get by actually allocating the memory there, rather than masking them off
< 1741699364 773149 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you are masking away the bits then you want them at the bottom
< 1741699388 923703 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah yes
< 1741699465 207305 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I haven't thought much about these actual addresses because I'm mostly thinking of a not too optimized interpreter implementation 
< 1741699525 795996 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I wouldn't handle native pointers, but like indexes into a small fixed number of arenas that the interpreter can allocate anywhere
< 1741699545 130574 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right
< 1741699558 536974 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm basically thinking of a similar system except where the arenas have fixed addresses
< 1741699575 696684 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that would also add to memory safety because even if I mess up and have a corrupted pointer data it will point into valid memory of the simulated program
< 1741699612 700108 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(there may be multiple types of pointers that point to different sets of arenas, but that's fine)
< 1741699637 857080 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, I see, the reason it increases safety is that it is necessarily pointing to data rather than, say, a return address on the stack
< 1741699645 770776 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1741699653 817231 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and because you are protected from wild pointers already, it doesn't matter if you corrupt a pointer value
< 1741699698 318395 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have been considering a scheme where allocations are power-of-2 size and array indexing is masked to wrap around the array – that would gain memory safety in a similar manner (and as a bonus fixes one of the variants of Spectre)
< 1741699782 196950 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and what I really want is that some of the arenas are just mapped read-only fixed data that's created when I compile the interpreter, so that there's little overload for spinning up new interpreter instances, even if they load a lot of built-in objects, to avoid the stereotypical 90s problem where a tiny little Java program needs to consume hundreds of megabytes to load some libraries. or ideally it's 
< 1741699788 223396 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :not even separate arenas, but just a read-only section mapped over the start of the normal arena, so that half of the code doesn't even have to distinguish the read-only and read-write section 
< 1741699817 437108 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one of the motivations for my "free tagging" scheme in the first place was so that you could have string pointers that could point to either heap data or static data, and deallocate them only if they were on the heap
< 1741699844 286814 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you can do that even without free-tagging – it's possible to check where the static data is and/or where the heap is – but there might be some overhead in storing the location
< 1741699852 537095 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that seems pretty similar to your plans
< 1741699865 810292 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah
< 1741700005 269448 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and this kind of memory safety can be used either alone, which is useful if you want a C interpreter that can run existing C code, since type safety can't be guaranteed there; or you can use it together with a type system and memory safety system that guarantees that all pointers are valid, as another line of defense
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< 1741707148 66207 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Non-determinism is a property of the machine, not an optional capability, because it's a structural property. Categorically speaking, Rel and Set don't have the same monoidal structure.
< 1741707167 783861 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm a little surprised to hear folks talking of trusting cryptography over proofs. Cryptography might not be well-founded.
< 1741707248 775970 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If there's interest, I could add a section to the E article, or start an entirely new article, about the design of data structures and algorithms for repeatable deterministic behavior when replicated across a network.
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< 1741707321 499295 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :FWIW I think that worrying about pointer values is already too low-level to talk about determinism, unless you want the *underlying machine* to behave deterministically and you're specifying *its* behavior instead of the algorithm under study.
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< 1741707796 85199 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : ais523: Non-determinism is a property of the machine, not an optional capability ← I meant at the language level – you can define a language such that anything that allows the program to observe nondeterminism requires a value of a particular type to use
< 1741707827 605413 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do appreciate that deterministic behaviour cross-network is much harder than doing it in a single-threaded program, though!
< 1741707913 451758 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. Actually, that's another instance of the same idea; The Network is always partially ordered, but it's fairly simple to implement a system that builds an idempotent commutative monoid ("CRDT") on top.
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< 1741707968 456250 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But if that's acceptable, then I think that Galois theory of algorithms is *extremely* relevant, as it concerns when two different algorithms implement the same function, or when two different programs implement the same algorithm, etc.
< 1741708011 579472 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION → Bathtub    🐳

< 1741708173 443903 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Also, I know that folks were fixated on timing, but there are some non-deterministic systems that have deterministic outputs modulo timing and throughput; the classic example is Petri nets, which model non-deterministic stoichiometry of chemical reactions.
< 1741708225 499504 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I might be coming at this from a different angle; I long ago realized that questions like "But how will I do I/O if I'm isolated?" are not even wrong.
> 1741708233 886673 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:IPALang14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153761 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+183) 10Created page with "Does this mean every program can be pronounced? So this esolang has a spoken form as well? ~~~~"
< 1741711120 674308 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is there a usermode way to clear the branch predictor state on Intel x86-64 processors? (I know you can clear the indirect branch predictor nowadays because of Spectre – but don't think that affects the predictor for direct branches, although I might be wrong)
< 1741711173 692425 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the purpose would be to be able to benchmark code without the branch predictor already being trained on it
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> 1741712876 781427 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153764&oldid=153408 5* 03H33T33 5* (+261) 10
> 1741713438 348951 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153765&oldid=153764 5* 03H33T33 5* (+356) 10
> 1741713539 720878 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153766&oldid=153765 5* 03H33T33 5* (+0) 10
> 1741713793 708361 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Braincrap14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153767 5* 03Huywallz 5* (+4032) 10Created page with "{{lowercase}} {{infobox proglang | name = Braincrap | paradigms = imperative | author = [[Huywallz]] | year = [[:Category:2025|2025]] |memsys=[[:Category:Cell-based|Cell-based]] | class=[[:Category:Turing complete|Turing complete]] | majorimpl = C | influence = [[Bra
> 1741714141 706842 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hakerh400/Rectangle with rational side length14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153768 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+9846) 10Created page with "=== Statement ===  Any rectangle that is tiled with finitely many rectangles that have at least one rational side, also has at least one rational side.  === Proof ===  We perform strong induction on the number of small rectan
> 1741714162 912375 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/List of users who are also on the TBG forums14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153769&oldid=153760 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+48) 10
> 1741714164 68739 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hakerh40014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153770&oldid=153537 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+93) 10/* Proofs */
> 1741714298 915152 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hakerh400/Rectangle with rational side length14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153771&oldid=153768 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+3) 10/* Statement */
> 1741714460 539222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hakerh400/Rectangle with rational side length14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153772&oldid=153771 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+1) 10/* Proof */
> 1741714801 264607 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hakerh400/Rectangle with rational side length14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153773&oldid=153772 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+95) 10
> 1741715082 561302 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hakerh400/Rectangle with rational side length14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153774&oldid=153773 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+0) 10
> 1741715207 678732 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hakerh400/Rectangle with rational side length14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153775&oldid=153774 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+2) 10
> 1741715304 619050 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153776&oldid=153736 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-28) 10
> 1741715380 331922 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153777&oldid=153776 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+52) 10
> 1741715392 12311 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153778&oldid=153777 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+3) 10
< 1741715841 357515 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
> 1741716655 847336 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153779&oldid=153778 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-1) 10
> 1741716811 917182 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153780&oldid=153779 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+203) 10
< 1741716902 865937 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Another way to avoid some of the non-determinism is to design the CPU to avoid the issues that cause this problem. In a message above, ais523 had mentioned conditions a), b), c); conditions a) and b) can already easily be avoided but c) (obscure and not-widely-used CPU instructions) could be avoided by designing the CPU and instruction set.
< 1741716941 117769 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Perhaps a variant of RISC-V could be used, since I think implementations of RISC-V and compilers that target it are probably common enough in order to do this.
> 1741717009 369462 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153781&oldid=153780 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+236) 10
> 1741717224 534416 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153782&oldid=153781 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-6) 10
> 1741717271 568506 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153783&oldid=153782 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-7) 10
< 1741717340 537450 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Deterministic allocation is clearly what is necessary too, which is also mentioned. As b_jonas has mention there is also multiple grades of deterministic execution.
< 1741717416 333153 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :It is not necessary to forbid timeouts that are set by other programs that have permission to handle timing and to control the permission of that program, but otherwise timeouts cannot be set (although a program could ask someone else to do so, if it has a capability to send the message to the other one; the sender doesn't know that the receiver actually will do so, but conventions will specify what is expected).
< 1741720837 518370 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perhaps timeouts could be measured in terms of CPU instructions (or the equivalent) rather than time
< 1741721785 159566 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`olist 1320
< 1741721787 512743 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :olist : shachaf oerjan Sgeo boily nortti b_jonas Noisytoot
< 1741722763 368670 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :That could be another way, although I had also describe how capabilities can be used if you do want to measure time.
> 1741722963 181378 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Zopium14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153784&oldid=153661 5* 03Zopium 5* (+86) 10/* Quote */
< 1741723701 856441 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: you can do that, but then you can't use caches efficiently, so I think some more complicated system might be worth. I was thinking that you could have five special pointer registers (one of them the stack pointer) that each point to a one page long array, each come with a mask of 64 bits tracking which of the 64 cache lines starting from that you have already accessed since you modified that 
< 1741723707 861968 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :index register, and if you access a value through that index register in a cache line that you've already loaded then it's presumed to likely be in the L1 cache and so costs less nominal time. Or you could have something higher level where you can do array loops with multiple simd instructions cheaper.
< 1741723719 476682 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In any case you'd pre-calculate the nominal time cost in each block between jumps.
< 1741723781 211129 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or I guess you could have just the top of the stack fast plus four one-page long by-value vector registers that are faster to access.
< 1741723801 533809 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I dunno
< 1741723823 335296 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a hard question and I might not want to eliminate all the timing side channels
< 1741725574 275797 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: why would that prevent you using caches?
< 1741725634 654559 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if the processor used caches a lot that would simply just effectively make the timeout shorter, in order to maintain a deterministic moment-of-timing-out according to the program's execution
< 1741725662 929155 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the idea is to eliminate timing side channels not by making the time constant but by making the time unobservable)
< 1741725762 304144 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I'm thinking of code where most of the time is spent on instructions operating on caches, which is typical in some numeric computation. So if you're counting instructions to set timeouts then you'll grossly overestimate how slow the code is and time it out early. But then that's probably not the kind of code that you will want to run in the deterministic interpreter, especially if you give that 
< 1741725768 315072 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :interpreter access to some high-level builtin functions that are deterministic, like for compression/decompression or cryptographic primitives.
> 1741725872 638252 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfih14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153785&oldid=152788 5* 03Zopium 5* (+39) 10/* Implementation */
< 1741726039 415666 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I guess you should run as little as possible in the deterministic interpreter context, eg. you could have graphics rendering for the user that needn't be deterministic, and it can time out in which case the UI will lag, as long as the deterministic code can't observe that
< 1741726078 752119 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(or observe it but only at a high latency and low throughput so the information about lag can be synchronized between the nodes)
< 1741726148 168748 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: basically I'm playing a lot of Factorio, and it naturally makes me wonder what it takes to make a game that is both network multiplayer and can run untrusted mods
< 1741726262 706349 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, and real time
> 1741726625 44729 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153786&oldid=153679 5* 03Buckets 5* (+14) 10
> 1741726693 74044 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153787&oldid=153680 5* 03Buckets 5* (+13) 10
> 1741726715 55843 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Evinocu14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153788 5* 03Buckets 5* (+778) 10Created page with "Evinocu is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2022. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | A() || This is A function. |- | = || Sets the Function/variable to Something on the other Side. |- | [i] || Input. |- | [Letter other 
> 1741726731 585894 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfih14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153789&oldid=153785 5* 03Zopium 5* (-64) 10/* Implementation */
< 1741732929 206099 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :TeX uses floating point numbers which may be differenton different computers but does not allow their results to affect any decisions made for typesetting other than the positions of some things.
< 1741733035 946007 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1741735673 640253 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/List of users who are also on the TBG forums14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153790&oldid=153769 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+4) 10
> 1741737158 149080 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153791&oldid=153783 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+540) 10You can revert if I am not allowed to edit!
> 1741737657 260450 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Zopium14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153792&oldid=153633 5* 03Zopium 5* (+109) 10
> 1741737778 134023 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Zopium14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153793&oldid=153792 5* 03Zopium 5* (-10) 10
< 1741738077 504325 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1741740194 20338 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rotary/Proof of Turing completeness14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153794 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+7962) 10It's TC
> 1741740353 140211 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rotary14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153795&oldid=132241 5* 03Stkptr 5* (-9) 10TC
> 1741740595 397447 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rotary/Proof of Turing completeness14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153796&oldid=153794 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+5) 10Fix the circle starting points
> 1741740612 52036 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rotary/Proof of Turing completeness14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153797&oldid=153796 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+0) 10/* 0 command */
> 1741740649 571188 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rotary/Proof of Turing completeness14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153798&oldid=153797 5* 03Stkptr 5* (-9) 10
< 1741743252 311721 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas, zzo38, ais523: At some point this is re-invention of the context switch.
< 1741743271 300999 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...As usual, I'm sure y'all realize that, but nobody's said it yet.
< 1741743868 801354 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it's a more general situation for which cooperative context switching is one possible solution
< 1741743985 639349 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think every solution will look like a context switch. What you might be able to control via careful design is how much processor state needs to be invalidated/stashed.
> 1741744194 787504 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153799&oldid=153706 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+33) 10
> 1741744300 22388 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/My ideas14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153800 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+182) 10Created page with "Feel free to steal them!  # An esolang that is based on [[AsciiDots]] but has universal contruction. # An esolang where every program is a long word that is pronounceable in English."
< 1741750246 182407 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1741750483 464785 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Abstract syntax tree14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153801 5* 03Corbin 5* (+803) 10Part 1. As usual, I promise that I'm not using an LLM or plagiarizing WP.
> 1741752722 790754 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Abstract syntax tree14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153802&oldid=153801 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1661) 10Part 2. As usual, I've read these references.
< 1741752742 629592 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :BRB, need a convenience-store break.
> 1741753524 534524 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rotary/Proof of Turing completeness14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153803&oldid=153798 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+366) 10
> 1741753568 386271 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bitwise cyclic tag14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153804 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+32) 10Add typical cased redirect
> 1741755178 695649 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Simplified Circuit Diagram14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153805&oldid=75225 5* 03Stkptr 5* (-6) 10/* Interpreters/Compilers */ All read wires must be referred to explicitly
< 1741755898 910888 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1741756007 916421 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1741756917 119404 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
> 1741758055 45147 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Abstract syntax tree14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153806&oldid=153802 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1530) 10Part 3.
< 1741758415 362741 :craigo_!~craigo@2403:5815:da48:0:a1aa:83b:a8a5:bab4 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1741758613 84303 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
> 1741758744 538041 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Abstract syntax tree14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153807&oldid=153806 5* 03Corbin 5* (+411) 10/* Abstract binding trees */ Sketch capture-avoiding substitution. Obviously an actual implementation has to do some bookkeeping, but the point is that it's generic over Herbrand universes.
> 1741760664 396392 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cammy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153808&oldid=148977 5* 03Corbin 5* (+772) 10/* Syntax */ Explain user-defined templates in terms of abstract bindings.
> 1741761935 150071 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NOR machine14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153809 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+782) 10I'm sure this is Turing-Complete. Need an interpreter.
> 1741762056 340660 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lisp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153810&oldid=91450 5* 03Corbin 5* (+24) 10/* Homoiconicity */ Fix one bad paragraph. Also bluelink.
> 1741762373 531063 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NOR machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153811&oldid=153809 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+189) 10
> 1741762558 381688 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Elevated Parser14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153812&oldid=73316 5* 03Corbin 5* (+27) 10Bluelinks and grammar.
< 1741763533 475461 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1741763580 27467 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1741763613 910733 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1741764543 535597 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Informal14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153813 5* 03Win7HE 5* (+101) 10Created page with "WHEN WILL IT BE DONE?!--~~~~"
> 1741764792 841286 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadshark14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153814&oldid=148262 5* 03Win7HE 5* (+5) 10/* Commands */
> 1741764857 90314 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadshark14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153815&oldid=153814 5* 03Win7HE 5* (-2) 10/* Commands */
> 1741764901 446821 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadshark14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153816&oldid=153815 5* 03Win7HE 5* (+37) 10/* Scratch */
> 1741764910 910285 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadshark14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153817&oldid=153816 5* 03Win7HE 5* (+1) 10/* Scratch */
> 1741765072 166568 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadshark14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153818&oldid=153817 5* 03Win7HE 5* (-59) 10/* Commands */
< 1741765339 379746 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1741767401 5775 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Computable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153819&oldid=153582 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1071) 10As long as we're generalizing the intro, we're going to generalize the formalism too.
< 1741767477 479096 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am *very* grumpy about what previously happened to [[computable]]. Like, it really wasn't okay to just use the standard definition of "recognizable by a Turing machine"? But I don't think stkptr is trying to be unclear or informal.
< 1741772356 189137 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :TIL that Rust doesn'
< 1741772366 723452 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :t have a unary plus operator
< 1741772838 854717 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :C++ and python have unary plus operators that are overloadable for user-defined objects, whereas perl has a unary plus operator that is *not* overloadable even though unary minus and binary plus or minus are overloadable.
< 1741772847 988679 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I prefer perl's version the best
< 1741773111 317816 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also the perl one works on any type, while the C++ and Python unary minuses only work on numbers, which is especially funny if you consider that the Python binary plus operator concatenates tuples/lists/strings/byteses/etc but unary plus doesn't work on them
> 1741774221 93546 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Nataliexists 5*  10New user account
> 1741777226 282927 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NOR machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153820&oldid=153811 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-13) 10
> 1741778061 745114 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07^14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153821&oldid=140578 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+136) 10/* Interpreter */
> 1741779179 933620 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153822&oldid=153671 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+650) 10/* Check out my Esolang! */ new section
> 1741779294 159981 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153823&oldid=153717 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1012) 10
> 1741779426 226840 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153824&oldid=153791 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+187) 10
< 1741779611 647910 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1741780149 997934 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Heya
> 1741780734 680775 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153825&oldid=153822 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+134) 10/* Check out my Esolang! */
> 1741781141 487148 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153826&oldid=153824 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+16) 10
> 1741781154 286744 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153827&oldid=153826 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1) 10
> 1741781161 530524 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Albuquerque challenge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153828&oldid=153723 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+742) 10
> 1741781194 476512 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153829&oldid=153827 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+3) 10
> 1741781210 281625 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153830&oldid=153829 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-4) 10
> 1741781278 918993 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153831&oldid=153830 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+51) 10
< 1741782705 155758 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1741782716 747363 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thnk Perl's unary plus is primarily there to compensate for a misfeature
< 1741782769 387033 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a function call in Perl can be written either as «functionname arg, arg, arg» or «functionname(arg, arg, arg)»; this combination of syntaxes is ambiguous so Perl disambiguates by looking to see if there is an open parenthesis immediately after the function name
< 1741782825 291577 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in cases where you want to start the first argument of a function with a parenthesis, you therefore have to precede it with something, and Perl provides unary plus for that purpose (which is a no-op on any value)
< 1741782877 786769 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thus, instead of writing «print (2+3), 4», you write «print +(2+3), 4» (or you could alternatively write «print((2 + 3), 4)», which is what you'd do in most languages, but I find that a bit less readable
< 1741782880 348234 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :)
< 1741782955 346461 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if Perl had only one function call syntax, all this wouldn't matter – most languages choose the syntax where the arguments are surrounded by parentheses, but the former is also unambiguous on its own (and ends up looking quite a bit like Lisp, but with extra commas)
< 1741783054 787230 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that is true
< 1741783964 649643 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess Haskell uses the Lisp-like syntax, but doesn't seem nearly as parenthesis-laden (probably due to having infix operators, possibly due to currying)
< 1741785070 809216 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, Haskell lets you define an infix operator synonym of identity at each of ten different precedence levels, and then you only need to write parenthesis at every eleventh depth or something
> 1741787063 278488 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153832&oldid=153831 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+98) 10I think we should be done with the commands now
> 1741787129 969351 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153833&oldid=153832 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+318) 10
> 1741787151 54451 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153834&oldid=153833 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-30) 10
> 1741787174 743436 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153835&oldid=153834 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10
> 1741787337 479517 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153836&oldid=153835 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+63) 10
> 1741787552 281337 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153837&oldid=153836 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+74) 10
> 1741787594 206884 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153838&oldid=153837 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+39) 10missing codes
> 1741788886 12997 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Albuquerque challenge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153839&oldid=153828 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+361) 10
> 1741789570 352366 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153840&oldid=153838 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-67) 10Removed the variable part because I want this to be easier to interpret
> 1741790188 728958 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153841&oldid=153840 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+62) 10Truth-machine
> 1741790616 222166 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153842&oldid=153841 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10
> 1741790644 213828 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153843&oldid=153842 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10fix
> 1741790674 818539 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153844&oldid=153843 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-6) 10
> 1741790693 905584 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153845&oldid=153844 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-4) 10
> 1741790758 777952 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153846&oldid=153845 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+6) 10
> 1741790901 308379 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153847&oldid=153766 5* 03H33T33 5* (-1) 10
> 1741791729 867212 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153848&oldid=153847 5* 03H33T33 5* (+10) 10
< 1741793734 215380 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@94.147.203.75 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] yayimhere
< 1741795044 910953 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-084-063-063-254.084.063.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 4.5.0
> 1741795448 731994 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hakerh400/Pair sum14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153849 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+2852) 10Created page with "The sequence begins with:   1, 7, 23, 19, 34, 31, 29, 34, 39, 40, 35, 38, 43, 51, 47, 50, 45, 52, 56, ...  === How it is formed ===  Let f be a function that takes a natural number and returns the number formed by the concatenation of the 
> 1741795467 354787 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hakerh40014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153850&oldid=153770 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+39) 10/* Number sequences */
> 1741795504 11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hakerh400/Pair sum14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153851&oldid=153849 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+133) 10
> 1741795543 771916 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hakerh400/Pair sum14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153852&oldid=153851 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+8) 10/* External resources */
> 1741795673 729164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hakerh400/Pair sum14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153853&oldid=153852 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+11) 10
> 1741795720 254614 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hakerh400/Pair sum14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153854&oldid=153853 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+43) 10
< 1741796364 856296 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-084-063-063-254.084.063.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN #esolangs Melvar :melvar
> 1741796732 213903 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07^14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153855&oldid=153821 5* 0347 5* (-136) 10as the old saying goes, Undo revision by {{name}}
< 1741799130 908381 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1741799202 955165 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.72.59.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1741799211 790414 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
> 1741801583 372384 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal0/Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153856&oldid=153823 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+179) 10
> 1741801608 676054 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5*  10moved [[02User:Hotcrystal0/Deep10]] to [[Deep]]: No longer WIP
> 1741801608 692508 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5*  10moved [[02User talk:Hotcrystal0/Deep10]] to [[Talk:Deep]]: No longer WIP
< 1741802694 216873 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@94.147.203.75 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
> 1741803463 883192 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NS!14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153861 5* 03Zopium 5* (+2448) 10Created page with "'''NS!''' (or '''N'''umber '''S'''tack!) is a stack based esoteric language made by [[User:Zopium]] that focuses on numbers. It is case-sensitive, so if you enter something like 3a*3+#, it wont print the 33rd ASCII character (!).  {| class="wikitabl
> 1741803673 677132 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-S)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153862&oldid=148028 5* 03Zopium 5* (+87) 10
< 1741803912 216711 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@94.147.203.75 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] yayimhere
> 1741803925 645451 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:XKCD Random Number14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153863&oldid=153487 5* 03Zopium 5* (+23) 10
> 1741804264 389203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Zopium14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153864&oldid=153793 5* 03Zopium 5* (+56) 10
> 1741804369 432437 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NS!14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153865&oldid=153861 5* 03Zopium 5* (+0) 10
< 1741805892 32606 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@94.147.203.75 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1741807970 776364 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NS!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153866&oldid=153865 5* 03Zopium 5* (+28) 10
> 1741808095 536290 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153867&oldid=153746 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+6) 10
> 1741808160 673577 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NS!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153868&oldid=153866 5* 03Zopium 5* (+29) 10
> 1741808207 395488 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Fontmess14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153869 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+223) 10Created page with "prrrriiidddeeeeee cooolllooorrrssss!!! 
 please add colors of the transgender flag because wynaut ~~~~"
> 1741808309 527835 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Fontmess14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153870&oldid=153869 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+64) 10
> 1741808870 916715 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NS!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153871&oldid=153868 5* 03Zopium 5* (+116) 10
> 1741809362 739765 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FOSMOL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153872&oldid=152291 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+0) 10/* Example macros */ fixes
> 1741809602 258884 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07WYSIWISC14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153873 5* 03Alikberoff 5* (+9257) 10Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=WYSIWISC |paradigms=imperative |author=[[User:Alikberov]] |year=[[:Category:2019|2019]] |typesys= |memsys=flat |dimensions=classic |class=[[:Category:Turing complete|Turing complete]] (WYSIWISC) |refimpl=[[Koyaanisqatsi]] |majorimpl= |dialec
< 1741809890 919864 :ajal!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1741809891 215183 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1741810235 719475 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Alikberov14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153874&oldid=103792 5* 03Alikberoff 5* (+75) 10
> 1741810348 138171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Zopium14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153875&oldid=153784 5* 0347 5* (+49) 10
> 1741810373 101085 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Koyaanisqatsi14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153876&oldid=103802 5* 03Alikberoff 5* (+15) 10
> 1741810437 721886 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Koyaanisqatsi14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153877&oldid=153876 5* 03Alikberoff 5* (+4) 10
> 1741810601 690786 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Zopium14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153878&oldid=153875 5* 03Zopium 5* (+86) 10
> 1741812107 960677 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ti!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153879&oldid=152270 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+116) 10/* Javascript (tryit.org version) */
> 1741813795 349445 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/My ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153880&oldid=153800 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+77) 10
> 1741814525 61904 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gato14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153881&oldid=152619 5* 03Thalassohora 5* (+16) 10/* Creators and Special Thanks */  See Discussion
> 1741814960 657274 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Gato14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153882 5* 03Thalassohora 5* (+556) 10Created page with "'''PLEASE NOTE''': This page will not be updated anymore due to a recent split between our communities. Please do not harass or discriminate any mentioned individuals in this article. This is mostly an archive of an esolang which could be a working one, but unfort
> 1741816117 213501 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153883&oldid=153786 5* 03Buckets 5* (+11) 10
> 1741816140 225493 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153884&oldid=153787 5* 03Buckets 5* (+10) 10
> 1741816153 15696 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07C.A.14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153885 5* 03Buckets 5* (+515) 10Created page with "C.A. (which Stands for Collatz's Nightmare) is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2020. {| class="wikitable" ! Commands !! Instructions  |- | , || /2. |- | . || *3 + 1. |- | / || Input/Output. |- | : || If equals not 1, go To line after number u
< 1741816743 909244 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1741816804 260846 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NS!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153886&oldid=153871 5* 03Zopium 5* (+605) 10/* Examples */
< 1741816894 487619 :craigo_!~craigo@2403:5815:da48:0:a1aa:83b:a8a5:bab4 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1741817083 352813 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dice Roll14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153887&oldid=123260 5* 03Buckets 5* (+51) 10
> 1741817421 506703 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153888&oldid=153883 5* 03Zopium 5* (+10) 10/* N */
> 1741817443 624592 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fontmess14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153889&oldid=153641 5* 03Buckets 5* (+475) 10
> 1741818189 362847 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fontmess14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153890&oldid=153889 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1) 10
> 1741818882 837049 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fontmess14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153891&oldid=153890 5* 03Buckets 5* (+208) 10
> 1741819112 730956 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Buckets 5*  10moved [[02C.A.10]] to [[CN]]: Misspelled title
> 1741819126 692978 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CN14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153894&oldid=153892 5* 03Buckets 5* (-2) 10
> 1741819151 524891 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153895&oldid=153884 5* 03Buckets 5* (-2) 10
> 1741819228 604962 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153896&oldid=153888 5* 03Buckets 5* (-2) 10
> 1741819534 792961 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Evinocu14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153897&oldid=153788 5* 03Buckets 5* (+287) 10
> 1741819574 203328 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Evinocu14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153898&oldid=153897 5* 03Buckets 5* (+2) 10
> 1741819948 353494 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153899 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+5248) 10Create page with current thoughts
> 1741820627 445035 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NS!14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153900&oldid=153886 5* 03Zopium 5* (+4) 10
> 1741820855 703506 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Foldy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153901&oldid=151676 5* 03Buckets 5* (+239) 10
> 1741820869 254106 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Foldy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153902&oldid=153901 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1) 10
> 1741821053 349255 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Foldy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153903&oldid=153902 5* 03Buckets 5* (+0) 10
> 1741821783 493057 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hats14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153904&oldid=153515 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1) 10
> 1741821875 665262 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hats14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153905&oldid=153904 5* 03Buckets 5* (+7) 10
> 1741822543 436588 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:XKCD Random Number14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153906&oldid=153863 5* 03Buckets 5* (+35957) 10
> 1741824529 614486 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Xt14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153907 5* 03Rdococ 5* (+117) 10Created page with "This is definitely not Turing-complete. ~~~~"
> 1741824672 294673 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Xt14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153908&oldid=153907 5* 03Rdococ 5* (+33) 10
< 1741826360 790641 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1741826949 23086 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/My ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153909&oldid=153880 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+534) 10
> 1741827030 706304 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/My ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153910&oldid=153909 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-565) 10ok pls stop creating "poem" series
< 1741827671 168345 :ajal!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1741827960 369750 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153911&oldid=153899 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+569) 10
< 1741831375 156694 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1741831746 211116 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, that was me, was trying to troubleshoot some networking issues by restarting the router-of-sorts.
< 1741831976 294486 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Got pretty weird symptoms this time, with IPv6 connections not working between home and my personal (DigitalOcean) VPS, even though (a) IPv6 works from both home *and* the VPS to other destinations (the esowiki server, or Google), and (b) IPv4 works between the home and the VPS.
< 1741831996 27269 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also traceroute from both ends shows that it does get a few hops along the way.
< 1741832050 160772 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it's possible it's some sort of routing/peering misconfiguration in the actual Internet part rather than an issue at either endpoint, it's just that I feel like usually those sorts of things get noticed and fixed.
< 1741832066 818554 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(And it's been like this for at least 6 hours now.)
< 1741832393 592612 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Actually, I can tell exactly how long, because the Prometheus blackbox HTTP probe (unlike pretty much everything else in the world) doesn't actually do fallback from v6 to v4 if v6 connectivity seems to be present; it's been a bit over 9.5 hours.
< 1741832451 383660 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a JOIN #esolangs fungot :fungot-0.1
< 1741832481 265112 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :^ and clearly IPv6 also works from home to whatever Libera server fungot happens to connect to.
< 1741832507 420129 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Or does it? There was no reply.)
< 1741832511 318117 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :^ping
< 1741832511 346845 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :That Pong alone cannot stop!
< 1741832539 691026 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, whatever.
< 1741832616 934381 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't even know whose support I should talk to, DigitalOcean or my ISP.
< 1741832819 24476 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: That's on my list of reasons why I intend to write my own Prometheus. Another reason is the amount of bandwidth required.
< 1741832919 727770 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`'
< 1741832921 792689 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :985)  I hate telecom abbreviations I hate telecom abbreviations good morning all I hate telecom abbreviations.
< 1741833001 371808 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :From home, (working) tracepath to the esowiki server goes [ISP network] -> some blanks -> LINX (London Internet Exchange) -> Iomart (wiki hosting sponsor), while (failing) tracepath to the DO VPS goes [ISP network] -> LONAP (London Network Access Point) -> !H (host unreachable), so I guess that looks like it's not likely to be my ISP's problem.
< 1741833187 254248 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :From the DO VPS, (working) tracepath to esowiki server goes [DO network] -> LINX -> Iomart, while (failing) tracepath to home goes [DO network] -> "no reply" forever.
< 1741833636 50631 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Weird, though. From LONAP's looking-glass instance, I can ping both home *and* the DO VPS via their v6 addresses.
< 1741833847 118552 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Meh. It doesn't look like something I'm really positioned to solve, so hopefully whoever's responsible will eventually notice and do something about it, or else I'll have to try to describe this to a support person, which I think might prove challenging.
< 1741835565 658788 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :IPv6 solves the problem of routing by removing routing. Now there's only the problem.
> 1741835987 665956 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PkmnQ14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153912&oldid=152586 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+31) 10
< 1741842286 68929 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1741842439 326623 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
> 1741842475 304878 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Eod14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153913&oldid=133056 5* 03Icecream17 5* (+14) 10/* stability */ combos are now deletable
> 1741843850 592307 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Eod14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153914&oldid=153913 5* 03Icecream17 5* (+1390) 10/* c-commands */ more commands
> 1741843933 358113 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ti!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153915&oldid=153879 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-1) 10
> 1741844001 877482 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Binary lambda calculus14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153916&oldid=139552 5* 03Squidmanescape 5* (+86) 10/* BLC Syntax */ I think this makes what 01 does more clear to people who have only a cursory knowledge of Lambda Calculus or de Bruijn indices... e.g. me right now. I hope I'm not wrong. If I am, I really hope someone fixes my explanation.
> 1741844318 391150 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Eod14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153917&oldid=153914 5* 03Icecream17 5* (+355) 10can modify its own code now
< 1741845273 914651 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1741845510 450728 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1741845816 305038 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1741845918 429117 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1741850010 456897 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1741850023 959366 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1741850107 287389 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1741852290 115603 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1741852676 655138 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :doesn't fall back to IPV4 => that's a good thing, that means it warned you about this IPV6 problem
< 1741854294 665408 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs lisbeths :lisbeths
< 1741859387 753512 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Actually, checking the documentation, it looks like that's now configurable (and should in fact default to true), as is the protocol it's supposed to use (defaults to v6). Doesn't seem to behave like that for me, but that might just be down to having an older version. I should probably update and then configure it as two non-fallback probes, a v4 and a v6 one, just so I'll stay fully informed.
< 1741862050 804594 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
> 1741864289 1372 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Numble14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153918 5* 03Cobl703 5* (+9244) 10Created page with "'''Numble''' is an esoteric programming language, made by [[User:Cobl703]], similar to [[Forte]]. It is Turing complete. =Commands= Each command in Numble consists of a single byte indicating which command it is, followed by its arguments. Integers are encoded using ZigZ
< 1741864878 472521 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1741868092 585253 :mich181189!sid268336@londonhackspace/mich181189 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1741868104 18426 :mich181189!sid268336@londonhackspace/mich181189 JOIN #esolangs mich181189 :Michael
< 1741868105 999746 :yuu!sid267332@id-267332.ilkley.irccloud.com QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1741868114 861185 :yuu!sid267332@id-267332.ilkley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs * :yuu
< 1741868905 976697 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
> 1741870981 731336 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Xkcd 306214]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153919 5* 03B jonas 5* (+565) 10Created page with "'''xkcd #3062''' is an esoteric joke language that almost completely eliminates off-by-one errors.  Any time an integer is stored or read, its value is adjusted upward or downward by a random amount between 40 and 50.  == Reference == * [https://xkcd.com/3062/ xkcd com
> 1741871077 868521 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153920&oldid=153049 5* 03B jonas 5* (+27) 10
> 1741871113 915018 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Off By One14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153921 5* 03B jonas 5* (+23) 10Redirected page to [[Xkcd 3062]]
> 1741871839 245139 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Xkcd 306214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153922&oldid=153919 5* 03B jonas 5* (+51) 10
> 1741872022 908295 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153923&oldid=153857 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+77) 10Categories
> 1741872057 836168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153924&oldid=153923 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+2) 10
< 1741872211 367871 :yewscion_!~yewscion@2601:547:1400:1ab0:b3d9:e178:7811:ae04 JOIN #esolangs * :Claire Rodriguez
< 1741872216 283746 :yewscion__!~yewscion@2601:547:1400:1ab0:b3d9:e178:7811:ae04 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1741872734 54504 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Xkcd 153714]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153925 5* 03B jonas 5* (+504) 10Created page with "'''xkcd #1537''' is an esoteric joke programming language that parodies dynamically typed languages like javascript or PHP.  It is described as great but has a few quirks regarding type.  We only know a few code examples with results.  This language was published by Ra
> 1741872798 677031 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Types14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153926 5* 03B jonas 5* (+23) 10Redirected page to [[Xkcd 1537]]
> 1741872864 867624 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153927&oldid=153920 5* 03B jonas 5* (+27) 10
> 1741873227 839138 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07X14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153928&oldid=138403 5* 03B jonas 5* (+32) 10remove from [[:Category:Languages]], add keywords
> 1741873290 866855 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153929&oldid=153896 5* 03B jonas 5* (-8) 10remove [[X]], it's on the joke language list where it belongs already
> 1741873336 871721 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Xkcd 230914]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153930 5* 03B jonas 5* (+15) 10Redirected page to [[X]]
< 1741874124 215959 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@94.147.203.75 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] yayimhere
< 1741879931 910135 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1741880362 708852 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153931&oldid=153848 5* 03H33T33 5* (+118) 10
< 1741881509 662622 :yayimhere!~yayimhere@94.147.203.75 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1741882850 490476 :craigo_!~craigo@2403:5815:da48:0:a1aa:83b:a8a5:bab4 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
> 1741883794 374928 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Game of Life14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153932 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+130) 10Created page with "I feel like this page is half a joke. ~~~~"
< 1741885459 478737 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1741885592 20983 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1741886179 308822 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153933&oldid=153911 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+294) 10
> 1741886375 875834 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Finite state automata14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153934 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+36) 10Redirect to the singular
> 1741886626 871995 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Constructible14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153935&oldid=149381 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+565) 10/* Computational class */
> 1741886669 648345 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Constructible14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153936&oldid=153935 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+37) 10/* Computational class */
> 1741886702 773123 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Constructible14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153937&oldid=153936 5* 03Stkptr 5* (-16) 10
> 1741894157 809005 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Xand14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153938&oldid=129372 5* 03BestCoder 5* (+232) 10
> 1741896049 252213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153939&oldid=153933 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+1016) 10
> 1741896111 266733 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153940&oldid=153939 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+104) 10/* Immediately Turing complete additions */
> 1741896321 962540 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153941&oldid=153940 5* 03Stkptr 5* (-3) 10/*  with +, -, * (at least FSM) */
> 1741896749 400710 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CN14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153942&oldid=153894 5* 03Buckets 5* (+62) 10
> 1741896990 358006 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153943&oldid=153929 5* 03Buckets 5* (+14) 10
> 1741897016 214866 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153944&oldid=153895 5* 03Buckets 5* (+13) 10
> 1741897038 578000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Aliquid14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153945 5* 03Buckets 5* (+4071) 10Created page with "Aliquid is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2022.  (After every Instruction, Rotate the IP by 90 Degrees Clockwise*.) {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | AA || Starting point, Pointing Upwards. |- | AB || This will Push
> 1741897105 727736 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Aliquid14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153946&oldid=153945 5* 03Buckets 5* (-40) 10
> 1741897312 107395 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153947&oldid=153941 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+58) 10/* Immediately Turing complete additions */
> 1741897419 982323 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153948&oldid=153947 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+26) 10/*  with +, -, * (at least FSM) */
< 1741899010 298974 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :G'Nite
< 1741899011 61774 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :*wave*
> 1741900890 631761 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Happy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153949&oldid=153434 5* 03Buckets 5* (+0) 10
< 1741901177 31189 :craigo_!~craigo@2403:5815:da48:0:a1aa:83b:a8a5:bab4 QUIT :Quit: Leaving
> 1741901697 121471 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153950&oldid=153948 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+4335) 10
> 1741903797 721443 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153951&oldid=153950 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+467) 10
> 1741903820 476535 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07((14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153952&oldid=152896 5* 03Buckets 5* (+39) 10
> 1741903965 950880 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153953&oldid=153951 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+11) 10
> 1741907731 46758 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Clockwise14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153954&oldid=153362 5* 03Stkptr 5* (-6) 10It can match parentheses
< 1741915326 580782 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1741918392 509030 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sb14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153955 5* 03C0ffee 5* (+728) 10Created page with "'''sb''' is a stack-based esoteric language.  ==Commands== {| class="wikitable" |- ! Command !! Description |- | + || pop a, pop b, push b+a |- | - || pop a, pop b, push b-a |- | * || pop a, pop b, push b*a |- | / || pop a, pop b, push b/a |- | _ || pop a, push -a |- | % || po
< 1741928690 21506 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
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< 1741936203 618877 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1741936353 963470 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1741936407 6590 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1741936439 554878 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1741939158 412719 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
> 1741942031 463827 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153956&oldid=153953 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+130) 10/* With pow */
< 1741945214 953203 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Another graph theory question. I get a DAG as input, and some arcs are marked as red. The task is to decide if there's a directed loop with at least one red arc in it. This would be easy to solve in quadratic time: for each red arc, do a traversal from the end of red arc to see if there's a path to the start of the same red edge. Can you do it in quasi-linear time? Or give a heuristic why that is 
< 1741945220 956366 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably impossible? The DAG is represented sparse, with a list of arcs, rather than a dense matrix.
< 1741945255 706708 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This isn't something I need in practice right now, because I want to do it for small DAGs with very few red edges, I'm just curious.
> 1741945375 498020 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153957 5* 03Ais523 5* (+832) 10Blindfolded Arithmetic with arbitrarily many variables and without division is probably equivalent to Imprecision
< 1741945394 942930 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, I'm stupid
< 1741945422 619742 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for two reasons
< 1741945438 205622 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :firstly, I wrote DAG where I was thinking of any digraph,
< 1741945485 747716 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :second because it's obviously possible, you just have to use the well-known quasi-linear time traversal algorithm to find the strongly connected components of the digraph and then check if any red edge has its endpoints in the same strong components
< 1741945499 152184 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so question cancelled
< 1741945636 815368 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :good try though
< 1741945740 150879 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean my previous try for a graph theory question turned out to be not so trivial
< 1741949076 468474 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1741949091 153138 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I was going to tell you how to solve that graph problem but you found the same solution as me on your own
< 1741949112 514721 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(decompose into strongly connected components then check the red edges to see if their endpoints are in the same component)
< 1741949499 280408 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi *
> 1741950004 126412 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Xkcd 153714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153958&oldid=153925 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+90) 10
< 1741951121 957550 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1741951531 910351 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :maeve (she/her)
< 1741951715 189136 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1741952254 998185 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/My ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153959&oldid=153910 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+176) 10
< 1741953748 913395 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1741954160 32709 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :maeve (she/her)
> 1741966087 227834 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CJKGolfer14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153960 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+14957) 10Created page with "CJKGolfer is designed by PSTF, which is inspired from [[Sclipting]].  = Most basic syntax = == Execution == CJKGolfer has a stack, and infinity amount of variables.  Many of the instructions are based on stack.  == Data types == # Numbers(). Every real numbers 
> 1741966162 437478 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153961&oldid=153943 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+76) 10
< 1741967042 713311 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: So, yes, Tarjan's SCC algorithm will do it. But what if the number of red edges is relatively low and the graph is relatively big and well-connected? Then the algorithm might not be linear in the number of red edges, except as a bound.
< 1741967044 344190 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1741967115 168424 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :You could fix that by building each SCC from a single red edge. That only requires tracking as many connected components as red edges, at most. The algorithm can exit early once all such components are found.
< 1741967151 614836 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...Sorry, I shouldn't talk so rudely.
< 1741967293 432094 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1741968421 674660 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1741968513 913377 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
> 1741969306 957295 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Beefydie14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153962&oldid=140376 5* 03Win7HE 5* (+4) 10/* Other languages */
> 1741970330 957545 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153963&oldid=153867 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+3) 10
> 1741970803 738972 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153964&oldid=153956 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+4) 10/* With pow */
> 1741971471 776127 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153965&oldid=153964 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+797) 10/*  with +, -, *, / (at least FSM) */
< 1741971852 971594 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1741972027 787726 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
> 1741973460 180756 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153966&oldid=153965 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+203) 10/* Immediately Turing complete additions */
< 1741973832 256023 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`unidecode 𝝅
< 1741973834 716527 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​[U+1D745 MATHEMATICAL BOLD ITALIC SMALL PI]
> 1741973985 374113 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UClang*14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153967&oldid=115096 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+344) 10It's ambiguously PDA or FSM
< 1741974146 474388 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1741975025 948225 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1741975083 930538 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153968&oldid=153957 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+371) 10
> 1741975686 528889 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153969&oldid=153966 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+516) 10/*  with +, -, * (at least FSM) */ preliminary note on rational emulation
> 1741976151 992763 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153970&oldid=153969 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+416) 10/* Equivalence to  with / */
> 1741976374 626354 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Blindfolded Arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153971&oldid=149423 5* 03Ais523 5* (+37) 10/* See also */ [[General blindfolded arithmetic]]
> 1741976416 734106 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153972&oldid=153970 5* 03Ais523 5* (+0) 10formatting of lede (the bolded words should be the topic that the article is about)
> 1741977077 967105 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153973&oldid=153972 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+541) 10Languages
> 1741978044 767863 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153974&oldid=153973 5* 03Ais523 5* (+17) 10/* Example languages */ Blindfolded Arithmetic has truncated division, but that wasn't mentioned, presumably by mistake
> 1741978823 111504 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PLEASE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153975&oldid=127092 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+732) 10FSA
> 1741979215 644243 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Skound14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153976&oldid=62936 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+392) 10PDA
> 1741979868 550041 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PhD14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153977&oldid=81301 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+19) 10
> 1741982644 495612 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CN14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153978&oldid=153942 5* 03Buckets 5* (+302) 10
> 1741982869 800496 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Oracle machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153979&oldid=153629 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+185) 10
> 1741982969 111190 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153980&oldid=153961 5* 03Buckets 5* (+12) 10
> 1741982997 566374 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153981&oldid=153944 5* 03Buckets 5* (+11) 10
> 1741983012 824329 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Truck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=153982 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1114) 10Created page with "Truck is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2024.  After all Commands, The Index rotates Upwards or downwards By the digits of e (Excluding '2.'),   Upwards if the digit's Decimal place is even, else Downwards for Odd digit decimal place It st
> 1741984463 462705 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153983&oldid=153825 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+151) 10/* Discord */ new section
> 1741984982 720386 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153984&oldid=153974 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+109) 10/* Example languages */
> 1741986919 718767 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game of Life14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153985&oldid=146673 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1137) 10Trying out something new, part one.
