> 1744329872 22199 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07*lang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155603&oldid=155599 5* 03DigitalDetective47 5* (+352) 10refine definitions and add out statement
< 1744329903 308564 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The IPv6 saga got a resolution. They've not confirmed it (yet, at least), but my ISP's support people said their network engineering team believed it was related to their routing configuration, and then a little while after that response it started working again, so presumably they did something to fix it.
> 1744330086 338224 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unstable14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=155604 5* 03Darkloyd255 5* (+1550) 10Creation.
> 1744330516 938348 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Chalk1 5*  10New user account
> 1744330988 341589 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155605&oldid=155577 5* 03Chalk1 5* (+175) 10
> 1744331185 330605 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Chalk114]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=155606 5* 03Chalk1 5* (+197) 10Created page with "== Greetings ==  ''Hello!'' I'm Chalk. I... umm... what do I say??? Uhhh... I don't know.. Uhhh???? Hmmm.... What do I say... Uhh... Umm... Hmmmm... Hmmmmmmmm... Uhhh... I give up. I can't do this."
> 1744331213 328900 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07*lang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155607&oldid=155603 5* 03DigitalDetective47 5* (+80) 10define behavior when back recieves a pointer that has never been dereferenced
> 1744331583 518292 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:IHISIANGTUI14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=155608 5* 03Chalk1 5* (+238) 10Created page with "== Python interpreter for IHISIANGTUI? ==  I could try to make a simple interpreter for it. I want to see where this project will go; it's pretty interesting. --~~~~"
< 1744334509 836192 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :How to make new input methods and output methods for use with XIM/XOM functions of Xlib? (Also, I think the functions requiring the locale isn't as good and better functions should be defined, e.g. XOpenOM2 which explicitly specifies the character set, character encoding, and options.)
> 1744335126 196809 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07*lang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155609&oldid=155607 5* 03DigitalDetective47 5* (+66) 10clarify that & is not allowed for assignment targets
> 1744336107 764712 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Burn14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155610&oldid=155513 5* 03Truttle1 5* (+1124) 10
> 1744337437 9869 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155611&oldid=128971 5* 03Tiziano220812 5* (+269) 10/* Interpreter */
> 1744337510 363247 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07*lang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155612&oldid=155609 5* 03DigitalDetective47 5* (+13) 10only line initial whitespace is ignored
> 1744337538 567257 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155613&oldid=155611 5* 03Tiziano220812 5* (+43) 10/* Interpreter */
> 1744338656 500462 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ruletable14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=155614 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+24) 10Redirected page to [[RuleLoader]]
> 1744338667 813558 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Truttle114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155615&oldid=148743 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+684) 10
> 1744338699 283254 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07RuleLoader14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155616&oldid=145863 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+1) 10Change my name
> 1744338742 119319 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155617&oldid=146590 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-79) 10Change my name
> 1744338759 930941 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wasaya/Libraries14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155618&oldid=148387 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+1) 10Change my name
> 1744341031 468093 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Anthonykozar/Notes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155619&oldid=152205 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (+347) 10Add Hexagony, language based on IDS structures, base-3 languages, etc.
> 1744344597 746558 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07*lang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155620&oldid=155612 5* 03DigitalDetective47 5* (+1055) 10add some example programs
> 1744344880 342076 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stackowey14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155621&oldid=155573 5* 03Lampe2020 5* (-177) 10Undo revision [[Special:Diff/155573|155573]] by [[Special:Contributions/Lampe2020|Lampe2020]] ([[User talk:Lampe2020|talk]])
> 1744345199 371849 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07*lang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155622&oldid=155620 5* 03DigitalDetective47 5* (+101) 10add interpreter link
> 1744345652 17886 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Stackowey14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=155623 5* 03Lampe2020 5* (+599) 10Added note about revision undo.
> 1744345829 251522 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07*lang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155624&oldid=155622 5* 03DigitalDetective47 5* (+139) 10add categories, finalize page
> 1744345885 622350 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155625&oldid=155470 5* 03DigitalDetective47 5* (+13) 10/* Non-alphabetic */ add *lang
> 1744345897 696496 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Anthonykozar/Notes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155626&oldid=155619 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (+14) 10Adding Noisett.
