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01:23:35 <b_jonas> ais523: I also think that that's less powerful than a full linear bounded automaton, but I don't have a proof
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03:06:06 <zzo38> Due to their keep changing some things in the formatting of Magic: the Gathering rules, I had to update my program for converting to HTML; this last time, the heading for rule 505 was incorrectly not copied due to a blank line containing a space before it, but I fixed that now.
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05:00:00 <korvo> Thinkin' about Owner-Free File System again. This time I'm thinking of how it might interact with a Gödel machine; such a machine might learn OFFS blocks which are efficient, useful, or otherwise common.
05:00:55 <korvo> I probably should get at least one (1) thing off my plate first though.
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08:40:28 <wib_jonas> ais523: a linear-bounded automaton can solve a SAT instance by iterating through every solution and checking them. a multi-stack machine without null state changes that you mentioned can be evaluated in linear time in the input. so if they were equally powerful that would imply P=NP. This is probably an overkill argument and there's one that
08:40:29 <wib_jonas> doesn't depend on such a conjecture, but I think it's at least a heuristic.
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09:34:06 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Harlanward * New user account
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14:11:10 <esolangs> [[Argh!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155314&oldid=142525 * 5anz * (+0) /* Examples */
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16:45:15 <korvo> b_jonas: That's an elegant argument. Nice.
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20:11:45 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155324&oldid=155274 * WhatToUseThisFor * (+66)
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20:33:21 <ais523> is quadratic-time known to be more powerful than linear-time? if so, then even P=NP wouldn't prevent a linear-time program being unable to solve SAT
20:34:36 <int-e> Linear and quadratic time on what formalism? (sorting in the RAM model comes to mind)
20:34:48 <int-e> comparison-based that is
20:34:55 <ais523> oh, good point – the model matters when it's linear versus quadratic
20:35:55 <ais523> this is a multiple-stack model (which is similar to a multitape Turing machine model but you can add and delete tape elements in addition to changing them)
20:41:13 <ais523> I guess I could call this the Esimpl model – I think it's the same performance up to amortization and constant factors (two stacks can simulate a queue in amortized linear time)
20:54:19 <b_jonas> linear vs quadratic can also matter on what specific NP-complete problem you choose and how it's encoded.
20:54:35 <b_jonas> ah, you're saying SAT specifically
20:56:39 <b_jonas> but anyway, yes, it's because linear time is such a strong restriction why I expect that your question can be answered even without knowing P!=NP
20:57:07 <ais523> I'm not convinced that this model is even linear-time-complete
20:57:21 <ais523> (the stack machine that can only do stack manipulation as it reads input)
20:57:21 <b_jonas> because I think the complexity theorists know some problems that can be solved in exponential time but not in linear time, or something like that, and you could exploit that here
20:57:42 <b_jonas> sure, we don't need it linear time complete, and it probably isn't
20:58:35 <b_jonas> my original thought was basically that you give a problem encoded with a block cipher and give the short symmetric key at the very end of the problem description, then the no null transitions multi-stack machine has very little time to decode the problem
20:58:55 <ais523> you can find the median of an array in linear time, right? but I can't see how to do that with the stack-operations-when-reading machine
20:59:01 <b_jonas> but that doesn't work directly when you're asking about asymptotics
20:59:15 <b_jonas> since a block cipher with fixed size can be solved by a huge finite state machine
21:12:42 <b_jonas> like if you know how to solve the original problem with an machine with P stacks and N states, and there are 2↑256 possible block cipher keys, then solve the ciphered problem by simulating 2↑256 copies of that multi-stack machine (plus the state of the cipher) with a giant multi-stack machine that has 2↑256·P stacks and (N·C)↑(2↑256) states where C is the number of states of the cipher
21:13:56 <int-e> ais523: 2N tapes can simulate N stacks and 2N stacks can simulate N tapes, right? :)
21:14:11 <int-e> N tapes can simulate N stacks
21:19:06 <b_jonas> ais523: hold on, you are requiring your multi-stack machine without null transitions to be deterministic, right?
21:19:45 <ais523> b_jonas: yes, although interestingly I came across this while trying to solve a problem that involved NPDAs
21:19:53 <ais523> so the nondeterministic case might be interesting
21:20:15 <ais523> (fwiw I no longer think it's the right solution, so it's just a curiosity more than something that's the right answer)
21:20:39 <b_jonas> I asked because my simple heuristic doesn't work if it can be nondeterministic
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21:46:54 <esolangs> [[User talk:Hotcrystal0/Colon three]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=155325 * I am islptng * (+46) Where's the U-turner?
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22:33:05 <esolangs> [[Category talk:Unknown computational class]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155326&oldid=138372 * 5anz * (+306)
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23:02:11 <esolangs> [[257-wrap brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155327&oldid=155234 * Tpaefawzen * (+60)
23:11:11 <esolangs> [[257-wrap brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155328&oldid=155327 * Tpaefawzen * (+40) /* Implementation */