> 1741988117 811309 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153986&oldid=153662 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+186) 10/* Statements */
> 1741988481 507171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153987&oldid=153984 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+805) 10/*  with +, -, * (at least FSM) */
> 1741988502 384546 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153988&oldid=153987 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+2) 10
> 1741988693 354512 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153989&oldid=153988 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+3) 10/* With pow */
> 1741988886 875079 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game of Life14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153990&oldid=153985 5* 03Corbin 5* (+100) 10Trying out something new, part two.
> 1741989672 502015 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153991&oldid=153986 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+0) 10/* Statements */
> 1741990041 786098 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Autism14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153992&oldid=149531 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+208) 10
< 1741991408 958175 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1741991801 353308 :tromp!~textual@2a02:a210:cba:8500:d904:ecda:6ce1:ab96 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1741991826 919193 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game of Life14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153993&oldid=153990 5* 03Corbin 5* (+2130) 10/* Complexity class */ Something new, part three. This is a vast improvement on the "oh it's universal" rhetoric, I feel.
< 1741991892 125042 :tromp!~textual@2a02:a210:cba:8500:2976:d855:98e3:1901 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1741991938 499730 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Game of Life14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153994&oldid=153932 5* 03Corbin 5* (+232) 10So it's now a complete joke, right~
< 1741992846 803304 :tromp!~textual@2a02:a210:cba:8500:2976:d855:98e3:1901 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1741993654 68645 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hold on. the first esolang I'd ever heard of is not Unlambda or Intercal or Piet or Chef or Brainfuck. it's Conway's Game of Life. 
> 1741993706 175131 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153995&oldid=153675 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-8) 10/* programming languages */ css sucks sometimes
< 1741993953 358312 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I think it took some time to be recognised as an esolang
< 1741993996 239530 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and might arguably be a compuational model instead because it didn't have a standard syntax, although I guess you can say "plane tiled with cells containing finitely many live cells" is a syntax in a sense
< 1741993998 717471 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :)
< 1741994022 369628 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :LMK if I got anything wrong. I tried to be well-sourced about this.
< 1741994116 279100 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm. I did write a game of life implementation at some point when I was young, but IIRC it didn't have a way to save or load state, only to edit interactively, so it doesn't really count as implementing a "standard syntax"
< 1741994425 716768 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though of course in the 80s you could have a cheap personal computers with a BASIC interpreter and interactive editor but no way to save the program on casette or tape, and in the 90s you could have the same with a programmable calculator
< 1741994451 236745 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and those BASICs still count as a programming language
> 1741994534 149698 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Helpeesl 5*  10New user account
> 1741994804 395495 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153996&oldid=153989 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+228) 10/* Core model */
> 1741994834 24761 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ASMM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153997&oldid=152954 5* 03Chillaxe 5* (+132) 10Introduced C support
< 1741995280 438195 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1741995853 761139 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Aliquid14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153998&oldid=153946 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1618) 10
> 1741995944 16079 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Aliquid14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=153999&oldid=153998 5* 03Buckets 5* (-67) 10
> 1741996111 939175 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154000&oldid=153996 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+134) 10
> 1741997404 66071 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154001&oldid=154000 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+351) 10/* Equivalence to  with / */
> 1741998364 924185 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154002&oldid=154001 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+0) 10/* Equivalence to  with / */
> 1741998396 826114 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154003&oldid=154002 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+0) 10/* Equivalence to  with / */
< 1742000383 341974 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1742000424 473217 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154004&oldid=154003 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+176) 10/* Equivalence to  with / */
> 1742000665 110426 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154005&oldid=154004 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+26) 10/*  with +, -, * (at least FSM) */
> 1742000725 997798 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154006&oldid=153719 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (+100) 10
> 1742000751 400433 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Marble maze14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154007 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (+3578) 10Created page with "== Info == Marble Maze is a multidimensional esolang made by Elijah Hunt(helpeesl) on March 14th 2025 and is inspired by marble mazes, hence the name. ==Commands== {| class="wikitable sortable" |+ Board commands |- ! Commands !! What they do |- | @ || When the prog
> 1742001829 222731 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Marble maze14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154008&oldid=154007 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (-1) 10/* Commands */
< 1742002170 967517 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.72.59.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :
> 1742005375 890723 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Marble maze14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154009&oldid=154008 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (-2) 10
> 1742005606 437234 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sb14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154010&oldid=153955 5* 03C0ffee 5* (+25) 10
> 1742005687 136248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sb14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154011&oldid=154010 5* 03C0ffee 5* (+30) 10
> 1742005747 958420 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sb14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154012&oldid=154011 5* 03C0ffee 5* (+34) 10
> 1742005805 803700 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Marble maze14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154013&oldid=154009 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (+130) 10
> 1742005826 351835 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Marble maze14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154014&oldid=154013 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (+2) 10
> 1742005906 283853 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sb14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154015&oldid=154012 5* 03C0ffee 5* (+90) 10
> 1742005932 938389 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Marble maze14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154016&oldid=154014 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (+5) 10
> 1742006144 583151 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Marble maze14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154017&oldid=154016 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (-88) 10
> 1742006210 394403 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sb14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154018&oldid=154015 5* 03C0ffee 5* (+155) 10
> 1742006764 966646 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Marble maze14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154019&oldid=154017 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (+148) 10
> 1742006983 230415 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sb14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154020&oldid=154018 5* 03C0ffee 5* (+14) 10
> 1742007851 224252 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Marble maze14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154021&oldid=154019 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (+0) 10/* Commands */
> 1742007873 302169 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Marble maze14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154022&oldid=154021 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (-6) 10/* Truth machine */
> 1742008170 981151 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154023&oldid=153980 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (+18) 10
< 1742008269 753747 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :100th Coin has uploaded another Mario 3 video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pK7hU-ovUso
> 1742008479 886691 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Marble maze14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154024&oldid=154022 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (+14) 10
> 1742008508 719799 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Marble maze14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154025&oldid=154024 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (+9) 10
> 1742008575 357902 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Marble maze14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154026&oldid=154025 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (+18) 10
> 1742008666 508712 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Marble maze14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154027&oldid=154026 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (+23) 10
< 1742009154 390849 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1742009172 908756 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
> 1742009343 162634 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Marble maze14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154028 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+364) 10Created page with "it's quite fun seeing more marble based languages! I'll def try this out later! ~~~~"
> 1742010298 775891 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Marble maze14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154029&oldid=154027 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (+70) 10
> 1742010613 717620 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Marble maze14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154030&oldid=154029 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (+92) 10/* Info */
> 1742010645 953138 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Marble maze14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154031&oldid=154030 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (+2) 10
> 1742010851 391790 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Marble maze14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154032&oldid=154031 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (+9) 10
> 1742010897 721083 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Marble maze14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154033&oldid=154032 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (+0) 10
> 1742010918 289674 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Users:helpeesl14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154034 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (+12) 10Created page with "Hi Im Eli"
> 1742010983 705002 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Marble maze14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154035&oldid=154033 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (-13) 10
> 1742010995 781303 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Helpeesl14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154036 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (+12) 10Created page with "Hi Im Eli"
> 1742011012 179037 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Marble maze14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154037&oldid=154035 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (+12) 10
> 1742011054 559968 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Marble maze14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154038&oldid=154037 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (+0) 10
> 1742011109 699612 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Helpeesl14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154039&oldid=154036 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (+23) 10
> 1742011446 964137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Helpeesl14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154040&oldid=154039 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (+215) 10
> 1742012974 957956 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Marble maze14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154041&oldid=154038 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (-2) 10
> 1742013154 235977 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Marble maze14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154042&oldid=154041 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (+4) 10
> 1742013263 614616 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Helpeesl14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154043&oldid=154040 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (+16) 10
> 1742013615 851542 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Marble maze14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154044&oldid=154042 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (+1) 10
> 1742013761 411463 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Marble maze14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154045&oldid=154044 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (-5) 10
> 1742013810 218854 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Marble maze14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154046&oldid=154045 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (+1) 10
> 1742014195 925046 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Marble maze14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154047&oldid=154046 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (+49) 10
> 1742014258 96814 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CJKGolfer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154048&oldid=153960 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+60) 10
> 1742014624 371052 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Marble maze14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154049&oldid=154047 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+0) 10/* Extra stuff */ That's not what the halting problem is
< 1742015120 429840 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1742015205 442975 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
> 1742016472 348010 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:4 bits, 8 bytes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154050&oldid=137309 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+924) 10
> 1742016491 470534 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Marble maze14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154051&oldid=154049 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (+204) 10
> 1742016750 846081 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Marble maze14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154052&oldid=154051 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (+33) 10
> 1742017380 152178 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[072 Trits, 1 Trybble14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154053&oldid=132850 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+21) 10
< 1742022790 487735 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1742022801 957508 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1742022872 630156 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
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< 1742031927 929914 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
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< 1742058700 584212 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Are there any languages that *don't* admit some sort of decomposition? I can't decide if this is a super-deep question or extremely stupid.
> 1742058803 509665 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154070&oldid=154068 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+348) 10/* Removal of - */
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< 1742061255 911699 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1742061267 683075 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I suspect the answer to that question may depend on how you define "decomposition"
< 1742061294 440763 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Allow me to dump a list of examples.
< 1742061349 295236 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In Prolog, a program is a pile of Horn clauses. In many flowchart languages, a program is a pile of basic blocks. In Scheme, a program is a tree.
< 1742061354 879386 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw, I was considering a similar (possibly identical?) problem a while ago, to create a language in which programs had to be written all at once and couldn't be built up from smaller pieces
< 1742061389 815576 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This kind of extremely simple-minded framing is really useful for partial evaluation. But even languages that aren't so simple still have nice decomposition sometimes.
< 1742061437 826204 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are existing languages based around hash reversal, e.g. any Bubblegum program that's able to access unbounded memory or do any control flow needs to have a specific SHA-256 hash
< 1742061439 33986 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was considering binding-time analysis in an arbitrary category, and was able to get the BTA for Brainfuck as an immediate consequence, because Brainfuck is almost entirely built from a monoid and the underlying storage is algebraically easy to describe.
< 1742061466 464763 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, are you thinking mostly syntactically with the decomposition?
< 1742061505 277722 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think no-control-flow-and-implicit-loop languages are hard to decompose in that sense, things like Blindfolded Arithmetic or Three Star Programmer – but it's fairly easy to compile into them from programs with more structure
< 1742061516 439738 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Abstract syntax, yes. Don't care about concrete syntax; we typically analyze e.g. C as a basic-block language.
< 1742061559 364705 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :TSP should admit a decent BTA. I'm still wrapping my head around Blindfolded Arithmetic and trying to figure out what kind of cryptanalytic tools are useful.
< 1742061609 606096 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, Blindfolded Arithmetic isn't really encrypted, the main challenge if you have few variables is juggling data storage and control flow
< 1742061660 456357 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Imprecision (which is related to Blindfolded Arithmetic) is much harder due to the way that control flow tends to corrupt the data – I think it's probably still TC but am not usre
< 1742061663 462617 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :For example, I think of the Chinese Remainder theorems as cryptanalytic. I didn't learn group theory until after I already learnt the basics of hash cracking.
< 1742061731 617841 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :TIL about Bubblegum. Quite funny. I'd be happy to break it, but it'll be a few decades; any feasible attack would be better spent slurping arbitrage out of e.g. the Bitcoin market, and I'd like to retire first.
< 1742061777 661126 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the SHA-256 requirement is basically just there because the language isn't "intended" to write arbitrary programs and the aim was to avoid triggering the TC codepath accidentally, whilst still making itechnically a valid language
< 1742061782 223514 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...Maybe this is the universe sending me a sign that I should get on that whole Bitcoin thing before somebody else finds it.
< 1742061816 456106 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :A Pear Tree does something similar but I intentionally used a hash that wasn't preimage-resistant for that one
< 1742061827 808752 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, really? If that's the case, then SHA-256 was *not* a good choice of hash function. Probably should have chosen something that's more symmetrically hard to assault, like RIPEMD-160.
< 1742061833 833074 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(because people were intended to be able to write arbitrary programs in it)
< 1742061879 336395 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if I had had the idea for Bubblegum rather than Dennis, I would probably have designed it differently
< 1742061885 73271 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :different language designers have different styles
< 1742061933 97889 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :No worries. When I'm pronoun-dropping, I'm usually intending the ambiguity. I prefer postmortem (or at least post-author-being-here) analysis to be blameless, because the goal isn't to shame but to do better in the future.
< 1742061997 889112 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, my main regret with A Pear Tree is that the size of the CRC doesn't scale with the size of the program, making extremely long programs hard to write due to the risk of false positives
< 1742062011 646038 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I didn't realise that was a (theoretical) problem until I'd been using it for a while
< 1742062079 974266 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(also, the interpreter isn't as optimised as I'd like, there's probably a linear-time algorithm for "identify the longest substring with a CRC-32 of 0" due to the way CRCs work, but the reference interpreter is quadratic)
< 1742062135 354230 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, going back to the original question, I think a language which is hard to decompose would also be hard to program in, or to prove TC
< 1742062161 279201 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for something like Feed the Chaos, it is very unclear how storage of arbitrarily large data works, if it works at all
< 1742062175 209199 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and yet you'd need to figure that out in order to be able to decompose programs in a meaningful way
< 1742062250 767235 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Feed the Chaos is basically a finite-state machine plus a PRNG whose state expands over time, allowing it to "store" arbitrary data, but with no obvious way to extract the data again because doing so would require distinguishing the pseudo-randomness from true randomness using just a finite state machine)
< 1742062527 348456 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1742062527 420854 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: one thing you can do in any Turing-complete language is to encrypt most of the code so it can only run if the input gives a specific key for the symmetric encryption, and then it's impossible to find how the code decomposes (or tell anything about what it does) unless you know that key
< 1742062543 691940 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
< 1742062606 57941 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: So, that's similar to what ais523 did with A Pear Tree and what Dennis did with Bubblegum. I don't think that that's a serious obstacle.
< 1742062617 593512 :tromp!~textual@2a02:a210:cba:8500:c991:1287:da21:7b47 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1742062654 537790 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe it's easiest to see with Bubblegum, where I could assemble a partial evaluator from two components: a partial evaluator for Python and a second-preimage oracle for SHA-256. (Which I should emphatically stress I do *not* have.)
< 1742062724 59177 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know about Feed the Chaos. And maybe that's a good place to draw a line, because it seems like anything we learn about Collatz-style chaos is going to clarify how FtC's programming model would work.
< 1742062809 561648 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am busy trying to work out what partial evaluation in, say, the I/D machine "conceputally" is
< 1742062823 521146 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it feels like it should be meaningful but I am having trouble defining it
< 1742062848 534953 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(likewise for Blindfolded Arithmetic or Three Star Programmer)
< 1742062931 524608 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, it involves a complete modelling of the RAM, because that's where an input parameter would be passed in.
< 1742062941 240976 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the problem is that programs in that sort of language generally rely heavily on invariants in order to keep the behaviour of code contained – the blocks of code are only designed to be meaningful under certain invariants that hold all program (except during startup) and are unlikely to happen by chance
< 1742063010 762737 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Three Star Programmer and the I/D machine both have somewhat difficult startups for the known programming techniques, generally they've been found by writing startup code and then working out how to left-cancel it
< 1742063011 702614 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :A partial evaluator for TSP is very simple; it's a function N* × N* → N* sending pairs of lists of nats to a list of nats. The question is how TSP models computable functions.
< 1742063028 61563 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(but the left-cancelling also depends on the invariants)
< 1742063068 995300 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: why are there two lists? program and RAM?
< 1742063119 664590 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Partial evaluation is always defined relative to an input parameter. They're both programs when we're talking about non-trivial stuff. In TSP's case, yeah, I guess it'd be passed via RAM.
> 1742063173 724933 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154071&oldid=154070 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+958) 10/* Equivalence to  with / */
< 1742063178 601926 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it isn't even immediately obvious to me how input works in 3SP
< 1742063200 297257 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's obvious to me that it *must* work, somehow, or else it can't do something a Turing machine can.
< 1742063220 485326 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it does, but you need an encoding
< 1742063239 110569 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the output encoding in the article is a bit weird, but generic enough that you can usually fit programs around it
< 1742063268 842067 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but an input encoding is harder because in some sense it's tied to the program's memory layout
< 1742063375 340877 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you could just use a sufficiently spaced-out stream of 0 and 1 in RAM (with the addresses forming an arithmetic progression), then a program could add to the cells before reading them in order to move the addresses somewhere that they could handle
< 1742063380 598786 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, I figured that the identity encoding is a decent-enough starting choice. And yeah, the program is allowed to non-uniformly depend on the encoding; what matters is that each encoding has its own associated proof of computability.
< 1742063396 614038 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although 0 and 2 might make it easier to write the startup code
< 1742063434 704544 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, now I am wondering whether there are any inherently locked-up RAM initialisation patterns in Three Star Programmer
< 1742063443 32910 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Since one encoding can be transformed into another, there should be an underlying category, so just compose to victory. We're not begging the existence of that composition, I think.
< 1742063450 94907 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i.e. if memory has a certain state, then certain cells will be unchangeable/unreadable
< 1742063492 302354 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(barring degenerate solutions like "initialise all RAM cells with 1, now cell 0 is unwriteable and unreadable")
< 1742063536 788212 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: FWIW I will credit you with achieving the goal in practice; I can't actually imagine sitting down and building any of these partial evaluators. I can't even imagine partial evaluation of BIIA?
< 1742063574 341298 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I guess my problem is that although the encodings can be transformed into each other given a sufficiently powerful language, 3SP can't do the transformation "from inside" – I suspect the language is insufficiently powerful to read arbitrarily initialised RAM
< 1742063671 80918 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so when I think about a partial evaluator, I'm mostly thinking about it from the language's own point of view
< 1742063746 621323 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think about Three Star Programmer in terms of a wimpmode in which you can use one, two or three stars – this is much easier to program in, and there's a type of partial evaluation that's much easier to achieve in the wimpmode (if you can assume a memory address is not changed indirectly while a fragment of code is running, and starts with a known value, you can constant-fold)
< 1742063804 171013 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Oh, okay, I think I confused TSP with something else. All TSP programs run forever, right? So what's an example of a Rice property in TSP?
< 1742063813 100804 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the primary difficulty is just that 3SP always has *exactly* three levels of indirection, if you want fewer you need to indirect through a RAM cell with a known value – but then constant folding isn't expressible in the language itself, you have to go to the wimpmode
< 1742063827 554387 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: whether a specific cell is ever changed
< 1742063881 192521 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ugh, okay. Then I was completely wrong with my guess about RAM. Input would have to be simulated by pre-composition.
< 1742063900 954328 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sorry for the red herring. I was thinking of some other RAM machine.
< 1742063908 273208 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, OK – this explains why I was confused
< 1742063981 300516 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: this sounds like the complaint that David Madore recently had that if you are writing in untyped lambda calculus (or, say, unlambda without c or d) and you pass your program a lambda calculus function then it can't examine that function without executing it and executing it might result in an endless loop that your program can't break. but the problem here is just the encoding, you should ask 
< 1742063987 417926 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for an encoded version of the function, and add a lambda expression interpreter to your program. similarly for 3SP, ask for a 3SP machine program and state encoded in a way that you can process with 3SP.
< 1742063999 250561 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :No worries. I am not a fan of never-halting machines. In addition to the category of encodings, I see what you're describing now; it's like how a Ferris wheel has a group action but only one egress.
< 1742064013 671803 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I dislike these because e.g. Wolfram likes to sneak in uncomputable bullshit at the exit.
< 1742064047 728745 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's kind of an unfair complaint, because you could just as well say that if you pass your turing machine program a second turing machine by adding its states with the starting state with a known name, then you can't write a turing machine program that examines its argument program 
< 1742064052 97102 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: this is a problem that's annoyed me for a very long time (i.e. ensuring that the "artificial halt condition" isn't contributing to computability at all)
< 1742064072 846348 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but if you just write an encoding of the turing machine program onto the tape then your program can easily examine it
< 1742064104 337400 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yes – one of the reasons that many of my languages don't have clear I/O is that they inherently require an encoding in order to work and yet the language doesn't naturally enforce a particular encoding
< 1742064125 20523 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: At the same time, e.g. analog computers often converge to a steady state, and that's what we want so that we can take a reading. Sometimes that's how nature computes for us.
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< 1742064193 313089 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Sure. That distinction is built into partial-evaluation lore; we say that the evaluator always operates on source code or abstract syntax. Folks will often bust out the lore that a TC language's programs "have access to their own source code", too.
< 1742064210 850688 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are some input schemes for implicit-loop languages that are fairly general, e.g. "you write two programs, X and Y; the interpreter runs X a number of times equal to the input, then runs Y in a loop until the program halts"
< 1742064231 768225 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But what "have access" means is that we use one of Gödel's diagonal lemmas to *bundle* the source code into an encoded package which can be treated as a first-order syntactic literal.
< 1742064232 690027 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's basically what I did for Tip
< 1742064295 417529 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: this is well-known among esoprogrammers but normally seen from a different point of view, often summarised as "any TC language has a quine" (modulo issues with output encoding)
< 1742064309 806039 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :don't take "complaint" seriously, I'm misrepresenting what David said a bit there
< 1742064319 359684 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's also how a DSP is set up, too. The "interpreter" takes a high-level plan X in a language like CSound, emits parameters for a "super-shader" or "effects pipeline" Y, and then runs Y on incoming samples indefinitely.
< 1742064331 456713 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's possible to define languages with defective output routines that leave them unable to *output* their own source even though they can *calculate* it
< 1742064372 857182 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and that leads to languages with no literal quines, even though they can do arbitrary calculations on their own source
< 1742064405 331481 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but generally that only happens in cases intentionally constructed as counterexampels
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< 1742064449 707554 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Yeah. Again, what Gödel actually gave is very specific: given that a language computes a surjection over some output type which encodes source code, if it's TC then there will be a program which encodes itself.
< 1742064473 331207 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And again that's just the Diagonal Lemma. So it really is just a problem of that final exit encoding.
< 1742064479 180022 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1742064498 796913 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, I do get concerned enough about people cheating with "artificial halt conditions" that I generally look for ways to simplify them
< 1742064546 156450 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that this is an even sharper answer to my original question. If a language is TC and has a Gödel encoding that it can emit, then there should be a partial evaluator; otherwise, there's many possible obstacles.
< 1742064569 217196 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. I think that Wolfram's 2,3 Turing machine can be made to halt by going off the left edge of a semi-infinite tape (unfortunately it still requires the nonrepeating and somewhat complex input encoding – and although I'm fairly sure I wasn't cheating with that, it is hard to precisely define the reason the encoding isn't cheating)
< 1742064585 538995 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :TC-ness ensures that we can do the bundling required to pass input parameters via precomposition.
< 1742064747 424640 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, I think the result can be expressed like this – say we have a TC language and an input encoding for it that can express multiple inputs – we can write an interpreter that takes a set of inputs some of which are taken from its input and some of which are hardcoded, plus a hardcoded program, and simulates that program on those inputs – and then because the original language is TC we can write that interpreter in that language
< 1742064757 536904 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and this is a (somewhat degenerately) partially evaluated program
< 1742064784 781672 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yep, that's all the ingredients of Futamura's first projection.
< 1742064854 724388 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that doesn't imply to me that the language is necessarily decomposable, although this is partly due to not having a formalised notion of what decomposition means
< 1742064886 630681 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, where did this start. Decomposition? I suspect that's mostly an artifact of making programming manageable for humans. It's worth noting that pretty much the first thing Alan Turing did with his inscrutable TM formalism (it's a bag of transitions that interact in wild ways) is make it structured so you can have composable parts.
< 1742064898 397316 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it's because the projection treats the program, in effect, as a black box – and the black box is still there (in encoded form) in the output, so nothing's actually been decomposed, just composed around
< 1742064920 528784 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Oh, I think I was starting with homoiconicity. Prolog and Lisp are both homoiconic; does that make them easier to partially evaluate?
< 1742064940 119243 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or maybe consider Malbolge? Hmm.
< 1742064940 470011 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: so recently I've been working with Rust procedural macros
< 1742064968 331751 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think, in this discussion, the answer is that it's easier to write a *syntactically trivial* self-applicable partial evaluator, yes. But writing a good partial evaluator still requires writing an interpreter and doing optimizations.
< 1742064974 629849 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is a bit of a mess to program in, you basically get a list of tokens that are contained within the macro call (with () [] {} matched for you) and have to output a list of tokens (again with those matched)
< 1742065006 736933 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Yeah, it's kind of like an expression tree, I guess? I've only used them; I haven't written any.
< 1742065007 970283 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I'm not sure of the extent to which that's related to homoiconicity
< 1742065041 897593 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: it's less structured than the language as a whole, because it's a token list rather than an AST (i.e. it's been lexed for you but you have to parse it yourself)
< 1742065062 973798 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I see. But there is a "how do we program" or, closely related, "how do we show TC-ness" angle to this.
< 1742065068 966487 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the requirement for matched brackets/braces/parens is probably just there to ensure that the end of the macro call can be uniquely determined
< 1742065093 891166 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in particular the contents of the macro call don't have to be valid Rust, you can make up your own language as long as it lexes the same way Rust does
< 1742065105 9820 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(same literal syntax and same comment syntax)
< 1742065159 777804 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have been trying to hand-write parsers for this and it is really frustrating, I would actually rather just have a list of bytes
< 1742065206 965090 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(mostly because you can't ergonomically do matches on the tokens, because you have to call methods on them to work out what sort of token they are and Rust's pattern-matching can't express that succinctly)
< 1742065227 664111 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's a simple class of parsers that I haven't really seen discussed. Parsing proceeds by string splitting on delimiter tokens. On-wiki, a good example is DIVSPL. In Rust macros, I've used egg's macro interface.
< 1742065288 492331 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've written those in the past, mostly for scraping output generated from a known program (i.e. the program outputted the output for human consumption and I'm trying to undo the pretty-printing to get at the underlying data in machine-readable form)
< 1742065327 500817 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But yeah, writing this still looks quite nasty: https://github.com/egraphs-good/egg/blob/main/src/macros.rs
< 1742065367 644924 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I've been researching what to add to Cammy, because I don't want to just slap on an Expr type and call it good. That wasn't fun in Monte.
< 1742065390 923764 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :rust macros are a sore spot
< 1742065425 832312 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Monte's homoiconic like Prolog's homoiconic: there's an API that lets you turn expressions into primitives and syntax for (quasi)quotation. But there's always going to be some sort of builtin or opaque expression that can't be examined this way, and we say an interpreter "bottoms out" and calls something native.
< 1742065453 617606 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the motivation behind Rust's system was basically to ensure that macros wouldn't break as new language features were added, which is surprisingly sensible
< 1742065488 664394 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the API is basically just there to be something stable that's technically usable, and they're relying on third-party crates to turn it into something that's actually reasonable in practice
< 1742065505 540986 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(but, I don't like using third-party crates so I've been trying to make it work on my own)
< 1742065509 622603 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( Leading to Rust's original syn )
< 1742065531 498744 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. I've used PyMacro for Python, and those macros break between Python 3 minor versions. PyMacro for RPython, which is frozen on Python 2.7's AST, is actually kind of awesome; we added do-notation, etc.
< 1742065866 220549 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So, my idea for Cammy was to *not* have an Expr type. Nor to add trees that are Cammy-shaped, since that's dependent on the number of primitives, which I want to reduce. Awkward future compatibility.
< 1742065930 700599 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Instead I'm thinking of doing like MetaOCaml and adding a two-tiered type theory. So there are arrows X → Y and also lifted arrows [X → Y] along with liftings of all of the builtins and primitives.
< 1742065954 927969 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : int-e: Oh, I think I was starting with homoiconicity. Prolog and Lisp are both homoiconic; does that make them easier to partially evaluate? ← my guess is that homoiconicity "shouldn't" be relevant because it is in theory an implementation detail
< 1742066022 346455 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This bites in general because we can't lower a lifted arrow without a proof, but in Cammy I can use some abstract nonsense and yoga to lift Cartesian-closedness from the inner curry [X,Y] to the lifted curry [X → Y].
< 1742066035 324454 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's more relevant in Prolog than in Lisp due to assert and clause; Lisp has eval, which is assert-like, but I don't think it has a commonly used clause
< 1742066050 361345 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION is looking at https://doc.rust-lang.org/proc_macro/enum.TokenTree.html and still doesn't like it ;-)

< 1742066077 800492 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think (read) is the key for Lisp. Like, the trick isn't a nice abstract syntax, but a nice reader for that abstract syntax which separates out everything into evaluated and lifted ("quoted") terms.
< 1742066152 888861 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess Tcl is also an interesting case
< 1742066202 908901 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Wikipedia thinks it's homoiconic, although if so, it's homoiconic in the "reverse" sense to Lisp – notionally it stores everything as strings, including loop bodies, and parses them only when they're just about to be used)
< 1742066211 890916 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :adding to ais523's point, you don't have to do partial evaluation at the source code level; you can pick an intermediate language that supports it better
< 1742066297 169059 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually I guess Underload is in the same boat as Tcl, except that it doesn't have string manipulation primitives so the only ways to operate on strings in Underload are eval ^ and output S
< 1742066308 83775 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and that in turn means that they probably aren't actually strings in a useful sense
< 1742066343 165334 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Execline is another fun example of everything-is-a-string.
< 1742066405 616049 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Actually we don't know if execline is TC! We merely know that it has quines.
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< 1742117790 769770 :moony0!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony NICK :moony
< 1742117800 429135 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1742117901 349104 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator JOIN #esolangs Bowserinator :No VPS :(
< 1742117911 394419 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid JOIN #esolangs iovoid :has effects and coeffects
< 1742118226 481240 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.73.126.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
> 1742122230 290197 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stillbrithiarngialpielroinuslislislislislisquattostamiswackilduasliesfris14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154099&oldid=153739 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-5) 10/* Greet me again!? */
< 1742123875 107081 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1742124824 735971 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Support asked for traceroute outputs (even though I had pretty much explained the salient points in it), and pointed at a really odd choice of a superuser.com question for instructions how to get one, but perhaps adding those is a prerequisite of getting the ticket sent to a more networking-related team.
< 1742125005 953403 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
> 1742126615 911793 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03OfficialWatchOS7 5*  10New user account
> 1742128445 388754 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154100&oldid=154080 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10Its switch engine, not Schlick
< 1742128539 67436 :tromp!~textual@2a02:a210:cba:8500:2c80:dbc6:3e9d:a12d JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1742131956 298710 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1742137664 656916 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[071 8 1 8 114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154101&oldid=154092 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (+44) 10
< 1742140432 473792 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1742143260 338237 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1742143277 303577 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1742143503 965070 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org JOIN #esolangs hooloovoo :Hooloovoo
> 1742143722 319964 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154102&oldid=151584 5* 03Corbin 5* (+213) 10/* Actor languages */ Found another one.
< 1742144249 347944 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1742144285 353819 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid JOIN #esolangs iovoid :has effects and coeffects
< 1742144634 363711 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1742144802 905269 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
< 1742145330 353793 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1742145347 313393 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1742146691 518683 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1742146918 274523 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1742146931 933392 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1742150097 622430 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154103&oldid=154083 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+1754) 10Add a summary table
> 1742150119 734379 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154104&oldid=154103 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+0) 10/* Summary */
< 1742152248 357933 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1742153403 8917 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :"There are several approaches to building a set to represent the real numbers. The one used in Section 1.2 of the textbook is Dedekind cuts. For us, Dedekind cuts are simply a way to get a concrete representation of the real numbers. In fact, once we have done that and used them to get some understanding of the real numbers, you should pretty much forget about them.
< 1742153403 77172 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :"
< 1742153436 362376 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Stumbling on some class notes by searching for dedekind cuts >.>
< 1742153497 658524 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Cube root of 2 seems like a popular example
< 1742153566 719770 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's also Cauchy sequences, which are often more obvious for programmers; e.g. numerical methods often converge using Cauchy-like sequences.
< 1742153575 459648 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://math.hws.edu/eck/math331/guide2020/02-dedekind-cuts.html
< 1742153610 855127 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :why not square root... oh because x |-> x^3 is strictly increasing and x |-> x^2 is not
> 1742154824 929665 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154105&oldid=154104 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+21) 10/* Immediately Turing complete additions */
< 1742156386 768854 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :The site has something about a field F that's larger than R, but I didn't really read it fully.
< 1742156416 858786 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://math.hws.edu/eck/math331/guide2020/04-axioms-for-R.html
< 1742156426 953899 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Note that a real number 
< 1742156427 42071 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs : can be considered to be the rational function 
< 1742156427 70642 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs : 
< 1742156427 70690 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs : where 
< 1742156427 70719 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs : and 
< 1742156427 470182 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :. So we can consider 
< 1742156429 521476 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs : to be a subset of 
< 1742156431 512612 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :. Since 
< 1742156433 577680 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1742156450 909384 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1742156461 571151 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :eep, sorry about spam
< 1742156468 994073 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. For example, C is "larger" than R in several senses; it's not bigger in terms of cardinality, but it's got an algebraic completion: every polynomial over integers has roots in C, but not necessarily in R.
< 1742156477 44949 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Er, where C is the complex plane.
< 1742156529 538711 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Does F have a googleable name?
< 1742156535 140024 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can have ordered fields of arbitrarily large cardinality
< 1742156639 966076 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :"rational functions" I guess?
< 1742156727 442773 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ok, so F contains functions that work as real numbers and functions that aren't correlated with a real number
< 1742156891 436334 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo: I didn't see what F was, exactly. You might like looking up "polynomial ring"; if you have polynomials, you can add and multiply them. Rational functions are a natural generalization to fields when we consider non-zero division.
< 1742156917 20121 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm. With that order, you can think of x as a +infinity.
< 1742156943 506363 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Note BTW that there's a construction called "field of fractions"; given a ring, we can just pretend that division works by cancelling multiplication. This construction sends the integers Z to the rationals Q, for example.
< 1742156944 220438 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So isomorphic to R(omega) where omega comes from the surreal numbers.
< 1742156974 980766 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Without the order it would just be written as R(x).
< 1742156993 550692 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And it also sends the polynomial ring over integers Z[x] to the rational polynomials Q[x], provoking my nightmares of returning to grade school.
< 1742157081 461097 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :No it sends Z[x] to Q(x) ~ Z(x).
< 1742157088 340751 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you get things like 1/x
< 1742157120 736226 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, nice catch. And the surreals are the "largest" such field from those linked axioms, right?
< 1742157165 503159 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Q(x) and Z(x) are the same because you can multiply all coefficients by a common denominator)
< 1742157236 880883 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm. While the surreals are a proper class (so not a field in the usual sense; Conway calls it a Field), I bet there's still room for adding ever more large ordinals to the generators.
< 1742157290 803996 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Conway's Field is useful. A serious problem with fields -- besides not being truly algebraic -- is that their category isn't connected. This means that we can't really embed one field into another without ignoring e.g. their characteristics.
< 1742157460 604112 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo: This isn't a problem for you because everything's currently "characteristic zero", meaning that 1 + 1 + 1 + … ≠ 0. As long as that's the case, sometimes one field will be a subfield of another, and that's nice! But it's not how fields work in general.
< 1742157504 573749 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Exercise for reader: (non-trivial) field homomorphisms are always injections; if one field maps into another, then it always does so as a subfield. Why?)
< 1742158474 310513 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Replies in my ticket have graduated from a plain "Cloud Support Engineer" to a "Senior Cloud Support Engineer", but the latter did not understand the problem either.
< 1742158486 441774 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm sad that this support experience is going almost exactly as I expected it to.
< 1742158739 447380 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The Cloud Support Engineer asked for an "MTR report" (a particular traceroute tool) despite it not showing anything I hadn't already described. The Senior Cloud Support Engineer has fixated on a meaningless 95% packet loss rate indicated on the last line of the traceroute, despite the fact that (a) the address isn't my VPS's, and (b) the "packet loss" is there just because the last reachable
< 1742158741 759967 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :router appears to only send an ICMP "address unreachable" response to a fraction of packets.
< 1742158759 400261 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :So they've live-migrated my VPS to another hypervisor, which predictably has changed nothing.
> 1742158784 149274 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154106&oldid=154073 5* 03Buckets 5* (+11) 10
> 1742158822 624039 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154107&oldid=154074 5* 03Buckets 5* (+10) 10
> 1742158842 440801 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Icea14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154108 5* 03Buckets 5* (+2188) 10Created page with "Icea is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2024.  {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | , , , , , , , ,  and . || Borders for Instructions. |- | #m || Set The inside border Identification m. |- | {n} || Activate that certain B
< 1742158845 505008 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs ::(
< 1742158937 368499 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I could pay $999/month (not a joke, that's the exact price) for the "premium" support tier and get access to a Slack channel where they could probably solve this in a matter of minutes (or, alternatively, confirm that the problem is on my ISP's side of the fence), but that would amount to 166.5 months worth of the actual service.
> 1742159190 892092 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Omit14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154109&oldid=153647 5* 03Buckets 5* (+9) 10
< 1742159372 413063 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: It's fun to imagine that the same senior engineer ordered ICMP disabled for security reasons, although it's likely a separate security engineer that made that unhelpful choice.
< 1742159439 790285 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Sorry for sounding like a textbook earlier. I'm reading https://arxiv.org/abs/math/0602053 so I can improve this painfully bad page: https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/algorithm
< 1742172715 521278 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1742173126 345678 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1742176618 308532 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :How to implement custom subtitle rendering with libmpv?
< 1742177125 934507 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :It look like "overlay-add" command can be used for adding a overlay, but then the timing will be needed.
< 1742179046 821377 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I like hyperreal numbers, and I guess surreal numbers include hyperreals? I still don't quite understand surreal numbers
< 1742179080 568450 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also like projectively extended reals (because I like diving by zero) but I guess that's in conflict with those. 
< 1742179096 115715 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :dividing by zero
< 1742181524 965932 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo: I can go pop open ONAG and try to give a good answer based on that, but I don't know how to relate surreals to hyperreals offhand.
< 1742181718 547845 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay, ONAG doesn't directly say, and the index doesn't have "hyperreal". But y'know how hyperreal numbers are kind of like a sequence of real numbers? (Blah blah, "ultrapower", etc.)
< 1742181780 818931 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Surreal numbers are closed under a similar sort of sequencing operation which includes transfinite sequences. So every hyperreal can be mapped to a surreal in this fashion.
< 1742182196 716296 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo: ONAG, Theorems 28 and 29, Conway shows that the surreals are "universally embedding" when considered as a totally-ordered field. This property means that the subfields of the surreals are closed under extension; there's no way to adjoin a new element to a surreal subfield in a way that can't be embedded (up to iso)
< 1742182541 211909 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, also Theorem 21, for which Conway gives a reference, leading to Hahn series. WP's page gives the surreals as an example. Conway says that "the structure of [the surreals] as a [field] can be obtained from its structure as an [additive group]".
< 1742183338 637935 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.73.126.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :
< 1742186463 440048 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Do you have information about the protocol used for the remote control and IR receiver for "Creative PC-DVD"? I might want to connect it to a Raspberry Pi computer.
< 1742187019 695513 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Can you win at Pokemon by selecting Trick Room and then winning before the next turn, in a single battle (not double)? (I can think of a few cases where that might help, but it might be rare enough that it never happens, and I am not entirely sure of all of the rules in all of these cases.)
< 1742187858 978447 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1742188040 778818 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
< 1742191505 761350 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1742195623 348882 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1742195637 477895 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1742195707 843375 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1742197767 370883 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154110&oldid=154105 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+449) 10I did some cursory reading
< 1742199510 847212 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1742199531 70053 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : Can you win at Pokemon by selecting Trick Room and then winning before the next turn, in a single battle (not double)? (I can think of a few cases where that might help, but it might be rare enough that it never happens, and I am not entirely sure of all of the rules in all of these cases.) ← the most obvious case is when the opponent uses a move that KOs their own Pokémon, e.g. Explosion or Memento
< 1742199595 850601 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a passive damage win is also possible, especially if the opponent's Pokémon is Shedinja
< 1742199677 668620 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in fact, you can win beat an entire team before move selection on the next turn if there are Spikes or Stealth Rock up and the opposing team consists entirely of Shedinjas (I don't think it's possible to set that situation up on turn 1 of a battle if you select Trick Room, but it might be possible on a subsequent turn)
> 1742201445 915271 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03JIT 5*  10New user account
> 1742201898 838991 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154111&oldid=154006 5* 03JIT 5* (+179) 10
> 1742202024 617245 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:JIT14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154112 5* 03JIT 5* (+50) 10Created page with "Hi, I'm JIT (which is an acronym of my full name!)"
< 1742203486 371175 :Artea!~Lufia@artea.pt QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1742203710 595268 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154113&oldid=154110 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+818) 10references
< 1742204007 24590 :Artea!~Lufia@artea.pt JOIN #esolangs Artea :Artea ElFo
> 1742209906 817149 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03 5*  10New user account
> 1742210162 159199 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154114&oldid=154111 5* 03 5* (+119) 10just added some stuff about me
> 1742213190 518826 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Amethyst14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154115 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+10510) 10Created page with "Amethyst is a programming language designed by PSTF. It is influenced by Ruby, C++, Lua, Python and JavaScript.  = Language Overview = Amethyst is a lightweight, high-level programming language that is primarily used to write cross-platform applications, data an
> 1742213246 644286 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154116&oldid=154106 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+15) 10
> 1742214916 79790 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154117&oldid=153963 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+37) 10
> 1742214927 961382 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Colon three14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154118 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+23) 10Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=:3}}"
> 1742215068 288800 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Colon three14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154119&oldid=154118 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+56) 10
> 1742215079 768282 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Colon three14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154120&oldid=154119 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+10) 10
> 1742215132 698454 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Colon three14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154121&oldid=154120 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+60) 10
> 1742215494 440698 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PoeticChicken14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154122&oldid=153330 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+31) 10
< 1742216039 447546 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :A (new) "Cloud Support Engineer" has escalated the ticket to the "Engineering team", which is... promising? Maybe.
> 1742217096 463188 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154123&oldid=153749 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-503) 10
> 1742217670 315861 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154124&oldid=154123 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+7) 10
> 1742218099 583432 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rinuk14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154125 5* 03JIT 5* (+920) 10Created page with "Rinuk is an esolang by [[User:JIT]], 2025  "''What if [[brainfuck]] but compact, but still readable?''" : -[[JIT]], 2025  So, Rinuk is just [[brainfuck]] but compact, but still readable  "Readable" means in this context, is just '''not an error unicode.'''  (Like  or ) {| clas
> 1742218180 673653 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154126&oldid=154116 5* 03JIT 5* (+12) 10
< 1742218444 370527 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
> 1742219135 765925 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Icea14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154127 5* 03JIT 5* (+263) 10Created page with "Is it pronounced Ikea, I see ah or Ice ah? --~~~~: JITJITJITJITJITJIT"
< 1742219387 846505 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1742219577 215056 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1742220165 50114 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :TIL that if you set up Firefox on Windows to ask where to save each download then a webpage can DOS Firefox by asking it to download lots of files and thus popping up lots of Windows save dialogs that are each modal so you can't do anything with Firefox until you close them
< 1742220654 439577 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1742221374 215851 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1742231006 471806 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1742231215 640783 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
> 1742232134 924882 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154128&oldid=154124 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+76) 10
> 1742232149 157164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154129&oldid=154128 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-11) 10
> 1742232156 828050 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154130&oldid=154129 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-4) 10
> 1742232187 449258 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154131&oldid=154130 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+4) 10
> 1742232275 345484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154132&oldid=154131 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-65) 10
> 1742235137 662077 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?Q?14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154133&oldid=135845 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+2) 10/* syntax */  add space to avoid confusion
< 1742235348 914265 :Trigon!~Trigon@2601:680:cd00:717f::2000 JOIN #esolangs * :https://codetriangle.me
< 1742237234 457630 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :One thing I thought it might affect is the order of being damaged by weather and status (I don't actually know if it does, but I would guess so).
< 1742237241 446596 :Hoolootwo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org JOIN #esolangs * :Hooloovoo
< 1742237254 990132 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1742237323 473250 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154134&oldid=154113 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+2182) 10/*  with +, -, *, / (at least FSM) */
< 1742237370 140224 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Possibly also, if you are confused and opponent only has moves that have enough recoil damage to knock out themself but not enough damage to defeat you, but the confusion damage is enough to knock yourself out, then perhaps the low priority of Trick Room is useful. (Even if the opponent's move can defeat you with a critical hit, the chance of hitting yourself in confusion is more than the chance of a critical hit.)
> 1742237466 725544 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154135&oldid=154134 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+15) 10/* A simpler infinity */ formatting
> 1742237663 76572 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hakerh400/Flexible dependencies in Haskell14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154136 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+2323) 10Created page with "It is well known that in Haskell there is no easy way to put functions that depend on each other into seperate files. The reason is because Haskell does not allow circular imports (like in Node.js) or header files (like in C). G
> 1742237684 570880 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hakerh40014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154137&oldid=153850 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+87) 10/* Articles */
> 1742241313 663354 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?Q?14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154138&oldid=154133 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+91) 10/* syntax */ formatting
> 1742241360 378818 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Semi-serious language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154139&oldid=154095 5* 03DanielDG 5* (+15) 10Added my language, Aardvark.
> 1742241757 253367 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154140&oldid=153995 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-42) 10/* my own esolangs */ updating now that [[iterate]] is tc
> 1742241771 300929 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154141&oldid=154126 5* 03Buckets 5* (+12) 10
> 1742241806 2033 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154142&oldid=154107 5* 03Buckets 5* (+11) 10
> 1742241816 743801 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Eans,14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154143 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1460) 10Created page with "Eans, is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2021.  {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | @ || Start point, will Randomly Choose a Direction. |- | $ || End point. |- | ^ || Point upwards. |- | v || Point Downwards. |- | < || P
> 1742242189 992391 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154144&oldid=152640 5* 03Buckets 5* (+118) 10
< 1742243875 962495 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-FAEF-B9FA-EF3-9AF3-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
< 1742244707 622796 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1742250285 874634 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
> 1742252879 558685 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07WaifuScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154145&oldid=151656 5* 03Juanp32 5* (+6) 10corrected prompt type
> 1742253157 525209 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07C()14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154146&oldid=109314 5* 03Rdococ 5* (-41) 10
< 1742253920 429620 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1742257401 146183 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1742257444 791198 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1742258688 894863 :Trigon!~Trigon@2601:680:cd00:717f::2000 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1742258932 437341 :Trigon!~Trigon@2601:680:cd00:717f::2000 JOIN #esolangs * :https://codetriangle.me
> 1742259733 496927 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154147&oldid=153983 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+945) 10/* I need help! */
> 1742260928 33162 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Semi-serious language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154148&oldid=154139 5* 03Ais523 5* (-16) 10/* N */ remove explanatory comment  these can be commented out if necessary (I thought this one was unnecessary), but shouldn't be visible on the page because it disrupts the flow of the page and draws undue attention to a specific language
< 1742263573 102041 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1742264209 26321 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
> 1742266814 689809 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154149&oldid=154147 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+270) 10/* HELP NEEDED */
< 1742267993 507912 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Selecting a move in Pokemon merely due to its priority and nothing else about it matters, is also what reminds me like, casting a spell in Magic: the Gathering for no other reason than it has split second (the effect doesn't matter), or choosing a card merely because it has madness even if you never intend to cast it.)
