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00:41:57 <esolangs> [[Steve's Lava Chicken Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158595&oldid=158570 * MihaiEso * (+42)
00:47:04 <esolangs> [[MATE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=158596 * I am islptng * (+1275) Created page with "::''This is [[PAL]] version 2.0 .'' '''MATE''', which stands for "'''M'''ATE: '''A'''rray-processing '''T'''ree '''E'''valuator", will be made by islptng. {{WIP}} == Data types == * '''Number''': A rational. * '''Character''': Literally just a character. * '''List'
00:47:52 <esolangs> [[PAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158597&oldid=155491 * I am islptng * (-9) No longer a WIP because I give up.
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05:11:08 <esolangs> [[Talk:Where is my esolang?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158598&oldid=158566 * Cycwin * (+36)
05:48:40 <zzo38> I had mentioned before about capability-based systems, and whether or not testing equality of capabilities should be allowed (and what ones should be considered as equal).
05:49:38 <zzo38> However, for the way I had thought of network transparency, I think that it may be necessary to be able to test equality of capabilities (even if two different sources give it to you), since the network protocol will need to be able to assign a temporary identifier to these capabilities, and doing it without might make it inefficient.
05:50:23 <zzo38> However, with proxy capabilities, you can still always force a capability to be unequal, and if you have nothing else to compare it to, you still cannot verify it, and the inability to verify it in this way is, in my opinion, a helpful security feature.
05:51:09 <zzo38> In addition, for some things where "identification capabilities" would be helpful, this equality of capabilities also is useful.
05:51:33 <zzo38> (Although it may be possible to do this without, it might be too inefficient to do.)
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09:12:03 <esolangs> [[SBFC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=158599 * L4.m2 * (+526) Created page with "SBFC(Shifted Brainfuck Compressed) is a compressed version of [[Shifted brainfuck]]. Three instructions result 343 possible combinations. If <code>+-</code>, <code>-+</code>, <code><></code>, <code>><</code>, <code>[]</code>, <code>][</code> and <code>..</code> are not allow
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11:25:57 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158600&oldid=158556 * PrySigneToFry * (+498)
11:30:17 <esolangs> [[Polydeuces]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=158601 * PrySigneToFry * (+5766) Created page with "{{AKA|title=}} {{AKA|title=Brainfuck 2.1}} Polydeuces is a programming language designed by PSTF. It have only one dialect, Castor. = Inspiration of the name of this language and dialect = In Greek mythology, Polydeuces, along with his twin brother Castor, b
11:32:23 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158602&oldid=158587 * PrySigneToFry * (+17)
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11:48:22 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/PSTF Again]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=158603 * PrySigneToFry * (+7886) Created page with "What the [[Translated SLet/3/MihaiEso_Again|fck]]!!!!!! 1. Take the s***. <pre> It's time to share, to share i..."
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11:59:12 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/MihaiEso Again]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158604&oldid=158581 * PrySigneToFry * (+51)
12:17:02 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/PSTF Again]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158605&oldid=158603 * MihaiEso * (+39)
12:33:01 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/MihaiEso Again+]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=158606 * MihaiEso * (+10357) Created page with "What the [[Translated SLet/3/PSTF_Again|fck]]!!!!!! 1. Take the ****. <pre class='rectwrap'> G Oude Oufu Wusi..."
12:36:58 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158607&oldid=158600 * Hotcrystal0 * (+479)
12:37:24 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158608&oldid=158607 * Hotcrystal0 * (+15)
12:37:56 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158609&oldid=158608 * Hotcrystal0 * (-8)
12:38:05 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158610&oldid=158609 * Hotcrystal0 * (+1)
12:38:19 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158611&oldid=158610 * Hotcrystal0 * (+10)
12:38:41 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158612&oldid=158611 * Hotcrystal0 * (-9)
12:38:53 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158613&oldid=158612 * Hotcrystal0 * (+6)
12:39:53 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158614&oldid=158613 * Hotcrystal0 * (-491)
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12:45:07 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158615&oldid=158614 * Hotcrystal0 * (+95)
12:46:34 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158616&oldid=158615 * Hotcrystal0 * (+7)
12:48:44 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158617&oldid=158616 * Hotcrystal0 * (+3)
12:52:49 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158618&oldid=158617 * Hotcrystal0 * (+1)
12:57:56 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158619&oldid=158618 * Hotcrystal0 * (+8) is different from because does not gain any powers from crossing the river.