> 1744346158 503039 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155627&oldid=150324 5* 03DigitalDetective47 5* (+475) 10add *lang
> 1744346252 97239 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155628&oldid=153488 5* 03DigitalDetective47 5* (+396) 10/* Implementations */ add *lang
> 1744346283 839977 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Anthonykozar/Notes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155629&oldid=155626 5* 03Anthonykozar 5* (+41) 10Adding user Zero who created Noisett?
> 1744346466 799721 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fool14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155630&oldid=94740 5* 03DigitalDetective47 5* (+33) 10this is definitely declarative
> 1744346489 936473 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:DigitalDetective4714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155631&oldid=155575 5* 03DigitalDetective47 5* (+246) 10add *lang
< 1744347623 970327 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had played Pokemon recently, with random double battle, with dynamax allowed and shift commands disallowed (this rule was decided at random before the battle begins). I remember much of what happened.
< 1744347735 603199 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :My first two pokemons were Chimecho (with Prankster ability, and moves: Heal Pulse, Recover, Reflect, Light Screen), and Marowak (Rock Head ability, and moves included Swords Dance and Double-Edge and two others I didn't use), and opponent's first two pokemons were Gogoat and Grimmsnarl.
< 1744348079 736767 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Marowak used Swords Dance a few times, Chimecho and Grimmsnarl both set up screens, Gogoat did Leech Seed on both of my pokemons. When Gogoat fainted, the opponent's next pokemon was Samurott and defeated Marowak by Hydro Pump.
< 1744348307 663456 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had guessed that Samurott was choice-locked, and I looked at my other pokemons, I had Gastrodon (with Storm Drain ability) and Eelektross (with Discharge move). I guessed that if I activated Gastrodon then probably Samurott would dynamax, and I would have Gastrodon also dynamax.
< 1744348406 136387 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :My plan was also that when opponent had only two active pokemons left, I would let Chimecho to faint (from Leech Seed, or having Gastrodon attack it if necessary), and then activate Eelektross; and that I would not attack Samurott before then.
< 1744348513 861027 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Gastrodon's moves were Earth Power, Ice Beam, Clear Smog, and Recover. I could use Max Quake to increase Sp.Def, and Samurott used Max Darkness, to decrease Sp.Def, so they cancelled out.
< 1744348525 704452 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :My plan ended up working perfectly.
< 1744348725 374277 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(since my own pokemons were not choice-locked, I could select moves of the other types in case the opponent was resisted or immune to some of them, and still defeat Samurott.)
> 1744348953 16795 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Truttle114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155632&oldid=155615 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+163) 10/* Burnlike */
< 1744351105 805093 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@2a00:23c7:ed8b:6701:6582:5675:67d:4956 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1744351178 510982 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1744351421 275876 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :Artur Manuel
< 1744351457 806388 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1744353260 533006 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: great. now just make sure you keep testing that it doesn't break again soon.
< 1744353359 863960 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: what are "shift commands"?
< 1744353912 525497 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`olist 1322
< 1744353914 879807 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :olist <https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1322.html>: shachaf oerjan Sgeo boily nortti b_jonas Noisytoot
< 1744355937 891640 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1744355961 671661 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1744360398 622505 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1744360415 154963 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
> 1744360941 495419 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ractangle14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155633&oldid=155138 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-10) 10/* Gammaline stuff */
< 1744362458 97420 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs lisbeths :lisbeths
< 1744363069 322474 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1744363887 577995 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :APic: hello
< 1744366857 451258 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.54.143.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :
> 1744368594 614266 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155634&oldid=155557 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+10) 10
> 1744370065 279439 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155635&oldid=155193 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+224) 10
> 1744370302 61815 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tskastic/Command Table14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155636&oldid=155532 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+222) 10
< 1744371203 235607 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1744373045 989578 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03FortuiteMan 5*  10New user account
> 1744373115 304592 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155637&oldid=155634 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+22) 10
> 1744373160 799401 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:BitChanger Busy beaver/Proof14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155638&oldid=155341 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+218) 10
> 1744373535 942213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155639&oldid=155605 5* 03FortuiteMan 5* (+148) 10
> 1744373546 366067 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hexagony14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155640&oldid=106062 5* 03FortuiteMan 5* (+91) 10/* Special characters */
> 1744373919 965769 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:BitChanger Busy beaver/Proof14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155641&oldid=155638 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+199) 10
> 1744373935 195621 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:BitChanger Busy beaver/Proof14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155642&oldid=155641 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (-1) 10
< 1744374979 305274 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
> 1744375251 919586 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155643&oldid=155637 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+15) 10
> 1744377211 663328 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Draft of EtPL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155644&oldid=155024 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+126) 10