< 1742270661 323129 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sometimes a paper just begs for us to cover its topic. "In fact, we will not even write many formal Sammy programs. This is similar to the fact that no one actually ever formally writes the instructions for a Turing machine." https://arxiv.org/abs/1306.2675
> 1742271510 178333 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07REdACT14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154150&oldid=153107 5* 03FurCantCodeAnything 5* (-54) 10i fucking got a C its so jover
> 1742272047 980970 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154151 5* 03FurCantCodeAnything 5* (+230) 10reservation for 9786
< 1742274212 71137 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1742274408 655508 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
< 1742277861 290479 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I will sleep today, but I intend that I will read it tomorrow.
< 1742279130 681894 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1742282006 404196 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1742282030 293813 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1742282089 676016 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1742287188 688984 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:JIT14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154152&oldid=154112 5* 03JIT 5* (+100) 10
> 1742287687 520456 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rinuk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154153&oldid=154125 5* 03JIT 5* (+5) 10
< 1742295792 300831 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
> 1742298363 661353 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Uhidklol14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154154 5* 03Rico040 5* (+143) 10Created page with "Is there any implementaion of this language or is it in WIP? --~~~~"
> 1742301341 261110 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Funciton14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154155&oldid=153062 5* 03Timwi 5* (+2) 10/* External resources */ Update repo link
> 1742301451 199159 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Funciton14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154156&oldid=154155 5* 03Timwi 5* (-2) 10fix branch name
> 1742301966 972904 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Befunge14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154157&oldid=151290 5* 03Tomrs123 2 5* (+1) 10tiny fix
> 1742302175 624960 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07RandomText14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154158 5* 03None1 5* (+163) 10Created page with "'''RandomText''' is a joke, [[no-code esolang]] invented [[User:None1]], it prints random ASCII text by selecting a random integer within [31,127] and stops at 31."
< 1742303032 925317 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1742303279 218626 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1742303415 12040 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm doing a BIOS update, and the software shows "do not power down your system" on screen. I find this kind of ridiculous. Sure, that warning made sense in early 90s game consoles with tiny battery-backed memory on cartridges, but today everything just has double sized persistent flash memory with atomic updates anyway, so why show that warning?
> 1742303662 799246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07The last line of this page14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154159&oldid=150868 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+3) 10/* Potentially paradoxical programs */ fix sentence
> 1742304097 776849 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07The last line of this page14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154160&oldid=154159 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+23) 10/* Near-interpreters */
> 1742306342 923701 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ask14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154161 5* 03JIT 5* (+1117) 10Created page with "Ask is an esolang by [[User:JIT]], 2025  ''"What if you just asked for Everything?"'' : -[[User:JIT]],2025  {| class="wikitable" |+ Non-asked commands |- ! Commands !! what they do |- | Ask ' ' || Ask for that |- | YES || yes |- | NO || no |- | mov[]^ || move the unicode charac
> 1742306485 738355 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154162&oldid=154141 5* 03JIT 5* (+10) 10
> 1742307235 181332 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BraXYZZYuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154163 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1472) 10Created page with "BraXYZZYuck is designed by PSTF. It is extended [[brainfuck]], and can be written in Unicode.  The official pronounciation is /beksidzuk/.  = Syntax overview = There are sixteen commands, and cells are calculate with WORD(maxima is 65535). Each command is half
> 1742307263 618124 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BraXYZZYuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154164&oldid=154163 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1) 10Fixed
> 1742307325 492989 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154165&oldid=154162 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+18) 10
< 1742308454 180390 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1742310793 43501 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1742311985 488562 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PkmnQ14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154166&oldid=153751 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+204) 10/* UserEdited */ new section
< 1742317432 232987 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1742317613 878882 :mtm!~textual@47-202-75-129.fdr01.sprg.fl.ip.frontiernet.net JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
> 1742319672 276554 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sammy14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154167 5* 03Corbin 5* (+620) 10Stub for yet another category-theory language.
> 1742319929 274138 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154168&oldid=154165 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+17) 10
< 1742322373 950993 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :How to make registrations of ISO-IR that can be use with ISO 2022?
> 1742323692 311266 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154169&oldid=154168 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1) 10/* D */
< 1742323792 342742 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1742325076 818183 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfih14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154170&oldid=153789 5* 03Krolkrol 5* (+25) 10
< 1742325213 225980 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
> 1742325551 150670 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sammy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154171&oldid=154167 5* 03Corbin 5* (+3416) 10Document the kernel syntax.
< 1742325627 715489 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :b_jonas
> 1742326402 517285 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TOIYEN14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154172 5* 03Krolkrol 5* (+2850) 10Created page with " = Quick Overview = Are you tired of programming languages that coddle you with convenience? Do you find yourself overwhelmed by the oppressive abundance of instructions in C or Python? Who needs if statements, loops, orheaven forbidfunctions, when you can have the raw,
> 1742326535 438843 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sammy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154173&oldid=154171 5* 03Corbin 5* (+24) 10/* Syntax */ Coproduct gives not just the category but also the injecting functors.
> 1742326624 498951 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154174&oldid=154169 5* 03Krolkrol 5* (+13) 10
> 1742326863 629153 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sammy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154175&oldid=154173 5* 03Corbin 5* (+14) 10/* Syntax */ Op is also allowed on functors, doing the obvious thing.
< 1742327051 293168 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hm. Gonna have to think about this a bit. I can't figure out how to actually *perform* a composition in Sammy; given functors F : C → D and G : D → E, there should be some operation Comp so that I can form H = F;G : C → E.
< 1742327086 801951 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But there's probably some convoluted way to make a Kan extension that does it.
< 1742328068 717785 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, Hcomp is allowed to do it. But that doesn't leave me with a usable diagram...
< 1742328195 946239 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : I'm doing a BIOS update, and the software shows "do not power down your system" on screen. I find this kind of ridiculous. Sure, that warning made sense in early 90s game consoles with tiny battery-backed memory on cartridges, but today everything just has double sized persistent flash memory with atomic updates anyway, so why show that warning? ← I can imagine that a half-updated BIOS could be problematic – it wouldn't surprise me if the 
< 1742328197 318922 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :engineers weren't confident that every possible moment at which power might fail could be recoverable
< 1742328221 98838 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it also wouldn't surprise me if the recovery state from a failed BIOS update would be a factory reset, rather than rolling back to the previous BIOS
< 1742328242 407788 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(also, most modern systems use UEFI rather than BIOS)
< 1742328252 130957 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(but people have probably stuck to the old terminology)
< 1742329121 583063 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night!
> 1742329449 334139 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sammy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154176&oldid=154175 5* 03Corbin 5* (+276) 10This isn't right. I need lunch.
> 1742332813 895910 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154177&oldid=154174 5* 03Buckets 5* (+69) 10
> 1742332868 458144 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154178&oldid=154142 5* 03Buckets 5* (+68) 10
> 1742332879 209813 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Red14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154179 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1854) 10Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=}}  is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2024.  {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | 0 || Concat
< 1742333690 385204 :craigo_!~craigo@2403:5815:da48:0:a1aa:83b:a8a5:bab4 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1742333877 164672 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
> 1742336765 20600 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Non-Plushie-complete14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154180 5* 03Buckets 5* (+532) 10Created page with "Most Programming languages are [[Plushie-complete]], that means almost '''no''' Programming languages are Non-Plushie-complete.  ==Rules== # It Cannot be able to print the number 4. # It Cannot be able to print the number 31. # It Cannot be able to store 2 i
< 1742336939 29713 :tromp!~textual@2a02:a210:cba:8500:2c80:dbc6:3e9d:a12d QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
> 1742336953 861496 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Non-Plushie-complete14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154181&oldid=154180 5* 03Buckets 5* (+80) 10
> 1742336969 40408 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Non-Plushie-complete14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154182&oldid=154181 5* 03Buckets 5* (+4) 10
> 1742337019 401099 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Non-Plushie-complete14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154183&oldid=154182 5* 03Buckets 5* (+8) 10
> 1742337407 414312 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Non-Plushie-complete14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154184&oldid=154183 5* 03Buckets 5* (+43) 10
> 1742337562 453865 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Non-Plushie-complete14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154185&oldid=154184 5* 03Buckets 5* (+39) 10
> 1742337586 722905 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Plushie-complete14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154186&oldid=142707 5* 03Buckets 5* (+43) 10
> 1742337605 464525 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Plushie-complete14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154187&oldid=154186 5* 03Buckets 5* (+0) 10
> 1742337614 829766 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Anti-Plushie language14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154188&oldid=151889 5* 03Buckets 5* (+4) 10
< 1742338028 714378 :craigo_!~craigo@2403:5815:da48:0:a1aa:83b:a8a5:bab4 QUIT :Quit: Leaving
> 1742339268 555612 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Non-Plushie-complete14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154189&oldid=154185 5* 03Buckets 5* (+80) 10
> 1742339294 945160 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Non-Plushie-complete14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154190&oldid=154189 5* 03Buckets 5* (+6) 10
< 1742340549 519524 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: what counts as a BIOS or not a BIOS? this one is certainly a modern computer with UEFI booting
< 1742340608 925924 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, apparently only the old one before UEFI is called BIOS. that's a weird naming convention, but fine
< 1742340875 101718 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: so BIOS and UEFI are two competing standards for providing an abstraction layer for handling early boot
< 1742340885 153009 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :UEFI is more recent and more complicated
> 1742340902 536707 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Non-Plushie-complete14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154191&oldid=154190 5* 03Buckets 5* (+2) 10
< 1742340934 812774 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :bootloaders need some standardised way to talk to the hardware, otherwise you'd need a new bootloader every time a new motherboard came out – and BIOS was that for decades because there's a lot of friction in making new standards for something like that
< 1742340963 938395 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1742340970 440943 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even nowadays, many modern computers can be set to use BIOS rather than UEFI for early boot (but, most modern operating systems prefer UEFI, and I think recent Windows can't use BIOS)
> 1742341014 932573 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07RandomText14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154192&oldid=154158 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+380) 10
< 1742341019 690742 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: right, UEFI boot is a newer more complicated system that loads operating system boot loaders from a file system and provides complex hardware abstractions to them, whereas BIOS just loads one boot sector from a floppy disk or hard disk and lets that handle most other things and provides more basic hardware services
< 1742341065 205131 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the UEFI BIOSes may provide some compatibility to the old system for easier transition
< 1742341081 746753 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :apparently BIOS dates from 1975 and UEFI from 2006 – that's a long time to stay on one standard
< 1742341113 876154 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although UEFI is based on EFI, an earlier attempt to replace BIOS)
< 1742341115 117664 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, but there are some new parts of BIOS, in particular LBA access to larger hard disks up to I think 4 GB
< 1742341129 422677 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :EFI is from 1998, it seems
< 1742341164 674580 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and possibly support for booting from a CD-ROM or network
< 1742341239 261640 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :s/GB/TB/
< 1742341355 653706 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though I'd like to ask how this is tied into the new GPT partition table format replacing the traditional PC+LBA smaller partition table format? I understand the latter doesn't have an extension to represent more than 4 TB of the hard disk, which is why you want to use the former these days. but is there a relation to UEFI? does UEFI require the GPT format, or does the GPT format require UEFI?
< 1742341361 660834 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or neither?
< 1742341457 78347 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :UEFI implements GPT – BIOS doesn't implement GPT but it doesn't block it from being implemented in software
< 1742341516 608475 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and GPT leaves space to polyglot it with a valid BIOS bootloader, so if using BIOS + GPT, you can load the bootloader even though the BIOS can't read the disks, then have that load a software GPT implementation to actually do the disk reading
< 1742341523 620739 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I'm still just using BIOS as a generic name for the early boot part of the software on the PC that isn't stored on disks or network. but maybe I should be calling it KERNAL for even more tradition.
< 1742341575 105020 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: right, but can you load bootloader in UEFI format from a disk with only the old partition table and no GPT?
< 1742341594 607587 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :not that this matters in practice
< 1742341632 560690 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: apparently the spec says that UEFI implementations are supposed to support that, but in practice many of them don't
< 1742341656 451871 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though I am somewhat worried that since I don't understand how boot loading and boot loaders work these days, I might not be able to repair or install one if that's required after a hardware error
< 1742341662 367566 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and switch to BIOS instead if they see an old-format partition table)
< 1742341702 415318 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :checking to see if I can customize the bootloader is one of the things I check before buying a new laptop – I have been meaning for years to write some boot-time programs but never got around to it
< 1742341707 175513 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the old partition table implies the old boot method?
< 1742341731 705870 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :not in theory – in practice it is sometimes implemented like that
< 1742341736 122671 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it isn't supposed to be
< 1742341738 96136 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see
< 1742341788 75311 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because I think UEFI is supposed to be able to boot from cd-rom or network and you won't have GPT partition table on those. 
< 1742341822 723099 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, the way UEFI typically works in terms of the user interaction with the bootloader is that it detects all available bootloaders (they're stored at known paths on the filesystem) and uses NVRAM to know which one it should load by default; there's a key you can mash / hold down (depending on the system) as the computer is loading in order to put up a menu and let you choose any of them
< 1742341853 702331 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, that's F12 often
< 1742341869 582890 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then it loads the chosen bootloader, although bootloaders are allowed to chain-load each other, and some of them (such as GRUB) default to putting up their own menu of possible ways to boot
< 1742341930 787626 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :interestingly Linux the kernel is typically compiled to be a valid UEFI program so that you could bootload it directly without going through GRUB, although distros normally like to have a separate bootloader anyway
< 1742341934 728599 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yeah
< 1742341978 766921 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, there's optional cryptographic signing which (after pressure from Microsoft) almost every PC manufacturer turns on by default, although generally there is a way to turn it off, and usually there is a way to customize it
< 1742342001 401844 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait, the kernel is compiled to be an UEFI program? I knew it used to be a valid program for BIOS boot for floppy disk only (not hard disk) originally, but they later removed that functionality because you'd just use a small boot loader instead
< 1742342055 254628 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and most computers ship with Microsoft's public key as the key to verify that a bootloader can be loaded (several Linux distros have their own signature-verifying bootloader that is signed by Microsoft, in order to make it installable without changing the boot settings)
< 1742342075 585256 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, I have heard of that part
< 1742342097 776932 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is usually possible to change the keys, although most users don't, especially as it would be hard to ensure that OS updates were signed with a key that the system understood
< 1742342148 541634 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and when I buy a computer I am normally looking for one that makes changing the keys easy
< 1742342210 958898 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(incidentally, that sort of key change – or disabling signature verification – generally requires solving a CAPTCHA, and I haven't quite worked out what the threat model is there)
< 1742342245 64321 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :IIUC the old floppy disk direct BIOS boot method got deprecated because boot loaders can pass a full kernel configuration string which is very useful but hadn't existed in very old linuxes, whereas the old direct boot method didn't allow such a configuration string but only a few bytes of customization that you can edit directly into the kernel, including the device numbers of the boot device and of the 
< 1742342251 69915 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :console
< 1742342277 537407 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, being able to edit the kernel command line is a good use for a bootloader
> 1742342283 969639 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Network Headache14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154193&oldid=73597 5* 03Buckets 5* (+43) 10
< 1742342292 715677 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's probably some way to do that within UEFI but it's also probably non-obvious and not very user-friendly
< 1742342406 78531 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :like... boot into a helper that sets the command line instead of booting the kernel directly? scnr.
< 1742342447 294273 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the other use for the boot loader is or used to be to load an initrd to serve as (or to populate) an early file system from which the kernel can load modules or run programs before it is able to access the normal root file system
< 1742342464 344392 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know if the UEFI method can handle this
< 1742342472 259057 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's an "UEFI stub" anyway which could probably at least contain a hard-coded command line.
< 1742342479 790953 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I didn't realise it was the bootloader that did that rather than the kernel
< 1742342492 461809 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or even init, I guess
< 1742342505 372756 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the bootloader can definitely do that, but there might be some other method
< 1742342535 946833 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is a system call to replace Linux's idea of what the root filesystem is (system-wide, not chroot-like), it looks kind-of intended for initrd as it's hard to think of many other legitimate uses
< 1742342571 193642 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've seen that, but I don't understand how that's not just a special case of chroot
< 1742342611 205987 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what would a "system-wide" root filesystem even mean, as opposed to a process's
< 1742342628 927474 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, it lets you move the old root fileystem inside the new root filesystem
< 1742342634 487467 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :by moving the mount point
< 1742342637 856941 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think chroot can do taht
< 1742342676 10902 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that might be the actual difference. these days we have bind mounts to do that, but I think the pivot system call predates bind mounts
< 1742342912 314832 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also IIUC there's a fourth boot loading format that the kernel tried to support (besides BIOS floppy, the linux-specific one that linux-flavored boot loaders implement, and UEFI), namely "multiboot" which is a format used for some BSD kernels and is natively loaded by some BSD-flavored bootloaders (but also grub), and I think this wasn't really recommended because loading the linux-specific boot loaders 
< 1742342918 321841 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :works better, but partially worked
< 1742343013 53251 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/Documentation/admin-guide/efi-stub.rst#passing-kernel-parameters-from-the-efi-shell ...so the question is, do BIOSes support doing that for their builtin boot menu too?
< 1742343073 665049 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this makes sense; it's "just" a PE executable and those come with a command arguments ABI)
< 1742343420 231108 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been living in Budapest all my life, and this year I've learned two new things about the city that I should have known for many years. 
< 1742343694 172256 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I think most users couldn't figure out how to get to a UEFI shell
< 1742343709 687275 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in fact I don't actually know how it's done (although I suspect I might be able to figure it out if I needed to)
< 1742343793 261232 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :same
< 1742343931 833474 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In the case that I am working with currently, I'm installing the UEFI boot machines for work purposes, and they get Windows 11, so the secure boot stays, though it does seem from the BIOS setup menus that you could turn it off if you wanted to.
< 1742343941 978015 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I think you could also install a new key.)
< 1742344017 215348 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The machines came with an Ubuntu pre-installed, but that's probably just a placeholder OS for when they sell them without a Windows.
< 1742344786 321354 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1742345983 771733 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Aah, the OS installer can create a Boot#### UEFI variable which supports command line arguments through passing a blob on to the "application". So if the BIOS allows you to pick a boot order for existing entries, that's good enough.
< 1742346086 14909 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://uefi.org/specs/UEFI/2.10/03_Boot_Manager.html#load-options (boot variables contain a load option (or several? didn't try to figure that out.))
< 1742346175 766044 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm still puzzling through how to create a diagram with Sammy (https://arxiv.org/abs/1306.2675, p5-7). Does anybody see how to create a diagram from arrows? I might write up a script to generate all of the legal short programs and search for the correct construction that way.
< 1742346286 363479 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: pivot_root on Linux? That is for initrd, yes. Also for kexec, since the exec'd kernel may need to load a new /lib for its modules. There are legends of other uses, like hot-swapping disks to update a machine's root without a cold boot, but they all kind of boil down to some sort of warm-bootstrappish action.
< 1742347389 383467 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1742351682 429282 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1742352236 996169 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess pivot_root also prevents the double-chroot chroot escape – that would mean that you could allow chroot inside a pivot_root sandbox (which might actually be non-ridiculous because pivot_root can be namespaced nowadays)
> 1742354995 628316 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Ps4 is good 5*  10New user account
> 1742355475 136309 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154194&oldid=154114 5* 03Ps4 is good 5* (+199) 10/* Introductions */
> 1742355527 239752 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154195&oldid=154194 5* 03Ps4 is good 5* (-53) 10/* Introductions */
> 1742357251 673560 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TypoScript14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154196 5* 03Ps4 is good 5* (+855) 10Created page with " TypoScript is a small language made by Ps4 is good.  === Syntax === The syntax in TypoScript is similar to [[Befunge]] but different in the fact that you can't move the PC up left down and right. It reads as right normally, and has no spaces. You can see the tabl
> 1742358321 430058 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Universal Lambda14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154197&oldid=139553 5* 03C0ffee 5* (+0) 10fixed typo
< 1742359862 433214 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :TIL. I should look into whether there's an easy way to attenuate e.g. a Nix store for containers using that approach.
< 1742359899 872819 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(On NixOS there's an easy way to mount the *system's* Nix store, and that can be proven safe enough, but it's not POLA because the container could run binaries that are only incidentally installed, a kind of living-off-the-land attack.)
< 1742360724 950704 :mtm!~textual@47-202-75-129.fdr01.sprg.fl.ip.frontiernet.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
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> 1742362026 116931 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sammy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154198&oldid=154176 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1238) 10The core of Kolmogorov complexity for Sammy. The smorgasbord of inequalities will come later, after dinner.
< 1742362301 773937 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1742365992 285611 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154199&oldid=154151 5* 03FurCantCodeAnything 5* (+1387) 10concept for this
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> 1742366687 645236 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154202&oldid=154199 5* 03FurCantCodeAnything 5* (-123) 10
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> 1742373437 220508 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ask14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154203&oldid=154161 5* 03JIT 5* (-29) 10
> 1742373498 204739 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:JIT14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154204&oldid=154152 5* 03JIT 5* (+54) 10
> 1742375205 965492 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154205&oldid=154135 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+1108) 10/* A simpler infinity */
> 1742378567 907588 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154206&oldid=154205 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+53) 10/* A simpler infinity */
> 1742378760 461266 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154207&oldid=154206 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+132) 10/* Summary */
> 1742379016 731731 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154208&oldid=154207 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+475) 10/* Core model */
> 1742379161 605073 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154209&oldid=154208 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+379) 10/* Core model */
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< 1742384326 444707 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.73.126.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
> 1742384510 421659 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Non-Plushie-complete14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154210&oldid=154191 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+250) 10
< 1742384781 191451 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hail Erïs!   😇
< 1742384782 303003 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Celebrate Mojoday!
> 1742384919 985417 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Storm-complete14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154211 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+555) 10Created page with "Storm-complete is a concept designed by PSTF. It was designed after he completed "The Storm" in the game Dancing Line.  = What is Storm-complete? = To be Storm-complete,  # It must be able to output 0. # It must be able to store 48 or 0 in any type of memory
> 1742384988 26683 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154212&oldid=153593 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+46) 10
> 1742385941 238952 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Cinnamony14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154213&oldid=118123 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1) 10
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> 1742390728 517052 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154215&oldid=151722 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+226) 10
< 1742393784 198428 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1742394142 577018 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
> 1742394898 525544 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154216&oldid=154215 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+47) 10
> 1742394914 930794 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154217&oldid=154216 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-1) 10
> 1742394941 535229 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154218&oldid=154217 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-2) 10
> 1742395273 321333 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Colon three14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154219&oldid=154121 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+28) 10
> 1742396608 757347 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Colon three14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154220&oldid=154219 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+186) 10
> 1742396676 810416 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Colon three14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154221&oldid=154220 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+56) 10
< 1742396959 981542 :Everything!~Everythin@static.208.206.21.65.clients.your-server.de JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
< 1742403088 785556 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :APic: Oh, TIL, friend of five. May your day be unexpectedly god.
< 1742403098 138587 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*good, even. Thanks IRC.
> 1742403291 72538 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TEIJFOP14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154222 5* 03JIT 5* (+2034) 10Created page with "TEIJFOP or 'This esolang is just for one purpose' is an esolang by [[User:JIT]], 2025  This esolang is just for one purpose  {| class="wikitable" |+ This esolang is just for one purpose |- ! commands !! What they do |- | i || input (i) |- | o || output |- | b
> 1742403364 29425 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154223&oldid=154177 5* 03JIT 5* (+14) 10
> 1742403459 986863 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TEIJFOP14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154224&oldid=154222 5* 03JIT 5* (+2) 10
< 1742403498 208480 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yours too
< 1742403498 619745 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :😌
< 1742403893 101745 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1742404012 257965 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
> 1742404827 765719 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TEIJFOP14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154225&oldid=154224 5* 03JIT 5* (+113) 10
> 1742405277 541601 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hakerh400/Types of exceptions14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154226 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+3548) 10Created page with "__NOTOC__  In this article we discuss various types of exceptions and how they can be used in some practical situations.  === Hard exception ===  Hard exception is used to terminate the program immediately. It cannot be caught in any way. It
> 1742405299 341476 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hakerh40014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154227&oldid=154137 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+61) 10/* Articles */
> 1742405346 318431 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hakerh400/Types of exceptions14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154228&oldid=154226 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (-1) 10
< 1742407961 478996 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1742408231 510820 :molson_!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-7643-886B-E05B-CC83-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
< 1742408404 951193 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-FAEF-B9FA-EF3-9AF3-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1742411916 644502 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Storm-complete14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154229 5* 0347 5* (+47) 10Created page with "this is getting more worse~~~"
> 1742418422 984669 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154230&oldid=154223 5* 03Buckets 5* (+9) 10
> 1742418450 888982 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154231&oldid=154178 5* 03Buckets 5* (+8) 10
> 1742418460 323677 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CG14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154232 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1176) 10Created page with "CG is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2022. (All hidden starting directions are towards the right.) {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | *i || Multiply by i. |- | *-1 || Multiply by -1. |- | +1 || +1. |- | -i || -i. |- | -1 
> 1742418544 106467 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:AGG14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154233 5* 03Corbin 5* (+312) 10Hi! More details, please.
> 1742421131 961664 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Non-Plushie-complete14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154234&oldid=154210 5* 03Buckets 5* (+296) 10
> 1742421271 304014 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Non-Plushie-complete14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154235&oldid=154234 5* 03Buckets 5* (+79) 10
< 1742421580 170503 :tromp!~textual@2a02:a210:cba:8500:f085:be23:3f4e:4a7a QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1742421703 583681 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :These joke complexity classes really need some sort of categorization. They're showing up in non-joke categories like [[Category:Concepts]] or [[Category:Turing complete]] now.
< 1742421736 261924 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, I agree that they should use the joke categories instead.
< 1742421830 936860 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :We perhaps need [[Category:Joke complexity classes]]. But we don't even have [[Category:Complexity classes]] yet.
< 1742421937 343123 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1742422786 958998 :visilii!~visilii@85.94.26.83 JOIN #esolangs * :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1742422977 160221 :visilii_!~visilii@85.172.77.105 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
> 1742423246 448677 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CG14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154236&oldid=154232 5* 03Buckets 5* (+139) 10
< 1742423632 933390 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: "Joke Concepts" -- but will that lead to every category having a joke counterparts? Where does it stop? Will we allow Joke Joke Programming Languages?
< 1742423670 12154 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :s/Programming //
< 1742424014 822605 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: yes, and Joke people, Joke before 1993, Joke 2026, Joke implemented, Joke Turing complete, 
> 1742429068 334752 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Parrot14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154237&oldid=119816 5* 03B jonas 5* (+15) 10replace broken link to article by another copy
> 1742431509 51223 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Parrot14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154238&oldid=154237 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+25) 10dead links
> 1742431520 56994 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Parrot14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154239&oldid=154238 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-1) 10
< 1742434112 22056 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1742440239 545347 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Yb114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154240&oldid=110562 5* 03Yb1 5* (+101) 10/* hello world */ new section
> 1742444191 353262 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PAL14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154241 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+1368) 10Created page with "PAL is an esolang created by islptng. It is designed to have no flow control.  == Data types == There are 3 data types. * Number, which stores a fraction. * List, which stores a list of objects. * Lambda, which is a monadic lambda function == Synta
> 1742444397 744444 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PAL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154242&oldid=154241 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+74) 10
> 1742444556 680489 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PAL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154243&oldid=154242 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+96) 10
> 1742445162 83047 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PAL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154244&oldid=154243 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+277) 10
> 1742445568 411547 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154245&oldid=153799 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+39) 10
< 1742445730 462318 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1742445960 373298 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
> 1742446646 508715 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PAL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154246&oldid=154244 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+269) 10
< 1742447012 259542 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1742447222 166620 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
< 1742452488 677739 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1742454196 814908 :tromp!~textual@2a02:a210:cba:8500:f085:be23:3f4e:4a7a JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1742454658 33354 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1742454824 351432 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1742454909 946395 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1742457465 346853 :Trigon!~Trigon@2601:680:cd00:717f::2000 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1742457975 194983 :Trigon!~Trigon@c-24-11-80-95.hsd1.ut.comcast.net JOIN #esolangs * :https://codetriangle.me
> 1742458193 312976 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:PAL14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154247 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+2416) 10Created page with "I spend 2 days making this... [https://tio.run/##1Vlbb9s2FH62fsWpuqBW7CR2t@4i1Ck2oG9FNxR7M4yAkmiHqUy5EtU567q/np3Di@5OmiJtsZc6Is/l43cOeQ7ZKGdCrsv47c1N4Huev0gknwZ8nKti6odvfn/z5qU/VlLku9HI81kSbVkKeQY5j7alBJVJmKpCpJDwXJTveO7DAjiExgRIAT5PI5ZzJbRwgT8xv4oyH9aCTGrljkHr5rD
> 1742458657 392126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:PAL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154248&oldid=154247 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+11) 10
> 1742461124 307417 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:JIT14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154249&oldid=154204 5* 03JIT 5* (+50) 10
< 1742462691 200274 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
> 1742466396 904401 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry/Cellular Automaton related thingy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154250&oldid=153452 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+993) 10
> 1742466594 644822 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ascet14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154251 5* 03JIT 5* (+800) 10Created page with "Ascet is an esolang by [[User:JIT]], 2025  ''"Are all [[Square-complete]] esolangs truly turing complete?"'' : -[[User:JIT]], 2025 {| class="wikitable" |+ Hmmmmmmmm |- ! commands !! what they do |- | H || prints Hello, world! |- | i || ask for a 1 character input |- | () || Lo
> 1742466899 974016 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154252&oldid=154230 5* 03JIT 5* (+12) 10
> 1742467418 445832 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PAL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154253&oldid=154246 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+2462) 10
> 1742467433 969965 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:PAL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154254&oldid=154248 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-2398) 10Replaced content with "I spend 2 days making this..."
> 1742468832 624200 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Storm-complete14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154255&oldid=154229 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+62) 10
> 1742468863 213562 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:BF is Plushie-complete14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154256 5* 03JIT 5* (+398) 10Created page with "[[brainfuck|BF]] is [https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Cell-based/ Cell-based] but [[Plushie-complete#Rules|Plushie-complete's rules]] says to store it in a variable, not a cell! --~~~~JITJITJITJITJIT<
> 1742469093 473438 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Afefoj-Flak14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154257&oldid=153371 5* 03JIT 5* (+3) 10
> 1742470589 414971 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154258&oldid=154149 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+191) 10/* New esolang */ new section
> 1742471165 138329 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154259&oldid=154258 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+685) 10/* New esolang */
> 1742473099 259248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154260&oldid=154117 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+34) 10
> 1742473156 999352 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CGoL+14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154261 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+78) 10Created page with "CGoL+ is an esolang created by [[User:Hotcrustal0]] and [[User:I am islptng]]."
> 1742473166 425675 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CGoL+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154262&oldid=154261 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10
> 1742473218 567107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154263&oldid=154259 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+55) 10
> 1742473483 454424 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Colon three14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154264&oldid=154221 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-46) 10
< 1742474708 915582 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1742479398 679497 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Draft of AGPL14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154265 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+2722) 10Created page with "AGPL(A golfing programming language) is designed by PSTF.  = Overview = AGPL is mostly inspired by APL, is designed for golfing.  = Data types = # Numbers. Every valid real numbers are number type, even if in complex. 1i is not equ
> 1742479429 27098 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154266&oldid=153722 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+61) 10
> 1742482093 692990 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TOIYEN14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154267&oldid=154172 5* 03Krolkrol 5* (+2) 10
> 1742482175 176537 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AGG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154268&oldid=150114 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (-36) 10Remove uncertified claims
> 1742482464 996513 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ash14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154269 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+2209) 10Created page with "__NOTOC__ {{infobox proglang |name=Ash |paradigms=Imperative |author=[[User:Hakerh400]] |year=[[:Category:2025|2025]] |class=[[:Category:Turing complete|Turing complete]] |majorimpl=Implemented |files=.txt }}  '''Ash''' is an esolang invented by [[User:Hakerh
> 1742482490 876338 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154270&oldid=154252 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+10) 10+[[Ash]]
> 1742482511 268051 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hakerh40014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154271&oldid=154227 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+10) 10* [[Ash]]
> 1742482576 653063 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ash14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154272&oldid=154269 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+4) 10
< 1742487249 438992 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1742489303 283104 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:BF is Plushie-complete14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154273&oldid=154256 5* 03Corbin 5* (+154) 10See, this is what happens when we don't have joke categories.
< 1742490320 427961 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1742490376 488173 :mtm!~textual@47-202-75-129.fdr01.sprg.fl.ip.frontiernet.net JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1742492032 366942 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1742493083 687939 :mtm!~textual@47-202-75-129.fdr01.sprg.fl.ip.frontiernet.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1742495387 574802 :Everything!~Everythin@static.208.206.21.65.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1742498473 65208 :chiselfu1e!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
< 1742498544 102074 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
> 1742500902 472208 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets/Constants14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154274 5* 03Buckets 5* (+366) 10Created page with "This page is for the collections of All The Constants created by [[User:Buckets]].  The Nacto constant, made to be Uncomputable & normal:   0.12134153651783981127...  The Nimpmore constants:   0.12145147501026147504607821678092671052677217...   0.982964326
> 1742500955 202232 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154275&oldid=154231 5* 03Buckets 5* (+28) 10
< 1742502069 464912 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
> 1742502588 193594 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal0/CGoL+14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154276 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+662) 10Created page with "Will it be text-based, or running on a grid and use state 2-5 to perform I/O?
 i.e. Does it need a Golly script to implement it? --~~~~"
> 1742503198 772245 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PAL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154277&oldid=154253 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+41) 10/* 0 is True */
> 1742503349 426354 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154278&oldid=154270 5* 03Buckets 5* (+12) 10
> 1742503383 61952 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154279&oldid=154275 5* 03Buckets 5* (+11) 10
> 1742503391 620688 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SPoCE14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154280 5* 03Buckets 5* (+409) 10Created page with "SPoCE (or Smallest Plushie- o stands for nothing -complete Esolang) is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2025 to Create The Smallest [[Plushie-complete]] esolang. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Command !! Instruction |- | ) || Print a quine then +2
> 1742506371 326015 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07List of ideas14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154281&oldid=154200 5* 03Buckets 5* (+88) 10
< 1742506586 851237 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :b_jonas
> 1742506661 855443 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets/Constants14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154282&oldid=154274 5* 03Buckets 5* (+63) 10
< 1742508606 603223 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.73.126.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal
> 1742510006 305443 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal0/CGoL+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154283&oldid=154276 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+181) 10
> 1742513157 724874 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Funciton14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154284&oldid=154156 5* 03Timwi 5* (+57) 10: String suffixes (written for AoC 2024 3a: https://youtu.be/7bxCQCTLzC4)
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< 1742518720 506838 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :It seems to me that there are many benefits of X.509 authentication.
< 1742518994 259248 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Someone cannot steal your password since there isn't one; they can copy your certificate but cannot use it to impersonate you since a private key is required. You can include extra information in the certificate if wanted (like OpenID allows specifying your email address and other stuff).
< 1742519030 918135 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :You can allow self-signed certificates and/or allow using credentials from other services, and can do so even if you are unable to connect to that service.
< 1742519115 638330 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Additionally, I think DER is a better format than JSON in general.
< 1742519178 656024 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :X.509 authentication also is not limited to only HTTPS, although it can be used with HTTPS (although it seems to be very rarely used for client authentication, it is common for server authentication).
< 1742519591 372238 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The OpenID Simple Registration Extension allows to provide some information such as time zone and others. I have made up a X.509 extension for providing the time zone in a X.509 certificate, which could be used for a similar purpose (and I have done this once, although the service I was authenticating to did not actually care about anything other than the expiry date).)
< 1742520401 378939 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :The main problem I seem to have is securely specifying superseding certificates. I have some ideas about how it might be possible to make this though (as well as allowing to store the private key used for this purpose separately for improved security).
> 1742522086 227977 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07APL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154288&oldid=140158 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+241) 10
< 1742523672 68731 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1742525228 39518 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :It does not require a web browser, does not necessarily require an internet connection, etc.
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< 1742534665 194832 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had thought of making a variant of RISC-V (another instruction set also might be usable, but there are some benefits of RISC-V such as being free and having existing compilers that can target it) for use with an operating system design. There might be capabilities, which can be stored in registers and memory and are separate from numbers (I think Flex computer does something similar).
< 1742534721 499599 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :The kernel will be able to examine the contents of capabilities and create them, but user programs can only copy them and compare them for equality.
< 1742534778 326214 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :This means that a C program could store a capability in a uint64_t variable, although attempting to them perform arithmetic with that variable's value will be an error. (Some kinds of optimizations might affect this in some cases; I don't know. Do you know?)
< 1742534790 718557 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :You might want to privilege equality comparisons. In E, a user program is only allowed to join two capabilities; either the runtime proves that the two caps refer to the same underlying object, or the join is broken and can't be used.
< 1742534970 766373 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, although I had thought that the kernel might make a separate entry when the capabilities come from other sources, in order that they can be separately discarded (like dup and close in UNIX). Also, a program may want to compare equality of capabilities with numbers (especially zero) as well, since a program might use them to denote the lack of a capability.
< 1742535145 191016 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :To use an analogy, imagine a program that sends and receives references to SysV-style shared memory segments. How to compare two references for equality? We can't, because we can't be confident that the segments haven't been remapped.
< 1742535153 732581 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1742535215 678998 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But we could e.g. test a segment by writing a byte via one reference and then reading that same byte from another reference. This is the "scratchpad" approach to implementing caps that can be sealed.
< 1742535259 72664 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have used that approach in a PostScript program once, actually.
< 1742535313 958 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the "eq" operator in PostScript can test if two arrays, dictionaries, etc refer to the same underlying memory, but when using "eq" with strings it compares the contents of the strings instead)
< 1742535357 549901 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I understand your concern now that you explained it better, though.
< 1742535391 802700 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :However, perhaps I should also have explained better, because the copies that are considered equal are only copies made by the program itself, not any other references to the same object.
< 1742535454 550808 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. The precise sort of shared object is important. File descriptors are another UNIX capability object which can't be directly compared, and AFAIK there's *not* a way to add an equality protocol to them.
< 1742535643 799368 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, and in UNIX if you use dup to make a new number that refers to the same object, the new number is not equal to the existing number, but if you just copy the value directly without using system calls then the number will be equal, and it is the similar idea here. However, the difference here is the operating system and application programs need to know what data refers to capabilities and what doesn't.
< 1742535900 3917 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(due to how message passing works, and how receiving and sending capabilities works)
< 1742536691 757835 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had thought of other hardware features as well. The keyboard probably also would be different from PC keyboard too. Some of the ideas of Apple is good such as a separate Command and Control key, and a separate Return and Enter key. I also would avoid USB which has many problems, but I might have the "GeekPort" like BeBox has, as well as RS-232 and other ports.
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< 1742556164 895166 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
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 Ato selfer, y priil y sal dilktran prisyl y cron e di salet y selpril! 
 Rule 2 
  
 Rule 3(Not on display)"
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< 1742578702 209141 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1742578719 206514 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : Sure. The precise sort of shared object is important. File descriptors are another UNIX capability object which can't be directly compared, and AFAIK there's *not* a way to add an equality protocol to them. ← Linux has kcmp
< 1742578763 6437 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which can check two FDs (possibly in different processes) to see if they are duplicates of each other (e.g. due to dup or fork)
< 1742578838 915357 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's more than one reasonable equality-like operation you could perform on FDs, but that one seems reasonable
< 1742578864 977287 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(you can also use fstat to check whether two FDs refer to the same file)
< 1742578931 611646 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is not immediately obvious to me what equality of capabilities would mean – it might be useful to know what the equality comparison was being used for in order to work out the best way to do the comparison
< 1742579042 431583 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: TIL! That's quite cool.
< 1742579111 795223 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :E doesn't bother with equality at all; instead, they use H. Baker's extensional equality for objects. In the general case, where a cap might refer to a networked resource, equality is really equivalence of message-passing: two caps are equal when it doesn't matter which one is used to make the delivery.
< 1742579181 756363 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Accordingly, E.join(o1, o2) returns a reference that lets the holder send messages, and the holder promises that o1 and o2 have the same referent. If that promise breaks, then E literally converts the returned Promise to a Broken reference.
< 1742579228 362993 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The relevant Baker paper is https://plover.com/~mjd/misc/hbaker-archive/ObjectIdentity.html and the entrypoint to the E dig site is http://www.erights.org/elib/equality/index.html
< 1742579266 597283 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the use case for join doesn't seem obvious to me – if the return value of the join is non-broken, couldn't you just use one of the inputs directly?
< 1742579348 402781 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Usually o1 is a Near reference and o2 is Far; the idea is to assert that o2 has taken a round trip to some other object broker, and collapse its reference down to something that could be Near-ish.
< 1742579360 29329 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, so you're doing it for the assert
< 1742579389 422402 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess this is using a definition of "promise" other than the usual one?
< 1742579405 470808 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yep. Strong hint from the underlying runtime's table class, named "CycleBreaker", as well as: "Used to finitely and successfully walk possibly cyclic & unsettled structures."
< 1742579461 33030 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The idea is that, in E or Monte or etc., we can ask `x == y` on two object graphs which include networked resources and cycles, and get a meaningful answer *immediately*. If we need to ask more careful questions, there's E.sameEver/2, E.sameYet/2, etc.
< 1742579514 278064 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :E is where the usual definition of "promise" comes from, in the sense that a Promise is a reference to a not-yet-computed result and only interacts via sent messages.
< 1742579533 30077 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But more specifically it's the eponymous state in this Harel statechart: http://www.erights.org/elib/equality/images/ref-settling.gif
< 1742579647 758115 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The typical language is Near and spends most of its time in the green Near box. Value objects are that whole PassByConstruction optimization, for example. Java with NIO, or typical JS runtimes, also have Promises, both inheriting their designs heavily from E.
< 1742579693 25979 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(When I was younger I used to think that this was actually from Ruby's EventMachine or Python's Twisted, which did inspire Node. But JS's Promise feature is actually literally designed by folks like M. M. Miller and Crockford who worked on E!)
< 1742579832 250768 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, I see – the thing you get when you force the promise lets you send messages only if o1 == o2, but isn't itself o1 or o2
< 1742579835 120550 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Sorry if that's a lot. Today a promise is more-or-less a "deferred with error", a combination of the deferred monad and error monad, and that's what happens when the runtime doesn't have a nice vat-style structure for holding object graphs in isolation from one another. I guess you could say that today's runtimes are like one-vat setups.
< 1742579863 166631 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right! It's literally the join in the lattice of behaviors extending from o1 and o2.
< 1742579913 189788 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or, the partial order, I guess? I feel like it should be a lattice.
< 1742580158 512422 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Oh! Another thing to consider: E is explicitly like an extremely heavy macro system; E-on-Java is Java-flavored. Monte doesn't actually *have* M.join/2 as a primitive. From today's perspective, Monte would have something like Capn Proto RPC support, and join would be implemented as an RPC conversation.
< 1742580178 443925 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :What we actually provided is promise-aware equality primitives: https://github.com/monte-language/typhon/blob/6da286a954f039e524c282c10cff1d6a43664d0f/typhon/objects/equality.py#L478
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< 1742584464 551847 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :You have another reason for equality of capabilities, which might be meaningful in your use, but in my use that I was considering, two capabilities are equal iff the program made a copy of a register or memory containing it. (If a program wants a capability that refers to the same object but is unequal, it can send a message to itself containing that capability.)
< 1742585082 844608 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, like authenticated or encrypted pointers.
> 1742587255 875156 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Xkcd 153714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154305&oldid=153958 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+14) 10xkcd is normally stylized as lowercase
> 1742587291 431054 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Xkcd 306214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154306&oldid=153922 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+14) 10xkcd is normally stylized as lowercase or all caps
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< 1742594954 812788 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :It should be an error to copy or compare only a part of a capability (although the kernel may be allowed to do this), and the operating system may also designate certain memory areas as not being allowed to copy capabilities into that memory (e.g. video memory).
< 1742595018 748771 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Only the operating system is allowed to make capabilities or read their values, although user programs can copy them, compare if they are equal, and test whether or not they are capabilities (rather than numbers).
< 1742595046 384202 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The CPU does not know what "capabilities" means other than being values with the capability tag bit set; everything else about them is defined by the operating system.)
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< 1742617481 532498 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Do you know if there are issues with optimization with the C compiler if you are storing a capability in a uint64_t variable even though arithmetic is not allowed (and will result in a run time error)?
< 1742617660 704513 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like if the machine only has 32-bit words?
< 1742617770 723111 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? capability
< 1742617773 548867 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :capability? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1742617818 407047 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(what kind of capability? in what sense is "arithmetic not allowed"?)
< 1742617990 381576 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :A literal answer might be "no, C doesn't know what a capability is," but that's unfairly strict.
< 1742618158 14498 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :This may turn into an ABI question very quickly, which is outside of the scope for C, though not for C compilers.
< 1742619034 595070 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I described what I mean by "capability"; from the point of the view of the instruction set it is really just a 64-bit value that is tagged in such a way that arithmetic cannot be performed on it; it is called a "capability" due to the operating system. The machine will have 64-bit words since it will be compiled for a specific machine that has this feature.
< 1742619094 643402 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that doesn't explain in what way arithmetic even could break anything, as long as the right values are passed to system calls, or maybe stored in special memory locations
< 1742619098 76004 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean if the C compiler is not modified, but targets whatever instruction set it is a modification of (probably RISC-V) such that it otherwise remains compatible.
