1743743717 373888 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155055&oldid=155033 5* 03C0ffee 5* (+9) 10
< 1743743858 476978 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
> 1743743920 574586 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sb14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155056&oldid=154291 5* 03C0ffee 5* (+26) 10
> 1743744102 754667 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sb14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155057&oldid=155056 5* 03C0ffee 5* (+128) 10
< 1743744808 918533 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org JOIN #esolangs hooloovoo :Hooloovoo
> 1743744930 64257 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sb14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155058&oldid=155057 5* 03C0ffee 5* (-4) 10
< 1743746225 989691 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/816863/matrices-whose-product-is-identity-but-do-not-commute finite matrices of different sizes
< 1743750998 927282 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1743751003 975199 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1743751086 796709 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1743751577 724380 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:PAL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155059&oldid=155045 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+254) 10/* RACTANGLE!TELL ME WHAT YOU DID WITH MY INTERPRETER */
> 1743751987 540846 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BitChanger Busy beaver/Proof14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155060&oldid=154674 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+1496) 10
< 1743752638 405 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1743752657 200172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:JIT14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155061&oldid=154948 5* 03JIT 5* (+59) 10
< 1743752684 198263 :nitrix!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix JOIN #esolangs nitrix :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1743753065 884639 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MetaInterpreter14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155062&oldid=154947 5* 03JIT 5* (+68) 10
> 1743753250 597656 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:(,!)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155063&oldid=133377 5* 03JIT 5* (+1) 10
> 1743757939 243385 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Blindfolded Arithmetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155064&oldid=153971 5* 03B jonas 5* (+1) 10/* Compiling individual steps */
< 1743759103 578281 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1743760755 231393 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Quit: Leaving
> 1743761586 441049 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03KMorgan 5*  10New user account
> 1743765293 486076 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:ight14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155065&oldid=154761 5* 03JIT 5* (+267) 10
< 1743765479 746756 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :amadaluzia
> 1743765720 912150 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:ight14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155066&oldid=155065 5* 03JIT 5* (+6) 10
> 1743765890 354376 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155067&oldid=154433 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-21) 10
< 1743766020 213670 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
> 1743766200 691093 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155068&oldid=154925 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+343) 10
> 1743766219 690279 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155069&oldid=155068 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1) 10
> 1743766227 369006 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155070&oldid=155069 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-1) 10
> 1743766237 196467 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155071&oldid=155070 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-2) 10
> 1743766267 516573 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155072&oldid=155071 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10
> 1743766496 265085 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Works in progress14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155073&oldid=155026 5* 03JHSHernandez-ZBH 5* (-35) 10
> 1743766528 249922 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Leocode14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155074&oldid=119567 5* 03JIT 5* (+130) 10
> 1743766548 676894 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Community portal14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155075&oldid=154870 5* 03JHSHernandez-ZBH 5* (+0) 10/* I made a template for april fools */
> 1743766622 916055 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:JHSHernandez-ZBH/templates/April14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155076&oldid=154871 5* 03JHSHernandez-ZBH 5* (-59) 10
> 1743766640 943023 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:JHSHernandez-ZBH/templates/April14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155077&oldid=155076 5* 03JHSHernandez-ZBH 5* (+3) 10
> 1743766750 37108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155078&oldid=155030 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+852) 10
> 1743767238 498758 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BitChanger Busy beaver/Proof14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155079&oldid=155060 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (-1495) 10I messes up and the ode returns all as looping
> 1743767791 458276 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155080&oldid=155046 5* 03JHSHernandez-ZBH 5* (+121) 10
> 1743767819 381793 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155081&oldid=155080 5* 03JHSHernandez-ZBH 5* (-2) 10
> 1743768623 898529 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tskastic/Command Table14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155082&oldid=155051 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+13) 10
> 1743768796 772731 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:AnotherUser0514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155083&oldid=123863 5* 03AnotherUser05 5* (+24) 10
> 1743771120 591215 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Piet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155084&oldid=154806 5* 03JHSHernandez-ZBH 5* (+52) 10/* Notes */
> 1743772125 102839 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MSFE++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155085&oldid=151858 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+981) 10/* Interpreter */
> 1743772416 546596 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155086&oldid=155078 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+910) 10
> 1743772542 570571 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MSFE++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155087&oldid=155085 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+181) 10/* Introduce&Syntax */
> 1743772779 669898 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155088&oldid=155038 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+685) 10/* New category */
> 1743774810 802052 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155089&oldid=154960 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+174) 10/* New signature for me */ new section
> 1743775633 484411 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rhombitrihexagonal14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=155090 5* 035anz 5* (+4721) 10Created page with "Hi, I'm 5anz, and this is my 5th esolang (counting [[brainXXXXXXXXXXx]] as one), and this one is about the Rhombitrihexagonal (or 3.4.6.4) Tiling, my personal favourite tiling, due to all the shapes it uses in a way that makes a dodecagon. It *IS* recommended yo