> 1744377716 235087 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155645&oldid=155643 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+39) 10
> 1744377729 881994 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07WhatLang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155646&oldid=154738 5* 03DGCK81LNN 5* (+508) 10/* WhatCommands */
< 1744377821 803233 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :Artur Manuel
> 1744377948 686348 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07WhatLang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155647&oldid=155646 5* 03DGCK81LNN 5* (-1) 10/* WhatCommands */
> 1744377991 251068 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TIAEPL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155648&oldid=155559 5* 03Dhzb 5* (-5) 10
> 1744378462 512470 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TIAEPL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155649&oldid=155648 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+360) 10/* Character set */
> 1744378538 936578 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07WhatLang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155650&oldid=155647 5* 03DGCK81LNN 5* (+159) 10/* WhatCommands */
> 1744378567 538425 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Works in progress14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155651&oldid=155484 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+13) 10
> 1744381169 490283 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tskastic/Command Table14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155652&oldid=155636 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+457) 10
> 1744381303 510698 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155653&oldid=155645 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+57) 10
> 1744381318 376653 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155654&oldid=155653 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (-1) 10
> 1744381385 262603 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Anthonykozar/Notes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155655&oldid=155629 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+87) 10
> 1744381875 777496 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155656&oldid=155403 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1112) 10/* Collaboration? */ new section
> 1744381912 948085 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TIAEPL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155657&oldid=155649 5* 03Dhzb 5* (-6) 10
> 1744381997 84420 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155658&oldid=155654 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+35) 10
> 1744382000 159347 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155659&oldid=155656 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+98) 10
> 1744382036 78066 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155660&oldid=155659 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+371) 10
> 1744382047 203268 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155661&oldid=155660 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1) 10
> 1744382110 438816 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155662&oldid=155658 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+2) 10
< 1744382255 919075 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1744382681 271184 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1744383614 961125 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs lisbeths :lisbeths
> 1744384337 145410 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Translated Python14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155663&oldid=124000 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+352) 10/* This looks somewhat like Poetic */ new section
< 1744386428 409023 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :r8 my language: https://github.com/memesmith0/calculator/edit/main/calculator.c
< 1744386436 931077 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo
> 1744386513 806268 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:JIT14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155664&oldid=155061 5* 03JIT 5* (+406) 10
< 1744387052 226654 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot JOIN #esolangs lambdabot :Lambda_Robots:_100%_Loyal
< 1744387361 267489 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: Retro.
< 1744387517 17659 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :What a hostile link (it redirects to a login page. No, I'm not signed into github, why would I be?)
< 1744387609 538232 :JAA!~JAA@user/meow/JAA PRIVMSG #esolangs :s/edit/blob/ probably
< 1744387628 34598 :JAA!~JAA@user/meow/JAA PRIVMSG #esolangs :Although it's still GitHub's shitty interface, so still hostile.
< 1744387656 138053 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :s=edit=blob/main= works
< 1744387665 992653 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh
< 1744387669 224186 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nm
< 1744387682 794435 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :JAA: yeah that works
> 1744387919 99443 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfive14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155665&oldid=155602 5* 03Darkloyd255 5* (+2244) 10Added programs
> 1744387959 425162 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfive14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155666&oldid=155665 5* 03Darkloyd255 5* (-13) 10Removed multithreaded as thats not really what it is.
< 1744388063 836775 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :If it still doesn't work, substitute "raw" in place of "blob"; that seems to work on many websites with git and not only on GitHub. It is also possible to use the GitHub API, or to write your own scripts to use the React data included in the HTML; I have done both.
> 1744388098 305001 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155667&oldid=155625 5* 03Darkloyd255 5* (-45) 10Added my article "brainfive"
< 1744388108 564039 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: By shift commands in pokemon I mean when you use a shift command to switch out your active pokemon and switch in a different one (rather than being switched out by something like Volt Switch or U-Turn or being forced by Roar or Whirlwind)
< 1744388174 581783 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :its likely already been edited since you last saw it
< 1744388180 532260 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://github.com/memesmith0/calculator/blob/main/calculator.c
> 1744388209 622603 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[070widthnonjoiner14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155668&oldid=141707 5* 03Darkloyd255 5* (+9) 10Article is a stub
< 1744388219 493503 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the #c people think I'm lying when I said I am serious about it
< 1744388287 726903 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: I don't think anybody will notice that it changed. Because, if you're approaching this as the specification of a language, it's unreadable. Sure, you can approach this as a reverse engineering challenge (and in that category it's easy because the code is fairly short) but that's a much larger effort.
