00:09:17 [[Special:Log/move]] move * Dgt2016 * moved [[ARLPLWAAWN]] to [[Fava]]: I changed name to my lang :3 00:09:55 [[ARLPLWAAWN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157319&oldid=157318 * Dgt2016 * (-18) Blanked the page 01:07:35 [[User:Dgt2016]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157320&oldid=157196 * Dgt2016 * (-149) 01:14:32 [[Fava]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157321&oldid=157317 * Dgt2016 * (+346) 01:19:40 [[Shifted brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157322&oldid=157173 * L4.m2 * (+58) 02:26:38 [[FCompiler]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=157323 * I am islptng * (+1496) Created page with "{{lowercase}}{{stub}} [https://tio.run/##jVZNb@M2ED1bv2KiYrES7BrJ9uYih0W7BYoWbbHopRB0UKRxTIemFIra2Cj2t6dvSEqWk6DtxZBG8/Fm3vDR3cntWvPd83PdNky3VJTJ005ppj/twJtk4ewJvwuDT8p0g8vyde@s6rIcVrWl9Col0zp8JLMhcTPrvtPKZen3aV5cl5fucLilNN1Q3RqnzMAwS@V11XVsmszAj481d44@/f7TJ2tbu6 02:26:58 [[User:I am islptng/Draft]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157324&oldid=156876 * I am islptng * (-3117) Blanked the page 02:28:02 [[FCompiler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157325&oldid=157323 * I am islptng * (+202) 03:44:24 -!- impomatic has joined. 07:11:39 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 07:15:08 -!- tromp has joined. 07:43:45 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:30:15 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: Client closed). 08:45:29 [[FCompiler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157326&oldid=157325 * I am islptng * (+1870) 08:50:08 -!- impomatic has joined. 08:56:13 [[;;;*++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157327&oldid=157302 * TenBillionPlusOne * (+93) /* Implementation */ 08:56:22 [[;;;*++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157328&oldid=157327 * TenBillionPlusOne * (-12) /* Implementation */ 09:08:42 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:09:30 [[User:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157329&oldid=157167 * I am islptng * (+190) 09:15:20 [[User:TenBillionPlusOne]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157330&oldid=157304 * TenBillionPlusOne * (+817) 09:15:56 [[User:TenBillionPlusOne]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157331&oldid=157330 * TenBillionPlusOne * (+4) /* Users */ 09:17:12 [[BooleanFunge/Interpreter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157332&oldid=157244 * TenBillionPlusOne * (+51) 09:27:46 [[Parenthesys]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157333&oldid=157149 * TenBillionPlusOne * (+451) /* Examples */ 09:27:55 [[Parenthesys]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157334&oldid=157333 * TenBillionPlusOne * (+0) /* plushie-completeness proof */ 09:32:50 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: Client closed). 09:33:22 -!- Melvar has joined. 10:05:25 -!- FreeFull has joined. 10:05:52 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…). 11:41:53 [[Parenthesys]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157335&oldid=157334 * JIT * (+0) 12:09:12 -!- chiselfuse has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 12:09:33 -!- chiselfuse has joined. 12:25:33 -!- ajal has joined. 12:25:48 -!- amby has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:26:41 [[MetaInterpreter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157336&oldid=155195 * JIT * (-298) 12:27:39 [[MetaInterpreter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157337&oldid=157336 * JIT * (+298) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/157336|157336]] by [[Special:Contributions/JIT|JIT]] ([[User talk:JIT|talk]]) 12:55:41 [[User:TenBillionPlusOne]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157338&oldid=157331 * TenBillionPlusOne * (+5) /* Users */ 13:26:54 -!- tromp has joined. 13:53:27 Hm. I'm wondering if one of the other editor communities (on Discord?) saw the articles about historical metainterpreters, got confused, and decided that the only way to understand the concept is by creating their own metainterpreters. 13:55:08 It occurs to me that there's two distinct ways of editing. The path I'm currently on is to build some stuff, and then document it if it could be interesting to others. Their path feels like some sort of land-grab or vanity publishing, where the important thing is to slap one's name onto territory. 14:06:25 -!- sprout has quit (Quit: leaving). 14:20:46 -!- sprout has joined. 14:33:44 -!- Sgeo has joined. 