< 1742619213 389305 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Performing arithmetic on the values would cause the CPU to result in a trap, so the program will not continue executing (unless the operating system handles the trap and allows the program to continue). It also happens if the program converts it to an array of bytes and then tries to extract the individual bytes; that is also an error resulting in a trap.
< 1742619334 789618 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(In an actual program, typedef would probably be used, but I am asking about how the C compiler would handle such a situation if it is not modified to handle it.)
< 1742619772 163716 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Would it cause a problem with unaligned memmove?
< 1742619990 914179 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So those capabilities have hardware support now? But the compiler is somehow unaware? That sounds... unlikely, those two go together.
< 1742620080 325836 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :My intention is in case you are using an existing cross-compiler and cannot modify it for whatever reason. (There are reasons why you might want to modify the compiler other than this too, but sometimes you might want to or have to use existing compilers that you cannot easily modify (even if it is FOSS, it might take too long to modify and maintain it, or too long to compile the compiler).)
< 1742620084 267413 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, like, such capabilities would end up in special registers that are managed with special instructions that you'd use compiler intrinsics or inline assembly for; in the former case the compiler knows; in the latter case, the compiler will document how values are represented in registers passed into your assembly code
< 1742620127 833300 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel that this question is, simultaneously, way too specific, and too vague.
< 1742620340 871671 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :It seems to me that splitting them into individual bytes might be more of a problem than arithmetic would be. There are a few reasons I had for not using special registers, including that you can store them in ordinary memory (except areas that the operating system disallows for this use, such as video memory).
< 1742620455 740358 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think Flex computer does something similar, although it has its own instruction set. (From reading the documentation, it would seem to me that (although the documentation does not actually mention this, as far as I can tell), it is possible for the difference of two pointers to be zero even though they are two different pointers.) (This I am describing is not Flex computer, though.)
< 1742620493 273232 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :You may be right that it is too specific and too vague, but I am not sure how to make it better.
> 1742625586 552249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Amethyst14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154320&oldid=154299 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+998) 10
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< 1742653775 73712 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1742653865 727391 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : Do you know if there are issues with optimization with the C compiler if you are storing a capability in a uint64_t variable even though arithmetic is not allowed (and will result in a run time error)? ← so there is a CPU sort-of like that which gets unintentionally targeted by existing C compilers – valgrind implements a virtual CPU and it can track extra bits of data about memory, e.g. whether that data is initialised
< 1742653926 532890 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in order to work with existing C programs that were written without knowledge of it, it had to allow a number of things that would otherwise not be allowed, e.g. in Valgrind memcheck, arithmetic on uninitialised data is permitted but returns uninitialised results, and copying uninitialised data is allowed, but branching on uninitialised data isn't
< 1742653966 707486 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I imagine it wouldn't be too hard to design the sort of capability-locking CPU you want as a Valgrind backend (relative to the other possibilities for implementing it, at least)
< 1742653998 707771 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and in practice, most compilers don't optimise copies of machine-word-sized things into anything other than copies (although they may copy through memory or through a vector register)
< 1742654008 490215 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because generally that's what's fastest on the CPU
< 1742654151 580420 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, I don't think optimisers *guarantee* to not, e.g., spill values by representing them as an arithmetic combination of other known values – they're allowed to do so in theory, just usually don't in practice
< 1742654372 710394 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, https://xkcd.com/3062/ resonates with this in a weird way
< 1742654675 254231 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://sourceware.org/glibc/manual/latest/html_node/Atomic-Types.html#index-sig_005fatomic_005ft has some vague wording on this: "In practice, you can assume that int is atomic [wrt signal handlers, not threads]. You can also assume that pointer types are atomic; that is very convenient. Both of these assumptions are true on all of the machines that the GNU C Library supports and on all POSIX systems 
< 1742654681 270239 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we know of." but that text was written so many years ago that the compilers may have changed since
< 1742654730 186390 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I think you need a "volatile" to benefit from those guarantees
< 1742654751 344237 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :otherwise it breaks in situations as simple as reading the same global variable twice
< 1742654809 582050 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: ok, but here we're not making a signal handler, we just want to know that the magical integer that zzo mentions is copied as a whole between memory and registers rather than eg. character by character
< 1742654964 278458 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though of course the processor will have to follow that tag bit for every word of a vector register separately across all loads and stores for this to work, but I think zzo38 is assuming that the processor does that
< 1742654992 60149 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, compilers often use over-wide registers for that sort of thing, but don't tend to generate, e.g., XOR swaps
< 1742654994 122118 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because eg. copying a large structure or array can use vector registers
< 1742655004 158673 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, I think copying a large array can become a call to libc memcpy
< 1742655022 258828 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and that may attempt to copy a byte at a time in some situations
< 1742655048 432974 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, with the caveat that the compiler requires that the memcpy implementation is a no-op when the from and to address matches, which is not generally true in the C standard
< 1742655087 372449 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I think that wording I quoted from the libc manual does try to imply that memcpy doesn't break pointers or ints into smaller pieces
< 1742655113 51316 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(they have to be aligned, but C or C++ requires that anyway of these types)
< 1742655179 289130 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and if instead of a well-written memcpy you write your own char* loop then of course you don't get such a guarantee
< 1742655338 94860 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm how closely does this question tie into the earlier discussion about CHERI?
< 1742655491 756532 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, I find zzo38's hypothetical quite esoteric. normally you'd either make those capabilities a special type with copy and destroy functions in the library (with possibly compiler support if they're sufficiently magical); or make them similar to unix file descriptors so they're a plain integer but you have to close them explicitly and use extra functions to pass to a different process (except 
< 1742655497 764314 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they need not be like unix file descriptors in that they need not have a guarantee that creating a new capability takes the lowest unused number, and they could be in a different namespace than ordinary file descriptors); or if you really want plain data then you'd make it wider, sized between 16 and 64 bytes, and filled with random data each time you create, then they can be bytewise copied fine.
< 1742655650 786549 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw I've been trying to get gcc to optimise a copy of an int array followed by a char array into one big memcpy, but it refuses to do so
< 1742655666 702618 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :FWIW I wish zzo38 had explained the tag bit detail a bit sooner. It makes the question much clearer.
< 1742655678 776976 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :clang will generate a call to libc memcpy, though
< 1742655707 367073 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: is it in code where you aren't allowed to write past the end of the char array and that end needn't be aligned?
< 1742655712 89795 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but oddly it generates two calls for the int-then-char
< 1742655730 684491 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yes, if gcc is allowed to write past the end (e.g. struct padding) then it does
< 1742655820 243025 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually the compilers are showing a big lack of joined-up-thinking here
< 1742655841 455950 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if I have a struct with two array fields, and copy the struct, it compiles to one memcpy – if I copy both fields, it compiles two two memcpies, even though that is equivalent
< 1742656067 430799 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strange
< 1742656078 156428 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is true in both gcc and clang
< 1742656097 215004 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, clang uses a call to libc memcpy and gcc uses the processor's memcpy intrinsic
< 1742656116 309810 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(modern x86 and x86-64 have a memcpy routine in microcode that you can call into)
< 1742656168 780645 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"call" meaning `rep movs[size]`?
< 1742656171 214678 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it isn't immediately clear whether the processor's microcoded memcpy is faster or slower than one running in software – the issue is that the branch predictor cares about the memory addresses of branches in order to remember their histories
< 1742656176 819341 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: yes
< 1742656179 831948 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, gcc has the right to use either a built-in memcpy that it can optimize inline or call a memcpy that libc or you provide
< 1742656202 425900 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so if the whole thing is written as a single rep movsq then the branch predictor has nowhere to store its memory of how the copy branched
< 1742656244 161635 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Naively... it /could/ attach it to the rep movs if it wanted to?
< 1742656257 566507 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: there are multiple branches within the microcode, typically
< 1742656265 23913 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :right
< 1742656334 684386 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :modern CPUs also have predictors for not just where branches go, but whether an instruction is a branch or not
< 1742656349 682905 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in order to be able to speculate past the "branch" before the instruction is even decoded
< 1742656404 419934 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :heh then again you get extra speculation opportunities for `rep movs` because you know a lot of registers that won't change
< 1742656415 712836 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean if you want to
< 1742656419 708459 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :AMD got hit with a new Spectre variant semi-recently in which the processor was trained into expecting that a return instruction would actually be a branch instruction, sending the speculative execution off to a gadget despite the existing Spectre mitigations
< 1742656444 691742 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(hmm it's not even speculation then, just out-of-order execution)
< 1742656458 458966 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I can reasonably get an efficient (i.e. implemented with aligned vector moves) memcpy down to just two branches
< 1742656463 666112 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one which special-cases short inputs and one for the loop
< 1742656487 136984 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(for long inputs you unconditionally copy the first vectorful of data using misaligned vector moves, likewise the last vectorful, and then just copy the aligned portion in between with a loop)
< 1742656505 14028 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: sure, the cpu wants to predict the target of the ret instruction, and I think it uses both the normal branch predictor for that and some special mechanism just for rets. that's why they even tell you to use a two-byte ret instead of the one-byte near ret.
< 1742656512 769350 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :memcpy has to deal with unaligned cases though and that'll be a few extra jumps?
< 1742656547 402532 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: the two-byte ret case doesn't apply any more – when it did, the reason was that the branch predictor had a limit for how often in bytes it could make predictions
< 1742656556 120529 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so if you had a jump two executed bytes in a row, it would cause trouble
< 1742656570 793885 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you can try extra arithmetic where you use a bit-wise or of the pointer arguments, mask the bottom bits, then add the length and compare that...
< 1742656583 915518 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: no, the idea is you unconditionally copy the first (e.g.) 32 and last 32 bytes, using unaligned copies
< 1742656584 960646 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: you know https://www.agner.org/optimize/#asmlib has an optimized memcpy written by someone who understands optimizing for different x86 cpus right? he can specialize it for different processor implementations because they behave differently
< 1742656589 722805 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :then copy all the aligned 32-byte blocks in between
< 1742656626 571949 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: you still have to check that the alignments match
< 1742656629 992347 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this works for any input that's at least 32 bytes long regardless of alignment (although if source and destination have different alignments you have to misalign either the reads or the writes, but you'd probably do that anyway)
< 1742656647 819960 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: no you don't, if the alignments don't match the you still want unaligned reads and aligned writes 
< 1742656662 523632 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you can always just do aligned writes regardless if the alignment matches
< 1742656680 202549 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: so I think the two reasonable ways to do it are either a) unaligned reads and aligned writes, or b) aligned reads, a shuffle/permute, and aligned writes
< 1742656701 478736 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: but there are special instructions for aligned reads which might be a tad faster?
< 1742656708 165367 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b) isn't generally used, but it could in theory be faster
< 1742656719 660449 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: those instructions aren't faster, they just trap given unaligned inputs
< 1742656735 595724 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :aligned reads are faster than unaligned reads *but* this is true regardless of whether you use the aligned or unaligned read instruction
< 1742656758 312098 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you don't pay for an unaligned read unless the input actually is misaligned, regardless of which instruction you use
< 1742656803 552935 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this is talking about modern x86, in which unaligned reads are actually as fast as aligned as long as they don't cross a cache line boundary)
< 1742656821 545290 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess that makes sense. But yeah it sounds like it might vary between architectures.
< 1742656833 350348 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(but normally when doing unaligned reads in a loop, you amortize the misalignment penalty across all the reads rather than treating the crossing and non-crossing ones differently)
< 1742656858 492973 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I don't think shuffle/permute is ever worth for that, because if you must do an unaligned copy then the x86 processor optimizes the unaligned read better than you can with shuffles; however, you can argue that sometimes when you have written the source recently but won't read the destination for a while you may want to do an aligned read and unaligned write to reduce latency
< 1742656876 362565 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, for 16-byte reads, those cross boundaries ¼ of the time when misaligned so you approximate by saying they're 25% slower (the boundary-crossing read runs at half speed)
< 1742656885 597328 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :especially if you find an architecture that didn't start out with supporting unaligned reads for everything the way x86 did
< 1742656927 453600 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: so the reason it might help is that the unaligned read is reading two cache lines, then the next read is reading the same cache line again, so you have 1 more memory access
< 1742656954 752273 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, that access is to L1 (as you only just read it) which might allow it to beat the arithmetic
< 1742657011 652563 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, I think it can beat the unaligned read when the processor can do store-load forwarding because you just stored, but I think in that case an aligned read and unaligned write won't be worse than trying to shuffle
< 1742657041 973024 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oddly, I discovered recently that x86-64 has two different misaligned-vector-read instructions nowadays (MOVDQU and LDDQU) – LDDQU is apparently faster for misaligned reads in cases where the memory isn't written to in the near future, MOVDQU if it is
< 1742657043 706231 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although...
< 1742657046 571948 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway. I see plenty of room for zzo38's plan to go wrong. Like... would a CPU really add support for those tags to all vector registers, if it has them? That sounds like a big ask...
< 1742657072 849233 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, I concede, I think there might be some rare case when a vector byte shift is faster
< 1742657091 551155 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think I'd ever write that, but if you're very good at optimizing you could
< 1742657091 682427 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not entirely sure what's going on microarchitecturally to cause that sort of performance difference
< 1742657108 955817 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the real question here is "what is the copy bound by"
< 1742657126 455368 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if either end of the copy is not in L1 then I think the bottleneck will be L2/L3/main memory speed
< 1742657153 326600 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1742657154 512363 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the manually-aligned and unaligned-read versions will run at the same spee
< 1742657156 59175 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* speed
< 1742657217 426232 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and if you do copies of short ranges (which is very common in real code) then you can easily mess up and then bound will be the cost you're imposing on instruction decoding caches by using a more complicated code than you should have
< 1742657218 914619 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a cache-line-boundary-crossing L1 read is the same speed as an aligned L2 read, so the cost of the misaligned read doesn't matter as soon as you hit L2, that would be a good reason to do the misaligned read version
< 1742657235 454868 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so memcpy entirely within L1 is the interesting case
< 1742657282 946397 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :incidentally, is L3 slower or faster than correctly prefeteched main memory nowadays? e.g. if you're just reading at sequentially increasing addresses, does hitting main memory rather than L3 even matter
< 1742657340 513136 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://stackoverflow.com/questions/47425851/whats-the-difference-between-mm256-lddqu-si256-and-mm256-loadu-si256 says there's no difference except for Pentium 4?
< 1742657343 582907 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's a program I've been performance-optimising for ages, and discovered the hardware prefetcher being cleverer than I expected
< 1742657438 594877 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: ooh! so the difference is not "will write it soon" but "recently wrote it", and the instructions had different store-forwarding behaviour once
< 1742657524 324683 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, the store-load-forwarding is why you may want aligned reads even if it means you have to do either unaligned writes or vector shifts, even though unaligned writes are usually a bad idea, but if you won't read the destination for a while then it might not matter too much
< 1742657543 116682 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm so I guess the change is that they incorporated all the opitimzations into movdqu for the common case (cached write-combining memory)
< 1742657553 154472 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't really know if it's ever really worth, I just can't exclude that it's not worth
< 1742657577 65513 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: isn't the normal sort of cache called "write-through" by Intel? write-combining is something else, and rarely used
< 1742657584 936472 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure I even want to know, I don't think I want to optimize code that involves unaligned stuff (like byte-string handling for network communication) to this level
< 1742657675 135701 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: the case that got me looking at this was writing a compiler that's operating on data that it can't prove aligned, even though it logically should be
< 1742657691 85368 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the same sort of thing as "memcpy where you don't know where the pointer comes from"
< 1742657722 249504 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unrelated question. in libcurl for HTTP/HTTPS, how do I tell the library that it should close persistent connections now because I won't be starting a new request for a while and they'll be too old to reuse by then anyway? the documentation is unclear. I still want to keep other data (SSL and DNS caches) between the requests, just not the network connections.
< 1742658033 18122 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, in practice, I think most mallocs don't guarantee cache-line alignment when allocating large amounts of memory
< 1742658056 397221 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :logically they should – there's basically no cost to doing so and it could help in some situations
< 1742658066 66757 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(there is cost for small allocations, which would be a reason not to do it there)
< 1742658291 573107 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :these days all the malloc libraries have an API for aligned allocations and I think they all support 64-byte alignment properly because that's a common thing to ask for, so if you want cache line alignment you can get it
< 1742658536 164565 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hold on, that's not true
< 1742658623 343939 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hold on, that's not true, glibc doesn't seem to expose an api for aligned realloc
< 1742658790 825067 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I guess we're both wrong, the normal operation for RAM is write-back. Now I'll have to read what write-combining actually means to Intel. Write-through means all writes by the CPU end up as individual bus or memory transactions going out of the CPU. Write-combining relaxes that, but how much...
< 1742658974 450949 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I actually checked how my own PC's RAM is currently configured. Which was less obvious than I thought it would be; /proc/mtrr doesn't list the default, only the special regions...)
< 1742659011 317412 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(but  rdmsr 0x2FF  works)
< 1742659108 174518 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: ah right, yes, write-back
< 1742659145 625099 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my mental model for how write-combining works is that it has its own separate very small cache that is only used for writes, but I don't know whether that's correct or not
< 1742659218 295226 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :non-temporal writes are write-combining even on regular memory, that's what makes me think it works like that
< 1742659245 558803 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : The non-temporal hint is implemented by using a write combining (WC) memory type protocol when writing the data to memory. Using this protocol, the processor does not write the data into the cache hierarchy, nor does it fetch the corresponding cache line from memory into the cache hierarchy.
< 1742659565 476983 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"13.3.1 Buffering of Write Combining Memory Locations" is where it goes into details of operation
< 1742659763 549900 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also MTRRs are not the end of the story... there's a page attribute table mechanisms that I've never heard of. Can I inspect those? Hmm.
< 1742659894 558410 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can, it's exposed in the debug-fs, cf. https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/MTRR_and_PAT
< 1742660029 72706 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and for me it only has entries in the lower 4GB, outside of RAM, so the default write-back should still win.
< 1742660054 329397 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but there are write-combining regions in there, presumably for the GPU
< 1742660115 666378 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :this was... a fun rabbit hole
< 1742660650 37415 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Actually let me retract the vector register remark regarding tracking tag bits... you're already going to maintain those tag bits in caches and RAM, might just as well go the extra mile.
< 1742663191 201322 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:e1c2:84b0:caab:9b02 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1742666517 854180 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move_redir10 02 5* 0347 5*  10moved [[02NH310]] to [[NH]] over redirect
> 1742666517 870132 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete_redir10 02 5* 0347 5*  1047 deleted redirect [[02NH10]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[NH3]]"
> 1742666577 4766 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NH14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154334&oldid=154332 5* 0347 5* (-110) 10
< 1742666648 800444 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Tangent to the discussion's multiple points: how do folks feel about SWAR/broadword techniques? If we're storing a relatively small value with a relatively large number of tag bits, then we might end up with values that are 4+4, 8+4, or 8+8 bits wide.
< 1742668333 374399 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: so most "tagging for security/safety", like CHERI uses and like zzo38 is using with capabillities, generally only needs to be done on wide values
< 1742668368 785434 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :tagging small values is useful for things like carry bits, but normally SWAR-style vectorisation doesn't store carry bits (which is something that has caused some complexity for me recently)
< 1742668419 344386 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can sometimes check for carry by comparing the one of the inputs to an addition to the output, to see if the result was lower than an input (IIRC it can't be between, so you can compare to either input safely)
< 1742668441 934060 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, unless I'm missing something, AVX2 has neither carry bits nor unsigned integer comparisons
< 1742668474 744367 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the "compare to an input" doesn't work to check overflow for signed addition
< 1742669072 296713 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait AVX2 doesn't have unsigned comparison? let me check that
< 1742669107 838273 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought even SSE2 had unsigned comparison
< 1742669540 491645 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh, you're right, it takes three instructions to unsigned compare in SSE2. only AVX512 adds an instruction for it.
< 1742669546 307498 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I totally forgot this
< 1742669873 806 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nope, only *two* instructions for an unsigned compare: PMINU[BWDQ] followed by PCMPEQ[BWDQ]
< 1742671408 484818 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I think it's still three – that implements ≥ / ≤ not > / <
< 1742671564 43275 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and you need an extra instruction to invert the sense of the result
< 1742671730 195754 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: kind of, but you usually don't need an extra instruction to invert a boolean vector, you can almost always just merge it for free in the next instruction that uses it (possibly also with giving inverted result)
< 1742671782 862943 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and this is easy to implement in library level with an inverted vector type and overloaded functions
< 1742671804 36492 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ooh, is that why PANDN exists in addition to PAND?
< 1742671827 775845 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(there isn't a PORN, maybe they didn't like the mnemonic)
< 1742671894 176883 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, this way PAND, PANDN, POR, PXOR cover all the boolean operations 
< 1742671951 178597 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1742671953 452637 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I partly implemented this inverted scheme in the SSE4_1 vector library for work back when not every computer that I was working with had AVX yet
< 1742672018 587398 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I didn't completely implement it because there are operations that I didn't add, but while I was the only user it would be easy to just add more functions as I need them
< 1742672048 832442 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I indeed added some in later versions
< 1742672064 213530 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is in C++ 
< 1742672243 20039 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
< 1742672309 463603 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean PAND, PANDN, POR, PXOR cover all the two-input *bitwise* operations if you allow that sometimes the output is complemented
< 1742672396 610621 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one use is a PAND, PANDN, POR sequence for componentwise branchless if-then-else conditional
< 1742672398 140886 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess i'm thinking mostly of when you want to use the boolean as an if conditional (but in a SIMDy way, i.e. you evaluate both sides)
< 1742672412 535897 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in that case having an inverted result might not be what you want
< 1742672591 182127 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, sometimes you need to insert an extra invert. 
< 1742672633 893682 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1742673985 709870 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1742674342 561049 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, yet another different question. do you think I can still claim that sqlite3 is the second most installed software library in the world? I talked about this at some point on esoteric, but that was years ago and something like that could change during the years.
< 1742674379 159164 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in particular, do Windowses come with a copy of tzdb, or do they have an entirely different implementation? because maybe tzdb is ahead of sqlite3
> 1742674610 912639 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154335&oldid=154325 5* 03Buckets 5* (+14) 10
< 1742674646 230949 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I guess the netlib code for decimal formatting of floating point may be a candidate too
< 1742674682 836360 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I want this for my cv or job interviews so it doesn't have to be strictly true, but it at least has to be plausible enough that a potential employer can believe it
> 1742674698 456023 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154336&oldid=154309 5* 03Buckets 5* (+13) 10
> 1742674737 635682 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Go back14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154337 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1286) 10Created page with "Go back is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2020. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | #[] || Infinite Loop/Start. |- | [] || Infinite Loop. |- | +m || Change the current Loop by + m. |- | -n || Change the current Loop b
< 1742674861 840177 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, https://sqlite.org/mostdeployed.html now talks about this explicitly
< 1742674875 889272 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it says "probably one of the top five"
< 1742674907 471528 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and "our best guess is ... second most deployed"
< 1742674943 156260 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, then I can absolutely round that up to second most deployed in a job interview, regardless of tzdb 
> 1742674995 527437 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esorn14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154338&oldid=154315 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1) 10
> 1742675069 654827 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esorn14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154339&oldid=154338 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1) 10
> 1742675217 737275 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Happy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154340&oldid=153949 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1) 10
> 1742675460 535478 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154341&oldid=154304 5* 03Buckets 5* (-1) 10
< 1742675666 778992 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :If capabilities are required to be aligned, then it is simpler; each general-purpose register needs one tag bit and each eight bytes of general-purpose RAM needs one tag bit, and you don't have to worry so much about broken apart copies, etc, although there is still the consideration of doing unaligned copies of smaller data.
< 1742675706 159496 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :However, I think there are some reasons why you might want unaligned capabilities; this is more difficult but I think still might be able to be done.
< 1742675731 250487 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :With unaligned capabilities, each general-purpose register has one tag bit and each byte of general-purpose RAM has two tag bits.
< 1742675825 454407 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Copying blocks of memory into a place that will overwrite part of a capability should be safe (although there are a few considerations having to do with virtual memory), but it will have to ensure that ythe first byte of the source is not a non-first byte of a capability and the last byte of the source is not a non-last byte of a capability.
> 1742675852 648057 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Happy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154342&oldid=154340 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+0) 10
> 1742675873 620502 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Happy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154343&oldid=154342 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+0) 10
> 1742675886 77176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BrainWrite14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154344&oldid=96575 5* 03Buckets 5* (+220) 10
< 1742675899 364184 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : ok, yet another different question. do you think I can still claim that sqlite3 is the second most installed software library in the world? I talked about this at some point on esoteric, but that was years ago and something like that could change during the years. ← I would have guessed zlib as most-installed, although I forgot about tzdb
< 1742675931 946900 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, the page you link also mentions zlib
> 1742675983 126022 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Array?14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154345&oldid=149392 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-6) 10/* Implementation */
< 1742676000 715469 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, I also assume that zlib has more copies than sqlite3
> 1742676008 533786 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Ractangle 5*  10moved [[02Array?10]] to [[UNAI]]
> 1742676008 572354 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Ractangle 5*  10moved [[02Talk:Array?10]] to [[Talk:UNAI]]
< 1742676029 424260 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :libpng is also mentioned on the sqlite page, although I would expect libpng to depend on zlib
< 1742676039 85582 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in which case it couldn't reasonably beat it
< 1742676044 863520 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zlib will eventually lose out as more modern compression libraries that also have their own implementation of zlib take it over, but that'll take like decades
> 1742676053 577566 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UNAI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154350&oldid=154346 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-7) 10
< 1742676115 744501 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not convinced, most computers with a more modern compression library will still need zlib for things that have it as a dependency
< 1742676144 606944 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I used zlib as a dependency of NH4 on the basis that the user was very likely to have a copy already
< 1742676159 571841 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah
< 1742676167 204670 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm… now I'm thinking about the way that on Windows, programs are expected to ship their own libcs
< 1742676205 395356 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Some programs might have different implementations of DEFLATE
< 1742676218 912511 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it makes it very difficult to use open-source compilers on Windows, because the libc needs to link against OS internals which aren't widely known (I think they might be publicly available but am not sure) and the Microsoft-provided libcs have license conditions preventing you linking against them with your own non-MSVC compilers
> 1742676221 280337 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UNAI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154351&oldid=154350 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-91) 10/* Commands */
> 1742676244 243830 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UNAI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154352&oldid=154351 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+0) 10/* Hello, world! */
< 1742676258 485673 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :mingw works by linking against an OS-provided library which has a lot of libc functionality in it, although it isn't a standard libc and not all the functions in it obey the C specification
< 1742676271 910106 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and Microsoft say not to do that, but don't offer reasonable alternatives
> 1742676273 458084 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UNAI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154353&oldid=154352 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-2) 10/* Cat program */
< 1742676291 203597 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Will ReactOS be helpful for making open-source compilers on Windows?
< 1742676313 222922 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't understand, aren't you just supposed to use the libc that comes with MSVC, even if it is not compliant with the C specification in a lot of ways?
< 1742676319 950398 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: that's an interesting point, actually – ReactOS/Wine's shared codebase would probably a useful target to develop against if writing a Windows libc from scratch
< 1742676395 428669 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: you can't do that legally, but I think you have confused two libcs – there is the libc that comes with MSVC which is mostly specification-compliant, and which you can distribute with your programs but can't legally link against with non-MSVC, so mingw can't use it – and there is the libc-like library which comes with Windows (called MSVCRT.DLL) which is not very standards-compliant
< 1742676408 750389 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(yes, it's confusing that the one called MSVC is the one that doesn't come with MSVC)
< 1742676430 71719 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: you can't ship that MSVC, but can't you link to it and have the user install the library separately downloading it from Microsoft if it doesn't ship with Windows?
< 1742676469 469276 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm very likely confused about how all this works
< 1742676594 244776 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also for just the operating system interfaces, aren't they in a separately library that you can link to without linking to any libc-like thing?
< 1742676613 440537 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yes but the documentation for that is hard to find
< 1742676623 490703 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that's what Microsoft's "official" suggestion is, but AFAICT nobody has actually done that
< 1742676638 480551 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(i.e. "if you're writing your own compiler you don't get to leech off our libc")
< 1742676662 760752 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder whether any of the existing Linux/Unix libcs works on Windows, using Windows kernel interfaces
< 1742676668 489274 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what does the clang C and C++ environment that zig distributes these days do?
< 1742676742 691097 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: found it: "Distribution of the Visual C++ Runtime Redistributable package, merge modules, and individual binaries is limited to licensed Visual Studio users and is subject to such License Terms."
< 1742676767 750886 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so either the developer or the end user would need a Visual Studio license
< 1742676792 860402 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do have a Visual Studio license, but for a computer that is no longer operational
< 1742676808 895940 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: that says "distribution". you can still link to it, and have the user download it from microsoft, can't you? like with microsoft's fonts
< 1742676860 871802 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe? this is the point where I would start to not trust a programmer's interpretation of the law
< 1742676897 690129 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean, all this nonsense about windows being hard to develop to is part of why I prefer to develop for linux rather than windows. It's not even just libc directly, but that many other programmers find windows development difficult and so don't port their libraries to windows in a convenient form, so anything I try will run into a dependency being hard to use. Or the dependencies are available, but they 
< 1742676900 900162 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it would be incompatible with the GPL (which only lets you link to closed-source system libraries in certain circumstances, and this isn't one of them)
< 1742676903 698853 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :are for different pseudo-architectures on windows, like they use different libcs or compilers, and I can't link them together.
< 1742676920 886438 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I agree, although Windows is less hostile to develop for than Mac OS X nowadays
< 1742676941 370761 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Apple have lots of rules for developers to follow, which wouldn't be as bad if they didn't keep changing
< 1742676967 925496 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and game consoles are even worse, sure
< 1742676986 387997 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but OS X just never came up, whereas I use Windows for work all the time, so I do encounter that problem
< 1742677001 90462 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I haven't tried to develop for Android but a former coworker did, I'd put it somewhere around the Windows level of difficulty
< 1742677032 41125 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least Windows can be cross-compiled onto relatively simply, meaning that the only real problem is the dependencies
< 1742677058 33254 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :exactly, needing a visual studio license as a developer isn't a problem if it's for work
< 1742677065 140442 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :BSD is easy to develop for, just as good as Linux
< 1742677074 399506 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I don't want to have to spend time porting every dependency
< 1742677133 350517 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I haven't targeted many other things – some bare-metal microcontrollers where the major issue is that the toolchains are usually terrible
< 1742677143 19499 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like most potential dependencies are well-written and should be possible to port, but I shouldn't have to
< 1742677161 340686 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one of them, the officially supported compiler was an old version of gcc that had been patched to call out to a separate executable to see whether you'd paid for a license
< 1742677184 130603 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is not technically a GPL breach because nothing was preventing you patching it back again, but they were hoping that people wouldn't go to the trouble of recompiling
< 1742677221 407575 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, I don't care too much about the bare-metal microcontrollers, but they happen to be useful in that a lot of the rust and zig community do care about such uses, and that makes rust and zig get more attention and better development even for windows or linux
< 1742677228 63575 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(or you could just replace the separate executable with your own executable that implemented the same API)
< 1742677272 653840 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :most of my microcontroller development was done in asm, though
< 1742677287 201742 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, shapez the game is following that model: they have a (cheap) payed licensed version sold on Steam and an open source version where you have to do some slight inconvenience to compile it for yourself
< 1742677295 110626 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because I was working with microcontrollers too small for most compilers to be able to target them, as their runtimes wouldn't fit
< 1742677345 770723 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they had substantially less than a kilobyte of RAM
< 1742677356 161266 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and a few kilobytes of flash memory to store the program
< 1742681696 385981 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:e1c2:84b0:caab:9b02 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
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< 1742684445 524586 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had seen many requests from different IP address and user-agents that do not seem to be legitimate, and had read that apparently they are LLM scraping that are badly implemented.
< 1742684483 30775 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had seen, and also had some ideas, about how to work against it or how to stop it. Will the use of a EICAR test file help at all?
< 1742684650 683790 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Can redirects be used to confuse them?
< 1742684711 32748 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(possibly redirects to http://127.0.0.1/ if that is able to be usable to control anything?)
< 1742684992 295574 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: there are lots of different badly implemented scrapers out there
< 1742685009 665051 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and no consensus about how to deal with them
< 1742685114 36943 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :They all seem to claim to be Mozilla-based, and use different IP addresses for every request (possibly with the exception of redirects, as far as I can tell)
< 1742685146 40595 :alec3660!~quassel@user/alec3660 QUIT :Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.
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> 1742685331 645539 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Countup14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154354&oldid=101775 5* 03Buckets 5* (+2) 10
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< 1742689371 566453 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I wonder if the "different IP address for every request" is exploitable somehow – perhaps by putting up an interstitial if an access is made from an IP address that hasn't accessed recently and isn't accessing the home page (or other pages that would be likely to be accessed directly)
< 1742689683 974518 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I did think of that. (I also considered limiting that to HTML, and possibly also limited to user-agents with "Mozilla")
< 1742690346 620303 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :However, any of these things will not prevent clients from trying to access them, although it does prevent dynamic files from being accessed (which often will cost more, so it can help a bit, if the filter to prevent access doesn't cost more, I suppose). I was also wondering if there is a way to confuse the botnets or whatever they are (someone said they might be botnets).
< 1742690691 457592 :molson_!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-7643-886B-E05B-CC83-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
> 1742690723 623953 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0716 bits, 256 bytes14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154355&oldid=154098 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+0) 10
< 1742690842 779701 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think that would be hard to make not annoying for legitimate users
< 1742691182 955361 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lots of sites are using Cloudflare interstitials to try to stop the AI bots
< 1742691225 667190 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it is a bit annoying
< 1742691273 244000 :JAA!~JAA@user/meow/JAA PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, another community battling with the LLM bots.
< 1742691329 98052 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the entire Internet is at the moment
< 1742691334 367341 :JAA!~JAA@user/meow/JAA PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah
< 1742691545 576367 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Currently, I have disabled my HTTP server although the other protocols are still available.
< 1742691547 601045 :JAA!~JAA@user/meow/JAA PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder what they do with meta refreshes.
< 1742691549 884560 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oddly most of my access logs appear to be vulnerability scans (presumably black hat, although I can't tell from the logs)
< 1742691573 314568 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it may be because my website doesn't have very many different pages, so the AI bots can scrape it fairly quickly
< 1742691622 597990 :JAA!~JAA@user/meow/JAA PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, yeah. I'm running a code forge, so there are virtually infinitely many deep rabbit holes they can hunt.
< 1742691701 483412 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder whether I should try to set up some sort of fail2ban on 404s
< 1742691751 666274 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had seen an article in 2600 about vulnerability scans, that is saying that the people who write the vulnerability scanners should not make it access all of the files several times, since many of the accesses are redundant and are unnecessary.
< 1742691761 470916 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although my webserver doesn't have CGI or anything similar enabled so it is unlikely to find any actual exploits, the speed at which it's attempting them could potentially be problematic for CPU load (although I think it's run out of things to try by now, another bot might later try the same thing)
< 1742691933 222685 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have what seems to be vulnerability scans in my logs as well, although I also have what seems to be attempts to connect to port 80 using TLS (but I do not currently have servers with TLS, on any port).
< 1742692195 499216 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have version control repositories, although most of these are mirrored on GitHub, that does not help if you want to use Fossil instead.
< 1742692484 546263 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Another thing I use the Fossil wiki for though is recording what happens in the GURPS game I play. (These are publicly available (when the HTTP server is running), although only those who are involved with the GURPS campaign are allowed to edit it.)
< 1742692659 623239 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :So, due to this, it is sometimes necessary for the server to be available for this purpose. I could change it to work differently, but it will be necessary to be compatible with iPad, as well as computers with Windows and Linux. I do make a archive file of all of the text that can be downloaded and used without an internet connection, but you still need to connect to the server to download it.
< 1742692984 38873 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also received the request "t3 12.1.2" (which is not a valid HTTP request); do you know what that is? I received the same request on the Scorpion server (port 1517; it is not a valid request there, either). They are on different dates from different IP addresses.
< 1742693277 923013 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, my HTTP server has some internal stuff which is only used on my computer. I suppose I could configure it to block the port temporarily, so that it will still work locally.
< 1742693510 774108 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also receive HTTP requests on my SMTP sometimes, for some reason.
< 1742693883 198168 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1742696155 264582 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zudjn14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154356&oldid=152575 5* 03DevThatCodes 5* (+3) 10/* syntax */
> 1742696208 997014 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zudjn14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154357&oldid=154356 5* 03DevThatCodes 5* (+24) 10/* syntax */
> 1742696372 821302 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Yugoslavic14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154358 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+8874) 10Created page with "{{WIP}}  Yugoslavic() is a pseudo-natural programming language designed by PSTF, based on Srpski and [[LOLCODE]].  There are two variant of Srpski: One is Cyrillic and another is Latin. We use Cyrillic variant.  There are six variant of this language: Srpski(Se
> 1742696496 661660 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Yugoslavic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154359&oldid=154358 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+225) 10
> 1742696531 407296 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154360&oldid=154335 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+17) 10
> 1742696588 581523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Yugoslavic14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154361 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+955) 10Created page with "Are there any users from Serbia?        ?  --[[User:PrySigneToFry|]]User talk:PrySigneToFry| 1742696932 799816 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Braindrunk14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154362&oldid=154331 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+16838) 10/* The partial output of 99 bottles of beers on my computer */ new section
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< 1742699104 346961 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
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< 1742700954 607141 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: conditional moves can be worse: they can be an XOR, followed by masking, followed by another XOR
< 1742701085 246756 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Not completely unlike the XOR swap pattern, but I'd agree that no compiler is likely to ever use that.)
< 1742701246 654205 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :What's worse about this is that it produces intermediate values that are meaningless (in context: not capabilities nor an easy constant that's all-0 or all-1).
< 1742701764 783879 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523, int-e, tromp: Have y'all had a chance to look at Sammy yet? I was going to hold off on pinging until I'd fleshed out the article, but right now it looks like I might be busy delivering value to clients for a few weeks.
< 1742701780 231457 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Any other Kolmogorov complexity enjoyers?
< 1742701964 526470 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :f the compiler does that, that would be a problem, since my idea was that it would be an error to produce such intermediate values that are otherwise meaningless (even if those values are never used). However, I also had the idea (before you mentioned this but after I thought about it initially, but that I did not mention yet), that AND, OR, or XOR of a capability with itself would be valid.
< 1742702032 297120 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the result will be the capability for AND and OR, and will be zero in the case of XOR; this zero is not a capability, so it would clear the capability bit from the register that the result is written to in the case of XOR)
< 1742702116 916794 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :If it is necessary, then I suppose it is also possible to make it allow AND and OR of a capability with either 0 or -1, and XOR with 0 (but not with -1).
< 1742702427 75104 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Although it would be possible to allow meaningless intermediate values, it would be too complicated, so it is best not to allow it, I think.)
< 1742702768 993514 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I've decided not to care about Sammy. I.e., I'm not going to unravel the category lingo and translate it into something I actually understand.
< 1742702890 632609 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(No offense intended to you or anybody else.)
< 1742702897 339676 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: That's fair. Would it help if I wrote out decategorifications in Set or maybe Pos (partial orders & monotone functions)? By folklore, we could talk about constructions in set theory.
< 1742702977 159368 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :No worries, I'm not hurt. I'm mostly vindicated because this gives us a reason to care about the names of categories. One of the nLab admins once said that naming categories is like counting sand on the beach, which makes sense if you don't have an uncomputable Sand -> N measuring some complexity, etc.
< 1742703140 981588 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I'd look at such a decatogorisation. I can't promise that I can actually do anything with it, obviously.
< 1742703169 933012 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :cat*e*gorization
< 1742703254 1731 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :No worries. It's good enough to have a hint of what to work on next time.
< 1742703342 848005 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ironically I really liked the categorical algebra/coalgebra constructions (with types as initial algebras and final coalgebras). But that's ultimately concrete.
< 1742703352 755082 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I need to figure out how computable a type-checker would be, and also how uncomputable a Kan extension really is. I know that the decategorification to Set is computable because there's a book explaining how to do it in SML: https://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~david/categories/book/book.pdf
< 1742703608 699226 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, if it sounds more tractable, I can put a measure onto *Cammy* (my language) using Yanofsky's approach. Cammy's combinators include bicartesian-closed categories, whose rewrites are known to not be finitely axiomatizable, so we should get an interesting complexity measure.
< 1742704529 224780 :LKoen!Ae@linux.touz.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
> 1742705652 493014 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fi (Archived)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154364&oldid=105771 5* 03Rdococ 5* (+1264) 10I may as well try to do a thing with this
> 1742705676 582795 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move_redir10 02 5* 03Rdococ 5*  10moved [[02Fi (Archived)10]] to [[Fi]] over redirect
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< 1742705722 399653 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think my brain broke. I put 'second derivative of signum(x)' into Wolfram Alpha and it said something about the Dirac function. I googled it earlier and assumed the mention I saw was some AI hallucination, but... I guess not?
> 1742705740 732810 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Rdococ14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154369&oldid=148595 5* 03Rdococ 5* (+90) 10
< 1742705800 523978 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :And I thought the first derivative would be undefined at x=0
< 1742705992 684876 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wikipedia says the dirac function isn't a function, and differentiating sign function at x=0 requires a more expansive than usual definition of derivative
< 1742706253 621711 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :IIRC it's a function over the reals iff equality over the reals is available. It's not a feature of constructive maths.
< 1742706739 798 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Dirac delta is not a real-valued function.
< 1742706821 32629 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(but you can still model it as a function that takes on a specific infinite value at 0)
< 1742707938 896605 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I already struggle with thinking about category theory as my brain tends to blur the various levels of abstraction, and Sammy adds an extra level and thus makes things worse
< 1742707951 296392 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think I'm at all likely to get into the right mental state to understand it
< 1742707997 729456 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is definitely very esoteric, though
< 1742708248 660543 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirac_delta_function#Derivatives seems to be the specific function-like thing you were looking at
< 1742708343 498405 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's one of those things that seems to have lots of properties of the same nature as the properties that functions have, but is missing some important ones such as actually being able to evaluate it
< 1742708591 267496 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am reminded of how many properties of odd perfect numbers we know…
< 1742709067 55219 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :My own thinking about category theory, tends to be different from how they are commonly described, in my opinion. A category is commonly described as generalizations of sets, groups, etc; to me it looks like a generalization of monoids, that instead of putting any two elements together they must match and the objects tell you which ones match, and matrix multiplication is an obvious example.
< 1742709106 985879 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Most other explanations of category theory don't usually mention monoids and matrix multiplication right away, as far as I can tell.) This is just as valid but is a different way of how you would think about category theory, it seems.
< 1742709484 619778 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Oh, I'm struggling too. Kan extensions are famously hard to conceptualize because *every* structural concept can be expressed as a Kan extension. I'm going to have to write a type-checker in order to actually hack out any interesting programs.
< 1742709526 988551 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we can have Malbolge, so I don't see why we can't have this too :-)
< 1742709572 595666 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although it has a somewhat different reason behind the difficulty of programming)
< 1742709630 515264 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1742714069 485206 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1742714097 976246 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1742714149 975187 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1742714295 616284 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154370&oldid=153248 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+2097) 10
> 1742714615 910778 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154371&oldid=154370 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+636) 10
< 1742714643 217750 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:e1c2:84b0:caab:9b02 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1742716618 433242 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:e1c2:84b0:caab:9b02 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1742716740 330650 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:e1c2:84b0:caab:9b02 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1742719903 572412 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.73.126.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal
< 1742720599 454196 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
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> 1742726086 776355 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154372&oldid=154371 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1) 10
> 1742726206 161924 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Amethyst/Standard Library14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154373 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+64) 10Created page with "{{Back|Amethyst}}  Amethyst supports several standard libraries."
> 1742726508 339288 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Amethyst/Standard Library/Math14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154374 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+5605) 10Created page with "{{Back|Amethyst/Standard Library}}  
 NAME     math  DESCRIPTION     This module is always available.  It provides access to the     mathematical functions defined by the C standard.  FUNCTIONS     acos(x, /)         Return the arc cosin
> 1742726541 157872 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Amethyst/Standard Library14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154375&oldid=154373 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+37) 10
> 1742726742 704589 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Amethyst/Standard Library/Random14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154376 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+6896) 10Created page with "{{Back|Amethyst/Standard Library}} 
 NAME     random - Random variable generators.  DESCRIPTION         integers         --------                uniform within range          sequences         ---------                pick random eleme
< 1742726747 573235 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi *
> 1742726893 701736 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Amethyst/Standard Library14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154377&oldid=154375 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+39) 10
> 1742726941 157574 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Amethyst14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154378&oldid=154320 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+56) 10
< 1742728728 355112 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: right, so you want to do a conditional move from b to s like if (f < 0) s = b; the compiler had a bad day so it compiles that as s += b - s & f >> 63; then even if b was a capability and s can end up with its value, zzo38's processor can lose track of that and s will be a plain integer (assuming s was nonzero)
< 1742728778 102228 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and this could happen with wordwise operations where s, b, f are multiword vectors
< 1742730787 814666 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah
< 1742731440 477598 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
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> 1742732041 151287 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Woodchuck/Implementation14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154379&oldid=117969 5* 03Rdococ 5* (+125) 10updat's
> 1742732165 471590 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Woodchuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154380&oldid=116711 5* 03Rdococ 5* (-46) 10
< 1742732613 452934 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1742732922 318536 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm optimizing Sea Magic is hard even with known scores to aim for... but I've obtained my 18th box. https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/seamagic.png
< 1742732999 398779 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the best known scores I've collected add up to 19250 points, and only 5 of my level solutions match the corresponding best known score...)
< 1742733026 748915 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, does #esoteric play Veggie quest, the puzzle game where you have to build mazes that take many steps to solve
< 1742733126 235170 :drwiz!~drwiz@user/drwizard JOIN #esolangs drwiz :[https://web.libera.chat] drwiz
< 1742733137 823397 :drwiz!~drwiz@user/drwizard PART :#esolangs
< 1742733174 447240 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh ais523 commented on https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/seamin.png asking about a true minimal score... I suspect that's boring: you finish ice 2 with 115 points, move 1 and slide 1 with 40 points, and 5 more levels without boxes, at which point you have exactly 1000 points and 4 levels left to solve, so you can have all levels solved at 1004 points.