< 1744388341 510850 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is meant to be extended with reader macros
< 1744388362 620753 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :its essentially a really small reader macro system based on gnu dc
> 1744388369 791401 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Eafish14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155669&oldid=132999 5* 03Darkloyd255 5* (+9) 10stub
< 1744388373 877291 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :only it uses registers instead of a stack
> 1744388500 496485 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Stackowey14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155670&oldid=155623 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+943) 10
> 1744388531 959807 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unstable14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155671&oldid=155604 5* 03Darkloyd255 5* (+9) 10Stub
> 1744388593 306721 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hydrogen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155672&oldid=155469 5* 03JIT 5* (-4) 10
> 1744388676 73607 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unstable14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155673&oldid=155671 5* 03Darkloyd255 5* (+129) 10
> 1744388846 157975 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfive14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155674&oldid=155666 5* 03Darkloyd255 5* (-108) 10Realized the cat program kinda sucked
< 1744389272 264859 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: Well, it's a fairly minimal wrapper around a subset of portable C. It's also worth knowing how this parallels the APL family, which has a standard pile of criticisms and only caught on because of array-programming idioms.
< 1744389356 149564 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The parser feels like it's been deeply limited by the C way of structuring code combined with the desire to shove everything into a single procedure. Metacompilation seems like an impossible hassle, if you're looking at complexity ceilings.
< 1744390976 81069 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(This "shift command" is also called "switch command")
> 1744392703 45606 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07List of ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155675&oldid=155466 5* 03Photostar 5* (+514) 10
< 1744393699 993570 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo its primary mission is to make it possible in a small space to have reader macros
< 1744393723 177883 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :then once you have reader macros you implement an interpreter for a system that allows for better coding such as better metacompilation
< 1744394233 425166 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: What does your macro system look like?
< 1744394335 242737 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: you write functions that transform stdin into the default op codes
< 1744394349 338137 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean concretely.d
< 1744394380 739511 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :well to show you an example it would take a long time for me to show you a concrete example
< 1744394422 248371 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :its basically like a very very simple assembly language. if you code in any assembly language at all you should be able to learn this assembly language easily
< 1744394426 541619 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay, you don't have to do it. Why would it take a long time?
< 1744394465 778386 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :creating a function by hand can take some time in this assembly language
< 1744394603 373709 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay. To me, that's a sign that the language is too low-level; paraphrasing Perlis, writing a procedure shouldn't require irrelevant details.
< 1744394644 244055 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah this is meant to be able to fit into under 512 bytes of assembler
< 1744394703 399370 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure, but that shouldn't mean that writing a procedure or encoding a function is a long or difficult task.
< 1744394725 242661 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll think about that for a while
< 1744394735 256843 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean, there are languages that are intentionally hard that way, like Malbolge, but I didn't get the impression that you wanted that sort of language.
< 1744394764 425087 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :What details are irrelevant details though? Sometimes some details might not be irrelevant, but higher level programming languages (including C) make it difficult or not possible to specify such things anyways, even if you want to do.
< 1744394765 59901 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :basically all arrays in this language in every cell it contains both an int and a pointer
< 1744394787 337933 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :For example, what does an identity function look like? Or, since you've given I/O, is there a cat program which loops over input and copies it to output?
< 1744394788 279135 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and in a proper function all of the integer slots are filled with instructions with the last instruction being 0
< 1744394829 172502 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so if I want to make a function I have to memory allocate the array and then fill each instruction into its slot one by one
< 1744395254 484557 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: malloc() and arrays seem fairly irrelevant.
< 1744395389 322362 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo how else am I gonna handle data of arbitrary complexity and size input into my program
< 1744395728 120388 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: Don't have an operation for allocating memory; instead, allocate memory as part of certain operations.
< 1744395749 358649 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I disagree; I think that it is meaningful to have a function to allocate memory
< 1744395765 206199 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This style's supposed to imitate Whitney, right? Look at how he allocates memory: https://github.com/kparc/ksimple/tree/main/ref
< 1744395882 411452 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, uh, the annotated file is probably better: https://github.com/kparc/ksimple/blob/main/a.c
< 1744395972 58632 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :He builds primitive words for allocating and freeing vectors, and then immediately builds refcounting on top so that users won't have to worry about it.
