Hello,&%239;,&%239;world!&%2310;Hello,&%239;,&%239;world!!
< 1744904679 244765 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(it took me an annoyingly long time to work out how to type a tab in a data: URI)
< 1744904820 164259 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, I think you're right. I would never have guessed that as the rule.
< 1744904845 289989 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :isn't it fairly natural for a rule that comes up if you aren't thinking about the case at all?
< 1744904865 620129 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :FWIW, Firefox does the same thing too
< 1744904909 390912 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in general I am quite upset about typical handling of tabs
< 1744904976 887424 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :especially the way people reused the tab character for indentation even though its traditional meaning is too wide – I would be fine with a different character for indentation tab, but a tabulation tab is much too wide to be usable for indentation
< 1744904995 601301 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :example image of Winword with tabs: https://i.sstatic.net/XWkhvo4c.png
< 1744905028 98924 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so editors have to choose between interpreting tabs as indentation (common in programming editors nowadays), interpreting tabs as tabulation (which was tradtional), interpreting tabs as elastic tabs (which works really well but nobody implements), and implementing a somewhat awkward tab width of 8 which is too wide for indentation and too narrow for tabulation
< 1744905061 855028 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the traditional meaning is that you put user-defined tabs to any column you want by moving these little metal clips on a rail on the expensive typewriter
< 1744905075 595612 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you set the margins the same way
< 1744905080 510560 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yep, traditionally tabstops were settable
< 1744905120 359197 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, one of the first systems I learned to program on (and the first where I was aware of what a tab even was) had 14-character tabstops, I don't know whether they were changeable or not but it was 14 by default
< 1744905155 470294 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :elastic tabstops make the tabs the minimum width that causes them to line up correctly, so they expand to the data when being used for tabulation
< 1744905183 830829 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and for indentation any width will do, so you can make them configurable there)
< 1744905200 203687 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, admittedly that example image is a little unclear because the first and third column has close to the same length
< 1744905329 29149 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :here's a clearer example: https://i.sstatic.net/FyO3Ss3V.png
< 1744905362 432210 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I use TSV sometimes as an equivalent to CSV (it's basically CSV but you replace the commas with tabs, and generally deal only with data for which you don't need a quoting or escape syntax)
< 1744905382 334178 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the csvs that I'm working with are actually tab-separated
< 1744905390 792403 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the c doesn't stand for comma or colon anywhere
< 1744905395 809918 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is so much better than CSV – if you have wide enough tab stops (or elastic tabs) it lines up neatly in your editor or pager, and it's much simpler to parse due to not needing to escape commas
< 1744905400 539296 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :s/anywhere/anymore/
< 1744905413 803754 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, I don't call it CSV unless it uses comma as a column separator and double-quotes strings that contain commas
< 1744905426 980675 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the double quotes are present
< 1744905446 910615 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and then you need a further escape syntax for strings that contain both double quotes and commas – I think doubling the double quote is most sensible, otherwise you need a third escape character and a way to escape that)
< 1744905507 383173 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, how does CSV that quotes text handle numbers that contain commas?
< 1744905516 889570 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :are you supposed to just not use it in mainland Europe?
< 1744905557 664088 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…or separate the columns with periods, I guess
< 1744905572 116434 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :numbers could be quoted just fine, but I haven't seen actually comma-separated csvs for a while, only tab, semicolon, or colon separated
< 1744905606 680200 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, if you're quoting even with tab separators, the quoting presumably has a purpose other than escaping commas
< 1744905614 323625 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I think it might be to distinguish numbers from text
< 1744905620 790109 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :otherwise you're just quoting things for no reason
< 1744905640 943181 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :including semicolon-separated ones written by a stupid program that doesn't bother to escape newlines in any way so the csv is ambiguous
< 1744905671 971152 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel like if your data contains raw newlines inside the fields, CSV is probably an inappropriate format anyway
< 1744905696 209123 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but most of them are just tab separated, values can be surrounded by a double-quote in which case a double-quote is represented by two double-quotes and a tab or newline is literal; if a value isn't surrounded by double quotes then it mustn't contain double quotes or tabs or newlines.
< 1744905747 319582 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :also most of them are in utf-16-le, but I have a few utf-8 ones as well
< 1744905769 130959 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, I'm using csv for compatibility with multiple other programs, not because I like it as a format
< 1744905773 430528 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :does Windows still use UTF-16 by default?