< 1742733234 290498 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I did improve the ice 2 minimal score since the last time I shared that link)
< 1742733317 79361 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had not even heard of Veggie Quest
> 1742739594 101093 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Cycwin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154381&oldid=151862 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+20) 10
> 1742739645 634554 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Cycwin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154382&oldid=154381 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+16) 10
> 1742739758 652893 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154383&oldid=154294 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+76) 10/* PLZ HLP MI */ new section
> 1742740229 969225 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DeadPig14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154384&oldid=101567 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+0) 10
> 1742740659 830491 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Cycwin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154385&oldid=151344 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+216) 10
> 1742740878 217947 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Cycwin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154386&oldid=154385 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+139) 10
> 1742741051 846189 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Cycwin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154387&oldid=154386 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+17) 10/* Just some weird words */
> 1742741493 612655 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Cycwin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154388&oldid=154382 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+99) 10
> 1742741978 350392 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PAL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154389&oldid=154295 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+239) 10
< 1742742262 449484 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.73.126.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
> 1742742306 937391 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PAL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154390&oldid=154389 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+73) 10/* All Functions */
< 1742749013 866686 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcVA8Nj6HEo Quite nice animations of Tromp diagrams.
< 1742749521 894419 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1742749837 777756 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Reflecto14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154391&oldid=153531 5* 03QuantumV 5* (+90) 10add register
< 1742750506 814092 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hm, I haven't worked it out, but I just noticed that lambda calculus can't encode *the* natural numbers on the nose, because there isn't an associated DDS (dynamical discrete system, IIRC?) for them.
< 1742750546 168938 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The best DDS for the nats has one object and one non-trivial arrow; intuitively, the encoding ignores the arrow, traverses it once, traverses twice, etc.
< 1742750606 265112 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But it should also be possible to go around infinitely many times. There should be a way to use a fixed-point combinator to make a Church numeral that loops forever.
< 1742750647 865616 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And since Church numerals are the initial such encoding, all encodings of the natural numbers have a version of this extra infinite number.
> 1742751091 820485 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Funciton14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154392&oldid=154284 5* 03Timwi 5* (+6833) 10Regular expression functionality  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImzcTmB0m0k
> 1742751161 488940 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Funciton14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154393&oldid=154392 5* 03Timwi 5* (+0) 10rearrange
> 1742751249 49892 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Funciton14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154394&oldid=154393 5* 03Timwi 5* (-2) 10fix wrong heading size
> 1742751581 410957 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Funciton14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154395&oldid=154394 5* 03Timwi 5* (+0) 10minor fix
< 1742753587 895285 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1742753885 539629 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: so the lambda calculus can encode an infinite loop, which isn't a natural number – but it can also encode lots of other things that aren't natural numbers
< 1742753934 828717 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Even with a type system, we can't exclude an omega term.
< 1742753936 832830 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :both typed and untyped lambda calculi seem to have their own issues here
< 1742753957 500563 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure either allow you to express "the type of a natural number" without adding it as a primitive
> 1742754014 90048 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Frackit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154396&oldid=151355 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+2406) 10Turing complete
< 1742754018 911452 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Bauer explains why the type I've given before (forall X, (X -> X) -> (X -> X)) is the right one: https://cstheory.stackexchange.com/a/30924
< 1742754052 954512 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :They also hint that this happens for other models, and that the right way to think of it is as a "weak" initiality.
< 1742754059 711858 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah right, a generic typed lambda calculus
< 1742754093 652730 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, doesn't call/cc have a type of that shape?
< 1742754105 202557 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Interestingly, there's a topological object that has more-or-less the set of these lambda terms as its points! It's N∞ the one-point compactification of nats.
< 1742754112 289097 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah no, that's ((X -> X) -> Y) -> X
< 1742754124 176610 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, no, I think I have that wrong
< 1742754137 26124 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :((X -> Y) -> X) -> X
< 1742754150 843922 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And it's known that N∞ ≈ N + 1 only iff LEM, which isn't the case on a computer.
< 1742754165 170644 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Er, LPO, not LEM? I should find that cite.
< 1742754172 239020 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: on the wiki recently we noticed that "the rationals but the denominator can be 0" is an interesting set of numbers
< 1742754198 834596 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, found it, from Past Corbin being a dumbass: https://langdev.stackexchange.com/a/3941
< 1742754220 629414 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because you can cancel numerator and denominator, it's basically Q + 1/0 and 0/0, but 1/0 and 0/0 don't seem meaningfully distinguishable (you have to treat them as the same in order for all the identities you'd want to hold)
< 1742754260 248957 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is one missing field axiom, though, you don't get x * 0 = x
< 1742754267 860497 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, x * 0 = 0
> 1742754297 954563 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Onesharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154397&oldid=151350 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+105) 10
< 1742754306 150470 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Fun. I was recently playing with possibly-empty fields, which have similar issues because they might lack 0 but always require 1.
< 1742754332 57545 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Those don't behave like fields of fractions, but like groups of units which embed into finite fields.
> 1742754459 409139 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NB14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154398&oldid=151115 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+5) 10Not high level, but surely TC
< 1742756158 164295 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION reads about 0⁰

< 1742756182 233252 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :apparently the current mathematical consensus is that it evaluates to 1 if the 0 in the exponent is an integer, but is undefined if the 0 in the exponent is a real number
> 1742757016 122825 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Church numeral14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154399&oldid=150245 5* 03Corbin 5* (+2462) 10Had a thought, chatted on IRC, did some research. Consolidated sources somewhat.
< 1742758083 19298 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It is also 1 in the natural numbers via decategorification of Set (counting arrows 0 → 0), and as a consequence I'm not sure it *can't* be 1 in a semiring
< 1742758124 971616 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I recall reading a paper about how 0⁰ converges to 1 but with branch points; can't recall the title though.
< 1742758331 679978 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :> let { zero f x = x; exp b c = c b } in exp zero zero ("."++) []
< 1742758332 916125 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : "."
< 1742758374 714422 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :> let { three f x = f $ f $ f x; exp b c = c b } in exp three three ("."++) [] -- checking that it's really exponentiation
< 1742758376 240231 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : "..........................."
< 1742758382 332173 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :0⁰ is obviously 1 in Church numerals because if you raise 0 to the power of something, that thing doesn't even get evaluated
< 1742758433 803041 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :^ul (!())(!())^(+)~^S
< 1742758433 873017 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :+
< 1742758445 437204 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :^ul (::**)(::**)^(+)~^S
< 1742758445 465554 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
< 1742758459 714743 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :> let { three f x = f $ f $ f x; exp b c = c . b } in exp three three ("."++) [] -- found it
< 1742758461 89512 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : "........."
< 1742758504 40683 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :> let { zero f x = x; exp b c = c . b } in exp zero zero ("."++) [] -- and this is why I shouldn't live-code
< 1742758505 976221 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : []
< 1742758563 368203 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay there we go. So that's kind of a weird outcome. This shows that the way that we're embedding the nats into e.g. Church numerals *isn't* an embedding of semirings preserving exponentiation.
< 1742758600 420273 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But it does preserve addition and multiplication, more or less. Weird, right? I don't know if this is a side-effect of Tannenbaum or something else.
< 1742758657 762804 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...Wait, I think I'm talking gibberish. Curses.
> 1742758678 787793 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Church numeral14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154400&oldid=154399 5* 03Corbin 5* (+30) 10Fixed conventions and grammar. Gave it an out-loud test.
< 1742758708 180079 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ignore me as I do not know anything about numbers.
< 1742758725 125206 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I think, above, you defined a multiplication function named "exp"
< 1742758744 645104 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think so, yeah. I'm pretty bad at Haskell.
< 1742758761 663442 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's why I was doing the same thing in Underload, which I'm very used to
< 1742758779 113740 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not great at Haskell and was mentally translating into Underload to verify it
< 1742758898 979695 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hehe
< 1742759175 989331 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, it was right the first time. Moreover it's got a cool hint of the underlying categorification; `exp zero zero` hand-reduces to id.
< 1742759277 958246 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :^ul ((r)S:^):^
< 1742759277 986965 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ...too much output!
< 1742759377 598707 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unlambda would be easier to write in a readable way if it had the rule that whitespace is a no-op statement like in brainfuck
< 1742759391 141933 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you don't need to ( )! to write a comment
< 1742759455 645788 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm used to Nix, for which there's not a bot. Something like `let three = f: x: f (f (f x)); exp = b: c: c b; in exp three three`
< 1742759621 718913 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :teach it to HackEso?
< 1742759625 137775 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what is Nix?
< 1742759682 260849 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this Nex? https://esolangs.org/wiki/Nix
< 1742759689 235221 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :doesn't look like what you're referring to
< 1742759724 390433 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Nix is a sort of mix of Haskell and JSON. Its reference implementation is equipped with capability-aware storage. It's used to build packages for GNU/Linux systems, mostly.
< 1742759777 528291 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nix_(package_manager) I think that this could use an eso-first treatment. People have written arithmetic, text tools, parsers, etc. in pure Nix.
< 1742759794 243630 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is the product of two single-precision IEEE floats always exactly representable as a double-precision IEEE float?
< 1742759810 965584 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I was aware of Nix the package manager but didn't realise it was an esolang
< 1742759812 747930 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I broke ground on a fast JIT-oriented version of Nix but got zero community buy-in.
< 1742759818 462073 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it does make sense, though, given the Sudoku solver in apt
< 1742759841 563024 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Perhaps you've heard folks mention "NEL" or "Nix expression language".
< 1742759868 3058 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(which isn't even really an abuse of apt – apt's entire job, other than downloading packages from the Internet, is to resolve dependencies and conflicts, and that's pretty much what Sudoku is)
< 1742759907 55786 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: no, I've only seen it mentioned as a package manager
< 1742759922 587809 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's basically an ML! It tastes like Haskell but without custom operators. It's not like HCL, the language in Packer or Terraform, which is not really up to general-purpose computation.
< 1742759930 364393 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :^ul (((d)S)((b)S))(( )S~:^*a~^^a*~:^):^( strings with Fibonacci lengths )!
< 1742759930 409963 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs : b d db dbd dbddb dbddbdbd dbddbdbddbddb dbddbdbddbddbdbddbdbd dbddbdbddbddbdbddbdbddbddbdbddbddb dbddbdbddbddbdbddbdbddbddbdbddbddbdbddbdbddbddbdbddbdbd dbddbdbddbddbdbddbdbddbddbdbddbddbdbddbdbddbddbdbddbdbddbddbdbddbddbdbddbdbddbddbdbddbddb dbddbdbddbddbdbddbdbddbddbdbddbddbdbddbdbddbddbdbddbdbddbddbdbddbddbdbddbdbddbdd ...too much output!
< 1742760079 776960 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://github.com/milahu/nix-yaml/blob/main/from-yaml.nix is a decent example of what folks get up to when they're still trying to be productive. Nix has JSON import and export but not YAML.
< 1742760138 846642 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: good question about the floating point, that might actually be true
< 1742760280 497729 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think JSON and YAML both have some problems and are not really the best kind of formats. It would depend what you are doing with it, but generally they aren't very good, I think.
< 1742760286 142808 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had heard of NixOS before, though.
< 1742760295 54915 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Curiously, we (nixpkgs) don't really use constraint-solving or other search. Instead, we work manually to holistically curate sets of packages which work together. Kind of like generalized Stackage or locked crates.
< 1742760321 539146 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :TBH we don't do much computation at all. It's an open secret that Nix is only slow to evaluate because the reference implementation is a C++ tree-walking interpreter.
< 1742760417 811169 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: Nix mostly has it for configuring packages that are going to be built. It also can write XML, but not read it; Nix needs to be able to instruct Maven but not load from it.
< 1742760675 386712 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :XML is usually worse (but there are some things that XML is better for). Still, some programs will need to use JSON, XML, and other formats. (I think YAML is a superset of JSON; if that is how it works then it should not be necessary to write YAML unless you need extensible data types other than those in JSON.)
< 1742760709 43582 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I think YAML isn't really very good either though, actually)
< 1742760724 392592 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sadly, no: https://john-millikin.com/json-is-not-a-yaml-subset
< 1742760765 565108 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :YAML should be avoided. If an endpoint accepts both JSON and YAML, set application/json and read their docs; this helps with generating configuration for e.g. k8s.
< 1742760786 78844 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I vaguely remember changes that were made to YAML in an attempt to make it a true JSON superset, but they may not have been successful
< 1742760804 279824 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :O, now I see the problem, with "1e2".
< 1742760848 593482 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, the article you linked says that you need a declaration to use the strict-superset mode (for backwards compatibility) but JSON documents won't have it
< 1742760892 433934 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess there could be an API that defines its input as "YAML 1.2 without the header" – such an API would probably accept JSON too
< 1742760904 810712 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Another variant would be PostScript notation. However, the binary format of PostScript does not have numbers longer than 32-bits and cannot store key/value lists (these are not problems with using the text format).
< 1742760942 882640 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw, for YAMLish text formats, I think the best approach is probably for unquoted identifiers to be treated as enum variants (and you could plausibly define bool as an enum of true and false)
< 1742760949 733719 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, that would probably need a schema to work well
< 1742761022 28955 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Something I use in some of my programs more recently (since I wrote a library to use it) is DER (actually it is a minor variant that adds a few new types and does not use some of the standard types, but this does not affect the framing at all and is still compatible with X.509 and other existing schemas). This is a binary format; for text I invented the format TER which can be converted to DER.
< 1742761093 483833 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(if I want to write underload more complicated than that I'd probably have to write a compiler)
< 1742761095 533926 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think there are basically two types of format that are useful for this sort of thing: interchange formats which should probably be binary, and text formats designed for humans to read and write
< 1742761156 322919 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and both benefit from a schema – the former because it allows the format to take up fewer bytes, and the latter to catch usage errors
< 1742761212 778514 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(In PostScript, the binary format and the text format are actually the same format, so they can be mixed together in the same file.)
< 1742761338 218442 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do believe you that text formats and binary formats are both useful, for such purposes (and others).
< 1742761422 105830 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am not sure that a good solution for linking documents to schemas has been invented, yet
< 1742761437 475711 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :XML uses an URL near the start of the document, but this has lead to problems and is probably not a good solution
< 1742761464 592773 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I wonder if using the hash of a schema might make sense? especially if the schema format is such that only one sequence of bytes can describe any given schema
< 1742761755 446165 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Possibly, if it has a canonical format. DER is already canonical format though, while canonical JSON is more complicated.
< 1742762025 863752 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it would need to be canonical not just in the encoding, but in the way it was represented (e.g. if there is a list whose order does not matter, it would need to be sorted)
< 1742762027 422118 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(One problem with JSON and many other formats is their expectation to use Unicode; this means that non-Unicode data must be encoded as base64 or something else like that and just makes it less efficient, and can make it difficult. There is also a problem with numbers, but that depends on the implementation.)
< 1742762062 780287 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: DER already specifies that if there a list whose order does not matter (called a "set", although it is actually more like a multiset), then it is sorted.
< 1742762222 436275 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, I was wondering how this related to ASN.1, but it turns out to be a subset of it
< 1742762589 423898 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :If my variant of DER is used, then it can actually store a superset of the data that JSON can store (my variant adds a key/value list type), although this is not really the best way to use DER, it at least demonstrates that it is possible. I wrote a program to do this conversion (although it does not fully validate it).
< 1742762626 32764 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what tag class is your key/value list?
< 1742762626 435419 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :python3 has dictionaries that preserve insertion order of the elements and you can iterate them in that order. that's often very convenient for sets whose order don't matter, resulting in an order that's easy to understand when I inspect results. at other times I need an explicit sort for a convenient order, and I have written custom sort functions for that.
< 1742762652 192441 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: quite a few languages have order-preserving dictionaries, I think
< 1742762668 391751 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perhaps for the same reason
< 1742762672 422797 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it strikes me as a bit of an awkward type, it's storing extra data it usually doesn't need to
< 1742762728 202702 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it would make sense for a golfing language, though, I guess
< 1742762733 131962 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Universal, which isn't really supposed to be used unless ITU does it, but this is deliberately nonstandard ASN.1 which adds some new universal types (starting at 64 to make it unlikely to conflict).
< 1742762733 315538 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :especially as you can type-pun it with a list of pairs
< 1742762761 979570 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: I think if I were doing something similar I would encode it as private
< 1742762765 716883 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :The program is https://raw.githubusercontent.com/zzo38/scorpion/refs/heads/trunk/asn1/jsontoder.c and if you use a program such as "dumpasn1" or "openssl asn1parse -inform der" then it will be able to read the output of that program. It cannot recognize the key/value list type but would still be able to display the contents of he key/value list.
< 1742762787 202771 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :with terminal control code encodings, some of the private-use encodings have become de-facto standards but are still in the private-use range
< 1742763129 377741 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-8CFD-6D82-5C18-8C9-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
< 1742763142 204199 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, I know that is the case with terminal control codes.
< 1742763489 542551 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2101-99D0-8CFD-6D82-5C18-8C9-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1742763491 818802 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(A problem I had seen in many libraries for dealing with DER (although not my own one) is the insistence of converting OIDs to decimal even when doing so is unnecessary (and it usually is unnecessary). If you merely want to validate it, this can be done more efficiently.)
< 1742763635 542042 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523, b_jonas: You won't hear the history of Python ordered dicts from the CPython community.
< 1742763727 303847 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :They were first prototyped in PyPy, and they were only ordered as a side-effect of the implementation. The main goals were to be smaller and faster than standard hash tables.
< 1742763766 353453 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fijal explains better than I can: https://pypy.org/posts/2015/01/faster-more-memory-efficient-and-more-4096950404745375390.html
< 1742763772 243634 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one thing I hate is how that in practice, hash tables often spend so much time hashing that they negate the benefit form actually being a hash table
< 1742763791 536386 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I normally use B+ trees in practice unless I know that the table is likely to get very large
> 1742763906 643157 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154401&oldid=154360 5* 03Buckets 5* (+29) 10
< 1742763910 806940 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If it gets to that, I normally reach for something that can do stream processing. SQLite usually, sometimes jq.
< 1742763918 423535 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, PyPy's dictionaries are a bit interesting – they're basically a normal hash table where the entries are boxed using a bump allocator, so you can determine the insertion order via looking at the addresses they were allocated at
< 1742763938 414058 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the tradeoff is that deletion becomes amortized O(1) rather than true O(1)
> 1742763950 302203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154402&oldid=154336 5* 03Buckets 5* (+11) 10
> 1742763965 96784 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MemeS14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154403 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1056) 10Created page with "MemeS is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2021.  MemeS has no fixed Commands, They would Automatically change to The Most relevant memes at that time Of Year, month, day, hour, Minute, second, femtosecond. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands 
< 1742763968 934582 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I like that analogy. It's totally a bump allocator.
< 1742764060 300815 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it's different from a typical ordered dictionary in that if you update a value without changing the key, the order doesn't change
< 1742764192 350886 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. In that sense, the capability to iterate over an ordered dict can be used to gain knowledge about the dict and provoke non-deterministic behavior, and it's actually kind of problematic compared to e.g. a weak-value mapping without iteration (JS "WeakMap").
< 1742764502 56413 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :For making trees in C, there is tsearch and the related functions, but it does not seem to have the way to take advantage of the existing tree structure when you want to read the tree from a file or write the tree to a file (in order to avoid having to reconstruct the tree from the start again when reading it back).
< 1742764586 49970 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Another issue is with the examples, that they will make a heap allocation and then free it if the record already exists, but I think it seems better to make a stack allocation and then replace it with a heap allocation if the record does not already exist, which seems like it would be more efficient, to me. My own programs do use a stack allocation like that.)
> 1742764599 929263 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esorn14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154404&oldid=154339 5* 03Buckets 5* (+2) 10
> 1742768296 975714 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zudjn14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154405&oldid=154357 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+19) 10It has no loops and finite memory
> 1742770735 957153 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NOR Machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154406&oldid=150840 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+19) 10
< 1742772710 867882 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1742772725 687807 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
> 1742772939 334724 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PAL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154407&oldid=154390 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-313) 10
> 1742773128 519204 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fontmess14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154408&oldid=154316 5* 03Buckets 5* (-364) 10
> 1742774311 626883 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Neucomp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154409&oldid=127696 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+763) 10Rectified the cat program and Truth Machine examples, introduced as a further example a looping counter, rectified several orthographic mistakes, and improved the formatting.
> 1742774429 666898 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Neucomp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154410&oldid=154409 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+233) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the Neucomp programming language on GitHub and supplemented the several page category tags.
< 1742774490 166537 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :G'Night
< 1742774643 918003 :mtm!~textual@47-202-75-129.fdr01.sprg.fl.ip.frontiernet.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1742774741 893441 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
< 1742776779 945042 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :To deal with what is apparently the LLM scrapers, I set up port knocking for the HTTP server, by usig iptables. (The other services do not use port knocking.) However, this requires that you know which port to knock, but automated scrapers are unlikely to know that automatically, so it should still help. Manually accessing it will work.
< 1742777311 159155 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's a fun idea. Hope it works.
< 1742777383 301836 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have a scrawled note that I think reads "nginx: leaky bucket" and I think is for my side business. Still, worth mentioning: rate-limiting in httpd?
< 1742777667 49556 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :The connections usually use different IP addresses per connection, so rate-limiting probably will not help very well.
< 1742777740 448796 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Perhaps I should mention in the gopher and/or scorpion servers, a file that mentions what port number to use for port knocking. (Some of the wrong port numbers which are not otherwise used will lock you out until you use the correct one, in order to avoid someone accessing it by accident when using port scanning.)
< 1742779435 328606 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: that might be a good idea if the HTTP server isn't intended for use by the general public
< 1742779446 159803 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it wouldn't work for a website that you'd want anyone to be able to visit
< 1742779486 130545 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: one of the most persistent LLM scrapers uses a different IP address for every connection
< 1742779568 427405 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it strikes me that that behaviour might be exploitable somehow, although the details would probably depend on how the bots set the referer
< 1742779583 543113 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Ah, that's right. So this sticky note must have been for me.
< 1742779742 48031 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :somewhere I saw someone suggest serving Markov chains to suspected LLM scrapers – they may not be able to easily distinguish them from useful training data
< 1742779831 618793 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This is HTTP, right? No TLS? There's a pile of techniques to slow down fresh TLS handshakes, serving as kind of a gentle captcha, that would punish fresh user agents.
< 1742779852 7158 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Er, not a captcha. A hashcash? We need better generic names for these.
< 1742779880 74670 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are quite a few proof-of-work-based systems being deployed at the moment, but those have the side effect of preventing people without JS accessing the sites
< 1742779895 316394 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :doing it in TLS rather than JS is an interesting idea
< 1742779918 430247 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was going to say that TLS is PoW~
< 1742779954 366476 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't really like proof-of-work though a) due to the energy consumption, b) connecting from lots of different IPs means the scrapers probably have lots of different computers so it's likely to hurt them less than it hurts legitimate users
< 1742780000 796461 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, now I'm thinking about browser fingerprinting
< 1742780006 875160 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't remember the details offhand. I'd have to look it up. The idea is to invert the advice for stapling certs and disabling OSCP and etc. so that clients do a minimum of trips, *and* put a small-but-real delay between each part of the handshake.
< 1742780011 643413 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1742780032 286715 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was thinking a while ago that instead of trying to prevent fingerprinting by making all the browsers look the same, you could prevent it by randomizing as much of the fingerprint as possible so that sites think you're a unique user each tiee
< 1742780064 487312 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: ooh, that's different from proof-of-work, I think; if your round-trips are slow then it slows down connections but most of that time is spent sleeping
< 1742780074 871517 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Kind of like how, during the American Prohibition when drinking alcohol was generally banned, grocers would sell bricks of compressed vinegar must with instructions, "do *not* let this sit in water in a cabinet for two weeks, or it might go *bad* and turn into wine"
< 1742780107 156646 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it wouldn't surprise me if the scrapers didn't validate the certificate properly, but that might also be a way to detect them
< 1742780108 44693 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot JOIN #esolangs lambdabot :Lambda_Robots:_100%_Loyal
< 1742780113 962692 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: You can make the client either wait for the entire handshake or recommit a bit of compute each time in order to generate a new pubkey. I'm not finding the details offhand.
< 1742780123 258557 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :@bot
< 1742780123 287111 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs ::)
< 1742780185 113760 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I have recently seen "powxy" which displays instructions for what you need to calculate, but also includes a JavaScript code to automatically do so, so that you can also make your own implementation, so that JavaScripts is not required.
< 1742780212 437560 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Everybody's talking about TLS fingerprinting, which is another thing that can't be skipped on HTTPS. With that, e.g. CloudFlare can force scrapers to wait for the handshake *and* generate a new key per new IP/client.
< 1742780215 803859 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have also seen others, such as Anubis (which seems to bypass the requirement for JavaScripts if your user-agent string does not contain "Mozilla", e.g. if you are using Lynx).
< 1742780259 6272 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I wonder whether search engines are going to be in trouble in a year or two
< 1742780273 407115 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because all the anti-LLM-scraping stuff is likely to affect search engine crawlers as collateral damage
> 1742780284 718381 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Woodchuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154411&oldid=154380 5* 03Rdococ 5* (+57) 10
< 1742780312 166353 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that could be a reason to bypass the JS requirement for weird user-agent strings – most search engine crawlers do at least one crawl with a clear user-agent that doesn't look anything like a browser user-agent
< 1742780330 596639 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(some repeat the crawl with a browser user agent, though, to detect sites that are serving them different content ffrom regular users)
< 1742780335 122282 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I personally do not mind if search engine crawlers cannot access them.
< 1742780467 488878 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1742780557 324540 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :In my case, the HTTP server does contain stuff that is useful for many people, but some of the files are available on the other protocols and/or external servers (e.g. GitHub) as well, anyways. But, someone could also manually access it by using the port knocking.
< 1742780719 612168 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :My server has no TLS, but that is because I had not set it up, yet. Even if I do set it up, I do not intend to disallow unencrypted connections.
< 1742780834 464913 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I also intend to eventually set up TLS on the scorpion server (which will be useful for clients who want encryption, but also in case some files will require X.509 authentication), and when it is, both encrypted and unecrypted connections will be supported (although you will need to use TLS if you want X.509 authentication).)
< 1742780930 437746 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu JOIN #esolangs int-e :Bertram
< 1742780934 814482 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, wait, you're not fizzie. Sorry, I thought this was about the recent pressure on the wiki.
< 1742781023 940953 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :port knocking for a public web server would be... interesting
< 1742781307 14806 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, what about this – if someone connects from an IP address the server hasn't seen recently, have the page soft-redirect to itself – that way legitimate users get the page quickly but connect-from-lots-of-different-IPs bots get stuck in a redirect loop
< 1742781313 326250 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :depending on how the bots work, even a meta refresh might work
< 1742781321 908243 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I expect the esolang wiki probably is affected by this LLM-scraping too (apparently a lot of HTTP(S) servers are), but whoever manages that will have to deal with it.
< 1742781338 884623 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the "to itself" could be to a duplicate page)
< 1742781359 162922 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: we've been mitigating it by restricting access to pages that exist in quantity, like diff pages
< 1742781368 639491 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in a way that hopefully won't affect too many legitimate users
< 1742781419 357662 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(all the protections are disabled for people with login cookies, as the bots don't have accounts, so logging in is a way to work around a false positive)
< 1742781661 410893 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you're talking about the wiki, it just dawned on me that while I had the cookie exemption for the manually built "sus IP" list rate-limiting, I didn't actually apply it to the current diff-page block. Should probably have done that.
< 1742781737 736346 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there must surely be a complete list of IPs the LLM scraper is using, by now
< 1742781766 384458 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it would be quite long but it'll only be a small proportion of the whole IPv4 space
< 1742781769 894617 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's also only blocking access to diff pages where the CGI query parameters are in a different order than how the MediaWiki HTML links have them, which sounds like it shouldn't work, but did.
< 1742781804 16170 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it hasn't worked at some other wikis – I wonder why it works at ours? maybe there are two different scrapers
< 1742781812 649697 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: That is a reasonable idea, but I wonder if they might change later due to dynamic IP addresses that may be reassigned later.
< 1742781840 556186 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually I'm wondering whether it alphabetises query parameters on all websites, or something like that
< 1742781850 366424 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perhaps to avoid crawling the same page twice
< 1742781854 246237 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh the order thing is funny
< 1742781894 438789 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Actually looking at the wiki-server CPU usage for the last 2d, looks like it's probably not working so good any more: https://zem.fi/tmp/cpu.png
< 1742781915 86212 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :gah
< 1742781937 927086 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ugh
< 1742781968 6337 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so my theory now is that it's the same bot that fixed a bug that caused it to change query parameter order
< 1742781980 760053 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, it's hack.esolangs.org now: https://zem.fi/tmp/req.png
< 1742781995 403059 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :So that's the Mercurial repo, which I don't have any specific rules about.
< 1742782009 31207 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(But it can also do expensive diffs.)
< 1742782014 505771 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, different website, same server
< 1742782026 906781 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :how often is that one used legitimately by humans?
< 1742782119 20480 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Only when people get inspired to play around with the bot, I imagine. (Which doesn't happen particularly frequently these days.)
< 1742782205 706192 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :On a cursory glance, this current burst of scraping is all from Alibaba Cloud LLC's IPv4 ranges, which probably means no human users.
< 1742782225 344634 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, this is messed up... spammer submitting an email pretending to be my mail server (including spoofing reverse DNS), failing the SPF check, and the bounce ends up... in my mailbox.
< 1742782258 166378 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: can probably block those, I suspect
< 1742782320 414337 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, not sure about the reverse DNS spoof.
< 1742782416 936198 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah. No, I'm reading this all wrong.
< 1742782500 229377 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :They're just faking a failed email delivery. So the bounce *is* the original spam message, as far as I am concerned. So just a misconfigured mail server that accepts emails for third parties so it effectively is a weird open relay.
< 1742782684 311602 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Added Alibaba Cloud to the "one request every two seconds from any of these addresses in total unless esolang_wikiUserName cookie is set" list. (The cookie exemption doesn't really make sense for hack.esolangs.org since it will never be present there, but it was easier.)
< 1742782954 374963 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Definitely a different scraper though. The previous one had what looked like a large selection of common user agents. These requests have just one user agent, so I could've potentially also used that for blocking this time.
< 1742782964 216122 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Said UA being: "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/114.0.0.0 Safari/537.36 Edg/114.0.1823.43"
< 1742782973 915176 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think "Edg" is an actual browser.
< 1742782996 119377 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hack. is mostly interesting for IRC users anyway, so whoever runs into that can complain here?
< 1742783101 969333 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: and I don't think any legitimate browser claims to be Safari and Edge simultaneously?
< 1742783111 334441 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I notice on my own HTTP server logs also many say "Edg", but they use many different user-agent strings, some of which do not say "Edg" but all of which contain "Mozilla".
< 1742783183 228037 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It was a surprise to me, but allegedly that's the real user agent from the Chromium-based version of Edge.
< 1742783249 717412 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(With "Edg/" and "Safari/" both.)
< 1742783307 947346 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The "Chrome/X Safari/Y" part is from Chrome, and they tag on that "Edg/" on top of it.)
< 1742783313 811692 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :User agents are so silly.
< 1742783397 161430 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe Microsoft wanted to save a byte
< 1742783417 611328 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am reminded of the story of Google making significant savings from removing the  at the end of their homepage
< 1742784052 781209 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1742784068 546506 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Using Edg subverts configuration that actually match Edge and serve different contents based on that.
< 1742784098 466747 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel that's a more likely desire than saving a byte (mostly on the user's side).
< 1742784131 982627 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :A bit like skipping Windows 9.
< 1742784179 626370 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: but wouldn't sites that wanted to detect Edge just look for "Edg"?
< 1742784179 841466 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the idea there being that it's the common prefix of Windows 95 and Windows 98)
< 1742784205 374690 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: well they can do that now, but why would they do that before the Chromium switch?
< 1742784246 589329 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that they used "Edge" before switching to Chromium.
< 1742784259 30481 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's not really a browser brand that I care about ;)
< 1742784263 535097 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I believe they did, yes.
> 1742784313 67515 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fn14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154412 5* 03C0ffee 5* (+335) 10Created page with "{{lowercase}} '''fn''' is a programming language.  ==Functions== {| class="wikitable" |- ! Function !! Description |- | 0 || 0 |- | s(a) || return a+1 |- | i(a,b) || set the a-th memory value to b |- | d(a,b) || return b |- | w(a,b) || execute b while the a-th memory value |- 
< 1742784337 590924 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :On an unrelated note: my IPv6 network trouble (home <-> DigitalOcean VPS) continues, they just sent a "we've not heard back from the engineering team yet" update, but it's the weirdest thing, while ICMP pings still get address-unreachable from the intermediate Internet access point (LONAP), and TCP connections go nowhere, my custom port-knocking utility (which does it over both v4 and v6) reports
> 1742784339 212851 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:C0ffee14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154413&oldid=153711 5* 03C0ffee 5* (+12) 10
< 1742784339 784019 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :success on both.
< 1742784344 193765 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe it's just some misleading output though. Can't see why that specifically would work when nothing else does.
< 1742784395 406786 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The knocking does a TCP handshake with a specific TCP MSS value, so I guess hypothetically that *could* maybe affect the routing somehow. Seems unlikely though.
< 1742784948 663595 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: oh, I see, it's to distinguish Edge using Microsoft's engine from Edge using Chromium
> 1742785214 751851 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fn14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154414&oldid=154412 5* 03C0ffee 5* (+3522) 10
> 1742785448 527592 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fn14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154415&oldid=154414 5* 03C0ffee 5* (+69) 10
< 1742785989 404059 :drwiz!~drwiz@user/drwizard JOIN #esolangs drwiz :[https://web.libera.chat] drwiz
< 1742786527 918053 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1742786874 548600 :drwiz!~drwiz@user/drwizard QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1742787453 778026 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.73.126.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :
> 1742791432 63552 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StackBBQ2+14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154416 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+202) 10Created page with "StackBBQ2+ is a language designed by islptng to compile to StackBBQ.  == Commands == {|class="wikitable" ! Command !! Compile into !! Explanation |- | 1 || 1 || Push 1 |- | 0 || 1110 || Push 0 |}"
> 1742791750 971882 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StackBBQ2+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154417&oldid=154416 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+318) 10
> 1742791864 510112 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StackBBQ2+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154418&oldid=154417 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+51) 10
> 1742792299 254171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StackBBQ2+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154419&oldid=154418 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+461) 10
> 1742792370 517689 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StackBBQ2+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154420&oldid=154419 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+13) 10
> 1742792589 127135 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StackBBQ2+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154421&oldid=154420 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+28) 10
> 1742793074 194148 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078 bits, 6 bytes14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154422 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+312) 10Created page with "It was designed for a 8-bit computer which has 6 registers.  You can write 256 instructions at 1 time. 
 0~63: reg[0] = instruction 64-127 64+a: reg[3] = reg[2] [NAND,OR,AND,NOR,+,-][a] reg[1] 128~191 128+8a+b: reg[b] = reg[a] 192~255 192+a: if reg[3] [F
< 1742799221 480886 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1742800493 415987 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1742800542 457722 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1742800576 545947 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1742801556 117625 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1742805472 445820 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:JIT14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154423&oldid=154293 5* 03JIT 5* (+44) 10
> 1742806334 635819 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Non-Plushie-complete14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154424&oldid=154235 5* 03JIT 5* (+17) 10
> 1742806420 36637 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Long14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154425&oldid=101854 5* 03JIT 5* (+9) 10
< 1742808088 945499 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if the scrapers are using new IPs all the time, you could just slow down replies to connections from new IPs with a delay instead of a redirect, that would be less annoying to legitimate users
< 1742808235 187743 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that only reduces CPU load if the scrapers are "impatient"?
< 1742808260 150941 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or if you think that they have a sequential backend somewhere I suppose
< 1742808281 51407 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or would that be a frontend ;)
< 1742808325 105528 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you mean they'd send you requests just as fast? maybe
< 1742808422 528485 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean I don't know, but I think that's likely
< 1742814382 526953 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :FTR, while the rate limiting of Alibaba Cloud (returning 429 immediately) _worked_ in terms of CPU use, it also made them peak at 80 reqs/s there for an hour, I imagine because the failed requests were taking less time to complete.
< 1742814397 673040 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Nothing in the last 6 hours though, so maybe they gave up.
< 1742814529 692092 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, "nothing" isn't exactly right, it's still going on with an almost exactly 50% error rate, so they're still sending on average one request per second, half of which fail.
< 1742814594 28656 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm sure getting a diff of /interps/clc-intercal/CLC-INTERCAL-UI-Cursers-1.-94.-2/META.yml was incredibly useful to whoever's behind it.
< 1742816740 642723 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://zem.fi/tmp/errors.png <- that almost even looks like some sort of a feedback mechanism.
< 1742816914 215915 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1742817073 774783 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: I don't understand, what causes the 50% failure rate? did you make the webserver on your side refuse every other request from new IPs?
< 1742817378 604947 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :No, it's a rate limit I added for the previous scraping. It allows at most 0.5 requests/second from any IP from the "likely bad scraper" list (excluding any that have a `esolang_wikiUserName` cookie set), returning a HTTP 429 for the excess. Like, globally, not per-IP or anything. I just added that Alibaba Cloud network to the list of IPs.
< 1742817459 288558 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :So it _could_ look like that because they have some mechanism of dialing back the per-site scraping rate based on failures. (Or for some other reason that I didn't think of.)
< 1742817754 440933 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1742817968 254300 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
< 1742818188 297550 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's good. that's why I recommended adding a delay to responses, say three seconds of delay for first request from any IP address.  if they implemented flow control well then that should also slow their requests down.
< 1742818215 840585 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it's less annoying than failures for legitimate users.
< 1742818246 376347 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but then failures for very fast requests also makes sense.
< 1742818285 161164 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1742818315 658420 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: there's the fallacy of measuring programmer productivity in lines of code produced; maybe we're seeing a similar fallacy that measures scrapers in number of unique (by URL) pages fetched.
< 1742818483 216315 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1742818822 595923 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1742818871 714218 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1742819951 328547 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1742820266 435470 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, I may have been a little too optimistic about how smart(/polite) they're being: https://zem.fi/tmp/errors2.png
< 1742820348 581295 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :your earlier CPU graph https://zem.fi/tmp/cpu.png showed that activity varies quite heavily over time
< 1742820381 675862 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's weird, it's annoying, and I'm not even dealing with it...
< 1742820525 539984 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :At work these sort of charts would of course be a roundoff error, the esolangs.org infrastructure is just... a bit more modest in scale.
< 1742820528 465140 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know what we'd do if we became an actually popular website somehow, but fortunately that doesn't seem all that likely.
< 1742820661 224929 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1742820673 554322 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: that plot is strange, it seems to say that the requests aren't for the wiki
< 1742820684 379939 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that is https://zem.fi/tmp/errors2.png top half
< 1742820719 545782 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh! I didn't pay attention to the colors
< 1742820824 359736 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Haha. "There are certain things here." -- I'm not sure if I've ever looked at https://hack.esolangs.org/
< 1742820843 243797 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :They're not, they're for hack.esolangs.org/repo URLs this time. (I've also clicked on hack.esolangs.org on both charts to hide the other lines for clarity.)
< 1742820876 8817 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway, the repo is also prone to https://xkcd.com/609/ (Tab Explosion)
< 1742820920 106949 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(except that if you're human you'll realize that most of the potential explosion is redundant and boring)
< 1742820967 479406 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but weren't they getting all pairwise diffs between revisions on wiki pages? isn't that what generated lots of pointless URLs?
< 1742821035 764475 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :That was the previous incident. The hack.esolangs.org repo browser is pretty similar, you can also ask it for all past versions and blame (annotate) views and diffs and such.
< 1742821037 731821 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can browse all revisions of the hackeso repo too (revisions * number of files) so that's a lot
< 1742821055 476723 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see
< 1742821077 45999 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm I don't know whether there are arbitrary diffs between revisions or just from one to the next
< 1742821087 806480 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it never came up :)
< 1742821116 326170 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, probably just the latter
< 1742821124 296719 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and maybe diffs with current version
< 1742821132 471508 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :because the default interface has links to those
< 1742821139 221032 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, yes, it's possible it can only do diff views one commit at a time. But you can definitely browse the entire tree at any revision.
< 1742821322 208299 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've got a https://hack.esolangs.org/robots.txt file that attempts (successfully or not) to express "allow indexing the tip but nothing else". Not that these clients respect or even look at robots.txt.
< 1742821537 11261 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder... if you put a Disallow: /nowhere/ line in there, will that results in the bots trying to fetch /nowhere/
< 1742821542 860515 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :-s
< 1742821588 883445 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(not really a meaningful experiment; it probably won't even work as a honeypot)
< 1742822442 961714 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
> 1742822932 75608 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Mahdoosh1 5*  10New user account
> 1742823386 146460 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154426&oldid=154321 5* 03Mahdoosh1 5* (+179) 10sss
> 1742824125 687969 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154427&oldid=150037 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+41) 10
< 1742824524 132609 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
> 1742825046 295308 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154428&oldid=154132 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+76) 10
> 1742825060 451028 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154429&oldid=154428 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-76) 10
> 1742825090 626386 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154430&oldid=154298 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+100) 10
< 1742825552 259988 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1742827878 215338 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
> 1742828028 71071 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Neucomp14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154431&oldid=154410 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+341) 10Supplemented scholia to the Looping Counter example program.
> 1742828559 766446 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 overwrite10 02 5* 0347 5*  10uploaded a new version of "[[02File:My github profile read me.png10]]"
> 1742829062 363214 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154433&oldid=154430 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-1) 10
< 1742830606 22818 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1742830993 195280 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :maeve (she/her)
< 1742832170 215502 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1742832184 723572 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`olist 1321
< 1742832187 532218 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :olist : shachaf oerjan Sgeo boily nortti b_jonas Noisytoot
> 1742833269 995460 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Quito056714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154434&oldid=132090 5* 03Quito0567alt 5* (-5) 10
> 1742833346 150668 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Quito056714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154435&oldid=154434 5* 03Quito0567alt 5* (+154) 10
< 1742836036 898012 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
> 1742836877 652256 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:TheEyeOfAr3s14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154436&oldid=106040 5* 03TheEyeOfAr3s 5* (-98) 10Removed dead project
< 1742837669 636005 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1742839482 429593 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1742841407 244990 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :maeve (she/her)
< 1742842888 429578 :galactum!~galactum@86.122.50.230 JOIN #esolangs * :galactum
< 1742844231 979384 :galactum!~galactum@86.122.50.230 PRIVMSG #esolangs :does anyone here have a particular favorite esolang?
< 1742844241 306439 :galactum!~galactum@86.122.50.230 PRIVMSG #esolangs :mine is probably forte right now
< 1742844966 87106 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :galactum: I don't have a favorite, but if you want to browse among interesting ones and https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Random takes you to boring pages the you can try to look at https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:B_jonas/List where I list most of the interesting esolangs that we have articles about and that I encountered
< 1742847727 236427 :galactum!~galactum@86.122.50.230 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 4.5.2
> 1742847971 718007 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sigma14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154437 5* 03Stysan 5* (+613) 10Created page with "Sigma is a language by [[User:Stysan]], *kinda*. This is because it's [[Python]], but with Greek letters.  {| class="wikitable sortable" |+ Letters |- ! Latin !! Greek |- | a ||  |- | b ||  |- | c ||  |- | d ||  |- | e ||  |- | f ||  |- | g ||  |- | h ||  |- | i ||  |- | j 
> 1742847989 565702 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sigma14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154438&oldid=154437 5* 03Stysan 5* (+0) 10
> 1742848003 546482 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sigma14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154439&oldid=154438 5* 03Stysan 5* (+4) 10
> 1742848011 708426 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154440&oldid=154401 5* 03Buckets 5* (+91) 10
> 1742848054 730429 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154441&oldid=154402 5* 03Buckets 5* (+90) 10
> 1742848065 602015 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kcufniarb14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154442 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1183) 10Created page with "{{lowercase}} {{wrongtitle|title=brainfuck}} brainfuck is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2022. {| class="
> 1742848941 891441 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esorn14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154443&oldid=154404 5* 03Buckets 5* (+0) 10
> 1742849103 162824 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07G Sharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154444&oldid=152430 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+19) 10/* Variables */
> 1742849210 615720 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07G Sharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154445&oldid=154444 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+29) 10/* Variables */
> 1742849264 53995 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07G Sharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154446&oldid=154445 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+50) 10/* Variables */
> 1742849415 919009 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07G Sharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154447&oldid=154446 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+46) 10/* Variables */
> 1742849448 648231 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07G Sharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154448&oldid=154447 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+7) 10/* Variables */
> 1742849490 735738 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07G Sharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154449&oldid=154448 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-9) 10/* Variables */
> 1742849621 237855 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07G Sharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154450&oldid=154449 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-43) 10/* Commands */
> 1742849653 60612 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07G Sharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154451&oldid=154450 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+2) 10/* Classes */
> 1742849716 964357 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07G Sharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154452&oldid=154451 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-7) 10/* Functions */
> 1742850153 155638 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07G Sharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154453&oldid=154452 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+24) 10/* Variables */
> 1742850322 177107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07G Sharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154454&oldid=154453 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-17) 10/* Variables */
> 1742850356 523488 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07G Sharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154455&oldid=154454 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-23) 10/* Infinite loop */
> 1742850421 373428 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sleep.14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154456&oldid=153018 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1) 10
> 1742850752 136920 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07G Sharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154457&oldid=154455 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+148) 10/* Variables */
> 1742851087 247361 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07G Sharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154458&oldid=154457 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+36) 10/* Errors */
> 1742851176 873577 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07G Sharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154459&oldid=154458 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+12) 10/* Syntax */
> 1742851450 785027 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07G Sharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154460&oldid=154459 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+53) 10/* Examples */
> 1742851585 384877 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07G Sharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154461&oldid=154460 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-10) 10/* Truth-machine */
> 1742851819 258157 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07true14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154462&oldid=151671 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+23) 10/* Infinite loop */
> 1742851998 103052 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154463&oldid=151333 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+106) 10/* Implementations */
> 1742852037 709532 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154464&oldid=154463 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+0) 10/* Implementations */
> 1742852078 586005 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154465&oldid=154464 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-63) 10
< 1742852378 910814 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1742853323 411218 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1742853788 592969 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1742854476 584711 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Maza14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154466 5* 03Maza 5* (+112) 10Maza's profile
> 1742855329 452983 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Postrado14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154467&oldid=151227 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-27) 10/* Infinite Loop */
> 1742855667 641570 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Queue-based esolang++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154468&oldid=151148 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-1) 10
< 1742856748 791567 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1742856807 910181 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca JOIN #esolangs zzo38 :zzo38
< 1742856935 907184 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Unfortunately the port knocking configuration seemed to cause a kernel panic
< 1742856970 467600 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :uh oh
< 1742857724 423337 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:e1c2:84b0:caab:9b02 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1742860838 134991 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The router has no configuration for port knocking (as far as I can tell), which is why I had to configure it on the computer instead.)