14:37:30 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 14:41:18 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 14:41:24 -!- sprout has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 14:42:15 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 14:44:23 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:44:53 korvo: I think that for those people, the act of editing is the output/creative step 14:45:15 like, they're exploring esolangs live through the medium of wiki pages 14:45:58 I'm not sure that all of them even know how to program, but in some sense, that doesn't actually matter – it's interesting that someone can be involved in esolang development without understanding programming, but in a way it makes sense 14:48:14 ais523: Well, it helps when we recall that humanity has no idea how to use a computer. 14:49:11 It also helps when we note that linguists have historically not only looked at formality as a technical curiosity but as an abomination which fundamentally can't describe natural languages. 14:49:45 Combine those and you get the typical conlanger, who doesn't want to talk about maths or computation but otherwise thinks that they can describe the universe. 14:50:21 "the ways in which natural languages differ from formalisations of them" is an interesting topic to study 14:50:55 I think my speech is closer to matching a hypothetical formal grammar for English than most peoples' is, and i think that's a consequence of all the time I've spent programming 14:51:44 I know that it's because I learned grammar trees as a child. Curiously, most of my cohort was presented with grammar too, but it didn't rub off on them. 14:52:16 Programmers don't have the luxury of not using grammars. 14:52:19 I am reminded of things like trying to put "only" in the exact correct location in a sentence to convey exactly the meaning I want 14:52:51 that's quite reminiscent of programming in a golfing language 14:52:52 I recently saw somebody complain that "technical", as used by computer-touchers, isn't well-defined. It's actually quite simple: to be technical is to be shallow and pedantic, to only care about details, to be incapable of assembling a big picture without noticing every brush stroke. 14:53:01 And of course, that's precisely what a computer demands. 14:53:36 Sure. Non-programmers who learn Lojban have to do a similar thing for placement of {po'o}; it's a wider phenomenon. 14:53:57 I have been playing a lot of nomic recently, one of the skills in that game is to correctly interpret English sentences that may have been incorrectly written, and produce an exact pedantic meaning from them even if it wasn't the meaning that was intended 14:57:35 This is a very interesting philosophical difference between us! I prefer playing when the system has goal or win conditions, or when comparison is possible, but otherwise I'm not interested. And I feel that way despite usually being near the bottom of the leaderboard. 14:58:17 Nomic and similar systems are immediately not interesting; of course there's no context-free denotative semantics for languages like English, and so the resulting game is going to be wild in a way which doesn't have goals, winning, or comparisons. 14:58:56 well, nomic as a game normally explicitly does have win conditions, written in English – even if there isn't one explicitly, there's always the inherent win condition of "change the rules to add a win condition, then achieve it" 14:59:34 but it often turns into a game that's more about arguing how to interpret the rules than it is about actually trying to win by following the surface meaning of the rules 15:00:16 Right. The metagame is rather obvious. Suppose I can do more pushups than my peer, but they can outrun me; those prior comparisons are easily converted into preferences for how the rules ought to evolve. 15:00:48 If we instead act from behind a veil of ignorance, then the game becomes too symmetric for analysis, and it's purely about which player has the strongest rhetoric. 15:00:53 -!- sprout has joined. 15:00:54 indeed – the second-level metagame that evolves from that is less obvious, though 15:01:31 I'm still not sure I (or anyone else) has really figured out that second level despite years of trying 15:02:00 Nah, it's the same metagame that we play in the workplace or any other social group, and it's IMO fairly well-described by Gervais theory. For Nomic, the relevant dialect is Powertalk, the rhetoric of establishing what is known by each player and what can be bargained. 