12:58:29 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158620&oldid=158619 * Hotcrystal0 * (+0)
12:59:44 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158621&oldid=158620 * Hotcrystal0 * (+0)
13:00:56 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158622&oldid=158621 * Hotcrystal0 * (-5)
13:14:47 <esolangs> [[Talk:WhatLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158623&oldid=158519 * Cycwin * (+8) /* About whatlang with only symbols is tc */
13:15:19 <esolangs> [[User:TenBillionPlusOne]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158624&oldid=158547 * TenBillionPlusOne * (+4)
13:15:33 <esolangs> [[Hakerh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158625&oldid=157805 * TenBillionPlusOne * (-79)
13:15:48 <esolangs> [[Hakerh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158626&oldid=158625 * TenBillionPlusOne * (-90)
13:17:24 <esolangs> [[Transformation is complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158627&oldid=158441 * TenBillionPlusOne * (-125)
13:17:58 <esolangs> [[User:TenBillionPlusOne]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158628&oldid=158624 * TenBillionPlusOne * (+21) /* Users */
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13:24:27 <esolangs> [[Atemlanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158629&oldid=156756 * TenBillionPlusOne * (+640)
13:25:31 <esolangs> [[User:TenBillionPlusOne]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158630&oldid=158628 * TenBillionPlusOne * (-13) /* Other stuff */
13:25:45 <esolangs> [[User:TenBillionPlusOne]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158631&oldid=158630 * TenBillionPlusOne * (+21) /* Concepts */
13:26:34 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158632&oldid=158549 * Cycwin * (+111) /* Any interests on joining our Esolang Tencent QQ group? */
13:28:18 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/Hotcrystal0]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=158633 * Hotcrystal0 * (+1844) Created page with "[[Translated SLet/3/MihaiEso Again+|Huh?]] 1. Take the shit. <pre> Het Oufu Asian Efuwule Drinking wine e, Het Oufu Asian Efuwule Drinking wine e, CE Het Oufu Asia's First Alphabet Practical Health e Wuanii Wuaiiteenig "Jumuo e - Wuani
13:31:07 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158634&oldid=158633 * Hotcrystal0 * (+184)
13:31:39 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/MihaiEso Again+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158635&oldid=158606 * Hotcrystal0 * (+38)
13:31:49 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/MihaiEso Again+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158636&oldid=158635 * Hotcrystal0 * (-3)
13:31:59 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158637&oldid=158634 * Hotcrystal0 * (-1)
13:32:57 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158638&oldid=158637 * Hotcrystal0 * (+12)
13:34:47 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158639&oldid=158638 * Hotcrystal0 * (+152)
13:35:11 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158640&oldid=158639 * Hotcrystal0 * (+3)
13:36:48 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158641&oldid=158640 * Hotcrystal0 * (+83)
13:37:13 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158642&oldid=158641 * Hotcrystal0 * (+0)
13:38:26 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158643&oldid=158642 * Hotcrystal0 * (+14)
13:39:15 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158644&oldid=158643 * Hotcrystal0 * (-4)
13:42:36 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158645&oldid=158644 * Hotcrystal0 * (+193)
13:43:42 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158646&oldid=158645 * Hotcrystal0 * (+89)
13:44:48 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158647&oldid=158646 * Hotcrystal0 * (+108)
13:45:09 <esolangs> [[``abi2 hB8 7Vi 7iY]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158648&oldid=158594 * PrySigneToFry * (+47)
13:45:30 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158649&oldid=158647 * Hotcrystal0 * (+23)
13:46:21 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158650&oldid=158649 * Hotcrystal0 * (+2)
13:47:35 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158651&oldid=158650 * Hotcrystal0 * (+4)
13:49:15 <esolangs> [[User talk:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158652&oldid=158227 * TenBillionPlusOne * (+162) /* 1000000001 */
13:50:51 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158653&oldid=158651 * Hotcrystal0 * (+218)
13:51:19 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158654&oldid=158653 * Hotcrystal0 * (-1)
13:54:11 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158655&oldid=158654 * Hotcrystal0 * (+14)
13:55:04 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158656&oldid=158655 * Hotcrystal0 * (+17)
14:10:58 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158657&oldid=158656 * Hotcrystal0 * (+347)