< 1744905780 169529 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, well, "still" is a bit of a weird term
< 1744905798 480432 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"by default" is ambiguous here
< 1744905801 629537 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1744905818 510882 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it just provides a bunch of APIs and leaves it up to the developer to navigate them
< 1744905846 491053 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think, for a long time, the choice was between UTF-16 or a locale-specific 8-bit codepage
< 1744905862 830095 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and more recently UTF-8 was added but I'm not sure how it integrates or even which set of APIs it uses
< 1744905872 470404 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm leaning towards thinking that it uses the 8-bit APIs? but I'm not sure
< 1744905888 278575 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Excel can read tab-separated csv in just about any encoding, or it can save as tab-separated csv in either utf-16-le or locale-dependent encoding, but the locale-dependent can't represent every character so that's usually not a good idea. The other program I work with reads and writes only utf-16-le encoded tab-separated csv.
< 1744905925 263138 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, exactly, utf-16-le is supported in the most cases, so that's the default in some sense
< 1744905957 791505 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1744905975 910723 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1744906532 343861 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unvague14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=156102&oldid=156055 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+80) 10I think I get the joke, but it should still have categories
> 1744906664 277179 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07idioma14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=156103 5* 03Imakesi 5* (+3013) 10Created page with "'''idioma''' is a Brainfuck clone in which every command is a different language. The name for it is taken from the 2 most popular languages by population, Mandarin Chinese, and Spanish.  is programming, and idioma is language.  In idioma, every line is a different comma
> 1744906704 841360 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07List of ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=156104&oldid=155771 5* 03Imakesi 5* (-52) 10
> 1744906790 886258 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=156105&oldid=156026 5* 03Imakesi 5* (+53) 10/* Brainfuck derivatives */
> 1744906845 394503 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated CreativeASM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=156106&oldid=142062 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+2) 10
> 1744907192 622331 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pro46514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=156107&oldid=140447 5* 03Pro465 5* (-2) 10
< 1744910052 405584 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:c0e6:9a43:de22:8c0a QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
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> 1744911960 376903 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/brainfuck program naming scheme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=156108&oldid=156013 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-248) 10never mind
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> 1744916540 337639 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Befunge14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=156109&oldid=156032 5* 03Buckets 5* (+6) 10
> 1744917564 701781 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Formal grammar14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=156110&oldid=155825 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+5098) 10More info
> 1744918176 157251 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Filename "xxx" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=156111&oldid=156078 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+0) 10trolololo. nope
> 1744918229 732640 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Vague14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=156112&oldid=156076 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-143) 10was that really nesesary?
> 1744918332 544566 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Siim 5*  10New user account
> 1744918380 392640 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Befunk14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=156113&oldid=156077 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-69) 10technicaly thats a program. not a command
> 1744918644 340982 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NQ14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=156114 5* 03K 5* (+1005) 10Created page with "{{WIP}} NQ is a queue-based programming language created by User K. It operates on an infinite 1-trit queue and a single flag trit, which initially holds the value 0.  Each trit is a trinary digit that can be in one of three states: 0, 1 or 2.  Instructions are executed from left 
> 1744918803 296347 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=156115&oldid=155966 5* 03Siim 5* (+176) 10/* Introductions */
> 1744919014 651919 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Siim14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=156116 5* 03Siim 5* (+67) 10Created page with "== fredqz ==  I am from Estonia, I have created AksuPaksu and JUICE"
> 1744919066 260301 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=156117&oldid=156090 5* 03Buckets 5* (+12) 10
> 1744919093 36484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=156118&oldid=156020 5* 03Buckets 5* (+11) 10
> 1744919102 575204 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07What?14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=156119 5* 03Buckets 5* (+722) 10Created page with "What? is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2020. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |}  Every 0.000001s/Character, It turns the length of the Program then Put it into Octal and put The corresponding Numbers 0-7 into [[brainfuck
> 1744919235 165444 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=156120&oldid=156117 5* 03K 5* (+9) 10added nq so cool!
> 1744919364 36624 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NQ14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=156121&oldid=156114 5* 03K 5* (+90) 10Added Categories
> 1744919860 378644 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=156122&oldid=154877 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+270) 10yay trutvh machine works
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< 1744927005 807228 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
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< 1744931167 221719 :m15k47on1c!~m15k47on1@189.62.151.15 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
> 1744931420 279849 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Aadenboy 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:MCBDigits0-F.png10]]"
> 1744931639 31711 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/draft214]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=156124 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+357) 10draft
> 1744933382 400451 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07idioma14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=156125&oldid=156103 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+104) 10
< 1744933908 593386 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
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> 1744934006 576543 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/draft214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=156126&oldid=156124 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+2245) 10draft
> 1744934100 889847 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=156127&oldid=156089 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+27) 10for combine match 1 29275 match 2 66 all i do put-char latter i all