> 1743776180 441680 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rhombitrihexagonal14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155091&oldid=155090 5* 035anz 5* (+41) 10
> 1743776708 758699 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155092&oldid=155086 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1159) 10
> 1743776765 239135 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155093&oldid=155092 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+2) 10
> 1743776808 879233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155094&oldid=155093 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+54) 10
> 1743776883 42589 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155095&oldid=155094 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (-22) 10
> 1743776918 249030 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155096&oldid=155095 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+17) 10
> 1743777158 919743 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:5anz14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155097&oldid=148216 5* 035anz 5* (+109) 10/* brainXXXXXXXXXXx */
> 1743777178 204310 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:5anz14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155098&oldid=155097 5* 035anz 5* (-1) 10/* print("Hello, World!") */
> 1743777305 268661 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tskastic/Command Table14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155099&oldid=155082 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+110) 10
> 1743777546 906232 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:5anz/Sandbox14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=155100 5* 035anz 5* (+1685) 10Created page with "== Question 1 == === Question 1a === ==== Question 1ai ==== ===== Question 1aiA ===== ====== Question 1aiAI ====== ====== Question 1aiAII ====== ===== Question 1aiB ===== ====== Question 1aiBI ====== ====== Question 1aiBII ====== ==== Question 1aii ==== ===== Que
< 1743777710 909997 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1743777891 146049 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155101&oldid=154896 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+731) 10
> 1743778187 904143 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155102&oldid=155101 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+148) 10
> 1743778478 374763 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:ight14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155103&oldid=155066 5* 03JIT 5* (+328) 10/* Interpreters? */ new section
< 1743778627 162790 :Arty!~Lufia@artea.pt NICK :Artea
> 1743778836 202468 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155104&oldid=151907 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+98) 10Redirected page to [[User:I am islptng/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box]]
> 1743778944 758544 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155105&oldid=155102 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+246) 10
> 1743779019 586624 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155106&oldid=155105 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10
> 1743779178 50715 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155107&oldid=155096 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+77) 10/* The  of , by T. ,  */
> 1743779337 944685 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155108&oldid=155107 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+147) 10
> 1743779414 259081 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155109&oldid=155106 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-1) 10
> 1743779430 162532 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155110&oldid=155109 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1) 10
> 1743779696 437837 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155111&oldid=155067 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+459) 10
> 1743779704 704698 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155112&oldid=155111 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-459) 10
> 1743780486 634275 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Print("Hello, World!")14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155113&oldid=150655 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+118) 10/* Implementations */
< 1743781898 926636 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1743781916 466011 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :amadaluzia
> 1743783033 651274 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155114&oldid=155112 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+261) 10
> 1743783051 108231 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155115&oldid=155114 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-261) 10
< 1743783106 452981 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
> 1743783463 952029 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Moed14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155116&oldid=155015 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+168) 10/* Dexterimperae */
> 1743783533 255272 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155117&oldid=155088 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+212) 10/* Signature */ new section
> 1743783572 470220 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155118&oldid=155117 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10
> 1743783621 513644 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Moed14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155119&oldid=155116 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+87) 10/* Special operations */
> 1743783625 198360 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155120&oldid=155118 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+126) 10
> 1743783658 444121 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155121&oldid=155120 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-27) 10
> 1743783660 403032 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Moed14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155122&oldid=155119 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+44) 10/* Sinisterimperae */
> 1743783726 734080 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155123&oldid=155121 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+35) 10
> 1743783759 10409 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155124&oldid=155123 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-1) 10
> 1743783791 844052 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155125&oldid=155124 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-2) 10
> 1743783869 542763 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155126&oldid=155125 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-13) 10
> 1743783967 912292 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Moed14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155127&oldid=155122 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+52) 10/* Future additions */
> 1743784141 454349 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155128&oldid=155126 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+278) 10
> 1743784363 207216 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155129&oldid=155110 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+35) 10
> 1743784465 409348 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Moed/Examples14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155130&oldid=155014 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+101) 10
> 1743784546 292090 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Moed14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155131&oldid=155127 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+245) 10
> 1743784672 707687 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155132&oldid=154794 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+296) 10
> 1743784715 85480 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155133&oldid=153523 5* 03Corbin 5* (-32) 10Remove non-main-namespace article from main-namespace category.