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14:39:04 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158658&oldid=158622 * PrySigneToFry * (+101)
14:54:35 <esolangs> [[Atemlanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158659&oldid=158629 * TenBillionPlusOne * (-26) /* New introduction */
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15:18:24 <esolangs> [[Atemlanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158660&oldid=158659 * TenBillionPlusOne * (-127) /* New introduction */
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15:39:00 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158661&oldid=132572 * TenBillionPlusOne * (-3)
15:41:16 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158662&oldid=139071 * TenBillionPlusOne * (-3)
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16:09:22 <esolangs> [[Efghij]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158663&oldid=131571 * BakersDozenBagels * (+587) Update language spec with new features used by PRINGLES
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16:26:38 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158664&oldid=158657 * Hotcrystal0 * (+1)
16:26:56 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158665&oldid=158664 * Hotcrystal0 * (-1) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/158664|158664]] by [[Special:Contributions/Hotcrystal0|Hotcrystal0]] ([[User talk:Hotcrystal0|talk]])
16:31:15 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * NomaniInt64 * New user account
16:36:35 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158666&oldid=158542 * NomaniInt64 * (+233) /* Introductions */
16:38:40 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158667&oldid=158658 * Hotcrystal0 * (+39)
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17:08:19 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158668&oldid=158665 * Hotcrystal0 * (+3)
17:12:50 <esolangs> [[Zaddy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158669&oldid=158576 * Corbin * (+209) /* Constraint Handling Rules */ Add reference. Also, turns out max/3 is best done as a query with gte/2 as a "builtin" Prolog rule.
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17:48:25 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158670&oldid=158668 * Hotcrystal0 * (+13)
17:53:43 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158671&oldid=158670 * Hotcrystal0 * (-354)
17:54:16 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158672&oldid=158671 * Hotcrystal0 * (+605)
17:55:28 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158673&oldid=158672 * Hotcrystal0 * (+0)
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19:28:31 <esolangs> [[ArtState]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158674&oldid=119841 * TenBillionPlusOne * (-3)
19:30:14 <esolangs> [[Bfos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158675&oldid=113885 * TenBillionPlusOne * (+19) Is it a concept or idea?
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19:59:15 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Aadenboy * uploaded "[[File:SmolderNodes101.png]]": The connection graph of [[Smolder]] cells that can be reached from 101.
19:59:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Aadenboy * uploaded "[[File:SmolderNodes202.png]]": The connection graph of [[Smolder]] cells that can be reached from 202.
20:01:46 <esolangs> [[Talk:Smolder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158678&oldid=158217 * Aadenboy * (+468) really interesting revelation
20:03:07 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Aadenboy * uploaded a new version of "[[File:SmolderNodes101.png]]": more compact labels
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20:09:01 <esolangs> [[VTS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=158680 * JORE * (+5372) Created page with "== VTS Programming Language == '''VTS''' is a modification of python. It also makes code harder to read. {| class="wikitable" |+ Command Set |- ! VTS !! Python !! Description |- | <code>n >> x</code> || <code>x=n</code> || Assignment |- | <code>n *> x</code> || <code>x=x*n</c
20:18:39 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158681&oldid=158379 * Tommyaweosme * (+9)
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20:29:22 <Raoof> hi everybody. I think I found something. first a quick question: is the following function primitive recursive ?
20:29:26 <Raoof> pri3 = (f,n,a,b,c) => n?pri3(f,n-1n,a,b,f(a,b,c)):c
20:31:55 <int-e> is n-1n a typo for n-1? anyway, no, even assuming that n,a,b,c are natural numbers, because f is an argument that we know nothing about.
20:33:21 <Raoof> int-e 1n means a BigInt in javascript. assume that f is primitive recursive
20:34:15 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158682&oldid=158681 * Tommyaweosme * (+6) /* ye olde sandbox (ald sand-plega-dm) */
20:36:06 <int-e> Raoof: Then yes, at the face of it at least. Using JS probably opens up some backdoors.
20:37:02 <b_jonas> so this is like n iterations of the function (c -> f(a,b,c)) nested started from c?