15:02:52 I happen to be a lifelong Loser, and perhaps that's why I don't care for Nomic. I *could* be a Sociopath, and sometimes I do that in order to get shit done, but fundamentally I understand that Sociopaths are harmful to society at large. 15:03:35 (Reminder: the topic is the perennial observation that the wiki seems to be treated as a graffiti wall by a large segment of contributors.) 15:03:40 so there's a common metastrategy in nomic, sometimes called "pooling", where a set of players cooperate in order to cause one of those players to win, at the expense of the others – in many cases the choice of who will win is decided at random 15:04:09 Sure. The corresponding sociological pattern is called "tontine". 15:04:12 say two people pool, and decide they have a 90% chance for the pool to win but a less than 45% chance for either player to individually win, that makes it rational 15:05:27 but, many people (including me) find this an uninteresting way to play because it tends to obviate all other strategies except "scamming" (exploiting non-obvious wording mistakes in the rules in order to get a large advantage, typically an instant win) 15:05:40 so, it's common to add rules to make pooling more difficult or less beneficial 15:08:11 -!- tromp has joined. 15:08:18 the whole thing with the wiki is complicated because it is hard to say that the "low-effort" (as it were) contributions are invalid or unwanted – it's engaging with esolangs primarily/purely as an art form but that's a valid way to interact with them 15:08:51 I think the ideal fix would involve somehow making the higher-effort contributions more searchable 15:09:07 -!- tromp has quit (Client Quit). 15:09:54 Of course. Similarly, I think I've said before that graffiti is art. It's also politically important, as it indicates to leadership what the common people think of their opinions. 15:10:41 I don't think I've made many esolangs purely as art 15:10:45 Note that it is fairly straightforward to figure out whether something is a language. In that sense, we shouldn't really have trouble deciding whether submissions are invalid. 15:11:10 there's Forte for which the aesthetics are important 15:11:16 Art is never pure. Art is cultural warfare. Art is expression of a meme within a contextual sea of memes. 15:11:23 -!- tromp has joined. 15:11:47 ah, I personally see art as an attempt to communicate things that can't easily be stated directly 15:12:05 Monte is art. It's ugly, baroque, and nonetheless terser, faster, and safer than Python or F♯, and that's the memetic statement we wanted to make. 15:12:51 I agree that it can be very dependent on context, though (and even when it isn't obviously dependent on context, is normally dependent on being perceived by a human) 15:13:24 Oh, "art" isn't a monosemous collection or relation. Rather, whenever we have memetic expression on some substrate, we could say that those memes are art. 15:13:35 fwiw I think even the "than Python or F♯" part of your sentence is art in its own way 15:14:12 there is meaning in juxtaposing those two languages in particular, as most programmers typically wouldn't consider them similar enough to be included in the same comparison 15:15:08 hmpf, I guess it's hard to overload && and keep short-circuit evaluation. https://z3prover.github.io/api/html/namespacez3.html#aff9c56735ebfc47895ef746515c09096 15:15:45 int-e: indeed, you would need an overload feature that works for control flow operators, not just arithmetic operators 15:16:04 (solution was to do a && bool(expr) instead of a && expr) 15:16:30 it is probably possible to make something like that work via having a language that "lazifies" arguments based on what function/method/operator is being caled 15:16:31 * called 15:16:43 ais523: Yeah I know. The complaint is really that it looked so innocent in the source code :-) 15:16:49 but it is also probably clearer to explicitly wrap the possibly-unevaluated arguments in closures 15:18:26 ais523: FWIW the conlang community has long recognized the idea of artlangs and recognizes that there's a fairly dramatic difference between e.g. loglangs and artlangs. 15:18:30 Oh well, at least I didn't spend terribly long debugging this, just a few minutes. 15:18:46 There would not be much shame in recognizing that some of the wiki is dedicated to logic and some to art. 15:19:08 Perl and Tcl both support user-defined subroutines that accept blocks as arguments, and can decide how much to evaluate them 15:19:25 korvo: indeed, and in some cases the lines blur 15:19:36 but there are more cases where it's clearly separate 15:19:38 Meanwhile I remain genuinely puzzled about the existence of [[language list]]. I recognize that we're not beholden to English WP's expectations about database use (hence all the redirects) but I still think that such a large manually-curated page is an antipattern. 