< 1743784801 711279 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:5ca9:4add:c07a:f3a JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1743784831 263064 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.195.25.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
> 1743785055 613761 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Unname479814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155134&oldid=151221 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+717) 10Adding more to the mirror
> 1743785068 625887 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Unname479814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155135&oldid=155134 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+2) 10
> 1743785435 118887 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07W11014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155136&oldid=142529 5* 03Corbin 5* (+624) 10Fix credits and explain what was done. This is a notorious case of plagiarism where we should thoughtfully avoid crediting the plagiarist.
< 1743785446 769835 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: Who proved that Rule 110 is Turing-complete?
> 1743785474 120144 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Matthew Cook proved that Rule 110 is Turing-complete. He did this around 1998, after a legal battle with his employer. His proof involved demonstrating that Rule 110 could simulate a glider system, making it undecidable whether a given glider would appear.
< 1743785495 236891 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ooh, that's satisfying.
< 1743785525 117769 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"He did this around 1998, after a legal battle with his employer."
< 1743785548 417024 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, I'm looking to see if I can find a reputable source with a tighter date.
< 1743785617 683091 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also yeah, the bot got the causality slightly wrong. I'm told that Transformers don't really understand the ordering of words; it's yet another parameter which they only respect to a degree. If true, then very frustrating, since it means that implications are always coded incorrectly as bi-implications.
< 1743785685 77626 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/4155086/wolfram-research-inc-v-cook/
< 1743785777 690868 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Haha, yeah, okay. I'm on-board with that.
< 1743785939 318146 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Nope, no good details there. But I can still cite it since it happened.
< 1743785957 600149 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :TBH I can't even tell if that's the right Cook :P
< 1743785972 569265 :nitrix!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.9.1 - https://znc.in
< 1743785994 497704 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh I can
< 1743786080 593357 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, this helps: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Cook#Work_with_Stephen_Wolfram
> 1743786277 292942 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07W11014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155137&oldid=155136 5* 03Corbin 5* (+250) 10Add another reference and rephrase for precision.
< 1743786303 610137 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. WP is being gentle to avoid getting sued, but here on the West Coast it's well-known that Wolfram is a plagiarist.
< 1743786327 841848 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The general understanding is that Wolfram wanted credit for everything his grad students did. Adjunctification but without a teaching load.
< 1743786386 469816 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :As such, if there's anything in a Wolfram book like NKoS which isn't cited or credited, it's reasonable to assume that he plagiarized it from one of his employee-students, didn't pay them fairly, isn't going to credit them, and might well sue them for trying to publish honestly.
< 1743786519 178406 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wasn't sure how the timeline fit together. Now I have a 1998 date for announcing the result, a 2000/2001 lawsuit, a 2002 book, and a 2004 paper, in a sequence that makes sense.
< 1743786654 841686 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, yeah. And this is all over a decade after the mid-80s work that Wolfram *should* be credited for, like the Wolfram coding for the family that Rule 110 belongs.
< 1743786850 613552 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: Who proved that Rule 110 is Turing-complete?