20:37:47 <Raoof> b_jonas yes n, a, b,c are natural numbers. yes
20:41:01 <HackEso> 558) <oerjan> <Patashu> But wait what if I'm using a quantum computer <-- there is "quantum entropy". it's the same except no one understands it.
20:42:27 <Raoof> int-e if pri3 is primitive recursive then hyperoperation function is also primitive recursive
20:45:19 <int-e> pri3 itself is *not* primitive recursve
20:45:37 <int-e> pri3(f) is, if f is
20:46:20 <int-e> (for pri3(f) to make sense, assume you had written pri3 = (f) => (n,a,b,c) => ... instead)
20:50:03 <Raoof> int-e is pri3 total ?
20:50:19 <int-e> with the restriction on f? yes
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20:50:47 <int-e> but f isn't a natural number
20:52:08 <APic> int-e: Yes, 15
20:52:42 <int-e> APic: really, all you ever say is hi and cu but *this* is what you intend to engage with :-P
20:53:15 <int-e> minor brain malfunction here
20:54:09 <Raoof> int-e we need a look up table for f to be a natural number
20:55:13 <b_jonas> yeah, int-e is right, running an arbitrary primitive recursive function that you get form input is more powerful than what a primitive recursive function can do
21:04:17 <ais523> I guess most computational classes aren't able to self-interpret – TC is unusual in that respect
21:04:47 <ais523> hmm, can LBAs self-interpret? (assuming that the input to the interpreter is an input + program)
21:05:01 <ais523> ah, no, because the LBA being interpreted might need a constant factor higher than the interpreter has
21:05:37 <ais523> I think any specific factor of LBA might be able to, though?
21:06:04 <Raoof> b_jonas let me show you what I discovered. my guess is that the following four functions are a basis for total computable functions are I use subset of javascript to implement my language
21:06:16 <int-e> yeah you get a weird fixed-parameter class of incomplete self-interpreters
21:06:20 <Raoof> inc = (a) => (a||0n)+1n
21:06:21 <Raoof> dec = (a) => a>0n?(a||0n)-1n:0n
21:06:21 <Raoof> pri = (f,n,...args) => n?pri(f,n-1n,...args.slice(0,args.length-1),f(...args)):args[args.length-1]
21:06:22 <int-e> you can do that for primitive recursion too
21:14:30 <b_jonas> oh no, it's that discussion from way back
21:15:25 <Raoof> b_jonas this time is different. I think I discovered something cool this time :)
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21:19:13 <int-e> You're using JS for this; I imagine it's very easy to accidentally compose these primitives in a way that results in a function that's not primitive recursive because JS has full recursion built in.
21:19:42 -!- Raoof has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:20:32 -!- Raoof has joined.
21:23:41 <Raoof> sorry I have some issues with my internet connection. my point is you can compose 4 total functions and get all other total computable functions. isn't that cool ?
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21:29:12 <b_jonas> Raoof: int-e already pointed out the problem. you have a function pri that calls a function that it gets as argument. if you can pass any function into it then you can easily build a y-combinator construction and get an infine loop, something like function y(a,b,c) { return a(b); }; pri(y,1,y,0,0)
21:31:30 <b_jonas> so there's just no guarantee that pri is total
21:32:31 <int-e> Right, abusing the supposedly natural number arguments (n and all of ...args) to pass in functions will do the trick too.
21:33:00 <b_jonas> the other problem is of course that you still aren't giving us a specific definition of what you're allowed to compose how
21:33:21 <b_jonas> and I'm tired trying to deal with a moving goalpost when you do that
21:36:55 <Raoof> sorry, I thought it is simple enough to be easy to fill the blanks. let me give you a list of functions that I defined using these 4 functions maybe that helps if not I will come up with a blog post or something in the future.