15:20:12 it made more sense in the past, when there were fewer languages on the wiki 15:20:16 ais523: Alternatively, consider: Perhaps the art of e.g. Lojban is that the meme being expressed to society is logical structure itself. 15:20:50 I do find that it's in some sense a useful filter of effort – if people can't be bothered to even add their language to the list it says something about how much effort they think it's worth 15:20:51 I think "loglang" is a fairly well-delineated category which happens to include most proglangs. 15:21:17 Sure. And that's why I don't add my languages to the list; I don't think that anybody else should actually use my work. 15:22:04 "use" is a loaded verb here 15:22:24 there are some languages that aren't really intended to be programmed in, but instead need to exist for some other reason (e.g. producing proofs) 15:22:36 No, not really. I think that reading about my work could be interesting, but actually using anything I've designed or built is folly. 15:22:38 is that using them? 15:22:52 Do you use any of my languages in that way? 15:23:41 so far I haven't – but that's at least partly because I've been struggling with mental health since before I met you, so I haven't really had the mental bandwidth to look at anyone else's esolangs in much detail 15:24:03 I have a fairly straightforward point. I suspect that you're not thrilled to learn that I don't care about myself or my creative output. 15:24:37 Oh, don't worry about that. I was born mad and time hasn't really helped. I'm not here to judge, I'm here to improve the wiki. 15:25:27 all this reminds me of an esolang that I've been meaning to document for a while 15:25:44 it's not clearly useful for anything, other than being a TCness proving challenge, and exists mostly because of an aesthetic goal 15:28:02 Good times. 15:39:49 [[Symmetric Echo Tag]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=157339 * Ais523 * (+1754) an idea I've had for a while and probably ought to document 15:40:27 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157340&oldid=157308 * Ais523 * (+25) /* S */ Symmetric Echo Tag 15:44:36 I've posted it, anyway – it's lower-effort than many of my languages, but may have value in not being obviously Turing-complete nor obviously Turing-incomplete 15:51:14 I appreciate your effort. Thanks for sharing. 15:59:02 [[Topple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157341&oldid=157180 * H33T33 * (-213) 15:59:38 [[Topple]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157342&oldid=157341 * H33T33 * (+0) 16:02:14 [[Topple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157343&oldid=157342 * H33T33 * (-1) 16:04:02 [[Topple]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157344&oldid=157343 * H33T33 * (-184) 16:07:26 [[Topple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157345&oldid=157344 * H33T33 * (+23) 16:10:17 [[Topple]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157346&oldid=157345 * H33T33 * (+76) 16:29:59 [[Symmetric Echo Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157347&oldid=157339 * Hakerh400 * (+181) Implement 16:32:25 wow, that was fast 16:32:34 (I was expecting someone to do that… just not that quickly) 16:33:14 and to clarify, because English is ambiguous sometimes: "expecting" in the sense of "I thought it would happen" rather than "I thought it should happen" 16:43:08 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 16:54:09 [[Topple]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157348&oldid=157346 * H33T33 * (+1) 16:56:21 [[Bobble]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157349&oldid=157122 * H33T33 * (+0) /* Hello, World! */ 16:58:43 -!- impomatic has joined. 17:00:04 -!- ajal has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:00:28 -!- amby has joined. 17:01:50 -!- tromp has joined. 17:09:14 [[User:TenBillionPlusOne]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157350&oldid=157338 * TenBillionPlusOne * (+51) /* Users */ 17:09:37 [[User:TenBillionPlusOne]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157351&oldid=157350 * TenBillionPlusOne * (+39) /* Users */ 17:11:52 [[User:TenBillionPlusOne]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157352&oldid=157351 * TenBillionPlusOne * (-2) /* Users */ 17:33:43 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:34:16 Good Night 17:50:48 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kyrsig * New user account 17:57:44 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:02:13 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 18:27:56 [[User:TenBillionPlusOne]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157353&oldid=157352 * TenBillionPlusOne * (+174) /* Announcement */ 18:29:55 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 19:08:50 -!