> 1743786879 625784 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Matthew Cook proved that Rule 110 is Turing-complete. He did so around 1998, after initially conjecturing its Turing-completeness in 1985. Cook's proof involved demonstrating that Rule 110 could simulate a glider system, where the outcome of a glider's movement is undecidable.
< 1743786894 272229 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :LOL
< 1743786901 691116 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Amazing! Even more wrong.
< 1743786922 675126 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Feel free to poke at this. I'm done editing for now, I think.
< 1743786938 761824 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean it's technically possible I guess? Cook turned 15 in 1985
< 1743786945 115104 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :;)
< 1743786962 311849 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't interact with LLMs if I can help it.
< 1743787145 753667 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I gave consulting advice to a few RAG startups a few years ago. The biggest lesson I learned was that a RAG pipeline needs a good language model (which is expensive) and good input data (which requires work); this is also why most of those startups cratered.
< 1743787181 500268 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( I only use rags for cleaning. )
< 1743787199 611649 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I did look up the acronym the other day.)
< 1743787447 457485 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:5ca9:4add:c07a:f3a QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1743787553 902745 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I should probably stick the [LLM] prefix in the output per https://libera.chat/news/llm-etiquette -- and add some botloop avoidance to the general output format.
< 1743787564 50407 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :FTR, if the bot produces an answer in less than a minute, chances are there was no or very little esowiki sources involved in the response.
< 1743787582 110544 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Though looks like for that query it has in fact generated "Rule 110 Turing complete" as the wiki search query, found the pages "Shorter code Burn", "W110", "CA-1" as a result, and fed all three articles in as-is since they were all short enough.
< 1743789147 142781 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:5ca9:4add:c07a:f3a JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
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> 1743790298 885558 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ractangle14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155138&oldid=154740 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-50) 10
> 1743790346 887144 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Gilbert18914]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155139&oldid=154897 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+450) 10
> 1743790400 685644 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Gilbert18914]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155140&oldid=155139 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+79) 10
> 1743790518 996586 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155141&oldid=152947 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+31) 10
> 1743790620 214170 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ractangle/Debating14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155142&oldid=152540 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-298) 10/* CONSUMOR BUILD */
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> 1743790749 775066 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155143&oldid=155128 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+55) 10/* Page in need of deletion */
> 1743791875 940321 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155144&oldid=155143 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+176) 10/* Page in need of deletion */
< 1743793486 15053 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://gist.github.com/MostAwesomeDude/f31eff9e483a9e0223f14fb629c55755 I have made three conjectures, apparently.
< 1743793500 983258 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :First one is "if it weren't for call/return — if it weren't for general recursion — we could compile to classic CPUs via superoptimization"
< 1743793515 959281 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Third one is "when we want to refine a function by choosing an algorithm which isn't going to overflow the stack at runtime, we can't do it merely by inspecting the function's structure and deterministically assigning a pile of loops to it"
< 1743793889 153774 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know if I have a further point. I feel like I've sketched why Brand P, Brand A, and Brand F are different ways of building systems, and also why everything tends towards Brand A. I don't know if I have any interesting insights though. For all I know, it's all bunk.
> 1743798369 773179 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155145&oldid=155089 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+398) 10/* Is there one? */ new section
< 1743801826 450869 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
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> 1743803525 229700 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10moved [[02Bake10]] to [[User:Ractangle/Debating]]: fixing copy-and-paste move to userspace
> 1743803525 274219 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10deleted "[[02User:Ractangle/Debating10]]": Deleted to make way for move from "[[Bake]]"
> 1743803557 852601 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ractangle/Debating14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155147&oldid=155146 5* 03Ais523 5* (+717) 10set top revision after history merge
> 1743803582 263533 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10deleted "[[02User:Ractangle/Debating10]]": Author request: abandoned draft of an esolang
< 1743803643 945091 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1743803678 873462 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : First one is "if it weren't for call/return — if it weren't for general recursion — we could compile to classic CPUs via superoptimization" ← I have noticed something similar with parsers; interior-recursion is the only grammar feature that can't be fully analyzed through brute-force analysing all possible situations
< 1743803694 72387 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(where interior-recursion refers to a use of recursion that is neither head-recursion nor tail-recursion)
< 1743803905 568976 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder whether head-recursion optimisation works in general-purpose languages, or just parsers – the idea is that if a subprogram starts with a conditional recursive call to itself, you can first unconditionally run the case in which the recursive call didn't happen, and then check the condition
< 1743803907 201058 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, I've never seen the phrase "head-recursion" before.