21:37:19 <Raoof> zero = (a) => dec(one(a))
21:37:20 <Raoof> add = (a,b) => pri(inc,a,b)
21:37:20 <Raoof> mul = (a,b) => pri(add,a,b,zero(a))
21:37:21 <Raoof> pow = (a,b) => pri(mul,b,a,one(a))
21:37:21 <Raoof> tsb = (a,b) => pri(dec,b,a)
21:37:35 <Raoof> not = (a) => pow(zero(a),mul(a,a))
21:37:35 <Raoof> two = (a) => inc(one(a))
21:37:36 <Raoof> three = (a) => inc(two(a))
21:37:36 <Raoof> isZero = (a) => not(a)
21:37:37 <Raoof> isNonZero = (a) => isZero(isZero(a))
21:37:37 <Raoof> and = (a,b) => isZero(add(isZero(a),isZero(b)))
21:37:38 <Raoof> or = (a,b) => isZero(mul(a,b))
21:37:38 <Raoof> eq = (a,b) => isZero(add(tsb(a,b),tsb(b,a)))
21:37:39 <Raoof> notEq = (a,b) => not(eq(a,b))
21:37:39 <Raoof> If = (a,b,c) => add(mul(isNonZero(a),b),mul(isZero(a),c))
21:37:40 <Raoof> lte = (a,b) => isZero(tsb(a,b))
21:37:40 <Raoof> lt = (a,b) => If(eq(a,b),zero(a),lte(a,b))
21:37:41 <Raoof> gt = (a,b) => not(lte(a,b))
21:37:41 <Raoof> gte = (a,b) => not(lt(a,b))
21:37:42 <Raoof> min = (a,b) => If(lt(a,b),a,b)
21:37:42 <Raoof> max = (a,b) => If(lt(a,b),b,a)
21:38:11 <Raoof> (eq(n,zero(a)))?inc(b):
21:38:11 <Raoof> (and(eq(n,one(a)),eq(b,zero(a))))?a:
21:38:12 <Raoof> (and(eq(n,two(a)),eq(b,zero(a))))?zero(a):
21:38:12 <Raoof> (and(gt(n,two(a)),eq(b,zero(a))))?one(a):
21:38:13 <Raoof> pri(hyp,one(a),dec(n),a,pri(hyp,one(a),n,a,dec(b)))
21:38:13 <Raoof> ack = (m,n) => m?tsb(hyp(m,two(n),add(n,three(n))),three(n)):inc(n)
21:38:32 <int-e> yeah, hyp uses full recursion; you lose
21:39:36 <int-e> in the pri(f) construction, f must be a previously defined primitive recursive function.
21:39:58 <int-e> this "previously defined" part is usually left out because this is how inductive definitions always work
21:41:42 <Raoof> int-e yes f must be previosuly defined. I don't get what you mean by "you lose", can you write a function that loops ? (I know I haven't clearly specified the grammar of this language )
21:42:21 <int-e> Raoof: `hyp` uses pri(hyp,...) inside its own definition. That's not allowed.
21:42:54 <int-e> it has not been previously defined
21:43:01 <int-e> you're defining it right there
21:43:28 <Raoof> int-e it is a self-referential definition
21:43:34 <int-e> which is not allowed
21:43:43 <int-e> that would be arbitrary recursion
21:44:08 <Raoof> it's not an arbitrary recursion
21:44:36 <int-e> well the thing that matters is that it's not primitive recursion
21:45:50 <Raoof> I don't get why that matters. maybe ais523 can help us here ?
21:45:57 <int-e> The rules are like this; when defining hyp, you can only use functions defined up to the point when you define hyp. That is, zero, add, mul, etc, up to max. But not hyp itself.
21:46:17 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, but you can get a loop even without a function directly referring to itself, I mentioned y = (a,b,c) => a(b); pri(y,1,y,0,0); above.
21:46:19 <int-e> This really is not a difficult rule, and you're violating it.
21:47:03 <int-e> b_jonas: because you're smart and have found another loophole (passing a function where only natural numbers are allowed)
21:47:47 <b_jonas> int-e: what, where does it say that only natural numbers are allowed?
21:48:03 <ais523> I guess one way to think about it is that, if you're trying to implement primitive recursion in particular, you have to obey the rules of primitive recursion – and although it's totally fine to write a programming system which doesn't follow those rules, you end up with a different computational class
21:48:20 <int-e> b_jonas: I mentioned it when you posted that `y` example the first time.
21:48:41 <int-e> b_jonas: The *reference* I'm using isn't this discussion; it's the standard defintion of primitive recursion.
21:49:29 <int-e> Because it's clear from the outset that if Raoof is obtaining arbitrary recursive functions, what they're doing must differ from the standard definition somewhere.
21:50:28 <Raoof> ais523 what is the computational class of the compositions of these 4 functions ?