- b_jonas has joined. 19:20:18 [[Interpreter modification]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=157354 * TenBillionPlusOne * (+748) Created page with "'''Interpreter-modifying''' is a concept invented by [[User:TBPO]], through it was used a few times before. An interpreter-modifying esoteric programming language is an esolang that can modify the way it interprets the code in runtime. A basi 19:20:59 [[Interpreter modification]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157355&oldid=157354 * TenBillionPlusOne * (+30) 19:25:34 [[FAGI]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=157356 * Lucaz37 * (+3102) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=FAGI |author=[[Lucaz37]] |year=[[:Category:2025|2025]] |memsys=Both Cell-based and Stack-based |dimensions=one-dimensional |class=[[:Category:Turing complete|Turing complete]] |files=.fagi, .fg }} THIS IS STILL WORK IN PR 19:27:43 [[Special:Log/move]] move * TenBillionPlusOne * moved [[Interpreter modification]] to [[Interpreter-modifying]]: Misspelled title 19:29:01 [[Candrabindu]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=157359 * * (+739) Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title= }} '''''' is a stack-based esolang using diacritics. There are 52 different stacks, one for each letter uppercase or lowercase. The operation to perform is based on the diacritic on the letter. {| class="wikitable" |+ Commands |- | || Pushes a 1 onto t 19:33:17 [[Candrabindu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157360&oldid=157359 * * (+145) 19:43:39 [[Interpreter-modifying]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157361&oldid=157357 * TenBillionPlusOne * (+4) 20:26:06 [[BrainGuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157362&oldid=118911 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+438) Introduced an examples section comprehending one incipial member in a restricted reverse cat program. 20:27:34 [[BrainGuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157363&oldid=157362 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+187) Marked the original interpreter as expired and added a hyperlink to my implementation on GitHub. 20:27:58 [[Interpreter-modifying]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157364&oldid=157361 * TenBillionPlusOne * (+46) 20:29:51 [[Interpreter-modifying]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157365&oldid=157364 * TenBillionPlusOne * (+10) 20:33:50 [[Candrabindu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157366&oldid=157360 * * (+167) 20:34:25 [[Interpreterion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157367&oldid=157253 * TenBillionPlusOne * (+13) /* Implementation notes */ 20:41:13 [[Forever]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=157368 * Helpeesl * (+2010) Created page with "==Intro== Forever is an esolang created by [[User:Helpeesl]] on May 8th 2025ad designed to have really long programs without doing stuff like [[Lenguage]](i.e. not using an instruction set thats tied to the length of the line/program). ==Commands== The commands were de 20:41:36 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: Client closed). 20:42:26 [[Interpreterion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157369&oldid=157367 * TenBillionPlusOne * (+45) /* Implementation notes */ 20:51:18 -!- tromp has joined. 21:39:54 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 21:51:05 -!- tromp has joined. 21:54:22 -!- izabera has changed nick to isabella. 22:18:40 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157370&oldid=157340 * Buckets * (+11) 22:19:09 [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=157371&oldid=157313 * Buckets * (+10) 22:19:35 [[Ttem]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=157372 * Buckets * (+1191) Created page with "{{Stub}} Ttem is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2024. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | [ || Start a set. |- | ] || End a set. |- | + || +1. |- | - || -1. |- | , || A comma for the set. |- | ! || Instruct. |} Ttem was 22:35:27 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. 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