< 1744396261 472644 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I haven't read too many other peoples attempts I am just doing what feels right
< 1744397822 834859 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: I see. I did't know that was called "shift", and Bulbapedia wasn't very helpful.
> 1744399312 640050 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Iota14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155676&oldid=155411 5* 03Corbin 5* (+129) 10Infobox, TC proof, cleanup. I read Stay 2005 but didn't find anything interesting.
< 1744400950 504481 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :my calculator is super good
< 1744400977 224657 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo vectors take up too many characters
> 1744401417 360245 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Jot14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155677&oldid=117657 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1493) 10Cleanup, TC proof, links, get closer to Barker's wording.
< 1744401458 200041 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: No worries.
< 1744401510 894147 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've just been cleaning up articles on combinators. By chance, have you seen the language Miranda yet? You're likely familiar with its most popular offspring Haskell, but classically Miranda was just a very nice syntax for a graph-reduction machine that evaluates combinators.
< 1744401545 912280 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ben Lynn has a wonderful step-by-step explanation of how a Miranda-like language can be written in very little code: https://crypto.stanford.edu/~blynn/compiler/
< 1744401702 276630 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo you are much more learned than me on these things but I compensate with my immense autism and schizophrenic ability to see patterns that don't exist
< 1744401744 212015 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d08a:2428:1bec:2dd5 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1744401773 422246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EsoEnglish14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=155678 5* 03Darkloyd255 5* (+3144) 10Created a wip page
> 1744402048 87321 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[070widthnonjoiner14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155679&oldid=155668 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-9) 10this language is in the languages list, so...
> 1744402201 192141 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:AmNow14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155680&oldid=95466 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-1) 10no one fixed the list?
< 1744403274 490230 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :my brain is starting to understand what you mean by my code is too low level
< 1744403279 362457 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I need your high level secrets
< 1744403290 756055 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :what are these high level op codes u speak of
> 1744403570 294262 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EsoEnglish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155681&oldid=155678 5* 03Darkloyd255 5* (+1191) 10Added more detail
> 1744403703 388900 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155682&oldid=155667 5* 03Buckets 5* (+365) 10
< 1744403732 487938 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: I'm referencing a Perlis quote: "A programming language is low level when its programs require attention to the irrelevant." If you haven't seen these before, they are worth a look: https://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/perlis-alan/quotes.html
> 1744403753 369132 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155683&oldid=154985 5* 03Buckets 5* (+364) 10
< 1744403781 557796 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If your macro system is difficult to show to other folks because writing in it requires a lot of attention to irrelevant low-level details, then perhaps there is a higher-level simpler macro system that you could design which removes those details.
> 1744403799 805452 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[074gn/14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=155684 5* 03Buckets 5* (+10710) 10Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=<span style="display: inline-block; transform: rotate(-30deg);">4</span><span style="display:inline-block; transform:scaleX(-1);"><sup><big>g</big></sup></span>''''''''''n<span style="position: relative; display: inline-block;"><span style="position: ab
< 1744403802 517891 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :its just an assembler language tho
< 1744403811 599883 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :its not that significantly different than learning riscv
< 1744403932 753922 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. Although note that RISC-V doesn't, on its own, have malloc(). That's a part of the C language, supported by the OS and target platform. (I do agree that RISC-V has arrays.)
< 1744403999 19472 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Low-level memory layouts are often an irrelevant detail when it comes to writing algorithms. They might matter for an *efficient* implementation of some algorithm, but it's worth remembering that you already chose size as your main concern.
< 1744404190 254505 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah its a really small macro system
< 1744404295 289642 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's a fun oxymoron. IIUC "macro" is short for "macro-instruction", by analogy with "micro-instructions" or "micro-operations" inside a hardware unit; a macro was originally just a sequence of instructions.
< 1744404318 758753 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :micromacro
< 1744404345 260176 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But the idea of "small macro" is interesting. Shutt called the reach of a macro system its "abstractive radius" and proved a couple basic results about what they can't do.
< 1744404355 265325 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In particular, privacy and isolation can't be provided by macros.
< 1744404448 181928 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :what if I use my macros to make lambda calculus
< 1744404607 729739 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Then your macro-expansion phase becomes Turing-complete. If you want that, then look up "vau calculus". Shutt showed that this was practical by creating Kernel Lisp, a Lisp which uses vau calculus and has genuine f-expressions.