21:50:56 <b_jonas> Raoof: I still think you haven't told us how you're allowed to compose these
21:51:03 <b_jonas> like what expressions you're allowing
21:51:14 <ais523> Raoof: the question isn't well-defined, especially as the functions take more than one argument
21:51:40 <b_jonas> functions with multiple arguments? that's your excuse? hehehe
21:52:12 <ais523> b_jonas: the composition of f and g is function(x) { return f(g(x)); }
21:52:24 <ais523> but that definition doesn't obviously generalise to multiple arguments
21:52:30 <ais523> (unless you also have multiple return values)
21:52:59 <ais523> although I don't think Raoof meant composition in the mathematical sense, it's still an undefined problem without knowing what sense it was meant in
21:53:11 <b_jonas> ok, so you're also asking what expressions Raoul wants to allow.
21:53:37 <ais523> well, apart from the typoed nickname
21:54:28 <int-e> I have a simpler goal; I'm just chasing the "whatever this is, it's not primitive recursion" point.
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21:56:16 <ais523> int-e: so I think the problem here is that if person A believes "X can't do Y" and person B believes they have disproved it with "Z is an argument that X can do Y", that although person A can state "because X can't do Y, Z must be wrong" this argument will not be convincing to person B, even if it's correct
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21:57:19 <int-e> ais523: Well I did pinpoint the place where Raoof's construction deviated from primitive recursion.
21:58:07 <int-e> I tried to explain... not sure whether I managed because there is no good reason other than that the definition doesn't work that way.
22:04:24 <ais523> primitive recursion is much easier to understand if you view it as iteration, IMO
22:05:23 <int-e> Are we doing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlooP_and_FlooP now?
22:05:34 <b_jonas> ais523: do you mean for loop iterations with mutable variables that you can write repeatedly in a loop, as in the (0) language?
22:05:36 <int-e> (what a horrible syntax, I mean SYNTAX)
22:05:59 <ais523> b_jonas: I was thinking along the lines of BLooP
22:05:59 <b_jonas> int-e: is (0)'s syntax saner?
22:06:11 <int-e> b_jonas: do I dare to look?
22:06:31 <b_jonas> ok, it's probably not a good question
22:06:39 <b_jonas> I don't think anyone cares about (0)'s concrete syntax
22:07:04 <Raoof> ais523 these 3+1 functions are analogous to instruction for a Register machine
22:08:21 <b_jonas> and there are parts of the syntax that I'm not even sure how they work but it doesn't really matter
22:09:01 <ais523> b_jonas: that sounds like a good property for an esolang to have
22:09:36 <ais523> I feel like INTERCAL aims to evoke it
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22:10:02 <b_jonas> ais523: as far as I understand Bloop also has mutable variables; the main difference is that (0) has user-defined functions and local variables for them, which matters because of how (1) is defined as a modification of (0)
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22:10:55 <ais523> (INTERCAL-72 intentionally doesn't have operator precedence – C-INTERCAL and CLC-INTERCAL both have something that exists in that space that triggers if you write an expression with insufficient spark/ears, but is hard to understand and doesn't behave like traditional operator precedence)
22:11:26 <ais523> primitive recursive languages based on iteration can't allow you to modify the loop counter (unless doing so doesn't change or reduces the number of loop iterations)
22:11:26 <b_jonas> ais523: kind of, but INTERCAL also comes with some esotericness in its concrete syntax, especially in how a comment ends with DO or PLEASE anywhere in it
22:12:10 <ais523> INTERCAL doesn't have comments, it just has a) syntax errors that don't happen until runtime and b) a range of ways to prevent a statement executing even if it's in the path of execution
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22:12:32 <ais523> but the way statements are delimited is very esoteric and not fully understodo
22:13:03 <ais523> the usual rule is "they start with DO or PLEASE" but there are exceptions which I don't fully understand and probably aren't consistent between compilers
22:13:31 <ais523> in particular the command READ OUT can be spelled without whitespace but despite READOUT having "DO" in the middle it doesn't usually start a new statement
22:14:08 <ais523> I think C-INTERCAL doesn't lex DO inside READOUT in much the same way that C doesn't lex > inside >>
22:15:00 <int-e> hah, imagine READONTUT
22:15:07 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, the post that defines (0) covers that, the loop counter variable is essentially just a copy of the hidden loop counter that's incremented in every iteration, so you can modify it but that won't make the loop run more times
22:15:11 <ais523> int-e: DON'T has an apostrophe in
22:15:26 <ais523> (which is comparable to writing a keyword in C that contains a parenthesis)
22:16:02 <int-e> ais523: I forgot how INTERCAL does this.