< 1743803935 196409 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :just like tail-recursion optimisation, it changes recursion to iteration
< 1743803956 530979 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :If it's conditional I'm not sure I'd call it head position exactly. But maybe it's close enough.
< 1743803964 356149 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: I think I may have coined the phrase, although it's an obvious parallel to tail-recursion
< 1743803972 522728 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right, for sure.
< 1743803976 323193 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, it has to be conditional because otherwise you get an infinite loop
< 1743804020 876770 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right, but unlike tail recursion, that really does move it out of head position.
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< 1743804039 294288 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Interesting. IIUC interior-recursion is *not* covered by the symmetry of recursion, but that could be because I didn't try very hard.
< 1743804074 982014 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, suppose a loop takes n+m iterations; we should be able to split it into an n-iteration loop followed by an m-iteration loop. And that corresponds to breaking apart a composite endomorphism.
< 1743804077 514804 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :let's see – we're replacing f() { if(x) f() else g; h; } with f() { g; while (was x) h; }
< 1743804098 84078 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, I see, the difference is in the timing of when the condition is evaluated
< 1743804112 233374 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and in particular it needs to evaluate to something different at each recursive level, to prevent an infinite loop
< 1743804146 362844 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the reason this works so well in parsers is that in parsers, x is a statement about what will happen in the future, and so actually evaluating it in the future is easier than evaluating it immediately
< 1743804164 364918 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, what's a good concrete example for a parser?
< 1743804189 513026 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: so for parsing additions, you have a rule like expr ::= int | expr + int
< 1743804212 115127 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right, I was imagining it's for a left-recursive grammar sort of thing.
< 1743804228 231376 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and this conceptually expands to a function "try a recursive call, if it fails, parse an integer, if it succeeds, parse that plus an integer"
< 1743804237 885976 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that definition requires backtracking which you want to optimize out
< 1743804260 296936 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, the completely naive thing here just recurses infinitely, right?
< 1743804264 643050 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the way you optimize it is by parsing the integer first, then looping parsing the additional integers that are added
< 1743804271 104331 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: if completely naive, yes
< 1743804286 578078 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in the underlying mathematical model it doesn't, but that makes it hard to translate the model into a program directly
< 1743804290 668239 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :What's the backtracking version you're thinking of?
< 1743804321 701464 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I guess you have some limit on "the input must have this many tokens for the parse to succeed" – then the backtracking works
< 1743804342 453057 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, once you have 20 recursive calls the input has to have at least 41 tokens for the parse to be possible, you can use that to interrupt the recursion
< 1743804399 10778 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think parse_expr() { left = parse_int(); while (consume("+")) { left = left + parse_int(); } } is very natural, but I would normally think of it as a translation of a left-factored grammar, or something.
< 1743804417 167097 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:5ca9:4add:c07a:f3a JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1743804421 447048 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: right, that's the transformation I'm talking about
< 1743804437 363398 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it's interesting because it's basically optimising a program that would be an infinite loop if compiled naively, into a program that runs correctly
< 1743804451 168993 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Rather than as an optimization of a head-recursive function.
< 1743804457 700938 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure I'd call that an optimization!
< 1743804477 543354 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it's an optimization, but I think it's an optimization in a different semantics from the one used for normal programming languages
< 1743804489 133012 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :imagine a Prolog in which an infinite loop is a failure – I think it works in that
< 1743804515 274689 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, fair enough.
< 1743804538 73920 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in a sense, the parser is trying to find all possible parses, the ones that go into an infinite loop aren't possible parses so we aren't trying to find them and can optimize them out
< 1743804540 470722 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wait, so what's the head-recursive code you would write for this? Is that in normal programming language semantics or in this other semantics?