< 1744404634 517224 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :my macro system is already Turin complete
< 1744404640 956983 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Proof?
< 1744404651 475238 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it has reader macros
< 1744404660 110028 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it can expand to any arbitrary thing
< 1744404732 421868 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :well pseudo Turing complete because it doesn't have an infinite tape
< 1744404762 373463 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Could you show an example of a macro expansion? Was there a document that explained this, or just the C code?
< 1744404790 917311 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I got to test all of my op codes first
< 1744404798 422074 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I just rewrite this thing from scratch in the last 3 days
< 1744404817 287592 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, I see that you've got a Von Neumann architecture and that the code is probably universally self-modifying. But that has *nothing* to do with macros.
< 1744404832 312845 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :false
< 1744404839 870892 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :you and I are defining macros differently
< 1744404850 709717 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :my macros are special and different than any textbook
< 1744404860 551893 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not seeing a reader, either, so I'm not sure where the reader macros are supposed to hook in.
< 1744404867 773402 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh! Then pick a different word, please.
< 1744404868 960544 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the reader is r
< 1744404913 934194 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe reader macros isn't the right word
> 1744405004 222837 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pysembly14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155685&oldid=155597 5* 03Photostar 5* (+6) 10
< 1744405006 880140 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :A reader macro extends a Lisp runtime so that it can (read) in non-native syntax.
> 1744405014 681705 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Works in progress14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155686&oldid=155651 5* 03Photostar 5* (-57) 10
< 1744405024 2199 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh well we don't use lisp read
< 1744405036 374093 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :how do you define read
< 1744405041 622911 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :They're considered macros because they expand that non-native syntax into standard Lisp syntax.
< 1744405059 802484 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah I can write a function in my language that expands non native syntax into native syntax
< 1744405076 556532 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's just parsing.
> 1744405077 332674 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Photostar14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155687&oldid=155482 5* 03Photostar 5* (+0) 10
< 1744405083 507501 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok parse macros
< 1744405108 843900 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can extend the syntax semantics and grammar via parsing
< 1744405173 105562 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :a certain kind of macro is taking place here you can call it whatever u want but it extends the syntax
< 1744405176 91971 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. Plenty of systems can do that.
< 1744405197 527856 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :mine is designed so that that is all that it does
< 1744405206 486663 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :that is its only objective
< 1744405212 846892 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that https://fexpr.blogspot.com/2013/12/abstractive-power.html might be a good read at some point, although I'll warn you that Shutt is very dense and sometimes I'll have to chew a paragraph for 20 or 30 minutes.
< 1744405241 353316 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Extensibility enthusiasts had hoped, frankly, that by means of language-extension mechanisms it would become possible for everyone to use a single base language and transform it into anything anyone needed for any particular purpose."
< 1744405247 611576 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :abstraction is the most powerful tool in my toolbelt
< 1744405259 568475 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Macro preprocessing, in particular, cannot easily be used to build a series of extensions, one on top of another, because as extension follows extension, the programmer is rapidly overcome by accumulating complexity."
< 1744405317 922217 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: I think that this is a dilemma. If you're working with genuine macros, then you need to accept that there are many limitations to what they can express. Otherwise, I think that whatever you've built for abstraction should not be called "macro".
< 1744405781 833731 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :my intuition tells me that other people likely fail to use macros as effectively as my intuition tells me that I can use them
< 1744405987 354131 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :this article you linked essentially says that extensibility languages as he calls it hasnt been given a serious try since 40 years ago
< 1744405999 214060 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think back then there were probably under a million coders
< 1744406005 66784 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :with no internet
< 1744406021 268496 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :they were all electrical engineers with very similar backgrounds
< 1744406098 338314 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you have the patience for it, Shutt gives a category-theoretic explanation; the obstacles are genuine. It's not a matter of trying hard.
< 1744406173 662415 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"In language L0, records are declared with constant fields, and the fields can then be queried. … Language Lpriv is identical except that individual fields may be declared "private"; private fields cannot be queried, though they can be used when specifying the value of another field in the same record."
< 1744406184 448730 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"It's easy to transform an Lpriv text sequence into a valid L0 sequence:  just remove all the "private" keywords from the field declarations.  This is a macro/polynomial transformation…"
< 1744406285 365352 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But, as they prove in the final few paragraphs, there's no macro which transforms L0 into Lpriv under some reasonable desirable conditions.