22:16:23 <int-e> I also kind of wanted to spell it as READONUT
22:16:27 <ais523> PLEASEN'T is also acceptable as a synonym I think (although INTERCAL compilers have generally collectively agreed to never use it)
22:17:02 <ais523> err, INTERCAL programmers, not compilers
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22:19:43 <ais523> at least one person has interpreted INTERCAL's spec as whitespace being completely irrelevant, so you can put it even inside keywords, literals, etc.
22:20:54 <b_jonas> IIRC two things that the writeup about (0) doesn't define is the order of evaluation when there are multiple function calls that don't depend on each other's result, and if your implementation makes the order variable you could sneak in additional power there; and what happens if you try to break a loop in a lower stack frame
22:21:21 <ais523> INTERCAL-72 is known to allow '. to be written as ! (i.e. superimposing the two adjacent characters) which is a form of whitespace change, I guess
22:21:29 <b_jonas> ais523: I also interpreted INTERCAL as whitespace being irrelevant so you can even put space inside keywords
22:21:51 <HackEso> [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE] [U+1F430 RABBIT FACE]
22:22:33 <ais523> the original manual mentioned superimposing " and . into a rabbit face, but there was no way to encode it until Unicode added one
22:24:49 <ais523> (also noteworthy: BMI2 adding hardware support for INTERCAL's select operator to x86 and x86-64; C-INTERCAL, of course, detects this in the configure script rather than using cpuid at runtime like you're supposed to)
22:45:56 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158683&oldid=158602 * Buckets * (+14)
22:48:03 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158684&oldid=158537 * Buckets * (+99)
22:48:15 <esolangs> [[Imitate]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=158685 * Buckets * (+3338) Created page with "Imitate is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2019, 2021 and 2022, All very Different from each other, Sharing the Same Name. == Imitate (2019) == On December 29th, 2019, [[User:Buckets]] Created the First Instance of Imitate, for the Purp
22:48:47 <esolangs> [[Imitate]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158686&oldid=158685 * Buckets * (+36)
22:50:12 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=158687&oldid=158684 * Buckets * (+30)
23:00:29 <zzo38> That isn't the rabbit of INTERCAL though; it is the rabbit face emoji, which is difference
23:02:40 <zzo38> There is a way to encode the INTERCAL one though, but not in Unicode. It can be encoded in ASCII by using a backspace in between, or if another character set is made up, which can support it better.
23:03:28 <zzo38> Also, I think the use of DO that will end comment might be, that a program Knuth wrote mentions a 5-bit teleprinter code, which I think means Baudot code but they did not call it that because of the use of DO in INTERCAL.
23:05:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think these are supposed to be on 12-column punch cards, and you overlay two characters by punching them into the same column
23:06:45 <b_jonas> which means you may need to read it with a card reader that can encode those specific overlayed characters to EBCDIC in a way that doesn't conflict with other characters used in INTERCAL
23:08:43 <zzo38> Then it can be encoded using punch card codes, is another way (and, would probably be the "proper" way, if it was designed for such a thing). If a way to use a card reader to encode them in EBCDIC in a way that does not conflict with the other characters, that will help with using with computers with 8-bit bytes like most computers do now.
23:19:07 <zzo38> Although, I think CLC-INTERCAL already has its own variant of EBCDIC anyways (which uses ASCII control codes rather than EBCDIC control codes)
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23:24:21 <b_jonas> how do control codes come up? they shouldn't occur in an intercal program
23:25:20 <zzo38> Carriage return and line feed can occur, I think
23:27:44 <ais523> in the original INTERCAL-72 carriage return wasn't possible, space was represented by literally changing which columns you punched out, and "newline" was a change from one punch card to then ext
23:29:35 <zzo38> Yes, for the INTERCAL-72 character set you would be correct, but CLC-INTERCAL character set has carriage return and line feed control codes.
23:36:54 <b_jonas> yeah, the cards are fixed 80 character length, so you read them to a fixed width record format file, there's no line feeds or carraige returns,
23:40:00 <b_jonas> space exists, but I don't think it counts as a control character.