< 1743804563 213019 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: it's in the abnormal semantics – I noticed it when working on parser theory
< 1743804573 194286 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Got it, OK.
< 1743804576 273103 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :where the optimisation is a correct one, because of the semantics being different
< 1743804604 941804 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I was wondering whether it would work in normal languages too; and the answer seems to be "no, because in those languages you can't treat an infinite loop as equivalent to an exception"
< 1743804623 245621 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's interesting that the left-recursive grammar can be parsed n constant space but the right-recursive grammar needs linear space.
< 1743804640 676188 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1743804665 203451 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :LL(k) and LR(k) are well known classes of grammar, but I like to think of a third, LLL(k), which is LL(k) except that left-recursion is changed into iteration in order to get around this specific problem
< 1743804698 363804 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in a way, the reason that LL(k) doesn't handle left-recursion is that the semantics of the LL(k) virtual machine don't match the semantics of context-free grammars in that specific way
< 1743804728 73993 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :How is an LLL(k) grammar defined?
< 1743804802 898066 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's basically "whenever you have to make a decision other than the number of times to make a left-recursive call before continuing, you must be able to make it by looking at the next k symbols; whenever you have a decision about the nubmer of times to make a left-recursive call before continuing, you must be able to choose 0 or >0 within k symbols, but do not need to choose the exact value"
< 1743804843 773744 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is a little hard to express precisely, I don't think I got it quite precise there
< 1743805069 847323 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nice, I haven't heard of LLL before I think
< 1743805107 106105 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :About https://gist.github.com/MostAwesomeDude/f31eff9e483a9e0223f14fb629c55755 it says "A Brand P system generally maps syntax to machine operations. As such, there is no way to reorder or shuffle around syntax without also reordering the encoded operations." However, some assembly langauges might have commands to specify start at different addresses and then go back.
< 1743805756 627911 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought of a very stupid pun because of the Tetris the Grand Master 4 release. So you know I've been thinking for a while of the hypothetical tetris game that you control by pressing one of ten horizontal position keys (home row) and one of eight rotation keys (above home row)? There are three input modes for it. In mode 2, the piece is locked when you release all keys – usually this is two keys, 
< 1743805762 636988 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but in simpler cases you can press just one key if you know it will do the right thing, or it can be three keys if you have to tuck a piece under another one. In mode 1, the piece is locked when you have released all keys and you have typed both a position key and a rotation key – you can press the keys one after another or simultaneously. In mode 0, the piece is locked only when you release the 
< 1743805768 649800 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :confirm key (space), which helps when you're not yet comfortable with the controls because it lets you preview where the piece will go before you commit. For a while I didn't know what to name these modes, but today I figured it out. Mode 2 is "chord mode" because pressing multiple keys simultaneously is called a "chord" by analogy with the piano; mode 1 is "coord mode" because you must give both 
< 1743805774 652184 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :coordinates, mode 0 is "cord mode" because the piece drops when you allow it by removing the velvet rope at the entrance of the fancy building.
< 1743805821 905973 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I guess I should spell mode 1 as "coörd mode" on this channel.)
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< 1743806160 744410 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Even though it is confusing, I think that will do.
< 1743807104 187419 :nitrix!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix JOIN #esolangs nitrix :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1743808604 418352 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: Sure, I'm talking more about the ISA than about the assembler's meta-syntax and directives. I have seen e.g. script-driven assemblers and table-driven assemblers, and I agree with you that some of them are definitely Brand A systems in terms of complexity.
< 1743809206 231303 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: it is crossing my mind that the program/algorithm distinction probably depends on what the compilation is targeting
< 1743809237 538717 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the distinction between a program and an algorithm is that a program does not have symmetries that are not also present in the compilation target
< 1743809269 38301 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…also this implies that an interpreter can't be a program in your sense, unless there is only one possible way to write the interpreter
< 1743809340 48255 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :on a different but related topic, I have been considering a language which allows directives that specify what implementation of something to use, in cases where the language specification allows multiple implementations
< 1743809356 248278 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i.e. the symmetries can be explicitly broken by the programmer, but the compiler chooses one if they aren't
< 1743809458 328528 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :as a simple example, to convert SSA to machine code you have to pick an explicit order for the operations – but the processor converts it back to SSA again internally and runs the operations in parallel (as long as none of them write to memory and you don't have so many that the reorder buffer overflows)
< 1743809478 488441 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(assuming a modern high-end processor, that is)
< 1743809500 734468 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :The CROSS JOIN command in SQLite forces the order to be what is specified, but JOIN by itself allows the query optimizer to change the order.