< 1744406374 805152 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :well like originally I was sucked in by the idea of one language that could transform into anything
< 1744406380 363762 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that is no longer my goal
< 1744406402 885657 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway, no, the reason that the extensibility movement collapsed around that time is because of a much broader cultural revolution. UNIX is likely a big contributor; instead of trying to write monolithic mainframe applications that did everything, we switched to composition of smaller applications.
< 1744406441 885848 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah I mean I think I am trying to do something a little different with this extension language
< 1744406444 228814 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Relevant to this channel, the Turing-tarpit movement broke away from mainstream computing at that time too.
< 1744406467 161887 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't agree that the definition of Turing tarpit maps to reality
< 1744406481 30610 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the definition of Turing tarpit assumes that languages that people call Turing tarpits are useless
< 1744406507 29316 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :What definition? Perlis' definition is: "Beware of the Turing tar-pit in which everything is possible but nothing of interest is easy."
< 1744406541 447043 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Turing machines and lambda calculus are tarpits. Computability theory still studies tarpits today.
< 1744406575 578602 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think my goals for this extension language are not as broad or far reaching as the goals of those monolithig guys in the 1960s
< 1744406595 876274 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am not planning on loading it up with heaps and heaps of macros. just a few good macros that make a language that I want
< 1744406650 218626 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. Sounds like fun.
< 1744407762 769700 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1744407930 408690 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: zzo38: I think most Pokémon players refer to the command that replaces your active Pokémon with a different one as "switching Pokémon"
< 1744407954 749059 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Yes, I mentioned that is another name for it
< 1744407964 408379 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"shift" is used in the options menu for a setting that gives you a free switch whenever an opponent's Pokémon faints, but isn't widely used otherwise
< 1744408008 18681 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and my sense is that most serious Pokémon players like to pretend that the shift option doesn't exist, because the battle system is balanced much better without the free switch)
< 1744408062 125940 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also think it is better without, and I always disable that option anyways
< 1744408202 167388 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :getting basically any battle command for free is very powerful, even if it isn't very good (e.g. Growl is generally considered very weak as a move, but Intimidate, which gives the same effect as Growl for free upon switching in, is very strong)
< 1744408233 281252 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and switching is one of the more useful battle commands, and giving that for free to someone who is winning is very unbalancing
< 1744408242 791521 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Some implementations (e.g. Pokemon Unbound) do say "shift" on the menu to switch out your active pokemon for another, although some say "switch"
< 1744408488 647693 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I agree that is unbalancing so it should take up a turn. Although, that shift mode only applies in the single player game anyways I think; some versions have a "semi-shift" mode that you are not allowed to see what the opponent's next pokemon is, but none I have seen have "opponent shift" option that gives opponent the opportunity to do but the player does not.
< 1744408555 548144 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, an opponent shift would be pointless in singles because a shift triggers after a Pokémon faints, and when a Pokémon faints you have to replace it, so the opponent already got a choice of what to replace it with and there's no reason to let them immediately change their mind
< 1744408567 107226 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it might make sense in doubles – if one Pokémon faints, you get to switch out the other for free
< 1744408620 201436 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :That is not what I meant. I meant the single player story mode, not a competitive battle, where when the player's pokemon faints the gym leader (or whoever it is) is allowed to switch for free.
< 1744408629 247893 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, I see
< 1744408678 247521 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Pokémon's AI is generally not very good even in the later generations, where lots of complex logic has been added to try to make it act intelligently
< 1744408699 228665 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so maybe NPC shifting wasn't implemented because it would be too difficult to get it to make reasonable decisoins
< 1744408766 314427 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Some unofficial versions have improved AI (although still have some problems)
< 1744408815 826784 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The battle I was describing though, was not the single player story mode, which does not use random teams or random rules anyways)
< 1744408837 35525 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's actually really hard to write a good AI for even really simple versions of Pokémon because the optimal strategy is usually a mixed strategy
< 1744408997 809387 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, I would expect so (much of the strategy is you have to guess if opponent will switch out, and other stuff), but still it could be improved from what official versions and even some things in unofficial versions; I have seen situations where the AI's selection does not seem to make much sense at all (especially if Explosion is involved, in my experience)
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> 1744410610 631149 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155688&oldid=155639 5* 03Cosmnik 5* (+142) 10add myself
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