< 1742861070 915163 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1742861176 943449 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
> 1742861386 867974 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BytePusher14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154469&oldid=150105 5* 03Bradcypert 5* (+136) 10Add new Bytepusher implementation to machines list
> 1742862465 331418 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Reversible Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154470&oldid=51462 5* 03L4.m2 5* (+189) 10/* `.` and `,` */ new section
> 1742864205 806456 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Foldy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154471&oldid=153903 5* 03Squareroot12621 5* (-19) 10No Buckets, you got it wrong. Maybe use the interpreter next time?
< 1742864839 953288 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1742864931 911661 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
< 1742866522 663579 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1742873068 984558 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :The article gopher://verisimilitudes.net/02019-11-22 is managed to make most of the lines into the same length. They also complain about some stuff that I had wanted to complain about too, such as registering a domain nme purely to have it point to a HTTP server providing a single document, and Unicode.
< 1742873317 177892 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I do not agree with everything mentioned there even though there are some good points. For example, I think that using one character set (or one character encoding) for all text for all applications is not a good idea.)
> 1742873907 278739 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fn14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154472&oldid=154415 5* 03C0ffee 5* (-37) 10
> 1742874170 552832 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fn14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154473&oldid=154472 5* 03C0ffee 5* (-14) 10
> 1742874187 279137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:C0ffee14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154474&oldid=154413 5* 03C0ffee 5* (+0) 10
< 1742878134 640493 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :They also invented a homoiconic variant of brainfuck; I can add into esolang wiki if desired
> 1742879232 849504 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Masturbation14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154475 5* 03Zzo38 5* (+746) 10Created page with "'''Masturbation''' is a variant of [[brainfuck]] with homoiconicity.  There is one new command, which is = which has the following behaviour: If the value of the current cell is zero then the program memory overwrites the data memory, but if nonzero then 
> 1742880150 626388 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Stkptr/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154476&oldid=127594 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+11770) 10
< 1742883550 193610 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1742886247 537508 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Gabenugeet1141 5*  10New user account
< 1742886896 931577 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1742886914 411460 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1742886979 972937 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1742894670 148602 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Banba man 5*  10New user account
> 1742895211 138614 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/List of the users that is also in conwaylife.com14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154477&oldid=153747 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+186) 10the same thing for xdi8 wiki is being collected!
> 1742896694 623464 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03BerdiesLuvr 5*  10New user account
> 1742896881 260113 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154478&oldid=154426 5* 03BerdiesLuvr 5* (+166) 10/* Introductions */
> 1742898178 728478 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03BerdiesLuvr 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:Quadnary Icon.png10]]"
> 1742898730 268008 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainknot14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154480 5* 03Mahdoosh1 5* (+5081) 10Created page with "=About brainknot= It's a similar language to [[Brainfuck]] and [[Turing machine]] made by [[Users:Mahdoosh1]]. But with some changes  ==Syntax== it's the same, but alphabet are not counted as comments, you need a spcific symbol before every comment  ==What's the dif
> 1742899014 254535 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Users:Mahdoosh114]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154481 5* 03Mahdoosh1 5* (+304) 10Created page with "== Info == Hey! I am Mahdoosh1 and my real name is Mahdi. I also have two YT channels: [https://youtube.com/@The-BitStream Bit Stream] and [https://youtube.com/@mahdoosh1907 Mahdoosh1] == Contact == You can contact me in [https://discord.com/users/mahdoosh1 Dis
> 1742899205 403992 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PkmnQ14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154482&oldid=153912 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+796) 10Beginnings of an [[efghij]] program
> 1742899294 827870 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainknot14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154483&oldid=154480 5* 03Mahdoosh1 5* (-1) 10fix typo
< 1742902005 13985 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina JOIN #esolangs Lykaina :Lykaina
< 1742903356 542783 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1742903599 279522 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Does APic say more than a thousand words?
< 1742903703 735479 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1742904173 911633 :mtm!~textual@47.202.75.129 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1742904344 983351 :mtm!~textual@47-202-75-129.fdr01.sprg.fl.ip.frontiernet.net JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1742904408 582119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07QuadnaryLang14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154484 5* 03BerdiesLuvr 5* (+2965) 10Created page with "[https://www.mediafire.com/file/xt5gjzelrl2j1rp/QuadnaryLang.zip/file Link to QuadnaryLang interpreter (node.js)]
 Sorry if this page is dry, I don't know what happened with previous page. First, an explanation on quadnaries. What are they? They function si
> 1742904916 135682 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154485&oldid=154383 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+165) 10/* Merge pages */ new section
> 1742904931 637135 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154486&oldid=154485 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+93) 10
> 1742906688 336908 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/List of the users that is also in conwaylife.com14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154487&oldid=154477 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+47) 10
> 1742906830 726665 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154488&oldid=154465 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+148) 10
> 1742907572 495683 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/List of the users that is also in conwaylife.com14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154489&oldid=154487 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+75) 10
> 1742907768 116316 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154490&oldid=154212 5* 0347 5* (-14) 10/* What do I like and hate at same time */  bots don't even have a gender
> 1742907824 952239 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154491&oldid=153624 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-8) 10
> 1742907843 957407 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154492&oldid=154491 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-1) 10
> 1742907907 416511 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5*  10moved [[02User:Hotcrystal0/CAPI10]] to [[CAPI]]: I think its no longer WIP
> 1742907907 435662 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5*  10moved [[02User talk:Hotcrystal0/CAPI10]] to [[Talk:CAPI]]: I think its no longer WIP
> 1742907922 533139 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CAPI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154497&oldid=154493 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-40) 10
> 1742910199 568302 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rivulet14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154498 5* 03Rottytooth 5* (+1814) 10Initial stub
> 1742910707 389784 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rivulet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154499&oldid=154498 5* 03Rottytooth 5* (+67) 10Added categories
> 1742910864 980210 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rivulet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154500&oldid=154499 5* 03Rottytooth 5* (+166) 10Design inspiration
< 1742912390 181202 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
> 1742912645 392729 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Draft of EtPL14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154501 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+2218) 10Created page with "{{WIP}}  Eternal Pratical Language is designed by PrySigneToFry in 2025, it is designed for all beginners to learn programming, like [[Bunnybell]](or Bellbase). As an easy-to-understand and practical programming language, this lang
> 1742912682 791444 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154502&oldid=154266 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+61) 10
> 1742913505 868616 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Abacus Computer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154503&oldid=153529 5* 03LillyHStClaire 5* (+3378) 10Add explanation for the top level abilities of Abacus
> 1742913872 861699 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:BitChanger Busy beaver14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154504&oldid=153603 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+34) 10
> 1742923236 139853 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Quadratic sync problem14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154505&oldid=79158 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+1076) 10/* Computational class */
< 1742924600 215092 :justdanishere!~justdanis@213.226.141.64 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] justdanishere
< 1742924617 575590 :justdanishere!~justdanis@213.226.141.64 QUIT :Client Quit
> 1742924886 394734 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Long314]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154506 5* 03JIT 5* (+4454) 10Created page with "== Trilogy of the [[Long]]'s == [[Long]] (or [[Long|Long1]] for [[Long]]) by [[User:Hex96]]  [[Long2]] by [[User:Yes]]  [https://esolangs.org/wiki/Long3/ Long3]  by [[User:JIT]]  == The esolang part ==  Long3 is an esolang by [[User:JIT]], 2025  To set a number, you have to <
> 1742925043 59738 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154507&oldid=154440 5* 03JIT 5* (+35) 10/* L */
< 1742925076 596627 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1742925085 910659 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi JOIN #esolangs HackEso :zemhill
> 1742925115 947420 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Long214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154508&oldid=102695 5* 03JIT 5* (+25) 10
> 1742928157 621188 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Long314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154509&oldid=154506 5* 0347 5* (-1) 10
> 1742928786 217039 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154510&oldid=153931 5* 03H33T33 5* (+6979) 10
< 1742929228 439082 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1742929423 907605 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154511&oldid=151373 5* 0347 5* (+15) 10/* Syntax */
> 1742929437 540751 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154512&oldid=154511 5* 0347 5* (+0) 10/* Syntax */
> 1742929586 371051 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Topple14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154513 5* 03H33T33 5* (+369) 10Created page with "{| class="wikitable" |+ Caption text |- ! Header text |- | Example |}  ==Bugs/Problems== ''If any problems or bugs are found, please report them below and they will be fixed as soon as possible''   ==Questions== ''Questions about the language, its syntax, etc. will go
> 1742929615 881211 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Topple14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154514&oldid=154513 5* 03H33T33 5* (-71) 10
< 1742930036 613234 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
> 1742930230 104155 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154515&oldid=154512 5* 0347 5* (-14) 10/* Syntax */
> 1742930418 65983 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154516&oldid=154515 5* 0347 5* (+49) 10/* Syntax */
< 1742930713 551502 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1742930804 888955 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org JOIN #esolangs leah2 :Leah Neukirchen
< 1742933332 241059 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1742933345 345184 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :And wb leah2   😉
> 1742936784 469517 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Diophantine equation14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154517 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+5738) 10Create page
> 1742936889 821462 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Quadratic sync problem14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154518&oldid=154505 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+1) 10/* Computational class */
> 1742936905 799781 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Quadratic sync problem14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154519&oldid=154518 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+0) 10/* Computational class */
> 1742937037 969892 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tableaux14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154520&oldid=95384 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+4) 10/* Computational class */ Link to Diophantine equation page
> 1742937055 995644 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tableaux14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154521&oldid=154520 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+0) 10/* Computational class */ link case
> 1742937193 407089 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Diophantine equation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154522&oldid=154517 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+29) 10
> 1742937315 528350 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154523&oldid=154507 5* 03Buckets 5* (+10) 10
> 1742937341 204254 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Diophantine equation14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154524&oldid=154522 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+30) 10/* As a model of computation */ Use HTML superscript
> 1742937351 229929 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154525&oldid=154441 5* 03Buckets 5* (+24) 10
> 1742937364 36306 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AoA14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154526 5* 03Buckets 5* (+2236) 10Created page with "AoA is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in An Unknown year.  After Every command, A Random Thing will Be forgotten, either A number, Command or Variable (This does not Include REMEMBER! [], Instead of forgetting A Command or number O
> 1742938510 579916 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Diophantine equation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154527&oldid=154524 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+347) 10
> 1742939561 551418 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/Zerons14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154528 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+853) 10experimental math system
> 1742939584 169061 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154529&oldid=154140 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+27) 10/* anything else */
< 1742939898 442665 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1742940421 979396 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1742940652 828176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Quebe14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154530&oldid=118931 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+273) 10
< 1742941498 944380 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1742942572 702051 :mtm!~textual@47-202-75-129.fdr01.sprg.fl.ip.frontiernet.net QUIT :Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com
> 1742946539 262318 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/Zerons14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154531&oldid=154528 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+958) 10some more juicy MATH
> 1742946707 560445 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Signals14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154532 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+3928) 10Create page
> 1742949566 927966 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154533&oldid=154510 5* 03H33T33 5* (-42) 10
> 1742949716 34147 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:H33T3314]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154534&oldid=152196 5* 03H33T33 5* (+12) 10/* Experience */
> 1742950329 895670 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Hazel 5*  10New user account
> 1742950455 537577 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154535&oldid=154478 5* 03Hazel 5* (+111) 10Hello, world -Hazel
> 1742950517 901345 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hazel14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154536 5* 03Hazel 5* (+48) 10Created page with "== hazel ==  transfem lesbian, she/her. the end."
> 1742950762 633140 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/Zerons14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154537&oldid=154531 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+0) 10/* Further */ mistake
> 1742952258 659929 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rivulet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154538&oldid=154500 5* 03Rottytooth 5* (+2625) 10Added more syntax
> 1742952553 116790 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rivulet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154539&oldid=154538 5* 03Rottytooth 5* (+361) 10Adding images
> 1742952918 805581 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Rottytooth 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:Rivulet Fibonacci1.png10]]": A Fibonacci program in the Rivulet language
> 1742952970 105081 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rivulet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154541&oldid=154539 5* 03Rottytooth 5* (+0) 10
> 1742952973 34379 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Goog14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154542 5* 03Hazel 5* (+2271) 10Add Esolang "Goog"
> 1742953011 68562 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Rottytooth 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:Rivulet Fibonacci2.png10]]"
> 1742953070 158587 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Rottytooth 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:Rivulet Fibonacci4.png10]]": Another Fibonacci program in Rivulet
> 1742953338 569298 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UT1914]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154545&oldid=122761 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+327) 10/* The production rules of UT19 */ Add more typical alphabetical version for clarity
> 1742953474 899265 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rivulet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154546&oldid=154541 5* 03Rottytooth 5* (+151) 10Added images
> 1742953508 518199 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rivulet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154547&oldid=154546 5* 03Rottytooth 5* (+0) 10Resized images
> 1742953784 388832 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154548&oldid=154523 5* 03Hazel 5* (+11) 10/* G */  - Add Goog
< 1742961161 250733 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The IPv6 saga continues: DigitalOcean has now (politely) told me to go complain to my ISP instead. Well, there's still a "different team" investigating it from their end, but still.
< 1742961189 766126 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :So I filed a support ticket with my ISP, and hit the size limit of their web form, and after clicking submit the report just... disappeared.
< 1742961208 1102 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :So I've sent them an email instead, because at least that doesn't have silly-short size limits.
< 1742961307 439141 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I'm pessimistically expecing I have to go through the standard support script of "have you tried restarting your router?" and (once they learn I'm not actually using the one they supplied) the request to switch back to their dinky box, no matter how clear it seems to be that the problem's _between_ the ISP and DigitalOcean networks, not at either end.
< 1742961396 405524 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :And I guess to be fair, it's not entirely impossible that, I don't know, their "Hyperhub" does some special magic in the DHCPv6 prefix delegation request that enables this one particular route to also work.
< 1742961436 342571 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :heh that could be the worst outcome
< 1742961614 471323 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( haunted IPv6 routing )
> 1742964776 665075 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Goog14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154549&oldid=154542 5* 03Stkptr 5* (-230) 10Fix categories, no looping so it's total, also no conditionals
< 1742965723 710011 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1742966844 408641 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wanted to make up a pokemon battle with each side only having one pokemon remaining, of which the first one has a move with recoil damage (or Life Orb) that will knock itself out, and knock out the second pokemon iff it scores a critical hit, but the second pokemon is faster, and confused and will knock itself out if it attacks itself due to confusion but has a move that will defeat the first one in one hit.
< 1742966937 268205 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Furthermore, the second one must be allowed to learn Roar or Whirlwind, and the first one does not have any move without recoil damage that it is able to select.
< 1742967007 674275 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Do you know?
< 1742970129 921797 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Actually, it is probably not necessary for the confusion damage to knock out yourself in one hit, but it must knock you out when added to the minimum damage caused by the opponent's attack.)
< 1742970976 647082 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1742971392 382670 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :On TI-92, newList(0) is an error even though logically it would be sense to be valid (to make a empty list), I think.
< 1742973301 191703 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1742973368 934613 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1742973383 470400 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1742974937 763404 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Table14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154550&oldid=148527 5* 03Rdococ 5* (-47) 10/* Semantics */
> 1742977900 742842 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03BerdiesLuvr 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:L'toile Noire.png10]]"
< 1742979308 400442 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1742982143 215900 :sirikon!~sirikon@2403:6200:8892:5d20:5d90:6403:b526:bacc JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] sirikon
< 1742982192 379144 :sirikon!~sirikon@2403:6200:8892:5d20:5d90:6403:b526:bacc QUIT :Client Quit
< 1742982213 254013 :sirikon!~sirikon@2403:6200:8892:5d20:5d90:6403:b526:bacc JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] sirikon
< 1742982290 171174 :sirikon!~sirikon@2403:6200:8892:5d20:5d90:6403:b526:bacc QUIT :Client Quit
< 1742985389 487421 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1742987716 917001 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de JOIN #esolangs * :rodgort
< 1742988778 215302 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1742988876 636578 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :re https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2025-03-24.html#lub the "Edg/" thing is correct, https://dpaste.com/C2XPZU8K2.txt has request headers I got from actual browsers on windows. These are headers for a request to an unknown host, so probably not quite the same as the typical headers that browsers send, where they already know they can send
< 1742988877 136819 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :HTTP2 or SSL or whatever.
< 1742988906 56299 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the user agent string says: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/133.0.0.0 Safari/537.36 Edg/133.0.0.0
< 1742989169 48021 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so yes, that has quite a few brand names in there. we should make one that also says Netscape Firebird MSIE Opera in the same line.
< 1742989262 427701 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Latest charts: https://zem.fi/tmp/errors3.png -- nice stair-step pattern there. So still happening, sporadically.
< 1742990983 373509 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
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> 1742997692 645193 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fontmess14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154556&oldid=154408 5* 03JIT 5* (+33) 10
> 1742998402 698617 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rivulet14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154557&oldid=154547 5* 03Rottytooth 5* (+43) 10/* Strand Types */
> 1742998519 44004 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154558&oldid=154548 5* 03Rottytooth 5* (+14) 10Added Rivulet
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> 1742999175 354091 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Draft of EtPL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154560&oldid=154501 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+838) 10
> 1742999521 605245 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rivulet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154561&oldid=154557 5* 03Rottytooth 5* (+84) 10/* Example */
> 1742999536 820249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rivulet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154562&oldid=154561 5* 03Rottytooth 5* (+1) 10/* Example */
< 1742999850 390286 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.3.8.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
> 1743001201 662760 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/Zerons14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154563&oldid=154537 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-809) 10/* \sqrt{q}? */ hang on that's wrong
< 1743002074 421147 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1743004452 943990 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1743006562 51809 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1743006571 783307 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Ilikeundertale 5*  10New user account
> 1743008051 801093 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Waduzitdo14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154564&oldid=130315 5* 03Krolkrol 5* (+123) 10
< 1743008310 549751 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Curses. I've seen the end of programming. I'm adding "set up a co-op that can fund the next stage of software development" to my topics to chat with my lawyer about.
< 1743008334 125898 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been chewing on "Galois Theory of Algorithms" https://arxiv.org/abs/1011.0014 and thinking about what it means for writing a program.
< 1743008378 846394 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Let's say that I'm hacking in some cruddy imperative "close-to-the-metal" ALGOL descendant. There are few automorphisms which fix the semantic behavior of programs in that language, because almost every statement is fully dependent on almost every other prior statement. We call this "data-dependent control flow".
< 1743008446 242448 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yanofsky proposes three reasonable operations, and notes that we can take a quotient of programs based on the requirement that these operations commute. The operations are "bracket" (product), primitive recursion, and sequential composition.
< 1743008486 861320 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So, for example, if we have a program like `x += 1; y += 2;` then we can note that the lack of data dependency between the two statements allows us to find an automorphism respecting composition sending it to `y += 2; x += 1;`
< 1743008533 519313 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll skip the category theory. It's shown that we can decide equivalence of programs given bracket and composition, but *not* with primitive recursion.
< 1743008587 319450 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's also known that the "initial operations" generated by these three operations include building every natural number, and thus that the automorphisms ought to respect those operations; a program that outputs 5 should never be considered equivalent to a program which doesn't output 5.
< 1743008661 414361 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Finishing the background, Yanofsky gives the punchline that the automorphism group under all three ops is the trivial group; there are programs whose behavior isn't equivalent to others under these three reasonable ways of combining programs.
< 1743008704 103041 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This isn't in any fancy computational model. It's Kleene's primitive-recursive functionals. The same stuff used in HOL or Cammy or Peano arithmetic.
< 1743008799 791587 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Here's what I just realized. Let some monad carry our imperative language's effects. The monad freely gives a Kleisli category, *which has composition*. We usually compute over sets, over which all monads are strong, so we freely *have a bracket*.
< 1743008919 209136 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So, given some equivalence of imperative programs, Yanofsky says that we also have an equivalence of arrows in the Kleisli category. But they also say that if we add primitive recursion for those arrows, then we can't compute the equivalence any longer.
< 1743008986 711670 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But primitive recursion in a category is merely repeated composition. So this means that we can't even compare equivalence of programs under indefinitely-repeated composition, which makes sense if you know about e.g. mortal-matrix problems.
< 1743009217 398146 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's not quite a slogan, but: Sometimes a program will not be computably equivalent to any other program, even any other program which computes the same function.
< 1743009293 814795 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This is kind of like making Rice's theorem worse, and also kind of like an irreducible-control-flow lemma.
< 1743009510 998633 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...It's also obviously a little wrong, in the sense that given some total program P, some composition c() and some identity program I, c(P,I) ≈ P, and even for partial P, c(I,P) ≈ P. So we need some sort of size to give order and metric, and then restate "sometimes, the *smallest* program computing some function..."
< 1743009683 581318 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway, my big insight is that we currently write *programs*, and we have trouble not doing that because sometimes we can't (efficiently??) express certain *functions* without getting into machine-specific details.
< 1743009742 376140 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Obviously we want to write *algorithms* since the 60s and *functions* since the 80s. Yes. But how? We know programs are surjective on algorithms are surjective on functions, but that doesn't somehow ease the task of actually picking out a program for a particular function.
< 1743009846 695749 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Functions and algorithms both give genuine categories; we *can* decompose them with the three ops. But we can't do that for programs. So instead our compilers all work in subsets of the languages that support "calling conventions" and "procedures" and other ways of reusing and compressing code.
< 1743009947 40736 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Since we can't stop paying those costs, we call them "interpretative overhead" and brag about how our "Jones-optimal partial evaluator" can remove them, asymptotically, probably. We complain about how "intrinsics" perform an object-register mapping and never consider whether ORMs are necessary.
< 1743010237 201771 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This is also the root of the split between MLs. I've long struggled to see why Haskell, OCaml, etc. have efficient runtimes and also aren't eta- or beta-equivalent, and meanwhile Idris, Adga, Coq, etc. are pure type systems that are not fast and must undergo extraction for speed. If we note that the latter have a vague concept of program equivalence, then it's somewhat obvious what's going on: the latter are program-oriented, not function-oriented
< 1743010237 313503 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!
< 1743010308 897655 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...Yes, thanks IRC. Anyway, this suggests that e.g. Rust in the former camp and therefore can't save software development because it lacks nice composition properties. It also suggests that e.g. Cammy is in the latter camp, and indeed it's only fast because of extraction with a JIT. I'm open to frame challenges but this is explaining more than it's obscuring.
< 1743010781 556780 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: reading your messages now
< 1743010866 438243 :ajal!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1743010866 540977 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1743010906 93990 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I think I have my own thoughts about this sort of thing, but they don't contradict yours
< 1743010999 40753 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :recently I've been viewing programming through a lens of a) trying to make subprograms into pure functions as much as possible, with any effects encoded in the input and output, and b) where possible, limiting the syntax to things that have a nice canonical form that optimizers can operate based on
< 1743011050 758429 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one of the biggest mistakes programming languages make is to accidentally make a detail that should be irrelevant observable
< 1743011079 814177 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and this is a type of mistake that normally can't be backwards-compatibly corrected
< 1743011106 466368 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I think the reason it happens is that the languages start by using algorithms to specify functions, and that makes it easy to accidentally capture an implementation detail
< 1743011224 948562 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've also been considering writing a blog post about why Rust reborrowing (the thing that is special about &mut) seems to cause most of Rust's major problems, even though it's hard to deal without – and I think that is consistent with your viewpoint too, as reborrowing is the Rust construct that behaves least like a pure function
< 1743011358 933264 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Yeah. I think that we often couch all of this in terms of purity, which happens to generalize Yanofsky because functions are definitionally pure. Certainly, implementing pure type systems is a special case of all of this.
< 1743011397 958177 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think purity is the most marketing-friendly way to talk about the concept, at least – even people who aren't deeply into type theory can have an idea of what it means
< 1743011429 753659 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :To stereotype my conversations with implementors of languages like Idris or Coq, they have a distinction between "computation" in terms of simplifying/rewriting terms, and "extraction" in terms of actual compilation.
< 1743011478 261779 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This also shows up in partial evaluation; in e.g. lambda calculus, there's a real distinction between beta-reduction of symbolic terms and the effective beta-reduction performed by call/return semantics.
< 1743011501 937893 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Er, like CBV semantics obviously, but also calling by partially-evaluated reference.
< 1743011553 841866 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am increasingly thinking that references should be an implementation detail rather than something explicitly managed by the programmer
< 1743011586 520679 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :an obvious example is the distinction between &T and &&T in Rust, which is necessary for type-system reasons but causes runtime overhead for almost no good reason
< 1743011619 174184 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Your (b) is definitely both desirable and something for which we have a type-theoretic ceiling. It's known that Cartesian-closed categories have a canonical form for arrows on their own, but if we add sums (bicartesian) or natural-numbers objects, then equivalence is undecidable.
< 1743011634 961294 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the only thing that prevents you optimising &&T into a copy of the &T is that it might get converted to a raw pointer, which most programs don't care about doing)
< 1743011680 94525 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wouldn't expect practically useful programming languages to have decidable equivalence, because that places huge constraints on the computational class that likely rule out a wide range of useful programs
< 1743011683 369193 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The first part of that sounds a lot like "no Turing-complete language has genuine sums and products", but it comes from a totally different angle: there's no finite axiomatization of rewrites for bicartesian-closed categories.
< 1743011709 273225 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but maybe large portions of them can
< 1743011780 621074 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in a language I am working on, I realised that programs are conceptually much easier to express if the virtual-machine evaluation order used in the specification is very different from the evaluation order of the compiled assembly language
< 1743011800 740982 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although in order to pull that off, you need a lot of statements to be able to commute
< 1743011897 921944 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suspect the construct that most commonly causes program equivalence to become undecidable is the unbounded loop (whether done via recursion or imperatively)
< 1743011905 360903 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, well, Blindfolded Arithmetic is enough to demonstrate that
< 1743011910 661244 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :don't even need any control flow, just the loop
< 1743011917 327291 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. And we can see the gaps here. For example, when we compile a language with pairs ("bracket") into stack-machine code, we usually get to choose whether to evaluate the left-hand or right-hand component first. That choice is a compiler choice and often commutative.
< 1743011951 801104 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes – and ideally a well-designed language would make it impossible to write a program where the choice was observable
< 1743011965 786612 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But that suggests that, as a compiler, we're embedding a possibly-trivial automorphism group into a non-trivial group.
< 1743011975 440615 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for example, you could reject programs in which both arguments to the pair constructor had side effects
< 1743012012 87724 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or use a type system to do the same thing
< 1743012045 982194 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And Yanofsky showed that the non-trivial automorphism groups correspond to equivalences of programs which don't fully respect bracket, composition, or recursion. Since bracket is freely respected here, and since composition is usually implied in homomorphic compilers, this means that e.g. Cammy's compiler must create some observable non-equivalences of recursion.
< 1743012046 940613 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think pair constructors are special here, the same thing is true of function arguments in general
< 1743012060 394492 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And indeed there are some test Cammy programs that provoke StackOverflow in the underlying JIT.
< 1743012130 795538 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Pair construction is just a convenient example. We could use any categorical structure that's implied by the three ops.
< 1743012136 700434 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am not surprised that lack of equivalence is mathematically unavoidable, and agree that recursion/loops is the best place for it to happen
< 1743012199 84336 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I used to be a little surprised that OCaml and GHC Haskell don't have eta-equivalence. Angry, even. Now I'm thinking that it's inevitable if they want to automatically and homomorphically generate efficient programs.
< 1743012280 31739 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(It doesn't matter that Hask isn't a category! Yanofsky expects languages to only give graphs. For categories, the structure's already too nice to have interesting Galois theory.)
< 1743012408 361111 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which version of eta-equivalence are you talking about? the general one which lets you substitute any function for another function with the same I/O behaviour, or the specific one that only converts between f and \x -> f x?
< 1743012454 904506 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Either TBH, but Ocaml specifically lacks the latter, and GHC has historically had many bugs relating to it.
< 1743012490 420844 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right – Ocaml specifically has observable evaluation order which breaks that equivalence – Haskell I would have expected to uphold it, though, and it sounds like it's trying to?
< 1743012740 650957 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, the automorphism groups don't preserve computational complexity. GHC bugs usually aren't miscompiles but performance problems; the relevant part of the compiler is their "lambda lifter", which also decides whether to eta-convert expressions to add/remove laziness.
< 1743012777 313428 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, I see
< 1743012794 885221 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...I mean, some of the automorphism groups do preserve complexity, but anything involving loops appears to not be that easy. Yanofsky suggests that natural numbers are some sort of special semantic object that brings in the complexity.
< 1743012836 820429 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that might be backwards – in the sense that I suspect the same sorts of things that introduce complexity can also be used to implement natural numbers
< 1743012869 460331 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is why The Waterfall Model is so good at proving TCness – pretty much anything that is complex enough to be TC can implement natural numbers more or less directly, and TWM doesn't need anything else
< 1743012930 60294 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the basic reason is that anything TC has to be able to store arbitrary amounts of data, and "the amount of data" is typically something you can use to represent a number
> 1743012945 503988 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Table14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154565&oldid=154550 5* 03Rdococ 5* (-156) 10
> 1743013004 652549 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Table14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154566&oldid=154565 5* 03Rdococ 5* (+1) 10/* Truth machine */
< 1743013580 242598 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's definitely a way of looking at it, although I worry that it's too focused on the computer as the source of the complexity. After all, we usually define complexity in terms of asymptotes which extend beyond any single computer.
< 1743013605 621485 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, I'm thinking in terms of abstract machines here, not physical computers
< 1743013669 880356 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh! I was always thinking in terms of abstract machines, sorry. Like, "the computer" might well be Kleene's formalism, which also assumes the existence of natural numbers.
< 1743013719 589419 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I have a semantics-first way of thinking about TC proofs because that's how most esolangs are defined
< 1743013777 320862 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I also have a suspicion that taking asymptotes/limits of programs is a dangerous/risky operation in the sense that it may not be well-defined – it can definitely cause a huge expansion to a computational class
< 1743013785 90647 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :No worries. I only think so much about abstract syntax because I'm always writing cruddy compilers.
< 1743013842 508436 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for example, suppose you have a language equipped with a random oracle; if you use it it returns either true (with probability p) or false (with probability 1-p) – you can give that to a TC language and it's still TC (just with potentially random behaviour) – but if you take the limit as p goes to 0, it becomes able to solve the halting problem
< 1743013854 83125 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(even though the actual value of p=0 would be entirely useless)
< 1743013914 262397 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right. We can always define limits of categories, and a "star graph" category can serve as the appropriate diagram; it's got arrows 0 → 1, 0 → 2, 0 → 3, etc. But programs only give a graph, not a category, under typical rewriting rules.
< 1743013984 130629 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, yeah, the limit has to be WRT some categorical structure, and I'm not sure how the complexity class R behaves when we do that. (I've failed to understand Turing categories like three times; they are not easy constructions.)
< 1743013996 40227 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would not expect programs to usefully give a limit ("useful" in the sense that it corresponds to any operation that you can actually calculate or implement or that gives insight for reasoning about programs)
< 1743014109 941091 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, we can get one insight: what are some trivial complexity bounds for a given program? If we can determine which algorithm it implements, then we can shift to the category of algorithms, optionally give it a non-uniform representation, map it onto a star graph, and take the limit in some metric space.
< 1743014164 200800 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That determiniation must be the hard part, because we usually just kind of handwave over the rest of it!
< 1743014218 822498 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I agree – you can prove that by "contradiction" in that if we could easily tell what algorithm an arbitrary program implemented, it would be trivial to optimise it
< 1743014285 146233 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In the sense that, since programs are surjective on algorithms, once we've picked out a representative (which we established earlier is hard) then we can hand-optimize that representative. And recognizing an algorithm is "idiom detection" from compiler engineering.
< 1743014320 504121 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are limited languages in which you can do that, e.g. with a language that has integer constant and variables and + - × and non-recursive functions but no control flow or loops, you can canonicalise functions into polynomials
< 1743014351 884534 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and one thing that I'm interested in is expanding that sort of language into something that still canonicalises but can express a greater range of useful programs
< 1743014363 685410 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. can we add bitwise operators and bitshifts to that?
< 1743014366 747681 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, but also: for a given program, we know at least one algorithm it implements, because we know one function it implements: it implements the effects encoded by the Kleisli category of the effect monad! And algos are surjective on functions.
< 1743014411 759871 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Further we know how to use abstract interpretation to concretely transform a program with loops into a worst-case complexity analysis, and we teach it to undergrads when we show them the triply-nested loop for matrix multiplication.
< 1743014438 792498 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :idiom detection annoys me – I a) intuitively feel like it's the wrong approach but b) don't know any better alternatives
< 1743014471 963882 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the reason I think it's the wrong approach is that it will usually optimise some programs differently from other programs that are clearly (to a human) equivalent
< 1743014479 896948 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :especially if it isn't confluent, which it isn't usually
< 1743014504 108823 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hm. That's a good question and one that we'd need a ring theorist to really take apart. It sounds very familiar, maybe because somebody stubbed a Diophantine-equation article recently.
< 1743014572 827266 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right, we know that tile-oriented instruction selection is NP-hard to do well, and idiom detection is -- if we allow individual instructions to be idioms -- therefore NP-hard too.
< 1743014590 81426 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :come to think of it, just being able to prove that a set of tree-rewriting optimisations is confluent would be useful, and seems theoretically possible in at least some cases
< 1743014609 420526 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, NP-hardness, that makes sense
< 1743014647 891050 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :To the point where I always remember NOLTIS in terms of what it stands for: Nearly-Optimal Linear-Time Instruction Selection. Wow! And it uses tiles explicitly, too.
< 1743014724 916911 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :related: I recently came across a problem related to instruction selection for which the abstract version is this: you have a number of known finite sets, and need to choose one element for each set – for each pair of elements in different sets there is a (possibly zero) cost, and you want to make a selection that minimises the total cost across all pairs of elements you selected
< 1743014762 730140 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this looks really reminiscent of an NP-complete problem but I haven't immediately figured out which one – in particular it reminds me a lot of Boolean satisfaction but the restriction to pairs makes it hard to implement anything other than 2-SAT directly
< 1743014777 270886 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :b_jonas
< 1743014816 532036 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It reminds me of how Sudoku is solved, and Hamiltonian cycles are doable in a similar setup. It becomes 0-1 programming when we set the cost to be a Dirac delta (0 when i = j and 1 otherwise).
< 1743014864 79796 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Pair-of-elements is like a 2-graph; it's a double-decker where each edge is valued in the *elements* of nodes and not just the nodes themselves.
< 1743014885 880708 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh you're right, I think it does do Hamiltonian cycles directly (the sets are the edges from each vertex, and there's a high cost for choosing two edges that don't connect to each other)
< 1743014919 674258 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It reminds me of Sudoku because I bet Norvig's heuristic is decent on it: pick the smallest set and generate the collection of all possible pairs in/out of it, recursively eliminating possibilities.
< 1743014946 225300 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, it looks like the sort of NP-complete problem for which there are good approximations
< 1743015941 259842 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay, I'm back to the three ops. Was thinking about how UNIX kernels used to be handwritten. A kernel can take programs and perform the three ops on them. We'll only consider input and output effects, like with UNIX pipes.
< 1743016020 872450 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Then composition obviously holds. Bracket-pairing should work too. Recursion needs help from a system daemon or a jank series of syscalls but should be possible. So, in a sense, one of the jobs of a (UNIX) kernel is to promote programs into algorithms; the individual programs might not compose, but the computer does as a whole.
< 1743016341 126652 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This is a pretty stark contrast with the "page of code" school, e.g. from VPRI/STEPS, which contends that we should write a single low-level program that is about one page long and merely bootstraps a nicer programming environment, about five or six times.
< 1743016395 899728 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not convinced that the "page of code" strategy is necessarily a sensible way to do programming, but it sounds like a lot of fun – I might try that some time
< 1743016420 777730 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure, maybe the first page of code gets us into a nice low-level image-based Forth-ish or Tcl-ish environment. Maybe the next page of code sets up a GC. Maybe the next page establishes platform-specific hooks and prepares for a userland.
< 1743016468 605590 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But at some point, we want the computer to transition from running one program to providing some sort of program-running environment and giving us various meta powers, and in particular we might want to compose two programs. But programs don't compose.
< 1743016493 861643 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the page-of-code approach eventually hits Kolmogorov complexity limits
< 1743016518 639188 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can create increasingly golfy programming environments, but even the golfiest won't be able to fit a program that's too complicated into a single page
< 1743016544 455802 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :For sure. I also think it's based on some very optimistic assumptions. I think I've documented Nile on-wiki as an example of a STEPS language; it's part ML and part APL, and it was designed to express GPU shaders very succinctly.
< 1743016550 919456 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you'd have to start encoding the actual program you wanted into the language, rather than just writing the best generic language you could
< 1743016560 561184 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And that still takes maybe two pages to implement Porter-Duff in toto.
< 1743016572 640516 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and at that point you're losing the benefits from the approach
< 1743016593 653803 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it could make sense for early bootstrapping, though, as long as you abandon it once it stops working
< 1743016596 781541 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or at least the benefits start shifting to the eDSL benefits.
< 1743016664 24302 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...Sorry, what a bad sentence, and I can't figure out how to rephrase it.
< 1743016744 372885 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, we want to make simple high-level statements like "boot the system", and if those get rephrased to machine-parseable `boot(theSystem)` statements then that's not necessarily worse. Machines can check their well-formedness, do a model-check, etc.
< 1743016775 477989 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Pantagruel might be a good example of that sort of language, but the reference implementation's in Janet and I've been unable to adopt it because Janet's custom build system is jank.
> 1743019320 209825 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Clockwise Turing machine14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154567 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+2710) 10creat
> 1743019635 450075 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FOSMOL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154568&oldid=153872 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+46) 10/* Example macros */ oh duplication is simple actually
> 1743019719 869791 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pantagruel14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154569 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1818) 10Stub a desirable specification language.
< 1743020011 473930 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Okay, so I'm still thinkin' way too hard, but here's an example of a spec language that isn't as encumbered as Dafny or as austere as TLA+. Pantagruel documents are basically little diagrams of a simple type theory. We could imagine interpreting them in a world of functions.
< 1743020095 175148 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :We could imagine calculating a program for such a spec. First, figure out a candidate function; we'll just take the least upper point of the diagram, requiring every property to abstractly hold. Then pull back once for an algorithm, and twice for a program.
< 1743020162 638838 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hopefully we only get stuck at that second stage, since that's the one that we thought was hard earlier. Which algorithm implements the least upper point? Well, any algorithm that checks each property by examining the input will do. We can choose the cheapest one through standard algebraic optimization.
> 1743020312 759045 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Clockwise Turing machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154570&oldid=154567 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+29) 10
< 1743020414 482733 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I'm not handwaving that, BTW. There's a wonderful book using equational reasoning to work through how to *compute* algorithms with desired properties: https://di.uminho.pt/~jno/ps/pdbc.pdf "Program Design by Calculation")
> 1743020434 330188 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Clockwise Turing machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154571&oldid=154570 5* 03Stkptr 5* (-29) 10Undo revision [[Special:Diff/154570|154570]] by [[Special:Contributions/Stkptr|Stkptr]] ([[User talk:Stkptr|talk]])
< 1743020484 23346 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I guess this is covered in the current Chapter 7, "Contract-oriented Programming")
< 1743020951 458574 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm kind-of stuck confused between different levels of abstraction, as usual when I'm thinking about category theory
< 1743021007 830738 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Totally fair. Galois theory is very difficult for me in general, and I think I'd be completely lost if it weren't for programs => algos => functions right now.
< 1743021083 349049 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is it the case that with your terminology, algorithm→program is "hard" because the program captures inessential details that the algorithm doesn't capture, so you can end up producing an undesirable program by forcing the wrong details?
< 1743021215 275785 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's hard to find an efficient program quickly. NP-hard in the specific case of idiom recognition, at least. We can find a decent program using homomorphisms and generic tools, but it'll do "slow" things that respect the symmetries of composition, like saving registers for calling conventions or spilling them for inlined subroutines.
< 1743021256 789289 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, yes, I think I understand now – finding an arbitrary program isn't hard, but finding one with desirable properties is
< 1743021271 902024 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The faster programs might exist, but they won't be found programmatically by a symmetry-respecting tool like a BURG. They'll have to be found by something a little more brute like a superoptimizer.
< 1743021330 348956 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, this reminds me – I think at least inefficiencies related to cross-subroutine register allocation are probably fixable without a full rethink of the way compilers work
< 1743021389 669128 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think register allocation is done too early in typical compile pipelines – it seems like the sort of thing that could reasonably be left as late as possible
< 1743021392 574206 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :A slogan that might help: A concrete category is a path category on some graph (called its "quiver", because it holds arrows, haha~ ugh). This sort of program generation has to follow paths from one possible optimized program to another, and those paths are defined WRT some underlying symmetry due to their inner control flow.
< 1743021428 889757 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and that would open the possibility of each subroutine being built with its own ABI, or maybe even multiple ABIs, that are propagated to do a more optimal register assignment
< 1743021479 147302 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In order to find one of those uniquely efficient programs, the generator has to find a similarly unique path of applied optimizations; in particular, *no optimizations may commute* or else there are multiple underlying paths.
< 1743021492 823463 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, exactly.
< 1743021654 478921 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Oh sheesh, that reminds me of a blog post I did *not* write. If we ignore call/return and stack semantics, the remaining opcodes of most processors give a structure called an "operad".
< 1743021717 462496 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Terminology around these things is awful. An operad is a category that takes multiple inputs and has multiple outputs (a "multicategory"). We want to let some registers be general and others specific (they have "colors", again ugh), and we can apply arguments in any order.
< 1743021763 221603 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But once that's all set up, an operad exactly encodes the dataflow of a program. To evaluate some operation, first evaluate its arguments and then perform the operation itself.
< 1743021826 150679 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think most practical processors nowadays are moving away from special-purpose registers, except a) stack/subroutine-related registers, b) the instruction pointer, and c) the fact that some registers are typically larger than others
< 1743021846 18526 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So the *processor* has symmetries! It's not actually running programs, it's running algorithms! No wonder the modern CPU basically has an on-die JIT.
< 1743021892 650210 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But only if there's a lot of GPRs. Like maybe two or three GPRs, at least. So maybe the 6502 has genuine programs.
< 1743021900 489142 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, that's more true than you imagine – registers nowadays are primarily a convention for expressing SSA in a fairly compressed/golfy form and get decompiled into SSA in the processor
< 1743021956 969633 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the only time a value is stored in an actual physical register is if you don't mention the register for ages (around 100 instructions) and the compiler needs to remember the assignment of value to register name long-term
< 1743021966 841963 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the rest of the time it's all virtual SSA registers, and there are hundreds of them
< 1743022064 758425 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But 6502 is different. Or Z80, whatever. Every primitive operation only operates on specific registers, and they usually can't be substituted for each other. So there's practically no commuting sequences of code in terms of register effects.
< 1743022074 482266 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1743022121 780934 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So there's no point to JIT. Or the point would only be to JIT an emulator if we're virtualized, I guess. But the hardware itself, not able to commute operations, executes programs.
< 1743022123 909120 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :microcontrollers can be different again – the one I used had one traditional register which was an implicit operand of basically every command, and the other operand was memory, but it had a huge number of special-purpose memory addresses
< 1743022163 529581 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. to do an indirect access to memory, you would store the address at, IIRC, memory location 4 and then read/write the value of memory location 0, which was defined as an alias to whatever memory location 4 was poining to
< 1743022177 382573 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so from one point of view it had only one register, from another point of view it had hundreds
< 1743022198 589212 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it was sort-of like a transport-triggered architecture, except that it had normal arithmetic instructions as well as the memory-mapping
< 1743022218 910707 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and likewise normal control flow instructions
< 1743022253 766486 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So nothing would commute, since the implicit register creates data dependencies. Although, if we add standard read-write memory semantics for the rest of the memory bank, then some operations would commute again.
< 1743022338 410180 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, it was worse than that – there were only a couple of hundred bytes of memory total, and it was documented as expected behaviour to use special-purpose registers for general-purpose purposes in order to get a bit more memory
< 1743022358 124734 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So, in some sense, equipping a concrete machine with some I/O -- even just memory -- is loosening it up to only evaluate some algorithm, rather than a specific program.
< 1743022361 789142 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :many of them would, e.g., have enable flags in a different register and act like regular memory when disabled
< 1743022371 878724 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And that makes sense if we think about memory controllers having many different tools for speeding up transfers.
< 1743022417 657330 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I found some of my own asm code for this, it's mostly mov instructions with occasional arithmetic and control flow
< 1743022444 369847 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and instructions to set/clear/toggle single bits directly in memory, without needing to go via the register
< 1743022490 569595 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wasn't expecting this to have RMW instructions but those ones do make sense, given how the processor works (and, come to think of it, might have been implemented without a specific read cycle via using memory that could be written a single bit at a time)
< 1743022528 278079 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*But* if the program is written to require a specific memory-controller behavior, then that would still be targeting a concrete machine. So it turns out that when we want to work with "a machine", we need to be fairly specific about whether it's evaluating programs or algorithms, and we can only tell by doing some Galois theory to see how strongly Hyrum's Law applies.
< 1743022539 569070 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah no, it appears to have actual RMW instructions, there are some "add register to memory", "increment/decrement memory" in here
< 1743022564 479137 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, that's nice of them.