< 1743809676 296114 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(There is also INDEXED BY command, to force it to use a specified index, instead of deciding automatically what index to use.)
< 1743810482 117594 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Oh, yeah, if we're getting to like high-level moral suggestions then I'm thinking that there's still more work to do.
< 1743810536 721240 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would love to say something simple like "use Brand X" but I'm not sure that that's a coherent approach. I suspect it's more like "Brand P is inevitable, Brand F is ideal, Brand A is what we keep making"
< 1743810548 717801 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which leads to questions like "so why do we keep ending up with Brand A"
< 1743810605 488954 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because there are lots of things that are easy to express using algorithms but hard to express using functions
< 1743810622 440550 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Oh, another example is GHC's strictification analysis. Idiomatic Haskell starts out with one ordering, but then it's lost when lowering to Core, and GHC recovers an equivalent ordering later on.
< 1743810628 534579 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and a compilation from functions to programs is likely to go via algorithms, and those features are so easy to add at that stage
< 1743810698 179785 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :just look at something ilke Haskell unsafePerformIO, the semantics are hard to specify, and may cause symmetry-resolutions to be observable and thus cause the functions to not be actual functions, but it's easy to implement and so it exists
< 1743810731 863558 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And the only folks who stick with functions are the type theorists whose theories might not have nice computational analogues of beta-reduction, e.g. in homotopy and cubical type theories.
< 1743810731 863787 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for almost everyone, practicality will triumph over theoretical purity, despite the theoretical benefits from being pure
< 1743810740 502819 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you don't care about practicality then you are either a type theorist or an exolanger
< 1743810743 847785 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* an esolanger
< 1743810746 267304 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry, bad typo
< 1743810770 262188 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ha, yeah. By zero coincidence, when I read through Coq's extraction to Haskell, I noted that it leans on GHC-specific unsafe IO.
< 1743810848 492647 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now, I think there is a big actual practical benefit from moving towards languages where the input is a true function – it makes it much easier to define whether or not an optimisation is sound
< 1743810863 552153 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and also makes notions of program correctness easier to specify
< 1743810877 808264 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, I think for most people the benefit isn't worth the cost
< 1743810909 191651 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Oh, my second conjecture got eaten by my IRC client, and it's good too: "We can still superoptimize each basic block without worry, though." Like, I think that if we remove call/return instructions, we *can* meaningfully find optimal programs. I might go beyond that and suggest that some basic control flow can be superoptimized too.
< 1743810959 137339 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I believe that's trivially provable (for some types of language) via expressing the basic block as a finite state machine
< 1743810996 401004 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in fact, this implies that the problematic constructions are precisely those that allow for unbounded storage
< 1743810997 679454 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. I don't think they're hard conjectures. I'm not a magic visionary; I'm just going through Yanofsky's papers and finding so many gems.
< 1743811008 836987 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thinking about it, recursion on its own can't be the only problem because you can simulate it using iteration and a manual stack
< 1743811031 194906 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so if recursion blocks some nice property, iteration + a manual stack must also block it
< 1743811043 79719 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I think the offender here is actually the manual stack, due to being unbounded
< 1743811085 931760 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Recursion is only making it difficult to determine whether two programs/algorithms are equivalent. There's still obvious homomorphisms.
< 1743811111 313245 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :They're just not very good. Like, they can't even promise that the stack won't overflow.
< 1743811162 415163 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(on a side note, I *hate* the way that programming languages try to limit stack use, in preference to using the heap for big recursions – this seems to me to be arbitrarily inefficient, if a program is best expressed using the stack then doing that is both clearer and theoretically more efficient, and it should be the language implementation's responsibility to simulate as much stack as you need)