< 1743022587 777988 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: my guess is that practical programming and practical computers don't try to make a hard distinction between programs and algorithms in your sense
< 1743022601 142614 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and this occasionally leads to trouble but mostly works well enough for people to not be bothered by it
< 1743022693 191587 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I agree. And also, more nuanced: a hardware-maker is trying to turn programs into algorithms, which requires new symmetries to be exposed so that some operations can commute. A programmer is trying to turn algorithms into programs, which requires breaking symmetries and choosing a good order of operations.
< 1743022834 886519 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :A compiler author must do both, first by taking a program as representative of a class of algorithms, then by viewing that class as an equivalent category to some other class, and finally by choosing an efficient representative program from the class.
< 1743023008 98484 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Those almost sound like slogans. Needs a bit more cooking.
> 1743023115 256385 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03OskuDev 5*  10New user account
< 1743023204 221912 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I may be misunderstanding something, but I don't think Hamiltonian cycles can be easily reduced to the optimization problem that you gave.  
< 1743023251 490023 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Sorry for the headache; thanks for the rubber-ducking. I think that I have the bulk of the insights for the post; the rest of it is just verifying theses like "every modern language expresses exactly one of: programs, algorithms, or functions".
< 1743023286 441017 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it's NP-complete nevertheless, that's just not the right way to prove it
< 1743023332 566143 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think you have to reduce chromatic number instead, or maximal matching, or something like that.
< 1743023355 155529 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The reduction that you mention doesn't work because it doesn't enforce that there's only once cycle instead of a union of disjoint cycles.
< 1743023527 470363 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Ah curses, and Sudoku doesn't encode nicely for the same reason. Nice catch, thank you.
< 1743023547 449031 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: ah yes, the construction doesn't seem to handle cycle count
< 1743023583 243142 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I actually considered pinging you at that point in the conversation, it seemed like your sort of problem
> 1743023657 551000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bi-tag system14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154572 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+2341) 10crate pag
< 1743023668 669606 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the chromatic number decision problem (more or less than some specific value) seems to work fairly directly? just have a high cost for two adjacent vertices being the same color
< 1743023741 188312 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :My entire thought process about it was wrong, sorry. In particular, if the cost function is always 0 or 1, then it's poly-time whether there's a zero-cost path. I was completely misled by superficial details.
> 1743023753 957717 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tag system14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154573&oldid=115677 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+20) 10/* See also */
< 1743023780 463983 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I think even the only-0-or-1 case can solve the chromatic number decision problem
< 1743023804 889423 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is NP-complete for, e.g., determining whether a graph is 3-colorable
< 1743023809 85484 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :correct, that's my sort of problem
< 1743023827 38801 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and yes, chromatic number works well for this 
> 1743023925 582547 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154574&oldid=154535 5* 03OskuDev 5* (+94) 10/* Introductions */
< 1743024034 993395 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, okay, yeah. The 0-1 case comes out as the path problem for inhabited finite relations, which is canonically NP-complete. I see the chromatic-number encoding too.
< 1743024064 227352 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1743024579 671371 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :as for read-write-modify memory, the silliest language in that respect is https://esolangs.org/wiki/Y86 . it starts normal: most instructions can read an operand from memory but only write to a register, there's of course an ordinary store instruction. but there's one exception: you can one's complement memory in place. I don't know why it's designed that way.
< 1743024710 178762 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It looks like it's the only unary operation? Could be a simplification due to how addressing modes are (expected to be) decoded in hardware.
< 1743024766 475890 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: yeah, but why would they have that unary instruction when there are so few instructions?
< 1743024779 279296 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :At the time, the same sort of operation on a Z80 or 6502 could only happen on the accumulator X, I think? So maybe it went from an op with an implicit address to an op with explicit addressing.
< 1743024791 325664 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I don't know. Retrospect is puzzling.
< 1743024828 916789 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that there may be benefits of not having any instruction that both read and write memory; some are read and some are write but not both.
< 1743024919 387461 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean there's kind of a reason, which is that to some extent y86 is based on 8086, which has special instructions for one's complement, but still, it has lots of other special instructions too
< 1743025242 494257 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The benefit might be that the cycles of the instruction should be more clearly, e.g. instruction cycle, calculation cycle, memory cycle. That way you should not need multiple memory cycles, but calculation cycles might be able to run at same time than other instructions do in some cases, since the calculation cycle does not need to access memory.)
< 1743025333 48419 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a more common pattern is https://esolangs.org/wiki/Viktor%27s_amazing_4-bit_processor and https://esolangs.org/wiki/Lawrence_J._Krakauer%27s_decimal_computer , both of which have arithmetic instructions that get one operand from memory and the other from accumulator and store to accumulator, and have two store instructions: one to store the accumulator and one to store the program counter (for 
< 1743025339 56422 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :subroutine call). 
< 1743025797 859545 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: on the 6502, A is the register that supports most operations; X and Y are limited to moves, increment/decrement, and being used as an address
< 1743025820 358285 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not as familiar with the Z80 but am not sure it even has an X
< 1743025836 837028 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I learned to program on a 6502, originally, so it's the first platform I learned)
< 1743025912 378730 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: huh, I'm familiar with two standard ways to do subroutine calls in hardware and that isn't either of them
< 1743025945 468845 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although I vaguely remember it being used by some early programming languages that didn't support recursion – the location of the caller would be stored in a static variable of the callee
< 1743026010 159008 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it crosses my mind that you don't really need "store/push current address" if you have "store/push immediate", unless you're using some sort of ASLR – but it might be useful anyway due to the instruction being shorter / needing fewer immediate bytes
< 1743026069 171285 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: well these are small toy processors. this wouldn't be very practical in a real machine because you have to know where the return instruction is to call the function, which makes it hard to change programs. optimized programs that ignore the published API and refer to addresses of specific subroutines in the kernal would hardcode not only the entry but the exit address. that would make it very 
< 1743026075 178689 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :annoying to update the ROM.
< 1743026209 649309 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: IIRC the convention was to store the return address immediately before the called address
< 1743026218 379951 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(obviously this requires program memory to be writable)
< 1743026256 608143 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :back in the days of old languages that didn't support recursion, presumably on processors that didn't have stacks because otherwise they would have used those instead
< 1743026314 169566 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ooh, even more fun – you don't need an indirect jump instruction to return, you can have a goto-immediate instruction at a known location and, when calling a function, just overwrite the immediate to decide where to return to
< 1743026347 91315 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this seems like it might potentially be a useful technique for implementing VMs in esolangs?
< 1743026432 933206 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :all three of Knuth's processors (that I documented) have a call instruction that puts the return address into a register, and then the called subroutine can use that register. 
< 1743026663 278595 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, Viktor T. Toth's CPU and Krakauer's language do that, they don't have indexing on any instruction, just modify the address field of the instruction in memory. and Krakauer's language actually adds the same trick to this as MIX does: the store program counter instruction actually only modifies the address field of the memory word, keeps the instruction field unchanged. Viktor T. Toth's CPU 
< 1743026669 285737 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :has nybble-granular memory so you can just directly address the address field, just like you can do on the 6502.
< 1743026731 921070 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"directly address the address field" reminds me of Redcode
< 1743026761 917983 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :MIX also has indexing with index registers, and you can use that for an indirect jump, but subroutine returns don't do that too often. you can only store the return address to memory directly, it's one more instruction to load it back to an index register. can still be worth if you have many return statements from the same subroutine of course.
< 1743026840 11317 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the 6502 and BMOW-1 have indexing with index registers, but even more so than MIX they encourage you to also use self-modifying code for indirect memory access.
< 1743027008 521942 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, that's interesting – the 6502 doesn't really seem to need self-modifying code for that
< 1743027009 301995 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :whereas https://esolangs.org/wiki/Apollo_Guidance_Computer has an indexing instruction that loads an index from memory and it will be added to the next instruction between fetching and executing it. it works for almost any instruction. so it's even more general as MIX's indexing mechanism. 
< 1743027042 306487 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can indirect via a memory address plus a register, and can add the register either to the address being indirected via or the address loaded indirectly
< 1743027079 892345 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: in the 6502 the indexed addressing modes use the X or Y registers as an index, and those registers are one byte long, but the address space is two bytes long, and sometimes you want to index with more than just a byte
< 1743027084 408762 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do like the "add to next instruction" for a short-pipeline processor, it's like you get the benefits of self-modifying code without needing to actually modify the program in RAM
< 1743027114 756549 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yes but you still can indirect via two bytes read from memory
< 1743027125 809348 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you don't need to self-modify code, just store the address you want in RAM
< 1743027138 657628 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and you still get to add one byte of offset to it)
< 1743027162 679576 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, you don't *need* self-modifying code, but self-modifying code is very often the easiest, at least if you have a non-small amount of memory
< 1743027175 98022 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can even do jump tables in a single instruction (although there's no automatic doubling of the offset like x86 can do, so you probably need another instruction to double the register first)
< 1743027205 979214 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I didn't program on banked 6502 implementations but they are very common, to get more than 64KiB of program+data memory
< 1743027228 613809 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I suspect they would make self-modifying code even less useful, especially as code is usually executed from ROM on those
< 1743027279 975917 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, in this case by "non-small" I just mean not just like 128 bytes of RAM plus 2 kilobytes of ROM like the Atari 2600 has, but enough RAM that you actually want indexes longer than a byte sometimes
< 1743027335 503977 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yes – but my point is that you can store the address into data RAM and indirect via it, or you can store the address into program RAM (if you even have any) and have it decoded as part of the instruction, and the former is neater and doesn't seem to have any downsides by comparison?
< 1743027341 671173 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unless you need a double indirection
< 1743027502 737410 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: ok, I guess I was too strong above. probably you only want self-modifying code for a minority of indirect or indexing.
< 1743027518 897054 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the indirect addressing modes are good for most cases
> 1743028370 145909 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154575&oldid=154516 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+35) 10It can never pop, so the stack is effectively 2 symbols deep
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> 1743033746 454655 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lag system14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154587 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+2757) 10corate pag
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< 1743038331 713292 :ajal!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1743043067 494516 :Artea!~Lufia@artea.pt QUIT :Killed (ozone (No Spam))
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> 1743065501 876808 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03JHSHernandez-ZBH 5*  10New user account
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< 1743066251 817765 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :TODO: on 2025-04-01 set that month's password to "outside the scope of this wisdom entry"
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< 1743068475 704490 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hacked up a basic embedded domain-specific language for validating Sammy programs: https://gist.github.com/MostAwesomeDude/ddcd93b59f149c6d97a91c849e6a4071
< 1743068491 724885 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Gotta implement Kan extensions. Need sleep first.
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< 1743077832 579483 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
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> 1743078531 997936 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TerraScript14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154595 5* 03Macattacc 5* (+2050) 10Created page with "This is an esolang inspired by the game Terraria. The language itself uses the names of items from the game. This does NOT include blocks and furniture; strangely, it still includes torches and their variants. This DOES include weapons, torches, accessories and co
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> 1743099580 806740 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Transfinite program14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154611&oldid=87920 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+941) 10/* Uncountably infinite programs */
> 1743101998 673088 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Turing machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154612&oldid=127502 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+1702) 10
> 1743102625 880650 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Total function14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154613 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+1386) 10Created page with "A '''total function''' is a function which is defined for all inputs, that is, no input to the function will ever result in the answer ''undefined''. In the context of computer science, machines which halt (or equivalent definitions) on a given input are considere
> 1743102645 367055 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Partial function14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154614 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+28) 10Redirected page to [[Total function]]
> 1743102676 645675 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Partial14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154615 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+30) 10Redirected page to [[Partial function]]
> 1743102694 409438 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Total14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154616 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+28) 10Redirected page to [[Total function]]
< 1743104001 319672 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.3.8.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
> 1743104370 967892 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Total function14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154617&oldid=154613 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+62) 10
> 1743104430 907553 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Diophantine equation14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154618&oldid=154527 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+4) 10/* As a model of computation */
> 1743105566 655868 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Computable14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154619&oldid=153819 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+172) 10/* Non-examples */
> 1743106108 45488 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Transfinite program14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154620&oldid=154611 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+1313) 10
> 1743106320 788847 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sammy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154621&oldid=154198 5* 03Corbin 5* (+181) 10/* References */ Cruttwell's encoding will be important.
> 1743106452 892 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Turing machine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154622&oldid=154612 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+49) 10
> 1743106903 565011 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Clockwise Turing machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154623&oldid=154571 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+110) 10
> 1743107039 724387 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:JunebugEsolanging/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154624&oldid=154610 5* 03JunebugEsolanging 5* (-108) 10/* Things in Switchy! */
> 1743108827 512734 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154625&oldid=154577 5* 03Buckets 5* (+12) 10
> 1743108866 690167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154626&oldid=154579 5* 03Buckets 5* (+11) 10
> 1743108873 351272 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Aquas14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154627 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1581) 10Created page with "Aquas is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2021.  {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | Input || Gets an input and Sets it to the Current Variable. |- | {}OP#m || If the Input is The option equalling to The Curly braces with
> 1743109046 973098 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:GreenThePear/Sandbox14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154628 5* 03GreenThePear 5* (+4965) 10rgbl first draft
< 1743109099 22486 :dawids_!~dawids@109.76.41.109 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1743109204 47081 :dawids_!~dawids@109.76.41.109 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1743109487 21509 :dawids_!~dawids@109.76.41.109 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
> 1743112064 837524 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unsmiley14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154629 5* 03Rdococ 5* (+1077) 10Silly idea
> 1743112096 218634 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Rdococ14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154630&oldid=154369 5* 03Rdococ 5* (+68) 10
< 1743113704 18612 :dawids_!~dawids@109.76.41.109 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1743115769 678010 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Bleh, still stuck on Kan extensions, and out of time for now, but I bumped that paste with a better API: https://gist.github.com/MostAwesomeDude/ddcd93b59f149c6d97a91c849e6a4071
< 1743115858 415416 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :From the "Counting Finite Categories" slides, there's a way to encode finite categories as matrices of natural numbers, and so we can reuse a lot of standard graph-theory techniques here. (Technically a category is a hypergraph with path equivalences, but this only encodes hypergraphs and we have to promise to preserve equivalent paths.)
< 1743116363 148019 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I think that Sammy constructions are computable. Just arduous and possibly memory-intensive.
> 1743117392 725771 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sammy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154631&oldid=154621 5* 03Corbin 5* (+571) 10Still unusable, but implemented about as much as any other underspecified language.
< 1743117456 466041 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1743121672 778448 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Quit: Shut down temporarily for cleaning
< 1743124515 974076 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :http://sigbovik.org/2025/ posted
< 1743124562 608917 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1743125636 272682 :Guest46!~Guest46@syn-147-219-170-227.res.spectrum.com JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Guest46
< 1743125716 994362 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca JOIN #esolangs zzo38 :zzo38
< 1743126472 75596 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by zzo38_))
< 1743126483 147019 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca JOIN #esolangs zzo38 :zzo38
< 1743127614 215173 :Guest46!~Guest46@syn-147-219-170-227.res.spectrum.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1743128295 691022 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :A variant of DER can be "Multi-DER", which means any number of DER files concatenated together. Converting Multi-DER to BER is easy by adding a constant prefix and suffix; converting Multi-DER to DER is easy by adding a prefix (no suffix) with the length of the data (in bytes). In neither case is it necessary to parse or modify the existing data at all.
< 1743128341 312317 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Converting the JSONL, NDJSON, record-separator-delimited JSON, concatenated JSON, etc into ordinary JSON is a bit more complicated (especially concatenated JSON) because it will be necessary to add the commas.
< 1743131539 952269 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:f8c0:4558:f838:6f52 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1743132852 94713 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SCOOP14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154632&oldid=153613 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (-138) 10/* Programs */ Adding link to linked list example.
< 1743134778 306772 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1743135200 206414 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :maeve (she/her)
< 1743135698 909449 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
> 1743141221 294686 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BF instruction minimalization14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154633&oldid=145938 5* 03Xyzzy 5* (+609) 10
< 1743146155 342171 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1743146365 974382 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1743146722 619939 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror JOIN #esolangs strerror :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1743147213 449961 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Exploit with an esolang: https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2021/12/a-deep-dive-into-nso-zero-click.html
< 1743147246 871345 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :“JBIG2 doesn't have scripting capabilities, but when combined with a vulnerability, it does have the ability to emulate circuits of arbitrary logic gates operating on arbitrary memory. So why not just use that to build your own computer architecture and script that!? That's exactly what this exploit does.”
> 1743148104 416220 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/List of the users that is also in conwaylife.com14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154634&oldid=154585 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+2) 10
< 1743151494 472803 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1743151956 265070 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1743152777 147637 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net JOIN #esolangs sprout :sprout
< 1743154028 261497 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6095:11f3:6fa5:fb3d JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1743157878 440266 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: yep, that's a naturally occurring esolang 
> 1743160946 803784 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154635&oldid=154593 5* 03JHSHernandez-ZBH 5* (+221) 10
> 1743160967 157033 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154636&oldid=154635 5* 03JHSHernandez-ZBH 5* (+11) 10/* befunge */
> 1743161058 424286 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:JHSHernandez-ZBH14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154637 5* 03JHSHernandez-ZBH 5* (+214) 10Created page with "
  ];;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;] ]@ ; ;THIS IS BIBILTU-14; ;   ; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;'. ;[                    [;T+ ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;,4 [B', ',S',I', ',S',I',H']* [,'I,'B,'I,'L,'T,'U,'-,1a[ "
< 1743161742 924480 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
> 1743161930 290578 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154638&oldid=154553 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+660) 10
> 1743162014 920732 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited/Versions14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154639&oldid=154554 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+39) 10
< 1743164182 31036 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1743164417 314476 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Tpaefawzen 5*  10New user account
> 1743164739 635704 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154640&oldid=154600 5* 03Tpaefawzen 5* (+573) 10Tpaefawzen
< 1743164963 979200 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6095:11f3:6fa5:fb3d QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1743165356 98691 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
> 1743165949 572389 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07257-wrap brainfuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154641 5* 03Tpaefawzen 5* (+654) 10Created page with "'''257-wrap brainfuck''' is a [[brainfuck]] derivative published by Code Golf StackExchange user [https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/users/76323/l4m2 l4m2] in March 2022.  == Overview == L4m2 criticized that usual brainfuck language (who uses 256-value as d
> 1743166266 761445 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tpaefawzen14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154642 5* 03Tpaefawzen 5* (+164) 10Profile
< 1743169875 979538 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6095:11f3:6fa5:fb3d JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1743176329 497285 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Reduced Lambda Calculus14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154643 5* 03Yetyetty1234567890 5* (+313) 10Created page with "--- REDUCED LAMBDA CALCULUS --- 0  1  ( 0. ( _ _ ) ) _  ( 1. ( _ _ ) ) _ 0  1  ( 0. _ ) _  ( 1. _ ) _  # just let it operate on both v  ( _ ) _ # you only need 1 variable bc of deterministic { ( _ ) _  ==  ( v. _ ) _ } thats it if you think rea
< 1743176329 732609 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: Error: DBD::SQLite::db do failed: database or disk is full at ./plugins/karma_modify.pm line 68. 
> 1743176346 583100 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot: The error "DBD::SQLite::db do failed: database or disk is full" means your SQLite database is overflowing. Here's a quick fix: 1. **Check Disk Space:** Ensure you have enough free disk space. 2. **Delete Unnecessary Data:** Remove old or unused data from your database. 3. **Optimize Database:** Consider using indexes or other database optimization...
> 1743176346 583603 PRIVMSG #esolangs :techniques. 4. **Increase Database Size:** If you need more space, consider increasing the size of your database file. If the issue persists, provide more context about your database setup and the code around line 68.
< 1743176346 802198 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: Error: DBI connect('dbname=perlbot;host=192.168.32.1','perlbot',...) failed: connection to server at "192.168.32.1", port 5432 failed: Connection refused 	Is the server running on that host and accepting TCP/IP connections? at ./plugins/factoids.pm line 84. 
> 1743176367 772115 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot: The error message indicates that your Perl bot is unable to connect to the PostgreSQL database server at the specified address and port. Here's a quick troubleshooting checklist: 1. **Verify PostgreSQL Server:** Ensure the PostgreSQL server is running on the host `192.168.32.1`. 2. **Check Port:** Confirm that port 5432 is open and accessible. 3....
> 1743176367 774671 PRIVMSG #esolangs :**Database Credentials:** Double-check that the database credentials (`dbname`, `host`, `user`, `password`) are correct. 4. **Firewall:** Check if your firewall is blocking the connection. If the server is running and the port is open, the issue might be with the database credentials or the connection string.
< 1743176367 983880 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: Error: DBI connect('dbname=perlbot;host=192.168.32.1','perlbot',...) failed: connection to server at "192.168.32.1", port 5432 failed: Connection refused 	Is the server running on that host and accepting TCP/IP connections? at ./plugins/factoids.pm line 84. 
> 1743176389 122078 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot: The error message indicates that your Perl bot is unable to connect to the PostgreSQL database server at the specified address and port. Here's a quick troubleshooting checklist: 1. **Verify PostgreSQL Server:** Ensure the PostgreSQL server is running on the host `192.168.32.1`. 2. **Check Port:** Confirm that port 5432 is open and accessible. 3....
> 1743176389 122416 PRIVMSG #esolangs :**Database Credentials:** Double-check that the database credentials (`dbname`, `host`, `user`, `password`) are correct. 4. **Firewall:** Check if your firewall is blocking the connection. If the server is running and the port is open, the issue might be with the database credentials or the connection string.
< 1743176389 349696 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: Error: DBI connect('dbname=perlbot;host=192.168.32.1','perlbot',...) failed: connection to server at "192.168.32.1", port 5432 failed: Connection refused 	Is the server running on that host and accepting TCP/IP connections? at ./plugins/factoids.pm line 84. 
> 1743176410 524288 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot: The error message indicates that your Perl bot is unable to connect to the PostgreSQL database server at the specified address and port. Here's a quick troubleshooting checklist: 1. **Verify PostgreSQL Server:** Ensure the PostgreSQL server is running on the host `192.168.32.1`. 2. **Check Port:** Confirm that port 5432 is open and accessible. 3....
> 1743176410 527176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :**Database Credentials:** Double-check that the database credentials (`dbname`, `host`, `user`, `password`) are correct. 4. **Firewall:** Check if your firewall is blocking the connection. If the server is running and the port is open, the issue might be with the database credentials or the connection string.
< 1743176410 738043 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: Error: DBI connect('dbname=perlbot;host=192.168.32.1','perlbot',...) failed: connection to server at "192.168.32.1", port 5432 failed: Connection refused 	Is the server running on that host and accepting TCP/IP connections? at ./plugins/factoids.pm line 84. 
> 1743176431 920351 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot: The error message indicates that your Perl bot is unable to connect to the PostgreSQL database server at the specified address and port. Here's a quick troubleshooting checklist: 1. **Verify PostgreSQL Server:** Ensure the PostgreSQL server is running on the host `192.168.32.1`. 2. **Check Port:** Confirm that port 5432 is open and accessible. 3....
> 1743176431 920610 PRIVMSG #esolangs :**Database Credentials:** Double-check that the database credentials (`dbname`, `host`, `user`, `password`) are correct. 4. **Firewall:** Check if your firewall is blocking the connection. If the server is running and the port is open, the issue might be with the database credentials or the connection string.
< 1743176432 133181 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: Error: DBI connect('dbname=perlbot;host=192.168.32.1','perlbot',...) failed: connection to server at "192.168.32.1", port 5432 failed: Connection refused 	Is the server running on that host and accepting TCP/IP connections? at ./plugins/factoids.pm line 84. 
> 1743176453 317323 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot: The error message indicates that your Perl bot is unable to connect to the PostgreSQL database server at the specified address and port. Here's a quick troubleshooting checklist: 1. **Verify PostgreSQL Server:** Ensure the PostgreSQL server is running on the host `192.168.32.1`. 2. **Check Port:** Confirm that port 5432 is open and accessible. 3....
> 1743176453 317519 PRIVMSG #esolangs :**Database Credentials:** Double-check that the database credentials (`dbname`, `host`, `user`, `password`) are correct. 4. **Firewall:** Check if your firewall is blocking the connection. If the server is running and the port is open, the issue might be with the database credentials or the connection string.
< 1743176453 541165 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: Error: DBI connect('dbname=perlbot;host=192.168.32.1','perlbot',...) failed: connection to server at "192.168.32.1", port 5432 failed: Connection refused 	Is the server running on that host and accepting TCP/IP connections? at ./plugins/factoids.pm line 84. 
> 1743176474 736381 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot: The error message indicates that your Perl bot is unable to connect to the PostgreSQL database server at the specified address and port. Here's a quick troubleshooting checklist: 1. **Verify PostgreSQL Server:** Ensure the PostgreSQL server is running on the host `192.168.32.1`. 2. **Check Port:** Confirm that port 5432 is open and accessible. 3....
> 1743176474 736663 PRIVMSG #esolangs :**Database Credentials:** Double-check that the database credentials (`dbname`, `host`, `user`, `password`) are correct. 4. **Firewall:** Check if your firewall is blocking the connection. If the server is running and the port is open, the issue might be with the database credentials or the connection string.
< 1743176474 994453 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: Error: DBI connect('dbname=perlbot;host=192.168.32.1','perlbot',...) failed: connection to server at "192.168.32.1", port 5432 failed: Connection refused 	Is the server running on that host and accepting TCP/IP connections? at ./plugins/factoids.pm line 84. 
> 1743176496 194141 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot: The error message indicates that your Perl bot is unable to connect to the PostgreSQL database server at the specified address and port. Here's a quick troubleshooting checklist: 1. **Verify PostgreSQL Server:** Ensure the PostgreSQL server is running on the host `192.168.32.1`. 2. **Check Port:** Confirm that port 5432 is open and accessible. 3....
> 1743176496 195855 PRIVMSG #esolangs :**Database Credentials:** Double-check that the database credentials (`dbname`, `host`, `user`, `password`) are correct. 4. **Firewall:** Check if your firewall is blocking the connection. If the server is running and the port is open, the issue might be with the database credentials or the connection string.
< 1743176496 411816 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: Error: DBI connect('dbname=perlbot;host=192.168.32.1','perlbot',...) failed: connection to server at "192.168.32.1", port 5432 failed: Connection refused 	Is the server running on that host and accepting TCP/IP connections? at ./plugins/factoids.pm line 84. 
> 1743176517 645433 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot: The error message indicates that your Perl bot is unable to connect to the PostgreSQL database server at the specified address and port. Here's a quick troubleshooting checklist: 1. **Verify PostgreSQL Server:** Ensure the PostgreSQL server is running on the host `192.168.32.1`. 2. **Check Port:** Confirm that port 5432 is open and accessible. 3....
> 1743176517 645829 PRIVMSG #esolangs :**Database Credentials:** Double-check that the database credentials (`dbname`, `host`, `user`, `password`) are correct. 4. **Firewall:** Check if your firewall is blocking the connection. If the server is running and the port is open, the issue might be with the database credentials or the connection string.
< 1743176517 857556 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: Error: DBI connect('dbname=perlbot;host=192.168.32.1','perlbot',...) failed: connection to server at "192.168.32.1", port 5432 failed: Connection refused 	Is the server running on that host and accepting TCP/IP connections? at ./plugins/factoids.pm line 84. 
> 1743176539 130660 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot: The error message indicates that your Perl bot is unable to connect to the PostgreSQL database server at the specified address and port. Here's a quick troubleshooting checklist: 1. **Verify PostgreSQL Server:** Ensure the PostgreSQL server is running on the host `192.168.32.1`. 2. **Check Port:** Confirm that port 5432 is open and accessible. 3....
> 1743176539 131018 PRIVMSG #esolangs :**Database Credentials:** Double-check that the database credentials (`dbname`, `host`, `user`, `password`) are correct. 4. **Firewall:** Check if your firewall is blocking the connection. If the server is running and the port is open, the issue might be with the database credentials or the connection string.
< 1743176539 340289 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: Error: DBI connect('dbname=perlbot;host=192.168.32.1','perlbot',...) failed: connection to server at "192.168.32.1", port 5432 failed: Connection refused 	Is the server running on that host and accepting TCP/IP connections? at ./plugins/factoids.pm line 84. 
> 1743176560 570110 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot: The error message indicates that your Perl bot is unable to connect to the PostgreSQL database server at the specified address and port. Here's a quick troubleshooting checklist: 1. **Verify PostgreSQL Server:** Ensure the PostgreSQL server is running on the host `192.168.32.1`. 2. **Check Port:** Confirm that port 5432 is open and accessible. 3....
> 1743176560 570366 PRIVMSG #esolangs :**Database Credentials:** Double-check that the database credentials (`dbname`, `host`, `user`, `password`) are correct. 4. **Firewall:** Check if your firewall is blocking the connection. If the server is running and the port is open, the issue might be with the database credentials or the connection string.
< 1743176560 781455 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: Error: DBI connect('dbname=perlbot;host=192.168.32.1','perlbot',...) failed: connection to server at "192.168.32.1", port 5432 failed: Connection refused 	Is the server running on that host and accepting TCP/IP connections? at ./plugins/factoids.pm line 84. 
> 1743176581 899644 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot: The error message indicates that your Perl bot is unable to connect to the PostgreSQL database server at the specified address and port. Here's a quick troubleshooting checklist: 1. **Verify PostgreSQL Server:** Ensure the PostgreSQL server is running on the host `192.168.32.1`. 2. **Check Port:** Confirm that port 5432 is open and accessible. 3....
> 1743176581 899959 PRIVMSG #esolangs :**Database Credentials:** Double-check that the database credentials (`dbname`, `host`, `user`, `password`) are correct. 4. **Firewall:** Check if your firewall is blocking the connection. If the server is running and the port is open, the issue might be with the database credentials or the connection string.
< 1743176582 109999 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: Error: DBI connect('dbname=perlbot;host=192.168.32.1','perlbot',...) failed: connection to server at "192.168.32.1", port 5432 failed: Connection refused 	Is the server running on that host and accepting TCP/IP connections? at ./plugins/factoids.pm line 84. 
> 1743176603 241410 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot: The error message indicates that your Perl bot is unable to connect to the PostgreSQL database server at the specified address and port. Here's a quick troubleshooting checklist: 1. **Verify PostgreSQL Server:** Ensure the PostgreSQL server is running on the host `192.168.32.1`. 2. **Check Port:** Confirm that port 5432 is open and accessible. 3....
> 1743176603 241587 PRIVMSG #esolangs :**Database Credentials:** Double-check that the database credentials (`dbname`, `host`, `user`, `password`) are correct. 4. **Firewall:** Check if your firewall is blocking the connection. If the server is running and the port is open, the issue might be with the database credentials or the connection string.
< 1743176603 477672 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: Error: DBI connect('dbname=perlbot;host=192.168.32.1','perlbot',...) failed: connection to server at "192.168.32.1", port 5432 failed: Connection refused 	Is the server running on that host and accepting TCP/IP connections? at ./plugins/factoids.pm line 84. 
< 1743176618 336250 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wowza.
> 1743176624 617875 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot: The error message indicates that your Perl bot is unable to connect to the PostgreSQL database server at the specified address and port. Here's a quick troubleshooting checklist: 1. **Verify PostgreSQL Server:** Ensure the PostgreSQL server is running on the host `192.168.32.1`. 2. **Check Port:** Confirm that port 5432 is open and accessible. 3....
> 1743176624 618187 PRIVMSG #esolangs :**Database Credentials:** Double-check that the database credentials (`dbname`, `host`, `user`, `password`) are correct. 4. **Firewall:** Check if your firewall is blocking the connection. If the server is running and the port is open, the issue might be with the database credentials or the connection string.
< 1743176625 188005 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: Error: DBI connect('dbname=perlbot;host=192.168.32.1','perlbot',...) failed: connection to server at "192.168.32.1", port 5432 failed: Connection refused 	Is the server running on that host and accepting TCP/IP connections? at ./plugins/factoids.pm line 84. 
> 1743176646 478086 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot: The error message indicates that your Perl bot is unable to connect to the PostgreSQL database server at the specified address and port. Here's a quick troubleshooting checklist: 1. **Verify PostgreSQL Server:** Ensure the PostgreSQL server is running on the host `192.168.32.1`. 2. **Check Port:** Confirm that port 5432 is open and accessible. 3....
> 1743176646 481560 PRIVMSG #esolangs :**Database Credentials:** Double-check that the database credentials (`dbname`, `host`, `user`, `password`) are correct. 4. **Firewall:** Check if your firewall is blocking the connection. If the server is running and the port is open, the issue might be with the database credentials or the connection string.
< 1743176646 739287 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: Error: DBI connect('dbname=perlbot;host=192.168.32.1','perlbot',...) failed: connection to server at "192.168.32.1", port 5432 failed: Connection refused 	Is the server running on that host and accepting TCP/IP connections? at ./plugins/factoids.pm line 84. 
> 1743176667 890003 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot: The error message indicates that your Perl bot is unable to connect to the PostgreSQL database server at the specified address and port. Here's a quick troubleshooting checklist: 1. **Verify PostgreSQL Server:** Ensure the PostgreSQL server is running on the host `192.168.32.1`. 2. **Check Port:** Confirm that port 5432 is open and accessible. 3....
> 1743176667 890184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :**Database Credentials:** Double-check that the database credentials (`dbname`, `host`, `user`, `password`) are correct. 4. **Firewall:** Check if your firewall is blocking the connection. If the server is running and the port is open, the issue might be with the database credentials or the connection string.
< 1743176668 146255 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: Error: DBI connect('dbname=perlbot;host=192.168.32.1','perlbot',...) failed: connection to server at "192.168.32.1", port 5432 failed: Connection refused 	Is the server running on that host and accepting TCP/IP connections? at ./plugins/factoids.pm line 84. 
> 1743176689 312110 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot: The error message indicates that your Perl bot is unable to connect to the PostgreSQL database server at the specified address and port. Here's a quick troubleshooting checklist: 1. **Verify PostgreSQL Server:** Ensure the PostgreSQL server is running on the host `192.168.32.1`. 2. **Check Port:** Confirm that port 5432 is open and accessible. 3....
> 1743176689 314400 PRIVMSG #esolangs :**Database Credentials:** Double-check that the database credentials (`dbname`, `host`, `user`, `password`) are correct. 4. **Firewall:** Check if your firewall is blocking the connection. If the server is running and the port is open, the issue might be with the database credentials or the connection string.
< 1743176689 526196 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: Error: DBI connect('dbname=perlbot;host=192.168.32.1','perlbot',...) failed: connection to server at "192.168.32.1", port 5432 failed: Connection refused 	Is the server running on that host and accepting TCP/IP connections? at ./plugins/factoids.pm line 84. 
< 1743176697 608164 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services.libera.chat MODE #esolangs +o :fizzie
> 1743176710 678649 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot: The error message indicates that your Perl bot is unable to connect to the PostgreSQL database server at the specified address and port. Here's a quick troubleshooting checklist: 1. **Verify PostgreSQL Server:** Ensure the PostgreSQL server is running on the host `192.168.32.1`. 2. **Check Port:** Confirm that port 5432 is open and accessible. 3....
> 1743176710 679110 PRIVMSG #esolangs :**Database Credentials:** Double-check that the database credentials (`dbname`, `host`, `user`, `password`) are correct. 4. **Firewall:** Check if your firewall is blocking the connection. If the server is running and the port is open, the issue might be with the database credentials or the connection string.
< 1743176710 938345 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: Error: DBI connect('dbname=perlbot;host=192.168.32.1','perlbot',...) failed: connection to server at "192.168.32.1", port 5432 failed: Connection refused 	Is the server running on that host and accepting TCP/IP connections? at ./plugins/factoids.pm line 84. 
< 1743176711 511144 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi MODE #esolangs +q :perlbot!*@*
> 1743176732 67755 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot: The error message indicates that your Perl bot is unable to connect to the PostgreSQL database server at the specified address and port. Here's a quick troubleshooting checklist: 1. **Verify PostgreSQL Server:** Ensure the PostgreSQL server is running on the host `192.168.32.1`. 2. **Check Port:** Confirm that port 5432 is open and accessible. 3....
> 1743176732 68006 PRIVMSG #esolangs :**Database Credentials:** Double-check that the database credentials (`dbname`, `host`, `user`, `password`) are correct. 4. **Firewall:** Check if your firewall is blocking the connection. If the server is running and the port is open, the issue might be with the database credentials or the connection string.
< 1743176752 470729 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :A little impolite, but the fastest thing I could think of, since I think all the easy ways to stop esolangs from replying would cause it to produce an error message.
< 1743176821 426921 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I wonder if this is the first recorded *accidental* botloop on the channel.)
< 1743176823 915866 :errilaz_!~errilaz@static.157.80.99.88.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1743176922 518057 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd unquiet it now but I'm worried the next wiki-recent-changes update would start it again (that seems to have been the original trigger) so I'll leave it like this until I have some free time to put in something more fine-tuned.
< 1743176973 215278 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1743177032 326926 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well that's a good one
< 1743177093 806755 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: the problem is that the first line says "database or disk is full"
< 1743177143 331193 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, that was from perlbot
< 1743177147 852588 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6095:11f3:6fa5:fb3d QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1743177196 414783 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :simcop2387: ^ you may want to check that out
< 1743177224 951931 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :also I'm sorry, I asked to bring perlbot here so that's partly my fault
< 1743177329 715011 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: it doesn't look to me like a wiki change was the trigger, but it could be
< 1743177369 156810 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I should test it outside the channel
< 1743177437 897318 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :From the perspective of my client, there was a note about the creation of the page "Reduced Lambda Calculus" at 15:38:49, and the first disk-full response from perlbot on the same second, that's all I can say.
< 1743177442 929010 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: I think there are two problems here,
< 1743177482 763368 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :one is that perlbot has some kind of database error and responds to any ordinary query with that, so I recommend you to keep perlbot quieted in this channel for now
< 1743177499 664434 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :That one is also different in that it's from karma_modify.pm, rather than factoids.pm like the others.
< 1743177522 968002 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the other problem is that perlbot usually responds when addressed, and so does esolangs, and something made perlbot reply to esolangs which resulted in a botloop, and I don't understand what started it\
< 1743177528 625971 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :So I expect it might've been due to the `--` in the wiki change to begin with.
< 1743177566 845675 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see!
< 1743177602 208203 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so when there's no database error, would esolangs triggering perlbot's karma thing result in a loop?
< 1743177606 272241 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :we'll have to test that later
< 1743177652 87178 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi MODE #esolangs -o :fizzie
< 1743177693 545042 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Botloops are very on-brand here, so I think it was rather nice to see one again.
< 1743177734 190932 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also the inference speed of the LLM made this one run kinda slowly.
< 1743177826 651312 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, but a faster bot like jconn could print a double-hyphen just as much. I know jconn is dead for good, and I'm glad, but there could be other bots like that
< 1743177905 359790 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: shouldn't esolang add some prefix to its lines to avoid triggering bots though, like a \x0F ?
< 1743178019 481688 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean jevalbot should too, and I should remember this the next time I write a bot that can emit PRIVMSG
< 1743178072 830843 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It probably should, and I don't even have the "it's written in Befunge, that's too hard" excuse this case.
< 1743178407 352544 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6095:11f3:6fa5:fb3d JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1743178789 87770 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1743180679 962095 :nitrix!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1743181089 891703 :nitrix!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix JOIN #esolangs nitrix :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1743182255 425604 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1743182992 882631 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6095:11f3:6fa5:fb3d QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1743183569 907770 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6095:11f3:6fa5:fb3d JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1743184955 661805 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6095:11f3:6fa5:fb3d QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1743185926 563299 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6095:11f3:6fa5:fb3d JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1743186168 160979 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: What is Kolmogorov complexity? Explain for a layperson.
> 1743186243 937024 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Imagine you have a piece of text. Kolmogorov complexity is a way to measure how much information is needed to describe that text. It's like asking, "How many steps would it take to write down this text?" The smaller the number of steps, the lower the complexity. Think of it like this: a simple text like "Hello" has low complexity, while a complex...
> 1743186243 938310 PRIVMSG #esolangs :text like a novel has high complexity.
< 1743186278 238473 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: What is Kolmogorov complexity? Explain for a theoretical computer scientist.
> 1743186353 719509 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Kolmogorov complexity measures the minimal amount of information needed to describe a given object. It's essentially the length of the shortest program that can generate that object. A high Kolmogorov complexity implies a complex object, while a low complexity suggests a simple, easily describable object. For a theoretical computer scientist, it's...
> 1743186353 721704 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a fundamental concept in algorithmic information theory, used to analyze the inherent complexity of data and algorithms.
< 1743186941 783339 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: What is Kolmogorov complexity? Explain for a software developer.
> 1743187018 174268 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Kolmogorov complexity is a measure of how much information is needed to describe a piece of data. Imagine you have a program that can describe a piece of data. The complexity of that data is how much information you need to write the program to describe it. For example, a simple string like "abababababababababababababababababababab" has low...
> 1743187018 178591 PRIVMSG #esolangs :complexity because it's easy to describe with a short program. A complex data structure like a tree would have higher complexity.
< 1743187042 988182 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: What is Kolmogorov complexity? Explain for a programming-language designer/theorist/implementor.
< 1743187115 43407 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder if "explain" is causing RAG to return less useful context, or causing the model to de-emphasize the context.
> 1743187120 34762 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Kolmogorov complexity measures the minimal amount of information needed to describe a given object. For a programming language designer, it's a crucial concept for understanding the inherent "complexity" of a program's structure. A low Kolmogorov complexity suggests a program is concise and easily describable, while a high complexity indicates a...
> 1743187120 35042 PRIVMSG #esolangs :program is intricate and difficult to represent. This can inform design choices, like optimizing for efficient code generation or understanding the inherent limitations of a language.
< 1743187136 733978 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: What is Kolmogorov complexity?
> 1743187211 507881 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Kolmogorov complexity measures the minimum number of bits needed to describe a given object. It's a way to quantify how "computable" an object is. A simple example: the string "abababababababababababababababababababab" has low complexity because it can be generated by a simple loop. The more complex the object, the more bits are needed to describe...
> 1743187211 510349 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it.
< 1743187272 618159 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Huh, RAG must just not be returning much. I'm done for now; thanks for humoring me.
> 1743187793 901034 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pljic++!14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154644 5* 03Mmmph! 5* (+1678) 10Created page with "'''Pljic++!''' is a programming language created by [[User:Mmmph!]] as another thing to do.  == Overview == Pljic++! code is executed two characters at a time. The first Character of a command is the command type, and the second is the command data, which is represented
> 1743187825 511892 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Mmmph!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154645&oldid=126257 5* 03Mmmph! 5* (+19) 10
> 1743188264 115006 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Mmmph!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154646&oldid=154645 5* 03Mmmph! 5* (+30) 10a clue
< 1743189145 761824 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :the matrix is glitching
> 1743189965 569195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pljic++!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154647&oldid=154644 5* 03Mmmph! 5* (+46) 10subtraction is now definitely possible
> 1743190040 887407 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pljic++!14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154648&oldid=154647 5* 03Mmmph! 5* (+5) 10specification of the increment amount
> 1743190617 788676 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Linear bounded automata14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154649 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+38) 10Redirected page to [[Linear bounded automaton]]
> 1743190764 308580 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pushdown automata14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154650 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+33) 10Redirected page to [[Push-down automaton]]
> 1743192286 398522 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07L-system14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154651 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+8069) 10create page
< 1743192327 14358 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1743192338 456706 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the bots managed to create a botloop on their own, I'm amazed
> 1743192370 135392 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07L-system14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154652&oldid=154651 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+87) 10/* See also */
> 1743192406 115508 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Luigi14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154653&oldid=35941 5* 03Stkptr 5* (-19) 10
< 1743192440 42186 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have a function ASN1_Encoder*asn1_create_encoder(FILE*) but I want to add another function that also creates a ASN1_Encoder object but with different arguments, which are the ASN1_Value structure to write into, and the class, type, and flags (whether or not to automatically sort the data). What should this function be called?
> 1743192510 166960 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07L-system14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154654&oldid=154652 5* 03Stkptr 5* (-3) 10/* Computational class */
< 1743192918 566674 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: the existing name makes the new function hard to name; names like asn1_encode_to_file and asn1_encode_to_value would be more symmetrical
> 1743193009 420698 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154655&oldid=154625 5* 03Buckets 5* (+10) 10
> 1743193037 685313 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154656&oldid=154626 5* 03Buckets 5* (+9) 10
> 1743193048 529839 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07XFS14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154657 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1222) 10Created page with "{{Stub}} XFS is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2023.  "" means 72 in this Esolang.  {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- |  || 0. |- |  || 4. |- |  || 8. |- |  || 1. |- |  || 13. |- |  || 9. |- |  || 7. |- |  || 11. |- |  ||
> 1743193125 57566 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07XFS14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154658&oldid=154657 5* 03Buckets 5* (+32) 10
> 1743193153 985012 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07XFS14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154659&oldid=154658 5* 03Buckets 5* (+0) 10
> 1743193373 961650 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07L-system14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154660&oldid=154654 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+732) 10/* Computational class */
> 1743196297 415948 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07L-system14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154661&oldid=154660 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+444) 10
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> 1743197097 750253 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07L-system14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154662&oldid=154661 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+1310) 10/* Examples */
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< 1743199041 179950 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: However, the function names starting with "asn1_encode_" are used for operating with an existing ASN1_Encoder object to encode specific values into the file.
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< 1743199231 435071 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: ah, "asn1_start_encoding_…" then
< 1743199262 253176 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, that seems like good, then.
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> 1743204045 993169 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07L-system14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154663&oldid=154662 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+781) 10/* Examples */ Add stochastic example
> 1743204732 132295 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07L-system14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154664&oldid=154663 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+54) 10/* Python implementation (D2L) */ Fix D2L step function
> 1743205578 794433 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Stkptr14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154665&oldid=154285 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+390) 10
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> 1743206619 11215 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SCOOP/Linked List14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154667 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (+4284) 10A SCOOP implementation of a doubly linked list type with example usage.
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< 1743209334 474796 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I've been watching Claude Plays Pokémon a lot recently (although it was more interesting yesterday than today), and realised that it's actually an esolang and possibly Turing-complete
< 1743209383 55092 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :as a summary of how it works, it's basically an LLM connected to a Gameboy emulator and a text editor (both of which are modified to be drivable by LLM output), together with instructions telling it to use the text editor to record its thought process in certain ways
< 1743209420 234955 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it got me thinking – this is pretty similar to using an LLM like a Turing machine head to drive a tape, and that could be TC off relatively simple instructions
< 1743209446 474664 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(if they were simple enough the LLM would be unlikely to make a mistake, and I think you can fit a universal Turing machine into that level of complexity)
< 1743209934 574296 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :note that this probably isn't a good way to design a language, which is why it's an esolang
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> 1743211799 219728 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07L-system14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154670&oldid=154664 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+1084) 10/* Definition */
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< 1743227589 330808 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: in the limit, if you fix one LLM and sample it with temperature 0, it'll have deterministic gadgets (that can be found by working backwards from the desired output logits)
< 1743227640 436813 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :But that's just a normal turing machine with extra steps
< 1743227996 991065 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :If the transformer takes the whole notepad/tape as input, then it's almost surely still TC, but it's not obvious how to prove that since the gadget sees a different input each step
< 1743229805 344644 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: the transformer can't take the whole tape as input, it only has finite context
< 1743229836 223289 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Claude Plays Pokémon is trying to work around that issue with bank-switching, which is not going well
< 1743230376 34293 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: well in theory a transformer takes any length input. It just has more trouble recalling any specific part of a huge input, and (more pertinently) uses more GPU memory than what Anthropic has
< 1743230884 961372 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is it playing the same version as the Twitch Plays? Twitch didn't need that much memory (or internal consistency) to finish their game, iirc
< 1743230956 174439 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: very close, it's been given a color patch that makes it easier for it to see most things on the map (but has been causing some issues due to making it harder to see cut trees)
< 1743231003 762544 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, Twitch commenters at least seem to understand basic rules of navigation like "if you cross from one area to another, then go in the opposite direction, you normally return to the original area"
< 1743231067 104546 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :navigation becomes a lot harder if you don't make that assumption, and Claude doesn't seem to, meaning that it's trying to navigate a directed rather than undirected world graph (and has trouble identifying the same place as being the same, sometimes it goes to the same place twice but thinks it's two different places)
< 1743231259 910045 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK yes, it's playing Red. And officially sanctioned by Anthropic, that's interesting
< 1743231365 925356 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: that's not too surprising as animals have special brain structures for doing that, and Claude probably doesn't
< 1743231447 221714 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :(place cells and grid cells)
< 1743232540 939278 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
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< 1743232624 220929 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1743233948 360216 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: right, my point is that the Twitch commentators had an unfair advantage (and a second unfair advantage in being able to see the screen properly)
< 1743234060 183199 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :games sometimes do the opposite to mess with people... deliberately break object permanence.
< 1743234115 859970 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yep
< 1743234149 697635 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think humans could adapt to a world without object permanence, but they don't live in such a world, so there's little reason to do so
< 1743234180 213504 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's hard to imagine such a world tbh
< 1743234285 39652 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, as a physical reality, whee human bodies would exist.
< 1743234479 156171 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess we have the concept of magic that can do it. So you don't break the rules of physics everywhere, but very selectively.
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> 1743234928 564741 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Esomini 5*  10New user account
> 1743235370 140393 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Draft of EtPL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154671&oldid=154560 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+227) 10
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< 1743235571 845683 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Claude is on a bike now, and trying to move 1 square to reach a door, but has trouble understanding that bikes move 2 squares at a time
< 1743235580 900568 :halloy5388!~halloy538@n175-32-209-194.mas22.nsw.optusnet.com.au NICK :ceridwen15
< 1743235716 82927 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder how human brains figure that out, it's unlikely that we had discrete parity problems in the evolutionary environment
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< 1743235905 565191 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, does crossing rivers count?
< 1743235905 606901 :ceridwen15!~ceridwen1@n175-32-209-194.mas22.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN #esolangs * :ceridwen15
< 1743236169 408438 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Perhaps. I don't know if hominids crossed large rivers though. Bonobos split off from chimpanzees because the Congo river widened, and neither species could cross it.
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< 1743236179 331858 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I mean the idea that if you crossed a river twice you *probably* wasted a whole lot of energy. But you can't avoid crossing it once if you need something from the other side.)
< 1743236201 178336 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(simplified obviously)
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< 1743236263 103263 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Stuff that moves in discrete intervals though... yeah that feels highly artificial.
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< 1743236290 313988 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :That said, the "AI" has discrete inputs so it kind of should cope ;-)
< 1743236349 370380 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: Also, parity phenomena are something we learn. Like, there's this puzzle of a knight on a chessboard with two opposite corners removed, asking for a tour. And I'm sure that this actually stumps people.
< 1743236375 824723 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :We do not live in a natural environment anymore.
< 1743236543 924408 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :TBH this sounds better (more honest) than DeepMind cherry-picking their showcases to be things that their "AI"s are actually good at.
< 1743236696 923809 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: yes, but Pokémon Red can be played by children without that kind of learning (and might perhaps be the first introduction to parity for some of them)
< 1743236748 954192 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :a human will keep track of the squares they can get to and soon realize that 3/4 aren't covered.
< 1743236786 185688 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :more object permanence I guess.. the game won't suddenly be different just because we've reached the same square a second time.
< 1743236822 527168 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think we also leanr that trying random things to see if something interesting or new happens is a problem solving strategy.
< 1743236912 670122 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I guess we do have a working memory that isn't just a hacky afterthought
> 1743240563 579536 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SETANDCOUNT14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154672&oldid=144306 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+15) 10/* Introduction & Syntax */
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> 1743244602 399739 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BitChanger Busy beaver/Proof14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154674&oldid=153609 5* 03Int-e 5* (-11625) 10remove unfinished manual proof effort for size 15 holdouts per discussion on the parent page
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> 1743249577 706144 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154677&oldid=154064 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+929) 10/* Hey! */ new section
> 1743249778 497030 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07R + S14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154678 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+931) 10Created page with "R+S is a very simple esoteric programing language. 
 It is reversible and can't be turing complete because it cant have infinite memory.  its only memory is a finite width register of some arbitrary amount of bits  === Instructions: === + increments the 
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< 1743252647 774124 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi *
< 1743252648 385062 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :☺
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> 1743256158 532246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FunnyLang14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154680 5* 03AlmostGalactic 5* (+8190) 10Created page with "= FunnyLang =  '''Note''': This language is heavily inspired by [https://gitlab.com/tsoding/porth Porth] by Tsoding.  FunnyLang is a simple, stack-based, interpreted language implemented in Python. It uses postfix (Reverse Polish) notation for operations and su
> 1743256349 642855 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154681&oldid=123532 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+155) 10
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> 1743260040 716623 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SETANDCOUNT14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154684&oldid=154683 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+28) 10/* Some examples */
< 1743262701 834297 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e, strerror: Technically we live in a world without object permanence; large objects merely tend to have inertia as a matter of statistics.
< 1743262809 931168 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm using it as a cognitive concept in this context
< 1743262883 431100 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so less about how the world functions and more about how we model it and form expectations about it
< 1743263663 767278 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. But, like, we can be misled in both directions. Stage magicians make a career out of fooling people into thinking that an object has not moved.
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< 1743263878 772227 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I dunno. It's an old discussion in neuroscience. Another fun example is when a cat comes into a house with two doors X and Y; the cat crosses X, crosses Y, goes *around the house*, and crosses X again. They look around as if they expected to be somewhere new. Are they being stupid or thinking in 4D?
< 1743264135 839250 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I really liked the video game Antichamber, which glues together a bunch of 3D rooms with a 4D topology. Objects are permanent, but there are many situations where an object's visibility is unintuitive due to 4D effects.
> 1743264479 408328 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Esdraslov 5*  10New user account
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< 1743264858 61845 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: You might be interested in the Maupertuisian approach to learning, where a learner is merely trying to minimize the Maupertuis action arising from comparing observations of reality to its predictions. At human scales, object permanence is just a description which lines up with statistics and thus has low action.
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< 1743265835 905191 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I'm not trying to claim that object permanence is totally accurate. I even thought of (but didn't mention) magicians and how they play around with it before you brought them up.
< 1743265996 110774 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: No worries. I'm not arguing against you, just adding nuance. I thought it was an interesting conversation.
< 1743265999 547298 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, funny. I've played Antichamber. I thought of it as a portal-based game like Descent and didn't really think about the topology beyond that.
< 1743266021 796521 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Ah, it's the thing where IRC doesn't carry tone.
< 1743266058 616626 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ha! That's quite interesting; I never thought of its relation to Portal before!
< 1743266133 486533 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It was a bit confusing to navigate. (Portals in Descent and generally in games (mostly 3d but you can do this in 2d too): levels were a bunch of cubes, which had coordinates, and each face would link to the next cube. So you could completely violate physics too.)
< 1743266149 50590 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Portal the game was novel in that it made it into a game mechanic.
< 1743266192 62398 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, I see. So myhouse.wad would be another portal-based game, even though the goal is explicitly to introduce a non-Euclidean geometry and use it for narrative.
< 1743266236 154760 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :IIRC Antichamber *mostly* adhered to the rule that going back where you came from would return you to where you came from... though I seem to recall a few exceptions? It's been a while.
< 1743266420 562972 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm I should say "cubes" because the faces didn't have to be squares nor be orthogonal.
< 1743266601 508729 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :In Antichamber the thing I enjoyed most was the various ways to fill levels with cubes. I think I crashed the game a couple of times too :-) (I definitely made the GPU suffer)
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< 1743266818 396464 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think I ever built a healthy relationship with the cubes. I only really learned the speedrunning techniques for them, and any% skips most of the game.
< 1743266873 297172 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hah. I've never looked into speedruns for Antichamber.
< 1743266934 8591 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It will ruin your respect for some of the puzzles. Speedrunners basically never climb the tower, even in the All Stickers category.
< 1743266985 775398 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, just like in Valve's Source games, Antichamber has some fun cube-climbing techniques; once the cube gun's warmed up, it can be used to traverse rooms in arbitrary paths.
< 1743266995 35488 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm. for the most part the puzzles are only interesting up to the point where you can get arbitrary many cubes.
< 1743267080 858716 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :In any case, speaking generically... speedrunning games and playing them normally tend to be very different things, I'm used to that. :)
< 1743267209 153388 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've seen Portal speedruns, for example. 4 or so normal levels (though amazingly fast, thowing boxes instead of walking and placing them and such things) and then they go out of bounds... hilarious. Oh also bunny-hopping backwards because for some reason that's faster than going forwards.
< 1743267346 703018 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And I guess the craziest thing is how they beat GLaDOS... somehow keeping a portal open to a room with turrets, so that the turret shoots at them while they're running towards the boss, hitting it three times which the game counts for releasing the three cores...
< 1743267380 442667 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So... yeah I'd expect crazy tricks that are utterly unlike normal gameplay. :)
> 1743267400 50008 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154687&oldid=154679 5* 0347 5* (-92) 10people can read the dang infobox
< 1743267453 854176 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't have any videos of myself running it, but any% involves glitching into the end puzzle almost immediately, usually skipping at least one upgrade, and then executing the end of the game. The PC version is sensitive to window-resize lag, which can be used to clip through doors.
< 1743267480 214885 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that sounds about right
< 1743267714 689134 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Antichamber is one of the rare games where the developer actually has a positive opinion of us, which is why I'm so enthused about it. A lot of indie games are cute and fun, but this one also has an in-game timer and a developer who tells us that it's okay to not use the in-game timer.
< 1743267981 257247 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is that really so rare? I mean speedrunners tend to be quite enthusiastic about the games the play, so as long as the glitches are rare enough that they won't affect casual players... I
< 1743268000 949797 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :'ve seen quite a few developers who will not address those.
> 1743268049 680501 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154688&oldid=154687 5* 03Corbin 5* (+15) 10Trivial complexity class.
< 1743268129 250574 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess my sample is biased because a lot of it comes from IGN's "Devs React to Speedruns" series.
< 1743268160 613510 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it depends on the nature of the bug and the ease of patching. In Horizon (both of 'em) and the rebooted Sypro trilogy, both using some Unreal/Unity-style world-builder, there's quite a few out-of-bounds that they won't ever fix. But they did fix infinite jumping in Horizon Forbidden West, which was a frame-perfect animation bug.
< 1743268240 431207 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I get really bad vertigo from going OoB, so learning the Forbidden West OoB wasn't fun. It saves a minute but involves swimming in glitched water through a hall of mirrors above a lake of lava.
> 1743268390 105577 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CDE2+14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154689 5* 03Esdraslov 5* (+2490) 10Created page with "'''CDE2+''' is an esolang by Esdraslov  == Commands == In CDE2+, commands parameters are separated by a T and a command ends on a E. {| class="wikitable" !Command !Action |- | style="text-align:center"|MV |Moves the value in parameter 1 to the cell specifie
> 1743268584 301462 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CDE2+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154690&oldid=154689 5* 03Esdraslov 5* (+24) 10
> 1743269614 30804 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154691&oldid=154688 5* 0347 5* (+17) 10
> 1743270767 827463 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:BitChanger Busy beaver14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154692&oldid=154504 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+45) 10
> 1743270916 566876 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Reversible Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154693&oldid=154470 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+40) 10
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> 1743278012 439902 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07```14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154695&oldid=106927 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+637) 10Introduced an examples section comprehending three incipial members, these constituting a repeating cat program, a truth-machine, and an instruction skipper.
> 1743278077 115826 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07```14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154696&oldid=154695 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+177) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the ``` programming language on GitHub and altered the Unimplemented category tag to Implemented.
> 1743278079 947031 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CDE2+14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154697&oldid=154690 5* 03Esdraslov 5* (+107) 10
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> 1743280442 330777 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unsmiley14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154698&oldid=154629 5* 03Rdococ 5* (+446) 10Make it theoretically implementable
> 1743280756 458264 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SCOOP14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154699&oldid=154632 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (+8) 10Adding template WIP.
> 1743280802 739837 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unsmiley14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154700&oldid=154698 5* 03Rdococ 5* (-12) 10/* Semantics */
> 1743280824 670498 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unsmiley14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154701&oldid=154700 5* 03Rdococ 5* (-2) 10/* Ruleset */ promote to full section
< 1743281410 928310 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Gotta catch a bus, but I hacked out the background parts of that blog post. Everything so far is hopefully uncontroversial: https://gist.github.com/MostAwesomeDude/32244043b6b2cea55693a04f286bf1ec
< 1743281566 383288 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think you might be using "quotient" incorrectly – you are quotienting by the equivalence relation implied by a subset of algorithms, not by the algorithms themselves (which are equivalence classes) – and you seem to be applying that relationship to subprograms too, without explicitly stating that
< 1743281691 919176 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also you haven't defined what notion of equivalence algorithms use, which I think is the most complicated / subtle part of the post
< 1743281714 666102 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it isn't function equivalence because otherwise there would be no difference between an algorithm and a function
< 1743281745 173782 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it might be intended to be intentionally open, but in that case you will need to place some constraints on it (e.g. that it is a subset of function equivalence)
< 1743281787 484920 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.3.8.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :
< 1743281815 360803 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I used to work at a university, and our CS theory seminars worked like this: someone would present the work they were working on, spend 10 minutes presenting the definitions, then we'd spend the other 50 mintues discussing the definitions and whether they were correct, and never reach the rest of the research
< 1743281830 102606 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and this seems like it might have been genuinely more valuable than using the seminar time as intended
< 1743281861 157089 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :CS results are often fairly easy to reproduce if you know what definitions are being used, and in particular, the set of definitions that are relevant
> 1743282955 814435 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154702&oldid=154319 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+9138) 10/* Summary */ Literature dump
> 1743282974 90021 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154703&oldid=154702 5* 03Stkptr 5* (-1233) 10Remove part of head
> 1743284500 78010 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FunnyLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154704&oldid=154682 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+79) 10
> 1743284833 391605 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CDE2+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154705&oldid=154697 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+163) 10
> 1743284932 21538 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07HeXPlik14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154706 5* 03Esdraslov 5* (+2817) 10Created page with "'''HeXPlik''' is (kind of) based on [[Befunge]] and made by [[User:Esdraslov]]  == Commands == '''HeXPlik''' is cell-based, and the cell pointer moves to the next cell everytime a write action is made.  Please note that any ... should be replaced.  '''HeX
> 1743285173 570334 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154707&oldid=154655 5* 03Buckets 5* (+12) 10
> 1743285198 342538 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154708&oldid=154656 5* 03Buckets 5* (+11) 10
> 1743285214 969817 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zypp!14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154709 5* 03Buckets 5* (+784) 10Created page with "Zypp! Is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2022.  {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | 1A.B. || Replace all Instances of A to B. |- | 2C. || Create a cell C. |- | 3D. || Go to Cell D. |- | 4E. ||  Delete Cell E. |- | 5H.I.J.
> 1743285238 240955 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zypp!14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154710&oldid=154709 5* 03Buckets 5* (+3) 10
< 1743285688 486012 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Ah, that's fair. I guess I should take a completely different approach since I want to talk to programmers, not to people who understand CS.
< 1743285696 543896 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And yes, all the words are incorrect.
> 1743285942 3406 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07```14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154711&oldid=154696 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+3050) 10Supplemented information concerning the architecture.
> 1743286037 63573 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07```14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154712&oldid=154711 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+15) 10Rectified the anchor references in the memory layout.
< 1743287151 925908 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.3.8.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1743287192 154813 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Actually, changed my mind and deleted it.
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> 1743292897 657932 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07```14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154713&oldid=154712 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+1) 10Amended an orthographic mistake.
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> 1743298212 813698 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154714&oldid=154703 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+1344) 10/* Summary */
> 1743298725 545203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Shazun bhasfu 5*  10New user account
> 1743299179 200035 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SECIAEQBNJMPDIFZR14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154715 5* 03Esdraslov 5* (+2101) 10Created page with "SECIAEQBNJMPDIFZR (SEt C to a If A is EQuals to B aNd JuMP to D if b is ZeRo) is a [[OISC]] by [[User:Esdraslov]].  == How to code ==  === Printing ===  We need the usage of some variables like IOI (Input Output Index) to make our code better an
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> 1743308804 943989 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154716&oldid=154691 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+222) 10
> 1743309218 562781 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SECIAEQBNJMPDIFZR14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154717&oldid=154715 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+47) 104 billion addresses each with 4 billion possible values is finite
> 1743309382 882574 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Insanity14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154718&oldid=116350 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+54) 10
> 1743309441 413615 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07General blindfolded arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154719&oldid=154714 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+89) 10/* Example languages */
> 1743309592 570467 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Unsmiley14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154720 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+285) 10Created page with "== Computability ==  Since this can arbitrarily modify its own specification, could it be [[uncomputable]]? What are the limits of its self rewriting? Could it add a command which solves the halting problem? ~~~~"
> 1743310574 391981 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snowflake14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154721&oldid=105725 5* 03Ais523 5* (+32) 10see also [[Unsmiley]]
> 1743310581 72905 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unsmiley14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154722&oldid=154701 5* 03Ais523 5* (+33) 10see also [[Snowflake]]
< 1743311295 75379 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: How's this? https://gist.github.com/MostAwesomeDude/f31eff9e483a9e0223f14fb629c55755 I think it properly taunts the reader while assuring them that they don't understand what's going on.
< 1743311456 528577 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I'm not convinced BF is an A rather than a P, especially if you can't go left of the starting location
< 1743311534 674732 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: It's got a lovely monoid which produces a pile of symmetries. A compiler into BF has to choose e.g. how to move values from one cell to another.
< 1743311563 947985 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: oh, things like [>+<-] versus [->+<]
< 1743311576 448462 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I forgot that symmetry
< 1743311604 552687 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. Those give non-trivial automorphisms. Malbolge doesn't have anything quite so forgiving, because the automorphism has to act on the encrypted text.
< 1743311641 789230 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Thue as an F also seems like a stretch – I think you can meaningfully define the computational class of a Thue program, which seems wrong for an F
< 1743311691 226663 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, I meant complexity class and said the wrong thing
< 1743311752 76332 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess my intuition is "if the language lets you define both bubble sort and merge sort, and there's a way to tell them apart, the language is not operating only on functions"
< 1743311786 379499 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in any case, I think algorithms versus programs is a continuum rather than two clear categories, depending on how much symmetry there is
< 1743311818 471529 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :when compiling you can often choose options for symmetries one by one, rather than having to do it all at once
< 1743311946 422256 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, all of these languages require us to write programs. The difference is that some of them promise that some programs are equivalent to others.
< 1743312001 761702 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In a Brand F language, the programmer doesn't get a choice of algorithm. A Thue author has to confront genuine non-determinism, including perhaps adversarial or nemesis runtimes. A Prolog author can rely on WAM-style evaluation order.
< 1743312015 651069 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :during my PhD (and a little before) I was working with a functional hardware description language in which program equivalence was literally and concretely definable
< 1743312062 763884 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In a Brand P language, the programmer must specify any optimizations themselves, because the machine only cares about details and has no insight into its actions.
< 1743312070 396255 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was dealing with languages that had bounded memory, and knew it – and that meant that you could in theory translate your program into a finite state machine with I/O on the transitions
< 1743312098 516884 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the programs were equivalent if and only if those were equivalent (i.e. same I/O behaviour even if the state numbering didn't match or some states were duplicated)
< 1743312181 540921 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Nice. Sounds a lot like defunctionalization.
< 1743312207 142084 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Byzantine (demonic) Thue is not a concept I've thought about much before, except when defining Thue programs that work regardless of evaluation order in order to avoid questions about what Thue's evaluation order actually is
< 1743312261 354540 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think most people (who know about Thue) consider its evaluation order to be either angelic nondeterminism (i.e. "the interpreter makes choices that will cause the program to work correctly, maybe by evaluating all possibilities in parallel") or entirely random
< 1743312301 471579 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I believe (but may be incorrect) that it was originally intended to be the former, and that it has generally been interpreted as the latter by people writing for or implementing the language
< 1743312341 870040 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, I got kind of ruined by that one paper introducing adversarial quicksort. Really changed my views on what we mean when we say "choose" or "random" or "non-deterministic".
< 1743312439 634911 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :byzantine failures are such an interesting programming concept that feels very esoteric – although they have a fairly real-world usage, in considering how an attacker might attack a program
< 1743312499 593253 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but for, e.g., byzantine-failure-tolerant distributed systems, you have to consider that the failed node might send any possible sequence of bytes over the network, including sequences that contain, e.g., encryption keys that it doesn't know
< 1743312605 738394 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yep. We usually handle that by saying that a value is "unguessable" if it is, in fact, guessable. Very poor terminology. But the idea is that we assume unguessable values won't be guessed. In practice, we count the bits; 256 bits is fairly unguessable today.
< 1743312639 178303 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And then any capability-theoretic statement can be extended across a network by weakening unforgeability to unguessability.
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> 1743312698 633783 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Infinite state machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154723&oldid=108021 5* 03Stkptr 5* (-1262) 10Replace it with actually correct information
< 1743312713 443572 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it would be nice if there were a concise term for "the probability of this ever being guessed within the useful life of the system is too low for us to worry about, even if there's a concerted computing effort made against it"
< 1743312759 222808 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sometimes we use the same "exponentially-unlikely" phrasing as physicists doing thermodynamics.
< 1743312783 999973 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Have we done thermodynamics of (Turing) machines here yet? It's a fun mind-bender.
< 1743312883 112908 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But yeah, this is nicer than the standard Gordian knot. For example, recently I saw folks arguing over whether ASLR is security by obscurity or not. The answer is no, because ASLR can be revealed using Kerchoff's principle, and the address layout is merely unguessable.
< 1743312929 393786 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I generally consider security to not be "by obscurity" if the thing that's obscure is randomized between sufficiently many symmetrical possibilities
< 1743312993 905938 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the reason security by obscurity doesn't work is the same reason that using single words that a human chose mentally as passwords doesn't work – the number of possibilities that a human is reasonably likely to think of is small enough that the chance of guessing them is unacceptably high
< 1743313119 213255 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw, I don't consider ASLR reliable, but the reason is different – the number of possibilities is too small for me to be comfortable that they won't be guessed
< 1743313171 82170 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it'd be more secure if there were a way to detect failed attempts and lock out the attacker, but often that isn't available for one reason or another, and ASLR has been broken before just by running the program repeatedly until you get the address you need
< 1743313195 493471 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and living with all the segfaults and other similar consequences all the times when the address rolled wrong
< 1743313223 32434 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(additionally, pointer leaks are semi-common – I wouldn't be confident that any given program had no pointer leaks unless the language was enforcing that somehow)
< 1743313293 113745 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And at that point, the language might as well enforce pointer hygiene to cut off the entire avenue of attack.
< 1743313423 553367 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Valgrind can detect some improper memory accesses and memory leaks. (I often find more memory leaks and invalid accesses in libraries called by my programs than in my programs themself, and when I do find them in my program I can usually correct them without so much difficulty)
< 1743313439 142175 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that ASLR has some advantages and disadvantages.
< 1743313535 875345 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: so I think Valgrind Memcheck doesn't work against the sort of attacks ASLR is designed to mitigate, unless it's able to notice a return address being overwritten
< 1743313554 91440 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because those attacks use only valid memory addresses that the program is able to access legitimately
< 1743313558 846231 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know whether or not valgrind detects that
< 1743313626 653134 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(maybe it is able to do so but not by default; there are some things that it does not do by default but you can add extra switches to do so)
< 1743313632 625256 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know either – my guess is no, but in theory it could notice a return-from-subroutine machine code command popping an address that wasn't written by a call-subroutine command
< 1743313659 533465 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although that would have a lot of false positives nowadays, now that Spectre is a problem that most OSes and compilers want to mitigate
< 1743313673 349833 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :In some programs (although, I think mostly written in assembly language rather than in C, probably), it is sometimes useful to use specific addresses for some things.
< 1743313761 601591 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :C compilers used to (and for some platforms still do) compile static and global variables to be stored at memory addresses hardcoded in the generated program, and sometimes also do that for the address of called functions (although it's hard to make that compatible with shared objects so usually they don't)
< 1743313796 547762 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(With my own idea of operating system design, the program is supposed to be guaranteed the same every time it is run if the program is the same and all input is the same, so ASLR will not be suitable. I have other ideas as well, though.)
< 1743313827 518345 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :x86-64 was a big improvement over x86 in that respect – it has an easy syntax for IP-relative memory addressing, which has most of the advantages of hardcoded addresses but is more compatible with ASLR
< 1743313849 42410 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although it doesn't allow randomizing the section containing the program code separately from the section containing static variables)
< 1743313897 498429 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it makes the shared object case easier, too
< 1743313929 966328 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and by "easy syntax" I mean easy in the machine code)
< 1743313935 353425 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, and IP-relative addressing can be helpful for other reasons as well, if you have both absolute and relative addressing available
< 1743314028 400532 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :x86-64 does still have absolute addressing although the syntax is a bit more complex (they used the simplest syntax for relative, which I think was the right decision)
< 1743314084 745146 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :absolute addressing isn't so useful there because the commands can't take 64-bit immediate values, so the only addresses you can access absolutely are those in the bottom 4 GiB of memory
< 1743314103 512488 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(possibly the bottom 2 GiB if it's interpreted as a signed number, which it might be)
> 1743315423 876696 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07257-wrap brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154724&oldid=154641 5* 03Ais523 5* (+1197) 10unstub, cat, and use a more typical page structure
< 1743315620 710844 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1743318542 825876 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:9865:6ec1:d353:2dc8 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1743318949 656963 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1743319022 932152 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1743319035 901951 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1743321737 631438 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07R + S14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154725&oldid=154678 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+75) 10
< 1743323680 583344 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:9865:6ec1:d353:2dc8 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1743327228 113646 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:9865:6ec1:d353:2dc8 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1743327351 353746 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154726&oldid=154575 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-32) 10
> 1743327388 803012 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154727&oldid=154726 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-13) 10
> 1743328114 272152 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154728&oldid=154727 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-6) 10
< 1743328134 937468 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Heya
< 1743329489 573837 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1743330242 860693 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Oh this is a bit wild... yes, offsets are signed but if you use 32 bit addressing you get a zero-extended address. But also, virtual addresses are sign-extended. But Linux doesn't allow user space pointers to have the topmost bit set. Otherwise you'd get 6GB of absolute addressable memory. Thirdly, there are some special instructions to load from an absolute 64 bit address.
> 1743332396 524740 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Apollo(PSTF)14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154729 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+3690) 10Created page with "Apollo is a Brainfuck derivative designed by PSTF.  This is inspired from [[Artemis]], [[Brainfuck 2.0]], [[Masqualia]], [[BFInfinity]], Javascript, and [[Brainfuck extended]].  = Syntax Overview = As a Brainfuck derivative, Apollo is [[Turing-complete]], has
> 1743332690 29423 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Apollo14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154730 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+292) 10Created page with "There are two esolangs calls Apollo in history or currently: # [[User:Hppavilion1/UniFunge]](This is already called Apollo, but then changed to Unifunge) by [[User:Hppavilion1]], which is a fungeoid. # [[Apollo(PSTF)]] by [[User:PrySigneToFry]], which is a Brainfuck
> 1743332735 658466 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154731&oldid=154707 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+13) 10
< 1743333955 748031 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The IPv6 story has stalled a little, except that my ISP's support replied that "we've escalated to the relevant team for further investigation and will let you know", followed by an automated email saying (basically) "you didn't reply to our earlier email, if we don't hear back in 48 hours we'll assume you no longer need help and close your ticket", which was a little rude.
< 1743334223 99330 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :So I sent them back a second list of random debugging things I've tried (other Europe DO datacenters also fail; those also get routed through LONAP; non-Europe DO networks are fine; both the DHCPv6 delegated prefix and the single address assigned to the router behave the same; LONAP's looking-glass service shows that the router sending the address-unreachable errors last changed up/down state the
< 1743334225 782749 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :same day the problems started; traffic to another VPS that goes through LINX instead of LONAP works fine) mostly just to keep it alive.
< 1743334407 975222 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, DO support just sent a similar thing, except their timer is 3 days rather than 2.
< 1743336171 345953 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It would be nice if you could still tell IPv6 packets which way they should go, to be able to better test these things, but they deprecated that option long ago -- https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5095.txt -- and I imagine most places wouldn't have respected it anyway.
< 1743336398 397072 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :" a functional hardware description language in which program equivalence was literally and concretely definable / bounded memory" => did the hardware also have no nondeterminism in cases that you'd call undefined behavior? 
< 1743336778 331528 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie; "to the relevant team" sounds like a deliberately obscure answer, they don't even want to tell you what department. did they escalate to their criminal reporting department because they think you need IPV6 for money laundering or sending spam? their mental health department because they think you're crazy? their team with the shovels and optical cables to lay new optical cable next to your house?
< 1743336886 789422 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"if we don't hear back in 48 hours" => I assume it's enough if they hear back that you did the same test again and still have the same symptoms, eg. can't access the server through IPV6 from your connection but hosts in other ISPs can
< 1743338298 215885 :CanisCorvus!~CanisCorv@shef-17-b2-v4wan-169232-cust98.vm3.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] CanisCorvus
> 1743344398 887459 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03PkmnQ 5*  10moved [[02Apollo(PSTF)10]] to [[Apollo (PSTF)]]: Misspelled title: space
< 1743344452 613191 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1743344837 805667 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Apollo14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154734&oldid=154730 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1) 10
> 1743344921 292497 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Apollo(PSTF)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154735&oldid=154733 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+59) 10Removed redirect to [[Apollo (PSTF)]]
< 1743346172 92619 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1743346217 830974 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : did the hardware also have no nondeterminism in cases that you'd call undefined behavior? ← there was no UB in the language (it was somewhat easier than normal to avoid because the langauge didn't support division, just addition, subtraction, multiplication and bitwise operators)
< 1743346256 611933 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the research was primarily about statically avoiding race conditions (interestingly, Rust ended up doing the same thing, basically the same way, a couple of years later)
< 1743346274 983799 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so we didn't have problems with those either
< 1743346480 821914 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see
< 1743347799 842574 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:9865:6ec1:d353:2dc8 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1743347840 544613 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2025-03-30.html#lFb was for you
< 1743348879 520960 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:9990:df71:bfb8:e2a2 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1743348986 821276 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07WhatLang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154736&oldid=150865 5* 03DGCK81LNN 5* (-4) 10
< 1743349685 74238 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
> 1743349712 10907 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07WhatLang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154737&oldid=154736 5* 03DGCK81LNN 5* (-40) 10
< 1743349811 378779 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
> 1743349862 438170 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07WhatLang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154738&oldid=154737 5* 03DGCK81LNN 5* (+13) 10/* Koishi runtime specific */
> 1743351249 219802 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Esdraslov14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154739 5* 03Esdraslov 5* (+195) 10Created page with "I am [[User:Esdraslov]]  == My Esosteric programming languages ==  [[CDE2+]]    EDE  [[HeXPlik]]   _!dlroW ,olleH-=p[ 1743358796 127065 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ractangle14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154740&oldid=151770 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-11) 10/* Other things */
< 1743358823 258520 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the threat model for DOS attacks on compilers is interesting
< 1743358848 485695 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :most of the time you assume that any code you're going to compile, you're also going to run unsandboxed, so there isn't a need to guard against source code that maliciously attacks the compiler
< 1743358908 243392 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have seen some compilers that don't make that assumption, e.g. Rust's `regex` crate intentionally aims for performance that's linear-time in the length of the regex plus the length of its input, meaning that malicious end-user-supplied regexes can't cause a DOS
< 1743358932 818938 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah
< 1743359009 230541 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's this DOS  I recently found that is not related to a compiler but should be running sandboxed => https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2025-03.html#lDU
> 1743359012 656882 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07L-system14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154741&oldid=154670 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+19) 10/* Python implementation (D2L) */ Support empty string emission
< 1743359063 396787 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, maybe the "prevent this web page showing additional dialogs" option should be used in that case too, if it isn't already
< 1743359083 96578 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you don't get to choose options between the dialogs
< 1743359095 314377 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the dialog is modal so you can't choose anything during the dialog
< 1743359104 314867 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :can't even close the tab
< 1743359220 335410 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the option is normally placed *in* the dialog so that you can select it even if the dialog is modal
< 1743359227 588592 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but maybe Firefox can't adjust the file-save dialog like that
< 1743359275 340901 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :is it too heretical to suggest that the problem here is JS ;-)
< 1743359296 78692 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :does that attack even require JS?
< 1743359309 38424 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :how else would you trigger *multiple* downloads at the same time?
< 1743359322 507782 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a frameset, perhaps?
< 1743359329 94048 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm maybe
< 1743359365 143599 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :just frames
< 1743359402 979944 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think everyone learns the frames trick from sourceforge, it shows a frame to be able to show you an advertisment-riddled page and send a download at the same time
< 1743359405 274115 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.195.25.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1743359439 518643 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( what's sourceforge ) (scnr)
< 1743359474 665937 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, you can't really modify the Windows save dialog that way, at least not in a way that's transparent to the users. you could put a fake save format in the list, but users might not find it.
< 1743359503 999056 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but firefox could ask a question after you cancel a save dialog
> 1743359535 26033 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07HeXPlik14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154742&oldid=154706 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+29) 10Seems TC enough
< 1743359541 34729 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like after that you have to click somewhere to show more save dialogs
< 1743359550 779092 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it does something like that with popups
< 1743359611 894440 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/06/under-new-management-sourceforge-moves-to-put-badness-in-past/ ...I wonder how that went
< 1743359632 618197 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I haven't touched the site since 2015.
< 1743359864 665507 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night
> 1743359889 747541 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07R + S14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154743&oldid=154725 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+62) 10Combinational, no category for that
< 1743360483 179815 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also large sizes reminds me, https://sqlite.org/limits.html says that in theory sqlite can handle databases as large as 256 tebibytes, but “This particular upper bound is untested since the developers do not have access to hardware capable of reaching this limit.”
< 1743360524 120245 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :these days 256 tebibytes file size should be reachable so they might be able to test it
< 1743360630 86822 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :date announced, SIGBOVIK conference is on 2025-04-04 http://sigbovik.org/2025/
< 1743361647 599269 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, if a server did have 256 TiB of storage, how long would it take to fill it all?
< 1743361663 469521 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it wouldn't even be that long, given that it's only TiB, not PiB or XiB
< 1743361684 195203 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :people do gigabyte-scale things all the time, this is only 1000 times as much
< 1743362548 686695 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :The other possibility might be to make up a VFS to make up the data as it is being read, if it can be made up according to the proper file format and trees
< 1743362907 702238 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it might not be very fast, but I don't think that's a problem here
> 1743364345 45071 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:HiIam14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154744&oldid=131148 5* 03HiIam 5* (+79) 10Well, it's fine... I guess.
> 1743364441 527496 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:HiIam14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154745&oldid=154744 5* 03HiIam 5* (+4) 10Not a big change...
> 1743365123 495718 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Funciton14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154746&oldid=154395 5* 03Timwi 5* (+169) 10Regular expressions: add  (used in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt_8O7ZHmFQ), and change layout
> 1743367147 578695 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154747&oldid=154731 5* 03Buckets 5* (+16) 10
> 1743367201 75199 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154748&oldid=154708 5* 03Buckets 5* (+15) 10
> 1743367216 983235 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07```14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154749&oldid=154713 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+0) 10Amended a word's case to its minuscular form.
> 1743367218 164866 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Misprefix14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154750 5* 03Buckets 5* (+653) 10Created page with "Misprefix is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2024.  {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | Cre- || Create a New command. |- | Ed- || Name the Newest command. |- | Je- || End the Naming process. |- | Yon- || Set the speci
> 1743367361 965928 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Burn14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154751&oldid=153081 5* 03BestCoder 5* (+67) 10
> 1743367700 391745 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:Stubnoinfo14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154752&oldid=129874 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+43) 10
> 1743368126 717635 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Misprefix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154753&oldid=154750 5* 03Buckets 5* (+211) 10
> 1743368677 340754 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Abba14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154754&oldid=152646 5* 03Buckets 5* (+9) 10
> 1743368691 801188 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Abba14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154755&oldid=154754 5* 03Buckets 5* (+0) 10
> 1743369223 711396 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Uhidklol14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154756&oldid=154154 5* 03Juanp32 5* (+302) 10
> 1743370112 950306 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:ight14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154757&oldid=148910 5* 03Buckets 5* (+283) 10
> 1743370577 970683 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Happy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154758&oldid=154343 5* 03Buckets 5* (+35) 10
> 1743370996 349410 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Misprefix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154759&oldid=154753 5* 03Buckets 5* (-1) 10
> 1743371461 542852 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sleep.14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154760&oldid=154456 5* 03Buckets 5* (+66) 10
> 1743371878 228971 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:ight14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154761&oldid=154757 5* 03Buckets 5* (-19) 10
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> 1743374402 97378 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PTL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154762&oldid=117645 5* 03Buckets 5* (+0) 10/* Truth machine */
< 1743378227 515544 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1743378237 873283 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
> 1743378863 339537 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BitTurn14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154763&oldid=150583 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+358) 10
> 1743379012 284611 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Albuqer chng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154764&oldid=148764 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+28) 10
> 1743379150 288954 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Domino14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154765&oldid=54408 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+24) 10Unknown class
> 1743379177 915144 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EISC14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154766&oldid=37959 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+23) 10
> 1743379638 58630 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EvenOdd14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154767&oldid=126727 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+58) 10Can only define functions
> 1743380627 58290 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:NOB14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154768 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (+924) 10Some suggestions for clarification.
< 1743381928 284925 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1743384601 393617 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also had some ideas relating to a graphics processor of a computer, that it could have memory areas that cannot access each other (for security), and windows that have memory areas assigned to them (some of which will be read-only), and will also contain programs for altering registers per scanline and for rendering pixels (which may work in parallel, or during the previous scanline, or both).
< 1743384695 956210 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :A window may have position, size, and depth, and may be mapped in a specific order and in specific other windows. And then, there may also be sprites, which can also belong to windows and will have a position, size, depth, and order.
< 1743384725 299405 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(This is not for 3D graphics, but it is for 2D graphics)
< 1743386930 418094 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what's a good name for a special conceptual value that can be read and stored, but returns itself if used as an operand of an arithmetic operation, and is UB to branch on?
< 1743386938 988852 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sort-of like how uninitialised memory works in Valgrind
< 1743387088 157515 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(bonus points if it doesn't return itself in cases where the value doesn't otherwise matter, e.g. it becomes 0 if you multiply it by 0)
< 1743387136 130051 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in a way it's very similar to NaN, I guess
< 1743388111 526646 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, it seems to be like NaN but not quite.
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> 1743394205 367492 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/List of the users that is also in conwaylife.com14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154769&oldid=154634 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+109) 10/* xdi8 wiki */
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> 1743397032 118811 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:NOB14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154770&oldid=154768 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (+414) 10More suggestions.
> 1743400149 873932 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Win7HE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154771&oldid=151665 5* 03Win7HE 5* (-7) 10/* Smasnug (hq9+3/oi[]) */
> 1743400160 494143 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Win7HE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154772&oldid=154771 5* 03Win7HE 5* (+2) 10/* Smasnug */
> 1743400447 803194 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Win7HE 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:A more descriptive name.jpeg10]]": pepsi
> 1743401116 775853 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 overwrite10 02 5* 03Win7HE 5*  10uploaded a new version of "[[02File:When start.png10]]": Recreated in PenguinMod
> 1743401196 990586 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07File:When start.png14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154775&oldid=154774 5* 03Win7HE 5* (+81) 10
> 1743401212 345124 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07File:When start.png14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154776&oldid=154775 5* 03Win7HE 5* (+0) 10
> 1743402083 528437 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Win7HE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154777&oldid=154772 5* 03Win7HE 5* (-57) 10/* Deadman (technically deadfish 2.1) */
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< 1743405441 542779 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
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< 1743408217 943081 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1743409019 708932 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Lambda Calculus Tutorial14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154778 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+1986) 10Created page with ":::::Thanks for YouTuber 2swap (His video helps a lot.) Since I was confused about lambda calculus at first, and I took a long time to understand it. So I'll write this article to help others.  Also evaluating lambda expres
> 1743409423 492332 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Lambda Calculus Tutorial14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154779&oldid=154778 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+82) 10
< 1743409977 306410 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: infinity? no, that isn't UB to branch on.
< 1743410021 686622 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :possibly "indefinite representation" or something
< 1743410099 17054 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or how about poisoned (rotten, moldy, tainted) value?
< 1743410119 815239 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you have to treat anything it touches as also poisonous
< 1743410139 790281 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because one drop of poison mixed with a barrel of wine still counts as poison
< 1743410152 764798 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sewage
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< 1743412562 484776 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
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< 1743425364 695649 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:29bc:7fae:9d9f:d545 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1743427597 939887 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yo
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> 1743429593 280948 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Twasm14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154780 5* 03JHSHernandez-ZBH 5* (+664) 10Created page with "{{displaytitle:twasm}} {{lc:
 twasm is a cpu assembly with 4 instructions  {| !opcode!!binary code!!arguments!!action |-halt||00||none||halts the processor |-jinz||01||addr1, addr2||jumps execution to addr2 if the value at addr1 is not zero |-copy||11||addr1, 
> 1743429609 764587 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Twasm14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154781&oldid=154780 5* 03JHSHernandez-ZBH 5* (+0) 10
> 1743429634 380125 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Twasm14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154782&oldid=154781 5* 03JHSHernandez-ZBH 5* (-18) 10
> 1743429756 224501 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Twasm14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154783&oldid=154782 5* 03JHSHernandez-ZBH 5* (+32) 10
> 1743429783 289477 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Twasm14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154784&oldid=154783 5* 03JHSHernandez-ZBH 5* (+3) 10
< 1743434057 496635 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Another possibility is "tainting", which is what PyPy called it. They've removed the feature now, but it used to be possible to "taint" a value, and accesses to a tainted value would either throw an exception or return more taint. Def 5 for verb form: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/taint
< 1743435324 986827 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:29bc:7fae:9d9f:d545 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1743441971 463413 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1743443836 932773 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.195.25.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
> 1743452614 179114 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Sigil14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154785 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (+1112) 10Questions and comments about Sigil syntax and semantics.
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< 1743453696 343401 :ally_ok!~ally_ok@2600:4040:5cfb:5100:b94f:5c38:573:d034 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust
< 1743453696 377174 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ally_ok: "!zjoust progname code". See http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for documentation.
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< 1743458352 371266 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:29bc:7fae:9d9f:d545 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1743458522 209837 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1743458545 928266 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Perl has tainted values too, but they work a bit differently – you can branch on them but not pass them to I/O builtins
< 1743458707 45540 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : possibly "indefinite representation" or something ← I think names of that form are often used for a specific NaN payload (IIRC the one where the two most significant bits are 1 and everything else is 0)
< 1743458719 91955 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :as opposed to canonical NaN, which has one 1 bit at the top
< 1743458769 682381 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, "indefinite" is not appropriate here, I figured out a bit better ones after that
< 1743458793 141139 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm – the value in question is basically the "don't care" value from electronic engineering, usually called X
< 1743458807 496203 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :VHDL has it as an actual constant in the language
< 1743458817 304860 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and uses it as the NaN equivalent for booleans)
< 1743458832 814709 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, they aren't technically booleans but their main states are true and false, like booleans have
< 1743458876 167786 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was thinking of hardware bit indefinite, where the voltage might not be read consistently as a zero or one
< 1743458876 195922 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so branching on it might not consistently produce one or the other branch but could give a mixture
< 1743458926 450011 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think in VHDL that can be represented by either X or W, depending on what happens if you connect a strong voltage to it
< 1743458945 388841 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i.e. W is being weakly pulled both up and down, whereas something that's being strongly pulled both up and down is an X
< 1743458955 539836 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and something that's just purely floating is Z)
< 1743459057 597137 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh wait, I think "don't care" might be - rather than X
< 1743459062 234406 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's so long since I did this
< 1743459075 300262 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's hard to remember all the various behaviours of 9-valued booleans
< 1743459159 639729 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hehe
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< 1743460169 842694 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1743461654 418538 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1743461731 793991 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fortunately, I turned out not to need this sort of value, so I no longer have a pressing need for a name (but it seems potentially useful for the future)
< 1743463249 913602 :craigo_!~craigo@180-150-37-38.b49625.bne.nbn.aussiebb.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
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> 1743464302 492162 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154786 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+1435) 10Created page with "......  anyway this is my sandbox (silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box, sand in a plastic box, sand box, sandbox)  == The uaZ of uoy1d, by SJ313d W!1 == {{SUBST:wrongtitle|title=The